I thought the messing over Ken Casey was done and dusted myself - Longford got the points, scoring difference unaffected, which pretty much seemed fair. Then today I read this:
OFFALY'S fielding of an illegal player in their league match against Longford may have unforeseen repercussions and leave the GAA with a fixtures nightmare.
The Offaly footballers forfeited a league point from the drawn Division 2A clash after it was ruled that Ken Casey - who had been sent off in an U21 match - was ineligible to play.
At the time, there was much debate about whether the match score should stand and its affect on the scoring differentials, which are being used to separate teams that finish on the same points in the league standings.
Difference
The GAA's management committee have now ruled that if teams in Division 2A finish level, the scoring difference system will not be used to separate them. Instead, they must face each other in a play-off.
This looks set to impact on deciding relegation places next season, but if it also comes into play in deciding the top two positions, it could delay the Division 2 semi-finals.
Has anyone actually thought this out? Being realistic, Leitrim will beat London. If we beat Ros, and Monaghan beat Leitrim, that means ourselves, Roscommon, Leitrim and the winners of Longford vs Clare will all be on 8 points. How on earth do people think this is going to get resolved in the next few weeks? I'm hoping this is just the Indo getting it wrong, because this has the makings of a serious mess.
I dont want to bring it up again but when Tyrone lost the points in the McKenna cup there scoring differential was left unaffected with little complaint so the precendence is there within the GAA to not change the scoring the differentials. Also you cant really go changing the rules mid competition like this so I can't see playoffs being required
I agree LS. I got a txt from Laureleye and I thought he was out by a few days on the April fool thingy.
A complete and utter Clusterfuck in my opinion.
The scenario you paint is very very likely. No way should the short straw boys here end up in The Cooper Cup.
I really don't get why this is necessary. Offaly played an illegal player, we deserved to lose the point, but equally after a few cheeky remarks Longford then conceded that scoring difference should remain untouched. If Longford, Offaly and Central council all feel justice has been done, why is this an issue?
I don't want to go pointing fingers, but unless it was a vested Clare/Roscommon interest, why would this have been brought up? Having to fit in one extra game messed things up enough, who could possibly have wanted this quagmire?
Quote from: Lone SharkI really don't get why this is necessary. Offaly played an illegal player, we deserved to lose the point, but equally after a few cheeky remarks Longford then conceded that scoring difference should remain untouched. If Longford, Offaly and Central council all feel justice has been done, why is this an issue?
I don't want to go pointing fingers, but unless it was a vested Clare/Roscommon interest, why would this have been brought up? Having to fit in one extra game messed things up enough, who could possibly have wanted this quagmire?
Ah shur, all yis have to do is to lose to Roscommon and everything will be fine and dandy :P (until Leitrim beat Monaghan and force a play-off with the Sheep
shaggersstealers for promotion)
Seriously, this is
buck-stupid. I spotted the article on the Longford Hoganstand messageboard this morning and texted SS. The main "beneficiaries" would be Roscommon - assuming yis beat them, which yis should. If there are four teams tied on 8 points, then it will require at least another two weeks of tie breaks (1 team winning through to Division 2, and 1 going down to Division 4), which take us up to the 29th. If they intend to play League semi-finals and finals, that would be another two weeks taking you up to May 13th, when Longford take on Westmeath in the Leinster Championship.
(And in case anyone thinks that being from Longford is colouring my reaction, unless our County team pull their fingers out over the next eleven days this f**k-up won't concern us in the slightest because we wouldn't have a hope of beating Clare on last Sunday's performance :()
If Longford's cheeky mention of scoring difference was the catalyst for this move, then it looks to have backfired on them.
Now Clare have something to play for against Longford on the last day.
Clare's scoring difference was so massively inferior that they were virtually consigned to Div 4, but now a win over Longford would put them in a play off under the new ruling.
Quote from: Bord na Mona manIf Longford's cheeky mention of scoring difference was the catalyst for this move, then it looks to have backfired on them.
