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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 01:20:21 PM

Title: UK v Russia
Post by: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 01:20:21 PM
What do people think of this? The UK seemed to have reached conclusions long before anything has been proven. Woe betide anybody who doesn't weigh in behind the jingoistic Government line. The rapidity & rashness  of the response is worrying imo. Boris and the Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson 2 utter clowns as per normal.
Title: Re: Uk v Russis
Post by: Syferus on March 17, 2018, 01:55:37 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 01:20:21 PM
What do people think of this? The UK seemed to have reached conclusions long before anything has been proven. Woe betide anybody who doesn't weigh in behind the jingoistic Government line. The rapidity & rashness  of the response is worrying imo. Boris and the Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson 2 utter clowns as per normal.

You're off your tits if you think it wasn't Putin. Even the Russian scientist who help develop the nerve agents thinks it's absurd a non-State actor could have carried out the attempted assassination - it's incredibly hard to weaponise this stuff.

The thread should read the West v. Russia and the OP should not contain the nonsense of yet more Brit bashing. Not the topic to be trying those tired old tricks on.

Putin has some serious contempt for democracy and the West to be so brazen in assassinating another country's citizen again. Russia are a shïtshow.
Title: Re: Uk v Russis
Post by: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 02:17:29 PM
Measured, non emotional response as expected. You're jumping to more conclusions there than the UK so you're good bedfellows.
Title: Re: Uk v Russis
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on March 17, 2018, 02:18:18 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 02:17:29 PM
Measured, non emotional response as expected. You're jumping to more conclusions there than the UK so you're good bedfellows.

You expect anything different?
Title: Re: Uk v Russis
Post by: Syferus on March 17, 2018, 02:22:03 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on March 17, 2018, 02:18:18 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 02:17:29 PM
Measured, non emotional response as expected. You're jumping to more conclusions there than the UK so you're good bedfellows.

You expect anything different?

Do you think Russia aren't behind it? Because that's utterly incredible.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 02:34:51 PM
I was waiting for someone to come along and say this is bullshit, but apparently not. Trivial enough in the grand scheme but wtf

https://twitter.com/JohnClarke1960/status/974766676213420033?s=19
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: BennyCake on March 17, 2018, 02:40:39 PM
If they reported Putin strangles kittens while watching Countdown people would believe it. Don't underestimate the ability of Britain in their use of propaganda. They've been at it for centuries.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Rossfan on March 17, 2018, 02:42:12 PM
Takes the Brits minds off the Brexit fiasco and rallies them all behind the "war effort".
When do they start bombing Moscow??
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: BennyCake on March 17, 2018, 02:45:03 PM
Maybe England really wants this World Cup?
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Syferus on March 17, 2018, 02:45:14 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 02:34:51 PM
I was waiting for someone to come along and say this is bullshit, but apparently not. Trivial enough in the grand scheme but wtf

https://twitter.com/JohnClarke1960/status/974766676213420033?s=19

Err, they do a lot of fanciful splashes for news stories. Unless you think the red Kremlin background is a legit photo fixating on 'photoshopping' a hat is high on the absurdity scale. It's not photoshopping to make you think it's a real photo when it's obviously a graphic design.

You'd have liked Corbyn's opinion piece in the Guardian where he said they shouldn't rush to judgement about the source of the nerve agent assassination. It doesn't help his image as 'Red Jeremy' to say the least. The evidence was there before he even put pen to paper so it will have went down like a lead balloon with voters.

Russia have been waging a proxy war with the West for a long time now and if you want to put your head in the sand be my guest, but don't expect people not to pull you up on it and the biases that made you make this as an anti-UK thread rather than one commenting on Russia's abhorant behaviour.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 03:01:30 PM
Funny enough if you follow UK politics on this board you'd know I'm not in anyway a fan of Corbyn, so barking up the wrong tree again.

Also, if you read my opening post you'd realise I haven't in anyway said Russia are innocent, it's the UK Government's actions / reactions that I'm questioning. It's like a PR war being hastily waged by a flailing & failing Government and dissenting voices are being demonised.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Rossfan on March 17, 2018, 03:09:40 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 03:01:30 PM
t, it's the UK Government's actions / reactions that I'm questioning. It's like a PR war being hastily waged by a flailing & failing Government and dissenting voices are being demonised.

Exactly.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Syferus on March 17, 2018, 03:10:59 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 03:01:30 PM
Funny enough if you follow UK politics on this board you'd know I'm not in anyway a fan of Corbyn, so barking up the wrong tree again.

Also, if you read my opening post you'd realise I haven't in anyway said Russia are innocent, it's the UK Government's actions / reactions that I'm questioning. It's like a PR war being hastily waged by a flailing & failing Government and dissenting voices are being demonised.

I think Corbyn is a better alternative to May and the Tories which is why I think it's even sadder that he played into the worst perceptions about himself. What he did was more damaging than saying nothing at all.

Russia have been engaging in a proxy war with the West for years - ffs, they helped that cowboy in America get elected and have been implicated in many hacks of governmental organisations and large corperations. Forget about PR wars - the West have let Russia get away with being a bad actor for too long because we don't want the hassle of a trade or energy war.

There should be no dissent on the fact that Russia is behind the attack - everything points towards that. But that won't stop people using their biases and to justify ignoring the evidence because they don't like the injured party. This is bigger than the Tories v the Left or even the UK v Russia. It's western values versus Russian lies and violence.
Title: Re: Uk v Russis
Post by: Itchy on March 17, 2018, 03:49:34 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 17, 2018, 01:55:37 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 01:20:21 PM
What do people think of this? The UK seemed to have reached conclusions long before anything has been proven. Woe betide anybody who doesn't weigh in behind the jingoistic Government line. The rapidity & rashness  of the response is worrying imo. Boris and the Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson 2 utter clowns as per normal.

You're off your tits if you think it wasn't Putin. Even the Russian scientist who help develop the nerve agents thinks it's absurd a non-State actor could have carried out the attempted assassination - it's incredibly hard to weaponise this stuff.

The thread should read the West v. Russia and the OP should not contain the nonsense of yet more Brit bashing. Not the topic to be trying those tired old tricks on.

Putin has some serious contempt for democracy and the West to be so brazen in assassinating another country's citizen again. Russia are a shïtshow.

You don't believe the Brits and others are capable of dirty tricks? The guys who sent the SAS into Ireland and said they didnt. The guys who helped murder many irish people in Dublin and Monaghan bombings. The people who discovered weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and used this evidence to start a war resulting in countless deaths - Disgusting spooks. You'd just believe anything  they release to the press?

Personally I dont know what to believe but I have to say I find it a bit odd. If i were Russian head of KGB and I wanted this double agent dead would Id have him shot, stabbed, kidnapped and buried in concrete? I would not poison him with a bizarrre & rare nerve agent that was developed and used only in Russia so I could make sure that my country would be suspected when the murder happened. Perhaps the KGB are really really stupid? Who knows the truth but I wouldnt  believe anything British "intelligence" feeds to the dumb press and the even dumber general public.
Title: Re: Uk v Russis
Post by: Syferus on March 17, 2018, 04:00:04 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 17, 2018, 03:49:34 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 17, 2018, 01:55:37 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 01:20:21 PM
What do people think of this? The UK seemed to have reached conclusions long before anything has been proven. Woe betide anybody who doesn't weigh in behind the jingoistic Government line. The rapidity & rashness  of the response is worrying imo. Boris and the Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson 2 utter clowns as per normal.

You're off your tits if you think it wasn't Putin. Even the Russian scientist who help develop the nerve agents thinks it's absurd a non-State actor could have carried out the attempted assassination - it's incredibly hard to weaponise this stuff.

The thread should read the West v. Russia and the OP should not contain the nonsense of yet more Brit bashing. Not the topic to be trying those tired old tricks on.

Putin has some serious contempt for democracy and the West to be so brazen in assassinating another country's citizen again. Russia are a shïtshow.

You don't believe the Brits and others are capable of dirty tricks? The guys who sent the SAS into Ireland and said they didnt. The guys who helped murder many irish people in Dublin and Monaghan bombings. The people who discovered weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and used this evidence to start a war resulting in countless deaths - Disgusting spooks. You'd just believe anything  they release to the press?

Personally I dont know what to believe but I have to say I find it a bit odd. If i were Russian head of KGB and I wanted this double agent dead would Id have him shot, stabbed, kidnapped and buried in concrete? I would not poison him with a bizarrre & rare nerve agent that was developed and used only in Russia so I could make sure that my country would be suspected when the murder happened. Perhaps the KGB are really really stupid? Who knows the truth but I wouldnt  believe anything British "intelligence" feeds to the dumb press and the even dumber general public.

I beleive the Brits are very capable of dirty tricks. This isn't really about the dirt under their fingernails, though. It's that Russia are on another level with this James Bonds-esque spycraft.

Be it Syria, Trump, Europe or the Ukraine they've had their hand in so much dirt recently that it's reached a point where they have no benefit of the doubt, not that there really is much doubt on this one. The sheer arrogance that they would make this attempted asssisnation with something so easily traceable back to them shows how little fûcks they have about democratic norms or even avoiding annoying their trade partners or forcing them to take action. Who else gained anything from assassinating a defected Russian spy but Putin's Russia? And who else even has the weaponised version of this nerve agent?
Title: Re: Uk v Russis
Post by: Itchy on March 17, 2018, 04:15:31 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 17, 2018, 04:00:04 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 17, 2018, 03:49:34 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 17, 2018, 01:55:37 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 01:20:21 PM
What do people think of this? The UK seemed to have reached conclusions long before anything has been proven. Woe betide anybody who doesn't weigh in behind the jingoistic Government line. The rapidity & rashness  of the response is worrying imo. Boris and the Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson 2 utter clowns as per normal.

You're off your tits if you think it wasn't Putin. Even the Russian scientist who help develop the nerve agents thinks it's absurd a non-State actor could have carried out the attempted assassination - it's incredibly hard to weaponise this stuff.

The thread should read the West v. Russia and the OP should not contain the nonsense of yet more Brit bashing. Not the topic to be trying those tired old tricks on.

Putin has some serious contempt for democracy and the West to be so brazen in assassinating another country's citizen again. Russia are a shïtshow.

You don't believe the Brits and others are capable of dirty tricks? The guys who sent the SAS into Ireland and said they didnt. The guys who helped murder many irish people in Dublin and Monaghan bombings. The people who discovered weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and used this evidence to start a war resulting in countless deaths - Disgusting spooks. You'd just believe anything  they release to the press?

Personally I dont know what to believe but I have to say I find it a bit odd. If i were Russian head of KGB and I wanted this double agent dead would Id have him shot, stabbed, kidnapped and buried in concrete? I would not poison him with a bizarrre & rare nerve agent that was developed and used only in Russia so I could make sure that my country would be suspected when the murder happened. Perhaps the KGB are really really stupid? Who knows the truth but I wouldnt  believe anything British "intelligence" feeds to the dumb press and the even dumber general public.

I beleive the Brits are very capable of dirty tricks. This isn't really about the dirt under their fingernails, though. It's that Russia are on another level with this James Bonds-esque spycraft.

