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GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: Lar Naparka on January 04, 2017, 03:24:24 PM

Title: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 04, 2017, 03:24:24 PM

Last week Martin Brehony had another go at the Mayo footballers in the Indo. While his rantings are met with a predictable tsunami of indifference within the county, there was something else on the same page that should concern there GAA as an organisation.

In this short piece, headed "Intercounty apathy a worrying trend," the Galway captain Gary Sice was interviewed, where he said that the Galway manager, Kevin Walsh, had invited over 50 players to trial for the county squad and they had refused to turn up.
(The total according to the manager was 56.)
By any standard that showed a shockingly low level of ambition among Galway's senior footballers.
But other counties have been faced with the same problem and it seems the numbers of disaffected players is growing.
Longford's manager said before the beginning of the championships last year that over 20 players in his county had refused to go for a trial, while the Tipp boss had more or less the same sad tale to relate.
I've heard of defections in Carlow also. I don't know the facts or figures there but I'm sure there are other counties when wearing the county colours is no longer considered worth the effort by many players.
What are the reasons for this lack of enthusiasm?
According to Brehony: "However, it's understandable since players are required to devote so much time and energy to an intercounty programme that guarantees them only two games between early April and the end of the season.
How daft is that?"
Anyone care to comment?
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Gael85 on January 04, 2017, 03:38:16 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 04, 2017, 03:24:24 PM

Last week Martin Brehony had another go at the Mayo footballers in the Indo. While his rantings are met with a predictable tsunami of indifference within the county, there was something else on the same page that should concern there GAA as an organisation.

In this short piece, headed "Intercounty apathy a worrying trend,” the Galway captain Gary Sice was interviewed, where he said that the Galway manager, Kevin Walsh, had invited over 50 players to trial for the county squad and they had refused to turn up.
(The total according to the manager was 56.)
By any standard that showed a shockingly low level of ambition among Galway's senior footballers.
But other counties have been faced with the same problem and it seems the numbers of disaffected players is growing.
Longford's manager said before the beginning of the championships last year that over 20 players in his county had refused to go for a trial, while the Tipp boss had more or less the same sad tale to relate.
I've heard of defections in Carlow also. I don't know the facts or figures there but I'm sure there are other counties when wearing the county colours is no longer considered worth the effort by many players.
What are the reasons for this lack of enthusiasm?
According to Brehony: "However, it's understandable since players are required to devote so much time and energy to an intercounty programme that guarantees them only two games between early April and the end of the season.
How daft is that?"
Anyone care to comment?

Most Division 3/4 teams never had their best players representing their county for last 20 years.  Its now creeping into 2 teams and even a couple Division 1 teams. Players in counties  like Carlow, Wicklow and Antrim would rather play with club than county. Didn't one Carlow player join panel years ago and left a few weeks. His reason for joining intercounty  setup was so he would be fit for club  ;D
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Shamrock Shore on January 04, 2017, 03:42:56 PM
QuoteLongford's manager said before the beginning of the championships last year that over 20 players in his county had refused to go for a trial

That's cos he basically asked everyone with a pulse between 18 and 35 to come for a trial.

So it was nonsense for him to come out with this at the time.

I don't think there are too many lost sheep in Longford playing only for club and not arsed about the county scene. Laureleye may have a different view....

Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: screenexile on January 04, 2017, 03:49:53 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 04, 2017, 03:24:24 PM

Last week Martin Brehony had another go at the Mayo footballers in the Indo. While his rantings are met with a predictable tsunami of indifference within the county, there was something else on the same page that should concern there GAA as an organisation.

In this short piece, headed "Intercounty apathy a worrying trend," the Galway captain Gary Sice was interviewed, where he said that the Galway manager, Kevin Walsh, had invited over 50 players to trial for the county squad and they had refused to turn up.
(The total according to the manager was 56.)
By any standard that showed a shockingly low level of ambition among Galway's senior footballers.
But other counties have been faced with the same problem and it seems the numbers of disaffected players is growing.
Longford's manager said before the beginning of the championships last year that over 20 players in his county had refused to go for a trial, while the Tipp boss had more or less the same sad tale to relate.
I've heard of defections in Carlow also. I don't know the facts or figures there but I'm sure there are other counties when wearing the county colours is no longer considered worth the effort by many players.
What are the reasons for this lack of enthusiasm?
According to Brehony: "However, it's understandable since players are required to devote so much time and energy to an intercounty programme that guarantees them only two games between early April and the end of the season.
How daft is that?"
Anyone care to comment?

1. The dedication required is huge.

2. The emphasis on Club now and particularly the training schedule at Senior level is now so huge that many feel playing for the club is enough

3. In Derry's case anyway throughout the summer lads who are on the fringes (the kind of guys we're talking about here) are often sat on the subs bench for any Inter County games whilst not being allowed to field for their clubs in the intervening times!

4. If you're from a county outside the top 7/8 what is the point? Really what is the point in Longford/Offaly/Derry/Antrim/Sligo lads seriously dedicating themselves to a cause for 6-9 months at a time only to get beat out the gate by one of the bigger teams. Then for good measure you have a look on RTE or on here and Joe Brolly or your supporters are calling you a useless ****.

5. Younger kids nowadays don't dig in. It's a fact. The first sign of failure or they're not making the panel they won't hang about to knuckle down and force their way on or they won't come back next year!
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: joemamas on January 04, 2017, 04:12:15 PM
Quote from: screenexile on January 04, 2017, 03:49:53 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 04, 2017, 03:24:24 PM

Last week Martin Brehony had another go at the Mayo footballers in the Indo. While his rantings are met with a predictable tsunami of indifference within the county, there was something else on the same page that should concern there GAA as an organisation.

In this short piece, headed "Intercounty apathy a worrying trend," the Galway captain Gary Sice was interviewed, where he said that the Galway manager, Kevin Walsh, had invited over 50 players to trial for the county squad and they had refused to turn up.
(The total according to the manager was 56.)
By any standard that showed a shockingly low level of ambition among Galway's senior footballers.
But other counties have been faced with the same problem and it seems the numbers of disaffected players is growing.
Longford's manager said before the beginning of the championships last year that over 20 players in his county had refused to go for a trial, while the Tipp boss had more or less the same sad tale to relate.
I've heard of defections in Carlow also. I don't know the facts or figures there but I'm sure there are other counties when wearing the county colours is no longer considered worth the effort by many players.
What are the reasons for this lack of enthusiasm?
According to Brehony: "However, it's understandable since players are required to devote so much time and energy to an intercounty programme that guarantees them only two games between early April and the end of the season.
How daft is that?"
Anyone care to comment?

1. The dedication required is huge.

2. The emphasis on Club now and particularly the training schedule at Senior level is now so huge that many feel playing for the club is enough

3. In Derry's case anyway throughout the summer lads who are on the fringes (the kind of guys we're talking about here) are often sat on the subs bench for any Inter County games whilst not being allowed to field for their clubs in the intervening times!

4. If you're from a county outside the top 7/8 what is the point? Really what is the point in Longford/Offaly/Derry/Antrim/Sligo lads seriously dedicating themselves to a cause for 6-9 months at a time only to get beat out the gate by one of the bigger teams. Then for good measure you have a look on RTE or on here and Joe Brolly or your supporters are calling you a useless ****.

5. Younger kids nowadays don't dig in. It's a fact. The first sign of failure or they're not making the panel they won't hang about to knuckle down and force their way on or they won't come back next year!

"If you're from a county outside the top 7/8 what is the point? Really what is the point in Longford/Offaly/Derry/Antrim/Sligo lads seriously dedicating themselves to a cause for 6-9 months at a time only to get beat out the gate by one of the bigger teams. Then for good measure you have a look on RTE or on here and Joe Brolly or your supporters are calling you a useless ****."

That IMO is the biggest issue, gap in increasing between the 7/8 and everybody else. Instead of GAA giving E6MM to GPA, they should provide 10 or more full time coaches to the weaker counties for a year. Assess after a year, and employ a use them or lose them strategy.
I am afraid that if they don't,it is only going to get worse , a lot worse.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Syferus on January 04, 2017, 04:54:23 PM
Sure we have a few lads who retired and a few more who are undecided about committing for 2017 still and we're in D1. Even the SuperDubs aren't immune.

Demands on IC players have become disgusting. There's no other word for it.

Forget coaching for smaller counties for a second - simply limiting the demands teams can place on players is sorely needed if this game is to remain amateur in anything but name.

Also what's burst Sice into life all of a sudden? The man's doing more interviews than Enda Kenny these days..
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: seafoid on January 04, 2017, 05:09:31 PM
Quote from: joemamas on January 04, 2017, 04:12:15 PM
Quote from: screenexile on January 04, 2017, 03:49:53 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 04, 2017, 03:24:24 PM

Last week Martin Brehony had another go at the Mayo footballers in the Indo. While his rantings are met with a predictable tsunami of indifference within the county, there was something else on the same page that should concern there GAA as an organisation.

In this short piece, headed "Intercounty apathy a worrying trend," the Galway captain Gary Sice was interviewed, where he said that the Galway manager, Kevin Walsh, had invited over 50 players to trial for the county squad and they had refused to turn up.
(The total according to the manager was 56.)
By any standard that showed a shockingly low level of ambition among Galway's senior footballers.
But other counties have been faced with the same problem and it seems the numbers of disaffected players is growing.
Longford's manager said before the beginning of the championships last year that over 20 players in his county had refused to go for a trial, while the Tipp boss had more or less the same sad tale to relate.
I've heard of defections in Carlow also. I don't know the facts or figures there but I'm sure there are other counties when wearing the county colours is no longer considered worth the effort by many players.
What are the reasons for this lack of enthusiasm?
According to Brehony: "However, it's understandable since players are required to devote so much time and energy to an intercounty programme that guarantees them only two games between early April and the end of the season.
How daft is that?"
Anyone care to comment?

1. The dedication required is huge.

2. The emphasis on Club now and particularly the training schedule at Senior level is now so huge that many feel playing for the club is enough

3. In Derry's case anyway throughout the summer lads who are on the fringes (the kind of guys we're talking about here) are often sat on the subs bench for any Inter County games whilst not being allowed to field for their clubs in the intervening times!

4. If you're from a county outside the top 7/8 what is the point? Really what is the point in Longford/Offaly/Derry/Antrim/Sligo lads seriously dedicating themselves to a cause for 6-9 months at a time only to get beat out the gate by one of the bigger teams. Then for good measure you have a look on RTE or on here and Joe Brolly or your supporters are calling you a useless ****.

5. Younger kids nowadays don't dig in. It's a fact. The first sign of failure or they're not making the panel they won't hang about to knuckle down and force their way on or they won't come back next year!

"If you're from a county outside the top 7/8 what is the point? Really what is the point in Longford/Offaly/Derry/Antrim/Sligo lads seriously dedicating themselves to a cause for 6-9 months at a time only to get beat out the gate by one of the bigger teams. Then for good measure you have a look on RTE or on here and Joe Brolly or your supporters are calling you a useless ****."

That IMO is the biggest issue, gap in increasing between the 7/8 and everybody else. Instead of GAA giving E6MM to GPA, they should provide 10 or more full time coaches to the weaker counties for a year. Assess after a year, and employ a use them or lose them strategy.
I am afraid that if they don't,it is only going to get worse , a lot worse.
Longford have made a lot of progress recently.....

Training demands are crazy for IC players. Lads retiring in their late 20s with chronic injuries.
The same few teams share the spoils. Mayo get to play in the final. The format is knackered.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: lenny on January 04, 2017, 07:17:52 PM
Quote from: screenexile on January 04, 2017, 03:49:53 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 04, 2017, 03:24:24 PM

Last week Martin Brehony had another go at the Mayo footballers in the Indo. While his rantings are met with a predictable tsunami of indifference within the county, there was something else on the same page that should concern there GAA as an organisation.

In this short piece, headed "Intercounty apathy a worrying trend," the Galway captain Gary Sice was interviewed, where he said that the Galway manager, Kevin Walsh, had invited over 50 players to trial for the county squad and they had refused to turn up.
(The total according to the manager was 56.)
By any standard that showed a shockingly low level of ambition among Galway's senior footballers.
But other counties have been faced with the same problem and it seems the numbers of disaffected players is growing.
Longford's manager said before the beginning of the championships last year that over 20 players in his county had refused to go for a trial, while the Tipp boss had more or less the same sad tale to relate.
I've heard of defections in Carlow also. I don't know the facts or figures there but I'm sure there are other counties when wearing the county colours is no longer considered worth the effort by many players.
What are the reasons for this lack of enthusiasm?
According to Brehony: "However, it's understandable since players are required to devote so much time and energy to an intercounty programme that guarantees them only two games between early April and the end of the season.
How daft is that?"
Anyone care to comment?

