USFC Round 1: Derry vs. Antrim

[Louper]

Delvin has not the strenght to be consistant county forward, he has potential, but alot of weights work to do.

fair point max! one for the future no doubt!

management is a massive part of any team. derry dont seem to have everyone playin the same way - direct towards goal. i wtached fergal doherty fist a ball about 30 yards back to the keeper against laois at celtic park and it almost embarrassed me. turning into soccer! fergal is one of the most naturally gifted footballers in the county and if men that are on a county team cant take another player on then they shouldnt be there. im not singling out fergal it seemed to be the whole team. a kcik across the field, a fist back to someone, a fist back again, another ball across the field. nothin direct and i cant understand it because derry have the players that can do that. alot of derrys players seem to be afraid to run it past the opposition, they make a strong run then turn when they get to a man to ship it off to someone else!

derry need to know whats goin on all over the field almost bein able to kick a pass without lookin, knowing someone will be in that space. look at the reading of the game betweem stephen mcdonnell and ronan clarke for armagh, possibly one of the best in the country!

[lynchbhoy]

First time since 93 Derry has had such a strong panel, with the subs bench the best for years. A reflection on the quality at the minute in the Oak Leaf county. Having said that, I`ll be with Antrim all the way on Sunday, win lose or draw.

A ferrari without a steering wheel aint much use JJ !

Lynchboy I enjoy all your quick comments about Crozier and his inability as a manager. Derry quite simply have not got the players to break into the top tier and win the All Ireland. They have a few very talented players but on the whole they dont have the mentality or the footballing quality required. All this talk about clubs taking precedence over the county is just an excuse. County players in Tyrone are every bit as (and in some cases probably more) committed to their blubs than their counterparts in Derry.
You talk about Tyrone having average players but an excellent manager and that it is the manager who sets them apart. I dont agree, yes Harte is an excellent manager and master tactician but it was the quality of the players that made the thing work in 2003 and 2005. Harte has been the manager since 2003 and the seasons where he didnt suceed where those when he was missing the real quality players. Take this year for example, Brian McGuigan wont play and I will be amazed if Tyrone win the All Ireland without him.

We shall disagree over it then.But That doesnt mean you are wrong or that I might even be right.
Paddy C is a nice man, but I have had first hand exp as him being a manager.But he is equiv to 50% of the bosses out there in Gaelic football.

Its not just Gaelic football. There are instances of teams being far better than they look on paper. Soccer , rugby, hurling, basketball....
Its no fluke when a team punches above its weight. It can be, but not for sustained periods.
I'll use Celtic as an example. Decent players bought by ONeill - but it took a managerial tactical change going 352 and playing a certain style to make them virtually unbeatable in scotland (and england when they met english teams) and not many triumphed over them at home in europe.
When they stopped using a 352 and went 442 again, the same players playuing - the team went back to being poor again.
Tactics alone wont win you games. Same for talent alone wont win. A combo mix of both is what is needed. Some managers get this by luck and then see what they have and progress from there. Others (like Mick ODwyer) create it (not just down to great tactics either).

We have as much talent as we had in 1993. Maybe Gaelic football is more competitive these days. But we have a team of 15 men almost as good as the reat. That could be enough given the right man in charge.The odds are it wont happen though.An ulster title some time is achievable, other than that good runs in the qualifiers is all we can hope for. AI Semi finals perhaps. Unless things change.

[aontroim]

From http://antrim.gaa.ie/

Antrim boss names team for USFC opener.                    30 May 2007

Antrim Senior Football manager Jody Gormley has named his first side to compete in the Bank of Ireland Ulster Senior Football Championship against Derry on Sunday 3rd June in Casement Park.

1. Sean McGreevey - Naomh Pól
2. Tony Scullion - Clann na hÉireann
3. Paul Doherty - Naomh Mhuire
4. Kevin O'Boyle - Clann na hÉireann
5. Sean McVeigh - Naomh Uile
6. Gavin Bell - Ui Dhonnabhain Rosa
7. Justin Crozier - Clann na hÉireann
8. Michael McCann - Clann na hÉireann
9. Joe Quinn - Naomh Pól
10. Aodhan Gallagher - Naomh Gall
11. Kevin Niblock - Naomh Gall
12. James Loughery - Naomh Brid
13. Conor McGourty - Naomh Gall
14. Kevin Brady - Naomh Ergnat
15. Patrick Cunningham - Lámh Dhearg

