MPs unite to fight law that will make abortions available in Northern Ireland

[Jim_Murphy_74]

A close friend and his wife faced a similar situation to Emmett and it's a terrible thing to face.  My sympathies to you Emmett.

I am a proud father of a son with Down Syndrome I cannot bear read/watch reports about countries where abortion is used in this context.   That said, I know the absolute shock and pain his diagnosis brought at the time.   

Both experiences thought me that life is far from black and white.  I have learnt to adapt my judgement accordingly.

I thought Emmett's post would maybe stir a little bit of empathy among posters here.  However, we reflect the broader discourse I witnessed in the Republic last year which is absolutist, brutish and vicious beyond belief. It pains me to read people using deeply personal, individual and traumatic events as some kind of abstract to prove your point.

Just like my experience, my friend's experience and Emmett's experience these are real people with real experience.  Similarly for the likes of  Savita:  real people, real pain, real confusion.  A reality most are lucky enough not to know.  You cannot possibly know any individual or couples internal thought processes.

The fact lads here couldn't wait a page of posts here to revert back to type, insulting each other is a stain on those coming from both sides of the argument. 

I urge people to think before you write.

/Jim.

[five points]

False conflation.

No, it's not. The author of the HSE report himself stated that Ireland's abortion laws were a significant factor in her death.

Your argument that the Eight permitted her an abortion is a smokescreen. The X case did indeed permit terminations in such cases but given it was never legislated for, it's not really relevant is it?

What has any of that to do with a late stage AIDS patient?  Terminations were permitted in cases a lot wider than those facilitated by the x case. The numbers of abortions performed annually in Irish hospitals are on public record and attest to that.

[gallsman]

False conflation.

No, it's not. The author of the HSE report himself stated that Ireland's abortion laws were a significant factor in her death.

Your argument that the Eight permitted her an abortion is a smokescreen. The X case did indeed permit terminations in such cases but given it was never legislated for, it's not really relevant is it?

What has any of that to do with a late stage AIDS patient?  Terminations were permitted in cases a lot wider than those facilitated by the x case. The numbers of abortions performed annually in Irish hospitals are on public record and attest to that.

Because we're talking about proximate cause. If Savita was given the abortion, she'd have been alive today.

[five points]

The fact lads here couldn't wait a page of posts here to revert back to type, insulting each other is a stain on those coming from both sides of the argument. 

My sympathies Jim.

But only one person here has resorted to insults.

I urge people to think before you write.

I agree.

[five points]

Because we're talking about proximate cause. If Savita was given the abortion, she'd have been alive today.

You mean if she was given the treatment to combat her sepsis? Once that set in, her poor baby was doomed anyway. An abortion on its own wouldn't have cured the sepsis.

[gallsman]

Because we're talking about proximate cause. If Savita was given the abortion, she'd have been alive today.

You mean if she was given the treatment to combat her sepsis? Once that set in, her poor baby was doomed anyway. An abortion on its own wouldn't have cured the sepsis.

The sepsis developed subsequent to her incomplete miscarriage, which I suspect you well know.

[five points]

Because we're talking about proximate cause. If Savita was given the abortion, she'd have been alive today.

You mean if she was given the treatment to combat her sepsis? Once that set in, her poor baby was doomed anyway. An abortion on its own wouldn't have cured the sepsis.

The sepsis developed subsequent to her incomplete miscarriage, which I suspect you well know.

No contradiction there though. Obvious and blatant medical mistreatment.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

My sympathies Jim.

But only one person here has resorted to insults.

No sympathies for me, I have a beautiful healthy boy and my troubles on understanding that are long past. 

The "Type" I am referring to is much more than trading insults.  It's talking about a woman who died a traumatic death without any sign of empathy towards her suffering, only trying to score points about her cause of death.  The real story there is a woman and her child dying and a distraught husband and family left behind.  That's the real story. 

Month's of hearing politicians acting as a medical experts, keyboard warriors, campaigners etc acting as medical experts using stories like hers to score points has hardened my view on this.

So I urge people to think of that too when they write.

/Jim.

Edit:  The exchange above while I was posting is exactly my point.

[five points]

Fair points Jim. Best wishes to your family and especially your son.

At the outset of this, I noted how the Savita tragedy was propagandised while those of Tanya McCabe and Dhara Kivlehan were brushed under the carpet.

But I accept your point.

Enough has been said.

[Baile Brigín 2]

Fair points Jim. Best wishes to your family and especially your son.

At the outset of this, I noted how the Savita tragedy was propagandised while those of Tanya McCabe and Dhara Kivlehan were brushed under the carpet.

But I accept your point.

Enough has been said.

All three were scandalous and hugely commented on. However 2007 and 2010 were simply too soon to have the critical mass to ensure it didn't happen again.

[Baile Brigín 2]

Because we're talking about proximate cause. If Savita was given the abortion, she'd have been alive today.

You mean if she was given the treatment to combat her sepsis? Once that set in, her poor baby was doomed anyway. An abortion on its own wouldn't have cured the sepsis.

The sepsis developed subsequent to her incomplete miscarriage, which I suspect you well know.

No contradiction there though. Obvious and blatant medical mistreatment.

...based on advice from the 'ethics committee' who had a veto power over the doctors....

[Baile Brigín 2]

There are still people who try to disassociate Savita Halepanevar's death from the topic of abortion? You, sad, twisted, pathetic c***ts.

