Messages

[Minister to bar national sports stadium at Maze]

I thought SF were in favour if the Long Kesh thing but intransigent Unionists blocked it???
Then the 3 stadIan upgrades was the compromise.

It was the three sporting organisations that wanted their own separate stadia that ended the single stadium but if SF had the vision to see how a GAA stadium alongside the RUAS site could have created all of the infrastructure needed for its proposed museum to include a H block from the prison.  The McGuinness and Robinson fell out about the museum/centre. DUP vetoed the museum/centre and SF vetoed the expenditure to build a proper motorway connection for the site to spite the users of the RUAS site and now the two helicopter ambulances based at the Maze site.

This is incorrect.

Both UR and the IFA agreed to migrate to the Maze - the then IFA CEO, Howard Wells, confirmed as such in a letter to the Sports Minister, Edwin Poots, in 2007:
"May I reiterate the IFA's position. On 20 January 2006 we made a commitment to work with central government to deliver a new multi-purpose stadium on the site of the Maze with certain caveats - that the business plan proved viable; that the planned infrastructure at the site was conducive to promoting sport; that government would commit to maintaining Windsor Park at viable levels in the interim and that the Licence Agreement between the IFA and Linfield FC could be resolved."
He went on:
"So, further procrastination has the potential to lead us nowhere other than down a blind alley. There appears to be no commitment from the public or private sectors to fund a Belfast located stadium in the foreseeable future, or to pay for the refit of Windsor Park. It is unlikely that any Belfast driven initiative will sit well with the concept of a shared future. The IFA is very keen to work with the other two sports to drive change and to market sport across all the sections of the community."
And:
"Thirteen of the sixteen senior clubs are totally supportive of a stadium being built at the Maze. It is within an hour of almost all destinations in Northern Ireland. The MORI poll commissioned by the IFA in 2005 suggested that there was support for a new stadium at the Maze and from families and females who currently do not attend."

Now Wells was certainly a politician (small "p"), and such a view was unpopular with NI football fans. Nonetheless, this was the IFA's official position right up until the project was canned.

And further, the stadium was canned not due to "Unionist intransigence" (though there were disputes over issues like the Museum etc); rather it was entirely due to DCAL's civil servants concluding that the business case for a Maze stadium did not add up, therefore public money could/should not be spent for this purpose.

Instead, it was agreed to split the money up between the three bodies to spend on individual stadia in Belfast. UR appears to be happy with the revamped Ravenhill and the IFA, organisation and fans, are happy with the rebuilt Windsor (even if some now feel its capacity is too small).

Complete c0ck. A lame attempt to rewrite history.

The truth is simple. And the simple truth is that the Maze shared stadium was torpedoed by Unionist opposition. The three sports bodies had agreed to a share a single stadium, but it was grassroots pressure on the DUP from the likes of the NI Supporters and EvilGenius that led the DUP to scupper the plans. The fear of playing NI games in a half empty bowl haunted them.

Here's a refresher from The Guardian, summarises it perfectly:

Minister to bar national sports stadium at Maze

· Unionists opposed £140m scheme at former prison
· Decision is blow to SDLP and Sinn Féin

A plan to build a £140m national sports stadium on the site of the Maze prison in Northern Ireland is to be abandoned amid opposition from unionists.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/may/02/northernireland.northernirelandfootballteam

Your "truth" may be simple, but I prefer to deal in facts.

First, I was responding to 'Owen Brannigan' when he claimed that "it was the three sporting organisations that wanted their own separate stadia". And whatever the position of the GAA and UR, neither of whom was in desperate need, the IFA had no choice, since Windsor was deemed unfit by FIFA to stage international matches (it had been living on borrowed time as it was). And in the absence of any alternative (neither Ravenhill nor Casement met FIFA requirements), they would be forced to play their "home" games outside of NI. Therefore they were entirely dependant upon what was on offer from HMG, i.e. the Maze. Which explains the Wells letter I quoted.
As for opposition by NI fans and me(!), if you imagine that the IFA were listening to the fans, then you're deluded, seriously deluded! Or did you not actually read the Wells letter, where he claimed it was supported by the fans?

