Tony, Pat - 'Hammerings' are part of sport

[Solo Run]

I saw the highlights last night of Carlow getting a 'hammering' by Meath. So what, Carlow are badly organised, were not a full strength, and Meath appeared to play particularly well. I couldn't believe it last night when Tony Davis / Pat Spillane intimated that Carlow participation in the championship is of dubious benefit. What is it about GAA Analysts/Pundits and sometimes officials that makes them trot out this claptrap every time one of the 'weaker' counties get beaten badly?

The last time I checked in high-scoring games like Rugby, American Football, Cricket, Aussie Rules, Basketball etc (and even Soccer, to an extent) teams regularly get bad beatings. However these organisations don't go around trying to reduce the number of competing teams!! The onus is on those teams to get their act together. If we followed their logic then Wicklow may not even have played Kildare yesterday - a perennial div 4 team who are often on the receiving end of some lob-sided scoreleines.

As a principle all 32 (34) teams must be given the same chance of competing, regardless of format, regardless of ability and regardless of past performance. Treat them like equals and they will behave and perform like equals.

Seedings, secondary competitions, selected teams into qualifiers is a load of baloney and helps no-one. The big advantage football has over hurling is that on a given day "nearly" any other county could beat another. Tommy Lyons said only one of  6 could win the All-Ireland, he conviently never mentioned who they were but guessing they could be 'Kerry - Cork - Dublin - Armagh - Tyrone - Derry/Galway'. Regardless of who he had in mind, the next 'level' Meath, Donegal, Mayo, Monaghan, Westmeath, could easily beat those 6/7 on a given day.Then we have counties like Fermanagh, Wexford, Louth, Sligo, Kildare,  Offaly, Down who could threaten the top teams and definitley beat the next level. Then we even have Longford, Leitrim, Wicklow, Limerick, Tipperary, Clare, Cavan, Antrim etc who are tricky opposition at times, particularly at home. In summary, even though we would expect the AI to be won by Kerry, in my mind about ten teams could beat them on a given day, and beneath that 10-15 teams could in turn beat those ten on a given day. I suspect this is as healthy and as competitive as the GAA has ever been.

So relax about 'hammerings', it happens, there is nothing wrong with it. Just a reflection of a teams ability at a given time. Carlow are more than capable of wining a Leinster Championship match or two in the next few years if the put their minds to it. They certanly won't if we have secondary competitions that nobody wants, would go to see or do the teams any good at all.

So Pat, Tony......just please stop this annual baloney.

By the way, the best thing ever is the 9-team Ulster Hurling Championship, which I hope and expect will reap great rewards for Ulster Hurling in the future. Fantastic, cuts to the chase and tells the counties get on with it. If teams get a hammering from time to time, so what.

[Death Valley]

Excellent post Solo Run, I was of the same opinion. 3 Division 4 teams were playing yesterday. Carlow were hammered. Antrim give Cavan a fair ould scare & Wiclow beat Kildare by 5. So I cant understand how Davis came to the conclusion he did. All I can say is get the thick idiot off the tele he has nothing to offer, using his methodology we mind as well hand Kerry the All Ireland, & maybe let Cork play them in the final. An awful idiot.

[Onlooker]

Excellent post Solo Run, I was of the same opinion. 3 Division 4 teams were playing yesterday. Carlow were hammered. Antrim give Cavan a fair ould scare & Wiclow beat Kildare by 5. So I cant understand how Davis came to the conclusion he did. All I can say is get the thick idiot off the tele he has nothing to offer, using his methodology we mind as well hand Kerry the All Ireland, & maybe let Cork play them in the final. An awful idiot.

I agree with you all the way lads.  Spillane and Davis could not see the contradictions in their position of praising Wicklow and saying that Carlow should not be allowed to play in the Leinster Championship.  They are both Div. 4 teams with almost identical records in this year's NFL.  I can only presume that they had their statements about Carlow and possibly Wicklow were prepared during the week and then had to think again when Wicklow won.  Not many Div. 4 teams would lie down like Cork did in last year's All Ireland Final.

[AZOffaly]

I also agree lads. Offaly were a division 4 team as well. Is Davis going to tell me that Offaly shouldn't be 'allowed' play in the Leinster championship? The blatant contradiction in praising Wicklow while castigating Carlow seemed to pass them by. And about 10 minutes earlier one of them said something like 'This is what championship is all about, it's about more than winning Sam Maguire.'

[cornafean]

Lads, I don't know why you are picking on the Sunday Game guys for their peculiar attitudes to the "weaker counties". They are not alone in this.

GAA Director-General, Paraic Duffy, warned that allowing those teams back into the championship would have a negative impact on the local club scene as it would use up an extra weekend and add to already hectic schedules.

Duffy also said that it would be naive to expect that a Division Four team would start winning championship games and questioned why change was being proposed so soon.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/tommy-murphy-cup-dead-in-the-water-says-gaa-boss-1346829.html

[Maroon Heaven]

Every few years the same argument is thrown out there. I remember when it was said about Westmeath in the 80's and when our Hurlers on the subs bench were pictured smoking in teh Dugout. Its always been the same and everyone reams off the same old garbabe. More must be done at underage level  - Blueprints - Schools. I have been hearing it since for 20 years now and the state of the game has stayed the same.