1. The dedication required is huge.

2. The emphasis on Club now and particularly the training schedule at Senior level is now so huge that many feel playing for the club is enough

3. In Derry's case anyway throughout the summer lads who are on the fringes (the kind of guys we're talking about here) are often sat on the subs bench for any Inter County games whilst not being allowed to field for their clubs in the intervening times!

4. If you're from a county outside the top 7/8 what is the point? Really what is the point in Longford/Offaly/Derry/Antrim/Sligo lads seriously dedicating themselves to a cause for 6-9 months at a time only to get beat out the gate by one of the bigger teams. Then for good measure you have a look on RTE or on here and Joe Brolly or your supporters are calling you a useless ****.

5. Younger kids nowadays don't dig in. It's a fact. The first sign of failure or they're not making the panel they won't hang about to knuckle down and force their way on or they won't come back next year!

Why not structure county football like club with senior, intermediate and junior championships. At the moment there are only 7 or 8 teams capable of challenging for the sam maguire and realistically only dublin, mayo and kerry will win this year. Donegal, Cork or tyrone have a very outside chance but outside of that noone is even close to challenging. Derry have 9 or 10 players who have opted out and I don't blame them but if they were playing for an all ireland intermediate championship with the likes of Armagh, Meath, Tipperary, Fermanagh and Galway then I think some of those players may have stayed. Even if they hadn't the players left would have realistic ambitions for the season. It works well at club level and there is no reason it can't work at county. What is the point of teams like Antrim, Carlow and Waterford entering the same competition as Dublin and Kerry? A junior championship with 8 or 10 teams with a final at croke park at the end of august would be something worth playing in. The tommy murphy cup was an afterthought with teams dropping down into it after being knocked out of the primary competition. An all ireland intermediate and junior championship would be the primary competition for those counties and a team which wins one year could move up to the next level the next year just like at club level. That way all teams can hold ambitions of winning sam maguire, although for teams outside the top 8 it would take a year or 2 to qualify.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Itchy on January 04, 2017, 07:53:37 PM
Last year there was the same shite coming out of Galway. It started off as being 10 players wouldn't commit and ended up at around 8000 wouldn't commit.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 04, 2017, 08:38:31 PM
I agree with Lenny.
Senior , Inter and Junior All Ireland Championships, works so well at Club level.
Keep the Provincials as they are with everyone entering them, but as stand alone competitions with a tight timescale.
Then the 3 All Irelands - short and sharp.
Did you ever see a club team who won a Junior or Inter Title not enjoying it?
Will it happen in my lifetime? NO.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: shark on January 04, 2017, 09:19:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 04, 2017, 08:38:31 PM
I agree with Lenny.
Senior , Inter and Junior All Ireland Championships, works so well at Club level.
Keep the Provincials as they are with everyone entering them, but as stand alone competitions with a tight timescale.
Then the 3 All Irelands - short and sharp.
Did you ever see a club team who won a Junior or Inter Title not enjoying it?
Will it happen in my lifetime? NO.

Also, winning becomes a habit. Quite often a team wins junior and finds themselves up in senior quite quickly. Momentum!
But, as you say, it won't happen. No great appetite for it, which is a pity.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Syferus on January 04, 2017, 11:15:58 PM
Quote from: shark on January 04, 2017, 09:19:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 04, 2017, 08:38:31 PM
I agree with Lenny.
Senior , Inter and Junior All Ireland Championships, works so well at Club level.
Keep the Provincials as they are with everyone entering them, but as stand alone competitions with a tight timescale.
Then the 3 All Irelands - short and sharp.
Did you ever see a club team who won a Junior or Inter Title not enjoying it?
Will it happen in my lifetime? NO.

Also, winning becomes a habit. Quite often a team wins junior and finds themselves up in senior quite quickly. Momentum!
But, as you say, it won't happen. No great appetite for it, which is a pity.

Mainly because we have a junior AI already that no one cares about and have had a second level competition that both players and supporters hated. Returning to the same ideas that failed repeatedly is rarely the best way to move forward.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 04, 2017, 11:47:36 PM
You silly childeen.
I'm talking about first 15s as in the Club scene.
Shark is an adult - he understands  ;)
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: moysider on January 05, 2017, 12:24:05 AM
Quote from: Syferus on January 04, 2017, 04:54:23 PM
Sure we have a few lads who retired and a few more who are undecided about committing for 2017 still and we're in D1. Even the SuperDubs aren't immune.

Demands on IC players have become disgusting. There's no other word for it.

Forget coaching for smaller counties for a second - simply limiting the demands teams can place on players is sorely needed if this game is to remain amateur in anything but name.

Also what's burst Sice into life all of a sudden? The man's doing more interviews than Enda Kenny these days..

There will be no going back on the demands that senior IC players have to make. Things never go back. The top teams will keep upping the ante. Or a new team will have to find a new way. But whoever takes Dublin's crown will have to work harder than they do in prep. for a start.

In my time there had been a few major leaps 'forward' in football.
Dublin in the 70's and Kerry responded and eventually overwhelmed them.
Then likes of Meath and Cork in late 80's ratcheted things up again a bit.
Tyrone and to a lesser extent Armagh in the new millennium.
Donegal found a way to take out traditionally bigger teams with another step up.
Dublin have gone and pushed higher again.

Football is not going to go backwards.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: lenny on January 05, 2017, 07:09:46 AM
Quote from: Syferus on January 04, 2017, 11:15:58 PM
Quote from: shark on January 04, 2017, 09:19:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 04, 2017, 08:38:31 PM
I agree with Lenny.
Senior , Inter and Junior All Ireland Championships, works so well at Club level.
Keep the Provincials as they are with everyone entering them, but as stand alone competitions with a tight timescale.
Then the 3 All Irelands - short and sharp.
Did you ever see a club team who won a Junior or Inter Title not enjoying it?
Will it happen in my lifetime? NO.

Also, winning becomes a habit. Quite often a team wins junior and finds themselves up in senior quite quickly. Momentum!
But, as you say, it won't happen. No great appetite for it, which is a pity.

Mainly because we have a junior AI already that no one cares about and have had a second level competition that both players and supporters hated. Returning to the same ideas that failed repeatedly is rarely the best way to move forward.

I'm not suggesting a return to the tommy murphy cup, it was a competition for drop outs. Thi intermediate and junior championship would be the primary competition for counties involved.  They would then move up a level the following year if they win their championship. The present junior all ireland is a competition for junior players in strong counties and is good for players involved. It doesn't address the apathy among players of counties outside the top 7or 8 counties who have nothing to play for championship wise except for the odd big result in the early rounds before getting stuffed at some point.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Jinxy on January 05, 2017, 11:09:48 AM
Exactly.
The realistic chance of progression which a senior, intermediate & junior structure (like every club championship in every county in the country) would provide would do wonders for the interest levels within 'weaker' counties.
Do well you and you go up, do poorly and you go down.
It would take 2-3 years to properly bed in, but if you were to say now in 2017, that in 2021 we are moving to a senior, intermediate and junior intercounty championship structure based on NFL standings, I guarantee that would focus the minds of a lot of players.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 05, 2017, 11:20:17 AM
Too logical though.
Like the clock/hooter only the women can operate it.  :-[
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: thewobbler on January 05, 2017, 11:20:59 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 05, 2017, 11:09:48 AM
Exactly.
The realistic chance of progression which a senior, intermediate & junior structure (like every club championship in every county in the country) would provide would do wonders for the interest levels within 'weaker' counties.
Do well you and you go up, do poorly and you go down.
It would take 2-3 years to properly bed in, but if you were to say now in 2017, that in 2021 we are moving to a senior, intermediate and junior intercounty championship structure based on NFL standings, I guarantee that would focus the minds of a lot of players.

Nope, you can't do that. You definitely can't guarantee it.

---

Historic evidence (junior county football, all-ireland b championships, Tommy Murphy Cup) would all suggest that the majority of players across the country have little or no interest in competing in a second tier county championship.

This can be easily explained by the fact that playing in front of 15,000 people at Healy Park, with TV coverage, and seeing full page spreads in the Irish News is appealing to Frankie from Antrim (even if he will lose 19/20 of such encounters), and as such is worth several months of training and abstinence.

But playing in front of 300 people at Páirc Seán Mac Diarmada, and barely registering a paragraph in the Irish News... well that's actually a lower profile than club football. And you don't need a 6 hour round trip for a club match.

---

Put simply, Senior Club Football has always been the second tier sport in Gaelic Football. Attempts to introduce a new tier between it and Senior County Football, will fail miserably. And it's all down to prestige.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Lone Shark on January 05, 2017, 11:44:43 AM
Until I hear a steady stream of players from division three and division four counties say that they want a tiered structure at senior county level, I won't believe that there is any demand for it. The players I know would prefer to train all year for a Leinster championship and to keep alive the dream of "maybe, it might be our day" than to give in and admit that the Dubs are unbeatable. The Leinster SFC match between Offaly and Westmeath at Mullingar this year meant more to those involved than any intermediate final would, and that's as it should be. I'd wager you'd get a similar response from Leitrim, who would have targeted the game against Roscommon all year, and good luck convincing Tipperary (A D3 team, let's not forget!) that they belong in a second tier championship after the year they've just had.

There's no shortage of ex-players from Kerry, Dublin and Mayo who like to push for a second tier championship, but it's easy say that when your county wouldn't be involved. They're like the Merc drivers who want better public transport, not so that they'd have to use it and rub shoulders with the great unwashed, but so that it might clear the roads a bit and make more space for them. Of course the likes of Martin Breheny wants it too. He can have more games between the big teams and save himself the hassle of mixing with the hoi polloi out in the sticks. 

Moreover, those selling the idea of a second tier championship like to promise things that they're not in a position to deliver. Already we're in a situation where the national media is far more interested in reporting bland comments from a manager or player with one of the top teams than on actual matches, and the GAA has allowed this situation to the develop. A picture is painted of good coverage of second tier games and an August Sunday in Croke Park, but what will actually happen instead is that the crowds won't be good enough, the games will be quietly moved out of HQ, and the papers will largely ignore the competition. Already I've noticed that many papers don't provide reports from ordinary games that they would have covered previously, instead going for wrap up articles, or ignoring them already. The TV cameras will have no interest in covering Leitrim vs Carlow the Junior championship so sponsorship opportunities for those counties will diminish, widening the gap even further.

Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 05, 2017, 12:11:11 PM
And of course the present system has Leitrim and Carlow in great shape.
Anyway in my earlier piece I said to leave everyone compete in their Provincials so Laythrum can get 3 wins over Roscommon every 50 years and Antrim can get their annual tanking reported on in the Irish News.
3 levels of short sharp focused inter Co All Ireland Championships is so logical only the LGFA would come up with it.
Or every Co Board in Ireland for Club competitions.
As I said earlier I won't live to see it though.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Owenmoresider on January 05, 2017, 12:55:32 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 05, 2017, 11:44:43 AM
Until I hear a steady stream of players from division three and division four counties say that they want a tiered structure at senior county level, I won't believe that there is any demand for it. The players I know would prefer to train all year for a Leinster championship and to keep alive the dream of "maybe, it might be our day" than to give in and admit that the Dubs are unbeatable. The Leinster SFC match between Offaly and Westmeath at Mullingar this year meant more to those involved than any intermediate final would, and that's as it should be. I'd wager you'd get a similar response from Leitrim, who would have targeted the game against Roscommon all year, and good luck convincing Tipperary (A D3 team, let's not forget!) that they belong in a second tier championship after the year they've just had.

There's no shortage of ex-players from Kerry, Dublin and Mayo who like to push for a second tier championship, but it's easy say that when your county wouldn't be involved. They're like the Merc drivers who want better public transport, not so that they'd have to use it and rub shoulders with the great unwashed, but so that it might clear the roads a bit and make more space for them. Of course the likes of Martin Breheny wants it too. He can have more games between the big teams and save himself the hassle of mixing with the hoi polloi out in the sticks. 

