Does anyone believe Bertie?

[Leo]

Bundles of money unaccounted for.
Fanciful dig-outs and loand from various "friends".
Key witnesses unfortunately deceased (remind you of CJH and Des Traynor?)
Unable to manage his personal finanaces because he was separated -  yet apparently capable of being Minister for Finance AND party treasurer at the same time.
That separation was OVER by seven years at the time and he was in a new "lifetime" relationship.
Broke - yet had £50,000 CASH savings at that time , huge ministerial salary, AND able to get an extra £19,000 from AIB without any paperwork.
Broke but was at more Man Utd matches than Alex Ferguson it seems.
Somebody went on an errand for him with £30,000 cash in a bag to change into punt - he doesnt know who or to what bank they went.
Faltering memory in the witness box.
Failed to co-operate with Tribunal - too complicated despite having the biggest number of personal advisors of any Taoiseach ever.
Benfiting from bogus invoices and whip-arounds.
Money laundering? - check out what it means, we're dagerously close.
Who believes him in any of this?
Apparently everyone in Fianna Fail.
They also believe in the tooth fairy and are really looking forward to Sanat Claus in a couple of weeks.
Hail our leaders. Aren't you glad our forefathers fought for this set-up?

[Leo]

I agree they re-elected them but not with a bigger mandate - in fact the FF vote was close to an all-time low.

The biggest problem with this current shower is that their energies all go into getting re-elected and they have seriously squandered the rcihes they iunherited 10 years ago.

So maybe Bertie's problems with his finances transfered into government. In  10 years they have never once got the estimates right and have wasted millions - PPARS, electronic voting, project over-spends, massive numbers of consultanats and PR spinners. We bought into all the hype.
Once the builders stopped building and the banks stopped lending the bust was bound to follow -we knew this years ago but Nero (Bertie) fiddled (word used advisedly) while we burned.
When will we waken up?

[Zapatista]

Not on your life do I believe him. He is an embarassment. The tolerance of the Irish people towards Bertie Ahern and FF in general in an embarassment. I have gien up trying to get FF supporters to admit what they have known for many years, that they a part of the biggest scam ever played on their own people. The only hope is for the Greens to grow a spine and put an end to this boys club before they wake up with fleas. The Greens must walk and bring this Government down to save face so we can have an election without the lies we where told at the start of the year.

[magickingdom]

i have to say as a lifelong member of fianna fail and long time bertie fan, i dont even believe him. standards in public life in the roi are not what they should be and hopefully when this lot retire (cause they wont quit) things will be better. the tribunals may yet be the birth of a true republic. and just on a slight tangent looking north paisley is gone in the next few years would it be asking too much for adams and mcguiness to join him? imo it would be a good thing if a new leadership took over sf/dup in the north. (already happened in the uup/sdlp) once the assembly is bedded down they should quit and let everyone start with a clean slate....

[Pietas]

I agree they re-elected them but not with a bigger mandate -

I have a notoriously bad memory and I am not going to google the election results, but I am quite sure that FF won more seats in the last election than they did in the one before. Is that not a bigger mandate?

2002 - FF 81
2007 - FF: 78

78 is a lower number than 81.  FF dropped 3 seats

[Zapatista]

They don't have to quit. They work for us. The should be told to leave.

[thebandit]

Is the alternative any better?

Not in terms of morality but in terms of ability to run the country?

[Evil Genius]

i have to say as a lifelong member of fianna fail and long time bertie fan, i dont even believe him.

Not having a pop, but are you still a "bertie fan"? How can someone be a fan of someone who lies to him, even if he (the liar) considers it is for the good of the person being lied to? 

[blast05]

The country at large knows Bertie is as guilty as charged, but when it came to the election they looked past that and re-elected him, with a bigger mandate than prviously

Yes, but the key difference is that there wasn't half as much evidence on him at the time of the election as there is now. And as for the accusations that were doing the rounds then, well people were prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt in that he would clarify everything at the tribunal. Would people give him the benefit of the doubt now ?? Would they fcuk.