I think its unwarrented to say Carlow have done nothing - Their Minors reached a Leinster, their Schools have come on. Players like Mark Carpenter would get on most Senior teams. And then to slag teh Tommy Murphy Cup after saying that was what gave Wicklow the boost.

Bad scene by RTE and Tony Davis (who is usually spot on), I think we could have got a Sunday game from teh first round of the Championshiop in the 70's & 80's & 90's and the same sh1t would be said.

[AZOffaly]

Lads, I don't know why you are picking on the Sunday Game guys for their peculiar attitudes to the "weaker counties". They are not alone in this.

GAA Director-General, Paraic Duffy, warned that allowing those teams back into the championship would have a negative impact on the local club scene as it would use up an extra weekend and add to already hectic schedules.

Duffy also said that it would be naive to expect that a Division Four team would start winning championship games and questioned why change was being proposed so soon.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/tommy-murphy-cup-dead-in-the-water-says-gaa-boss-1346829.html

We're picking on the Sunday Game lads here, because they said it last night AFTER Wicklow had beaten Kildare. But I hate it when anyone talks like that. As was said, there's more to championship than winning Sam Maguire, and the likes of Westmeath, Sligo, Fermanagh etc etc have come from nowhere in recent times to become respected competitors. IF these lads had their way, Westmeath would never have been taking on Mayo back in 2002 or whenever it was, Fermanagh would be toiling away and Sligo would be still thinking about 1975. The Offaly hurlers of the 1980s and 1990s would never have happened, and Clare would still be best known for Spancil Hill and Lisdoonvarna.

Let them compete, and help them raise their standards if you want, but I firmly believe the Provincial and All Irelands should be open to everybody, and everybody should be encouraged to play in them. The decision to eliminate Division 4 teams from the Qualifiers was the greatest bit of contradictory thinking I've heard, seeing as how their express purpose was to give lads at least 2 games in the championship after training for 6 months and more.

I'm in favour of a second level competition, properly pitched and marketed, which would allow teams to compete in a competition they can win as well, but that competition should be in addition to the Championship, not instead of it.

[cornafean]

Well said.

The Monaghan hurlers are making a bit of a name for themselves at the moment, having recorded two exciting wins on the trot in the revamped Ulster Hurling Championship. Some might say (correctly) that they are operating at a low level but its good to see them making  a big effort and getting some measure of success in return.

[Maroon Heaven]

Would it be easier if the "6 teams who could win Sam" be penalised and only play with their Left foot, or they cann't move if they have the ball like Netball.

Its always easy to blame the weak counties, what about blaming the strong counties

[AZOffaly]

I don't think 'blame' is the right word at all, even though I know that was tongue in cheek. Weaker counties should be encouraged to bridge the gap, as much as they can. Stronger counties should be encouraged to keep their standards high.

Gaelic games is a meritocracy, as it should be, but you can't sacrifice the rights of teams to play for their own, albeit lower, targets just so some pundit or journalist can always be commentating on Kerry v Armagh, or Tyrone v Galway. The championship was never like that, nor should it be. I hope the GAA don't go down the road of the games being a 'product'.

[North Longford]

Just a small point in Spillane's support, i actually thought he took Davis up on this assertion and asked him how would weaker teams ever improve if they only played against teams of the same level.

[magpie seanie]

It never ceases to amaze me how much store people put on league form despite oceans of evidence that this is not the right way to judge things. League form means next to nothing.

[AZOffaly]

That's true NL, and I think Spillane was correct.

I know where Davis is coming from, in that you don't learn a lot from hammerings, either way, but by denying them the chance to play better opposition, you are stagnating their growth. In fairness Carlow should be better than that, so they need to look at themselves a bit, but throwing them out of the Championship, or other teams like them (Wicklow as a topical example) is not the way forward.

[AZOffaly]

It never ceases to amaze me how much store people put on league form despite oceans of evidence that this is not the right way to judge things. League form means next to nothing.

I wouldn't agree 100% with that Seanie. I find it depends and varies from county to county. If a county puts a serious effort into the league, then you are entitled to draw conclusions from that, especially when they play other counties of a similar outlook. There are always Micko types who treat the league as an inconvenience at worst, and a glorified challenge match at best, but I think the benefits of playing at a higher level of league football are worth the effort. I know Offaly, for example, won the Leinster title out of Division 4 in 1997, and Sligo will be division 4 next year despite being Connacht champions, but in general, the better teams in the league are also the better teams in the championship. Not necessarily the winners of the league, or those playing great stuff in the league, but it's better to be playing in the top two divisions, and going along steadily, than playing in the bottom two.

[haranguerer]

It was said about fermanagh in the past, in 96 tyrone gave them a timbering, and Martin McHugh siad they shouldnt be let play in the championship. The wee bast*ard hasnt been forgiven either. In 97 cavan won Ulster, but needed a replay to get by fermanagh, and the second game was nearly as tight. Theres been a steady improvement since. I dread to think what we'd be like now if someone had actually listened to the wee pri*k