Moreover, those selling the idea of a second tier championship like to promise things that they're not in a position to deliver. Already we're in a situation where the national media is far more interested in reporting bland comments from a manager or player with one of the top teams than on actual matches, and the GAA has allowed this situation to the develop. A picture is painted of good coverage of second tier games and an August Sunday in Croke Park, but what will actually happen instead is that the crowds won't be good enough, the games will be quietly moved out of HQ, and the papers will largely ignore the competition. Already I've noticed that many papers don't provide reports from ordinary games that they would have covered previously, instead going for wrap up articles, or ignoring them already. The TV cameras will have no interest in covering Leitrim vs Carlow the Junior championship so sponsorship opportunities for those counties will diminish, widening the gap even further.
Well said. Look at how quickly the Ring/Rackard Cups were shunted off from being on the hurling semi-finals bill to being rushed off and played on the June bank holiday. The football equivalents would probably meet a similar fate.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Lone Shark on January 05, 2017, 12:58:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 05, 2017, 12:11:11 PM
And of course the present system has Leitrim and Carlow in great shape.
Anyway in my earlier piece I said to leave everyone compete in their Provincials so Laythrum can get 3 wins over Roscommon every 50 years and Antrim can get their annual tanking reported on in the Irish News.
3 levels of short sharp focused inter Co All Ireland Championships is so logical only the LGFA would come up with it.
Or every Co Board in Ireland for Club competitions.
As I said earlier I won't live to see it though.

The system is not responsible for Leitrim and Carlow being where they are. The fact that they have less than 40,000 of a population each has them where they are. However as long as the provincials exist, they can dream of 1994 and 1944, or if nothing else, grit their teeth and work hard to try and get those one off wins over Ros/Sligo/Laois/Kildare that would mean so much.

However that dream will only sustain them as long as the provincial championships are real competitions. Even now they've been devalued a little bit with the advent of the back door, but if you change them to stand alone efforts with no bearing on the race for the Sam Maguire, then they become preseason competitions. Imagine for a moment you're the Tipperary footballers - things are going well, and your dream now is to push on, to knock over either Cork or Kerry in the Munster championship and maybe win a provincial title. I guarantee you they'll be driving full steam ahead to fulfil that aspiration - but that won't mean anything like the same if instead the Munster championship is turned into this blitz competition that is boxed off by the June Bank Holiday weekend, with the big teams all keeping one eye on the real games that are going to be played in late July and August. The currency of a provincial title will be dramatically devalued as there will be no reason for Eamon Fitzmaurice, Jim Gavin or Rory Gallagher to get their teams fully tuned in at that time of year. Instead they'll fulfil the fixture, and instead of our current system where there are five championship prizes that are worth winning, instead there will be just one. 
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: joemamas on January 05, 2017, 01:32:38 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 05, 2017, 11:44:43 AM
Until I hear a steady stream of players from division three and division four counties say that they want a tiered structure at senior county level, I won't believe that there is any demand for it. The players I know would prefer to train all year for a Leinster championship and to keep alive the dream of "maybe, it might be our day" than to give in and admit that the Dubs are unbeatable. The Leinster SFC match between Offaly and Westmeath at Mullingar this year meant more to those involved than any intermediate final would, and that's as it should be. I'd wager you'd get a similar response from Leitrim, who would have targeted the game against Roscommon all year, and good luck convincing Tipperary (A D3 team, let's not forget!) that they belong in a second tier championship after the year they've just had.

There's no shortage of ex-players from Kerry, Dublin and Mayo who like to push for a second tier championship, but it's easy say that when your county wouldn't be involved. They're like the Merc drivers who want better public transport, not so that they'd have to use it and rub shoulders with the great unwashed, but so that it might clear the roads a bit and make more space for them. Of course the likes of Martin Breheny wants it too. He can have more games between the big teams and save himself the hassle of mixing with the hoi polloi out in the sticks. 

Moreover, those selling the idea of a second tier championship like to promise things that they're not in a position to deliver. Already we're in a situation where the national media is far more interested in reporting bland comments from a manager or player with one of the top teams than on actual matches, and the GAA has allowed this situation to the develop. A picture is painted of good coverage of second tier games and an August Sunday in Croke Park, but what will actually happen instead is that the crowds won't be good enough, the games will be quietly moved out of HQ, and the papers will largely ignore the competition. Already I've noticed that many papers don't provide reports from ordinary games that they would have covered previously, instead going for wrap up articles, or ignoring them already. The TV cameras will have no interest in covering Leitrim vs Carlow the Junior championship so sponsorship opportunities for those counties will diminish, widening the gap even further.

Point taken, but what if apathy does continue, where in the next five to ten years due to the demands of IC football, and the remote possibility of success leads to more and more potential county players in div 3 and div 4 (using this for illustrative purposes only) saying shag it, just not worth it.

Would it not be better to put a potential longer-term solution into place, where over a ten year period, the so called weaker counties, play in a separate championship, where the semi-finals and finals are played in croke park and the winners move into Q final. In addition, somebody in GAA marketing takes their finger out and promotes the you know what out of those semi and finals to ensure they are played before a meaningful crowd.

If I can sit in front of a key board in my office and in 15 mins come up with six quick ways to boost attendance at this kind of a fixture, surely to God, somebody who is being paid full time by the GAA can do similar, unless they are totally inept. The annual Q/finals attendance debacle on August bank holiday readily comes to mind on this.

A lot of it comes down to perception and marketing and long -term stratgizing.

Population is a very valid argument, and not to digress, but is the parential rule still not in place, where young fellas can play for county of parents. Not ideal, but when you hear of the numbers of players showing up for u10 and u12 training and coaching in Dublin and other cities, a lot of potential inter county footballers are flying under the radar. Logistically difficult, I know.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: thewobbler on January 05, 2017, 01:50:52 PM
Joe mamas - what a simple world you must live in.

It used to take a crowd of 35k to break even when opening croke park. I've no idea what it is now, but that's a pretty good start point.

Now seeing as most of the counties taking part in a junior championship would be those with a smaller population and those where football isn't traditionally a popular sport, just how close to reading 35k people do you think you'd get? Even with a double header? I'd guess you'd be at least 25k short.

Obviously you're now going to make this a marketing problem. But here's the thing: marketing a substandard product is almost impossible when a superior product is available. How many Dubs are realistically going to watch Liatroim v Carlow on a Saturday afternoon in Croke, when the following day they can watch Dublin v Donegal? The answer is precisely somewhere between none and not enough to fill a Seat Alhambra. Even if the tickets were free.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Lone Shark on January 05, 2017, 01:56:25 PM
Quote from: joemamas on January 05, 2017, 01:32:38 PM
Point taken, but what if apathy does continue, where in the next five to ten years due to the demands of IC football, and the remote possibility of success leads to more and more potential county players in div 3 and div 4 (using this for illustrative purposes only) saying shag it, just not worth it.

Would it not be better to put a potential longer-term solution into place, where over a ten year period, the so called weaker counties, play in a separate championship, where the semi-finals and finals are played in croke park and the winners move into Q final. In addition, somebody in GAA marketing takes their finger out and promotes the you know what out of those semi and finals to ensure they are played before a meaningful crowd.

Several aspects here. Firstly, what you're doing is saying to half the intercounty players of the country that even though you've said you don't want this, we anticipate what you're going to do in ten years time, we know that better than you, and we've decided what you really want, even if you don't know it yet.

As I've said before, if a steady stream of players start going on the record and saying that they are not interested in playing because the competitions they enter are unwinnable, to the point that it can be reasonably assumed that this is the majority view, I will completely change my tune. Until that happens, I'll be steadfast in my view that a second or third tier championship will be a terrible idea.

And please, no more "marketing" nonsense. Every sporting fixture and every sporting body, male and female, thinks that the reason feck all people come in the door is a lack of marketing. We get it from the LGFA, from the League of Ireland, from club rugby, and from the National League of the GAA as well at times. Worst of all is the interprovincials. We had two weeks when they were the only GAA story in town and they got loads of coverage. Less than 100 people showed up at games, and still there were shills coming out saying that a lack of marketing was the problem. Ultimately if the public decide that they don't like something, they won't go.

Quote from: joemamas on January 05, 2017, 01:32:38 PM
If I can sit in front of a key board in my office and in 15 mins come up with six quick ways to boost attendance at this kind of a fixture, surely to God, somebody who is being paid full time by the GAA can do similar, unless they are totally inept. The annual Q/finals attendance debacle on August bank holiday readily comes to mind on this.

I'm sorry, but no. I'd love to hear your six things, and I'll read with an open mind when you list them, but what you are talking about is the Christy Ring Cup of football, and again I say that if the public don't care, you won't be able to make them care. More Offaly people attended the county senior hurling final between St Rynaghs and Birr than attended all three of our intercounty games in the round robin series against Carlow, Westmeath and Laois, COMBINED. Second tier just doesn't do it for folks.


Quote from: joemamas on January 05, 2017, 01:32:38 PM
Population is a very valid argument, and not to digress, but is the parential rule still not in place, where young fellas can play for county of parents. Not ideal, but when you hear of the numbers of players showing up for u10 and u12 training and coaching in Dublin and other cities, a lot of potential inter county footballers are flying under the radar. Logistically difficult, I know.

This rule still is in place but the one thing that continues to fuel players, teams, clubs and counties across the land is passion, and pride of place. I have no issue whatsoever with a young player who has an interest in Offaly GAA and who has a genuine connection with the county lining out in the tricolour, regardless of where he sleeps at night. However a player that decides that playing for Dublin is out of reach and so he'll take advantage of his parentage just for expediency is another matter. I've no doubt that there are lots of good footballers in Dublin who would be better players than the outliers in Pat Flanagan's current panel, but the greater good will not be served by the wholehearted lad from the locality losing out to the fella that never watched a club game in the county up until he decided that he'd like to wear the county colours as a fall back. I had a few chats with John Coughlan when he made the switch a few years ago and he was a nice lad who had a genuine interest, but even then it just didn't work out for him. Actually come to think of it, are there any success stories from this rule anywhere out there?
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 05, 2017, 02:12:38 PM
The looks of sheer unbridled joy on the faces of the Roscommon Rackard winning squad in the post match photo in 2015 shows what winning a lower tier All Ireland meant.
Very few might have gone to see them but like the Junior and Inter Club AIs that didn't diminish their delight.
As for the theory of the 35k break even crowd in Croker - that was
A - when they were paying off the debt and
B - arrived at by dividing the annual cost of running Croker by the number of fixtures.

But at the end of the day the present system isn't exactly drawing them in with football attendances taking a huge drop.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Lone Shark on January 05, 2017, 03:11:15 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 05, 2017, 02:12:38 PM
The looks of sheer unbridled joy on the faces of the Roscommon Rackard winning squad in the post match photo in 2015 shows what winning a lower tier All Ireland meant.
Very few might have gone to see them but like the Junior and Inter Club AIs that didn't diminish their delight.
As for the theory of the 35k break even crowd in Croker - that was
A - when they were paying off the debt and
B - arrived at by dividing the annual cost of running Croker by the number of fixtures.

But at the end of the day the present system isn't exactly drawing them in with football attendances taking a huge drop.

A couple of key differences here. Firstly, Roscommon weren't pulled from the race for the Liam McCarthy against their will to play the Nicky Rackard Cup, and the players wanted a competition of this nature since they effectively had nothing.

Secondly, and with all due respect to lads like Micheál Kelly that is as good a hurler as you'll see, there is no circumstance possible that will see Roscommon beating a KK/Tipp/Cork/LK/Clare/Waterford/Galway in the next 50 years. Regardless of how much any of those counties decline, or how much Roscommon improve, it's never going to happen. Bridging that gap in football is extremely difficult, but you can dream, and nearly every county in Ireland has experienced one football result in the last 30 years that proves that the dream can come true.

Personally I've no issue with the crowds element, since I don't believe that you need to have a big audience to justify holding a competition - however I do have a problem with counties being sold a pup and being told that their key "intermediate" games will be held in front of crowds of 30k plus, when they clearly won't.