Be it Syria, Trump, Europe or the Ukraine they've had their hand in so much dirt recently that it's reached a point where they have no benefit of the doubt, not that there really is much doubt on this one. The sheer arrogance that they would make this attempted asssisnation with something so easily traceable back to them shows how little fûcks they have about democratic norms or even avoiding annoying their trade partners or forcing them to take action. Who else gained anything from assassinating a defected Russian spy but Putin's Russia? And who else even has the weaponised version of this nerve agent?

That's the point you simply do not know who could gain from it. Who might gain from sanctions on Russia?
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Minder on March 17, 2018, 05:26:08 PM
Corbyn making a fool out of himself again
Title: Re: Uk v Russis
Post by: Syferus on March 17, 2018, 05:37:28 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 17, 2018, 04:15:31 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 17, 2018, 04:00:04 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 17, 2018, 03:49:34 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 17, 2018, 01:55:37 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 01:20:21 PM
What do people think of this? The UK seemed to have reached conclusions long before anything has been proven. Woe betide anybody who doesn't weigh in behind the jingoistic Government line. The rapidity & rashness  of the response is worrying imo. Boris and the Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson 2 utter clowns as per normal.

You're off your tits if you think it wasn't Putin. Even the Russian scientist who help develop the nerve agents thinks it's absurd a non-State actor could have carried out the attempted assassination - it's incredibly hard to weaponise this stuff.

The thread should read the West v. Russia and the OP should not contain the nonsense of yet more Brit bashing. Not the topic to be trying those tired old tricks on.

Putin has some serious contempt for democracy and the West to be so brazen in assassinating another country's citizen again. Russia are a shïtshow.

You don't believe the Brits and others are capable of dirty tricks? The guys who sent the SAS into Ireland and said they didnt. The guys who helped murder many irish people in Dublin and Monaghan bombings. The people who discovered weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and used this evidence to start a war resulting in countless deaths - Disgusting spooks. You'd just believe anything  they release to the pre :)ss?

Personally I dont know what to believe but I have to say I find it a bit odd. If i were Russian head of KGB and I wanted this double agent dead would Id have him shot, stabbed, kidnapped and buried in concrete? I would not poison him with a bizarrre & rare nerve agent that was developed and used only in Russia so I could make sure that my country would be suspected when the murder happened. Perhaps the KGB are really really stupid? Who knows the truth but I wouldnt  believe anything British "intelligence" feeds to the dumb press and the even dumber general public.

I beleive the Brits are very capable of dirty tricks. This isn't really about the dirt under their fingernails, though. It's that Russia are on another level with this James Bonds-esque spycraft.

Be it Syria, Trump, Europe or the Ukraine they've had their hand in so much dirt recently that it's reached a point where they have no benefit of the doubt, not that there really is much doubt on this one. The sheer arrogance that they would make this attempted asssisnation with something so easily traceable back to them shows how little fûcks they have about democratic norms or even avoiding annoying their trade partners or forcing them to take action. Who else gained anything from assassinating a defected Russian spy but Putin's Russia? And who else even has the weaponised version of this nerve agent?

That's the point you simply do not know who could gain from it. Who might gain from sanctions on Russia?

But what has been achieved bar the sabre-rattling of deporting a few bureaucrats? And that still doesn't answer who else even has the means to weaponise the nerve agent - the scientist who worked on this type of stuff for the Russian government the that I mentioned earlier said even he wouldn't know how to do that.

When Russia are just throwing up their hands denying it and not offering any evidence to the contrary or saying that their weaponised nerve agents have been stolen or compromised it's hard to not believe the most obvious answer to the this question.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Smokin Joe on March 17, 2018, 05:44:46 PM
I care not for Corbyn or Brit bashing, but I'd be a very short priced backer of Russia ordering the killing.

Either that, or people who cross Putin tend to be seriously unlucky in later life.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on March 17, 2018, 06:42:53 PM
Putin is a murderous, imperialist tyrant. Hits like this are his meat and drink.

And I'd vote for Corbyn and Labour were I in the UK, by the way.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Tony Baloney on March 17, 2018, 06:58:47 PM
Come on lads wise up, Putin all over this. Somebody said it could be the Russian Mafia as if Putin is unconnected to them!
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Esmarelda on March 17, 2018, 07:17:40 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 03:01:30 PM
Funny enough if you follow UK politics on this board you'd know I'm not in anyway a fan of Corbyn, so barking up the wrong tree again.

Also, if you read my opening post you'd realise I haven't in anyway said Russia are innocent, it's the UK Government's actions / reactions that I'm questioning. It's like a PR war being hastily waged by a flailing & failing Government and dissenting voices are being demonised.
Don't you know that doing that makes you an agent of the Kremlin? You have to pick a side benny and you better do it quick before a few more suss this thread is open.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Itchy on March 17, 2018, 08:16:36 PM
Martin mcguinness was armed in bloody Sunday and ira fired first shirs. Plenty believed that. I find it amazing people will believe a story like this without considering it could be a set up
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on March 17, 2018, 08:22:19 PM
I'd be interested to read a defence of Putin and the Russian regime that doesn't resort to whataboutery or deflection.

One that, you know, deals with the reality of what Putin and Russian regime are and what Putin and the Russian regime do.

We won't get that, because to defend Putin and Russia, you have to deny reality.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Itchy on March 17, 2018, 08:53:03 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 17, 2018, 08:22:19 PM
I'd be interested to read a defence of Putin and the Russian regime that doesn't resort to whataboutery or deflection.

One that, you know, deals with the reality of what Putin and Russian regime are and what Putin and the Russian regime do.

We won't get that, because to defend Putin and Russia, you have to deny reality.

I'm not defending any regime but if you just accept what British intelligence says without question you are thick
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Keyser soze on March 17, 2018, 11:14:16 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 17, 2018, 03:10:59 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 03:01:30 PM
Funny enough if you follow UK politics on this board you'd know I'm not in anyway a fan of Corbyn, so barking up the wrong tree again.

Also, if you read my opening post you'd realise I haven't in anyway said Russia are innocent, it's the UK Government's actions / reactions that I'm questioning. It's like a PR war being hastily waged by a flailing & failing Government and dissenting voices are being demonised.

I think Corbyn is a better alternative to May and the Tories which is why I think it's even sadder that he played into the worst perceptions about himself. What he did was more damaging than saying nothing at all.

Russia have been engaging in a proxy war with the West for years - ffs, they helped that cowboy in America get elected and have been implicated in many hacks of governmental organisations and large corperations. Forget about PR wars - the West have let Russia get away with being a bad actor for too long because we don't want the hassle of a trade or energy war.

There should be no descent on the fact that Russia is behind the attack - everything points towards that. But that won't stop people using their biases and to justify ignoring the evidence because they don't like the injured party. This is bigger than the Tories v the Left or even the UK v Russia. It's western values versus Russian lies and violence.

I would like to descent!!

If I do would that constitute a climbdown?

Maybe in future u should stick to smaller words that u understand!
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Syferus on March 17, 2018, 11:15:18 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on March 17, 2018, 11:14:16 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 17, 2018, 03:10:59 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 03:01:30 PM
Funny enough if you follow UK politics on this board you'd know I'm not in anyway a fan of Corbyn, so barking up the wrong tree again.

Also, if you read my opening post you'd realise I haven't in anyway said Russia are innocent, it's the UK Government's actions / reactions that I'm questioning. It's like a PR war being hastily waged by a flailing & failing Government and dissenting voices are being demonised.

I think Corbyn is a better alternative to May and the Tories which is why I think it's even sadder that he played into the worst perceptions about himself. What he did was more damaging than saying nothing at all.

Russia have been engaging in a proxy war with the West for years - ffs, they helped that cowboy in America get elected and have been implicated in many hacks of governmental organisations and large corperations. Forget about PR wars - the West have let Russia get away with being a bad actor for too long because we don't want the hassle of a trade or energy war.

There should be no descent on the fact that Russia is behind the attack - everything points towards that. But that won't stop people using their biases and to justify ignoring the evidence because they don't like the injured party. This is bigger than the Tories v the Left or even the UK v Russia. It's western values versus Russian lies and violence.

I would like to descent!!

If I do would that constitute a climbdown?

Maybe in future u should stick to smaller words that u understand!

Like 'u'?

It's called predictive text, bud.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Esmarelda on March 17, 2018, 11:16:09 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 01:20:21 PM
What do people think of this? The UK seemed to have reached conclusions long before anything has been proven. Woe betide anybody who doesn't weigh in behind the jingoistic Government line. The rapidity & rashness  of the response is worrying imo. Boris and the Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson 2 utter clowns as per normal.
For balance  ;D ;D ;D ;D here's the view from Russia. WARNING, may contain whataboutery

https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/03/zakharova-completely-rubbishes-britains-anti-russian-campaign-in-must-see-video/
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Itchy on March 18, 2018, 07:44:13 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 17, 2018, 11:16:09 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 01:20:21 PM
What do people think of this? The UK seemed to have reached conclusions long before anything has been proven. Woe betide anybody who doesn't weigh in behind the jingoistic Government line. The rapidity & rashness  of the response is worrying imo. Boris and the Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson 2 utter clowns as per normal.
For balance  ;D ;D ;D ;D here's the view from Russia. WARNING, may contain whataboutery

https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/03/zakharova-completely-rubbishes-britains-anti-russian-campaign-in-must-see-video/

Russian propaganda vrs British propaganda. Both the same to me.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: imtommygunn on March 18, 2018, 09:59:07 AM
Quote from: Itchy on March 18, 2018, 07:44:13 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 17, 2018, 11:16:09 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 01:20:21 PM
What do people think of this? The UK seemed to have reached conclusions long before anything has been proven. Woe betide anybody who doesn't weigh in behind the jingoistic Government line. The rapidity & rashness  of the response is worrying imo. Boris and the Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson 2 utter clowns as per normal.
For balance  ;D ;D ;D ;D here's the view from Russia. WARNING, may contain whataboutery

https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/03/zakharova-completely-rubbishes-britains-anti-russian-campaign-in-must-see-video/

Russian propaganda vrs British propaganda. Both the same to me.

Precisely itchy.

I almost wonder is it a tory plot to sink corbyn. The brits have really jumped the gun on this. Are they 100 percent sure it was the russians? I don't know that they are.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Keyser soze on March 18, 2018, 09:59:38 AM
Quote from: Syferus on March 17, 2018, 11:15:18 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on March 17, 2018, 11:14:16 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 17, 2018, 03:10:59 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 03:01:30 PM
Funny enough if you follow UK politics on this board you'd know I'm not in anyway a fan of Corbyn, so barking up the wrong tree again.

Also, if you read my opening post you'd realise I haven't in anyway said Russia are innocent, it's the UK Government's actions / reactions that I'm questioning. It's like a PR war being hastily waged by a flailing & failing Government and dissenting voices are being demonised.

I think Corbyn is a better alternative to May and the Tories which is why I think it's even sadder that he played into the worst perceptions about himself. What he did was more damaging than saying nothing at all.