I doubt if a chance remark by some ludramán that went no further than a footnote in a newspaper article is the cause of it. Offaly are hardly beneficiaries of the move either, given their own points difference. And Leitrim, who were more or less assured of Division 3 at a minimum, are back in danger of Division 4. The main winners would be Roscommon, who couldn't have afforded to lose in O'Connor Park.
QuoteNow Clare have something to play for against Longford on the last day.
Clare's scoring difference was so massively inferior that they were virtually consigned to Div 4, but now a win over Longford would put them in a play off under the new ruling.
They have something to play for anyway. If they beat Longford and Roscommon beat Offaly, then they're in Division 3 next year regardless of the points difference.
Were there to be a 4 way tie on 8 points, the simplest and fairest solution is as follows:
Allow the team with the best scoring difference (i.e 2nd in table) into Div 2 and the league semi finals etc.
The remaining 3 teams should go into Div 3, with no play offs.
That would leave you with a 9 team Division 3 and 7 team Div 4.
Next year promote 2 Division 4 teams and relegate 3 Division 3 teams.
Quote from: LaurelEye on April 03, 2007, 03:01:57 PM
Quote from: Bord na Mona manIf Longford's cheeky mention of scoring difference was the catalyst for this move, then it looks to have backfired on them.
I doubt if a chance remark by some ludramán that went no further than a footnote in a newspaper article is the cause of it. Offaly are hardly beneficiaries of the move either, given their own points difference. And Leitrim, who were more or less assured of Division 3 at a minimum, are back in danger of Division 4. The main winners would be Roscommon, who couldn't have afforded to lose in O'Connor Park.
QuoteNow Clare have something to play for against Longford on the last day.
Clare's scoring difference was so massively inferior that they were virtually consigned to Div 4, but now a win over Longford would put them in a play off under the new ruling.
They have something to play for anyway. If they beat Longford and Roscommon beat Offaly, then they're in Division 3 next year regardless of the points difference.
Offaly would be indirect beneficiaries, in that now we won't face a Roscommon team battling for their lives in Tullamore.
Clare now know that a win will guarantee them an equal fighting chance of survival, whereas previously their destination was out of their hands.
Is there any official line on this scoring average debate from GAA HQ. Or is this just one of the papers getting it completely wrong. I don't see anything about it on gaa.ie
Quote from: AhFeckRefIs there any official line on this scoring average debate from GAA HQ. Or is this just one of the papers getting it completely wrong. I don't see anything about it on gaa.ie
Don't see anything about it in the Irish Times or on the main Hoganstand page either.
It would also open another few cans of worms - what about teams in 1A, 1B or 2B losing out on points difference without the possibility of a play-off?
Quote from: Bord na Mona
Quote from: LaurelEyeThey have something to play for anyway. If they beat Longford and Roscommon beat Offaly, then they're in Division 3 next year regardless of the points difference.
Offaly would be indirect beneficiaries, in that now we won't face a Roscommon team battling for their lives in Tullamore.
True, but a win would put them on 10 points, giving them a very good chance of Division 2 football even if this proposal goes ahead. At worst they would have a rematch against Leitrim.
Quote from: LaurelEye on April 03, 2007, 03:01:57 PM
Quote from: Bord na Mona manIf Longford's cheeky mention of scoring difference was the catalyst for this move, then it looks to have backfired on them.
I doubt if a chance remark by some ludramán that went no further than a footnote in a newspaper article is the cause of it. Offaly are hardly beneficiaries of the move either, given their own points difference. And Leitrim, who were more or less assured of Division 3 at a minimum, are back in danger of Division 4. The main winners would be Roscommon, who couldn't have afforded to lose in O'Connor Park.
The fact remains that if it was said (I don't think anyone could take the Indo's word as Gospel) it wasn't said to a journalist, it was said in a meeting. I do know that the Offaly county board had to go to the trouble of digging up precedent as well to rebut the argument, so it wasn't just a flippant throwaway remark.
Regarding the nine teams in division 3 next year, that would work, but it makes a mess up of the qualifiers this year. Even as things stand it's a ticking time bomb because the three qualifier rounds take place on successive weekends - if one of the supposedly Tommy Murphy teams was to upset the apple cart and get to a provincial final it would mess things up enough massively - the system doesn't allow for any kind of flexibility.
