UVF Give up but keep the Guns

[Uladh]

"Whatever about the rights and wrongs of the IRA's campaign, they were struggling for an ideal.

These clowns [the UVF] have had no moral standing, even in the eyes of their own people, for a very long time abd are thugs and gangsters pure and simple"

I inferred two things from that:
1. You feel that the fact that the IRA were "struggling for an ideal", this in some way mitigated the "wrongs" of their campaign, leading to

No brains.... They feel that they were struggling for an ideal.

[his holiness nb]

"it is an unfortunate characteristic of extremists in each community to consider their own particular cause to be in some way morally superior to that of the other"

Its also an unfortunate characteristic of extremists from one side who know they dont have the moral high ground to suggest neither side have in a vain attempt to equalise the sides "causes"

Thats also a well know unionist trick.

I'm not an extremist by any means as my vote in the election will testify, but when it comes to moral highground between an imperialist empire versus the people struggling for liberation from imperialism, well its a no brainer.

And no I dont approve of many of the actions taken by both sides, so dont start that crap, this is about political ideals.

Even the unionists who "dont want to be liberated" realise they are their due to plantation of their earlier generations and cant take the high ground here.

[Evil Genius]

"Whatever about the rights and wrongs of the IRA's campaign, they were struggling for an ideal.

These clowns [the UVF] have had no moral standing, even in the eyes of their own people, for a very long time abd are thugs and gangsters pure and simple"

I inferred two things from that:
1. You feel that the fact that the IRA were "struggling for an ideal", this in some way mitigated the "wrongs" of their campaign, leading to

No brains.... They feel that they were struggling for an ideal.

What you've posted just now is not what you posted originally.

Regarding your reworked version, it is true that IRA members felt they were acting in pursuit of an ideal.

In that respect, the UVF were no different; they felt their ideal was the protection of NI from the IRA. Indeed, the UVF's most prominent member, the late David Ervine, said that he joined them immediately after witnessing from a fourth floor Belfast window the direct effects of the IRA detonating 22 bombs around the city, with inadequate or no warning during three hours, resulting in the deaths of 9 innocent men, women and children, and the serious wounding of 130 others. It was known  Bloody Friday, though it has never achieved the same notoriety as a certain other "Bloody" day in our Calendar.
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/bfriday/events.htm

Of course, as well as attempting to assassinate IRA members, many of them resorted to murdering innocent Catholics at random, on the basis that this would erode Catholic support for the IRA, if it was demonstrated that the IRA were incapable of protecting Catholic areas.

In that respect, I can see no difference in e.g. the IRA in South Armagh (under the guise of the Republican Action Force) murdering innocent Protestants in Kingsmills, in an effort to stop the activities of the UVF/UDA in the same area, or the machine-gunning of fleeing survivors from the Bayardo Bar bombing, by Brendan "Bik" McFarlane, successor to Bobby Sands as "OC" of the Provos in Long Kesh.

A plague on both their houses.

[Evil Genius]

Even the unionists who "dont want to be liberated" realise they are their due to plantation of their earlier generations and cant take the high ground here.

I will answer for my own words and actions; I do not consider that anyone should ever be condemned or praised for actions committed by people long dead; such fatuousness serves only to stoke the argument along the lines of:

"You Started it" "No, you started it"

Worse than pointless...

[his holiness nb]

Even the unionists who "dont want to be liberated" realise they are their due to plantation of their earlier generations and cant take the high ground here.

I will answer for my own words and actions; I do not consider that anyone should ever be condemned or praised for actions committed by people long dead; such fatuousness serves only to stoke the argument along the lines of:

"You Started it" "No, you started it"

Worse than pointless...

To re-quote myself

"Its also an unfortunate characteristic of extremists from one side who know they dont have the moral high ground to suggest neither side have in a vain attempt to equalise the sides "causes""

I never suggested that northern unionists be condemned for the actions of people long dead.
Unless you mean condemned to a United Ireland, then I do 

[his holiness nb]

Incidentally re the whole "you started it, no you started it" thing.
I have yet to hear anyone accuse the Irish of "starting" the whole Northern situation, its very black and white.
Theres a lot of greys in between, but not about the beginning.

[MW]

Incidentally re the whole "you started it, no you started it" thing.
I have yet to hear anyone accuse the Irish of "starting" the whole Northern situation, its very black and white.
Theres a lot of greys in between, but not about the beginning.

As an aside, when do you think moving from Scotland (or England) to Ulster/Ireland and settling there (taking land by force at times), or indeed vice versa, became a 'no-no'?

[MW]

I'm not an extremist by any means as my vote in the election will testify, but when it comes to moral highground between an imperialist empire versus the people struggling for liberation from imperialism, well its a no brainer.