To my mind, 2 key stories have emerged over the last few weeks - one being the manner and pretenses in which Des Richardson got money from NCB for Berties dig out Berties obviously just takes us for fools in expecting us to believe he knew nothing about this; the other being that there was certainly a lot of dollars floating around Irish politics at that time (including hundreds of thousands of undeclared (in the US) political fundraising in the US) which to my mind gives a lot of credence to the tribunals claims from a couple of months back re a sum that Bertie lodged being the exact equivalent of €45K at that days rates.

Is the alternative any better?

Not in terms of morality but in terms of ability to run the country?

If people continue to adopt that attitude then it will be FF for the rest of our lives. Where is the evidence to suggest they couldn't run it. One of the primary reasons they weren't elected at the last election was because FF brainwashed enough people into believing that FG "couldn't be trusted with the economy" ..... that actually looks like quite an ironic statement given the state of the economy now and i'm sure theres many the FG person now that is as well pleased they did not get elected and therefore have to take on the legacy of FF.
If somebody could outline for me what has been so brilliant about the FF governements over the last 10 years that FG wouldn't have been able to do then i would love to know.


To my mind, Berties legacy is well on the way to being in tatters and given human nature being as it is, i would have to imagine that there is a significant minority (if not majority) of FF TD's who would prefer to see him hand over the reigns at this stage. How long before we have a few more Ned O'Keefes.

[magickingdom]

i have to say as a lifelong member of fianna fail and long time bertie fan, i dont even believe him.

Not having a pop, but are you still a "bertie fan"? How can someone be a fan of someone who lies to him, even if he (the liar) considers it is for the good of the person being lied to? 

i think he should go eg, hes done some really great things and works his socks off but he has clearly lied..

[Rossfan]

I dont believe a word out of Bertie anymore.

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

I thought the story that came out at the end of last week about Padraic O'Connor denying that he was a personal friend of Ahern's and that he believed his contribution to the "whip round" was a donation to Fianna Fáil.

My take on it is that he got a few pound through dodgy enough means at a time when corruption was rife throughout political circles in Ireland and particularly within the 2 major parties. I don't believe however that he was in Haughey's league or even that he was necessarily particularly corrupt rather than simply greedy. I've seen little evidence that he actually carried out any favours in return for the money.

Certainly I've no doubt that he is a more competent taoiseach than Kenny would have been but what is truly vital is that political life in Ireland is free from corruption and Ahern's departure may well be the price that has to be paid to acheieve this goal.

[blast05]

I've seen little evidence that he actually carried out any favours in return for the money.

Fair enough. However for a man that seemed to get to go more Man Utd matches than Alex Ferguson without paying for transport or tickets then its hard to believe there wasn't some degree of quid pro quo (spel?)

and particularly within the 2 major parties

In fairness, you can't put the FG boys in the same league (apart from Lowry). They may well have put their fingers more in the greasy till if they had been in power but that is not reason enough to label them

Ultimately, Haugheys aul line about him being the most cunning and devious of them all, said in the context of a government containing P Flynn, Ray Burke, Liam Lawlor, is looking more and more like it can be taken at face value.

[Bogball XV]

I've seen little evidence that he actually carried out any favours in return for the money.

Google "Golden Island", that's a good story, but don't have the time to tell it properly now.

Certainly I've no doubt that he is a more competent taoiseach than Kenny would have been

Why? This sort of remark is bandied about time after time, yet here we are, the boom is over (or it's not as boomy anymore as Bert would say), and what have we got to show for it??

[stephenite]

I've seen little evidence that he actually carried out any favours in return for the money.

Huh, thought a lot of those mates who gave him the dig out were also rewarded with plum semi state director posts and the like. If they'd told him to f**k off would they still have got those apointments?

Would they f**k