Russia have been engaging in a proxy war with the West for years - ffs, they helped that cowboy in America get elected and have been implicated in many hacks of governmental organisations and large corperations. Forget about PR wars - the West have let Russia get away with being a bad actor for too long because we don't want the hassle of a trade or energy war.

There should be no descent on the fact that Russia is behind the attack - everything points towards that. But that won't stop people using their biases and to justify ignoring the evidence because they don't like the injured party. This is bigger than the Tories v the Left or even the UK v Russia. It's western values versus Russian lies and violence.

I would like to descent!!

If I do would that constitute a climbdown?

Maybe in future u should stick to smaller words that u understand!

Like 'u'?

It's called predictive text, bud.

No not like me at all.

I'm not a complete f*****g know it all.

And I am not stupid unlike you who repeatedly confuses the size of their ego with the size of their IQ.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Owen Brannigan on March 18, 2018, 10:34:49 AM
Facts:

Two people seriously ill in hospital with symptoms that are related to being affected by a nerve agent
Nerve agents are produced by Russia and known to be used by other countries such as Syria
Nerve agents are available in UK in the Porton Down facility

Media speculation:

Russian state used nerve agents to attempt to kill two of its (former) citizens in UK
Russian state facilitated other Russians to use nerve agent to attempt to kill two people in UK

Note this morning that McDonnell is going around correcting Corbyn's earlier statement and supporting May's position on the nerve gas attack.

Why bother to bring a nerve agent to the UK to kill specific people when it could be done much more simply given the resources of the Russian state.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Esmarelda on March 18, 2018, 10:51:19 AM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on March 18, 2018, 10:34:49 AM
Facts:

Two people seriously ill in hospital with symptoms that are related to being affected by a nerve agent
Nerve agents are produced by Russia and known to be used by other countries such as Syria
Nerve agents are available in UK in the Porton Down facility

Media speculation:

Russian state used nerve agents to attempt to kill two of its (former) citizens in UK
Russian state facilitated other Russians to use nerve agent to attempt to kill two people in UK

Note this morning that McDonnell is going around correcting Corbyn's earlier statement and supporting May's position on the nerve gas attack.

Why bother to bring a nerve agent to the UK to kill specific people when it could be done much more simply given the resources of the Russian state.
Nice summary Owen. Just one thing on the bit in bold above https://twitter.com/ValLisitsa/status/975041088271548417
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: imtommygunn on March 18, 2018, 10:57:29 AM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on March 18, 2018, 10:34:49 AM
Facts:

Two people seriously ill in hospital with symptoms that are related to being affected by a nerve agent
Nerve agents are produced by Russia and known to be used by other countries such as Syria
Nerve agents are available in UK in the Porton Down facility

Media speculation:

Russian state used nerve agents to attempt to kill two of its (former) citizens in UK
Russian state facilitated other Russians to use nerve agent to attempt to kill two people in UK

Note this morning that McDonnell is going around correcting Corbyn's earlier statement and supporting May's position on the nerve gas attack.

Why bother to bring a nerve agent to the UK to kill specific people when it could be done much more simply given the resources of the Russian state.

Yeah something does not feel right about this.

Also feels like a bit of , very erroneous, political opportunism by the tories which they could be very sorry about.

It really doesn't feel like there is enough, or any, proof on this. In the court of law you have to prove beyond reasonable doubt so what is different here.

Then again maybe my anti brit/tory bias makes me unable to look at it completely rationally.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on March 18, 2018, 11:04:37 AM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on March 18, 2018, 10:34:49 AM

Why bother to bring a nerve agent to the UK to kill specific people when it could be done much more simply given the resources of the Russian state.
Why did Russia bother to kill Litvinenko in the way they did?

Why would Kim Jong Un decide to have his brother poisoned with a nerve agent in a crowded international airport in full view of hundreds of people and CCTV?

There's a very obvious answer to those questions.

The other chestnuts I've heard dangled as to why Russia wouldn't do this are i) the presidential election today and ii) the World Cup.

i) The "election" is a sham, in which widespread vote rigging will occur and in which any "opposition" candidates have only got on the ballot with Putin's approval
ii) What are FIFA or anybody else connected with the World Cup such as football associations, teams, players, sponsors and media going to do over the poisoning of a spy? The answer is nothing. The World Cup being on only strengthens Putin's hand as regards an act such as the poisoning of Skripal.


Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Tony Baloney on March 18, 2018, 11:15:36 AM
Sid beat me to it. Why use a nerve agent? Why bother with polonium-210?!

Theresa May said it was "highly likely" that it was at the hand of the Russian government and I would agree.

Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Owen Brannigan on March 18, 2018, 11:29:47 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 18, 2018, 11:04:37 AM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on March 18, 2018, 10:34:49 AM

Why bother to bring a nerve agent to the UK to kill specific people when it could be done much more simply given the resources of the Russian state.
Why did Russia bother to kill Litvinenko in the way they did?

Why would Kim Jong Un decide to have his brother poisoned with a nerve agent in a crowded international airport in full view of hundreds of people and CCTV?

There's a very obvious answer to those questions.


Share your wisdom with us>
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on March 18, 2018, 01:08:16 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on March 18, 2018, 11:29:47 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 18, 2018, 11:04:37 AM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on March 18, 2018, 10:34:49 AM

Why bother to bring a nerve agent to the UK to kill specific people when it could be done much more simply given the resources of the Russian state.
Why did Russia bother to kill Litvinenko in the way they did?

Why would Kim Jong Un decide to have his brother poisoned with a nerve agent in a crowded international airport in full view of hundreds of people and CCTV?

There's a very obvious answer to those questions.


Share your wisdom with us>

I will.

It's because they want to send a message of warning to those they consider traitors by inflicting agonising and public deaths on them.

It's terrorism in the purest form of the word - to engender terror in others.

Poisoning has a long history in Russia, going back at least as far as Rasputin.

The KGB poisoned Georgi Markov on Waterloo Bridge in 1978. Russia poisoned Viktor Yuschenko in 2004 and Litvinenko in 2006. All of these incidents were very public.

There at least 14 other unexplained deaths of Russians or people linked to Ruusia in England since 2004, all associates of Boris Berezovsky. Nikolai Glushkov, an associate of Boris Berzovsky, was murdered a week ago.  Russia has a long record of this sort of stuff.

What's your "wisdom"?

The problem with your "wisdom", is to believe in it, you have to suspend disbelief that Russia is involved in any such nefarious activity.

Putin is a man who has no problem whatsoever murdering Russian citizens for personal gain. He revels in it.



Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Syferus on March 18, 2018, 01:09:49 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 18, 2018, 07:44:13 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 17, 2018, 11:16:09 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 01:20:21 PM
What do people think of this? The UK seemed to have reached conclusions long before anything has been proven. Woe betide anybody who doesn't weigh in behind the jingoistic Government line. The rapidity & rashness  of the response is worrying imo. Boris and the Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson 2 utter clowns as per normal.
For balance  ;D ;D ;D ;D here's the view from Russia. WARNING, may contain whataboutery

https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/03/zakharova-completely-rubbishes-britains-anti-russian-campaign-in-must-see-video/

Russian propaganda vrs British propaganda. Both the same to me.

You actually think British media is as state-controlled as Russian media? C'mon man.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on March 18, 2018, 01:15:42 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 18, 2018, 01:09:49 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 18, 2018, 07:44:13 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 17, 2018, 11:16:09 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 17, 2018, 01:20:21 PM
What do people think of this? The UK seemed to have reached conclusions long before anything has been proven. Woe betide anybody who doesn't weigh in behind the jingoistic Government line. The rapidity & rashness  of the response is worrying imo. Boris and the Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson 2 utter clowns as per normal.
For balance  ;D ;D ;D ;D here's the view from Russia. WARNING, may contain whataboutery

https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/03/zakharova-completely-rubbishes-britains-anti-russian-campaign-in-must-see-video/

Russian propaganda vrs British propaganda. Both the same to me.

You actually think British media is as state-controlled as Russian media? C'mon man.

He's a classic example of a useful idiot who parrots the mantra of false equivalence to avoid hard questions.

It's no wonder false equivalence is such a widely used technique by defenders of Trump.

The Russians are the masters of it.

Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on March 19, 2018, 12:07:14 AM
Putin has won re-election with 74% of the vote.

That's about 30 percentage points lower than I was expecting.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: screenexile on March 19, 2018, 09:11:23 AM
Staggering the amount of people giving Russia the benefit of the doubt!!

Put in is slowly destabilising the world to diminish the term alliances that are there to keep him in check!!
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: johnnycool on March 19, 2018, 10:56:26 AM
Quote from: screenexile on March 19, 2018, 09:11:23 AM
Staggering the amount of people giving Russia the benefit of the doubt!!

Put in is slowly destabilising the world to diminish the term alliances that are there to keep him in check!!

And even some with a working knowledge of the intelligence industry;

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/boris-johnson-issues-completely-new-story-on-russian-novichoks/ (https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/boris-johnson-issues-completely-new-story-on-russian-novichoks/)
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Esmarelda on March 19, 2018, 11:16:23 AM
Quote from: screenexile on March 19, 2018, 09:11:23 AM
Staggering the amount of people giving Russia the benefit of the doubt!!

Put in is slowly destabilising the world to diminish the term alliances that are there to keep him in check!!
There seems to be a very basic misunderstanding of what some people are saying on this thread. The opening piece, and therefore the thread, has little to do with Putin. It has to do with an allegation made by the UK government, the substance of the allegation and the evidence produced.

By your logic, if Putin was accused of anything by the UK, anything at all regardless of the evidence produced, then he is automatically guilty, because of your, and others' views on his past performance.

Applying that logic almost sounds like whataboutery; "well he did A, B and C in the past so this is just what you'd expect him to be up to and therefore it's definitely true." Not quite whataboutery, but a close relation.

If I applied the same argument to the UK government I could say, well they lied about the WMDs to justify the war in Iraq so this spreading of lies is exactly the type of thing they'd get up to.


It appears to me that bennydorano, Bennycake and Itchy are saying that they don't necessarily believe this specfic UK story. They're not saying anything about Putin. The "other side" have the case closed.

That's my reading of it anyway.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Hardy on March 19, 2018, 12:50:01 PM
Notwithstanding the particular rag in which it's published and the wilder excesses of which the writer is capable, this, to me, is the right take on the whole subject:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5486149/PETER-HITCHENS-goading-Russia-dirty-war-win.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5486149/PETER-HITCHENS-goading-Russia-dirty-war-win.html)
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on March 19, 2018, 01:45:58 PM
Quote from: Hardy on March 19, 2018, 12:50:01 PM
Notwithstanding the particular rag in which it's published and the wilder excesses of which the writer is capable, this, to me, is the right take on the whole subject:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5486149/PETER-HITCHENS-goading-Russia-dirty-war-win.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5486149/PETER-HITCHENS-goading-Russia-dirty-war-win.html)

I find this longing amongst some people to portray Putin as an anti-imperialist to be rather hilarious. He is as imperialist as they come.

Russia has shown plenty of inclination to start or get involved in wars under Putin. Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine, Syria. 

