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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: Maroon Manc on October 12, 2017, 11:40:59 AM

Title: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Maroon Manc on October 12, 2017, 11:40:59 AM
Someone was telling me the 2 people who've objected to the proposed data centre don't even life in Galway, anyone know if that is the case?
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Geoff Tipps on October 12, 2017, 11:56:01 AM
Yes I believe that's true.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: mick999 on October 12, 2017, 12:11:29 PM
One of the objectors was from Wicklow, was was involved in data centres elsewhere.
The court of appeal rejected his objection
http://www.datacenterdynamics.com/content-tracks/design-build/developer-proposes-off-grid-irish-data-center/96787.fullarticle

http://www.businessinsider.de/there-are-now-only-2-people-opposing-apples-irish-data-centre-in-court-2017-2?r=UK&IR=T

https://news.vice.com/story/one-man-in-a-tiny-irish-town-could-derail-apples-plans-for-europe

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/apple-remains-stuck-in-mud-in-fields-of-athenry-1.2845918
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: mick999 on October 12, 2017, 12:16:19 PM
I see that it got the OK today :

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/apple-given-go-ahead-to-build-850m-data-centre-in-athenry-1.3253502
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: mouview on October 12, 2017, 04:36:40 PM
There were 3 objectors originally AFAIK. The Wicklow one was thrown out, basically because it was none of his business. Of the other 2, one is a local solicitor and the other is originally American, married locally, again AFAIK. Unsure if they have grounds for further appeal.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Rossfan on October 12, 2017, 05:13:43 PM
And if they have kids they'd probably be the first to complain that "there's no jobs round here for the young people. What's the Government doing about it? ".
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Eamonnca1 on October 12, 2017, 05:26:41 PM
So three people and a dog were able to block a major project. Like I said, the NIMBY lobby is too powerful. It's time to clip their wings.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Boycey on October 12, 2017, 05:36:49 PM
Admittedly I only speed read those links in mick999’s post but it came across to me especially in the news.vice one that there was someone in what the American guy was saying?
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Syferus on October 12, 2017, 06:18:50 PM
The Vice article makes Coillte forestry seem like it’s a setting ripped from Princess Mononoke. Anyone who actually knows what they like wouldn’t have typed that with a straight face.

The American opposed the data center Amazon are building too, crank would be the correct word for him alright and it’s no surprise the locals in Athenry turned against him.

Good for everyone that this shíte is done and some jobs can be created in the West.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: heganboy on October 12, 2017, 07:11:37 PM
And if they have kids they'd probably be the first to complain that "there's no jobs round here for the young people. What's the Government doing about it? ".

Rossfan,
data centers, aren't great job creators, you get security guards, maybe. A few construction jobs while she's going up...
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: AZOffaly on October 12, 2017, 07:31:17 PM
Ah now, it depends on what sort of Data Centre it is, and how many servers and what types. You'll need Server engineers, networks guys, maintenance guys, etc etc. I saw an article that said data centres would employ between 100 and 300 people depending on size. That's not bad for Athenry.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: heganboy on October 12, 2017, 07:36:08 PM
this is a single use data center- more like 30-40
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Rossfan on October 12, 2017, 08:01:20 PM
And if they have kids they'd probably be the first to complain that "there's no jobs round here for the young people. What's the Government doing about it? ".

Rossfan,
data centers, aren't great job creators, you get security guards, maybe. A few construction jobs while she's going up...
They were saying 100 on the News.
However will anyone else be bothered choosing Ireland when this type of delay is caused.
The Danish one planned at the same stage is now built.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Aaron Boone on October 12, 2017, 08:12:47 PM
There was still a fast-tracking of sorts to get to the court decision today. Back in the day, the M50 extension was held up by Carrickmines Castle protestors for years.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Dougal Maguire on October 12, 2017, 08:13:46 PM
So three people and a dog were able to block a major project. Like I said, the NIMBY lobby is too powerful. It's time to clip their wings.
NIMBY??  Jaysus you'd have a hell of a back yard if it stretched from Wicklow to Athenry!! It's too easy for cranks to halt progress.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Syferus on October 12, 2017, 08:37:17 PM
And if they have kids they'd probably be the first to complain that "there's no jobs round here for the young people. What's the Government doing about it? ".

Rossfan,
data centers, aren't great job creators, you get security guards, maybe. A few construction jobs while she's going up...
They were saying 100 on the News.
However will anyone else be bothered choosing Ireland when this type of delay is caused.
The Danish one planned at the same stage is now built.

It's closer to 150 permanent, 300 for the construction. Data centers don't run themselves so it's very simplistic to think security guards are all you need.

Anyone complaining or trying to diminish it really doesn't get how important this can be to a town the size of Athenry.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: manfromdelmonte on October 12, 2017, 09:57:11 PM
There was still a fast-tracking of sorts to get to the court decision today. Back in the day, the M50 extension was held up by Carrickmines Castle protestors for years.
that carrickmines thing was so dodgy

see the retail centre now built there. who was behind the group who bought the land? Then got a junction put there for no reason

corruption
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Owen Brannigan on October 12, 2017, 10:23:12 PM
Microsoft has agreed to buy all the electricity produced for the next 15 years by the 37 megawatt Tullahennel wind farm being built by GE in County Kerry to power its new server farms.  These things can consume more power than small towns.

Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: armaghniac on October 12, 2017, 10:38:12 PM
What is happening the heat from this place? Is it being used for greenhouses or something?
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: OgraAnDun on October 12, 2017, 11:03:18 PM
What is happening the heat from this place? Is it being used for greenhouses or something?

Athenry will be Ireland’s first winter holiday destination. Or just Ireland’s first warm weather holiday destination.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: rosnarun on October 13, 2017, 10:22:35 AM
So three people and a dog were able to block a major project. Like I said, the NIMBY lobby is too powerful. It's time to clip their wings.
NIMBY??  Jaysus you'd have a hell of a back yard if it stretched from Wicklow to Athenry!! It's too easy for cranks to halt progress.
I think a better term for these sort are BANANAs = Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone

abd don't bank on it being over yet.
until costs are awarded in some measure against objectors this will run and run
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Owen Brannigan on October 13, 2017, 10:31:06 AM
So three people and a dog were able to block a major project. Like I said, the NIMBY lobby is too powerful. It's time to clip their wings.
NIMBY??  Jaysus you'd have a hell of a back yard if it stretched from Wicklow to Athenry!! It's too easy for cranks to halt progress.
I think a better term for these sort are BANANAs = Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone

abd don't bank on it being over yet.
until costs are awarded in some measure against objectors this will run and run

Much the same as the recent case and appeal taken against the building of the A6 near Toome.  No costs against objector but the cost to the public purse was £8,000,000.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: magpie seanie on October 13, 2017, 01:04:11 PM
Should have built it somewhere there wasn't already full employment.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Tony Baloney on October 13, 2017, 01:46:31 PM
So three people and a dog were able to block a major project. Like I said, the NIMBY lobby is too powerful. It's time to clip their wings.
NIMBY??  Jaysus you'd have a hell of a back yard if it stretched from Wicklow to Athenry!! It's too easy for cranks to halt progress.
I think a better term for these sort are BANANAs = Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone

abd don't bank on it being over yet.
until costs are awarded in some measure against objectors this will run and run