One again, if players from the lower division counties come out and say they want this, it should be supported - but the idea that it should be railroaded through against their wishes is nonsense.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 05, 2017, 03:50:24 PM
I wonder has anyone put the Leeny/Jinxy/me thing to the panels of the weaker Counties?
Anyway don't the wise old Administrators usually make decisions so as to save the GAA from mad young lads who should be out playing and burning off energy instead if interfering in the running of theach Assocuation☺
You know those under 25s and their undeveloped lobes and all that.
Seriously what is the dream of entering the Qualifiers for the D4 teams? Even if some of them do a Longford and bate a few big lads over the years there's still no cup or medals or big day out in Croker.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: magpie seanie on January 05, 2017, 04:00:38 PM
It just strikes me as weird that junior/intermediate/senior or some variation is in place in practically every level of competition in the GAA except senior intercounty football. I think the 8 groups of 4 with top 16 into "A" and rest into "B" is about the best that can be expected.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: thewobbler on January 05, 2017, 04:51:39 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 05, 2017, 04:00:38 PM
It just strikes me as weird that junior/intermediate/senior or some variation is in place in practically every level of competition in the GAA except senior intercounty football. I think the 8 groups of 4 with top 16 into "A" and rest into "B" is about the best that can be expected.

But it's not weird as there is a "fallback" level for everyone involved, which is club football.

Does anybody really want to create situation whereby players are forced to chose between junior county football and senior club football for their summer game? Because that's the immediate outcome of creating a second tier county competition.

Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: thewobbler on January 05, 2017, 04:55:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 05, 2017, 03:50:24 PM
I wonder has anyone put the Leeny/Jinxy/me thing to the panels of the weaker Counties?
Anyway don't the wise old Administrators usually make decisions so as to save the GAA from mad young lads who should be out playing and burning off energy instead if interfering in the running of theach Assocuation☺
You know those under 25s and their undeveloped lobes and all that.
Seriously what is the dream of entering the Qualifiers for the D4 teams? Even if some of them do a Longford and bate a few big lads over the years there's still no cup or medals or big day out in Croker.

This is the same case with every competition in the world.

Why did Dundalk even bother taking part in the Europa league?

Or Hull in the Premiership?

Or Cleveland in the NFL?

Or Ballymartin the Down SFC?

To test yourself at the highest level and to build upon it.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 05, 2017, 04:56:19 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 05, 2017, 04:00:38 PM
It just strikes me as weird that junior/intermediate/senior or some variation is in place in practically every level of competition in the GAA except senior intercounty football.
Wasn't  always the case. Ros were graded Junior in the 1930s and our 1940 AI JFC was won by our first 15.
3 years later.....
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 05, 2017, 04:58:15 PM
Wobbler - them teams won the right to play there just like Junior club champions go Inter and Inter Champions go Senior
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: thewobbler on January 05, 2017, 05:16:43 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 05, 2017, 04:58:15 PM
Wobbler - them teams won the right to play there just like Junior club champions go Inter and Inter Champions go Senior

But they aren't representative teams.

Stop thinking of GAA counties as clubs and instead accept them for what they are - representative teams, more in line with an international football or rugby or cricket side. When a player isn't good enough to make any of those representative teams, he goes back to his club side. But when he is good enough, he doesn't get to choose which country he plays for; he makes the best out of what has been given.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Cunny Funt on January 05, 2017, 06:03:06 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 05, 2017, 11:44:43 AM
Until I hear a steady stream of players from division three and division four counties say that they want a tiered structure at senior county level, I won't believe that there is any demand for it. The players I know would prefer to train all year for a Leinster championship and to keep alive the dream of "maybe, it might be our day" than to give in and admit that the Dubs are unbeatable. The Leinster SFC match between Offaly and Westmeath at Mullingar this year meant more to those involved than any intermediate final would, and that's as it should be. I'd wager you'd get a similar response from Leitrim, who would have targeted the game against Roscommon all year, and good luck convincing Tipperary (A D3 team, let's not forget!) that they belong in a second tier championship after the year they've just had.

There's no shortage of ex-players from Kerry, Dublin and Mayo who like to push for a second tier championship, but it's easy say that when your county wouldn't be involved. They're like the Merc drivers who want better public transport, not so that they'd have to use it and rub shoulders with the great unwashed, but so that it might clear the roads a bit and make more space for them. Of course the likes of Martin Breheny wants it too. He can have more games between the big teams and save himself the hassle of mixing with the hoi polloi out in the sticks. 

Moreover, those selling the idea of a second tier championship like to promise things that they're not in a position to deliver. Already we're in a situation where the national media is far more interested in reporting bland comments from a manager or player with one of the top teams than on actual matches, and the GAA has allowed this situation to the develop. A picture is painted of good coverage of second tier games and an August Sunday in Croke Park, but what will actually happen instead is that the crowds won't be good enough, the games will be quietly moved out of HQ, and the papers will largely ignore the competition. Already I've noticed that many papers don't provide reports from ordinary games that they would have covered previously, instead going for wrap up articles, or ignoring them already. The TV cameras will have no interest in covering Leitrim vs Carlow the Junior championship so sponsorship opportunities for those counties will diminish, widening the gap even further.
Nail on head there.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: BallyhaiseMan on January 05, 2017, 10:25:30 PM
Quote from: SpeculativeEffort on January 05, 2017, 09:20:12 PM
The attitude of Div 3 and 4 players towards a tiered competition merely shows their lack of ambition for all to see. Instead of earning the right to compete with the best they want it guaranteed to them, no matter how bad they are. They also forget that even if they begin in tier 3, they are only 2 years away from the top level as they can work hard, measure progress and work their way up. At the moment they are light years away and only codding themselves.

Are you sure Gaelic Football is the sport for you???
If a player is deemed good enough to make a county panel and is willing to put in the 5-7 training sessions throughout the season,including recovery sessions required to represent their county, that earns them the right to match up against the best,no matter  how good or bad their team is.
Division 3 and 4 National League teams have every much a right to partake in the All Ireland championship as the likes of Dublin or Kerry.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: lenny on January 06, 2017, 07:00:32 AM
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on January 05, 2017, 10:25:30 PM
Quote from: SpeculativeEffort on January 05, 2017, 09:20:12 PM
The attitude of Div 3 and 4 players towards a tiered competition merely shows their lack of ambition for all to see. Instead of earning the right to compete with the best they want it guaranteed to them, no matter how bad they are. They also forget that even if they begin in tier 3, they are only 2 years away from the top level as they can work hard, measure progress and work their way up. At the moment they are light years away and only codding themselves.

Are you sure Gaelic Football is the sport for you???
If a player is deemed good enough to make a county panel and is willing to put in the 5-7 training sessions throughout the season,including recovery sessions required to represent their county, that earns them the right to match up against the best,no matter  how good or bad their team is.
Division 3 and 4 National League teams have every much a right to partake in the All Ireland championship as the likes of Dublin or Kerry.

So we continue with the system we have where club football is put on hold while there are 2 or 3 months of completely meaningless matches up to the start of august when th real competition starts. A competition where the likes of carlow, leitrim, waterford could be drawn against dublin, mayo, kerry is just a ridiculous situation. There's a complete apathy there among a lot of players of teams outside the top 6 or 8 teams and also an even bigger apathy among supporters in general. The influential managers of the top teams will continue to say that there is nothing wrong with the system but they are failing to see the problems at lower level teams.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: skeog on January 06, 2017, 09:19:16 AM
Seems to be some apathy in Donegal Odhran Mc Niallis and Anthony Thompson opting out.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: thewobbler on January 06, 2017, 10:28:00 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 10:08:14 AM
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on January 05, 2017, 10:25:30 PM
Quote from: SpeculativeEffort on January 05, 2017, 09:20:12 PM
The attitude of Div 3 and 4 players towards a tiered competition merely shows their lack of ambition for all to see. Instead of earning the right to compete with the best they want it guaranteed to them, no matter how bad they are. They also forget that even if they begin in tier 3, they are only 2 years away from the top level as they can work hard, measure progress and work their way up. At the moment they are light years away and only codding themselves.

Are you sure Gaelic Football is the sport for you???
If a player is deemed good enough to make a county panel and is willing to put in the 5-7 training sessions throughout the season,including recovery sessions required to represent their county, that earns them the right to match up against the best,no matter  how good or bad their team is.
Division 3 and 4 National League teams have every much a right to partake in the All Ireland championship as the likes of Dublin or Kerry.

Do you think it is a good or a bad thing that the inter-county hurling championship is effectively divided into senior, intermediate and junior?


If as a player (let's say someone from Down) you're used to playing in front of crowds of around 500 people in a competition that barely registers a column in regional papers and never makes the TV, i.e. The Ulster Senior Hurling Championship... then playing in a second tier competition is never going to cause much anguish.

If as a player (let's say someone from Down) you're used to having at least one very bright day in the sun every summer, then it's a hell of a comedown to second tier football. Made even worse by the fact that some of the team will want to push on and go up (by training 6 days a week) and others will accept it for what it is and train accordingly.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 11:15:46 AM
Yes, but you're talking about changing a mindset as opposed to there being something fundamentally wrong with the idea of a senior/inter/junior system at inter-county level.
Plus, I would be in favour of retaining the provincial championships as stand-alone cup competitions a la the FA Cup.
The NFL would basically morph into what we know now as 'The Championship'.
So, as a player in a 'weaker' county, you now have a better chance of winning meaningful silverware, whether it be a junior 'All-Ireland' championship or a provincial championship.
Look at how well a lot of lower league teams do in the FA Cup now that the top teams are primarily focused on the Premiership and European football?
We have to be willing to put up with the whinging from players and managers and look at the bigger picture here.
Never mind planning for the next 5 years, we should be planning for the next 15-20 years.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 06, 2017, 11:39:36 AM
Long term indeed Jinxy.
Should be some Committee/Commission looking at where we might be in 2037, where we should aim to be, how we get there, competition structures demographic  changes, etc etc
Never mind who'll vote for what at the next Congress.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 11:56:31 AM
It seems to me that amidst all the convoluted, headache-inducing suggestions we've listened to for a revised championship structure thus far, the much simpler and appropriate answer has always been staring us in the face.
If a few big-time charlies are more motivated by taking a hammering from a far superior team in front of a big crowd on a sunny day than they are by actually winning games, then you're better off without them.
We don't live in an age of 'shock' results anymore.
The cards are stacked against the little guy like never before in this new high-performance era.
It's time to stop deluding ourselves.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: AZOffaly on January 06, 2017, 11:57:34 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 11:56:31 AM
It seems to me that amidst all the convoluted, headache-inducing suggestions we've listened to for a revised championship structure thus far, the much simpler and appropriate answer has always been staring us in the face.
If a few big-time charlies are more motivated by taking a hammering from a far superior team in front of a big crowd on a sunny day than they are by actually winning games, then you're better off without them.
We don't live in an age of 'shock' results anymore.
The cards are stacked against the little guy like never before in this new high-performance era.
It's time to stop deluding ourselves.

Tell that to Tipp
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Esmarelda on January 06, 2017, 12:05:00 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 11:56:31 AM
It seems to me that amidst all the convoluted, headache-inducing suggestions we've listened to for a revised championship structure thus far, the much simpler and appropriate answer has always been staring us in the face.
If a few big-time charlies are more motivated by taking a hammering from a far superior team in front of a big crowd on a sunny day than they are by actually winning games, then you're better off without them.
We don't live in an age of 'shock' results anymore.
The cards are stacked against the little guy like never before in this new high-performance era.
It's time to stop deluding ourselves.
A few? "There is no appetite" is what we're being told by the GPA and by Croke Park.

Your view is valid but, as AZ has pointed out in this endless discussion, what are we trying to fix if we change the championship structure? Are we trying to keep the media happy or are we taking into account all of the stakeholders, of which I would suggest the players are probably the highest rank, and adjusting the championship to suit their wishes?

I think it is, and should be, the latter and I think that's what the new proposal has attempted to do.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: AZOffaly on January 06, 2017, 12:19:25 PM
I'd be thinking along similar lines to Lone Shark on this one. If there is a drive amongst the players and county boards to go into tiers, similar to the hurling, then fair enough, go for it. I don't think those hurling tiers have been treated at all fairly, but it's still probably an improvement on their lot before they came in. At least most counties field teams now, and play competitions.

Of course in football, all counties (bar Kilkenny) already play and field teams at Senior level, and while they all have varying levels of competitiveness, the players and counties seem content to be part of the race for Sam and their provinces, however unlikely their prospects for ultimate success.

I believe, strongly, that if the teams and counties want to compete at a single level, then we should allow them to do so. Cinderella stories are rare, but they do exist, and I'd hate Tipperary, Offaly, Sligo, Westmeath, Louth etc to have missed out on great days at provincial/national level relatively recently, simply because someone thinks they shouldn't be allowed mix with the big boys.