It's widely believed, and highly credibly so, that not long after becoming Prime Minister in 1999, he ordered a spate of apartment bombings against his own people which he blamed on the Chechens in order to prosecute a war which would boost his own popularity. There is no evidence that the Chechens were involved at all in these bombings.

Far be it from me to defend the Brits and the Americans over foreign policy, but exactly what "goading" of Russia have they been involved in?

Russia has been killing people in Britain with impunity for well over a decade. The Brits have made very little noise about this, far less than they should have, likely because i) they're petrified of the Russians and ii) because Britain is a haven for dirty Russian money.

In 2012 Obama laughed at the notion that Russia was a threat to US national security and international security. He told Romney "the 80s wants its foreign policy back". That's not goading. If anything Obama took the Russian threat far too lightly.

Sovereign countries have the right to decide on their own foreign policy. If they want to join NATO, what business of Russia's is it?

There is no such a thing as "Russia's backyard". Not if you believe that international borders are to mean anything.

Trump's tactics of always needing an enemy were not licked off the ground. They come from Putin. Putin is a dictator. A dictator, and a wannabe dictator, always needs an enemy.

Putin has relentlessly cultivated the west as an enemy, because, to be a dictator, that's what you have to do to get people behind you.

Russian threats to western security are not imagined, they are very real. Russia's campaign to undermine western democracy by giving support to far-right politicians, both financial and through internet-driven mass propaganda is not imagined. It couldn't be more real.

Who in the west is talking about war against Russia? Putin is the one who keeps testing and testing and testing the boundaries to see what he can get away with. If anybody wants war, it's him.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Syferus on March 19, 2018, 03:38:03 PM
The fact he got away with waging a war against the Ukraine so easily seems to be the point at which Putin realised he didn't even need to make a perfunctory attempt to appear not to be a self-interested dictator. He literally invaded the Ukraine without a casus belli and occupied it. All bets were off after that. He has became progressively more transparently evil in recent years.

The reason he's used such absurdly complicated and identifiable assassination vectors is because he want any and all potential defectors or leaks to know exactly what happens when you cross him, what lengths he will go to and how little regard he has for another nation's sovereignty when carrying out these acts. The message is if you cross the Russian Tsar you are never safe. He couldn't give a shît what Britain or the West thinks.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 04:13:33 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on March 19, 2018, 11:16:23 AM
Quote from: screenexile on March 19, 2018, 09:11:23 AM
Staggering the amount of people giving Russia the benefit of the doubt!!

Put in is slowly destabilising the world to diminish the term alliances that are there to keep him in check!!
There seems to be a very basic misunderstanding of what some people are saying on this thread. The opening piece, and therefore the thread, has little to do with Putin. It has to do with an allegation made by the UK government, the substance of the allegation and the evidence produced.

By your logic, if Putin was accused of anything by the UK, anything at all regardless of the evidence produced, then he is automatically guilty, because of your, and others' views on his past performance.

Applying that logic almost sounds like whataboutery; "well he did A, B and C in the past so this is just what you'd expect him to be up to and therefore it's definitely true." Not quite whataboutery, but a close relation.

If I applied the same argument to the UK government I could say, well they lied about the WMDs to justify the war in Iraq so this spreading of lies is exactly the type of thing they'd get up to.


It appears to me that bennydorano, Bennycake and Itchy are saying that they don't necessarily believe this specfic UK story. They're not saying anything about Putin. The "other side" have the case closed.

That's my reading of it anyway.

Exactly. I'm no defender of Putin. However I refuse to trust any auld story mi5 or mi6 throw out as they have shown before what liars they are
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: bennydorano on March 19, 2018, 04:47:59 PM
Hitchen's article does reflect the point I've been making (that Putin is a nasty piece of work point is neither here nor there), What is the point of the UK's actions? The hastiness of it? what is their endgame? Hitchens doesn't go into that territory but I do think there's an element of Brexit deflection, teeing up Corbyn for a self-implosion & May hoping it might be the thing that saves her personally - her Falklands.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Syferus on March 19, 2018, 04:56:07 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 19, 2018, 04:47:59 PM
Hitchen's article does reflects the point I've been making (the Putin is a nasty piece of work point is neither here nor there), What is the point of the UK's actions? The hastiness of it? what is their endgame? Hitchens doesn't go into that territory but I do think there's an element of Brexit deflection, teeing up Corbyn for a self-implosion & May hoping it might be the thing that saves her personally - her Falklands.

There's plenty of politicking going on now but you still have to call a spade a spade. If Corbyn decides to help the Tories and feed into all the worst perceptions about him that is his problem and neither here nor there - the Russians committed this act of terror.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:29:19 PM
Thank God there are good moral upstanding people in politics outside if Russia

https://www.channel4.com/news/cambridge-analytica-revealed-trumps-election-consultants-filmed-saying-they-use-bribes-and-sex-workers-to-entrap-politicians-investigation
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on March 19, 2018, 07:34:22 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:29:19 PM
Thank God there are good moral upstanding people in politics outside if Russia

https://www.channel4.com/news/cambridge-analytica-revealed-trumps-election-consultants-filmed-saying-they-use-bribes-and-sex-workers-to-entrap-politicians-investigation
Cambridge Analytica were used by Trump, who is used by Putin, and the campaigners for Brexit, which benefits Putin.

It's another branch of the internet-driven mass propaganda approach that the Russians specialise in.

Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:37:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 19, 2018, 07:34:22 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:29:19 PM
Thank God there are good moral upstanding people in politics outside if Russia

https://www.channel4.com/news/cambridge-analytica-revealed-trumps-election-consultants-filmed-saying-they-use-bribes-and-sex-workers-to-entrap-politicians-investigation
Cambridge Analytica were used by Trump, who is used by Putin, and the campaigners for Brexit, which benefits Putin.

It's another branch of the internet-driven mass propaganda approach that the Russians specialise in.

Putin kidnapped Shergar too I heard. Well Trump did but Putin told him to. A spook in MI5 told me.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 09:54:22 PM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1476722/Porton-Down-unlawful-killing-verdict-opens-gates-to-claims.html
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Therealdonald on March 19, 2018, 10:14:52 PM
Do you not think it's got to the stage now though where Putin is fed up with the UK and Uncle Sam's hypocrisy? I find him as intriguing a man as there is in the world or has been in the world for the past 40 years. He certainly is a dictator and has committed serious crimes but it can't be denied how interesting he is.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Syferus on March 19, 2018, 10:32:21 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on March 19, 2018, 10:14:52 PM
Do you not think it's got to the stage now though where Putin is fed up with the UK and Uncle Sam's hypocrisy? I find him as intriguing a man as there is in the world or has been in the world for the past 40 years. He certainly is a dictator and has committed serious crimes but it can't be denied how interesting he is.

He's a fallow imitation of Stalin. He's not really interesting even as a curio. Russia had a chance for a new beginning and chose a KGB strongman. When the world goes renewable they are so fûcked it isn't funny. And few will be all that upset about it.

If he was smart he would have used the money to develop other industries and modernise Russia as an open society that people want to do business with rather than feel compelled to do business with. Instead he enriched himself and brought about the era of the oligarch.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: trileacman on March 19, 2018, 10:46:57 PM
Quote from: Hardy on March 19, 2018, 12:50:01 PM
Notwithstanding the particular rag in which it's published and the wilder excesses of which the writer is capable, this, to me, is the right take on the whole subject:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5486149/PETER-HITCHENS-goading-Russia-dirty-war-win.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5486149/PETER-HITCHENS-goading-Russia-dirty-war-win.html)

Sums up my sentiments also. Pity such a reasoned article could appear in such a rag.

Russia most likely killed Litvenyenko and poisoned Skripal. They're hoods but we're (the West) involved in just as many dirty tricks as them and most of Russia's ploys have been in response to unnecessary foreign intervention that has destabilised regions and brought suffering to millions.

The Russians fucked about in Ukraine after the EU sought to spread influence over former Russian satellite states. Russians remain particularly distrustful of the EU as a proxy NATO grouping and since WW2 have always distrusted the Germans. Not without cause given the manner in which slavs and communists were viewed by Germans in the not so distant past. Several posters have expressed distrust of the English, tories and secret service, mostly for offences against the Irish that occurred longer ago or appear more minor that Russia/German grievances. The point is that Russian distrust of the EU is in some small regard understandable.

The EU rushed to become involved in domestic demonstrations against what was a democratically elected Ukrainian president offering conditions and support to the opposition who happened to be pro-EU and anti--Russia. That was meddling in the domestic affairs of a sovereign democratic nation, an action which is now a favourite stick to beat the Russians with. The Russians responded by increasing tensions and propagating a civil war. Several opportunities existed to appease matters and mediate with the Russians but the EU viewed Russian involvement in the Ukrainian situation as interference whilst oblivious to their own actions as the same.

Now I'm not a Russian apologist but some f**king international diplomacy by the West wouldn't have gone amiss in the last 10 years. We shared amenable relations with Russia for 15 years after the fall of communism and if we'd have been a bit more considerate and careful around Ukraine we could have averted this messy standoff with Russia. Russia plays by some dirty tricks in this new cold war but as an underdog in this fight it has to. Russian trade and GDP is menial compared to the US and EU-27. Economic sanctions are hammer blows to them whilst their actions against us only offer to embarrass our notions of sovereignty and self proclaimed ability to enforce justice internationally.

We can seek appeasement with Russia and still end up as the bigger dog. Like the smaller man in the fight they have to keep going to save face but the collective strength of the Western nations means we can, and should, seek to diffuse this stand-off. Destabilisation of a nuclear power is exceptionally poor strategy, an approach I'd only expect of some half-cooked, German-American, billionaire megalomaniac.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 01:13:39 AM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:37:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 19, 2018, 07:34:22 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:29:19 PM
Thank God there are good moral upstanding people in politics outside if Russia

https://www.channel4.com/news/cambridge-analytica-revealed-trumps-election-consultants-filmed-saying-they-use-bribes-and-sex-workers-to-entrap-politicians-investigation
Cambridge Analytica were used by Trump, who is used by Putin, and the campaigners for Brexit, which benefits Putin.

It's another branch of the internet-driven mass propaganda approach that the Russians specialise in.

Putin kidnapped Shergar too I heard. Well Trump did but Putin told him to. A spook in MI5 told me.

A rather pathetic response.

Putin is as white as the snow in Siberia if you're to believe some posters here.

This discussion about Russia is proving a very interesting thought experiment, I must say.





Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 01:27:16 AM
Quote from: Syferus on March 19, 2018, 10:32:21 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on March 19, 2018, 10:14:52 PM
Do you not think it's got to the stage now though where Putin is fed up with the UK and Uncle Sam's hypocrisy? I find him as intriguing a man as there is in the world or has been in the world for the past 40 years. He certainly is a dictator and has committed serious crimes but it can't be denied how interesting he is.

He's a fallow imitation of Stalin. He's not really interesting even as a curio. Russia had a chance for a new beginning and chose a KGB strongman. When the world goes renewable they are so fûcked it isn't funny. And few will be all that upset about it.

If he was smart he would have used the money to develop other industries and modernise Russia as an open society that people want to do business with rather than feel compelled to do business with. Instead he enriched himself and brought about the era of the oligarch.