Much the same as the recent case and appeal taken against the building of the A6 near Toome.  No costs against objector but the cost to the public purse was £8,000,000.
The man in the street shouldn't be prevented from taking on large corporations/government due to cost otherwise they'd do what they want. Nor should the be allowed to use large amounts of public money for nefarious reasons. Surely these cases are judged on their merits and only proceed if warranted. Objections on the basis of swans nesting etc. should be thrown in the bin.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Franko on October 13, 2017, 01:50:42 PM
So three people and a dog were able to block a major project. Like I said, the NIMBY lobby is too powerful. It's time to clip their wings.
NIMBY??  Jaysus you'd have a hell of a back yard if it stretched from Wicklow to Athenry!! It's too easy for cranks to halt progress.
I think a better term for these sort are BANANAs = Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone

abd don't bank on it being over yet.
until costs are awarded in some measure against objectors this will run and run

Much the same as the recent case and appeal taken against the building of the A6 near Toome.  No costs against objector but the cost to the public purse was £8,000,000.
The man in the street shouldn't be prevented from taking on large corporations/government due to cost otherwise they'd do what they want. Nor should the be allowed to use large amounts of public money for nefarious reasons. Surely these cases are judged on their merits and only proceed if warranted. Objections on the basis of swans nesting etc. should be thrown in the bin.

+1

There's a bit of NIMBY in all of us... it's just that most are lucky to avoid situations where we need to show it.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on October 13, 2017, 01:59:57 PM
The Apple data centre reminds me of an Elvis Costello song called shipbuilding. The jobs are needed but the system they are part of sucks. 

https://youtu.be/esjrHxpiet0
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: rosnarun on October 13, 2017, 02:32:06 PM
So three people and a dog were able to block a major project. Like I said, the NIMBY lobby is too powerful. It's time to clip their wings.
NIMBY??  Jaysus you'd have a hell of a back yard if it stretched from Wicklow to Athenry!! It's too easy for cranks to halt progress.
I think a better term for these sort are BANANAs = Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone

abd don't bank on it being over yet.
until costs are awarded in some measure against objectors this will run and run

Much the same as the recent case and appeal taken against the building of the A6 near Toome.  No costs against objector but the cost to the public purse was £8,000,000.
The man in the street shouldn't be prevented from taking on large corporations/government due to cost otherwise they'd do what they want. Nor should the be allowed to use large amounts of public money for nefarious reasons. Surely these cases are judged on their merits and only proceed if warranted. Objections on the basis of swans nesting etc. should be thrown in the bin.

 and that's why I said 'some measure' . enough to hurt if the court finds it without foundation but not enough to bankrupt someone out for the public good.
some supreme cases use this measure . if its genuinely taken to siolve a point of law usually no costs are awarded but if it a nuisance case they are.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Tony Baloney on October 13, 2017, 05:01:24 PM
So three people and a dog were able to block a major project. Like I said, the NIMBY lobby is too powerful. It's time to clip their wings.
NIMBY??  Jaysus you'd have a hell of a back yard if it stretched from Wicklow to Athenry!! It's too easy for cranks to halt progress.
I think a better term for these sort are BANANAs = Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone

abd don't bank on it being over yet.
until costs are awarded in some measure against objectors this will run and run

Much the same as the recent case and appeal taken against the building of the A6 near Toome.  No costs against objector but the cost to the public purse was £8,000,000.
The man in the street shouldn't be prevented from taking on large corporations/government due to cost otherwise they'd do what they want. Nor should the be allowed to use large amounts of public money for nefarious reasons. Surely these cases are judged on their merits and only proceed if warranted. Objections on the basis of swans nesting etc. should be thrown in the bin.

 and that's why I said 'some measure' . enough to hurt if the court finds it without foundation but not enough to bankrupt someone out for the public good.
some supreme cases use this measure . if its genuinely taken to siolve a point of law usually no costs are awarded but if it a nuisance case they are.
I think that's fair enough as every crank in the land shouldn't be able to take arbitrary grudges to court but the right of you and I to take on some bollox with plenty of money should be protected.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Eamonnca1 on October 13, 2017, 06:10:13 PM
If I had my way then the only way a private individual could block something like this would be if they gather 200 signatures within a fortnight of the announcement of the plan and each one of them has to be able to show how they're affected. If the names and addresses are then verified by the planning agency and they're satisfied that everyone on the list is affected, only then can the court look into blocking it, but if not, the plan goes ahead. I'm all in favour of letting the public have their say, but it can't be so easy that one or two people can block a project like this.

Environmental impacts are another matter, you have to keep an eye on that sort of thing because natural habitats are still important.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: manfromdelmonte on October 13, 2017, 06:16:10 PM
If I had my way then the only way a private individual could block something like this would be if they gather 200 signatures within a fortnight of the announcement of the plan and each one of them has to be able to show how they're affected. If the names and addresses are then verified by the planning agency and they're satisfied that everyone on the list is affected, only then can the court look into blocking it, but if not, the plan goes ahead. I'm all in favour of letting the public have their say, but it can't be so easy that one or two people can block a project like this.

Environmental impacts are another matter, you have to keep an eye on that sort of thing because natural habitats are still important.
the visual environment is also important

this will basically be a huge shed consuming a huge amount of electricity
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Franko on October 14, 2017, 12:11:35 AM
If I had my way then the only way a private individual could block something like this would be if they gather 200 signatures within a fortnight of the announcement of the plan and each one of them has to be able to show how they're affected. If the names and addresses are then verified by the planning agency and they're satisfied that everyone on the list is affected, only then can the court look into blocking it, but if not, the plan goes ahead. I'm all in favour of letting the public have their say, but it can't be so easy that one or two people can block a project like this.

Environmental impacts are another matter, you have to keep an eye on that sort of thing because natural habitats are still important.

Tripe.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: hardstation on October 14, 2017, 12:21:14 AM
Without knowing anything about this, these people are holding out for big money and are anti-modern technology anyway. They should bulldoze all their houses and build a Tesco, not before letting drug dealers hang about though.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Tony Baloney on October 14, 2017, 12:29:26 AM
Without knowing anything about this, these people are holding out for big money and are anti-modern technology anyway. They should bulldoze all their houses and build a Tesco, not before letting drug dealers hang about though.
Now yer talking. Tescos @Owenvarragh.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Owen Brannigan on November 05, 2017, 09:06:39 PM
Looks like the Nimby attitude has scuppered this major investment of €850m:

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/apples-850m-data-centre-in-major-doubt-after-meeting-between-cook-and-varadkar-36286739.html (https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/apples-850m-data-centre-in-major-doubt-after-meeting-between-cook-and-varadkar-36286739.html)
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: armaghniac on November 05, 2017, 09:43:17 PM
You'll always have NIMBYs and planning has to be investigated. It is  justice delayed is justice denied, this idea that you schedule something in court in 6 months or a years time. They'll complain about NIMBYs but they won't do the obvious and speed up the courts.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Avondhu star on November 05, 2017, 10:13:10 PM
The politicians who claim to be in favour of development at national level are the very ones who back the nimbus. Ross and Varadkar come to mind
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Syferus on November 05, 2017, 10:15:28 PM
Apple will get some manner of kickback or concession by sabre-rattling and it will go ahead. Cook's wheelhouse is operations - this is where he's most comfortable and knows when to press an advantage. With the on-going tax case it's in Apple's interests to remain cosy with the Irish government.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: heganboy on November 06, 2017, 03:31:15 AM
minimal economic impact to Ireland, only intelligent in the context of continued apple (actual employment) investment
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: omochain on November 06, 2017, 03:46:44 AM
Now you are getting it ;)
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on November 06, 2017, 08:48:55 AM
In a few years Apple and FB and Google will be broken up. They are monopolies that do very little for society.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Syferus on November 06, 2017, 09:26:26 AM
In a few years Apple and FB and Google will be broken up. They are monopolies that do very little for society.

