Most likely provincial finalists

[Armagh18]

Cavan will have to reach UF to qualify for Sam so they'll be bursting the boilers to get there.
Derry to get there too.
Mayowestros  v Sligo in Connacht
Dublin v Meath in Leinster
Kerry v Cork in Munster

I'm not sure that will make any difference. I'm sure they'd prefer to be in Sam Maguire but they have no chance of competing to win Sam whereas they'd have a good chance of winning a Tailteamm Cup. Outside of Dublin, Derry and at a push Kildare, Cork and Meath, none of the other Div 2 counties will compete at the business end of the championship.

I get what you mean, but we want to be up. If we get into Sam, we'll have got to an Ulster final, so will be at the level to be competitive. That says more to me than playing teams in the Tier 2 competition. For all that the Tailteann is bigged up to be, it is a good competition for some, but not for the teams who probably shouldn't be there or at least have the ability to play Sam to a good level. At the end of the day the reward for winning it is you don't play it again which says a lot. All I feel it does is create a very clear divide and teams down there can't get much better as they're only playing themselves which creates a ceiling, while the ladder is pulled up above them and those teams playing each other drive each other on. Division 3 and 4 teams all only play themselves all league and again in their Championship (bar the odd provincial game v D1/D2 teams should the draw fall that way). I say get up and get up quick before the gap widens

At least theres plenty of chances to get out of the TC- win it or get the finger out in the league and get to a decent level. I don't think provincial finalists should get to Sam though, just winners.

[seafoid]

They need 16 plus 16. 4x4x2
Only provincial winners probably wouldn't work.

[Rossfan]

Of course it would
Last year's Sam and TC winners, this year's 4 Provincial Champions and the 10 highest League teams.
Dreadnought making a great case for the abolition of Club Intermediate and Junior Championships.

[Dreadnought]

Cavan will have to reach UF to qualify for Sam so they'll be bursting the boilers to get there.
Derry to get there too.
Mayowestros  v Sligo in Connacht
Dublin v Meath in Leinster
Kerry v Cork in Munster

I'm not sure that will make any difference. I'm sure they'd prefer to be in Sam Maguire but they have no chance of competing to win Sam whereas they'd have a good chance of winning a Tailteamm Cup. Outside of Dublin, Derry and at a push Kildare, Cork and Meath, none of the other Div 2 counties will compete at the business end of the championship.

I get what you mean, but we want to be up. If we get into Sam, we'll have got to an Ulster final, so will be at the level to be competitive. That says more to me than playing teams in the Tier 2 competition. For all that the Tailteann is bigged up to be, it is a good competition for some, but not for the teams who probably shouldn't be there or at least have the ability to play Sam to a good level. At the end of the day the reward for winning it is you don't play it again which says a lot. All I feel it does is create a very clear divide and teams down there can't get much better as they're only playing themselves which creates a ceiling, while the ladder is pulled up above them and those teams playing each other drive each other on. Division 3 and 4 teams all only play themselves all league and again in their Championship (bar the odd provincial game v D1/D2 teams should the draw fall that way). I say get up and get up quick before the gap widens

At least theres plenty of chances to get out of the TC- win it or get the finger out in the league and get to a decent level. I don't think provincial finalists should get to Sam though, just winners.

The thing is though, not all things are created equal. Like Cavan could conceivably get out out of Div3 by winning all games with a great points difference, win the final, and unlike Louth and Limerick last year who got promoted, still not get into Sam. The pathways are not equal. Winning the TC only works for next year, not that year, and is a one off ticket. Teams in certain provinces have an easier path, and this year we have a guaranteed team from Div4 reaching Connacht final and thereby into Sam.

But conversely, just provincial winners would be harsh. As some ones are harder than others, especially Ulster where a Div3 team getting to a final would see you at the very least have to beat 2 Div1 teams. But this won't be rewarded unless you win the final too? I don't have the answer, just pointing out the way things move and swerve annually depending on practically luck of the draw in certain provinces. The layout and qualification for it isn't right yet and needs to be rethought with the correct reward being there

[greatpoint]

Of course it would
Last year's Sam and TC winners, this year's 4 Provincial Champions and the 10 highest League teams.
Dreadnought making a great case for the abolition of Club Intermediate and Junior Championships.

