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Very interesting Neil - again without being a forensic accountant, I'd have to say that if I see a column that says "Games Development" followed by a column that says "Dublin Games Development" I'd assume them to be separate items (willing to be corrected here)

If that is the case, that means nationally 4.5 mil spent on development, specifically on hurling there was 2.1 million spent nationally, and Dublin was then given 1.4 million - you'll note that figure isn't broken down as I assume all those personnel expenses etc are administered by the Dublin County board - so I'd say the coaches you're talking about come from that 1.4.

The only crossover i could possibly see is with national competitions that are competed in by Dublin - eg Cumann Na mBunscoil and Feile - which is minimal in expenditure.

Role of the provinces is very important - so whilst Cork say get 100k games development specifically for themselves, the Munster council get 1.1 million - so I'm sure there are projects within cork that benefit from this further allocation. Dublin, because of population reasons, is essentially being administered as a province, separate from Leinster. If you look at it that way, it is actually nowhere near as unfair as Don't Matter makes out - in fact it is very near equal spending per capita.

Dublins Leinster titles at Senior are presently 8 in 9 years.

Everyone sees what they want to see. I'd be of the opinion that since the Westmeath/Laois uprisings in the middle of the last decade, the standard of football in Leinster generally has gone down. Does no one remember the articles bemoaning the lack of Leinster participation in the semi finals? The general excuses that Leinster football was no preparation for the All Ireland series?

The falling of standards in Laois, Offaly, Westmeath, Offaly and, most damagingly for the province, Meath, which has facilitated Dublin's dominance has absolutely nothing to do with home advantage, fans on the hill, underage success for Dublin or developmental funds given to Dublin. I said earlier on in this thread, that until other counties emulate Dublin by looking analytically and critically at how they run their affairs, they will always lag behind. That is the true inbuilt disadvantage and given that Dublin only started doing this themselves a few years ago, it proves that this can be done, and quickly, by any County board with a bit of vision. And before the resident gobdaw starts going on about counties being on a pittance, there is a right way and a wrong way to spend a pittance. Any revival for other counties should start within, rather than blaming outside factors.

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Fair enough AZ and i didn't particularly have you in mind in my reply - but Dublin have been playing League matches in Croker for as long as i can remember - they have been back and forth between Parnell and Croker so many time it is unbelievable. During the McCaul and Mullins management periods in the mid to late 80s all of the League matches in were at headquarters. Now we were being overshadowed by Meath at the time in the championships, but if it was adding even a point to our dismal performances, surely it should have been addressed back then? Something that is unfair inherently doesn't become more unfair because of the actual result. So to bring it up now as a factor in their success (as I think is your position) can be interpreted as sour grapes, with some justification by Dublin fans. Or as is the case with our resident headbanger, it is sour grapes with accusations of cheating thrown in.

I have no problem addressing inequality, but perhaps the inequality of winning only two games to gain a provincial title and entry to the All Ireland series as opposed to three or four should be recognised as far more blatant than the perceived advantages Dublin have?

Not too much left to contribute on this one except

1. Dressing room argument is absolutely crazy - the dressing rooms in Croker are mirror images of each other and have identical facilitities, med rooms, warm up areas. Dressing rooms can be in an issue in say a provincial final in a neutral venue - don't know whether Semple has a home (and thus a more comfortable) dressing room but I could see it meaning something there. One thing you're guaranteed at Croker is exactly the same facilities as the Dubs, or whoever your opponent may be.

2. People are saying the Dubs have an advantage yet it has never been an issue up until this year. Now something is either inherently unfair or it is not and it should have been addressed years back.  To kick up about it now that we are winning does smack of sour grapes, whether intended or not. You should have got on to your county boards long before now to rectify this situation if it was unfair. However, home advantage, debatable as it is, is nowhere near as inherently unequal as having to win less matches to get the same title. As counties like Kerry use to their advantage.

3. Some lads are talking about the advantage the Dubs have of sleeping in their own beds. Lord Jaysis lads, this is scraping the bottom of the barrel. the Dubs play away matches in the League. their opponents in Leinster are usually well able to travel on the day - or you should ask Sean Boylan about how he felt travelling the night before bonded his team. And as for when it gets to the All Ireland series, if this is such an issue, lobby your county board to have the quarter finals taken out of Croker. Or to move the National Stadium. Saying the dubs have an advantage because of where they were born is more than slightly ridiculous.

Defeatist stuff Dinny - and I know we have only a few Kerry lads on the board (are there any left at all?) but I'm damn sure the likes of MikeSheehy and Kerrymike wouldn't be on here cribbing about the unfairness of Dublin winning.