No, they won't.

You've combined three companies there that are very different. Apple have little interest in collecting personal data, as opposed to the other two whose business models is based around scraping data. Apple make their money almost entirely by selling consumer goods.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on November 06, 2017, 11:29:58 AM
In a few years Apple and FB and Google will be broken up. They are monopolies that do very little for society.

No, they won't.

You've combined three companies there that are very different. Apple have little interest in collecting personal data, as opposed to the other two whose business models is based around scraping data. Apple make their money almost entirely by selling consumer goods.
Anti trust is the next stage of capitalism. Monopoly break up. Standard Oil was broken into 34 companies. JP Morgan was broken up
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: theskull1 on November 06, 2017, 11:51:42 AM
Good podcast which speaks about this monopolization

http://freakonomics.com/podcast/thinking-expensive-who-pay/ (http://freakonomics.com/podcast/thinking-expensive-who-pay/)
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Denn Forever on November 06, 2017, 12:28:02 PM
Building a stateof the art facility?  Plenty of state of the art facilities lying vacant in Kildare,  County Galwat and Dublin.  We need another white elephant.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: magpie seanie on November 06, 2017, 12:35:34 PM
Building a stateof the art facility?  Plenty of state of the art facilities lying vacant in Kildare,  County Galwat and Dublin.  We need another white elephant.


It should be built somewhere that the jobs are needed like Sligo or Donegal.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Syferus on November 06, 2017, 01:09:11 PM
In a few years Apple and FB and Google will be broken up. They are monopolies that do very little for society.

No, they won't.

You've combined three companies there that are very different. Apple have little interest in collecting personal data, as opposed to the other two whose business models is based around scraping data. Apple make their money almost entirely by selling consumer goods.
Anti trust is the next stage of capitalism. Monopoly break up. Standard Oil was broken into 34 companies. JP Morgan was broken up

Apple have 30% or so of the US smartphone market while Android has 65% - there is no monopoly, but obviously you didn't check your facts on this one.

Apple make the most profit because their marketing, operations and, generally, the end products are so good.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: armaghniac on November 06, 2017, 01:31:47 PM
Building a stateof the art facility?  Plenty of state of the art facilities lying vacant in Kildare,  County Galwat and Dublin.  We need another white elephant.

Examples? Why are they empty?
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Denn Forever on November 06, 2017, 01:50:30 PM
Kildare HP

Co. Dublin Gateway, Swords - Motorolo, Madge

What could they be used for?  Indoor karting?
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: armaghniac on November 06, 2017, 02:16:06 PM
Kildare HP

Co. Dublin Gateway, Swords - Motorolo, Madge

What could they be used for?  Indoor karting?

I don't see how Gateway can be state of the art since it closed 15 years ago.
The others may not be suitable for data centres.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on November 06, 2017, 02:24:37 PM
15 Per cent tax is a scam. Apple don't even pay it. Apple use Ireland for tax washing. I have a camera battery charger by Hähnel. Produced by Hähnel Ireland. How many employees?
None of the mncs chipped in when FF ran the country into the ground.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: magpie seanie on November 06, 2017, 03:47:58 PM
15 Per cent tax is a scam. Apple don't even pay it. Apple use Ireland for tax washing. I have a camera battery charger by Hähnel. Produced by Hähnel Ireland. How many employees?
None of the mncs chipped in when FF ran the country into the ground.


Seafoid - you are of course correct but lets face it - this is the economic model we have chosen and have done nothing to evolve or move on from it. If/when it ceases to work for us we are screwed but when you're a prostitute you can't really complain about the sex part.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on November 06, 2017, 04:30:27 PM
15 Per cent tax is a scam. Apple don't even pay it. Apple use Ireland for tax washing. I have a camera battery charger by Hähnel. Produced by Hähnel Ireland. How many employees?
None of the mncs chipped in when FF ran the country into the ground.


Seafoid - you are of course correct but lets face it - this is the economic model we have chosen and have done nothing to evolve or move on from it. If/when it ceases to work for us we are screwed but when you're a prostitute you can't really complain about the sex part.
We are screwed anyway Seanie. Pensions will be wiped out unless the system is changed. If Davitt could do it over a century ago it can be done again.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Syferus on November 06, 2017, 05:02:57 PM
We're doing just fine.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 06, 2017, 06:53:37 PM


Apple have 30% or so of the US smartphone market while Android has 65% - there is no monopoly, but obviously you didn't check your facts on this one.


Depending on your jurisdiction a monopoly is usually regarded as anyone with over 25% of market share. It's not illegal to have a monopoly, but it is illegal to abuse it.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on November 06, 2017, 07:23:24 PM


Apple have 30% or so of the US smartphone market while Android has 65% - there is no monopoly, but obviously you didn't check your facts on this one.


Depending on your jurisdiction a monopoly is usually regarded as anyone with over 25% of market share. It's not illegal to have a monopoly, but it is illegal to abuse it.
Apple makes something like 80 per cent of profits in the mobile market. That is Monopoly power.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: thebigfella on November 06, 2017, 07:34:20 PM


Apple have 30% or so of the US smartphone market while Android has 65% - there is no monopoly, but obviously you didn't check your facts on this one.


Depending on your jurisdiction a monopoly is usually regarded as anyone with over 25% of market share. It's not illegal to have a monopoly, but it is illegal to abuse it.
Apple makes something like 80 per cent of profits in the mobile market. That is Monopoly power.

Apple make high end consumer mobile products. Consumers choose to purchase them, there is plenty of competing companies in the space offering same products and at lower prices. I don’t think you understand the definition of a monopoly if you are using the above as an example.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Owen Brannigan on November 06, 2017, 08:35:54 PM
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/why-data-centers-fail-to-bring-new-jobs-to-small-towns/ (https://www.techrepublic.com/article/why-data-centers-fail-to-bring-new-jobs-to-small-towns/)
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Syferus on November 06, 2017, 08:43:11 PM
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/why-data-centers-fail-to-bring-new-jobs-to-small-towns/ (https://www.techrepublic.com/article/why-data-centers-fail-to-bring-new-jobs-to-small-towns/)

I don’t think people understand that even 50 jobs is massive to a town the size of Athenry. And a bunch of them are quite well paid jobs at that.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on November 07, 2017, 04:24:42 AM
We're doing just fine.

Roscommon football is a victim of the economic model. Roscommon never benefits from plutocracy because it doesn't have any ski resorts and it is largely rural.


https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/06/bernie-sanders-paradise-papers-leak-international-oligarchy

The major issue of our time is the rapid movement toward international oligarchy in which a handful of billionaires own and control a significant part of the global economy. The Paradise Papers shows how these billionaires and multinational corporations get richer by hiding their wealth and profits and avoid paying their fair share of taxes,” the US senator from Vermont said.