It's quite unlikely that the eventual All-Ireland winners wouldn't come from one of the four provincial champions.

[Dreadnought]

Of course it would
Last year's Sam and TC winners, this year's 4 Provincial Champions and the 10 highest League teams.
Dreadnought making a great case for the abolition of Club Intermediate and Junior Championships.

Think there needs to be more thought to it than that. Getting to a final I think still needs to be rewarded.

Haha yeah i get you. Just think intercounty is different where we have fully linked League and need to take everything that comes with that. I think only Monaghan has something similar, but I'm sure others with knowledge of other county championships can let us know. Just pointing out it isn't perfect and needs tweaking still

[Armagh18]

Cavan will have to reach UF to qualify for Sam so they'll be bursting the boilers to get there.
Derry to get there too.
Mayowestros  v Sligo in Connacht
Dublin v Meath in Leinster
Kerry v Cork in Munster

I'm not sure that will make any difference. I'm sure they'd prefer to be in Sam Maguire but they have no chance of competing to win Sam whereas they'd have a good chance of winning a Tailteamm Cup. Outside of Dublin, Derry and at a push Kildare, Cork and Meath, none of the other Div 2 counties will compete at the business end of the championship.

I get what you mean, but we want to be up. If we get into Sam, we'll have got to an Ulster final, so will be at the level to be competitive. That says more to me than playing teams in the Tier 2 competition. For all that the Tailteann is bigged up to be, it is a good competition for some, but not for the teams who probably shouldn't be there or at least have the ability to play Sam to a good level. At the end of the day the reward for winning it is you don't play it again which says a lot. All I feel it does is create a very clear divide and teams down there can't get much better as they're only playing themselves which creates a ceiling, while the ladder is pulled up above them and those teams playing each other drive each other on. Division 3 and 4 teams all only play themselves all league and again in their Championship (bar the odd provincial game v D1/D2 teams should the draw fall that way). I say get up and get up quick before the gap widens

At least theres plenty of chances to get out of the TC- win it or get the finger out in the league and get to a decent level. I don't think provincial finalists should get to Sam though, just winners.

The thing is though, not all things are created equal. Like Cavan could conceivably get out out of Div3 by winning all games with a great points difference, win the final, and unlike Louth and Limerick last year who got promoted, still not get into Sam. The pathways are not equal. Winning the TC only works for next year, not that year, and is a one off ticket. Teams in certain provinces have an easier path, and this year we have a guaranteed team from Div4 reaching Connacht final and thereby into Sam.

But conversely, just provincial winners would be harsh. As some ones are harder than others, especially Ulster where a Div3 team getting to a final would see you at the very least have to beat 2 Div1 teams. But this won't be rewarded unless you win the final too? I don't have the answer, just pointing out the way things move and swerve annually depending on practically luck of the draw in certain provinces. The layout and qualification for it isn't right yet and needs to be rethought with the correct reward being there

It was Cavan I was sort of thinking of when I said only provincial winners should get through- they're  likely going to win division 3 at a canter this year and could lose a sam maguire place to a shite connacht team purely by luck of the draw (obviously hoping Cavan don't get to an Ulster final this year lol)

[seafoid]

Of course it would
Last year's Sam and TC winners, this year's 4 Provincial Champions and the 10 highest League teams.
Dreadnought making a great case for the abolition of Club Intermediate and Junior Championships.

It's quite unlikely that the eventual All-Ireland winners wouldn't come from one of the four provincial champions.

Dublin and Kerry are a bit off this year. I think it's going to be more open than usual.
There is a 3 way dogfight in Connacht on one side of the draw between Roscommon, Mayo and Galway. 2 of those will  not be in the provincial final.
Derry could lose to Tyrone and win the all Ireland
Armagh could lose to Donegal and do something.

[greatpoint]

Of course it would
Last year's Sam and TC winners, this year's 4 Provincial Champions and the 10 highest League teams.
Dreadnought making a great case for the abolition of Club Intermediate and Junior Championships.

It's quite unlikely that the eventual All-Ireland winners wouldn't come from one of the four provincial champions.

