So what do ye think of the black card rule now?

[Catch and Kick]

Yes, because punishing the shitehawkery that can occur around frees would transform football into a vastly different sport Bear in mind too that the 40m punishment isn't a new rule just a more severe version of an existing one. But your probably right, if that was voted in the manliness would be taken out and the underage coaches and sandwich makers would walk away in droves bemoaning what had become of our great game.

I have never once mentioned anything to do with manliness. But you, of course, as always are right, the spectacle of stopping the game every 3 mins (because there's so many rules) moving the ball 40m into the scoring area, waiting until the dead ball specialist (probably the goalkeeper) sets themselves to take a free pot shot a goal would have the turnstiles ticking and the TV audiences enthralled. There'd be mountains of scores and everyone would be happy. But someone would moan (probably Joe Brolly) that half the game is just watching keepers kick frees, but you'd introduce a new rule to ban keepers kicking frees, then most likely another new rule to put a 30 second clock on free takers, etc etc until perfection in the game was achieved and we had the most regulated game in modern sport.

All I'm arguing is, keep it as simple as possible and enforce the rules as they stand. The problem was never really the rules, it was the implementation of the rules - introducing more rules doesn't solve that problem.

Here here.

[Zulu]

I have never once mentioned anything to do with manliness. But you, of course, as always are right,

You sound like a child arguing with a sibling now. The point of a discussion board is to discuss.debate points of viewing it not?

the spectacle of stopping the game every 3 mins (because there's so many rules)

That makes absolutely no sense, the rules are there and what's been discussed is a rule that already exists.

moving the ball 40m into the scoring area, waiting until the dead ball specialist (probably the goalkeeper) sets themselves to take a free pot shot a goal would have the turnstiles ticking and the TV audiences enthralled.

Sounds exactly like the doomsday merchants whenever a change is suggested. Once this rule was brought in, you'd be lucky to see it used once every 2 or 3 games as lads would know it isn't worth fannying about with a free a risk turning it into a score-able one. 

All I'm arguing is, keep it as simple as possible and enforce the rules as they stand. The problem was never really the rules, it was the implementation of the rules - introducing more rules doesn't solve that problem.

The rules aren't fine though, that's the problem. It's easy for lads, me included, to say refs should dish out yellows or reds etc. but giving a guy a yellow early in a game for that type of thing is harsh and giving it late might be no deterrent. This was a good deterrent which is why it would have worked brilliantly.

Anyway it's not in so I'll leave it at that.

[take_yer_points]

The rules aren't fine though, that's the problem. It's easy for lads, me included, to say refs should dish out yellows or reds etc. but giving a guy a yellow early in a game for that type of thing is harsh and giving it late might be no deterrent. This was a good deterrent which is why it would have worked brilliantly.

What has the timing of giving a yellow card got to do with the harshness of it? Would it be less harsh to give a yellow after 50 minutes rather than 5 minutes if the relevant penalty is a yellow card?

[BennyHarp]

I have never once mentioned anything to do with manliness. But you, of course, as always are right,

You sound like a child arguing with a sibling now. The point of a discussion board is to discuss.debate points of viewing it not?

This is in response to the sarcastic and doomsday nature of your post earlier.

Yes, because punishing the shitehawkery that can occur around frees would transform football into a vastly different sport Bear in mind too that the 40m punishment isn't a new rule just a more severe version of an existing one. But your probably right, if that was voted in the manliness would be taken out and the underage coaches and sandwich makers would walk away in droves bemoaning what had become of our great game.

Your dismissive comments throughout this thread, (I've picked a few egs just from the past few pages such as; "that's a ridiculous comment", " that makes absolutely no sense") and even dismissing the comments of Kevin Cassidy, not to mention the siblings comment display a side to your debating skills which are hardly parliamentarian, so I too will leave it at that.

[Zulu]

Why not just come up with a new sport with the rules that you would like?

Benny, you seem to be taking a moral ground discussing this when the above was your first contribution to my comment on the 40m punishment. I'd regard that as dismissive as anything I've said.