Sanders, who came in a close second to Hillary Clinton in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination last year, pointed the finger of blame for the flourishing of offshore holdings on both Congress and the Trump administration. He told the Guardian that Republicans in Congress were responsible for providing “even more tax breaks to profitable corporations like Apple and Nike”."
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on November 07, 2017, 04:32:08 AM


   https://www.ft.com/content/3327c766-c325-11e7-b2bb-322b2cb39656

   Apple advisers at US law firm Baker Mackenzie approached Appleby, the offshore law firm at the heart of the Paradise Papers leak, in 2014 about available tax structures in the Cayman Islands, the British Virgin Islands, Bermuda, the Isle of Man, Guernsey and Jersey, according to the ICIJ.

One of the emails from Baker Mackenzie to Appleby, released by the ICIJ, stated: “Confirm that an Irish company can conduct management activities . . . without being subject to taxation in your jurisdiction.”

The ICIJ said Apple eventually “settled on Jersey . . . [which was to] play a significant role in Apple’s newly configured Irish tax structure set up in late 2014”.

“Under this arrangement, the MacBook-maker has continued to enjoy ultra-low tax rates on most of its profits and now holds much of its non-US earnings in a $252bn mountain of cash offshore,” it added.




A subsidiary, Apple Operations Europe, became resident in Ireland, the ICIJ reported.

Tax experts said it was likely that Apple was taking advantage of the increased generosity of Ireland’s tax deductions for intellectual property such as patents and trademarks. They cited as evidence the sudden appearance of close to $270bn of intangible assets in Ireland’s national accounts.


A law professor told the ICIJ that any income that Apple now generated in Ireland “could be partially offset by more than $13bn in tax deductions each year for 15 years”.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 08:37:19 AM
15 Per cent tax is a scam. Apple don't even pay it. Apple use Ireland for tax washing. I have a camera battery charger by Hähnel. Produced by Hähnel Ireland. How many employees?
None of the mncs chipped in when FF ran the country into the ground.


Seafoid - you are of course correct but lets face it - this is the economic model we have chosen and have done nothing to evolve or move on from it. If/when it ceases to work for us we are screwed but when you're a prostitute you can't really complain about the sex part.
We are screwed anyway Seanie. Pensions will be wiped out unless the system is changed. If Davitt could do it over a century ago it can be done again.


I think if we are courageous, proactive and have a vision for the future we can wean ourselves off the American tit (pun intended) and migrate to a more sustainable, less volatile economic model. It will take time though and I'm not sure how much of that we have. I also realise that courage, proactivity and vision are in short supply though but I'm an optimist at heart.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Rossfan on November 07, 2017, 09:15:57 AM
If our leaders had any courage proactively or vision we wouldn't have 8,500 people living in hotels or B&Bs. We wouldn't have thousands of young couples unable to buy houses as builders wait for the next artificial property boom and NAMA sits on thousands of acres of land.
We wouldn't have some of the highest rents in Europe in the empties the State in West Europe.
We wouldn't have greater Dublin choked up with traffic and over development while hundreds of country towns and rural areas are virtually dead.
We'd have good broadband all over the Country.

We may have had no money in the 30s or 50s but we cleared slums, set up Bord na Móna,  ESB,  rural electrification etc etc because someone had vision, proactivity and courage.
All we get now are shiny brochures, action plans but little action,  PR spin etc etc.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 09:32:34 AM
Agree 100%. I think up to the 70's the fate of the people was actually prioritised by most politicians. Then we started getting lazy, corrupt and "cute".
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on November 07, 2017, 09:33:26 AM
If our leaders had any courage proactively or vision we wouldn't have 8,500 people living in hotels or B&Bs. We wouldn't have thousands of young couples unable to buy houses as builders wait for the next artificial property boom and NAMA sits on thousands of acres of land.
We wouldn't have some of the highest rents in Europe in the empties the State in West Europe.
We wouldn't have greater Dublin choked up with traffic and over development while hundreds of country towns and rural areas are virtually dead.
We'd have good broadband all over the Country.

We may have had no money in the 30s or 50s but we cleared slums, set up Bord na Móna,  ESB,  rural electrification etc etc because someone had vision, proactivity and courage.
All we get now are shiny brochures, action plans but little action,  PR spin etc etc.
We would have jobs where people want to live.
Our pension funds wouldn't be speculation vehicles
The economy would work for people.
We wouldn't be part of a so called monetary union without a lender of last resort.
It's not that hard.

After the next crash it wil probably happen anyway. But it would be better to avoid the crash.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on November 07, 2017, 09:35:47 AM
Agree 100%. I think up to the 70's the fate of the people was actually prioritised by most politicians. Then we started getting lazy, corrupt and "cute".
That was a different economic system where the goal was full employment.
Under the current system the goal is 2% inflation. There is a huge difference.
There is no systematic social housing building under the current system.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: armaghniac on November 07, 2017, 11:52:46 AM
That was a different economic system where the goal was full employment.
Under the current system the goal is 2% inflation. There is a huge difference.
There is no systematic social housing building under the current system.

In those days there were no jobs. Now there are jobs, so some things are done better and many countries would envy this.

But there is no effort to plan for the future, in the 2009-2014 period there was no money to do things, but there was an opportunity to catch up on the planning side of things but nothing whatsoever was done. A good example is the M50, this was equipped in 2009 with gantrys for variable speed limits and possible tolling throughout. But when traffic increased they announced a "feasibility study" on these things, when of course the period from 2009 should have been used for the plan to be ready to go when the traffic increased.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on November 07, 2017, 01:08:29 PM
That was a different economic system where the goal was full employment.
Under the current system the goal is 2% inflation. There is a huge difference.
There is no systematic social housing building under the current system.

In those days there were no jobs. Now there are jobs, so some things are done better and many countries would envy this.

But there is no effort to plan for the future, in the 2009-2014 period there was no money to do things, but there was an opportunity to catch up on the planning side of things but nothing whatsoever was done. A good example is the M50, this was equipped in 2009 with gantrys for variable speed limits and possible tolling throughout. But when traffic increased they announced a "feasibility study" on these things, when of course the period from 2009 should have been used for the plan to be ready to go when the traffic increased.
There were loads of jobs in the 60s and early 70's.  Since then there has been an improvement in the quality of the workforce. But why did so many people in their 20s have to emigrate after the crash? Why do younger workers get paid less? Why did Anglo.cost €60bn.  Because the economic system is unstable. It is unregulated. That is by design.
If we had a system focused on people it would be very different.

https://www.icij.org/investigations/paradise-papers/apples-secret-offshore-island-hop-revealed-by-paradise-papers-leak-icij/

"The question is whether the Irish economy has become so distorted by its tax regime that nobody knows what is happening on the ground. ... 'We now have an economy so intertwined in international tax and accounting stunts that they bring with them a serious risk.' He said the next reclassification could see an equally dramatic drop in activity.  "
 FT:

"Tax experts said it was likely that Apple was taking advantage of the increased generosity of Ireland’s tax deductions for intellectual property such as patents and trademarks. They cited as evidence the sudden appearance of close to $270bn of intangible assets in Ireland’s national accounts."