I definitely think that if this is the case Offaly lose out - Roscommon would have been going all out either way, however it makes a huge difference to Longford - as was pointed out, their home game with Clare goes from being a 1/5 nailed on home game to being a 1/2 match if this is the case.
Quote from: Lone SharkQuote from: LaurelEyeQuote from: Bord na Mona manIf Longford's cheeky mention of scoring difference was the catalyst for this move, then it looks to have backfired on them.
I doubt if a chance remark by some ludramán that went no further than a footnote in a newspaper article is the cause of it. Offaly are hardly beneficiaries of the move either, given their own points difference. And Leitrim, who were more or less assured of Division 3 at a minimum, are back in danger of Division 4. The main winners would be Roscommon, who couldn't have afforded to lose in O'Connor Park.
The fact remains that if it was said (I don't think anyone could take the Indo's word as Gospel) it wasn't said to a journalist, it was said in a meeting. I do know that the Offaly county board had to go to the trouble of digging up precedent as well to rebut the argument, so it wasn't just a flippant throwaway remark.
In that case, the ludramán concerned should have his arse kicked all the way back to Cashel or Ballinalee or Mostrim or wherever else he comes from.
QuoteRegarding the nine teams in division 3 next year, that would work, but it makes a mess up of the qualifiers this year. Even as things stand it's a ticking time bomb because the three qualifier rounds take place on successive weekends - if one of the supposedly Tommy Murphy teams was to upset the apple cart and get to a provincial final it would mess things up enough massively - the system doesn't allow for any kind of flexibility.
I definitely think that if this is the case Offaly lose out - Roscommon would have been going all out either way, however it makes a huge difference to Longford - as was pointed out, their home game with Clare goes from being a 1/5 nailed on home game to being a 1/2 match if this is the case.
I wouldn't have put it as being as nailed-on as 1/5 anyway. Longford were poor in the second half of the match against Roscommon and they were absolutely rank last Sunday. I don't know what's wrong but unless it's sorted out rapidly they'll be in the Tommy Murphy Cup by the evening of May 13th.
Seems to be confirmed.
Martin Skelly blasting the injustice of it all on Shannonshiteside lunchtime sports news.
::)
Martin Skelly, for those of ye not in the know, is the Longford Co Board Chairman.
He's fond of the odd 'rant'. Generally makes things worse though :-\
Now i'm going to confuse it even more. My understanding is that play offs will only be required if a team finishes level on points with Longford or Offaly, but if a team finishes level with Leitrim or Roscommon, then points difference will come into play!!!
If Skelly's involved, then precedent will mean that Longford are f*cked.
Quote from: Shrewdness on April 04, 2007, 01:47:25 PM
Now i'm going to confuse it even more. My understanding is that play offs will only be required if a team finishes level on points with Longford or Offaly, but if a team finishes level with Leitrim or Roscommon, then points difference will come into play!!!
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Longford, even without any points difference from this game, have a better points difference than any other team, unless Leitrim run up an absolutely savage score against London this weekend. So even though they could only have been better off, they still could end up playing off with a team with a worse difference? That makes no sense.
Quote from: Lone SharkThat makes no sense.
Yes. And?
This is the world of the Gee-Ay-Ay comm-itt-ee we're dealing with. Nothing
ever makes any sense.
This is a strange one. There is some logic to Longford's original muttering of eliminating the scores from the game with Offaly. If the the result was declared null and void then surely the scoreline must also. But for both teams not just Offaly. In any event since the game was a draw. eliminating the scores would have nil effect on the pts difference standings.
It's hard to see any reason for calling for playoffs unless someone has murmured "appeal" in the event of losing out on something on a points difference to Longford or Offaly.
