UVF Give up but keep the Guns

Started by An Fear Rua, May 03, 2007, 10:39:06 AM

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ziggysego

I really couldn't care less if the UVF decommission or not. If needs-be (and there never is), the guns will be found.

It's all about the UVF intentions and acts, that's what I'll judge them on. Unfortunately, judging from the pass, I don't hold much hope for this statement. They're just looking for some of Gordon's money and they'll be back doing what they do best..... terrorising their own community.
Testing Accessibility

nifan

Unfortunately I dont see the scumbags going away anytime soon, they have been a gangster organisation for some time.

Quotethey're a blight on their own community and i for one wouldn't care if they carried on shooting each other over who has the best bling, peddling drugs to their own children and pretending they are tony soprano in their own drinking dens.

Id prefer they didnt propagate their like any more, and id hope that the kids of the areas they are in can get away from the scumbags rather than being customers for them.

lynchbhoy

this ceasefire (while welcome) is of no consequence really, these guys never had the stomach for fighting as they only ever went for innocent targets or when it was a turkey shoot - more importantly they needed the brit army/ruc/mi5 / mi6 to lead all such attacks - otherwise these gormless fools couldnt kill a butterfly (their pipe bombs exploding as they made them and 99% exploding before reaching their target locations proved that without brit army help these fools could do nothing themselves)

it was the brit gov's decision to stop assisting these people that has decommissioned them.
For their own safety they would be better off letting someone take the guns from them - otherwise they'll only harm themselves


(though I suppose they still could be used for their drug trade - scaring people by waving them about)
..........

Evil Genius

Quote from: Uladh on May 03, 2007, 11:06:19 AM
Whatever about the rights and wrongs of the IRA's campaign, they were struggling for an ideal.


So the ends justify the means, then, eh, with the Provos "ends" being to help administer British Rule in Ireland from Stormont, and the "means" including Claudy, Warrington, Enniskillen, Guildford, Bloody Friday, Kingsmill, Birmingham, La Mon, the Exiled/Disappeared/Knee-Capped/Tortured/Suicide etc etc etc?

Still, I guess it was worth it for the Armani Suits and Designer Sunglasses.

Anyway, weren't the UVF doing it "For God and Ulster"? Their only "crime" was "loyalty", after all.

And when it comes to it, Hitler was struggling for an ideal - namely, the establishment of a racially pure German Reich which would last for a Thousand Years.

"You've got to have a Dream,
If you don't have a Dream,
How you gonna Make your Dream come True?"  
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Main Street

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 03, 2007, 12:34:00 PM
Quote from: Uladh on May 03, 2007, 11:06:19 AM
Whatever about the rights and wrongs of the IRA's campaign, they were struggling for an ideal.
So the ends justify the means, then, eh,   
You must have stretched every one of your brain cells to make that inference from Ulaidh's post.
Do you have an itch that never ceases to need scratching?

his holiness nb

"Anyway, weren't the UVF doing it "For God and Ulster"? Their only "crime" was "loyalty", after all"

Loyalty to imperialism EG, yes.
Didnt know you were a fan of theirs, but it does make sense.  :D

Ask me holy bollix

Evil Genius

Quote from: Main Street on May 03, 2007, 12:41:28 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on May 03, 2007, 12:34:00 PM
Quote from: Uladh on May 03, 2007, 11:06:19 AM
Whatever about the rights and wrongs of the IRA's campaign, they were struggling for an ideal.
So the ends justify the means, then, eh,   
You must have stretched every one of your brain cells to make that inference from Ulaidh's post.
Do you have an itch that never ceases to need scratching?


Well, I'm scratching my head right now to come up with any interpretation other than that Ulaidh considers that the Provos were in some way mitigated or absolved in their actions since they were acting for a cause.
Or was it that their cause ("protecting" the Nationalist community) was somehow "nobler" than that of the UVF ("protecting the Loyalist community)?
Or maybe that the UVF had no "cause" in the first place?

And that's before we even come to the phrase: "Whatever the rights or wrongs". I'm afraid from where I'm sitting, I fail to see how the "rights" in any way go to balance the thousands who died, were imprisoned, terrified, intimidated, extorted, indoctrinated, beaten, abducted etc directly as a result of the Provos' campaign.

Still, Mussolini made the trains run on time, I suppose, and the Provos have done wonders for the value of holiday homes in Donegal...

(And before anyone jumps in, my contempt for the Provos in no way diminishes my contempt for the UVF/UDA etc - as far as I'm concerned, they're all an equal blight on the communities from which they derive)
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Evil Genius

Quote from: his holiness nb on May 03, 2007, 01:19:03 PM
"Anyway, weren't the UVF doing it "For God and Ulster"? Their only "crime" was "loyalty", after all"

Loyalty to imperialism EG, yes.
Didnt know you were a fan of theirs, but it does make sense.  :D

I had hoped the use of inverted commas might give a clue as to my view of the UVF and the cause they claim to espouse. But if not, I hope my subsequent post* is clearer.

* - Clue: Contempt
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

his holiness nb

You used inverted commas for "crime" too.
Strange that  :-\

Why not just post your thoughts rather leave "clues" via inverted comma? ie. cut the bulshit.

The "causes" cant be equated. Nor should they be described purely as "protecting their community" on both sides as you have so conveniently described them.

