Intercounty apathy a worrying trend

[magpie seanie]

Sorry, I thought I had put them in.

[Fuzzman]

Sometimes the answer is staring us in the face.
We already have 4 divisions which in fairness usually group teams of a similar level together, yes?
How many times do we see quarterfinals being quite one sided? We rarely see the top 8 teams in the country play each other in championship competitive matches and for me that's what I would like to see each year and then the best 4.

So we play the league games as usual, then come June we play the provincial championships and then come August we play the All Ireland series where we draw the quarterfinals from Div 1 only.
That way we will see the top 8 teams in the country play off against each other fairly, with no bias to Kerry or Dublin getting to that quarterfinal stage easier than anyone else.

Secondly, the provincial titles remain and could be a realistic chance for some of the teams from outside Div 1 to win a significant title.
It would in turn give the leagues a lot more meaning and motivate teams to try to get to Div 1 so they can win Sam.
24 counties would know in advance they won't be in the AI series so they can plan their championships much better.

[Lar Naparka]

Please don't presume to read my mind thanks very much. Maybe some of us are thinking what's best for Gaelic football.Just make your points for/against things without impugning the motives of posters here. How dare you!!
By the time Senior/Inter/Junior comes around we will be lucky (Demographics etc) to make the Junior grade.
In 25 years time there will be 1.5m people in Dublin and probably 800k in Kildare/Meath/Wicklow.
Are present Administrative structures and Competition structures suitable for this forthcoming lopsided population?

Okay, I'll bite. For footballing reasons, why is 12/12/8 superior to 8/12/12, when ostensibly, the latter would appear to create more competitive competitions for all? Realistically, outside of KY/TYR/MO/DL and at a real, real push, Cork & Galway, there is no-one else that would be shorter than 10/1 to beat Dublin in a one off game. Certainly it'd probably be a more lopsided fixture than Leitrim/Waterford/Antrim against Armagh or Clare, who'd be the type of teams that would be inter under 12/12/8 but junior under 8/8/12.

It isn't so long ago that Armagh beat Leitrim by a cricket score in Pairc Sean.

I remember - I was covering the game, and I got penalty points on the way into the match. The reason I know that it was the summer of 2013 is that those points only finally went off my license a few months ago!

Two things here:

(1) Armagh in 2013 were well ahead of Armagh 2016/2017.
(2) There could be cricket scores at any level, but Dublin beating teams ranked 9-12 by large margins is far more common that teams ranked around 20 giving out hidings to the Leitrims and Waterfords of this world.

It remains to be seen,  of course,  but I think Armagh in 2017 might well be comparable to 2013, as they are more a middle third team than  a lower third team. As such they might hammer a lower team and then get beaten by the likes of Galway.

The problem is that Dublin are the elephant in the room here,  as with a population of a province there will only ever be a handful of teams to stay close to them.

+1
That is the be-all and end-all of the problem with apathy and the falling off of intercounty players and no amount of fiddling with Tommy Murphy type competitions is going to change that.
Fair dues to Jim Gavin and the Dublin county board as they are only making best use of their resources. I imagine Rochford, or Harte of Fitzmaurice would be doing the same thing if circumstances allowed it.
Dublin has a population that is almost one third that of the entire Republic so all the resources needed to win an All Ireland are to be found there to a far greater extent than anywhere else.
Other counties, Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone etc. will try to match them as best they can but that involves spending an incredible amount of money, buying in medical and psychological expertise and so on as well as nutritionists and god knows what else. The concept of amateurism died a slow and painful death years ago.
Other counties, the middle-tier- as described here have ramped up their preparation in order to stay in touch with those above them and so on down the line to the very weakest.
A lot of counties are spending money that they cannot afford to shell out on preparing players who know they are going to go nowhere; one first round championship game, one backdoor one and then no competition until the championships begin the following year. Players outside the top four or five know there will be little to gain for the time and trouble they put in so if they decide to go and get a life, who can blame them?

[OgraAnDun]

If it had to go to Senior/Int/Junior, I would have it split 10/12/10. That way everyone in Division 1, plus the two promoted Division 2 sides would be in the senior championship. The relegated sides from Division 3 would fight it out with the Division 4 sides for the Junior title, with the promoted sides from D4 motivated by the fact that a half decent league campaign the following year has them in Intermediate. That leaves the majority of Division 2 and 3 (who are fairly evenly matched) playing for the Intermediate title.

[Lone Shark]

Lone Shark, while my original point on the split still stands, what an 8, 12, 12 split does is push better teams down to "Junior" making the competition irrelevant for the likes of London, Carlow, Wicklow etc.

Again, for whom are we trying to change the structure?

This is kind of my key point - I'm not entirely sure who wants a change of any type, other than pundits from leading counties who'd like to spend more time watching Kerry vs Dublin and a lot less time watching Derry vs Antrim, or armchair supporters who want the same.

What about 98? Galway hadn't won Connacht since 95. A Connacht team hadn't won since 66. Were Galway also top 6?

It was a very lopsided draw that year which might have skewed the betting a little, however I'll agree that there is no way that Galway would have been in the top six counties by ranking at the start of the year. I'm not sure that one exception in 50 odd years disproves my point though.

Sometimes the answer is staring us in the face.
We already have 4 divisions which in fairness usually group teams of a similar level together, yes?
How many times do we see quarterfinals being quite one sided? We rarely see the top 8 teams in the country play each other in championship competitive matches and for me that's what I would like to see each year and then the best 4.

So we play the league games as usual, then come June we play the provincial championships and then come August we play the All Ireland series where we draw the quarterfinals from Div 1 only.
That way we will see the top 8 teams in the country play off against each other fairly, with no bias to Kerry or Dublin getting to that quarterfinal stage easier than anyone else.