And there are also lies, damn lies and statistics - if we are operating from an assumption that back in the day Dublin played less games in Croke Park and they now play far more, I'd like to look at how many times their opponents have played there - Meath, Kildare, Offaly, Wicklow, Westmeath, Wexford and Laois have all played Leinster first round and quarter final games as part of double headers (wrongly IMHO) much more regularly over the past ten years then before.

So the image of country lads coming up with tousled hair, blade of grass in their gobs and hoping to do the Museum tour after they get hammered by the Dubs is a bit of a laugh - all Leinster counties have far more experience of Croke Park then they would have had back in the 80s and 90s. Now I will concede, Croke for Westmeath say, is a different place when facing the dubs with a 50/60k crowd, then when facing Wexford as the first part of a double header. But unfortunately we can't ask our fans not to come just so we can provide a strictly balanced experience.


Croke Park is now the defacto home of the Leinster Championship - again I think that is wrong when you see the excitement in places like Navan or Newbridge when they get a derby draw in the qualifiers, but lads they had to pay for the place. Logically having the Dubs there with their 50/60k support was the way to do it.

Lads I think this is all a matter of perspective - in fact I remember severaL commentators in the period 2005/2010 inclusive saying that Croke Park and the expectancy of the Hill was a distinct disadvantage for Dublin players in the Championship - once the Hill went silent and then started getting on the players' backs, the game was lost - eg Tyrone replay 2005, second half v Mayo 2006, Tyrone 2008, Kerry 2009, Meath 2010. In 2010, it was playing in front of smaller less expectant crowds in the qualifiers (albeit in Croker) that led to the teams rehabilitation. Having been there for all those occasions I can say that I and loads of other fans, saw no advantage to us in playing at Croke Park at all, indeed again commentators were saying that it was actively hampering our development.

Now we are stuck with the Spring Series and Rossfan accurately described its genesis - but it has been actively downgraded in terms of the entertainment offered and the crowds are a lot less (20-25k) now then they were when it started 5 years ago. I know that there are a lot of people involved who would much prefer if we went back to Parnell Park for League games and I'd say it won't be long before that is a reality.

It is very hard as a Dublin fan, whose first memories are of 83 and has spent most of my spectating life listening to country guys telling us we should be dominating with the population we have, God aren't ye terrible bottlers, isn't desperate that the GAA isn't stronger in the city, sure ye only fell over the line in 95 - after all that then be told that we are cheating when we are winning. Whatever about extrapolating point advantages from Soccereconomics, the only true fact that I know about any sport is that it is cyclical. Teams have their time and then fade - no matter who you are. The sheer begrudgery displayed towards a Dublin team that not only is successful, but doing it in a way that celebrates some of the best aspects of our games, from some on this board reflects badly on their own counties. It's mind boggling actually (not including you AZ or Dinny in that)

Ringfort, I'd suggest that Kilkenny have an "unfair" advantage over other hurling counties in that they don't even bother paying lip service to football - they just don't promote it and no one pulls them up on it (there were murmurs of this during  their five in a row run but it didn't get traction). As for Kilkenny and Kerry dominating through tradition and excellence, to infer that Dublin did not triumph through traditon and excellence is just manure lads.

The Brogan's dad has three All Ireland medals, their uncle was on the same panel and was a selector on various successful teams. Pat Gilroy's father was intsrumental in St. Vincent's success, Pat has a medal from 95, whilst his selector Mickey Whelan is a direct link back to the fifties era of Dublin men for Dublin teams. David Hickey served as a selector in our 2011 triumph and  Mick Deegan was an All Ireland winner in 95 and serves now. James McCarthy is the son of the famous Maccer, Jack McCaffrey links back to 83 through his father Noel. Going further back Pillar Caffrey who was a selector when Alan Brogan broke in to the team in 2002, is a brother to John Caffrey, a sub in 83, who would have been over teams in St. Declan's that brought on the likes of Senan Connell and the three Brogan brothers.

If any other county's team had such a rich web of connections, tradition and excellence there would be two page spreads in the Sunday Indo, pictures of flint-eyed men staring over Atlantic waves and banging on about how football is in their blood, they are rooted in the land etc etc

However because they are Dubs they are merely gym monkeys who bought their success and rely on a home advantage to cheat their way to titles.

Please, give us all a break.

Anyway, 15 points - Lord Jaysis what a team.

I don't think O'Carroll is close to being the best FB in the country. A few I'd rate above him and more still I wouldn't be willing to rate any lower than him. Last year's All-Star was pretty clearly undeserving because he had a pretty poor year by his own standards.

You don't have anyone he'll be worrying about anyway come championship time. Rory is a class act and doesn't have anything to prove at this juncture.