Dublin and Kerry are a bit off this year. I think it's going to be more open than usual.
There is a 3 way dogfight in Connacht on one side of the draw between Roscommon, Mayo and Galway. 2 of those will  not be in the provincial final.
Derry could lose to Tyrone and win the all Ireland
Armagh could lose to Donegal and do something.

Anything is possible in theory, it just hasn't happened since 2010.

[Dreadnought]

Something else I've thought of since the above conversation was broached, is the further qualification. We obviously have the Tailteann winner as only guaranteed at the start of the season. Then your 8 finalists, and then the next 8 (or 9 if the Tailteann winner gets to the final) on League basis.

I've a little problem with this as well. We'll likely run into a situation in future where the bottom end of Division 2 will be the cut off. i.e. 4th and 5th get in, but 6th don't. Let's say we've a situation where these finish level on points, and points difference is used. Pure points difference isn't the best way to split, as one team could have 4 home 3 away games, and vice versa for the other. One may have got the worst performing relegated team at home and run up a good score on the last day in great weather when they're already relegated, the other went away to them on the first day in a low scoring encounter in blizzard conditions when they were up for the fight. Yet come Championship time, we split these 2 to different tiers based on scores back early in the year? I'm uneasy with this. A lot of faults with it are not thought out, and could be uproar if the above happens.

[Captain Obvious]

Cavan will have to reach UF to qualify for Sam so they'll be bursting the boilers to get there.
Derry to get there too.
Mayowestros  v Sligo in Connacht
Dublin v Meath in Leinster
Kerry v Cork in Munster

I'm not sure that will make any difference. I'm sure they'd prefer to be in Sam Maguire but they have no chance of competing to win Sam whereas they'd have a good chance of winning a Tailteamm Cup. Outside of Dublin, Derry and at a push Kildare, Cork and Meath, none of the other Div 2 counties will compete at the business end of the championship.

I get what you mean, but we want to be up. If we get into Sam, we'll have got to an Ulster final, so will be at the level to be competitive. That says more to me than playing teams in the Tier 2 competition. For all that the Tailteann is bigged up to be, it is a good competition for some, but not for the teams who probably shouldn't be there or at least have the ability to play Sam to a good level. At the end of the day the reward for winning it is you don't play it again which says a lot. All I feel it does is create a very clear divide and teams down there can't get much better as they're only playing themselves which creates a ceiling, while the ladder is pulled up above them and those teams playing each other drive each other on. Division 3 and 4 teams all only play themselves all league and again in their Championship (bar the odd provincial game v D1/D2 teams should the draw fall that way). I say get up and get up quick before the gap widens

At least theres plenty of chances to get out of the TC- win it or get the finger out in the league and get to a decent level. I don't think provincial finalists should get to Sam though, just winners.

The thing is though, not all things are created equal. Like Cavan could conceivably get out out of Div3 by winning all games with a great points difference, win the final, and unlike Louth and Limerick last year who got promoted, still not get into Sam. The pathways are not equal. Winning the TC only works for next year, not that year, and is a one off ticket. Teams in certain provinces have an easier path, and this year we have a guaranteed team from Div4 reaching Connacht final and thereby into Sam.

But conversely, just provincial winners would be harsh. As some ones are harder than others, especially Ulster where a Div3 team getting to a final would see you at the very least have to beat 2 Div1 teams. But this won't be rewarded unless you win the final too? I don't have the answer, just pointing out the way things move and swerve annually depending on practically luck of the draw in certain provinces. The layout and qualification for it isn't right yet and needs to be rethought with the correct reward being there

It was Cavan I was sort of thinking of when I said only provincial winners should get through- they're  likely going to win division 3 at a canter this year and could lose a sam maguire place to a shite connacht team purely by luck of the draw (obviously hoping Cavan don't get to an Ulster final this year lol)

Cavan have only themselves to blame if they aren't in the Sam Maguire group stage. Fell to Division four when they should be at the very least a Division two team and wasted their opportunity by not winning the Tailteann cup.

[Dreadnought]

Cavan have only themselves to blame if they aren't in the Sam Maguire group stage. Fell to Division four when they should be at the very least a Division two team and wasted their opportunity by not winning the Tailteann cup.

