Messages

Donagh,

I would think that it is reasonable to argue that any active member of the IRA could be sectarian.  I would say that for every n'th degree you take it away: supporting, sympathising the argument waters down.

In the case of Sands I would say the nature of the Balmorrall attacks are a big black mark.  Economic targets is too shaky an argument for me. 

I would also question your assertion about Sands being vocal against attacks on the outside.  In the excerpts of comms you posted here previously there was a comm about how he read the newspaper about an operation and it lightened his heart to know that people were continuing the fight.  I don't know what the operation was or how sectarian it was.  Was he selective in what he was opposed to?

As for unionists, I think large swathes of unionists are at best naieve, possible ignorant of or at worst sectarian when it comes to the security forces, in particular the UDR.

/Jim.

SammyG may be wrong in his allegation about Sands' role in the IRA.  In particular being OC in the Maze would not be a reflection of his role on the outside.  This fact is refered to in Ed Moloney's & Peter Taylor's works on the area.   It is also refered to in Sean Callaghan's autobiography (for what that's worth!) and I think in one of Adam's books.  An OC was appointed in prisons and all were under his command regardless of their external rank.   That is a fact, in as much as you can know facts about secret armies.

I couldn't be arsed reading the whole 6 pages of this thread but I'm going to hazard a guess as to what the argument is about: Sands, sectarian or not.

To his defenders here:
a) He was a member of an organisation that carried out many, many sectarian acts.  You can argue till the cows come home but there are too many incidents of targetting civilians and attacks of a sectarian nature to argue otherwise.  I know supporters will trot out that their aims weren't and the closet supporters will state that their methods wrong but aims honourable.  At the end of the day you have got to accept that unionists like SammyG saw these activities as sectarian and an attack on their community.  He has got good reason, get over it.

2) The attacks on the Balmorrall furniture store had a sectarian edge to them and saw people killed (although not the particular instance Sands was arrested).  My local Sinn Féin councillor told me that these were attacks on economic targets they were not sectarian, but that they had to hit Protestant targets so as not to alienate their support base.  Fair enough but that is admitting the business targetted were protestant so in effect these were sectarian attacks.

So regardless of your own views, you should be able to see the validity of SammyG's views.  State your objections but don't vilify the guy for holding what are reasonable views.

To SammyG,

Republican supporters do not see the IRA campaign as sectarian, the fire-bombing of economics targets as sectarian and hence Bobby Sands was not sectarian.   Therefore the only issue here is his death for the 5 demands and so he must be a hero and man of principle. 

So not matter how you argue about his position in the IRA it won't change these people's view of Bobby Sands.

/Jim.

just noticed that Ann Summers has closed down on O'Connell street, and Stringfellow didnt last long either, maybe we not sophisticated after all

I'd have thought this indicated quite the opposite.

Maybe not sophisticated, liberal and tolerant would be a start. Maybe the DUP, Free Ps and part of the OO would be at home on OConnell Street with their ideas (though obviously they wouldn't be able to parade, natch, or else all hell would break loose).

Liberal and tolerant is a start but O'Connell Street is the premium street in Dublin (supposedly) and should not be marred by any of the following:

Sex shops
Fast Food joints
Amusement Arcades
Internet Cafes/Internation Phone Card shops

I had the misfortune to walk the thing last Monday and Yeats was right about the place all those years ago.  No amount of Spires, Larkins or O'Connells will change it.

Shame!

/Jim.