[BennyHarp]

Why not just come up with a new sport with the rules that you would like?

Benny, you seem to be taking a moral ground discussing this when the above was your first contribution to my comment on the 40m punishment. I'd regard that as dismissive as anything I've said.

That's a ridiculous comment! 

[blewuporstuffed]

On the whole i would agree with Benny, we dont need more rules, we just need a clarification of some of the existing ones and consistent implementation of them.

I agree that body checking off the ball had become widespread, but the issue was that in general, referees weren't issuing yellows for them, not that we needed a new sanction.
I would have instructed refferees to be stricter in handing out yellows for this to see if it stopped it, before i brought in something as  drastic as the black card.

The pull down 'sean cavanagh ' tackle was a very rare occurance, and in the situatons where is does occur, the black car will be no deterrent at all.

[screenexile]

On the whole i would agree with Benny, we dont need more rules, we just need a clarification of some of the existing ones and consistent implementation of them.

I agree that body checking off the ball had become widespread, but the issue was that in general, referees weren't issuing yellows for them, not that we needed a new sanction.
I would have instructed refferees to be stricter in handing out yellows for this to see if it stopped it, before i brought in something as  drastic as the black card.

The pull down 'sean cavanagh ' tackle was a very rare occurance, and in the situatons where is does occur, the black car will be no deterrent at all.

Ah here... if the Black Card was in place there was no way Cavanagh would have made the tackle in the first place!! Big players do not want to sit on the bench and there's no way Cavanagh would have taken one for the team with 22 minutes left and Tyrone only winning by 2 points!

[blewuporstuffed]

i disagree.
In a club game at the weekend,we were a point down with time almost up and pushing for an equaliser, we were breaking forward when an oposition player hauled down the man on the ball in the middle of the field.
The fact he knew he was going to get a  black card made NO difference whatsoever.

If its earlier in the game, maybe the player would think twice, but then a player is less likely to do it then anyway as there is usually enough time to get the score back.
The sean cavanagh incident is a very rare one and we seem to feel we need to reinvent the rules in order to deal with it.

[AZOffaly]

People keep talking about dragging lads down to stop a score, and I think that's a very narrow definition of cynicism. In my view, the main benefit is to stop exactly what blewuporstuffed talks about. This tactic of the deliberate foul in midfield, or even more often in the forwards, was what was most annoying to me. I don't think a machine gun would have stopped Sean Cavanagh doing what he had to do v Monaghan, and if the same situation occurs this year towards the end of a game, I'd expect the exact same thing to happen.

No, to me the major benefit is the cheap foul. The easy drag down in the forwards when you turn the ball over so that your defence can 'get set' and everyone can funnel back. Kerry gave an exhibition of this type of foul v Cavan last year, and while they are obviously not the only ones who perfected it, that day was exhibit A.

If the black card does nothing else but eradicate this sort of thing, at least in the majority of the game, then it will have served us well. You will always have the risk/reward factor where a lad might take a hit for the team, but even at that at least the rest of the game should have been free of that sort of foul.

[Zulu]

Exactly, if the punishment was knee capping for dragging a guy down with a minute left fellas would still do it. As AZ said, it's the cheap foul that the black card has eliminated and I'd agree with Screen, with 22 minutes left I don't think Cavanagh would commit that foul this year, if there is 2 minutes left he will but I'd doubt he'd do it with 22 minutes left.

[take_yer_points]

People keep talking about dragging lads down to stop a score, and I think that's a very narrow definition of cynicism. In my view, the main benefit is to stop exactly what blewuporstuffed talks about. This tactic of the deliberate foul in midfield, or even more often in the forwards, was what was most annoying to me. I don't think a machine gun would have stopped Sean Cavanagh doing what he had to do v Monaghan, and if the same situation occurs this year towards the end of a game, I'd expect the exact same thing to happen.

No, to me the major benefit is the cheap foul. The easy drag down in the forwards when you turn the ball over so that your defence can 'get set' and everyone can funnel back. Kerry gave an exhibition of this type of foul v Cavan last year, and while they are obviously not the only ones who perfected it, that day was exhibit A.