Way to miss the point that I was trying to make

And remember we had that joke Covid league split on geography in the middle of that. Could easily have been up to Div2 with a proper league and not that setup based off 3 games

[Armagh18]

Cavan will have to reach UF to qualify for Sam so they'll be bursting the boilers to get there.
Derry to get there too.
Mayowestros  v Sligo in Connacht
Dublin v Meath in Leinster
Kerry v Cork in Munster

I'm not sure that will make any difference. I'm sure they'd prefer to be in Sam Maguire but they have no chance of competing to win Sam whereas they'd have a good chance of winning a Tailteamm Cup. Outside of Dublin, Derry and at a push Kildare, Cork and Meath, none of the other Div 2 counties will compete at the business end of the championship.

I get what you mean, but we want to be up. If we get into Sam, we'll have got to an Ulster final, so will be at the level to be competitive. That says more to me than playing teams in the Tier 2 competition. For all that the Tailteann is bigged up to be, it is a good competition for some, but not for the teams who probably shouldn't be there or at least have the ability to play Sam to a good level. At the end of the day the reward for winning it is you don't play it again which says a lot. All I feel it does is create a very clear divide and teams down there can't get much better as they're only playing themselves which creates a ceiling, while the ladder is pulled up above them and those teams playing each other drive each other on. Division 3 and 4 teams all only play themselves all league and again in their Championship (bar the odd provincial game v D1/D2 teams should the draw fall that way). I say get up and get up quick before the gap widens

At least theres plenty of chances to get out of the TC- win it or get the finger out in the league and get to a decent level. I don't think provincial finalists should get to Sam though, just winners.

The thing is though, not all things are created equal. Like Cavan could conceivably get out out of Div3 by winning all games with a great points difference, win the final, and unlike Louth and Limerick last year who got promoted, still not get into Sam. The pathways are not equal. Winning the TC only works for next year, not that year, and is a one off ticket. Teams in certain provinces have an easier path, and this year we have a guaranteed team from Div4 reaching Connacht final and thereby into Sam.

But conversely, just provincial winners would be harsh. As some ones are harder than others, especially Ulster where a Div3 team getting to a final would see you at the very least have to beat 2 Div1 teams. But this won't be rewarded unless you win the final too? I don't have the answer, just pointing out the way things move and swerve annually depending on practically luck of the draw in certain provinces. The layout and qualification for it isn't right yet and needs to be rethought with the correct reward being there

It was Cavan I was sort of thinking of when I said only provincial winners should get through- they're  likely going to win division 3 at a canter this year and could lose a sam maguire place to a shite connacht team purely by luck of the draw (obviously hoping Cavan don't get to an Ulster final this year lol)

Cavan have only themselves to blame if they aren't in the Sam Maguire group stage. Fell to Division four when they should be at the very least a Division two team and wasted their opportunity by not winning the Tailteann cup.

Absolutely. That conversations been had plenty of times on here.

[Solo_run]

is their a scenario where say tyrone dont make sam maguire group stages.

A very unlikely scenario but it is possible Tyrone do not make the AI.

A D1 or high ranked D2 must not feature in the Ulster final/Leinster final or Munster. If the below provincial finals or equivalent played out Tyrone would not be in the AI.

Mayo vs Sligo
Tipperary vs Cork/Clare
Cavan vs Fermanagh
Kildare vs Louth

Westmeath are already there.

Based on current league standing

Mayo - Their ranking is irrelevant as they would be in the provincial final. Same could happen for Galway or Roscommon.
1. Roscommon
2. Kerry
3. Galway
4. Monaghan
5. Armagh
6. Derry
7. Dublin
---------------------
8. Donegal
9. Tyrone


If Tyrone were relegated from D1 at the bottom of the league they would replace the 2nd placed teams in D2 ranking making them the 9th ranked team where Mayo are omitted because they are in the final.   

[seafoid]

Cavan have only themselves to blame if they aren't in the Sam Maguire group stage. Fell to Division four when they should be at the very least a Division two team and wasted their opportunity by not winning the Tailteann cup.

Way to miss the point that I was trying to make

And remember we had that joke Covid league split on geography in the middle of that. Could easily have been up to Div2 with a proper league and not that setup based off 3 games

That league was awful.