We can thank the ones west of Meath for this appeal paranoia that has taken hold in the GAA. :)
QuoteWe can thank the ones west of Meath for this appeal paranoia that has taken hold in the GAA
I FECKIN knew Westmeath HAD to be implicated here. Bastards ;)
On an unrelated issue, Shamrock, may I commend your excellent taste in your choice of new avatar ;D
Laurel
You cannot ignore class :D
Football League Division 2A
Team P W D L F A +/- Pts
1 Monaghan 6 6 0 0 4-90 5-48 39 12
2 Roscommon 6 4 0 2 6-71 6-58 13 8
3 Longford 6 2 1 3 13-70 3-76 24 6
4 Offaly 6 3 1 2 6-81 6-59 22 6
5 Leitrim 5 3 0 2 6-54 3-57 6 6
6 Clare 6 3 0 3 6-68 6-67 1 6
7 Carlow 6 1 0 5 5-58 10-81 -38 2
8 London 5 0 0 5 4-37 11-83 -67 0
Remaining Fixtures
April 8
London v Leitrim
April 15
Londain v Ceatharlach
Longfort v An Clár
Liatroim v Muineachán
Uíbh Fhailí v Ros Comáin
If we can assume
1)that Leitrim beat London by say less than 20 points, and in turn they lose their last match to Monaghan, they will have 8 pts but less of a scoring difference to Longford or Offaly.
2)that Longford and Offaly win their last games
3) Offaly win their game by 3 more points than Longford win theirs
Then your left with a scenario where Offaly would advance to Div 2 at Longfords expense,even though Offaly were deemed to have lost their game with Longford,but Longford didn't gain scoring wise.
Would it be in order then for Offaly & Longford to play off for Div 2?
Ah sure,maybe I'm just making things more confusing.
Although as a Cavan man will be hoping that both Roscommon and Monaghan win their final games and then we will eventually get our day out in Croker on 21st.
Call me an old cynic, but ask yourself of the 4 teams in contention, which do you think would be Monaghan's preferred opponent and potential relegation rival in Div 2 next season ....????
Of course this assumes that Monaghan consider themselves potential relegation candidates next season, which they probably don't ...
Quote from: Model Hammer on April 05, 2007, 03:31:24 PM
Call me an old cynic, but ask yourself of the 4 teams in contention, which do you think would be Monaghan's preferred opponent and potential relegation rival in Div 2 next season ....????
Of course this assumes that Monaghan consider themselves potential relegation candidates next season, which they probably don't ...
Not that you may be sugesting anything ,but if Leitrim and Roscommon win their remaining games, then they would have to play off against each other for second spot (as scoring differences won't count).
Quote from: shotstopper1 on April 05, 2007, 04:02:54 PM
Quote from: Model Hammer on April 05, 2007, 03:31:24 PM
Call me an old cynic, but ask yourself of the 4 teams in contention, which do you think would be Monaghan's preferred opponent and potential relegation rival in Div 2 next season ....????
Of course this assumes that Monaghan consider themselves potential relegation candidates next season, which they probably don't ...
Not that you may be sugesting anything ,but if Leitrim and Roscommon win their remaining games, then they would have to play off against each other for second spot (as scoring differences won't count).
If Leitrim and Roscommon are level, scoring difference will count. There will only be play-offs if Offaly and/or Longford are involved
Why only if Longford and/or Offaly are involved? Since they're game ended in a draw then it affects neither's scoring difference nor has no impact on any of the other teams. ???
Quote from: WispaWhy only if Longford and/or Offaly are involved? Since they're game ended in a draw then it affects neither's scoring difference nor has no impact on any of the other teams. ???
You're making the fundamental mistake there of thinking logically...
The plot thickens. Leitrim have just beaten London 0-13 to 0-10. This puts them level on 8 points in joint second with Roscommon. However, Ros have a 4 points advantage over Leitrim in scoring difference. This could yet be crucial, because play offs only come into it, if a team finishes level with Longford or Offaly, who are both back on 6 points.
However, if Offaly beat Roscommon, which is almost a banker, then Leitrim need only draw with Monaghan to claim Div 2 for next season. Does everyone agree with this, or am i wrong?
Here are the 15 - yes 15 possible outcomes next sunday -
1. If Leitrim and Roscommon both win next Sunday, score difference will decide second and third, at the moment Leitrim are four points behind Roscommon.