The gas thing is Putin actually came to power because the Russians decided to appoint a new Prime Minister and presumed successor to Yeltsin based on a public competition to find out Russia's favourite fictional hero.

The public chose a character who was a Russian spy inside the Nazis during World War II, and Putin was the best fit with this character the regime could find, him having been a KGB spy in East Germany.

He didn't bring about the era of the oligarch, but he did ramp the already rampant corruption within the country, with the main beneficiary being himself.

Putin's problem is he has many billions (Bill Browder estimates it at around 200 billion US dollars) stashed all over Europe and he's petrified of it being appropriated. He's also petrified what will happen to him if and when he eventually has to step down or is deposed.

Thankfully for him he has a willing army of useful idiots willing to do his bidding on Irish internet forums, which I'm sure he'll be happy about - it might even save him the few bob he'd have to spend to get paid trolls to do his bidding, although there are plenty of those too.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Itchy on March 20, 2018, 07:05:43 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 01:13:39 AM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:37:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 19, 2018, 07:34:22 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:29:19 PM
Thank God there are good moral upstanding people in politics outside if Russia

https://www.channel4.com/news/cambridge-analytica-revealed-trumps-election-consultants-filmed-saying-they-use-bribes-and-sex-workers-to-entrap-politicians-investigation
Cambridge Analytica were used by Trump, who is used by Putin, and the campaigners for Brexit, which benefits Putin.

It's another branch of the internet-driven mass propaganda approach that the Russians specialise in.

Putin kidnapped Shergar too I heard. Well Trump did but Putin told him to. A spook in MI5 told me.

A rather pathetic response.

Putin is as white as the snow in Siberia if you're to believe some posters here.

This discussion about Russia is proving a very interesting thought experiment, I must say.

Point out where anyone 9n this thread said or inferred he was white as snow. You are just making that up. That's pathetic
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: johnnycool on March 20, 2018, 10:24:53 AM
Quote from: Syferus on March 19, 2018, 10:32:21 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on March 19, 2018, 10:14:52 PM
Do you not think it's got to the stage now though where Putin is fed up with the UK and Uncle Sam's hypocrisy? I find him as intriguing a man as there is in the world or has been in the world for the past 40 years. He certainly is a dictator and has committed serious crimes but it can't be denied how interesting he is.

He's a fallow imitation of Stalin. He's not really interesting even as a curio. Russia had a chance for a new beginning and chose a KGB strongman. When the world goes renewable they are so fûcked it isn't funny. And few will be all that upset about it.

If he was smart he would have used the money to develop other industries and modernise Russia as an open society that people want to do business with rather than feel compelled to do business with. Instead he enriched himself and brought about the era of the oligarch.

I always thought it was Boris Yeltsin who allowed the carve up of the old state industries which created the oligarchs who then bought up half London and fund the Tory Party?
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 10:34:39 AM
Quote from: Itchy on March 20, 2018, 07:05:43 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 01:13:39 AM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:37:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 19, 2018, 07:34:22 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:29:19 PM
Thank God there are good moral upstanding people in politics outside if Russia

https://www.channel4.com/news/cambridge-analytica-revealed-trumps-election-consultants-filmed-saying-they-use-bribes-and-sex-workers-to-entrap-politicians-investigation
Cambridge Analytica were used by Trump, who is used by Putin, and the campaigners for Brexit, which benefits Putin.

It's another branch of the internet-driven mass propaganda approach that the Russians specialise in.

Putin kidnapped Shergar too I heard. Well Trump did but Putin told him to. A spook in MI5 told me.

A rather pathetic response.

Putin is as white as the snow in Siberia if you're to believe some posters here.

This discussion about Russia is proving a very interesting thought experiment, I must say.

Point out where anyone 9n this thread said or inferred he was white as snow. You are just making that up. That's pathetic
On this thread we've had copious amounts of whataboutery, deflection, sarcasm and excuse making for Russia. False equivalence, the tool of the reality denier, has, predictably, been invoked more than once.

We've been asked "what is the Brits' end game?"

Not "what is Russia's end game?", which is a far, far more pertinent question.

And all the horrid shit Putin has got up to over the years is simply ignored by yourself and others.

All this amounts to defence of Russia, in other words. These are the exact tactics the Russians themselves use. It's almost like yourself and some other posters had read a list of Russian talking points and decided to try and keep the conversation limited to such.

So you'll forgive me if I think it's rather obvious that some people's true motives are not what they say they are.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Hardy on March 20, 2018, 10:42:41 AM
Putting the shinners in the shade - vote very, very, very often:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dicJ5nli3JA&t=5m51s
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 10:55:36 AM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2018, 10:24:53 AM
Quote from: Syferus on March 19, 2018, 10:32:21 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on March 19, 2018, 10:14:52 PM
Do you not think it's got to the stage now though where Putin is fed up with the UK and Uncle Sam's hypocrisy? I find him as intriguing a man as there is in the world or has been in the world for the past 40 years. He certainly is a dictator and has committed serious crimes but it can't be denied how interesting he is.

He's a fallow imitation of Stalin. He's not really interesting even as a curio. Russia had a chance for a new beginning and chose a KGB strongman. When the world goes renewable they are so fûcked it isn't funny. And few will be all that upset about it.

If he was smart he would have used the money to develop other industries and modernise Russia as an open society that people want to do business with rather than feel compelled to do business with. Instead he enriched himself and brought about the era of the oligarch.

I always thought it was Boris Yeltsin who allowed the carve up of the old state industries which created the oligarchs who then bought up half London and fund the Tory Party?

The oligarchs came about through the crazy "Washington Consensus" programme imposed on Russia after the fall of the USSR.

Basically what happened was that "the sharpest elbows" (that's a euphemism) engaged in all sorts of jiggery pokery (again a euphemism), both financial and otherwise, to buy up former state industries for a song. Corruption and violence was rampant from the start.

When Putin came to power he made a big play of deciding to go after the original oligarchs because he knew this would be popular with the people. But he merely replaced them with his own cronies, and creamed off the profits for them, but mainly for himself.

The original oligarchs either fled the country and laundered their money to England or elsewhere, or cut Putin in on their riches if they wanted to stay onside with him.

If you were "offside" with him, as Berezovsky was, you had a big problem. Berezovsky, as well as a huge amount of his circle in England, are now dead. This is not a coincidence.






Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Arthur_Friend on March 20, 2018, 11:54:29 AM
Aye dead on Sid. You read a book and now you're an expert on everything Russia.

"Basically what happened was..."  ::)
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: screenexile on March 20, 2018, 11:59:10 AM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on March 20, 2018, 11:54:29 AM
Aye dead on Sid. You read a book and now you're an expert on everything Russia.

"Basically what happened was..."  ::)

He's not wrong that actually did happen!!

Get a watch of this if you have the time . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkRXLDnxNKw&t=634s
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: bennydorano on March 20, 2018, 01:13:32 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 10:34:39 AM
Quote from: Itchy on March 20, 2018, 07:05:43 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 01:13:39 AM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:37:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 19, 2018, 07:34:22 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:29:19 PM
Thank God there are good moral upstanding people in politics outside if Russia

https://www.channel4.com/news/cambridge-analytica-revealed-trumps-election-consultants-filmed-saying-they-use-bribes-and-sex-workers-to-entrap-politicians-investigation
Cambridge Analytica were used by Trump, who is used by Putin, and the campaigners for Brexit, which benefits Putin.

It's another branch of the internet-driven mass propaganda approach that the Russians specialise in.

Putin kidnapped Shergar too I heard. Well Trump did but Putin told him to. A spook in MI5 told me.

A rather pathetic response.

Putin is as white as the snow in Siberia if you're to believe some posters here.

This discussion about Russia is proving a very interesting thought experiment, I must say.

Point out where anyone 9n this thread said or inferred he was white as snow. You are just making that up. That's pathetic
On this thread we've had copious amounts of whataboutery, deflection, sarcasm and excuse making for Russia. False equivalence, the tool of the reality denier, has, predictably, been invoked more than once.

We've been asked "what is the Brits' end game?"

Not "what is Russia's end game?", which is a far, far more pertinent question.

And all the horrid shit Putin has got up to over the years is simply ignored by yourself and others.

All this amounts to defence of Russia, in other words. These are the exact tactics the Russians themselves use. It's almost like yourself and some other posters had read a list of Russian talking points and decided to try and keep the conversation limited to such.

So you'll forgive me if I think it's rather obvious that some people's true motives are not what they say they are.
I framed the opening post very deliberately to avoid a Putin / Russia shit fest, I would have though it was not that hard to grasp, it's you who has went off down a rabbit hole. Read what's written and not what you think is written might be a good starting point.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 03:13:25 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 20, 2018, 01:13:32 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 10:34:39 AM
Quote from: Itchy on March 20, 2018, 07:05:43 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 01:13:39 AM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:37:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 19, 2018, 07:34:22 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:29:19 PM
Thank God there are good moral upstanding people in politics outside if Russia

https://www.channel4.com/news/cambridge-analytica-revealed-trumps-election-consultants-filmed-saying-they-use-bribes-and-sex-workers-to-entrap-politicians-investigation
Cambridge Analytica were used by Trump, who is used by Putin, and the campaigners for Brexit, which benefits Putin.

It's another branch of the internet-driven mass propaganda approach that the Russians specialise in.

Putin kidnapped Shergar too I heard. Well Trump did but Putin told him to. A spook in MI5 told me.

A rather pathetic response.

Putin is as white as the snow in Siberia if you're to believe some posters here.

This discussion about Russia is proving a very interesting thought experiment, I must say.

Point out where anyone 9n this thread said or inferred he was white as snow. You are just making that up. That's pathetic
On this thread we've had copious amounts of whataboutery, deflection, sarcasm and excuse making for Russia. False equivalence, the tool of the reality denier, has, predictably, been invoked more than once.

We've been asked "what is the Brits' end game?"

Not "what is Russia's end game?", which is a far, far more pertinent question.

And all the horrid shit Putin has got up to over the years is simply ignored by yourself and others.

All this amounts to defence of Russia, in other words. These are the exact tactics the Russians themselves use. It's almost like yourself and some other posters had read a list of Russian talking points and decided to try and keep the conversation limited to such.

So you'll forgive me if I think it's rather obvious that some people's true motives are not what they say they are.
I framed the opening post very deliberately to avoid a Putin / Russia shit fest, I would have though it was not that hard to grasp, it's you who has went off down a rabbit hole. Read what's written and not what you think is written might be a good starting point.

You don't get to decide what's discussed and what's not in order to twist a debate to favour one side.

You can't have a discussion in relation to anything involving the Russian regime and not talk about the murderous, corrupt, tyrannical nature of that regime.

That would be a bit like having a debate about the merits of Lance Armstrong's cycling career but saying that any discussion of his doping is off-limits.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: AQMP on March 20, 2018, 03:26:36 PM
I notice that the police have given very little info in how their investigation is going.  Apart from "It was Russia wot done it" from a number of sources there is virtually no information in the public domain about the key questions (and I accept this is probably a very complex case) e.g.