It really belongs in the WTF thread.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on November 07, 2017, 01:28:09 PM

   https://www.ft.com/content/917bc018-c34a-11e7-b2bb-322b2cb39656

   Margrethe Vestager has hit out at technology companies for undermining democracy and allowing “fear” and “greed” to drive anti-competitive behaviour, in some of her strongest criticisms of the industry since taking over as EU competition commissioner.

Ms Vestager singled out Google, Facebook and Apple, saying they cut corners and distort competition by abusing their market dominance.

Speaking at a conference in Lisbon, she added that Europe was “different” from the US in recognising the limitations of free markets.


“We want free markets but we understand the paradox of free markets which is that sometimes we have to intervene. We have to believe that it’s not the law of the jungle but the law of democracy that works.”

The comments mark a step-up in rhetoric from Ms Vestager following a crackdown in Brussels against corporate tax avoidance.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Hound on November 07, 2017, 03:43:20 PM
"The question is whether the Irish economy has become so distorted by its tax regime that nobody knows what is happening on the ground. ... 'We now have an economy so intertwined in international tax and accounting stunts that they bring with them a serious risk.' He said the next reclassification could see an equally dramatic drop in activity.  "
 FT:

"Tax experts said it was likely that Apple was taking advantage of the increased generosity of Ireland’s tax deductions for intellectual property such as patents and trademarks. They cited as evidence the sudden appearance of close to $270bn of intangible assets in Ireland’s national accounts."

It really belongs in the WTF thread.

But if a company buys a big asset for use in their trade, to drive profits in their trade, do you not think they should get a tax deduction for it? Since the invention of corporation tax, companies have received capital allowances for capital expenditure.

This is no different, other than on a much bigger scale and it's for the new e-economy. Apple and others are buying their patents, trademarks etc from havens and bringing them to Ireland.

As usual, the utterly useless business journalists in this country are focusing on sensational headlines rather than real issues. The most substantive issue in the Budget was a new 80% cap on IP capital allowances. How many here can say they read an article explaining the reality of what this does? Or heard an opposition politician talking about it? None I think.

What this means is that companies who spend money buying IP, can only use capital allowances to offset a maximum of 80% of their profits. However, the massive mistake Pascal Donoghue made (that no journalist or opposition politician seemed to notice) was that this only applies to future IP purchases and not to IP already here. So there are companies with first mover advantage who have paid humungous amounts for IP that will pay no Irish tax for a long time. That's utter nonsense tax policy.

Ironically, Apple have been the biggest lobbyists to Donoghue in trying to get him to make the 80% cap apply to all IP, which hopefully he will do before the Finance Act passes (although I have my doubts as there are others lobbying the other way). 
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 04:53:39 PM
Hadn't heard a thing about that Hound. Astonishing considering the implications.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on November 07, 2017, 04:59:27 PM
"The question is whether the Irish economy has become so distorted by its tax regime that nobody knows what is happening on the ground. ... 'We now have an economy so intertwined in international tax and accounting stunts that they bring with them a serious risk.' He said the next reclassification could see an equally dramatic drop in activity.  "
 FT:

"Tax experts said it was likely that Apple was taking advantage of the increased generosity of Ireland’s tax deductions for intellectual property such as patents and trademarks. They cited as evidence the sudden appearance of close to $270bn of intangible assets in Ireland’s national accounts."

It really belongs in the WTF thread.

But if a company buys a big asset for use in their trade, to drive profits in their trade, do you not think they should get a tax deduction for it? Since the invention of corporation tax, companies have received capital allowances for capital expenditure.

This is no different, other than on a much bigger scale and it's for the new e-economy. Apple and others are buying their patents, trademarks etc from havens and bringing them to Ireland.

As usual, the utterly useless business journalists in this country are focusing on sensational headlines rather than real issues. The most substantive issue in the Budget was a new 80% cap on IP capital allowances. How many here can say they read an article explaining the reality of what this does? Or heard an opposition politician talking about it? None I think.

What this means is that companies who spend money buying IP, can only use capital allowances to offset a maximum of 80% of their profits. However, the massive mistake Pascal Donoghue made (that no journalist or opposition politician seemed to notice) was that this only applies to future IP purchases and not to IP already here. So there are companies with first mover advantage who have paid humungous amounts for IP that will pay no Irish tax for a long time. That's utter nonsense tax policy.

Ironically, Apple have been the biggest lobbyists to Donoghue in trying to get him to make the 80% cap apply to all IP, which hopefully he will do before the Finance Act passes (although I have my doubts as there are others lobbying the other way).
I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: blast05 on November 07, 2017, 05:07:07 PM
"The question is whether the Irish economy has become so distorted by its tax regime that nobody knows what is happening on the ground. ... 'We now have an economy so intertwined in international tax and accounting stunts that they bring with them a serious risk.' He said the next reclassification could see an equally dramatic drop in activity.  "
 FT:

"Tax experts said it was likely that Apple was taking advantage of the increased generosity of Ireland’s tax deductions for intellectual property such as patents and trademarks. They cited as evidence the sudden appearance of close to $270bn of intangible assets in Ireland’s national accounts."

It really belongs in the WTF thread.

But if a company buys a big asset for use in their trade, to drive profits in their trade, do you not think they should get a tax deduction for it? Since the invention of corporation tax, companies have received capital allowances for capital expenditure.

This is no different, other than on a much bigger scale and it's for the new e-economy. Apple and others are buying their patents, trademarks etc from havens and bringing them to Ireland.

As usual, the utterly useless business journalists in this country are focusing on sensational headlines rather than real issues. The most substantive issue in the Budget was a new 80% cap on IP capital allowances. How many here can say they read an article explaining the reality of what this does? Or heard an opposition politician talking about it? None I think.

What this means is that companies who spend money buying IP, can only use capital allowances to offset a maximum of 80% of their profits. However, the massive mistake Pascal Donoghue made (that no journalist or opposition politician seemed to notice) was that this only applies to future IP purchases and not to IP already here. So there are companies with first mover advantage who have paid humungous amounts for IP that will pay no Irish tax for a long time. That's utter nonsense tax policy.

Ironically, Apple have been the biggest lobbyists to Donoghue in trying to get him to make the 80% cap apply to all IP, which hopefully he will do before the Finance Act passes (although I have my doubts as there are others lobbying the other way).

Maybe i am missing a point here but why would Apple campaign for the cap to be widened to all IP ?
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: armaghniac on November 07, 2017, 05:33:07 PM
Maybe i am missing a point here but why would Apple campaign for the cap to be widened to all IP ?

Perhaps because Apple have moved the old IP elsewhere, but want to bring some new IP?
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 07, 2017, 06:58:39 PM
We wouldn't be part of a so called monetary union without a lender of last resort.

Sorry to nit-pick but isn't the ECB the lender of last resort in the Eurozone?
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: weareros on November 07, 2017, 07:04:37 PM
While Apple and co are big tax evaders, it is the rest of the world they are scamming, including the US and Europe. By enabling it, we are benefiting - they are still one of our biggest tax payers and employers and were early investors in Ireland. We cannot however see that and we’ll ultimately be the authors of our own misfortune. We are only being squeezed by Europe, US and international media because the tax being avoided is on profits outside our territory. Our tax laws are terrible for the rest of the world. So effing what. If they were good for the world, they would not be in lil old Ireland.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on November 07, 2017, 07:11:55 PM
We wouldn't be part of a so called monetary union without a lender of last resort.