16. Chris Kerr - Naomh Gall
17. Ciaran Close - Clann na hÉireann
18. Eoin O'Neill - Clann na hÉireann
19. Darrel Martin - Chiceann
20. Tomas Close - Ui Dhonnabhain Rosa
21. Paul Close - Ui Dhonnabhain Rosa
22. Michael Rea - Naomh Seosamh
23. Colin Brady - Naomh Gall
24. Conor McGoldrick - Naomh Treasa
25. Patrick Logan - Naomh Uile
26. Liam Gartland - Naomh Pól
27. John Finnucane - Lámh Dhearg

[glens73]

We have as much talent as we had in 1993. Maybe Gaelic football is more competitive these days. But we have a team of 15 men almost as good as the reat. That could be enough given the right man in charge.The odds are it wont happen though.An ulster title some time is achievable, other than that good runs in the qualifiers is all we can hope for. AI Semi finals perhaps. Unless things change.

[/quote]



I'd have to disagree Lynchboy, the 93 panel would be a fair bit better than the current one. Obviously, PB would be a better forward than those in 1993, but there aren't many players in the current panel fit to lace the boots of McKeever, Scullion, Downey, McGurk, Tohill, McGilligan, Barton and even the likes of Heaney who went through a heck of a lot of hard work.

[PlayWithTheWind]

the starting 15 will not play those positions so im told!

[imtommygunn]

Not a bad Antrim team considering. Glad to see some physical presence added with Quinn and Doherty. Surprised to see Kieran Close on the bench - thought he was on fire for club but then we seem to have an abundance of small left footed corner forwards so I suppose someone had to go. Disappointed, for the game in general might I add, that Bradley got off but it's been one big mess from start to finish.

Lynchboy to say Derry have as much talent now as they had in 93 is IMHO ridiculous.  Look at the defense - you could fit one player from today's defense in 93 - someone either Lockhart or McGuckin at no. 4. Not a midfielder would get near the team, probably not a half forward would get near the team and Paddy Bradley or Enda Muldoon might make the FF line. The current Derry team granted will more than likely beat Antrim but they are no more than a half decent side as opposed to 93 when they were obviously outstanding.

At present Derry are a half forward line,a corner forward, half a defense in fact probably three quarters of a defense, probably a goalie and one midfielder short of being AI challengers! Doherty, Lockhart, McGuckin, Bradley and maybe Muldoon on a good day are the only players who would get on AI challenger teams! Some would argue McCloy - not so sure though...

[Real Talk]

This Derry team is not even close to the quality of the 93' team.   Players don't have the same commitment , desire or technical quality, P Bradley 'huffed' and wouldn't train .... 'mind you his club training is probably of a higher standard'  .... E Coleman wouldn't have accepted that, he commanded  and got total respect and therin lies the problem as also indicated by Max     The Bradley bros atitude is indicative of the current 'unprofessional' set up.  However, I hope they perform to best of their ability.   

Tyrone are a very ordinary side since P Canavan retired and will struggle to make an impact at National level,  also the standard of Derry club football is and has always been much higher than Tyrone clubs.   Compare the number of Derry clubs that have had success at Ulster and All-Ireland level , however this success has not been replicated at county level.  As a whole I think Tyrone players presently are much more committed to the County scene

Derry will won on Sunday with a few points to spare

[Hungry Exile]

Tyrone have 5 players who are exceptional - Ricey, Gormley, Cavanagh, O'Neill and Mulligan. Then you have McGuigan who makes the difference and can control the game in the really tight situations.
In order to win the really tight games Tyrone need all these guys in peak shape and for this reason I think McGuigan will be too much of a miss.
Derry have two exceptional players in my opinion - Kevin McGuckin and Paddy Bradley however neither of these two guys have consistently did it at county level against the likes of Tyrone, Armagh and Kerry

Loughshore lad,
You've got caught in a time trap & it's time to waken up and smell the coffee!

I went down to Clones to see Tyrone against Fermanagh & to be honest with the exception of Sean C & Gormley they were nothing to right home about. 

Ricey has lost the plot & he thinks he's back playing Ice hockey.  He was a good McKeever type terrier a couple of seasons ago, but he has lost the basics.

Granted O'Neill had a fantastic season in 05, but that was a single season, he was sub in 03 & has been plagued with injury ever since.