When was the nerve agent administered?
Where was it administered?
How was it administered?
Who administered it?
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 03:29:23 PM
Given that there seem to be so many people who prefer to believe the Russian line on this, and we all know the Russians are very trustworthy, I'd be very interested to hear some conspiracy theories about whodunnit.

Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Syferus on March 20, 2018, 03:35:38 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on March 20, 2018, 01:13:32 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 10:34:39 AM
Quote from: Itchy on March 20, 2018, 07:05:43 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 01:13:39 AM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:37:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 19, 2018, 07:34:22 PM
Quote from: Itchy on March 19, 2018, 07:29:19 PM
Thank God there are good moral upstanding people in politics outside if Russia

https://www.channel4.com/news/cambridge-analytica-revealed-trumps-election-consultants-filmed-saying-they-use-bribes-and-sex-workers-to-entrap-politicians-investigation
Cambridge Analytica were used by Trump, who is used by Putin, and the campaigners for Brexit, which benefits Putin.

It's another branch of the internet-driven mass propaganda approach that the Russians specialise in.

Putin kidnapped Shergar too I heard. Well Trump did but Putin told him to. A spook in MI5 told me.

A rather pathetic response.

Putin is as white as the snow in Siberia if you're to believe some posters here.

This discussion about Russia is proving a very interesting thought experiment, I must say.

Point out where anyone 9n this thread said or inferred he was white as snow. You are just making that up. That's pathetic
On this thread we've had copious amounts of whataboutery, deflection, sarcasm and excuse making for Russia. False equivalence, the tool of the reality denier, has, predictably, been invoked more than once.

We've been asked "what is the Brits' end game?"

Not "what is Russia's end game?", which is a far, far more pertinent question.

And all the horrid shit Putin has got up to over the years is simply ignored by yourself and others.

All this amounts to defence of Russia, in other words. These are the exact tactics the Russians themselves use. It's almost like yourself and some other posters had read a list of Russian talking points and decided to try and keep the conversation limited to such.

you'll forgive me if I think it's rather obvious that some people's true motives are not what they say they are.
I framed the opening post very deliberately to avoid a Putin / Russia shit fest, I would have though it was not that hard to grasp, it's you who has went off down a rabbit hole. Read what's written and not what you think is written might be a good starting point.

You seem to be disappointed this thread didn't devolve into the usual Brit-bashing that is common here. You need to pick your punches and when Russia uses chemical weapons to assassinate a British citizens you need to be less tone-deaf than to make this type of thread. Russia is the issue and the star of this show.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Esmarelda on March 20, 2018, 03:51:13 PM
Now you know how the Crimeans felt benny. ;D ;D

Could've been an interesting thread but these things happen.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: red hander on March 20, 2018, 06:33:20 PM
The guy was a traitor. I feel sorry for his daughter, but he knew what game he was in. If this was a British defector in Moscow, responsible for the deaths/ exposure of British agents in Russia, and he was taken out by MI6, the Sun and Mail would be in total jubilation mode
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Syferus on March 20, 2018, 06:45:33 PM
Quote from: red hander on March 20, 2018, 06:33:20 PM
The guy was a traitor. I feel sorry for his daughter, but he knew what game he was in. If this was a British defector in Moscow, responsible for the deaths/ exposure of British agents in Russia, and he was taken out by MI6, the Sun and Mail would be in total jubilation mode

Do you have a point?
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: red hander on March 20, 2018, 07:02:19 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 20, 2018, 06:45:33 PM
Quote from: red hander on March 20, 2018, 06:33:20 PM
The guy was a traitor. I feel sorry for his daughter, but he knew what game he was in. If this was a British defector in Moscow, responsible for the deaths/ exposure of British agents in Russia, and he was taken out by MI6, the Sun and Mail would be in total jubilation mode

Do you have a point?

Yeah, f**k him
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Syferus on March 20, 2018, 07:03:22 PM
Quote from: red hander on March 20, 2018, 07:02:19 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 20, 2018, 06:45:33 PM
Quote from: red hander on March 20, 2018, 06:33:20 PM
The guy was a traitor. I feel sorry for his daughter, but he knew what game he was in. If this was a British defector in Moscow, responsible for the deaths/ exposure of British agents in Russia, and he was taken out by MI6, the Sun and Mail would be in total jubilation mode

Do you have a point?

Yeah, f**k him

:-\

Strange, strange take on Russia using chemical weapons on EU soil.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: red hander on March 20, 2018, 07:13:17 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 20, 2018, 07:03:22 PM
Quote from: red hander on March 20, 2018, 07:02:19 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 20, 2018, 06:45:33 PM
Quote from: red hander on March 20, 2018, 06:33:20 PM
The guy was a traitor. I feel sorry for his daughter, but he knew what game he was in. If this was a British defector in Moscow, responsible for the deaths/ exposure of British agents in Russia, and he was taken out by MI6, the Sun and Mail would be in total jubilation mode

Do you have a point?

Yeah, f**k him

:-\

Strange, strange take on Russia using chemical weapons on EU soil.

You've confused me with somebody who cares what you think
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Syferus on March 20, 2018, 07:24:31 PM
Quote from: red hander on March 20, 2018, 07:13:17 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 20, 2018, 07:03:22 PM
Quote from: red hander on March 20, 2018, 07:02:19 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 20, 2018, 06:45:33 PM
Quote from: red hander on March 20, 2018, 06:33:20 PM
The guy was a traitor. I feel sorry for his daughter, but he knew what game he was in. If this was a British defector in Moscow, responsible for the deaths/ exposure of British agents in Russia, and he was taken out by MI6, the Sun and Mail would be in total jubilation mode

Do you have a point?

Yeah, f**k him

:-\

Strange, strange take on Russia using chemical weapons on EU soil.

You've confused me with somebody who cares what you think

You've confused me for someone that cares about your validation.

I'm far from in the minority when it comes to finding your heartlessness abhorant.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Gmac on March 20, 2018, 07:55:00 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 03:29:23 PM
Given that there seem to be so many people who prefer to believe the Russian line on this, and we all know the Russians are very trustworthy, I'd be very interested to hear some conspiracy theories about whodunnit.
doveryai, no proveryai
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Itchy on March 20, 2018, 08:20:30 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 03:29:23 PM
Given that there seem to be so many people who prefer to believe the Russian line on this, and we all know the Russians are very trustworthy, I'd be very interested to hear some conspiracy theories about whodunnit.

How about Ukrainians? Maybe the Brita or maybe a rogue individual with a score to settle. But sure you know everything about not only Russia but you also know my true  motives so no point in me guessing.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: red hander on March 20, 2018, 08:23:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 20, 2018, 07:24:31 PM
Quote from: red hander on March 20, 2018, 07:13:17 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 20, 2018, 07:03:22 PM
Quote from: red hander on March 20, 2018, 07:02:19 PM
Quote from: Syferus on March 20, 2018, 06:45:33 PM
Quote from: red hander on March 20, 2018, 06:33:20 PM
The guy was a traitor. I feel sorry for his daughter, but he knew what game he was in. If this was a British defector in Moscow, responsible for the deaths/ exposure of British agents in Russia, and he was taken out by MI6, the Sun and Mail would be in total jubilation mode

Do you have a point?

Yeah, f**k him

:-\

Strange, strange take on Russia using chemical weapons on EU soil.

You've confused me with somebody who cares what you think

You've confused me for someone that cares about your validation.

I'm far from in the minority when it comes to finding your heartlessness abhorant.

Why, did you take a poll?
I'm far from in the minority when it comes to finding your spelling abhorrent
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Arthur_Friend on March 20, 2018, 09:34:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 03:29:23 PM
Given that there seem to be so many people who prefer to believe the Russian line on this, and we all know the Russians are very trustworthy, I'd be very interested to hear some conspiracy theories about whodunnit.

The only conspiracy theory mooted so far is that the Russian government did it. Most sensible people are waiting for evidence before jumping to conclusions.

Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 09:36:56 PM
Quote from: red hander on March 20, 2018, 06:33:20 PM
The guy was a traitor. I feel sorry for his daughter, but he knew what game he was in. If this was a British defector in Moscow, responsible for the deaths/ exposure of British agents in Russia, and he was taken out by MI6, the Sun and Mail would be in total jubilation mode
"But wait, look at my imagine hypothetical reactions from a couple of English tabloids to an event that hasn't actually happened!"

What is your point?

Is it that Putin would and should just sit there like a good little boy if the Brits were murdering a load of people they didn't like in Russia?

Is it that the Brits should be allowed poison or stage "suicides" of a load of former IRA members in the six counties because they were "traitors" to the UK during the Troubles?

Because that seems to be the implication.



Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 09:44:00 PM
Quote from: Arthur_Friend on March 20, 2018, 09:34:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 03:29:23 PM
Given that there seem to be so many people who prefer to believe the Russian line on this, and we all know the Russians are very trustworthy, I'd be very interested to hear some conspiracy theories about whodunnit.

The only conspiracy theory mooted so far is that the Russian government did it. Most sensible people are waiting for evidence before jumping to conclusions.
Presumably, when a bomb goes off in Paris or Brussels or London, or if there's a mass shooting incident, and we find that a Muslim or Muslims perpetrated it, you're one of these people that thinks it's a conspiracy theory if ISIS are suspected of being to blame?

Presumably, back in those dark days when things happened like a gunman walking into a bookmakers or a pub in a majority Catholic area and shooting a load of innocent people to death, you would have thought it was a conspiracy theory when Loyalists were immediately suspected, yes?

Or maybe, just maybe* it's just a case of the bleedin' obvious.

To think otherwise, you'd need a rather fantastical imagination.

*No maybe about it.

Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: seafoid on March 20, 2018, 09:52:03 PM
Russia has form murdering "traitors" going back to at least Trotsky  . And the indications are that Russia colluded with the Trump campaign. This is why Trump will sack Mueller. It also explains this :

https://youtu.be/VeaOmeBlmAo

Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: bennydorano on March 20, 2018, 09:53:30 PM
The Anti Russian Alliance is a bit inconsistent. Hardball last week, ball licking this week. It's all theatre.

Russia election: Trump congratulates Putin over victory - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43476895
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Milltown Row2 on March 21, 2018, 09:11:40 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2018, 09:36:56 PM
Quote from: red hander on March 20, 2018, 06:33:20 PM
The guy was a traitor. I feel sorry for his daughter, but he knew what game he was in. If this was a British defector in Moscow, responsible for the deaths/ exposure of British agents in Russia, and he was taken out by MI6, the Sun and Mail would be in total jubilation mode
"But wait, look at my imagine hypothetical reactions from a couple of English tabloids to an event that hasn't actually happened!"

What is your point?

Is it that Putin would and should just sit there like a good little boy if the Brits were murdering a load of people they didn't like in Russia?

Is it that the Brits should be allowed poison or stage "suicides" of a load of former IRA members in the six counties because they were "traitors" to the UK during the Troubles?

Because that seems to be the implication.

