Sam Maguire permutations

[Keyser soze]

The GAA trying to convince people that the idea of 3 qualifying from groups was to avoid dead rubbers when in reality it's for financial reasons especially with the 4 preliminary 1/4s.
I don't see how dead rubbers will definitely be avoided.

In Kerry's group, if the winner of Kerry-Mayo beats the winner of Louth-Cork in the 2nd game, with the loser of Louth-Cork also losing their 2nd game, then won't the final game between the team with 2 wins v the team with 2 losses be a dead rubber?
And the other game will essentially be a dead rubber, 2nd and 3rd will be decided, just which order.

Only the  GAA  could come up with preliminary quarter finals, complete nonsense, makes group stage less  appealing. One team knocked out ffs!  Same silly nonsense in Hurling as well.

I was thinking they should introduce a preliminary semifinal as well!

[blanketattack]

The GAA trying to convince people that the idea of 3 qualifying from groups was to avoid dead rubbers when in reality it's for financial reasons especially with the 4 preliminary 1/4s.
I don't see how dead rubbers will definitely be avoided.

In Kerry's group, if the winner of Kerry-Mayo beats the winner of Louth-Cork in the 2nd game, with the loser of Louth-Cork also losing their 2nd game, then won't the final game between the team with 2 wins v the team with 2 losses be a dead rubber?
And the other game will essentially be a dead rubber, 2nd and 3rd will be decided, just which order.

In your scenario, going into the last match the table could be:
Mayo -4
Kerry -2
Louth - 2
Cork -0
Last match is Kerry V louth and Mayo V cork

In that scenario, if cork and louth won their last matches, Louth could get top, Mayo second and Cork could get third with kerry finishing bottom.

That's unlikely, but they aren't dead rubbers.

Also, there is a benefit to fiishing 2nd over 3rd as you will (in theory) get an easier preliminary quarter final.

In that scenario Mayo v Cork is a dead rubber. Mayo have secured top on head to head results v Kerry & Louth. Cork are bottom due to head to head results v Kerry & Louth.
Kerry and Louth are already thro' to the preliminary 1/4s, just deciding who's 2nd and who's 3rd, so essentially a dead rubber,in fact in some cases finishing 3rd may be preferred.

[blanketattack]

The GAA trying to convince people that the idea of 3 qualifying from groups was to avoid dead rubbers when in reality it's for financial reasons especially with the 4 preliminary 1/4s.
I don't see how dead rubbers will definitely be avoided.

In Kerry's group, if the winner of Kerry-Mayo beats the winner of Louth-Cork in the 2nd game, with the loser of Louth-Cork also losing their 2nd game, then won't the final game between the team with 2 wins v the team with 2 losses be a dead rubber?
And the other game will essentially be a dead rubber, 2nd and 3rd will be decided, just which order.

Only the  GAA  could come up with preliminary quarter finals, complete nonsense, makes group stage less  appealing. One team knocked out ffs!  Same silly nonsense in Hurling as well.

I was thinking they should introduce a preliminary semifinal as well!

Seeing we're about to have preliminary 1/4 finals and we've already had preliminary finals (a.k.a. 'Home finals'), all that's missing is preliminary semifinals.

[Keyser soze]

The GAA trying to convince people that the idea of 3 qualifying from groups was to avoid dead rubbers when in reality it's for financial reasons especially with the 4 preliminary 1/4s.
I don't see how dead rubbers will definitely be avoided.

In Kerry's group, if the winner of Kerry-Mayo beats the winner of Louth-Cork in the 2nd game, with the loser of Louth-Cork also losing their 2nd game, then won't the final game between the team with 2 wins v the team with 2 losses be a dead rubber?
And the other game will essentially be a dead rubber, 2nd and 3rd will be decided, just which order.

Only the  GAA  could come up with preliminary quarter finals, complete nonsense, makes group stage less  appealing. One team knocked out ffs!  Same silly nonsense in Hurling as well.

I was thinking they should introduce a preliminary semifinal as well!

Seeing we're about to have preliminary 1/4 finals and we've already has preliminary finals (a.k.a. 'Home finals'), all that's missing is preliminary semifinals.

We shouldn't say things like this, even in jest, as someone surely will think its a great idea and it'll be before congress next season.

[blanketattack]

The GAA trying to convince people that the idea of 3 qualifying from groups was to avoid dead rubbers when in reality it's for financial reasons especially with the 4 preliminary 1/4s.
I don't see how dead rubbers will definitely be avoided.