That said, I would be open to considering a system which places more emphasis on the league, and eliminates things like the qualifiers. Or perhaps places more emphasis on the Provincial championships, but only allows Provincial finalists move on to an All Ireland series.

Two that I could see possibly working are

1) Seedings in provincial competitions being determined via league standings, with the high seeds only entering the provincials at a later stage. This would be similar to what already happens in Munster for example, but the seedings would be based on league position, rather than previous year championship results. Provincial is knockout, and there is no qualifier.

2) Provincial tournaments drawn as is, but only the finalists (8 teams) are allowed enter the final race for Sam. This could then be done as per the proposal for the round robin today. For the remainder the Province is straight knockout, and once you are gone, you are gone.

I just know that if we come along and say right lads, these 8 teams are in the Sam Maguire, these 12 are in the Cormac McAnallen Cup and these 12 are in the Enda Colleran Cup, you will almost immediately see the value of the games in the lower tiers dissipate, and I'm convinced you'd see a further fall off in numbers of lads willing to commit for a summer of games in front of pitiful attendances, ignored by media and fans alike.

I'd be fairly sure that Tipperary's recent, and modest, achievements (no senior adult cups yet!) would not have even occured if they were consigned to a tier 3 competition.

Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 06, 2017, 12:23:02 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 06, 2017, 11:57:34 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 11:56:31 AM
It seems to me that amidst all the convoluted, headache-inducing suggestions we've listened to for a revised championship structure thus far, the much simpler and appropriate answer has always been staring us in the face.
If a few big-time charlies are more motivated by taking a hammering from a far superior team in front of a big crowd on a sunny day than they are by actually winning games, then you're better off without them.
We don't live in an age of 'shock' results anymore.
The cards are stacked against the little guy like never before in this new high-performance era.
It's time to stop deluding ourselves.

Tell that to Tipp
With all the good underage teams of recent years I suspect Tipp would have won the Junior and Inter and would now be Senior if such existed this decade.
Another thing to " 2037 Commission" needs to examine is the need for Provincials Councils in this high tech instant communication era plus
Demographics.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 12:23:49 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 06, 2017, 11:57:34 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 11:56:31 AM
It seems to me that amidst all the convoluted, headache-inducing suggestions we've listened to for a revised championship structure thus far, the much simpler and appropriate answer has always been staring us in the face.
If a few big-time charlies are more motivated by taking a hammering from a far superior team in front of a big crowd on a sunny day than they are by actually winning games, then you're better off without them.
We don't live in an age of 'shock' results anymore.
The cards are stacked against the little guy like never before in this new high-performance era.
It's time to stop deluding ourselves.

Tell that to Tipp

Tipp are not a 'weaker' county though, in terms of resources or playing personnel.
Their championship form in recent years would have them as a very competitive 'high' intermediate team or 'low' senior team in the revised structure.
I don't know why they do so poorly in the league.
They were one spot away from dropping to Division 4, which doesn't make sense to me.
Anyway, I'd say they wouldn't be long moving up to Division 2 in the NFL if they knew it would affect their subsequent grading for the championship.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: AZOffaly on January 06, 2017, 12:26:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 06, 2017, 12:23:02 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 06, 2017, 11:57:34 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 11:56:31 AM
It seems to me that amidst all the convoluted, headache-inducing suggestions we've listened to for a revised championship structure thus far, the much simpler and appropriate answer has always been staring us in the face.
If a few big-time charlies are more motivated by taking a hammering from a far superior team in front of a big crowd on a sunny day than they are by actually winning games, then you're better off without them.
We don't live in an age of 'shock' results anymore.
The cards are stacked against the little guy like never before in this new high-performance era.
It's time to stop deluding ourselves.

Tell that to Tipp
With all the good underage teams of recent years I suspect Tipp would have won the Junior and Inter and would now be Senior if such existed this decade.
Another thing to " 2037 Commission" needs to examine is the need for Provincials Councils in this high tech instant communication era plus
Demographics.

I don't think they'd have kept the players they did. In fact I think the relatively tenuous hold they have was laid bare last year with the lads leaving the panels for different things. The outlook was bleak enough at the start of the year, and I think that's why a few of the lads didn't stay around. What happened subsequently will hopefully bolster the whole setup, but it wouldn't take much for the Tipp project to derail. You need to be going for years and be well established before you can come off high alert in terms of attracting and keeping players.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: AZOffaly on January 06, 2017, 12:28:31 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 12:23:49 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 06, 2017, 11:57:34 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 11:56:31 AM
It seems to me that amidst all the convoluted, headache-inducing suggestions we've listened to for a revised championship structure thus far, the much simpler and appropriate answer has always been staring us in the face.
If a few big-time charlies are more motivated by taking a hammering from a far superior team in front of a big crowd on a sunny day than they are by actually winning games, then you're better off without them.
We don't live in an age of 'shock' results anymore.
The cards are stacked against the little guy like never before in this new high-performance era.
It's time to stop deluding ourselves.

Tell that to Tipp

Tipp are not a 'weaker' county though, in terms of resources or playing personnel.
Their championship form in recent years would have them as a very competitive 'high' intermediate team or 'low' senior team in the revised structure.
I don't know why they do so poorly in the league.
They were one spot away from dropping to Division 4, which doesn't make sense to me.
Anyway, I'd say they wouldn't be long moving up to Division 2 in the NFL if they knew it would affect their subsequent grading for the championship.

Tipp were a Division 4 team two or three years ago. If you told young players in Tipp that they would aspire to play Division 4, and some third tier cup, and maybe someday be allowed play in the Sam Maguire, you'd have a lot less than we even have now willing to go that route. Even several years ago, they could aspire to playing in the Munster Championship, and have big days v Cork and Kerry. That kept them going for a long time.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 12:29:29 PM
They'll still have the Munster championship though.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: AZOffaly on January 06, 2017, 12:36:09 PM
With all these proposals I'm confused now. As Esmerelda states, I've often questioned exactly what problem we are trying to fix.

- Uncompetitive games
- Long running championship
- Lip service to the league
- Dying Provincial Championships
- More games between big teams
- TV ratings
- Attendances
- Player commitment/burnout
- Player apathy/leaving panels

Every time this thread comes up a variation appears, and I don't claim to know everything by any means, but one thing I do know is that unless there is consensus about what the problem(s) is/are, then ANY modification will just end up causing a different bullet point being added above.

And to just say introduce a tiered championship to address some of the points above, would be a half arsed solution which would exacerbate some of the other issues, and introduce brand new ones, unless there is a real will for it to be introduced by the people who matter most. The players, the people involved with county teams, and the counties themselves. Media and supporters decrying some aspects and dying for some sort of nirvana where Kerry play Dublin, Tyrone and Mayo every week does not represent a solid basis for change.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 12:40:35 PM
Why is player apathy a problem at the moment?
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: AZOffaly on January 06, 2017, 12:47:42 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 12:40:35 PM
Why is player apathy a problem at the moment?

Who knows? Myriad reasons.

Style of play? Commitment required? Chances of winning Sam? Women preferring Rugby players? Wine, women and song? If you are suggesting that player apathy would be one issue resolved at a sweep by introducing a tiered championship, I think you are wrong. I think what you would do is create a whole slew of other disaffected players who have no interest in playing devalued competitions and being told they are not allowed waste the big teams' time.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 01:10:29 PM
Nobody is holding a gun to anybody's head forcing them to play inter-county football and players are free to opt in/out if they want to.
It has ever been thus, with lads going travelling, heading to America for the summer etc.
Should that stop us from trying a new system, that they are already familiar with at club level?
If it's not unfair at club level, why would it be unfair at county level?

My feeling is that the lure of winning matches with a realistic chance of progression, coupled with the prospect of a sunny day out in front of a big crowd against the big dogs in a cup competition, would be enough to maintain interest levels.
For me, the most consistently entertaining and competitive inter-county competition we have is the league.
I love the idea of the last day where the games are all finishing up within minutes of each other and you're waiting to hear how other teams above/below you got on, and how that affects your place in the table.
Also, knowing when and where games will be played well in advance.
You get to watch your team at home and then go on the road to new and exciting places like Carrick-on-Shannon and Tullamore!

To be honest, players are primarily interested in themselves and looking after their own interests.
I was the same when I was playing.
I just think that the Association's interests, and by that I mean the interests of the wider membership, supercede that.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Zulu on January 06, 2017, 01:22:56 PM
Jinxy, you're bang about the league, it's by far the best competition in the GAA and every other team sport recognises that but us. If you could scrap the whole GAA system and start again what would people come up with? That's all that needs to be answered and if you could you wouldn't have what we have and you wouldn't have the provincials as a central focus of the main competition. The leagues need to replace the provincials as the core element of the championship, once you do that most of the problems will be solved.

Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: BallyhaiseMan on January 06, 2017, 01:31:22 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 06, 2017, 07:00:32 AM
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on January 05, 2017, 10:25:30 PM
Quote from: SpeculativeEffort on January 05, 2017, 09:20:12 PM
The attitude of Div 3 and 4 players towards a tiered competition merely shows their lack of ambition for all to see. Instead of earning the right to compete with the best they want it guaranteed to them, no matter how bad they are. They also forget that even if they begin in tier 3, they are only 2 years away from the top level as they can work hard, measure progress and work their way up. At the moment they are light years away and only codding themselves.

Are you sure Gaelic Football is the sport for you???
If a player is deemed good enough to make a county panel and is willing to put in the 5-7 training sessions throughout the season,including recovery sessions required to represent their county, that earns them the right to match up against the best,no matter  how good or bad their team is.
Division 3 and 4 National League teams have every much a right to partake in the All Ireland championship as the likes of Dublin or Kerry.

So we continue with the system we have where club football is put on hold while there are 2 or 3 months of completely meaningless matches up to the start of august when th real competition starts. A competition where the likes of carlow, leitrim, waterford could be drawn against dublin, mayo, kerry is just a ridiculous situation. There's a complete apathy there among a lot of players of teams outside the top 6 or 8 teams and also an even bigger apathy among supporters in general. The influential managers of the top teams will continue to say that there is nothing wrong with the system but they are failing to see the problems at lower level teams.

You talk about general apathy among alot of teams outside the top 6 or 8 and an even bigger apathy among supporters. If you think that is bad,imagine the apathy if all the players had to look forward to was a Tommy Murphy cup game with a fellow Division 3/4 team in May, in front of 800/1,000 spectators. I know a few years ago before this resurgence,Cavan were atrocious and were literally only saved from going down to Division 4 for the first time ever by scoring difference and were beaten by Cork by 20 plus points in the championship. The players on the panel that i know,knew results wouldn't be great,but still put in the hard work knowing because they still looked forward to their day in the sun in Breffni in front of 15,000 for the Ulster Championship or maybe a qualifier with an Ulster county or one of the big boys in front of a large attendance.

I completely understand where yourself and Jinxy are coming from when you say this by the way so i'm not rubbishing your views, and i know in a perfect world, the grading like we have in club football which is what you  are suggesting would probably be the right way to go,but because we have the tradition of everyone bar Kilkenny competing in the same championship,no matter how bad they are,any shift away from that would probably cause serious  problems with those counties at the lower ends of the spectrum in terms of player participation. It would be a disaster in my opinion.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: lenny on January 06, 2017, 01:41:07 PM
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on January 06, 2017, 01:31:22 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 06, 2017, 07:00:32 AM
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on January 05, 2017, 10:25:30 PM
Quote from: SpeculativeEffort on January 05, 2017, 09:20:12 PM
The attitude of Div 3 and 4 players towards a tiered competition merely shows their lack of ambition for all to see. Instead of earning the right to compete with the best they want it guaranteed to them, no matter how bad they are. They also forget that even if they begin in tier 3, they are only 2 years away from the top level as they can work hard, measure progress and work their way up. At the moment they are light years away and only codding themselves.

Are you sure Gaelic Football is the sport for you???
If a player is deemed good enough to make a county panel and is willing to put in the 5-7 training sessions throughout the season,including recovery sessions required to represent their county, that earns them the right to match up against the best,no matter  how good or bad their team is.
Division 3 and 4 National League teams have every much a right to partake in the All Ireland championship as the likes of Dublin or Kerry.