You know this is bolloxtalk.
One cause = achieve freedom from imperialism
The other = maintaining imperialism

Please answer the following question with a one word, yes or no reply.

DO YOU APPROVE OF IMPERIALISM?

Ask me holy bollix

Evil Genius

Quote from: his holiness nb on May 03, 2007, 01:41:00 PM
You used inverted commas for "crime" too.
Strange that  :-\

Why not just post your thoughts rather leave "clues" via inverted comma? ie. cut the bulshit.

The "causes" cant be equated. Nor should they be described purely as "protecting their community" on both sides as you have so conveniently described them.

You know this is bolloxtalk.
One cause = achieve freedom from imperialism
The other = maintaining imperialism

Please answer the following question with a one word, yes or no reply.

DO YOU APPROVE OF IMPERIALISM?



I do not approve of Imperialism.

Nor do I approve of the IRA or the UVF.

I do not consider that the IRA was fighting Imperialism, nor that the UVF was defending NI.

I consider that each organisation was serving its own end, neither of which I approve. Further, even if I did approve of either of the causes which they purport to have espoused, I don't consider either would have been worth the terror and misery involved in their respective campaigns.

Gandhi was opposed to Imperialism and was successful in defeating it, despite* his eschewing the use of violence. I admire Gandhi.

Is that all clear enough for you?


* - Arguably "because of".
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

his holiness nb

Perfectly clear EG.
And I thank you for clarifying.  :)
Ask me holy bollix

Uladh

Quote from: Evil Genius on May 03, 2007, 12:34:00 PM
Quote from: Uladh on May 03, 2007, 11:06:19 AM
Whatever about the rights and wrongs of the IRA's campaign, they were struggling for an ideal.


So the ends justify the means, then, eh, with the Provos "ends" being to help administer British Rule in Ireland from Stormont, and the "means" including Claudy, Warrington, Enniskillen, Guildford, Bloody Friday, Kingsmill, Birmingham, La Mon, the Exiled/Disappeared/Knee-Capped/Tortured/Suicide etc etc etc?

I give up

lynchbhoy

Quote from: Uladh on May 03, 2007, 03:59:57 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on May 03, 2007, 12:34:00 PM
Quote from: Uladh on May 03, 2007, 11:06:19 AM
Whatever about the rights and wrongs of the IRA's campaign, they were struggling for an ideal.


So the ends justify the means, then, eh, with the Provos "ends" being to help administer British Rule in Ireland from Stormont, and the "means" including Claudy, Warrington, Enniskillen, Guildford, Bloody Friday, Kingsmill, Birmingham, La Mon, the Exiled/Disappeared/Knee-Capped/Tortured/Suicide etc etc etc?

I give up

I know what you mean
even after all this time he's still starting his quotes from the middle of the historical period ... ::)
..........

Evil Genius

Quote from: Uladh on May 03, 2007, 03:59:57 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on May 03, 2007, 12:34:00 PM
Quote from: Uladh on May 03, 2007, 11:06:19 AM
Whatever about the rights and wrongs of the IRA's campaign, they were struggling for an ideal.


So the ends justify the means, then, eh, with the Provos "ends" being to help administer British Rule in Ireland from Stormont, and the "means" including Claudy, Warrington, Enniskillen, Guildford, Bloody Friday, Kingsmill, Birmingham, La Mon, the Exiled/Disappeared/Knee-Capped/Tortured/Suicide etc etc etc?

I give up

What you originally posted was this:

"Whatever about the rights and wrongs of the IRA's campaign, they were struggling for an ideal.

These clowns [the UVF] have had no moral standing, even in the eyes of their own people, for a very long time abd are thugs and gangsters pure and simple"


I inferred two things from that:
1. You feel that the fact that the IRA were "struggling for an ideal", this in some way mitigated the "wrongs" of their campaign, leading to
2. Your conclusion that the IRA have a moral standing superior to that of the UVF.

If I have inferred incorrectly, please enlighten me.

Otherwise, I feel that the first inference is contemptible, since even if you do feel that any methods may be justifiable in the pursuit of a noble ideal (ethically debateable, to say the least), the extreme methods utilised were far in excess of any likely gain.
As for the second inference, I cannot use the term "moral standing" with reference to either organisation, since I consider them to be equally amoral in their ends and means.
Of course, it is an unfortunate characteristic of extremists in each community to consider their own particular cause to be in some way morally superior to that of the other.
Then again, prisoners who e.g. burgle and terrorise pensioners in their own homes tend to consider themselves to be morally superior to e.g. child abusers.
Personally, I wouldn't like to be associated with either camp.
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Evil Genius

Quote from: lynchbhoy on May 03, 2007, 04:03:28 PM
Quote from: Uladh on May 03, 2007, 03:59:57 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on May 03, 2007, 12:34:00 PM
Quote from: Uladh on May 03, 2007, 11:06:19 AM
Whatever about the rights and wrongs of the IRA's campaign, they were struggling for an ideal.


So the ends justify the means, then, eh, with the Provos "ends" being to help administer British Rule in Ireland from Stormont, and the "means" including Claudy, Warrington, Enniskillen, Guildford, Bloody Friday, Kingsmill, Birmingham, La Mon, the Exiled/Disappeared/Knee-Capped/Tortured/Suicide etc etc etc?

I give up

I know what you mean
even after all this time he's still starting his quotes from the middle of the historical period ... ::)

What do you mean by "the middle of the historical period"?  ???
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"