2. If Leitrim and Roscommon both draw Roscommon will finish second and Leitrim third on score difference.
3. If Leitrim draw and Roscommon lose Leitrim will finish second.
4. If there are wins for Monaghan, Roscommon and Clare next weekend, Offaly, Longford, Carlow and London will play in TM Cup and Division 4 2008. Leitrim and Clare will play in Qualifiers 2007 and League Division 3 2008, with Monaghan and Roscommon playing in Division 2 2008.
5. If there are wins for Offaly, Longford and Monaghan, then Roscommon, Leitrim, Longford and Offaly will be tied on eight points each and playoffs will be required to decide who qualifies for Division 2(one team), Division 3(two teams) and Division 4(one team) from among these four.
6. If all three games finish level, Roscommon will finish second, Leitrim third and playoffs will be required to separate Longford/Clare/Offaly to decide one reaming place in Division 3 2008 and two remaining places in Division 4 2008 and TM Cup 2007
7. If Offaly/Roscommon and Longford/Clare matches are both drawn then Leitrim will finish second if victorious over Monaghan, with Roscommon finishing third and playoffs will be required to decide the separation of Clare, Longford and Offaly
8. If Offaly/Roscommon and Longford/Clare matches are both drawn then Leitrim will finish third if losing/drawing versus Monaghan, with Roscommon finishing second on score difference in the event of a Leitrim draw and playoffs will be required to decide the separation of Clare, Longford and Offaly.
9. If Longford/Clare draw and there are wins for Leitrim and Offaly, then Leitrim will finish second, Roscommon/Offaly third/fourth with Clare, Longford, Carlow and London playing in Division 4 2008 and TM Cup 2007.
10. If Longford/Clare draw and there are wins for Monaghan and Offaly, then Leitrim, Roscommon and Offaly will be tied for second place and playoffs will be required to determine the remaining one place in Division 2 and the two remaining places in Division 3 with Clare, Longford, Carlow and London playing in Division 4 2008 and TM Cup 2007.
11. If Offaly/Roscommon draw and there are wins for Leitrim and Longford then Leitrim will finish second, Roscommon third, Longford fourth with Offaly, Clare, Carlow and London playing in TM Cup 2007 and Division 4 2008
12. If Offaly/Roscommon draw and there are wins for Monaghan and Longford then Leitrim will finish fourth, Longford third, Roscommon second and Monaghan first with Offaly, Clare, Carlow and London playing in TM Cup 2007 and Division 4 2008.
13. If Offaly/Roscommon draw and there are wins for Leitrim and Longford then Leitrim will finish second, Roscommon third, Longford fourth with Offaly, Clare, Carlow and London playing in TM Cup 2007 and Division 4 2008.
14. If there are wins for Monaghan, Longford and Roscommon: Monaghan & Roscommon in Div. 2 with Leitrim and Longford in Division 3 2008 and the remainder in Division 4.
15. If there are wins for Monaghan, Clare and Roscommon, Monaghan and Roscommon will play in Division 2 2008, Leitrim and Clare will play in Division 3 2008 with Longford, Offaly, Carlow and London playing in TM Cup 2007 and Division 4 2008.
And may I welcome Stephen Hawking to the Board.
Top Class Sir (http://forum.football365.com/images/smiley_icons/emot-tip-wink.gif)
Now, now, 45GoneShort, I read this earlier today else-where, acknowledge your source !!!
But the info. is good. Some mess this division is in.
???
Anyone dare to call the results that matter in 2A ? I'd say; (Carlow / London is irrelevant to the standings)
Wins for Offaly, Monaghan, Longford leaving
Roscommon, Offaly, Leitrim and Longford all on 8 points and some sort of play off required (unless this was an April Fools joke)
I haven't seen anything about how such a play off would work, but presume it has to be a straight draw with the winners playing for 2nd spot and the losers playing to avoid 5th.
I have to admit though Leitrim worry me. Monaghan have only pride at stake whereas Leitrim have the massive prize of Div 2 if other things go for them and it's in Cloone.
i hope monaghan go easy on Leitrim ;D
QuoteI have to admit though Leitrim worry me. Monaghan have only pride at stake whereas Leitrim have the massive prize of Div 2 if other things go for them and it's in Cloone.