So we continue with the system we have where club football is put on hold while there are 2 or 3 months of completely meaningless matches up to the start of august when th real competition starts. A competition where the likes of carlow, leitrim, waterford could be drawn against dublin, mayo, kerry is just a ridiculous situation. There's a complete apathy there among a lot of players of teams outside the top 6 or 8 teams and also an even bigger apathy among supporters in general. The influential managers of the top teams will continue to say that there is nothing wrong with the system but they are failing to see the problems at lower level teams.

You talk about general apathy among alot of teams outside the top 6 or 8 and an even bigger apathy among supporters. If you think that is bad,imagine the apathy if all the players had to look forward to was a Tommy Murphy cup game with a fellow Division 3/4 team in May, in front of 800/1,000 spectators. I know a few years ago before this resurgence,Cavan were atrocious and were literally only saved from going down to Division 4 for the first time ever by scoring difference and were beaten by Cork by 20 plus points in the championship. The players on the panel that i know,knew results wouldn't be great,but still put in the hard work knowing because they still looked forward to their day in the sun in Breffni in front of 15,000 for the Ulster Championship or maybe a qualifier with an Ulster county or one of the big boys in front of a large attendance.

I completely understand where yourself and Jinxy are coming from when you say this by the way so i'm not rubbishing your views, and i know in a perfect world, the grading like we have in club football which is what you  are suggesting would probably be the right way to go,but because we have the tradition of everyone bar Kilkenny competing in the same championship,no matter how bad they are,any shift away from that would probably cause serious  problems with those counties at the lower ends of the spectrum in terms of player participation. It would be a disaster in my opinion.

I'm not talking about a Tommy Murphy cup for weak teams who get knocked out of the championship. And I'm not just thinking of division 4 teams. I'm thinking of a proper intermediate and junior championship for teams in division 2,3 and 4.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: BallyhaiseMan on January 06, 2017, 01:48:10 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 06, 2017, 01:41:07 PM
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on January 06, 2017, 01:31:22 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 06, 2017, 07:00:32 AM
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on January 05, 2017, 10:25:30 PM
Quote from: SpeculativeEffort on January 05, 2017, 09:20:12 PM
The attitude of Div 3 and 4 players towards a tiered competition merely shows their lack of ambition for all to see. Instead of earning the right to compete with the best they want it guaranteed to them, no matter how bad they are. They also forget that even if they begin in tier 3, they are only 2 years away from the top level as they can work hard, measure progress and work their way up. At the moment they are light years away and only codding themselves.

Are you sure Gaelic Football is the sport for you???
If a player is deemed good enough to make a county panel and is willing to put in the 5-7 training sessions throughout the season,including recovery sessions required to represent their county, that earns them the right to match up against the best,no matter  how good or bad their team is.
Division 3 and 4 National League teams have every much a right to partake in the All Ireland championship as the likes of Dublin or Kerry.

So we continue with the system we have where club football is put on hold while there are 2 or 3 months of completely meaningless matches up to the start of august when th real competition starts. A competition where the likes of carlow, leitrim, waterford could be drawn against dublin, mayo, kerry is just a ridiculous situation. There's a complete apathy there among a lot of players of teams outside the top 6 or 8 teams and also an even bigger apathy among supporters in general. The influential managers of the top teams will continue to say that there is nothing wrong with the system but they are failing to see the problems at lower level teams.

You talk about general apathy among alot of teams outside the top 6 or 8 and an even bigger apathy among supporters. If you think that is bad,imagine the apathy if all the players had to look forward to was a Tommy Murphy cup game with a fellow Division 3/4 team in May, in front of 800/1,000 spectators. I know a few years ago before this resurgence,Cavan were atrocious and were literally only saved from going down to Division 4 for the first time ever by scoring difference and were beaten by Cork by 20 plus points in the championship. The players on the panel that i know,knew results wouldn't be great,but still put in the hard work knowing because they still looked forward to their day in the sun in Breffni in front of 15,000 for the Ulster Championship or maybe a qualifier with an Ulster county or one of the big boys in front of a large attendance.

I completely understand where yourself and Jinxy are coming from when you say this by the way so i'm not rubbishing your views, and i know in a perfect world, the grading like we have in club football which is what you  are suggesting would probably be the right way to go,but because we have the tradition of everyone bar Kilkenny competing in the same championship,no matter how bad they are,any shift away from that would probably cause serious  problems with those counties at the lower ends of the spectrum in terms of player participation. It would be a disaster in my opinion.

I'm not talking about a Tommy Murphy cup for weak teams who get knocked out of the championship. And I'm not just thinking of division 4 teams. I'm thinking of a proper intermediate and junior championship for teams in division 2,3 and 4.

I know you're not talking about a Tommy Murphy Cup.

Senior-Sam Maguire
Intermediate-Tier 2
Junior- Tier 3

Unfortunately,teams and players outside the top tier wont be interested,I'm open to correct but haven't the GPA already stated that their membership aren't interested in graded competitions for Senior Inter county football. I honestly don't think supporters of counties in Tier 2 and Tier 3 competitions would have much interest either. Whatever sense it makes and i do agree it does make alot of sense,i think it's a complete no-goer.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 02:00:54 PM
Also, re player and spectator apathy within a tiered system, I genuinely believe that if you gave everyone competitive, regular games during the spring/summer months you'd generate plenty of interest.
Again, the devil would be in the detail and I'm sure there would be issues regarding how this structure would dovetail with the club season AND the inter-county hurling season.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: lenny on January 06, 2017, 02:12:37 PM
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on January 06, 2017, 01:48:10 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 06, 2017, 01:41:07 PM
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on January 06, 2017, 01:31:22 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 06, 2017, 07:00:32 AM
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on January 05, 2017, 10:25:30 PM
Quote from: SpeculativeEffort on January 05, 2017, 09:20:12 PM
The attitude of Div 3 and 4 players towards a tiered competition merely shows their lack of ambition for all to see. Instead of earning the right to compete with the best they want it guaranteed to them, no matter how bad they are. They also forget that even if they begin in tier 3, they are only 2 years away from the top level as they can work hard, measure progress and work their way up. At the moment they are light years away and only codding themselves.

Are you sure Gaelic Football is the sport for you???
If a player is deemed good enough to make a county panel and is willing to put in the 5-7 training sessions throughout the season,including recovery sessions required to represent their county, that earns them the right to match up against the best,no matter  how good or bad their team is.
Division 3 and 4 National League teams have every much a right to partake in the All Ireland championship as the likes of Dublin or Kerry.

So we continue with the system we have where club football is put on hold while there are 2 or 3 months of completely meaningless matches up to the start of august when th real competition starts. A competition where the likes of carlow, leitrim, waterford could be drawn against dublin, mayo, kerry is just a ridiculous situation. There's a complete apathy there among a lot of players of teams outside the top 6 or 8 teams and also an even bigger apathy among supporters in general. The influential managers of the top teams will continue to say that there is nothing wrong with the system but they are failing to see the problems at lower level teams.

You talk about general apathy among alot of teams outside the top 6 or 8 and an even bigger apathy among supporters. If you think that is bad,imagine the apathy if all the players had to look forward to was a Tommy Murphy cup game with a fellow Division 3/4 team in May, in front of 800/1,000 spectators. I know a few years ago before this resurgence,Cavan were atrocious and were literally only saved from going down to Division 4 for the first time ever by scoring difference and were beaten by Cork by 20 plus points in the championship. The players on the panel that i know,knew results wouldn't be great,but still put in the hard work knowing because they still looked forward to their day in the sun in Breffni in front of 15,000 for the Ulster Championship or maybe a qualifier with an Ulster county or one of the big boys in front of a large attendance.

I completely understand where yourself and Jinxy are coming from when you say this by the way so i'm not rubbishing your views, and i know in a perfect world, the grading like we have in club football which is what you  are suggesting would probably be the right way to go,but because we have the tradition of everyone bar Kilkenny competing in the same championship,no matter how bad they are,any shift away from that would probably cause serious  problems with those counties at the lower ends of the spectrum in terms of player participation. It would be a disaster in my opinion.

I'm not talking about a Tommy Murphy cup for weak teams who get knocked out of the championship. And I'm not just thinking of division 4 teams. I'm thinking of a proper intermediate and junior championship for teams in division 2,3 and 4.

I know you're not talking about a Tommy Murphy Cup.

Senior-Sam Maguire
Intermediate-Tier 2
Junior- Tier 3

Unfortunately,teams and players outside the top tier wont be interested,I'm open to correct but haven't the GPA already stated that their membership aren't interested in graded competitions for Senior Inter county football. I honestly don't think supporters of counties in Tier 2 and Tier 3 competitions would have much interest either. Whatever sense it makes and i do agree it does make alot of sense,i think it's a complete no-goer.

People keep saying that the attraction of the current system to players is the prospect of the sunny day in may/june playing in front of 15.000 people. Crowds are dwindling though and if derry were drawn v Fermanagh or antrim in the first round of the championship there would be a good few less than 10,000 at it. On the other hand if derry had an all ireland intermediate quarter or semi final v meath/galway/down/Armagh I could imagine a crowd of at least 15k-20k easily. Simply because it would be a meaningful competition which we had a chance of winning and the prospect of moving up a level to senior for the following year. Waterford v limerick in a football championship wouldn't draw a big crowd at the moment so it's not fair for people to keep saying there's no pint changing the system because teams like that wouldn't draw a crowd. It's the middle band of teams in particular who have the most to gain from a change to the system but the really weak teams have the prospect of progressing also.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: thewobbler on January 06, 2017, 02:19:23 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 02:00:54 PM
Also, re player and spectator apathy within a tiered system, I genuinely believe that if you gave everyone competitive, regular games during the spring/summer months you'd generate plenty of interest.
Again, the devil would be in the detail and I'm sure there would be issues regarding how this structure would dovetail with the club season AND the inter-county hurling season.

good man.

I suppose the only question I have left for you to answer surrounds your long term vision to rewire GAA culture. just how many years of 26 people turning up to watch an experimental Leitrim side get slapped by an Antrim B side would you need, before you might accept that its not working?

This might sound pious and tetchy, but I'm genuinely curious. I can think of dozens of successfully relaunched competitions at the highest level across all sorts of sports. But I can't think of any for lower levels of sport, with the underlying reason being that they don't capture the imagination.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: thewobbler on January 06, 2017, 02:23:40 PM
Lenny you really need to gain a bit of balance.

Don't compare a worst case scenario in the current championship with the ideal scenario in your version.

Compare the middle.

Which is Down v Derry in both versions.

If you honestly believe that an intermediate championship match will attract more supporters than a senior championship match, then your head is so far wedged under a stone that you can no longer see a grain of light.

Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 02:28:30 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on January 06, 2017, 02:19:23 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 02:00:54 PM
Also, re player and spectator apathy within a tiered system, I genuinely believe that if you gave everyone competitive, regular games during the spring/summer months you'd generate plenty of interest.
Again, the devil would be in the detail and I'm sure there would be issues regarding how this structure would dovetail with the club season AND the inter-county hurling season.

good man.

I suppose the only question I have left for you to answer surrounds your long term vision to rewire GAA culture. just how many years of 26 people turning up to watch an experimental Leitrim side get slapped by an Antrim B side would you need, before you might accept that its not working?

This might sound pious and tetchy, but I'm genuinely curious. I can think of dozens of successfully relaunched competitions at the highest level across all sorts of sports. But I can't think of any for lower levels of sport, with the underlying reason being that they don't capture the imagination.

No, the underlying reason is they already have an appropriate grading system in place.
I did a quick scan of Leitrim's results in the league and to the best of my knowledge they won two games and lost five.
Three of the games they lost only by a point.
That's the very definition of competitive football.
Sure, they'll still get the odd tanking but that happens every now and again at every grade in every sport.
Bear in mind there will still be a provincial championship where they get to play the likes of Galway or Mayo.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: lenny on January 06, 2017, 02:31:38 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on January 06, 2017, 02:23:40 PM
Lenny you really need to gain a bit of balance.

Don't compare a worst case scenario in the current championship with the ideal scenario in your version.

Compare the middle.

Which is Down v Derry in both versions.

If you honestly believe that an intermediate championship match will attract more supporters than a senior championship match, then your head is so far wedged under a stone that you can no longer see a grain of light.

Derry v down at the moment is completely meaningless in an all Ireland context. It has no attraction for me. If however we met in a quarter final of an all Ireland intermediate championship it would be compelling viewing.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Esmarelda on January 06, 2017, 02:34:24 PM
With regards to the suggestion of a Senior, Intermediate and Junior Championship as seen in club football, could we look at what this might entail?