Second, the position of "Unionists" was decidedly mixed. Edwin Poots, for example, was all for a redevelopment of the Maze, including the stadium - it was in his constituency, after all. And colleagues in the DUP also recognised that the proposed stadium was only one element of a potentially huge regeneration project for the site (houses, retail, industry etc), which would be in a majority Unionist area.

However, it was without question a recommendation by civil servants in DCAL in 2008/09 that the Stadium would not be economically feasible on that site which ultimately scuppered it.

Which explains why as late as September 2012, Peter Robinson was still pursuing the redevelopment of the site by appointing his old buddy, Terence Branigan, to be Chairman of the Maze/Long Kesh Development Corporation:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19543575

Which is not to say that the Conflict Transformation Centre wasn't controversial - Jim Allister referred to "The 180-degree turn which the DUP has perfected on the Maze Shrine" - and therefore a complicating factor. But following the Crash of 2008, the whole project ultimately collapsed before it ever got built, because the private investment element necessary to the project's overall success was not forthcoming.

P.S. Of course NI fans were opposed to playing in a half empty bowl in a field in the middle of nowhere - but that was nothing to do with sharing with the other tenants. After all, if you're playing in a stadium on a Saturday evening, why should it matter if the rugby boys had played there the previous Friday evening, or the GAA boys would be playing the following Sunday afternoon? Fact is, it would have been entirely unsuitable for our needs, as the subsequent successful redevelopment of WP at significantly lower cost has demonstrated.

None of which alters the simple truth - the Maze shared stadium was torpedoed by Unionists.

From The Guardian report - https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/may/02/northernireland.northernirelandfootballteam

But the two main unionist parties - with some individual exceptions - were opposed to the project. Some soccer supporters' clubs have also campaigned against it.

Senior sources inside Robinson's Democratic Unionist party said the Maze stadium was "dead in the water". The DUP has refused officially to comment, but one DUP source said: "It will come within the next four weeks, probably before Peter moves from finance to the office of first minister. It will be a popular move within the party, the majority of whom hate the idea of building a national stadium anywhere near a shrine to terrorists.

"The party has also been listening to the majority of Northern Ireland football fans, who are resolutely opposed to moving to the Maze."

[Minister to bar national sports stadium at Maze]

I thought SF were in favour if the Long Kesh thing but intransigent Unionists blocked it???
Then the 3 stadIan upgrades was the compromise.

It was the three sporting organisations that wanted their own separate stadia that ended the single stadium but if SF had the vision to see how a GAA stadium alongside the RUAS site could have created all of the infrastructure needed for its proposed museum to include a H block from the prison.  The McGuinness and Robinson fell out about the museum/centre. DUP vetoed the museum/centre and SF vetoed the expenditure to build a proper motorway connection for the site to spite the users of the RUAS site and now the two helicopter ambulances based at the Maze site.

This is incorrect.

Both UR and the IFA agreed to migrate to the Maze - the then IFA CEO, Howard Wells, confirmed as such in a letter to the Sports Minister, Edwin Poots, in 2007:
"May I reiterate the IFA's position. On 20 January 2006 we made a commitment to work with central government to deliver a new multi-purpose stadium on the site of the Maze with certain caveats - that the business plan proved viable; that the planned infrastructure at the site was conducive to promoting sport; that government would commit to maintaining Windsor Park at viable levels in the interim and that the Licence Agreement between the IFA and Linfield FC could be resolved."
He went on:
"So, further procrastination has the potential to lead us nowhere other than down a blind alley. There appears to be no commitment from the public or private sectors to fund a Belfast located stadium in the foreseeable future, or to pay for the refit of Windsor Park. It is unlikely that any Belfast driven initiative will sit well with the concept of a shared future. The IFA is very keen to work with the other two sports to drive change and to market sport across all the sections of the community."
And:
"Thirteen of the sixteen senior clubs are totally supportive of a stadium being built at the Maze. It is within an hour of almost all destinations in Northern Ireland. The MORI poll commissioned by the IFA in 2005 suggested that there was support for a new stadium at the Maze and from families and females who currently do not attend."

Now Wells was certainly a politician (small "p"), and such a view was unpopular with NI football fans. Nonetheless, this was the IFA's official position right up until the project was canned.