If the black card does nothing else but eradicate this sort of thing, at least in the majority of the game, then it will have served us well. You will always have the risk/reward factor where a lad might take a hit for the team, but even at that at least the rest of the game should have been free of that sort of foul.

Going by the rulebook, would this have been a yellow card offence last year? Or only a free kick? Cavanagh got a yellow for his I think

[AZOffaly]

People keep talking about dragging lads down to stop a score, and I think that's a very narrow definition of cynicism. In my view, the main benefit is to stop exactly what blewuporstuffed talks about. This tactic of the deliberate foul in midfield, or even more often in the forwards, was what was most annoying to me. I don't think a machine gun would have stopped Sean Cavanagh doing what he had to do v Monaghan, and if the same situation occurs this year towards the end of a game, I'd expect the exact same thing to happen.

No, to me the major benefit is the cheap foul. The easy drag down in the forwards when you turn the ball over so that your defence can 'get set' and everyone can funnel back. Kerry gave an exhibition of this type of foul v Cavan last year, and while they are obviously not the only ones who perfected it, that day was exhibit A.

If the black card does nothing else but eradicate this sort of thing, at least in the majority of the game, then it will have served us well. You will always have the risk/reward factor where a lad might take a hit for the team, but even at that at least the rest of the game should have been free of that sort of foul.

Going by the rulebook, would this have been a yellow card offence last year? Or only a free kick? Cavanagh got a yellow for his I think

If it happened way up in the forwards, you might *,might* see a yellow card, but more often than not it was a 'tick' or else just a free. Teams knew this which is why they did it.

[take_yer_points]

People keep talking about dragging lads down to stop a score, and I think that's a very narrow definition of cynicism. In my view, the main benefit is to stop exactly what blewuporstuffed talks about. This tactic of the deliberate foul in midfield, or even more often in the forwards, was what was most annoying to me. I don't think a machine gun would have stopped Sean Cavanagh doing what he had to do v Monaghan, and if the same situation occurs this year towards the end of a game, I'd expect the exact same thing to happen.

No, to me the major benefit is the cheap foul. The easy drag down in the forwards when you turn the ball over so that your defence can 'get set' and everyone can funnel back. Kerry gave an exhibition of this type of foul v Cavan last year, and while they are obviously not the only ones who perfected it, that day was exhibit A.

If the black card does nothing else but eradicate this sort of thing, at least in the majority of the game, then it will have served us well. You will always have the risk/reward factor where a lad might take a hit for the team, but even at that at least the rest of the game should have been free of that sort of foul.

Going by the rulebook, would this have been a yellow card offence last year? Or only a free kick? Cavanagh got a yellow for his I think

If it happened way up in the forwards, you might *,might* see a yellow card, but more often than not it was a 'tick' or else just a free. Teams knew this which is why they did it.

I'd agree with that. My issue with the rules is that there is nothing in the rulebook about where the foul happens on the pitch having an impact on the sanction - Cavanagh got a yellow, but up the field it probably wouldn't have been as you said. If the rules were followed and yellow cards were issued for all instances of that type of foul then a black card wouldn't have been needed.

Zulu mentioned a few posts back about a yellow being harsh for a type of foul early in the game and we've all seen the early hits not penalised the same as they are later in the game. If the rules were applied consistently no matter about the number of minutes into the match, the area on the pitch the foul happens, the level of the game, the team playing, the referee on duty or any other variable in a match - the rules would have been fine without the black card. The inconsistent implementation of them was, is and will be the problem.

[blewuporstuffed]

If it happened way up in the forwards, you might *,might* see a yellow card, but more often than not it was a 'tick' or else just a free. Teams knew this which is why they did it.

But this is exactly my point, why not try and stop this thing by enforcing teh rules that are there first rather than bringing in a whole new sanction?

The fact the game is refereed completely differently in the 'attacking' and the 'defending' half of the field is an equally frustrating thing, but slightly off topic.