Mulligan scored the goal of the century against Dublin to kick start his season in 05 at the QF stage, but without Peter to draw the defence he is nothing special.  I will give him credit for a bit of craft to "buy" the foul by Niall Bogues to get the second last score of the Fermanagh game & fair play to him!!

Hughes was a passenger at Clones as was Dooher for most of the game.

The full back spot for Tyrone is severely suspect.  It was obvious Jack O'Connor had tutored Fermanagh to place a decent high fielder at the edge of the square ala Donaghy.  One goal & one great save later from the 2 Femanagh midfielders they lost their confidence and potentially the scalp of the championship!!  Do you think Brian McIver won't have thought of he same!!

For Tyrone to be relying on Cavlin at 31 to save them, they are not in good shape at the moment.

The young lad in corner forward looked very sharp in the second half as did Tommy McGuigan in the first, Com C is not of the same calibre as his brother & Mellon is an average journey man.  McCullagh just blows hot and cold.

I think at this point of the season Derry are in as good a shape as Tyrone.  A couple of lucky decisions from the ref (ala Peter C free against Armagh in the semi replay of 05) and Derry could get an Ulster - & I believe that is the only piece of silverware any Ulster team will be lifting this year!

Tyrone paid Brian McGuigan to come back from Oz, & they will need him plus O'Neill, plus Mulgrew firing on all cylinders by August, but with Donegal next & the restructured back door system the balance of players may not be good enough to last to then!!

[Springfield]

Realtalk, do you anything surrounding the situation as to why Paddy Bradley hasnt been training.
To say it is to do with poor attitude is rediculous.

Reading in the Star today he says that he didnt train as he wasnt going to be properly focused with the ban hanging over his head, and this was going to do no good for the rest of the players. I think thats a fair enough point.

I also know that being from his own club he has trained away continousally and always had the intention of going back to Derry. In fact, no one in the club knew until Sun night he was going to the DRA as he wanted to keep everything quiet and didnt want media attention surrounding it

That doesnt seem to merit a label of poor attitude

[loughshore lad]

Tyrone have 5 players who are exceptional - Ricey, Gormley, Cavanagh, O'Neill and Mulligan. Then you have McGuigan who makes the difference and can control the game in the really tight situations.
In order to win the really tight games Tyrone need all these guys in peak shape and for this reason I think McGuigan will be too much of a miss.
Derry have two exceptional players in my opinion - Kevin McGuckin and Paddy Bradley however neither of these two guys have consistently did it at county level against the likes of Tyrone, Armagh and Kerry

Loughshore lad,
You've got caught in a time trap & it's time to waken up and smell the coffee!

I went down to Clones to see Tyrone against Fermanagh & to be honest with the exception of Sean C & Gormley they were nothing to right home about. 

Ricey has lost the plot & he thinks he's back playing Ice hockey.  He was a good McKeever type terrier a couple of seasons ago, but he has lost the basics.

Granted O'Neill had a fantastic season in 05, but that was a single season, he was sub in 03 & has been plagued with injury ever since.

Mulligan scored the goal of the century against Dublin to kick start his season in 05 at the QF stage, but without Peter to draw the defence he is nothing special.  I will give him credit for a bit of craft to "buy" the foul by Niall Bogues to get the second last score of the Fermanagh game & fair play to him!!

Hughes was a passenger at Clones as was Dooher for most of the game.

The full back spot for Tyrone is severely suspect.  It was obvious Jack O'Connor had tutored Fermanagh to place a decent high fielder at the edge of the square ala Donaghy.  One goal & one great save later from the 2 Femanagh midfielders they lost their confidence and potentially the scalp of the championship!!  Do you think Brian McIver won't have thought of he same!!

For Tyrone to be relying on Cavlin at 31 to save them, they are not in good shape at the moment.

The young lad in corner forward looked very sharp in the second half as did Tommy McGuigan in the first, Com C is not of the same calibre as his brother & Mellon is an average journey man.  McCullagh just blows hot and cold.

I think at this point of the season Derry are in as good a shape as Tyrone.  A couple of lucky decisions from the ref (ala Peter C free against Armagh in the semi replay of 05) and Derry could get an Ulster - & I believe that is the only piece of silverware any Ulster team will be lifting this year!

Tyrone paid Brian McGuigan to come back from Oz, & they will need him plus O'Neill, plus Mulgrew firing on all cylinders by August, but with Donegal next & the restructured back door system the balance of players may not be good enough to last to then!!