Sorry to nit-pick but isn't the ECB the lender of last resort in the Eurozone?
Who bailed out Anglo and AIB?
Lender of Last Resort does what it says on the tin.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 07:18:41 PM
We wouldn't be part of a so called monetary union without a lender of last resort.

Sorry to nit-pick but isn't the ECB the lender of last resort in the Eurozone?
Who bailed out Anglo and AIB?
Lender of Last Resort does what it says on the tin.


Lender of last resort was the Irish taxpayer.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 08, 2017, 12:10:11 AM
While Apple and co are big tax evaders, it is the rest of the world they are scamming, including the US and Europe. By enabling it, we are benefiting - they are still one of our biggest tax payers and employers and were early investors in Ireland. We cannot however see that and we’ll ultimately be the authors of our own misfortune. We are only being squeezed by Europe, US and international media because the tax being avoided is on profits outside our territory. Our tax laws are terrible for the rest of the world. So effing what. If they were good for the world, they would not be in lil old Ireland.

Point of order: If it's illegal then it's "evasion." If it's legal then it's "avoidance."

But yes. Running the place as a tax haven is not sustainable.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Syferus on November 08, 2017, 12:43:47 AM
No, it’s pretty sustainable given we also have unique advantages being the only English speaking member of the EU and a highly skilled workforce to meet the demands of these high-skilled jobs.

In general our pro-business approach has been a massive success in high-value industries like technology, although being so pro-business also enabled the property boom and bust. We’re the envy of many countries, including our EU partners who tried their dambedest to use the bailout to get us to cave on our corporation tax and thankfully failed miserably.

Our biggest mistake would be concerning ourselves with the opinions of vested interests like US sentators or the EU. I couldn’t give a toss what any journalist thinks about our tax system and nor, I imagine, do the government. We need someone to mow the lawn, not landscape the garden.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Hound on November 08, 2017, 07:12:32 AM
Maybe i am missing a point here but why would Apple campaign for the cap to be widened to all IP ?

Perhaps because Apple have moved the old IP elsewhere, but want to bring some new IP?

To widen the 80% cap to all IP will mean Apple will pay more tax in Ireland. That's now what they want. They don't want bad publicity so they feel a low sustainable tax rate is much better than paying no tax or minimal tax from an optical point of view. 
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Hound on November 08, 2017, 07:18:56 AM
I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.
That's not correct Seafoid.

Any dividends paid by Apple have to go through the US. Apple pay US 35% tax on all US earnings and on all worldwide earnings that are repatriated to the US.

Apple use their offshore earnings to fund non-US acquisitions.

Anyone can buy Apple shares, you don't have to be rich. The share price has been on an upward curve for most of the time. But it does go down from time to time too.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on November 08, 2017, 07:56:47 AM
I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.
That's not correct Seafoid.

Any dividends paid by Apple have to go through the US. Apple pay US 35% tax on all US earnings and on all worldwide earnings that are repatriated to the US.

Apple use their offshore earnings to fund non-US acquisitions.

Anyone can buy Apple shares, you don't have to be rich. The share price has been on an upward curve for most of the time. But it does go down from time to time too.
The majority of shares in the US are held by the richest 1% , Hound. Apple is a Monopoly play.
I see the argument that Apple refuse to pay tax in the US because it it too high in the FT all the time. Why do they use tax scams? Because the company is a mechanism to get cash out to.the 1%.
All the MNCs are doing it. A 5% dividend yield keeps the share price up even if revenues are flat. Zurich Insurance made $ 2 bn  or so in profit last year and paid $3bn in dividends. This is the latest fashion in corporate finance .
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: TabClear on November 08, 2017, 08:45:32 AM
I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.
That's not correct Seafoid.

Any dividends paid by Apple have to go through the US. Apple pay US 35% tax on all US earnings and on all worldwide earnings that are repatriated to the US.

Apple use their offshore earnings to fund non-US acquisitions.

Anyone can buy Apple shares, you don't have to be rich. The share price has been on an upward curve for most of the time. But it does go down from time to time too.
The majority of shares in the US are held by the richest 1% , Hound. Apple is a Monopoly play.
I see the argument that Apple refuse to pay tax in the US because it it too high in the FT all the time. Why do they use tax scams? Because the company is a mechanism to get cash out to.the 1%.
All the MNCs are doing it. A 5% dividend yield keeps the share price up even if revenues are flat. Zurich Insurance made $ 2 bn  or so in profit last year and paid $3bn in dividends. This is the latest fashion in corporate finance .

Profit and dividends aren't necessarily correlated in individual years. Don't know the details about Zurich but they may have refinanced or generated cash that isn't reflected in profits. Nothing wrong with distributing that to shareholders as long as the longterm business plan stacks up.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on November 08, 2017, 09:24:33 AM
I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.
That's not correct Seafoid.

Any dividends paid by Apple have to go through the US. Apple pay US 35% tax on all US earnings and on all worldwide earnings that are repatriated to the US.

Apple use their offshore earnings to fund non-US acquisitions.

Anyone can buy Apple shares, you don't have to be rich. The share price has been on an upward curve for most of the time. But it does go down from time to time too.
The majority of shares in the US are held by the richest 1% , Hound. Apple is a Monopoly play.
I see the argument that Apple refuse to pay tax in the US because it it too high in the FT all the time. Why do they use tax scams? Because the company is a mechanism to get cash out to.the 1%.
All the MNCs are doing it. A 5% dividend yield keeps the share price up even if revenues are flat. Zurich Insurance made $ 2 bn  or so in profit last year and paid $3bn in dividends. This is the latest fashion in corporate finance .

Profit and dividends aren't necessarily correlated in individual years. Don't know the details about Zurich but they may have refinanced or generated cash that isn't reflected in profits. Nothing wrong with distributing that to shareholders as long as the longterm business plan stacks up.
Companies are being systematically stripped of cash. Around $6bn per year in the top 500 US companies. Revenues have been flat going back 5 years for most MNCs.

A big drop in marketing spending from some of the world’s largest consumer products companies forced leading ad agency WPP to issue its second sales warning of the year in august

The top 50 global consumer goods companies have falling revenues. Nestlé is under pressure to pay a higher dividend. It is happening everywhere.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: TabClear on November 08, 2017, 10:14:43 AM
I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.
That's not correct Seafoid.

Any dividends paid by Apple have to go through the US. Apple pay US 35% tax on all US earnings and on all worldwide earnings that are repatriated to the US.

Apple use their offshore earnings to fund non-US acquisitions.

Anyone can buy Apple shares, you don't have to be rich. The share price has been on an upward curve for most of the time. But it does go down from time to time too.
The majority of shares in the US are held by the richest 1% , Hound. Apple is a Monopoly play.
I see the argument that Apple refuse to pay tax in the US because it it too high in the FT all the time. Why do they use tax scams? Because the company is a mechanism to get cash out to.the 1%.
All the MNCs are doing it. A 5% dividend yield keeps the share price up even if revenues are flat. Zurich Insurance made $ 2 bn  or so in profit last year and paid $3bn in dividends. This is the latest fashion in corporate finance .

Profit and dividends aren't necessarily correlated in individual years. Don't know the details about Zurich but they may have refinanced or generated cash that isn't reflected in profits. Nothing wrong with distributing that to shareholders as long as the longterm business plan stacks up.
Companies are being systematically stripped of cash. Around $6bn per year in the top 500 US companies. Revenues have been flat going back 5 years for most MNCs.