And further, the stadium was canned not due to "Unionist intransigence" (though there were disputes over issues like the Museum etc); rather it was entirely due to DCAL's civil servants concluding that the business case for a Maze stadium did not add up, therefore public money could/should not be spent for this purpose.

Instead, it was agreed to split the money up between the three bodies to spend on individual stadia in Belfast. UR appears to be happy with the revamped Ravenhill and the IFA, organisation and fans, are happy with the rebuilt Windsor (even if some now feel its capacity is too small).

Complete c0ck. A lame attempt to rewrite history.

The truth is simple. And the simple truth is that the Maze shared stadium was torpedoed by Unionist opposition. The three sports bodies had agreed to a share a single stadium, but it was grassroots pressure on the DUP from the likes of the NI Supporters and EvilGenius that led the DUP to scupper the plans. The fear of playing NI games in a half empty bowl haunted them.

Here's a refresher from The Guardian, summarises it perfectly:

Minister to bar national sports stadium at Maze

· Unionists opposed £140m scheme at former prison
· Decision is blow to SDLP and Sinn Féin

A plan to build a £140m national sports stadium on the site of the Maze prison in Northern Ireland is to be abandoned amid opposition from unionists.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/may/02/northernireland.northernirelandfootballteam

[Daniel Mulhall, Irish Ambassador: Why I hope the UK will remain in the European Union]

Daniel Mulhall, Irish Ambassador: Why I hope the UK will remain in the European Union

"The current open border between North and South in Ireland could not be guaranteed to continue unchanged in a post-Brexit scenario."

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2016/05/25/daniel-mulhall-irish-ambassador-why-i-hope-the-uk-will-remain-in-the-european-union/

Charlie Flanagan: Brexit may mean border controls

http://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/05/25/news/charlie-flanagan-brexit-may-mean-border-immigration-controls-531312/

See my post above. I didn't read the petition, and the picture made me think he was on about Europe in general. Apologies for the confusion. And I don't think there is going to be any new border patrols between NI and ROI.

One hopes that Brexit will fail. If it does not there might not be any problems in Ireland at the border, but presumably the Brits want to change something in relation to borders, otherwise they would not have all this palaver, and that change is hardly likely to be positive, however limited it might be.

I'd be amazed if Brexit gets a yes. I predict at least 60% vote to stay.

A Brexit will only get a No vote if people actually get off the sofa and vote for it, or even better campaign against it.
That's why I want people to sign and share the petition.

A Brexit might seem moronic to most sane people, paticularly young, or degree educated.
Particularly so in Northern Ireland which would bear the brunt.

A Brexit would have to mean some form of border control between Ireland and Northern Ireland, in terms of both trade and immigration.

The problem is that in England, particularly SE England, there's a huge constituency, a lot of it little Englander, and anti-migration, that believe the diet of anti-EU garbage coming from the likes of the
Mail/Sun/Express. And they don't give a sh1t about Northern Ireland or anywhere else tbh.

That's why the threat is real - particularly if enough young people don't vote.

Can't agree with you "No Wides".

I want to stop this happening again.

Sign the petition at https://t.co/mPzeeoWZR9 and share.

Please sign our petition to stop border controls.

Please share @Irish4Europe

https://t.co/mPzeeoWZR9

Time for the Ulster Council to cop themselves on and realise that they will never be able to develop a stadium in Anderstown without spending enormous time energy and resources on planning issues and a PR disaster to boot. Time to look elsewhere. Belfast is to much of a tinder box of secterianism and no matter where in Belfast outside of the West Belfast you will encounter objections and obstacles which will be put in place. Casement Park is a dead duck get it up the M1 to Dungannon, (I hear Ann Street is up for Sale by the Banks) were it should have been in the first place to service the needs of Ulster and not for soothing the egos of a few members of the Ulster Council.

I still think that any new stadium should be in Belfast, to
1. Increase the GAA's profile.
2. Maximise income from holding events such as concerts and conferences

A bigger site, somewhere in Greater Belfast could and should be found.