A very astute comment. Last week Leitrim struggled to beat London who have been tonked by everyone so Monaghan should win. But logic does not enter the equation when entering the twilight zone of playing Leitrim at a Leitrim venue. If Monaghan's attitude is not right the might get turned over even though they are far superior footballers.
I think you are all way off the mark in regard to leitrim. Being realiistic you have to take into account monaghan are in under21 final 24hrs beforehand, monaghan have nothing play for except for starting places on the team and then there is for me the Cloone factor, this venue gives leitrim a major advantage with its tight playing field with the crowd right in on top of you. In relation to the offaly rosscommon game i'm going for the rossies offaly are in a under21 final 24hrs earlier this i tink wil giv the rossies the edge. Carlow still in dissaray could be in for a shock i think london will be bouyed up by their performance against leitrim last weekend. Longford are a sure thing against clare, longford will have way too much for them. If i'm right on all 4 games them i'll be over €200 better off. Having said that its hard to see this division not being decided on playoff's.
Offaly gone!
Results
Longford 2-10 Clare 0-10
Roscommon 4-11 Offaly 1-16
Leitrim 2-10 Monaghan 1-14
Result means:
Div 2 Monaghan and Roscommon
Div 3 Leitrim and Longford
Div 4 (and Cooper Cup ignomy) Offaly
Bad day for the BIFFO'S in every way so,their hurlers were beaten too and Div 2 beckons for them next year
Delighted that no Connacht team plays in Division 4 next year. :)
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on April 15, 2007, 07:19:40 PM
Bad day for the BIFFO'S in every way so,their hurlers were beaten too and Div 2 beckons for them next year
Hey Laoislad, would ye ever take that Roe f**ker back where he belongs. No wonder ye wouldn't give him yer own job.
On the bright side :D :D :D :D :D :D :D, the last time Offaly were in Div 4 they won a Leinster title. It's delerium setting in.
Dark days when we're competing for the Tommy Cooper Cup.
While we are not Division 4 material, that could change having to spend a year slugging it out with the dregs.
:(
So what happens now? Just say Offaly beat Carlow and win the next game to progress to a Leinster semi or whatever. Are they still doomed to Tommy Murphy rather than Qualifiers? Or is it only if they lose in the first round or two?
As an extreme example, I'm sure if Offaly were to qualify for another Leinster Final, and lose it, they would hardly drop straight into the Tommy Murphy cup would they?
You need to make the Leinster final to avoid the Tommy Murphy Cup.
Jaysus. Ah well, it's fair enough anyway. The Qualifers are shite for us in any case. Still, don't rule us out :D
I'm more gutted that we'll be preparing for the championship next year in Division 4 rather than Division 2.
Given that Offaly are usually dung in the qualifiers anyway, it's probably not the worst sanction.
However Division 4 football is not the best place to prepare a team.
My feelings exactly BnM Man. We've never treated the Qualifers with the same urgency anyway, so being kicked out by Congress rather than by Carlow or somebody doesn't bother me. What bothers me is expecting to play Kildare or someone next year and preparing with trips to Ruislip, Ardfinnan and Dungarvan.
Don't forget the trip to Aughrim :-\
I'm glad that point wasn't the telling factor in the end....if you know what I mean.
Interesting to see now Paidi v Micko in a Cooper Cup showdown. Perhaps this could be the making of the competition.
But I doubt it.
Now that's just mean SS! ;)
Aughrim is no fortress nowadays as proved by our boys the other week.
Wait 'til you see the publicity the Tommy Murphy Cup will get if Wickla do any way half decent in it. Micko will be a "cute hoor" for deliberately qualifying for it as a stage in his plan of world domination....
Kerry's revenge against the Biffos for 1982 will probably have to wait for another year I guess, but some day somewhere it's coming to ye. :P I'm still bitter.
Quote from: Kerry Mike on April 16, 2007, 12:27:52 PM
I'm still bitter.
So is Micko.
So long Offaly manage to beat Wicklow in the Tommy Cooper, so we get spared more of Micko's jibes at Offaly.
I recall that ye feckers were in Div 4 in 1996/97 and it didn't do ye much harm then in the following few years.