I presume we'd have roughly the same number in each so say eleven counties in each.

Based on current league standings we would end up with Cavan competing with Dublin, Mayo and Kerry. How would this benefit Cavan?

Intermediate wouldn't be too bad but in Junior we'd have New York and London competing with Westmeath and Louth. How would this benefit them?

Again, who is that we're trying to benefit from such a re-jig?
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 02:41:04 PM
New York wouldn't be in it.
Anyway, like I said before you'd ideally have a honeymoon period (say 3 years?) where counties would know that their championship status would be based on their league standing in year 3.
If you're still hanging around the arse end of division 3/4 by then, I guess that's your level.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 02:52:14 PM
Kieran Martin: 'We need to get out of Division Four'

"We're going to push hard to get out of Division 4 and, if we do, we do...but look, it's not the end of the world."

http://www.gaa.ie/football/news/kieran-martin-need-get-out-division-four/ (http://www.gaa.ie/football/news/kieran-martin-need-get-out-division-four/)

It'll be the end of the world if I get my way!
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Lone Shark on January 06, 2017, 03:51:07 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 02:28:30 PM
......
Bear in mind there will still be a provincial championship where they get to play the likes of Galway or Mayo.

This is the thing though - there will be a championship, but it won't matter to Mayo and Galway, and consequently, when the day comes that the upset happens, it won't mean as much - and Leitrim people will know that. It'll be feck all different to beating them in the FBD league. Right now, the provincial championships are part of the main event, the All Ireland series. If you break that link, it's a matter of time bfore they become preseason efforts that don't matter - just the same as what happened with the provincial cups in rugby and soccer.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 06, 2017, 03:58:39 PM
Local pride and all that plus you seed the Provincial winners.
Anyway as of now the Provincials are only a big deal for someone who hasn't won in a while e.g Monaghan 2013 or Galway 2016.
I doubt Mayowestros were too upset at not winning Connacht last year especially around the time they were preparing for the AI Final.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: AZOffaly on January 06, 2017, 04:01:16 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 06, 2017, 03:58:39 PM
Local pride and all that plus you seed the Provincial winners.
Anyway as of now the Provincials are only a big deal for someone who hasn't won in a while e.g Monaghan 2013 or Galway 2016.
I doubt Mayowestros were too upset at not winning Connacht last year especially around the time they were preparing for the AI Final.

There are only about 3 or 4 counties for whom a provincial title would not be a big deal. Dublin, Mayo, Kerry are the ones off the top of my head. There are at least 10 other counties that might realistically hope to win a provincial, and it would be a big deal for each of them.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Zulu on January 06, 2017, 04:17:46 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 06, 2017, 03:51:07 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 02:28:30 PM
......
Bear in mind there will still be a provincial championship where they get to play the likes of Galway or Mayo.

This is the thing though - there will be a championship, but it won't matter to Mayo and Galway, and consequently, when the day comes that the upset happens, it won't mean as much - and Leitrim people will know that. It'll be feck all different to beating them in the FBD league. Right now, the provincial championships are part of the main event, the All Ireland series. If you break that link, it's a matter of time bfore they become preseason efforts that don't matter - just the same as what happened with the provincial cups in rugby and soccer.

So you want to keep the provincials even though you accept as stand alone competitions they aren't valued by the bigger teams? I'd get rid of the provincials tomorrow but I can see the argument for retaining them as a more realistic goal for the likes of Tipp, Monaghan, Meath etc. However, they are the biggest problem in the season as they are fundamentally 4 uneven groups of teams with wildly different standards. Keep them if you like but to have them central to the championship structure means we will never have a workable format.

They're dying anyway as the big teams will take or leave them, the next level would live one or two but then want to go to the next level and the rest will only win one once in a blue moon, if even that.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Lone Shark on January 06, 2017, 04:34:48 PM
Quote from: Zulu on January 06, 2017, 04:17:46 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 06, 2017, 03:51:07 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 02:28:30 PM
......
Bear in mind there will still be a provincial championship where they get to play the likes of Galway or Mayo.

This is the thing though - there will be a championship, but it won't matter to Mayo and Galway, and consequently, when the day comes that the upset happens, it won't mean as much - and Leitrim people will know that. It'll be feck all different to beating them in the FBD league. Right now, the provincial championships are part of the main event, the All Ireland series. If you break that link, it's a matter of time bfore they become preseason efforts that don't matter - just the same as what happened with the provincial cups in rugby and soccer.

So you want to keep the provincials even though you accept as stand alone competitions they aren't valued by the bigger teams? I'd get rid of the provincials tomorrow but I can see the argument for retaining them as a more realistic goal for the likes of Tipp, Monaghan, Meath etc. However, they are the biggest problem in the season as they are fundamentally 4 uneven groups of teams with wildly different standards. Keep them if you like but to have them central to the championship structure means we will never have a workable format.

They're dying anyway as the big teams will take or leave them, the next level would live one or two but then want to go to the next level and the rest will only win one once in a blue moon, if even that.

No, I don't accept that at all. Winning a provincial title is a big deal for 90% of the counties out there, and even for the other three or four, the games are still taken seriously because it's the easiest route through the All Ireland series. Mayo might have reached the All Ireland final this year but they were clearly vulnerable when they played Fermanagh back in early July, and could easily have been booted out if they got a tougher, away draw and didn't raise their game a bit. Provincial games are full blooded occasions now, and that's as it should be - but that won't last if you make them stand alone competitions.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 06, 2017, 04:48:45 PM
Some awful gloomy predictions altogether :-\
Why do we need Provincial Councils any more?
Surely a small Committee of 1 Rep from each County could with the usual volunteers/ stewards run the Championships.
As for giving out grants etc I suspect that could easily be done from Croke Park.
The whole Provincial structure comes from the horse and cart and communication by letter era.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 04:53:56 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 06, 2017, 04:34:48 PM
Quote from: Zulu on January 06, 2017, 04:17:46 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 06, 2017, 03:51:07 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 02:28:30 PM
......
Bear in mind there will still be a provincial championship where they get to play the likes of Galway or Mayo.

This is the thing though - there will be a championship, but it won't matter to Mayo and Galway, and consequently, when the day comes that the upset happens, it won't mean as much - and Leitrim people will know that. It'll be feck all different to beating them in the FBD league. Right now, the provincial championships are part of the main event, the All Ireland series. If you break that link, it's a matter of time bfore they become preseason efforts that don't matter - just the same as what happened with the provincial cups in rugby and soccer.

So you want to keep the provincials even though you accept as stand alone competitions they aren't valued by the bigger teams? I'd get rid of the provincials tomorrow but I can see the argument for retaining them as a more realistic goal for the likes of Tipp, Monaghan, Meath etc. However, they are the biggest problem in the season as they are fundamentally 4 uneven groups of teams with wildly different standards. Keep them if you like but to have them central to the championship structure means we will never have a workable format.

They're dying anyway as the big teams will take or leave them, the next level would live one or two but then want to go to the next level and the rest will only win one once in a blue moon, if even that.

No, I don't accept that at all. Winning a provincial title is a big deal for 90% of the counties out there, and even for the other three or four, the games are still taken seriously because it's the easiest route through the All Ireland series. Mayo might have reached the All Ireland final this year but they were clearly vulnerable when they played Fermanagh back in early July, and could easily have been booted out if they got a tougher, away draw and didn't raise their game a bit. Provincial games are full blooded occasions now, and that's as it should be - but that won't last if you make them stand alone competitions.

I'm not so sure about this since the qualifiers were brought in.
Anyway, lets say the bigger teams become less interested in winning a provincial championship that is secondary to a tiered structure.
Surely that's good for the weaker teams as it increases their chances of taking a scalp and maybe even winning some silverware.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Zulu on January 06, 2017, 05:49:54 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 04:53:56 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 06, 2017, 04:34:48 PM
Quote from: Zulu on January 06, 2017, 04:17:46 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 06, 2017, 03:51:07 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 02:28:30 PM
......
Bear in mind there will still be a provincial championship where they get to play the likes of Galway or Mayo.

This is the thing though - there will be a championship, but it won't matter to Mayo and Galway, and consequently, when the day comes that the upset happens, it won't mean as much - and Leitrim people will know that. It'll be feck all different to beating them in the FBD league. Right now, the provincial championships are part of the main event, the All Ireland series. If you break that link, it's a matter of time bfore they become preseason efforts that don't matter - just the same as what happened with the provincial cups in rugby and soccer.

So you want to keep the provincials even though you accept as stand alone competitions they aren't valued by the bigger teams? I'd get rid of the provincials tomorrow but I can see the argument for retaining them as a more realistic goal for the likes of Tipp, Monaghan, Meath etc. However, they are the biggest problem in the season as they are fundamentally 4 uneven groups of teams with wildly different standards. Keep them if you like but to have them central to the championship structure means we will never have a workable format.

They're dying anyway as the big teams will take or leave them, the next level would live one or two but then want to go to the next level and the rest will only win one once in a blue moon, if even that.

No, I don't accept that at all. Winning a provincial title is a big deal for 90% of the counties out there, and even for the other three or four, the games are still taken seriously because it's the easiest route through the All Ireland series. Mayo might have reached the All Ireland final this year but they were clearly vulnerable when they played Fermanagh back in early July, and could easily have been booted out if they got a tougher, away draw and didn't raise their game a bit. Provincial games are full blooded occasions now, and that's as it should be - but that won't last if you make them stand alone competitions.

I'm not so sure about this since the qualifiers were brought in.
Anyway, lets say the bigger teams become less interested in winning a provincial championship that is secondary to a tiered structure.
Surely that's good for the weaker teams as it increases their chances of taking a scalp and maybe even winning some silverware.

But the provincials are not even close to being full blooded anymore. The Munster hurling championship, the one held up the most, has been awful with small crowds for a good few years now.

If the provincials need to be linked to the All Ireland to retain interest then it's logical to suggest they have no intrinsic value themselves. Play them as stand alone competitions if you like but I can't see how anyone can know the problems we have (club and county level) and still argue for the provincials as a core element of the championship.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: J70 on January 06, 2017, 06:16:27 PM
Interesting discussion.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: lenny on January 06, 2017, 06:35:13 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on January 06, 2017, 02:34:24 PM
With regards to the suggestion of a Senior, Intermediate and Junior Championship as seen in club football, could we look at what this might entail?

I presume we'd have roughly the same number in each so say eleven counties in each.

Based on current league standings we would end up with Cavan competing with Dublin, Mayo and Kerry. How would this benefit Cavan?

Intermediate wouldn't be too bad but in Junior we'd have New York and London competing with Westmeath and Louth. How would this benefit them?

Again, who is that we're trying to benefit from such a re-jig?

I would favour 8 senior, 12 intermediate and 12 junior. There are realistically only 7 or 8 teams at the top level. That would leave a good championship at each grade with every team capable of winning at their level.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Syferus on January 06, 2017, 06:51:53 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 06, 2017, 04:48:45 PM
Some awful gloomy predictions altogether :-\
Why do we need Provincial Councils any more?
Surely a small Committee of 1 Rep from each County could with the usual volunteers/ stewards run the Championships.
As for giving out grants etc I suspect that could easily be done from Croke Park.
The whole Provincial structure comes from the horse and cart and communication by letter era.

That'd make too much sense, so it won't be done.

Just like fixing demands on players, the incredible monetary advantages of some counties and how spread out the schedule is won't be done because all people want to talk about is catch-all solutions that only change the order or type of games being played.

Not seeing the forest for the trees springs to mind.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 06, 2017, 07:29:00 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 06, 2017, 06:35:13 PM


I presume we'd have roughly the same number in each so say eleven counties

I would favour 8 senior, 12 intermediate and 12 junior. There are realistically only 7 or 8 teams at the top level. That would leave a good championship at each grade with every team capable of winning at their level.

12, 12 and 8.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on January 06, 2017, 07:43:06 PM
Condensing the season and not having crossover between club and county as much as possible would alleviate this.

For the majority of players there is little end, it's start with county in Dec/January and then finish with club sometime around Oct on average I would imagine with serious dedication and no free time in it. It's an exhausting cycle I'm sure.

The tiered Championship talk is all very good but as mentioned, there's no appetite for it.

Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 08:07:17 PM
What is there appetite for?
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: lenny on January 06, 2017, 08:10:36 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 06, 2017, 07:43:06 PM
Condensing the season and not having crossover between club and county as much as possible would alleviate this.