A big drop in marketing spending from some of the world’s largest consumer products companies forced leading ad agency WPP to issue its second sales warning of the year in august

The top 50 global consumer goods companies have falling revenues. Nestlé is under pressure to pay a higher dividend. It is happening everywhere.

Not disputing that companies are under pressure to generate cash.  But if the long term plan stacks up this is a good thing.  If they cant demonstrate to investors that they can provide a return they can't raise money for investment when needed. 

There is more focus on cost savings than revenue growth in recent years which does cause issues at a macro economic level. As for WPP they could take a look at Martin Sorrel''s remuneration package to save a few quid!
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Tony Baloney on November 08, 2017, 01:31:45 PM
I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.
That's not correct Seafoid.

Any dividends paid by Apple have to go through the US. Apple pay US 35% tax on all US earnings and on all worldwide earnings that are repatriated to the US.

Apple use their offshore earnings to fund non-US acquisitions.

Anyone can buy Apple shares, you don't have to be rich. The share price has been on an upward curve for most of the time. But it does go down from time to time too.
The majority of shares in the US are held by the richest 1% , Hound. Apple is a Monopoly play.
I see the argument that Apple refuse to pay tax in the US because it it too high in the FT all the time. Why do they use tax scams? Because the company is a mechanism to get cash out to.the 1%.
All the MNCs are doing it. A 5% dividend yield keeps the share price up even if revenues are flat. Zurich Insurance made $ 2 bn  or so in profit last year and paid $3bn in dividends. This is the latest fashion in corporate finance .

Profit and dividends aren't necessarily correlated in individual years. Don't know the details about Zurich but they may have refinanced or generated cash that isn't reflected in profits. Nothing wrong with distributing that to shareholders as long as the longterm business plan stacks up.
Companies are being systematically stripped of cash. Around $6bn per year in the top 500 US companies. Revenues have been flat going back 5 years for most MNCs.

A big drop in marketing spending from some of the world’s largest consumer products companies forced leading ad agency WPP to issue its second sales warning of the year in august

The top 50 global consumer goods companies have falling revenues. Nestlé is under pressure to pay a higher dividend. It is happening everywhere.

Not disputing that companies are under pressure to generate cash.  But if the long term plan stacks up this is a good thing.  If they cant demonstrate to investors that they can provide a return they can't raise money for investment when needed. 

There is more focus on cost savings than revenue growth in recent years which does cause issues at a macro economic level. As for WPP they could take a look at Martin Sorrel''s remuneration package to save a few quid!
There was a headline earlier in the year saying that Martin Sorrell's FY16-17 salary had "plunged" from £70 million to £48 million  ;D I'll take it if he doesn't want it!
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: TabClear on November 08, 2017, 01:49:44 PM

There was a headline earlier in the year saying that Martin Sorrell's FY16-17 salary had "plunged" from £70 million to £48 million  ;D I'll take it if he doesn't want it!

I know. Poor Martin. 
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Hound on November 08, 2017, 02:38:00 PM
I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.
That's not correct Seafoid.

Any dividends paid by Apple have to go through the US. Apple pay US 35% tax on all US earnings and on all worldwide earnings that are repatriated to the US.

Apple use their offshore earnings to fund non-US acquisitions.

Anyone can buy Apple shares, you don't have to be rich. The share price has been on an upward curve for most of the time. But it does go down from time to time too.
The majority of shares in the US are held by the richest 1% , Hound. Apple is a Monopoly play.
I see the argument that Apple refuse to pay tax in the US because it it too high in the FT all the time. Why do they use tax scams? Because the company is a mechanism to get cash out to.the 1%.
All the MNCs are doing it. A 5% dividend yield keeps the share price up even if revenues are flat. Zurich Insurance made $ 2 bn  or so in profit last year and paid $3bn in dividends. This is the latest fashion in corporate finance .
Seafoid, you are a great man to ignore responses and retaining your mantra about the evil 1%.

As I've said, if a US headquartered company, such as Apple, is paying a dividend to shareholders, that dividend is coming out of profits that have been taxed at 35%.

The profits they make using Irish structures are not used to pay dividends. They can't pay dividends without routing the money through the US. They can't route the money to the US without paying 35% US tax.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: magpie seanie on November 08, 2017, 03:19:42 PM
I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.
That's not correct Seafoid.

Any dividends paid by Apple have to go through the US. Apple pay US 35% tax on all US earnings and on all worldwide earnings that are repatriated to the US.

Apple use their offshore earnings to fund non-US acquisitions.

Anyone can buy Apple shares, you don't have to be rich. The share price has been on an upward curve for most of the time. But it does go down from time to time too.
The majority of shares in the US are held by the richest 1% , Hound. Apple is a Monopoly play.
I see the argument that Apple refuse to pay tax in the US because it it too high in the FT all the time. Why do they use tax scams? Because the company is a mechanism to get cash out to.the 1%.
All the MNCs are doing it. A 5% dividend yield keeps the share price up even if revenues are flat. Zurich Insurance made $ 2 bn  or so in profit last year and paid $3bn in dividends. This is the latest fashion in corporate finance .
Seafoid, you are a great man to ignore responses and retaining your mantra about the evil 1%.

As I've said, if a US headquartered company, such as Apple, is paying a dividend to shareholders, that dividend is coming out of profits that have been taxed at 35%.

The profits they make using Irish structures are not used to pay dividends. They can't pay dividends without routing the money through the US. They can't route the money to the US without paying 35% US tax.


Yes but Trump is going to slash US CT and that's what all these big corporations are waiting for. They'll be able to pull in funds at a vastly reduced tax rate if this bozo gets his way and I'm pretty sure this is the main reason he has got elected. Bizarrely, if this happens, cash will flood back into the US and might result in more jobs there.......Trump is a genius.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Syferus on November 08, 2017, 03:25:26 PM
Trump can barely pass wind let alone tax reform.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on November 08, 2017, 04:09:08 PM
I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.
That's not correct Seafoid.

Any dividends paid by Apple have to go through the US. Apple pay US 35% tax on all US earnings and on all worldwide earnings that are repatriated to the US.

Apple use their offshore earnings to fund non-US acquisitions.

Anyone can buy Apple shares, you don't have to be rich. The share price has been on an upward curve for most of the time. But it does go down from time to time too.
The majority of shares in the US are held by the richest 1% , Hound. Apple is a Monopoly play.
I see the argument that Apple refuse to pay tax in the US because it it too high in the FT all the time. Why do they use tax scams? Because the company is a mechanism to get cash out to.the 1%.
All the MNCs are doing it. A 5% dividend yield keeps the share price up even if revenues are flat. Zurich Insurance made $ 2 bn  or so in profit last year and paid $3bn in dividends. This is the latest fashion in corporate finance .
Seafoid, you are a great man to ignore responses and retaining your mantra about the evil 1%.

As I've said, if a US headquartered company, such as Apple, is paying a dividend to shareholders, that dividend is coming out of profits that have been taxed at 35%.

The profits they make using Irish structures are not used to pay dividends. They can't pay dividends without routing the money through the US. They can't route the money to the US without paying 35% US tax.
They can use capital based in the US to pay dividends and buybacks. Money is fungible. The key point for Apple is that it is not taxed.