That escalated quickly, to UK v Russia to now the RA?  always comes back to here  ;D
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: downtown on March 26, 2018, 05:17:32 PM
Lots of Russians kicked out today!! Everyone showing there support to the UK
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Syferus on March 26, 2018, 05:33:26 PM
Quote from: downtown on March 26, 2018, 05:17:32 PM
Lots of Russians kicked out today!! Everyone showing there support to the UK

I suppose it's too soon to rush to judgement when the British government have enough evidence that it convinces other countries to respond.

This thread really failed to read the room on this issue.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: trileacman on April 05, 2018, 06:41:08 PM
Can someone who believes the Russians are behind this tell me why they did it?

I can understand the attempted killing of the former spy to a) protect secrets or b) punish his defection but why did they do it in such an obvious and public manner? They could have stabbed him in the street, killed him at home, staged a robbery etc etc.

What did the Russians gain carrying out an assassination  in such a conspicuous manner? They would have known the manner in which they did it and the country they did it in would rise the current level of outcry.

I did believe they carried out this posioning but I'm starting to have doubts, the risk reward ratio is just far too slim especially when so many easily deniable methods of assassination were available to them. Anyone see that film killing them softly where 3 bandits commit the same robbery that happened 20 years previously knowing that the guy who committed the 1st robbery will be the fall guy for it. It's kinda like that.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Syferus on April 05, 2018, 06:49:52 PM
You're starting to have doubts after most western countries had a look behind the curtain and found the evidence it compelling enough to start a tit-for-tat spat with a world power. Right. It's all a conspiracy against poor Russia.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: trileacman on April 06, 2018, 12:27:34 AM
Quote from: Syferus on April 05, 2018, 06:49:52 PM
You're starting to have doubts after most western countries had a look behind the curtain and found the evidence it compelling enough to start a tit-for-tat spat with a world power. Right. It's all a conspiracy against poor Russia.

What evidence? Post a link to it there.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Franko on April 06, 2018, 12:35:35 AM
Quote from: trileacman on April 06, 2018, 12:27:34 AM
Quote from: Syferus on April 05, 2018, 06:49:52 PM
You're starting to have doubts after most western countries had a look behind the curtain and found the evidence it compelling enough to start a tit-for-tat spat with a world power. Right. It's all a conspiracy against poor Russia.

What evidence? Post a link to it there.

Same evidence as Boris had, I'd imagine.  ::)
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: johnnycool on April 06, 2018, 09:47:04 AM
Quote from: Franko on April 06, 2018, 12:35:35 AM
Quote from: trileacman on April 06, 2018, 12:27:34 AM
Quote from: Syferus on April 05, 2018, 06:49:52 PM
You're starting to have doubts after most western countries had a look behind the curtain and found the evidence it compelling enough to start a tit-for-tat spat with a world power. Right. It's all a conspiracy against poor Russia.

What evidence? Post a link to it there.

Same evidence as Boris had, I'd imagine.  ::)

Exactly,
   It's hard not to question the UK Government when the bold Boris goes on German TV and tells huge porkies;

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/did-boris-johnson-lie-about-porton-downs-evidence-against-russia (https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/did-boris-johnson-lie-about-porton-downs-evidence-against-russia)

Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: GJL on April 06, 2018, 11:25:12 AM
Quote from: Syferus on April 05, 2018, 06:49:52 PM
You're starting to have doubts after most western countries had a look behind the curtain and found the evidence it compelling enough to start a tit-for-tat spat with a world power. Right. It's all a conspiracy against poor Russia.

Has the lesson of the Americans and the Brits steaming into Iraq to destroy the WOMD been lost on you?
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on April 06, 2018, 11:37:34 AM
As kids we saw stuff growing up that never made the news. We saw soldiers injured or killed but because of the 'dirty War' they never made it to the MSM....they never made it to any media outlets. There was no internet so the 'truth' could never is be known. A few weeks after certain things which I know happened there would be bus crashes on training manoeuvres in Germany or one I vividly recall in Cananda. There were always casualties. The British government was feeding lies to the public then and that was in the early 80's. Obviously they were doing it before then. I question absolutely everything thing that they do as they have a record of telling lies to cover up or create environments to do certain things. I really question this. I have my own opinions on it.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: magpie seanie on April 06, 2018, 11:52:38 AM
I agree BCB. There are no facts or evidence here so I'd be quite slow to point the finger. There are potentially many reasons why several agents would do something like this. Most ordinary people genuinely know SFA about what's going on here....I'd say very few people have any real idea of the truth.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: maddog on April 06, 2018, 11:56:36 AM
Quote from: GJL on April 06, 2018, 11:25:12 AM
Quote from: Syferus on April 05, 2018, 06:49:52 PM
You're starting to have doubts after most western countries had a look behind the curtain and found the evidence it compelling enough to start a tit-for-tat spat with a world power. Right. It's all a conspiracy against poor Russia.

Has the lesson of the Americans and the Brits steaming into Iraq to destroy the WOMD been lost on you?

The death of Dr David Kelly left lots of questions in the playing out of those events.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Esmarelda on April 06, 2018, 12:10:48 PM
This is likely, probably all propaganda but here it is all the same https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnEQxnYFLnw
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: bennydorano on April 06, 2018, 12:16:14 PM
May took a big gamble with the early rush to be judge, jury & executioner and it looked to have been a great political move with plaudits all round and the West generally rowing in behind her. It might unravel yet but I don't think so.  I personally think her motivation stank, it was surely partly motivated to shore up her personal status, the Tory party's electoral position, Brexit fiasco deflection etc.. As to who actually did the poisoning, still a fair chance it was the Russians, but I certainly would not trust the UK Government.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: johnnycool on April 06, 2018, 12:23:59 PM
Quote from: maddog on April 06, 2018, 11:56:36 AM
Quote from: GJL on April 06, 2018, 11:25:12 AM
Quote from: Syferus on April 05, 2018, 06:49:52 PM
You're starting to have doubts after most western countries had a look behind the curtain and found the evidence it compelling enough to start a tit-for-tat spat with a world power. Right. It's all a conspiracy against poor Russia.

Has the lesson of the Americans and the Brits steaming into Iraq to destroy the WOMD been lost on you?

The death of Dr David Kelly left lots of questions in the playing out of those events.


Robin Cook's as well was a bit funny IMO, him being very outspoken on the WMD's and being Foreign Secretary.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: shawshank on April 06, 2018, 12:32:53 PM
It is genuinely staggering to think that anyone would believe a word that comes out of the English as well as the American governments. The greatest war mongers of all times, who have spun lies and deceit, all for their own personals interests and nothing to do with the greater good. Any poster on here who thinks differently would be naïve at best.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Denn Forever on April 06, 2018, 12:35:28 PM
Did I hear somewhere the the analysis of the substance was weapons grade but could not be tied to russia?  The only places where it is available is Syria, North Korea  and Russia.

Was the Russian that was poisoned an out spoken critic of Putin?
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: johnnycool on April 06, 2018, 12:40:04 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on April 06, 2018, 12:35:28 PM
Did I hear somewhere the the analysis of the substance was weapons grade but could not be tied to russia?  The only places where it is available is Syria, North Korea  and Russia.

Was the Russian that was poisoned an out spoken critic of Putin?

He may have been but he was a Spy caught by the Russians for providing the Brits info and then released back to the UK as part of a prisoner swap IIRC.

Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on April 06, 2018, 01:26:11 PM
Quote from: trileacman on April 05, 2018, 06:41:08 PM
Can someone who believes the Russians are behind this tell me why they did it?

I can understand the attempted killing of the former spy to a) protect secrets or b) punish his defection but why did they do it in such an obvious and public manner? They could have stabbed him in the street, killed him at home, staged a robbery etc etc.

What did the Russians gain carrying out an assassination  in such a conspicuous manner? They would have known the manner in which they did it and the country they did it in would rise the current level of outcry.

I did believe they carried out this posioning but I'm starting to have doubts, the risk reward ratio is just far too slim especially when so many easily deniable methods of assassination were available to them. Anyone see that film killing them softly where 3 bandits commit the same robbery that happened 20 years previously knowing that the guy who committed the 1st robbery will be the fall guy for it. It's kinda like that.
Why did they do what they did to Litvinenko?

He lasted three weeks and was able to give interviews in that time.

Did the Russians do that?

Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Esmarelda on April 14, 2018, 07:32:22 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-trace-of-western-made-nerve-agent-seen-in-uk-samples/2018/04/14/c76a8b30-3ff7-11e8-955b-7d2e19b79966_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.2a88d66432eb

Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Syferus on April 14, 2018, 07:36:38 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on April 14, 2018, 07:32:22 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russia-trace-of-western-made-nerve-agent-seen-in-uk-samples/2018/04/14/c76a8b30-3ff7-11e8-955b-7d2e19b79966_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.2a88d66432eb

The horse has already bolted. Russia has such incredible contempt for facts it would be funny if it wasn't serious.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on April 18, 2018, 09:11:48 PM
Oh dear. Russia's equivalent of Fox News is in trouble.

Quote
RT faces seven new investigations in aftermath of Salisbury poisoning
Ofcom is examining instances where Kremlin-backed news channel potentially breached UK broadcast laws on impartiality

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/apr/18/rt-ofcom-salisbury-poisoning-coverage

Here's what that well known warmonger John McDonnell thinks of RT:

Quote
Following the Salisbury poisoning, the shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, said it was no longer appropriate for Labour MPs to appear on the network, because "what we're seeing from Russia Today at times goes beyond objective journalism".
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Insane Bolt on July 05, 2018, 08:47:36 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/novichok-poisons-two-new-victims-salisbury-couple-in-comas-after-contact-with-nerve-agent-used-on-skripals/ar-AAzAHKl?li=BBoPRmx

More bullshit from the Brits?
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Itchy on July 05, 2018, 10:13:30 PM
Does there happen to be a chemical weapon plant near by to these two events? Or did Russians cone back again?
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: seafoid on July 05, 2018, 10:16:00 PM
8 Republican Senators from the Us were in russia for the 4th of July. Russia got  Trump elected and yet Russia is poisoning people on UK soil. It's all very strange.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: BennyCake on July 05, 2018, 10:30:00 PM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on July 05, 2018, 08:47:36 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/novichok-poisons-two-new-victims-salisbury-couple-in-comas-after-contact-with-nerve-agent-used-on-skripals/ar-AAzAHKl?li=BBoPRmx

More bullshit from the Brits?

Yes.

It's why I'm now routing for Russia for the World Cup.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Syferus on July 05, 2018, 10:42:40 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on July 05, 2018, 10:30:00 PM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on July 05, 2018, 08:47:36 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/novichok-poisons-two-new-victims-salisbury-couple-in-comas-after-contact-with-nerve-agent-used-on-skripals/ar-AAzAHKl?li=BBoPRmx

More bullshit from the Brits?

Yes.

It's why I'm now routing for Russia for the World Cup.

Are the two of you actually serious? Because this thread became embarrassing when it was obvious the Russians were behind the attack last time, nevermind when there's yet more evidence of it. You think the British set it up, then fûcking left the agent behind them, causing a second attack on their own people? Can you comprehend how nonsensical that is?