You have not read any of my posts too well. Where did I say Tyrone would win anything this season? I merely said that they had 5 exceptional players who would all need to be playing at the peak of their powers in order for them to have a chance of winning anything this season. Out side of these 5 Tyrone struggle just like the vast majority of other counties. Brian McGuigan will not be playing any football this season and he will simply be too much of a miss for Tyrone to overcome.
You are talking about Tyrone having a suspect full back I think you will find I actually highlighted this a few pages back. I happen to know Brian McIver and have no doubts he will be targeting the dodgy Tyrone full back - just like he did when Donegal beat Derry in the ulster championship semi final last season 

[Louper]

Realtalk, do you anything surrounding the situation as to why Paddy Bradley hasnt been training.
To say it is to do with poor attitude is rediculous.

Reading in the Star today he says that he didnt train as he wasnt going to be properly focused with the ban hanging over his head, and this was going to do no good for the rest of the players. I think thats a fair enough point.

I also know that being from his own club he has trained away continousally and always had the intention of going back to Derry. In fact, no one in the club knew until Sun night he was going to the DRA as he wanted to keep everything quiet and didnt want media attention surrounding it

That doesnt seem to merit a label of poor attitude

i wudnt say poor attitude but springfield wud it not be fair to say he could have trained once a week with them to show a bit of committment? he was always goin to take this to the highest level (as anyone would) so there was always the chance he would be back. county players in derry dont have the desire anymore. it just doesnt seem as much of an honour as it used to be. now its about travellin expenses, free gear and how well the county look after them and not the other way round! (im not singlin pb out here) i just feel if he was goin to keep appealin with the possibility of bein available v antrim should he not have trained with the county at some stage rather than "checking in with them" as he said in his interview. whats your opinions on this springfield?

[fer fox ache]

Well Louper his atitude to the county set up seems a lot more commited than a certain defender from your own club

[Louper]

Well Louper his atitude to the county set up seems a lot more commited than a certain defender from your own club

Joe O'Kane made his mind up not to play county football this year PB always knew he was coming back and probably sooner rather than later. Im just sayin if he was going to keep appealing with the chance of getting back for Antrim match i cant understand why he didnt train with them at all through this period. Do u not agree that he could have gave them a few sessions even if nothin else to keep himself right, and to keep in contention for a starting place?

[lynchbhoy]

lads, in all fairness- the Derry side in 93 were champions , but would grind out results by stopping teams play with their physicality and scored more form half back line from play than the forwards did.
You cant really compare the sides as football has changed so much the footballer of today is lighter , faster and fitter.

But I would say there is not much in it regarding the sides.
I would say Derry full back line today beat the FB line then.
93 - McKeever, No full back , Scullion
v
07 McGuckian , McCloy , & ?? (sometimes OKane)
The keepers - well there wouldnt be a whole lot in it, with McCusker getting my nod.

HB lines - no contest 93 version wins against any current day formation.
MF - while Derry 93 wins, in a one on one analysis, MgGilligan (one of my all time footballing heroes) would not be a patch in footballing terms against Doherty - but McGilligan just was the perfect foil for Tohills runs forward.

HF line - neither team had a half forward line worth talking about. Looking back in fond memory of the 93 HF line means you are forgetting how rubbish they were.
All they did was fall back and allow the half forwards run up the field to score in the confusion and space this superb 'tactic' created.
Draw.

FF line
I'd give the 07 line the nod.
PAddy & Eoin & Muldoon v
yellow joe (who couldnt be picked against a six county team as if he got hit he'd be out of the game)
The honest and decent Seamus Downey and ace free taker Gormley

thats how I see it lads.
We hit form that year, maybe that half back tactic was created rather than just happened to be what the three boys liked doing.
But I dont think we are much different then compared to now.

my opinion obviously.

[Springfield]

PB told Paddy Crozier he wanted to get away from it all for a few weeks, let the team prepare for the Antrim match without the shadow of his suspension, the hype of his unavailibility and then the rumours of his appeal to the DRA affect the squads preparation. I think it was a good enough call.
As far as Im aware he wasnt at all convinced that the DRA would find in favour of him, not because of the case, but because he and G O Kane were so confident that the Ulster appeal would work , they were dumfounded when it didnt.

As far as attitude and desire goes, you dont know PB very much if you think he hasnt either of these. I would go as far as toi say Iv never seen a more focused person who trains hard, works lots on his own and always aims to prove critics wrong