Derry never turned up and I can't understand why.

A hell of a lot of players worry Rory.

He's a player who I've never understood why he's continually rated above other FBs when there's been so many occasions where he's looked shakey in defence too often for me to rate him that highly. High ball has unnerved him time after time in recent years, last year he was run ragged as many times as he played well.

He's fine on the front foot but I'd take a Caffrekey or a Shields every single time before him. It's the Barcalona syndrome. The backs are good footballers but average to above-average defenders and that is not what you want from someone people are lauding as the best Full-Back in the country. When you can score as much as Dublin do it makes teams desperate and O'Carroll's errors rarely end up finding as much attention as they otherwise would.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I just find the above as bizarre. Particularly the high ball stuff - was it not a month ago when people were berating Mayo for throwing high ball in on top of him as it was meat and drink to him - as it is. The best full back I've seen since Darren Fay to break ball to his corner backs, always willing to link from defence and very sticky. Not flashy at all but that's why I like him.

As for Cafferky in comparison!! Jaysis lads, he's a good footballer but clearly a converted midfielder, and not just because Berno cleaned him last year. He's Mayo's Ross McConnell, a square peg forced into a round hole - well able to high field, but when it comes to the dirty, gritty stuff of sticking hand, boot or head in at the last minute, doesn't come close to Rory.

Rory is in a long line of Dub full backs that may not be the absolute greatest of all time, but are solid, dogged and reliable defenders.

Although I don't agree with his opinion (vehemently) surely he is entitled to give it? AFAIK his original comments were on his Twitter feed (I'll stand to be corrected on this), and if that is the case, then you don't have to follow him. And if the newspapers want to pick up on it, that's their editorial decision to print and the consumer's decision to buy it and read it.

I don't think playing county gives his opinions more weight than the ordinary member - but it surely doesn't give them less?

Mobile tanning salons are on the road as we speak. Brave new world.

[could]

On the surface a  persuasive argument. Read deeper into it and the logic starts to become threadbare.

The justifications for the SKY deal, that it increases the audience and encourages global participation, are fallacies. Up until now, UK Gaels could watch all the games via Premier Sports for £9.99 a month. From now on, assuming they want to watch the games owned by SKY, they will have to pay for both Premier and SKY Sports. As Premier Sports Chief Richard Sweeney said on Wednesday " Our coverage was priced at £9.99 a month. Now UK fans are being asked to fork out huge sums to continue watching on TV."

So the head of a subscription channel bemoans the fact that another subscription channel has the rights to games it previously put behind a pay wall, with the GAA's permission? Once the Setanta deal was signed in 2006, the GAA was in the subscription TV business. Once you lose your virginity, you're no longer a virgin. To pretend any differently is to be guilty of the same hypocrisy Brolly is slating.

The reality is that the deal will dramatically reduce audience exposure. UCD's Dr Paul Rouse landmark research paper "The Impact of Pay TV on Sport (2012)" demonstrates how Pay-TV damages the values of community, access and inclusion. The harshest impact is on kids, people in rural areas, farmers, the elderly and women. In 2006, 255,000 people watched Leinster's away quarter final v Toulouse on RTE. SKY bought the 2007 rights. For Leinster's away quarter final v Wasps in 2007, only 47,000 watched on SKY. The number of people in rural areas watching the game dropped from 111,000 (RTE) to 9,000 (SKY). It is a pattern repeated throughout the research. I asked Paul on Wednesday if the GAA/SKY deal was likely to have a similar impact. His answer "For sure Joe. I find it hard to believe. And the justifications don't hold water. I have never heard such rubbish."

Very disappointing that an academic would go along with Brolly and pick up a pitch fork here. Two very different situations, in that the entire Heineken Cup went to Sky - there is still a huge majority of GAA games available free to air. You could argue that the selling of all the rights to Sky could have the same effect, should it happen - but even then, rugby v gaa is a very bad example. You could argue that the 47000 watching on subscription actually represented rugby's normal constituency, and the 255,000 figure represented people who watched it only because it was available (I'd hesitate to use the word bandwagon, maybe casual consumption is better). The actual figure of committted GAA fans has always been bigger then rugby, though I'm sure there would be some drop off. Just remember that rugby picked up a whole new constituency through the Heineken cup - but these newer fans are easier to lose.

Where do ideals end and business begin? The principle that televised games should be free to air for the people of Ireland would have been an obvious one but its a bit late now. We are left with the depressing situation of Irish Ministers and TDs calling for government intervention, just as they did when rugby was sold.