No shame. You were wrong, and can't bring yourselves to admit it.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: BennyCake on July 05, 2018, 11:13:30 PM
Quote from: Syferus on July 05, 2018, 10:42:40 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on July 05, 2018, 10:30:00 PM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on July 05, 2018, 08:47:36 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/novichok-poisons-two-new-victims-salisbury-couple-in-comas-after-contact-with-nerve-agent-used-on-skripals/ar-AAzAHKl?li=BBoPRmx

More bullshit from the Brits?

Yes.

It's why I'm now routing for Russia for the World Cup.

Are the two of you actually serious? Because this thread became embarrassing when it was obvious the Russians were behind the attack last time, nevermind when there's yet more evidence of it. You think the British set it up, then fûcking left the agent behind them, causing a second attack on their own people? Can you comprehend how nonsensical that is?

No shame. You were wrong, and can't bring yourselves to admit it.

Spineless Leo has got to you boy ;)
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on July 05, 2018, 11:28:19 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on July 05, 2018, 10:30:00 PM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on July 05, 2018, 08:47:36 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/novichok-poisons-two-new-victims-salisbury-couple-in-comas-after-contact-with-nerve-agent-used-on-skripals/ar-AAzAHKl?li=BBoPRmx

More bullshit from the Brits?

Yes.

It's why I'm now routing for Russia for the World Cup.
Incidents like this are a great way of getting the gullible lads to come out of the woodwork.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Insane Bolt on July 06, 2018, 05:12:44 AM
I'm a doubting Thomas sort of person....so I prefer evidence, not statements like 'highly likely' and 'probably '. People are like sheep and believe what is in the media...you know like WMD, and 9/11 was directed by a boyo in a cave in Tora Bora😂
What's next? Roscommon are All Ireland contenders 😂😂😂
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Insane Bolt on July 06, 2018, 06:16:25 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/sergei-skripal-escaped-death-after-sudden-shower-reduced-potency-of-deadly-novichok-nerve-agent/ar-AAzDMh3?li=BBoPRmx

The script writer should be sacked😂
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Insane Bolt on September 05, 2018, 03:51:39 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/breaking-theresa-may-reveals-salisbury-poisoning-suspects-were-russian-military-intelligence-agents/ar-BBMU4gm?li=BBoPWjQ

Taking back control my arse.....Russians need a visa to enter the UK, so how were these 'KGB' guys missed?😳
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on September 14, 2018, 08:48:21 PM
It's terrible the way people are saying these two Russian tourists carried out the Novichok poisoning.

Sure Salisbury Cathedral is world famous and it's every Russian's dream to visit it.

Sure anybody could fly from Moscow to London, immediately travel to Salisbury in the snow before immediately returning to London, then travelling to Salisbury again the following day, again staying for only a very short time, before returning to London and flying back to Russia.

And leave traces of Novichok in your room in London.

Nothing suspicious about that at all, no siree, and a perfectly plausible story.

This is all a propaganda campaign.

There was no Russian attack, or something.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Minder on September 14, 2018, 08:59:13 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 14, 2018, 08:48:21 PM
It's terrible the way people are saying these two Russian tourists carried out the Novichok poisoning.

Sure Salisbury Cathedral is world famous and it's every Russian's dream to visit it.

Sure anybody could fly from Moscow to London, immediately travel to Salisbury in the snow before immediately returning to London, then travelling to Salisbury again the following day, again staying for only a very short time, before returning to London and flying back to Russia.

And leave traces of Novichok in your room in London.

Nothing suspicious about that at all, no siree, and a perfectly plausible story.

This is all a propaganda campaign.

There was no Russian attack, or something.

It was MI5
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on September 14, 2018, 09:12:00 PM
Quote from: Minder on September 14, 2018, 08:59:13 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 14, 2018, 08:48:21 PM
It's terrible the way people are saying these two Russian tourists carried out the Novichok poisoning.

Sure Salisbury Cathedral is world famous and it's every Russian's dream to visit it.

Sure anybody could fly from Moscow to London, immediately travel to Salisbury in the snow before immediately returning to London, then travelling to Salisbury again the following day, again staying for only a very short time, before returning to London and flying back to Russia.

And leave traces of Novichok in your room in London.

Nothing suspicious about that at all, no siree, and a perfectly plausible story.

This is all a propaganda campaign.

There was no Russian attack, or something.

It was MI5
Yeah, defo. And it was also MI5 who were picked up by the Dutch while on their way to break into the Swiss lab testing the Novichok.

And it was definitely MI5 who killed Litvinenko and all the other Russians who were bumped off in England.

All MI5.

Nothing to do with Russia.

Nothing.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Insane Bolt on September 14, 2018, 09:18:33 PM
https://www.rt.com/op-ed/437729-skripal-poisoning-suspects-russia/

George has the inside line😎
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on September 14, 2018, 10:10:40 PM
The last time I heard an explanation as preposterous as the Russians' explanation for the Salisbury posioning was when Father Ted tried to explain why he stole a whistle.

But that was an actual comedy show, where the jokes are intentional.

To be fair, the Russians' comedy show here is too, but in a different and much more sinister sort of way.

By spinning such an obviously preposterous, slapstick yarn, they are proving yet again that their whole foreign policy is based on denying the very notion of objective truth, while simultaneously laughing between their teeth. And asking what anybody else is going to do about it. So far, the answer is very little.

It's like when the cartoon Fidel Castro got handed a trilion dollar bill by Homer Simpson and immediately denied all knowledge of it.

Amazingly enough, there seems to be a hell of a lot of simpletons out there that actually fall for this stuff.





Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: trailer on September 14, 2018, 10:16:21 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 14, 2018, 10:10:40 PM
The last time I heard an explanation as preposterous as the Russians' explanation for the Salisbury posioning was when Father Ted tried to explain why he stole a whistle.

But that was an actual comedy show, where the jokes are intentional.

To be fair, the Russians' comedy show here is too, but in a different and much more sinister sort of way.

By spinning such an obviously preposterous, slapstick yarn, they are proving yet again that their whole foreign policy is based on denying the very notion of objective truth, while simultaneously laughing between their teeth. And asking what anybody else is going to do about it. So far, the answer is very little.

It's like when the cartoon Fidel Castro got handed a trilion dollar bill by Homer Simpson and immediately denied all knowledge of it.

Amazingly enough, there seems to be a hell of a lot of simpletons out there that actually fall for this stuff.

Russia basically sticking two fingers up at the UK by parading these guys on TV and them reciting this bullshit story. Russia doesn't give one f**k.
Interestingly I see they are engaging in a huge war games exercise with the Chinese. Cold War 2.0 on the horizon?
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Insane Bolt on September 15, 2018, 08:14:01 AM
The two meerkats were comical😂 Still doesn't answer how the Skripals came in contact with the novichok, as Sergi left his home at 9.15 on the Sunday and didn't return, and the meerkats were only seen in the house's vicinity after 11😂 Then we have the government refusing a visa to the Skripal's relative, and the miracle of the three people affected recovering, despite it being deadly😂
I hope Salisbury capitalises on this miracle and turns it into a site that could rival Knock or Lourdes😂
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Hardy on September 15, 2018, 12:55:24 PM
Quote from: trailer on September 14, 2018, 10:16:21 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 14, 2018, 10:10:40 PM
The last time I heard an explanation as preposterous as the Russians' explanation for the Salisbury posioning was when Father Ted tried to explain why he stole a whistle.

But that was an actual comedy show, where the jokes are intentional.

To be fair, the Russians' comedy show here is too, but in a different and much more sinister sort of way.

By spinning such an obviously preposterous, slapstick yarn, they are proving yet again that their whole foreign policy is based on denying the very notion of objective truth, while simultaneously laughing between their teeth. And asking what anybody else is going to do about it. So far, the answer is very little.

It's like when the cartoon Fidel Castro got handed a trilion dollar bill by Homer Simpson and immediately denied all knowledge of it.

Amazingly enough, there seems to be a hell of a lot of simpletons out there that actually fall for this stuff.

Russia basically sticking two fingers up at the UK by parading these guys on TV and them reciting this bullshit story. Russia doesn't give one f**k.
Interestingly I see they are engaging in a huge war games exercise with the Chinese. Cold War 2.0 on the horizon?

At this stage I'd settle for CW2.0 over WW3.0
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Esmarelda on September 16, 2018, 10:26:30 PM
This is very funny. I can't decide which bit is best but I'm going with "Travel documents used by Petrov are marked as 'top secret'"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/russia/article-6172497/Novichok-suspects-drug-fuelled-night-cannabis-prostitutes-75-night-London-hotel.html
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: omaghjoe on September 17, 2018, 06:48:18 AM
That's hilarious. Russia sends their top guys to do the hits in britian obliviously  ;D ;D

Prob bullshit but funny none the less.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on September 19, 2018, 01:29:21 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on September 16, 2018, 10:26:30 PM
This is very funny. I can't decide which bit is best but I'm going with "Travel documents used by Petrov are marked as 'top secret'"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/russia/article-6172497/Novichok-suspects-drug-fuelled-night-cannabis-prostitutes-75-night-London-hotel.html

Weed and Hookers?

Surely top class spies would pick up women (with a connection to their adversary) at a high class casino?  They wouldn't be paying to get their end away.  Also their quartermaster would give the a briefcase of money to be buying coke, good coke too not the chopped to shit variety the rest of us put up with.

/Jim.

Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Insane Bolt on September 19, 2018, 01:56:54 PM
I think what happened was that when the Skripals took ill in the restaurant the manager said 'it's no joke'.....and .....well you know the rest😜
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on August 21, 2020, 11:02:13 AM
I see Putin poisoned Alexei Navalny, the only real opposition figure of note in Russia

Now he's stopping the transporting of Navalny for potential life saving treatment in Germany

Afraid the Germans will find a substance only available to the Russian regime, no doubt

If by some miracle Biden gets into the White House, he needs to bleed the fascist despot Putin and the Russian regime dry
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on September 02, 2020, 04:16:00 PM
Probably a couple of "tourists" visiting a cathedral in Siberia whodunnit, I suppose

Definitely not Putin, definitely not, it would be mad to think that

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54002880

QuoteRussian opposition politician Alexei Navalny was poisoned with a Novichok nerve agent, Germany's government says.

It said toxicology tests at a military laboratory showed "unequivocal proof" of an agent from the Novichok group.

Mr Navalny was airlifted to Berlin for treatment after falling ill during a flight in Russia's Siberia region last month. He has been in a coma since.

His team says he was poisoned on President Vladimir Putin's orders. The Kremlin has dismissed the allegation.

The German government said it condemned the attack in the strongest terms and called for Russia to urgently provide an explanation.

"It is a disturbing development that Alexei Navalny was the victim of a chemical nerve agent in Russia," it said.
Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: sid waddell on December 30, 2020, 01:06:46 AM
Russia lied about its Covid figures - well knock me down with a feather, this is a big shock, I mean who would have believed the Russian government would have lied

Instead of 55k dead, it's 186k

I wouldn't visit a fourth floor balcony any time soon if I was Deputy PM Golikova

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/28/russia-admits-to-world-third-worst-covid-19-death-toll-underreported

Title: Re: UK v Russia
Post by: Mikhail Prokhorov on December 30, 2020, 01:36:27 AM
Be careful Sid, we are watching  ;)