If Belfast wants the benefits a 40k fully covered stadium can bring, it should stump up some of the cost, eg by gifting a site it controls.  Like Liverpool have done with Stanley Park, or Cork have done for Pairc Ui Chaoimh.
Musgrave Park, owned by Belfast City Council & 300m away from Casement would be spot on.

Politically a more neutral location, Musgrave Park would also attract more non-match day income.
A much bigger site, a modern wrap around bowl stadium could be developed.
And no road closures would be needed.

My own suggestion was Musgrave Park. Not averse to Lough Foreshore either. GAA should think about holding beauty contest for councils that want it, best overall package gets it.

And residents of Stockman's Lane? Not a given that BCC will just hand over land for free either.

Residents much fewer in number, and much much further way from stadium than in Casement, that's for sure! Stadium would be on extreme fringe away from residents. Its's a very big site, allowing egress and exit with minimal impact. Would be furtehr away from housing than Twickenham stadium for example.

Lough foreshore eliminates problem completely. As would a Dungannon site, although the Dungannon site would lack the wider social infrastucture, large number of hotels, etc to maiximise the overall economic return. One thin's for sure, we shouldn't site it anywhere without the local council coming up with an enticing offer in return.

Musgrave is a serious option.  I honestly think Dungannon is equally a serious option.  If they built a stadium in Dungannon it would help seriously regenerate that area west of the river Bann.  ID fix up Casement for Antrim in the same manner as Armagh has been done and build at Dungannon.   You could have all the concerts, you would want there.

Totally agree.

I'd add that Dungannon / Belfast should compete to get it. Concerts, conferences and matches would give a hell of an economic boost worth fighting over.

An area could have been Musgrave park, straight off the motorway and a large enough area for that type of stadium......

Couldn't agree more. No brainer.
It's, what 500m away from Casement, just the other side of the motorway junction, and it's

• closer to the railway stations
• has no neighbouring residents to object to the height of the stadium, allowing everybody to have an optimal view with a roof over their heads
• has no neighbouring residents to object to holding concerts
• is big enough to allow for safe dispersal of crowds without having to close main roads/rapid tranport busways for hours at a time
• big enough to cater for required parking without having to pour millions into the ground to build an underground car park
• will attract more custom, and still be close enough to West Belfast to generate the mooted economic benefits
• council owned, so should in theory be able to acquire easily (or preferably freely, possibly in return for allowing one non - gaa event per year?)

All SF/SDLP/Alliance city councillors should be thinking about the benefits a 40k, truly covered modern bowl design could bring to Belfast city.

More Musgrave advantages

Some highly critical comments on Casement's poor "Optimum Viewing Circles" from somebody who appears to know what they're talking about on an architecture forum

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1563744

I actually thought that once the GAA appointed Populous to design Casement Park stadium I thought we'd get a truly great stadium as these guys have so much experience in sport stadium design.

The first thing that jumped out at me is the fact that the stadium has no continuity. None of the stands are the same size, not one, even all the four corners are different sizes. To me this just looks silly and will take away from the aesthetics of any stadium. Even Croke Park and the Aviva look terrible, and they have unity on three sides.
The fact that the Andersonstown Road Stand is so big shouts out to be that they needed to increase the capacity to get it up to 40,000. So they just kept going back until the numbers added up. This is terrible design. The viewing distance from the back of this stand will be far to large.

In the case of a gaelic football the preferred viewing distance should be no more than 150m between the extreme corner of the field and spectator's eye, with an absolute maximum of 190m. Setting out these distances from the extreme viewing positions, such as the diagonally opposed corners of a playing field, gives a preferred viewing zone and their average configuration suggests a circle struck from the centre spot on the field, generally referred to as the 'optimum viewing circle. This circle in the case of football and rugby would have a radius of 90m.

This might sound complicated stuff but i'm sure the people at Populous know this, and if they don't they are in the wrong business. What this means is that well over half the capacity of the Andersonstown Road Stand will be outside the optimum viewing circle. The largest stands should run along the side of the pitch in the long direction.

This isn't good enough for a modern stadium.