I don't think it is too late at all. You can be guaranteed that the next Congress will have exactly the kind of debate Joe wants about the character of the organisation. If the deal has only one good aspect, it will have been to encourage that. But this kind of scaremongering is typical of someone associated with RTE. This is a challenge they should be rising to, and they sat at the same table as Sky. Rather than bemoan the loss of our national character, go and show the GAA what they are missing by not having the games on RTE. Sky may have resources, but surely RTE has knowledge, passion and a sense of how important the GAA is to Irish society. And if they don't, they should. If their coverage made it easier for the GAA to make this decision, they owe it to their viewing public to improve.

We should see how this goes, analyse the pros and cons acutely, and then make our decisions with some evidence to refer to. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. There is no gun to our heads. And if it doesn't do what Sky wants it to, they won't be slow in moving on, as anyone who remembers Sky News Ireland will know.

Foster and Allen TV - can't see the appeal myself.

My defence for it is in my posts, rather than your ramblings. I've been here a lot longer than you troll boy, and I'm not going anywhere.

Are you running out of emoticons?

If you're shouting you're losing. You screaming fact doesn't make it a fact, in fact the only fact that we can factually verify, is that you are obsessed with Dublin and quite disturbing with it. fact. Enjoy the golf troll.

I will use more emoticons, thanks. You do owe me an apology as you were wrong, numerous times infact. I haven't lied once either.

Let's see if that is true.

Dublin's current underage dominance is down to money. Fact.

That's a lie - you haven't been able to prove it is down to money. Saying something is a fact doesn't make it a fact. Even David Brent knows that.

When did Kerry get 1.5million for games development per year? How many titles would they when if they were given it

Contradicting yourself again DM - you said a page ago that money doesn't buy titles - so why are you implying it would with Kerry? I thought that only worked with Dublin, according to your "logic". Try and keep your story straight. Lie.

Why do you continue to see Dublin as a charity case the rest of us should pay for?

Never said that, so we'll call this one a lie as well. All I said that resources should be divided according to need, and as our population.....well, you know the rest.

The same could have been said for Dublin hurling a few years ago, why give them the money when they had no interest?

Dublin have always fielded a hurling team - there have been periods where kilkenny have not fielded a football team. Dublin have at different times in their history been competitive at provincial level, especially during the fifties and early sixties, the late eighties and early nineties and now. Kilkenny have never been competitive in football nor wanted to be. There is no equivalence between them. Let's just put this down to your bone laziness and ignorance.

o Dublin's population is about 1.2 million, while Antrims is about 600,000. Dublin receive 1.5 million in games development fund, how much should Antrim receive? How much do they receive? You're the one with the lack of grasp, except for that needle

Well since you are into crude figures, lets say in Antrim that roughly 300,000 of that population don't want and will never want to play Gaelic games. Could be more actually. And let's say that out of the remaining 300,000 at least half that population through either economic factors (Gaelic games participation tends to skew towards more working class areas in urban settings), societal factors (the latent perceived danger of belonging to a GAA club in a hostile enviroment) sporting factors (preferring soccer or rugby etc) that maybe half that again will not be playing, especially given the isolated nature of the main hurling areas. Factor in again that the Dublin population is actually up around 1.6 million with Fingal and Dun Laoghaire included and that, unlike Antrim, 50% of the population are not hostile to the GAA. so there is a lot more people to be possibly swayed. You can do the maths yourself.

So, you'd like to thank the rest of the country for the hurling titles they won for Dublin yes? You should also thank us for the titles you've won in recent years as it's been won with our money!

Another lie - never said anything like this - quote it if I did. If you can stop lying. Oh, i forgot, you can't stop lying or your entire argument falls apart! The titles we won in recent years have been won by Dublin players, matching and beating the best - and unlike yourself, the players of Mayo and Kerry didn't make up false excuses about being beaten by money. They have more self respect - the same self respect Dublin showed when being beaten by Mayo in 2012 - despite us trying to buy the Sam, according to you.

Your idea of the GAA seems to be about what it can do for Dublin, that's not what the GAA is about. You have a lot to learn son.

My idea of the GAA is love your club, love your county, do your best to contribute. Which has always been the attitude in Dublin GAA. But we can't do anything if your county can't get it together - that's up to you to organize, to improve, to get involved in. That is far more constructive than whinging about people buying titles. Look at what longford U-21s did against us last year - this supposedly invincible machine. You're a pathetic defeatist who'd prefer to blame a county that has three All Irelands in the last thirty years for his woes! Ok, we'll include 83 and say 4. We're the Deathstar and you're the Rebel Alliance. Grow up DM

Oh and by the way, I'm not your son, pal. God forbid - but i wouldn't think a troll like you, beavering away in front of his keyboard all day and night is going to be troubling the gene pool anytime soon.