In Kerry's group, if the winner of Kerry-Mayo beats the winner of Louth-Cork in the 2nd game, with the loser of Louth-Cork also losing their 2nd game, then won't the final game between the team with 2 wins v the team with 2 losses be a dead rubber?
And the other game will essentially be a dead rubber, 2nd and 3rd will be decided, just which order.

Only the  GAA  could come up with preliminary quarter finals, complete nonsense, makes group stage less  appealing. One team knocked out ffs!  Same silly nonsense in Hurling as well.

I was thinking they should introduce a preliminary semifinal as well!

Seeing we're about to have preliminary 1/4 finals and we've already has preliminary finals (a.k.a. 'Home finals'), all that's missing is preliminary semifinals.

We shouldn't say things like this, even in jest, as someone surely will think its a great idea and it'll be before congress next season.

It might just occur naturally in conversation.
A: "Have you been to any Armagh game this year?"
B: "Yeah, I was at the quarter-final"
A: "Which 1/4 final? The preliminary one?"
B: "No, the other 1/4 final. The preliminary semi-final."

[dec]

B: "Yeah, I was at the quarter-final"

The provincial quarter-final or the All-Ireland quarter final?

[CK_Redhand]

Surely any team that makes it to an all ireland final doesn't deserve to go out on just one result. We should make it a three match series, Croker filled to the brim for each one!

[westbound]

The GAA trying to convince people that the idea of 3 qualifying from groups was to avoid dead rubbers when in reality it's for financial reasons especially with the 4 preliminary 1/4s.
I don't see how dead rubbers will definitely be avoided.

In Kerry's group, if the winner of Kerry-Mayo beats the winner of Louth-Cork in the 2nd game, with the loser of Louth-Cork also losing their 2nd game, then won't the final game between the team with 2 wins v the team with 2 losses be a dead rubber?
And the other game will essentially be a dead rubber, 2nd and 3rd will be decided, just which order.

In your scenario, going into the last match the table could be:
Mayo -4
Kerry -2
Louth - 2
Cork -0
Last match is Kerry V louth and Mayo V cork

In that scenario, if cork and louth won their last matches, Louth could get top, Mayo second and Cork could get third with kerry finishing bottom.

That's unlikely, but they aren't dead rubbers.

Also, there is a benefit to fiishing 2nd over 3rd as you will (in theory) get an easier preliminary quarter final.

In that scenario Mayo v Cork is a dead rubber. Mayo have secured top on head to head results v Kerry & Louth. Cork are bottom due to head to head results v Kerry & Louth.
Kerry and Louth are already thro' to the preliminary 1/4s, just deciding who's 2nd and who's 3rd, so essentially a dead rubber,in fact in some cases finishing 3rd may be preferred.

Apologies

You are correct in that scenario.

[tbrick18]

My head hurts.
This is near impossible to follow to be honest.
My auld fella hasn't got a clue what happens after ulster and I'd say he's not alone in that.
It just seems very complicated, or perhaps its the communication around the possible permutations that's complicated.
I do get the intention though and I think that is right, but I also think the draw should not have been made until all provincial finals have been completed.

[twohands!!!]

My head hurts.
This is near impossible to follow to be honest.
My auld fella hasn't got a clue what happens after ulster and I'd say he's not alone in that.
It just seems very complicated, or perhaps its the communication around the possible permutations that's complicated.
I do get the intention though and I think that is right, but I also think the draw should not have been made until all provincial finals have been completed.

It will become very clear once it's up and running.

Also both the GAA and the GAA media haven't exactly done a top job in terms of explaining the structure to folk.

However there's only so much the GAA and media can do - they can't just click their fingers and magically make it so that everyone in the land has complete knowledge of the structure with zero effort put in.

[Blowitupref]

My head hurts.
This is near impossible to follow to be honest.
My auld fella hasn't got a clue what happens after ulster and I'd say he's not alone in that.
It just seems very complicated, or perhaps its the communication around the possible permutations that's complicated.
I do get the intention though and I think that is right, but I also think the draw should not have been made until all provincial finals have been completed.

It will become very clear once it's up and running.

Also both the GAA and the GAA media haven't exactly done a top job in terms of explaining the structure to folk.