It will definitely not be a modern stadium if the entire thing is not roofed. I hate having a ticket in Croke Park on the lower tier of the cusack stand when it rains, and lets face it we live in Ireland .. It rains

Read the above about optimal viewing circles

Regardless of anything it appears there are those on here and elsewhere who dont want Casement to happen. I find it amazing that GAA people have mixed opinions on wanting to establish a landmark presence in Belfast at the home of its most famous ground, after the success of Croke Park. The GAA needs a strong Antrim as we need a strong Dublin and this stadium provides a focus point for excellence and development.  I also wonder about the Antrim county boards role in all this, they need to be steadfastly encouraging this opportunity to happen.

I agree that any new stadium should be in Belfast, to
1. Increase the GAA's profile.
2. Maximise income from holding events such as concerts and conferences

A bigger site, somewhere in Greater Belfast should be found.
Ideally, if Belfast wants the benefits a 40k fully covered stadium can bring, it should stump up some of the cost, eg by gifting a site it controls. 

Like Liverpool have done with Stanley Park, or Cork have done for Pairc Ui Chaoimh.

Musgrave Park, owned by Belfast City Council & 300m away from Casement is ideally suited.
Politically a more neutral location, it would also attract more non-match day income.
It is much bigger site, allowing a truly exemplar design 40k fully covered stadium to be developed.
Something really tall and high impact to advertise the GAA and Irish dimension to our city.

It is big enough to allow crowds to exit the stadium and disperse without having to close neighbouring arterial routes. And closer to train stations as well.

Car parking and other ancilliary building can be done at ground level, not by building expensive underground concrete bunkers.

Bump

[Hard to see a solution of this that will satisfy all parties.]

I actually disagree with him and other proponents of the redevelopment. The residents are getting a raw deal should these plans go ahead.

The Ulster Council are also getting bad press but it is worth remembering the political pressure being put on them. Hard to see a solution of this that will satisfy all parties.

I do see an easy solution.

Get talking to the Alliance, Sinn Fein and SDLP on Belfast City Council.

Tell them that we'd like to develop a genuine exemplar landmark 40k, fully covered stadium in Musgrave Park.
If necesary, the development could be on some sort of partnership basis.

Inform them that if the council can't provide the site on agreeable terms, then we will take our stadium development elsewhere, eg Dungannon.

Emphasise the economic gains that having such a stadium would have for Belfast, eg GAA events, International Rules, Concerts, Conferences and the Rugby World Cup.

If Alliance/Belfast City Council don't co-operate, then run a beauty contest amongst locations that would like the investment. See what we can get in return, eg sites, infrastructure, facilitating development, etc.

Bump

Time for the Ulster Council to cop themselves on and realise that they will never be able to develop a stadium in Anderstown without spending enormous time energy and resources on planning issues and a PR disaster to boot. Time to look elsewhere. Belfast is to much of a tinder box of secterianism and no matter where in Belfast outside of the West Belfast you will encounter objections and obstacles which will be put in place. Casement Park is a dead duck get it up the M1 to Dungannon, (I hear Ann Street is up for Sale by the Banks) were it should have been in the first place to service the needs of Ulster and not for soothing the egos of a few members of the Ulster Council.

I still think that any new stadium should be in Belfast, to
1. Increase the GAA's profile.
2. Maximise income from holding events such as concerts and conferences

A bigger site, somewhere in Greater Belfast could and should be found.

If Belfast wants the benefits a 40k fully covered stadium can bring, it should stump up some of the cost, eg by gifting a site it controls.  Like Liverpool have done with Stanley Park, or Cork have done for Pairc Ui Chaoimh.
Musgrave Park, owned by Belfast City Council & 300m away from Casement would be spot on.

Politically a more neutral location, Musgrave Park would also attract more non-match day income.
A much bigger site, a modern wrap around bowl stadium could be developed.
And no road closures would be needed.

My own suggestion was Musgrave Park. Not averse to Lough Foreshore either. GAA should think about holding beauty contest for councils that want it, best overall package gets it.

The green light may only be 3 weeks away. Days really!

perhaps,  but just watch Poots and co throwing every possible delay against it at the planning stage.
For an insight, just look at how they delayed a decision for the Bryansford, County Down application.

I hate to say I told you so. But I did. Panned out pretty much as predicted. From 2010. The site that's too small made it easy for them.