US wealth distribution :

http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/557ef766ecad04fe50a257cd-960/
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Franko on November 08, 2017, 05:23:14 PM
I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.
That's not correct Seafoid.

Any dividends paid by Apple have to go through the US. Apple pay US 35% tax on all US earnings and on all worldwide earnings that are repatriated to the US.

Apple use their offshore earnings to fund non-US acquisitions.

Anyone can buy Apple shares, you don't have to be rich. The share price has been on an upward curve for most of the time. But it does go down from time to time too.
The majority of shares in the US are held by the richest 1% , Hound. Apple is a Monopoly play.
I see the argument that Apple refuse to pay tax in the US because it it too high in the FT all the time. Why do they use tax scams? Because the company is a mechanism to get cash out to.the 1%.
All the MNCs are doing it. A 5% dividend yield keeps the share price up even if revenues are flat. Zurich Insurance made $ 2 bn  or so in profit last year and paid $3bn in dividends. This is the latest fashion in corporate finance .
Seafoid, you are a great man to ignore responses and retaining your mantra about the evil 1%.

As I've said, if a US headquartered company, such as Apple, is paying a dividend to shareholders, that dividend is coming out of profits that have been taxed at 35%.

The profits they make using Irish structures are not used to pay dividends. They can't pay dividends without routing the money through the US. They can't route the money to the US without paying 35% US tax.

Hound,  you are definitely more knowledgeable than me on this topic* but is seafoid's point not that they are able to pay huge dividends in the US with their 'legitimate' cash because they have a reserve stash of 'untaxed' cash in offshore accounts available to fund their other operations.

If they had to funnel the rest of their cash through the US legitimately, the cash pile for 'foreign acquisitions' wouldn't be just as monstrous and some of that wealth may actually be spread between the 99% and not just distributed to those at the top of the pile.

*so feel free to wipe the floor with my argument
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 08, 2017, 05:54:47 PM
No, it’s pretty sustainable given we also have unique advantages being the only English speaking member of the EU and a highly skilled workforce to meet the demands of these high-skilled jobs.

In general our pro-business approach has been a massive success in high-value industries like technology, although being so pro-business also enabled the property boom and bust. We’re the envy of many countries, including our EU partners who tried their dambedest to use the bailout to get us to cave on our corporation tax and thankfully failed miserably.

Our biggest mistake would be concerning ourselves with the opinions of vested interests like US sentators or the EU. I couldn’t give a toss what any journalist thinks about our tax system and nor, I imagine, do the government. We need someone to mow the lawn, not landscape the garden.

What if the state is under-funded? If there's not enough money to treat the sick, build a decent amount of social housing and pay enough to railway workers to stop them from going on strike then how sustainable is it?
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: Syferus on November 08, 2017, 06:03:26 PM
No, it’s pretty sustainable given we also have unique advantages being the only English speaking member of the EU and a highly skilled workforce to meet the demands of these high-skilled jobs.

In general our pro-business approach has been a massive success in high-value industries like technology, although being so pro-business also enabled the property boom and bust. We’re the envy of many countries, including our EU partners who tried their dambedest to use the bailout to get us to cave on our corporation tax and thankfully failed miserably.

Our biggest mistake would be concerning ourselves with the opinions of vested interests like US sentators or the EU. I couldn’t give a toss what any journalist thinks about our tax system and nor, I imagine, do the government. We need someone to mow the lawn, not landscape the garden.

What if the state is under-funded? If there's not enough money to treat the sick, build a decent amount of social housing and pay enough to railway workers to stop them from going on strike then how sustainable is it?

If you saw how much money a lot of transport staff are making you might have less sympathy for them. As an aside, their jobs will be largely replaced by AI-controlled autonomous transport developed by the very same technology companies we’ve attracted with our tax rates in the next few decades. It will probably be the only way semi-state transport companies will stem their continual losses.

Ireland is far, far ahead of the bell curve on the worldwide scale when it comes to social supports. But a lot seem to be unwilling to admit we’re already doing a pretty remarkable job on that front overall.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on November 08, 2017, 06:09:56 PM
Hound

If the 35% issue got in the way of dividends and buybacks Apple would have cut a deal. The top.10 tech firms' share prices are up 30% this year because they are making super profits and paying very little tax. Earnings per share is the metric.

Apple has a cash pile of $252 bn offshore. How much has it spent on acquisitions in the last 5 years?

https://www.ft.com/content/3327c766-c325-11e7-b2bb-322b2cb39656

"Apple advisers at US law firm Baker Mackenzie approached Appleby, the offshore law firm at the heart of the Paradise Papers leak, in 2014 about available tax structures in the Cayman Islands, the British Virgin Islands, Bermuda, the Isle of Man, Guernsey and Jersey, according to the ICIJ. One of the emails from Baker Mackenzie to Appleby, released by the ICIJ, stated: “Confirm that an Irish company can conduct management activities . . . without being subject to taxation in your jurisdiction.” The ICIJ said Apple eventually “settled on Jersey . . . [which was to] play a significant role in Apple’s newly configured Irish tax structure set up in late 2014”. “Under this arrangement, the MacBook-maker has continued to enjoy ultra-low tax rates on most of its profits and now holds much of its non-US earnings in a $252bn mountain of cash offshore"

What matters is how the system works

https://www.ft.com/content/94063982-ba97-11e7-8c12-5661783e5589

"Every percentage point drop in the corporate tax rate results in a $1 rise in earnings per share for the S&P 500, according to Vinay Pande, head of short-term investment opportunities at UBS Wealth Management. “[Corporate] profit share of GDP is rising and if there is a tax cut it will rise more,” he said. “The thing about equities, you trade the profit share of GDP. If someone reduces regulation, cuts taxes, does not empower labour unions . . . the profit share will go up.” Mr Pande added that sentiment among investors had also shifted because of the strong gains by the market this year, with the Nasdaq and Dow Jones Industrial Average both up more than 18 per cent in 2017. The S&P 500 technology index has gained more than 30 per cent this year, compared to the broader benchmark’s 14.4 per cent rise"
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: heganboy on November 09, 2017, 01:19:53 AM
Lads I'm not sure where you're getting some of those stats, they seem significantly off to me.

There's no way that the 1% own the majority of US equity.

Ok looked it up, Mutual funds have 20% pension funds have 16 and insurance holdings are 7%.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on November 09, 2017, 12:15:40 PM
Lads I'm not sure where you're getting some of those stats, they seem significantly off to me.

There's no way that the 1% own the majority of US equity.

Ok looked it up, Mutual funds have 20% pension funds have 16 and insurance holdings are 7%.
they own most bonds as well.
Title: Re: Apple's data centre in Athenry
Post by: seafoid on November 09, 2017, 12:26:55 PM
https://www.ft.com/content/0de96cb6-c4ce-11e7-a1d2-6786f39ef675

Taxpayers in the wealthiest 1 per cent of US households stand to receive nearly half the benefit of the Republicans’ tax overhaul by 2027, according to a think-tank. Their after-tax incomes would likely be boosted 2.2 per cent, while lower income taxpayers would see little change, according to new analysis of the House of Representatives’ tax reform bill by the Tax Policy Center. Those in the middle would see a 0.4 per cent lift.