Secondly, the provincial titles remain and could be a realistic chance for some of the teams from outside Div 1 to win a significant title.
It would in turn give the leagues a lot more meaning and motivate teams to try to get to Div 1 so they can win Sam.
24 counties would know in advance they won't be in the AI series so they can plan their championships much better.

Once more with feeling - if the provincial championships are not an integral part of the All Ireland series and the first choice route to the All Ireland quarter finals for the big teams, they won't "remain" in any meaningful sense of the word - they will "remain" in the same way that the Munster Senior Cup will "remain" as a target for Garryowen and Young Munster in club rugby. The competition will exist, but it will be irrevocably cheapened, and by definition, if it means nothing to Mayo/Dublin/Kerry, it can't mean as much to Leitrim/Longford/Limerick.

[Owenmoresider]

Sometimes the answer is staring us in the face.
We already have 4 divisions which in fairness usually group teams of a similar level together, yes?
How many times do we see quarterfinals being quite one sided? We rarely see the top 8 teams in the country play each other in championship competitive matches and for me that's what I would like to see each year and then the best 4.

So we play the league games as usual, then come June we play the provincial championships and then come August we play the All Ireland series where we draw the quarterfinals from Div 1 only.
That way we will see the top 8 teams in the country play off against each other fairly, with no bias to Kerry or Dublin getting to that quarterfinal stage easier than anyone else.

Secondly, the provincial titles remain and could be a realistic chance for some of the teams from outside Div 1 to win a significant title.
It would in turn give the leagues a lot more meaning and motivate teams to try to get to Div 1 so they can win Sam.
24 counties would know in advance they won't be in the AI series so they can plan their championships much better.

There's merit in the idea of linking the league like that but I'd give the provincial winners (and possibly finalists) a place in the latter stages, and not restrict entry merely to the D1 teams. Something like:

The provincial winners to QF's - could include finalists to make it a round of 16 if need be;
8 teams drawn from the league placings - something like it was in the old NFL playoffs structure i.e. top 4 D1, top 2 D2, and winners of D3 & D4.

There probably would be some duplication but those teams could get byes into the last 8 in that situation anyway. In 2016 that would have meant Dublin, Kerry, Galway and Tyrone as provincial winners, and Roscommon, Donegal, Cavan, Clare and Louth through via the NFL (Dublin/Kerry/Tyrone already in). Tipperary and Westmeath would have also gone through if finalists were factored in.

[OgraAnDun]

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=25868.0

This is still the best structure I am yet to see from anyone.

[magpie seanie]

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=25868.0

This is still the best structure I am yet to see from anyone.

I hadn't read that but I think it's excellent. Tough on Leinster counties (and one in Ulster) for example who might have to win a game to get to a provincial QF (i.e. win a game and get no points for it while Connacht teams would presumably get 2 points for beating New York or London. That's the only issue I'd see with it and as you've mentioned if they've had a good enough league it could be moot. Relying on a good provincial c'ship would be dangerous territory.

[Esmarelda]

I liked Rossfan's idea of a Junior and Intermediate Championship being played early in the summer with the winners gaining entry to that year's All-Ireland series. It's like a Champions' League qualifier and meant that everyone got a shot at Sam in that year.

However, it was a very tight schedule and with the new proposals to tighten the inter-county schedule on the agenda it's not feasible.

[Rossfan]

On the question of apathy and populations -
It is extremely unlikely that the following will ever win the All Ireland SFC due to small population-
Fermanagh,Cavan, Monaghan.
Roscommon,  Sligo ,Leitrim.
Longford, Westmeath, Offaly, Laois, Carlow.
For hurling reasons we can add Wexford, Kilkenny,  Waterford, Tipperary, Limerick Clare.
That's 17 of the 32 Counties who can at best expect to be "competitive" and reach the odd Quarter Final.
That's a sort of natural list of Junior and Intermediate participants.
Derry and Armagh have small enough GAA populations but are in the midst of better economic opportunies than are available to Ros, Longford etc. and of course Derry could try and convert a lot of the city crowd to proper football.

[AZOffaly]

On the question of apathy and populations -
It is extremely unlikely that the following will ever win the All Ireland SFC due to small population-
Fermanagh,Cavan, Monaghan.
Roscommon,  Sligo ,Leitrim.
Longford, Westmeath, Offaly, Laois, Carlow.
For hurling reasons we can add Wexford, Kilkenny,  Waterford, Tipperary, Limerick Clare.
That's 17 of the 32 Counties who can at best expect to be "competitive" and reach the odd Quarter Final.
That's a sort of natural list of Junior and Intermediate participants.
Derry and Armagh have small enough GAA populations but are in the midst of better economic opportunies than are available to Ros, Longford etc. and of course Derry could try and convert a lot of the city crowd to proper football.

Quite a few of those counties mentioned have won Senior All Irelands in the past. What is the main reason they can't do so in the future? Population wise it's probably not much different in 2017 than in 1977.

[Rossfan]

Ros 1944
Cavan 1952
Wexford 1918
Tipp 1920?
Limerick 1896?
Biffos 1982.
Roscommon probably had a bigger population than the likes of Meath/Kildare back in '44.

[AZOffaly]

Yeah, I was mostly thinking of Offaly

In fairness Cavan and Monaghan would still feel that's a target for them. Roscommon are one of the favourites for the All Ireland every year.

[Cunny Funt]

Are Offaly in the 80s the last county with a population of less than 80,000 to reach All Ireland senior final?

[Rossfan]

. Roscommon are one of the favourites for the All Ireland every year.

In Syfland maybe
2 Connacht titles in 25 years would suggest otherwise. .....