However there's only so much the GAA and media can do - they can't just click their fingers and magically make it so that everyone in the land has complete knowledge of the structure with zero effort put in.

Have a feeling an All-Ireland contender or a team aiming for All-Ireland semi final at least will be caught out thinking it will be grand if they finish 2nd or 3rd in the group.

Plenty of others will be delighted with All-Ireland quarter and bow out there so finishing 2nd or 3rd in the group will do them fine.

[Eire90]

provincial finals should be played as a two double headers Saturday and sunday

[blanketattack]

The GAA trying to convince people that the idea of 3 qualifying from groups was to avoid dead rubbers when in reality it's for financial reasons especially with the 4 preliminary 1/4s.
I don't see how dead rubbers will definitely be avoided.

In Kerry's group, if the winner of Kerry-Mayo beats the winner of Louth-Cork in the 2nd game, with the loser of Louth-Cork also losing their 2nd game, then won't the final game between the team with 2 wins v the team with 2 losses be a dead rubber?
And the other game will essentially be a dead rubber, 2nd and 3rd will be decided, just which order.

In your scenario, going into the last match the table could be:
Mayo -4
Kerry -2
Louth - 2
Cork -0
Last match is Kerry V louth and Mayo V cork

In that scenario, if cork and louth won their last matches, Louth could get top, Mayo second and Cork could get third with kerry finishing bottom.

That's unlikely, but they aren't dead rubbers.

Also, there is a benefit to fiishing 2nd over 3rd as you will (in theory) get an easier preliminary quarter final.

In that scenario Mayo v Cork is a dead rubber. Mayo have secured top on head to head results v Kerry & Louth. Cork are bottom due to head to head results v Kerry & Louth.
Kerry and Louth are already thro' to the preliminary 1/4s, just deciding who's 2nd and who's 3rd, so essentially a dead rubber,in fact in some cases finishing 3rd may be preferred.

Apologies

You are correct in that scenario.

Well presuming tiebreakers are based on head-to-head, which I've assumed but haven't actual seen any where.
Head-to-head isn't fair imo for a group of mixed seeds where there's a mix of home, away and neutral games.
It's fine in the league as you've the 8 best teams so it balances out.
If Kerry beat Mayo but end up level on points, it seems unfair that Kerry would finish ahead based on head-to-head after having home advantage in that head-to-head. I think if two teams end up level on points, and one had home advantage (and won) head-to-head shouldn't count.

Depending on the group and your ambitions the way their home/away/neutral fixtures are fixed can give a big advantage.
For Kerry, they've the ideal situation, the one tough opponent at home and then the two easier opponents either at neutral venue or away.
Other teams who's ambition is to just win one game and finish 3rd, will want their easiest opponent at home and happy to write off 2 games against big guns and play them away or neutral.

[tintin25]

Should have just been top 2 in each group and onto the quarters.  How many chances do teams need FFS.

[LeoMc]

The GAA trying to convince people that the idea of 3 qualifying from groups was to avoid dead rubbers when in reality it's for financial reasons especially with the 4 preliminary 1/4s.
I don't see how dead rubbers will definitely be avoided.

In Kerry's group, if the winner of Kerry-Mayo beats the winner of Louth-Cork in the 2nd game, with the loser of Louth-Cork also losing their 2nd game, then won't the final game between the team with 2 wins v the team with 2 losses be a dead rubber?
And the other game will essentially be a dead rubber, 2nd and 3rd will be decided, just which order.

In your scenario, going into the last match the table could be:
Mayo -4
Kerry -2
Louth - 2
Cork -0
Last match is Kerry V louth and Mayo V cork

In that scenario, if cork and louth won their last matches, Louth could get top, Mayo second and Cork could get third with kerry finishing bottom.

That's unlikely, but they aren't dead rubbers.

Also, there is a benefit to fiishing 2nd over 3rd as you will (in theory) get an easier preliminary quarter final.

In that scenario Mayo v Cork is a dead rubber. Mayo have secured top on head to head results v Kerry & Louth. Cork are bottom due to head to head results v Kerry & Louth.
Kerry and Louth are already thro' to the preliminary 1/4s, just deciding who's 2nd and who's 3rd, so essentially a dead rubber,in fact in some cases finishing 3rd may be preferred.

Is it head to head or score difference when 3 teams tie?
I know in Tyrone it is head to head where 2 teams finish level but if it is more than 2 then it is score difference.