Maybe drop the foulmouthed insults and instead read the 3 official reports into her death that each concluded that she died from mistreated sepsis.

Agreed. How is this poster allowed to get away with constant personalised insults.

Sympathy to Emmett and wife.

I cant understand why abortion could not have been legislated for on certain exceptional grounds,  instead of a complete free for all.

Because Stormont wasn't in place. Some liberalisation was happening this week one way or the other. Stormont vote in something or it defaulted to British law.

[Angelo]

Of course there's some who use abortion as a means of contraception. 200,000 in uk annually, they're not all rape, incest cases. You're naive if you think otherwise.

Again
"97.7% of abortions in England & Wales were performed under ground C - the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman."

The mental health one is a nice card to play.

We know how babies are made, we all know the consequences of the action behind them, 3 months later down the line if something has happened then it's time to face up and deal with consequences of your actions. It's a shame that your life may now be different and it's not just you anymore but that's a direct result of the actions you have taken.

I'd liken it to drink driving, there's a possibility something will go wrong when you sit into that car under the influence but if you do it then it's a decision you can't go back on and you should face the consequences.

There will be many women who have an abortion and will regret it later on in their lives, it will probably lead to mental health issues with them. It's interesting that those in favour of abortion yield out these statistics but only look at them through one lens.

Ultimately the decision to terminate a pregnancy of a perfectly healthy baby, created by your own conscious decisions and actions is the most selfish thing you could ever contemplate doing.

Right so your happy to accept the stats and figures when they fit your argument but question them when they don't? Ive stayed well clear of this argument for the most because its dominated by loonies on both sides calling the other murderers and what else. My views would be fairly similar to Tonto and other posters. I myself would view abortion as an absolute last resort if  the risk of a full term pregnancy was that high. However it must be an absolutely horrendous decision for anyone to have to make, and I wouldnt want to judge them for it, or take that choice away for a large section of society. Lets remember that abortion is already available for those who can afford to go to England. Why should people that cant be treated any differently?

I think abortion is totally morally wrong. I can understand it where it impacts on the physical health of the mother and I can see it as acceptable where the mother is put at risk but in other cases and the vast majority of cases it is due to the mother not wanting to face up to the consequences of their actions.

A horrendous decision to make, I think health grounds are the only acceptable reason to make that decision.

[Eamonnca1]

Of course there's some who use abortion as a means of contraception. 200,000 in uk annually, they're not all rape, incest cases. You're naive if you think otherwise.

Again
"97.7% of abortions in England & Wales were performed under ground C - the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman."

The mental health one is a nice card to play.

We know how babies are made, we all know the consequences of the action behind them, 3 months later down the line if something has happened then it's time to face up and deal with consequences of your actions. It's a shame that your life may now be different and it's not just you anymore but that's a direct result of the actions you have taken.

I'd liken it to drink driving, there's a possibility something will go wrong when you sit into that car under the influence but if you do it then it's a decision you can't go back on and you should face the consequences.

There will be many women who have an abortion and will regret it later on in their lives, it will probably lead to mental health issues with them. It's interesting that those in favour of abortion yield out these statistics but only look at them through one lens.

Ultimately the decision to terminate a pregnancy of a perfectly healthy baby, created by your own conscious decisions and actions is the most selfish thing you could ever contemplate doing.

I have seen come contemptible posts in my time but that takes the cake.

Mental health problems are not "a card that you can play."

Carrying a baby to full term against your wishes is not a punishment that can be dished out by victorian types.

[Eamonnca1]

I have been following this thread with interest and now feel the need to comment.

A few years back we fell pregnant for the first (and only) time. We thought everything was going well until we found out that continuing with the pregnancy would mean that my Wife's life would be at serious risk and our baby would be severely disabled and unlikely to survive to his second birthday – this was at 20 weeks. After a lot of thought and consultation we made the decision to abort.

Not a day goes by that we do feel sadness about what happened. The events will haunt us for the rest of our lives. If we are fortunate enough to fall pregnant again and have a healthy baby it may lessen the pain, I can only hope. However, do we regret the choice we made? Most definitely not. It was the right decision for us and we believe it was the right decision for our baby. It just did not make any sense to risk the life of my wife for a baby (albeit completely innocent) who would have an extremely short life with zero quality.

Having gone through what we did I really do not think that any woman (or couple) would take the decision to abort lightly. It is an extremely difficult thing to do, from the initial consultations to the build up to the day and then the aftermath.

Let's face it, the vast majority of users on this Forum are male. I feel that we can have an opinion on this very emotive matter but we cannot and should not judge any woman who makes the decision to end a pregnancy early. Ultimately it is their body and their choice. We need to trust women and have more faith in people. Society is not full of monsters. I am not saying that a woman has never made the choice to abort purely for selfish reasons but this would be very very rare and that person would have to live with that decision. In fact, I feel that the whole experience would scare off most of these types of women from actually going through with the abortion.

This is obviously a very delicate subject but there have been a lot of self-righteous and sanctimonious views expressed over the past few days. Religion can cloud judgements and I imagine that has happened in some cases.  However, I would be fairly confident that the people in question have never had the misfortune of having to make such a life changing decision - I really hope they never are in that position but if that day comes then perhaps they would be less judgemental.

Hear bloody hear.

The sanctimonious finger-wagging gobsh1tery on this thread from know-it-alls who have never been in that situation is sickening.They should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.