For me it's a no-brainer choosing between people wanting to exercise their peaceful democratic right to remain part of their homeland, and a terrorist murder gang blowing people up up shops and bars, and murdering people because of their nationality, political opinion, religion and job in a (failed) attempt to overthrow the principle of consent...

That's if you want to play your game

[MW]

Anyways, back to the point.

Cosmetic exercises don't cut it afaik. Sectarian terrorist thugs like that lot should hand over their guns and disappear off the 'stage', permanently.

[his holiness nb]

I'm not an extremist by any means as my vote in the election will testify, but when it comes to moral highground between an imperialist empire versus the people struggling for liberation from imperialism, well its a no brainer.

For me it's a no-brainer choosing between people wanting to exercise their peaceful democratic right to remain part of their homeland, and a terrorist murder gang blowing people up up shops and bars, and murdering people because of their nationality, political opinion, religion and job in a (failed) attempt to overthrow the principle of consent...

That's if you want to play your game

I couldnt even dignify that with a response, I am obviously dealing with an utter bigot

[Main Street]

Well, I'm scratching my head right now to come up with any interpretation other than that Ulaidh considers that the Provos were in some way mitigated or absolved in their actions since they were acting for a cause.

The scratching isn't exactly taxing the limits of rational thought to come with an alternative to that stereotypical emission. 'Mitigated or absolved' are words from your dictionary.
It's the absolute certainty of your 'flight of fancy' interpretation, it betrays the one dimensional viewpoint that make up your ability to utter such crap.   

Gandhi was opposed to Imperialism and was successful in defeating it, despite* his eschewing the use of violence. I admire Gandhi.

Ah yes the movie, don't confuse Gandhi's ideas with the ending of the Raj. At the time, Atlee acknowledged that the main reason for the fall of the Raj were the ideals of the militant Subhash Chandra Bose and the very violent Indian National Army.
Imo the closest equivalent of a Gandhi in the Irish national movement would have been John Redmond.

[SammyG]

I couldnt even dignify that with a response, I am obviously dealing with an utter bigot

Is bigot your word of the day? How can being opposed to sectarian murder, on all sides, make you a bigot?

[Uladh]

My final line was the only thing new in my last post. anything else was quoted directly from your post, so any inaccuracies are down to you brains.

[lynchbhoy]

For me it's a no-brainer choosing between people wanting to exercise their peaceful democratic right to remain part of their homeland, and a terrorist murder gang blowing people up up shops and bars, and murdering people because of their nationality, political opinion, religion and job in a (failed) attempt to overthrow the principle of consent...

That's if you want to play your game

that sounds EXACTLY like what nationalists would have been saying in the late 1960's
(and then becoming republicans...)

so yer making a case for the IRA to have retailated then it seems...

[lynchbhoy]

"Whatever about the rights and wrongs of the IRA's campaign, they were struggling for an ideal.

These clowns [the UVF] have had no moral standing, even in the eyes of their own people, for a very long time abd are thugs and gangsters pure and simple"

I inferred two things from that:
1. You feel that the fact that the IRA were "struggling for an ideal", this in some way mitigated the "wrongs" of their campaign, leading to

No brains.... They feel that they were struggling for an ideal.

What you've posted just now is not what you posted originally.

Regarding your reworked version, it is true that IRA members felt they were acting in pursuit of an ideal.

In that respect, the UVF were no different; they felt their ideal was the protection of NI from the IRA. Indeed, the UVF's most prominent member, the late David Ervine, said that he joined them immediately after witnessing from a fourth floor Belfast window the direct effects of the IRA detonating 22 bombs around the city, with inadequate or no warning during three hours, resulting in the deaths of 9 innocent men, women and children, and the serious wounding of 130 others. It was known  Bloody Friday, though it has never achieved the same notoriety as a certain other "Bloody" day in our Calendar.
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/bfriday/events.htm

Of course, as well as attempting to assassinate IRA members, many of them resorted to murdering innocent Catholics at random, on the basis that this would erode Catholic support for the IRA, if it was demonstrated that the IRA were incapable of protecting Catholic areas.

In that respect, I can see no difference in e.g. the IRA in South Armagh (under the guise of the Republican Action Force) murdering innocent Protestants in Kingsmills, in an effort to stop the activities of the UVF/UDA in the same area, or the machine-gunning of fleeing survivors from the Bayardo Bar bombing, by Brendan "Bik" McFarlane, successor to Bobby Sands as "OC" of the Provos in Long Kesh.

A plague on both their houses.

quite easy to condemn it all now  and even easier when it wasnt your own community that were under attack and subect to an apartheid-like regieme from all sides backed up by the establishment