For the majority of players there is little end, it's start with county in Dec/January and then finish with club sometime around Oct on average I would imagine with serious dedication and no free time in it. It's an exhausting cycle I'm sure.

The tiered Championship talk is all very good but as mentioned, there's no appetite for it.

There's no appetite for it because noone has talked publicly about a 3 tier system like at club level. It's amazing it hasn't been discussed publicly. When people talk about it they immediately think of the tommy murphy cup which wasn't a championship but a cup for the very weakest  teams who were beaten in the first round of the "real" championship.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Il Bomber Destro on January 06, 2017, 08:58:34 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 06, 2017, 08:10:36 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 06, 2017, 07:43:06 PM
Condensing the season and not having crossover between club and county as much as possible would alleviate this.

For the majority of players there is little end, it's start with county in Dec/January and then finish with club sometime around Oct on average I would imagine with serious dedication and no free time in it. It's an exhausting cycle I'm sure.

The tiered Championship talk is all very good but as mentioned, there's no appetite for it.

There's no appetite for it because noone has talked publicly about a 3 tier system like at club level. It's amazing it hasn't been discussed publicly. When people talk about it they immediately think of the tommy murphy cup which wasn't a championship but a cup for the very weakest  teams who were beaten in the first round of the "real" championship.

There has been plenty of talk about it.

The players in the smaller counties have been quite vocal about not wanting to partake in it.

Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 06, 2017, 09:02:27 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 08:07:17 PM
What is there appetite for?
Not much public appetite for the  "one for everyone in the audience" Qualifiers last year.. Only for Mayowestros..... Rounds 1,2 and 3  attracted circa 44,000 for 19 games if you exclude the 2 Rhubarb games. Their 2 attracted 26,568.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Kuwabatake Sanjuro on January 06, 2017, 09:22:30 PM
I'm friends with an ex Westmeath hurler, he reckons the Christy Ring cup held them back a long way as it was far more difficult to get all their players willing to commit to a mickey mouse competition. He hated it with a passion. Getting out of it has brought them on a fair bit.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Bord na Mona man on January 06, 2017, 10:10:35 PM
If you're going to have tiers, then you should still reserve a wild card the top tier quarter final for whoever has come through the lower tiers. Otherwise you aren't going to incentivise the counties banished out of All Ireland contention.

Some good points have been made in the debate. As has been alluded to, we need to further question the agenda of those who want to push the lower ranked counties out the door. A lot of journos and pundits want more of the big occasion games of the All Ireland series and to spend less time holding their noses watching the lower division counties.

Unfortunately I feel this is another sympton of the condescending culture that has become commonplace in GAA analysis. The efforts of the lower counties get ridiculed far too easily and often. Some of the 'apathy' comes from the sneering and dismissive way the games are analysed these days. If you keep telling the punters what they are witnessing is dirge, you'll plant the seeds and they'll start to vote with their feet.

Counties can and do make the jump under the current structure. It wasn't many years ago when Kevin McStay did a Sunday Game montage of Tipperary mistakes when they shipped a beating off Cork. He concluded that they have no business in the championship and should be shipped out to a B championship. In his defence, he isn't in the same league and Brolly, Spillane and O'Rourke for toxic analysis.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Jinxy on January 06, 2017, 10:20:36 PM
Quote from: Kuwabatake Sanjuro on January 06, 2017, 09:22:30 PM
I'm friends with an ex Westmeath hurler, he reckons the Christy Ring cup held them back a long way as it was far more difficult to get all their players willing to commit to a mickey mouse competition. He hated it with a passion. Getting out of it has brought them on a fair bit.

In the early years the Christy Ring cup was all over the place though.
Some years there was no promotion or relegation so it didn't make any difference how you did.
I could see how that would lead to apathy alright.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Lone Shark on January 06, 2017, 11:16:12 PM
Quote from: Zulu on January 06, 2017, 05:49:54 PM
If the provincials need to be linked to the All Ireland to retain interest then it's logical to suggest they have no intrinsic value themselves. Play them as stand alone competitions if you like but I can't see how anyone can know the problems we have (club and county level) and still argue for the provincials as a core element of the championship.

Yes and no on this. The provincials need to be linked to the All Ireland in order for Dublin, Kerry and Mayo to retain an interest, and to a lesser extent Cork, Tyrone, Donegal etc. The division three and division four counties don't need the provincials to be linked to the All Ireland at all, but they do need to know that a provincial title still has value, and that it won't be diminished as something that has fractionally more prestige than the O'Byrne Cup. Galway were delighted to win their provincial title this year, but they were delighted because their win over Mayo was a genuine one, not a preseason style game.

I promise you, counties like Offaly still dream of Leinster titles, and that motivates them to go through all the hardship. Of course there is a massive gap to be bridged with Dublin (F) and Kilkenny (H) at the top of the tree, but they want to take that chance. Would they still be as motivated if they knew that Dublin and Kilkenny weren't going to be focused on winning it? Not at all.

Quote from: Rossfan on January 06, 2017, 07:29:00 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 06, 2017, 06:35:13 PM


I presume we'd have roughly the same number in each so say eleven counties

I would favour 8 senior, 12 intermediate and 12 junior. There are realistically only 7 or 8 teams at the top level. That would leave a good championship at each grade with every team capable of winning at their level.

12, 12 and 8.

In the space of just 13 characters, Rossfan has summed up the attitude to the lower tier competitions perfectly. Everyone thinks that they're a great idea FOR OTHER COUNTIES - but not for them. Right now, Roscommon are a division one county on 2016 league form, and a D2/D3 county on championship form. Overall, if it was 12 teams, they'd be in the top tier certainly, but at 8, it'd be touch and go - so a Roscommon fan thinks it should be 12.

I'm betting that if you asked someone from Tyrone or Donegal, they'd say eight in the top tier. Somebody from Meath or Kildare would say 16. Everyone would draw the line just underneath themselves.

This brings me back to my previous point - when players and officials from counties that would actually have to play in these competitions call for them, I'll respect them - but I haven't seen one instance of that yet, while the body of players as a whole (through the GPA) made it clear that they didn't want such a structure at all. Yet everyone says that it's these counties that we're doing this for.

Colour me sceptical.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 06, 2017, 11:26:58 PM
Please don't presume to read my mind thanks very much. Maybe some of us are thinking what's best for Gaelic football.Just make your points for/against things without impugning the motives of posters here. How dare you!!
By the time Senior/Inter/Junior comes around we will be lucky (Demographics etc) to make the Junior grade.
In 25 years time there will be 1.5m people in Dublin and probably 800k in Kildare/Meath/Wicklow.
Are present Administrative structures and Competition structures suitable for this forthcoming lopsided population?
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 06, 2017, 11:53:56 PM
Quote from: Syferus on January 06, 2017, 06:51:53 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 06, 2017, 04:48:45 PM
Some awful gloomy predictions altogether :-\
Why do we need Provincial Councils any more?
Surely a small Committee of 1 Rep from each County could with the usual volunteers/ stewards run the Championships.
As for giving out grants etc I suspect that could easily be done from Croke Park.
The whole Provincial structure comes from the horse and cart and communication by letter era.

That'd make too much sense, so it won't be done.

Just like fixing demands on players, the incredible monetary advantages of some counties and how spread out the schedule is won't be done because all people want to talk about is catch-all solutions that only change the order or type of games being played.

Not seeing the forest for the trees springs to mind.
Good man Syf, yer back to yer best again!  ;D
Fielding intercounty teams is an incredibly expensive process any more- for those with any realistic hopes of winning an All Ireland .
Delegates at the Mayo convention meeting before Christmas were told that it cost €1.6m to field representative teams in 2016.
I know this year wasn't a typical one with the senior going all the way to a final replay and the u21s winning their final. Ladies teams, minors etc. have also to be taken into account but €1.6m but for a county with a falling population and severely affected by rural depopulation, is a huge outlay that can't be sustained year after year and the major portion was spent on the senior side.
But I think it's fair to assume that the major part of that expense was incurred by the senior side.
Dublin is the trendsetter here, with a small hard core of counties struggling to stay in touch. The application of Professionalism and Science to training and playing methods means that counties without deep pockets can forget about winning a provincial, let alone an All Ireland.
Dublin are professional in every way except the players are amateurs and the same can be said to a limited extent for Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone and a few others. It came out somewhere in discussions on this board last year that Mayo had a total of 34 backroom staff and I can only assume that Dublin have more and Kerry, Tyrone etc. will have much the same.
With those sort of overheads, most counties, with Dublin being the sole exception, can expect to remain competitive for more than a few years at a time as the demands on players is increasing all the time,
They are professionals in every way -except they don't get paid for their labours.
Moreover, it seems that every county, with realistic hopes of winning an All Ireland or not, have ramped up their training and general preparation regimes.
I think it's perfectly understandable that players in so-called 'weaker' counties are required to devote so much time and energy to an intercounty programme that will see many of them playing only two championship matches every year.
I don't see any easy solution; in fact, I see none at all.
Vested interests will see to it that the present format remains in place. Kerry and Cork, Galway vs. Mayo and what used to be one hell of a cracker was the annual derby clash between Dublin and Meath are fixtures ingrained in the counties' pysches and won't be easily altered.
I can't see Dublin split in any way either even though the need to do so is obvious. For every county that wants radical change to the present format, there is at least one other who wants nothing of the sort.
I can't see the Leinster championship being neither entertaining nor profitable this year as it's at least 95% certain that Dublin will amble through the province once more and I can't imagine that there will be serious opposition to Kerry in Munster.
These were the traditional strongholds of the GAA down the years and there is any air of inevitability about the result in both. Probably, there is no reason to suppose that Mayo won't be as bad as they were against Galway last year and that's leave only Ulster as the one province where there will be a competitive championship this year.
It's time to be afraid; very afraid.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Lone Shark on January 07, 2017, 12:30:54 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 06, 2017, 11:26:58 PM
Please don't presume to read my mind thanks very much. Maybe some of us are thinking what's best for Gaelic football.Just make your points for/against things without impugning the motives of posters here. How dare you!!
By the time Senior/Inter/Junior comes around we will be lucky (Demographics etc) to make the Junior grade.
In 25 years time there will be 1.5m people in Dublin and probably 800k in Kildare/Meath/Wicklow.
Are present Administrative structures and Competition structures suitable for this forthcoming lopsided population?

Okay, I'll bite. For footballing reasons, why is 12/12/8 superior to 8/12/12, when ostensibly, the latter would appear to create more competitive competitions for all? Realistically, outside of KY/TYR/MO/DL and at a real, real push, Cork & Galway, there is no-one else that would be shorter than 10/1 to beat Dublin in a one off game. Certainly it'd probably be a more lopsided fixture than Leitrim/Waterford/Antrim against Armagh or Clare, who'd be the type of teams that would be inter under 12/12/8 but junior under 8/8/12.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 07, 2017, 12:50:00 AM
Shark you're away on 2016/17 terms and making a case for only 6 Senior teams.
Think broad and long term.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Lone Shark on January 07, 2017, 03:21:05 AM
I am thinking long term. In the long term, the last time the Sam Maguire was won by any county that would have been deemed to be outside the top 6 at the start of that particular year would have been back in the early 1990's, when there was great parity and anyone of four or five Ulster Counties would have been capable, alongside Dublin, Kerry, Cork, and even Mayo (at a push). Before that, you probably have to go back to Offaly in 1971. Even then, all of those counties would have been comfortably inside the top ten in May of the relevant years.

Counties ranked 10/11/12 at the start of the year don't win the big prize, ever. They just don't do it. They come close occasionally (Down 2010, Galway 1983 come to mind) but they don't win. 
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: seafoid on January 07, 2017, 09:00:48 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 07, 2017, 03:21:05 AM
I am thinking long term. In the long term, the last time the Sam Maguire was won by any county that would have been deemed to be outside the top 6 at the start of that particular year would have been back in the early 1990's, when there was great parity and anyone of four or five Ulster Counties would have been capable, alongside Dublin, Kerry, Cork, and even Mayo (at a push). Before that, you probably have to go back to Offaly in 1971. Even then, all of those counties would have been comfortably inside the top ten in May of the relevant years.

Counties ranked 10/11/12 at the start of the year don't win the big prize, ever. They just don't do it. They come close occasionally (Down 2010, Galway 1983 come to mind) but they don't win.
What about Armagh in 2002 ? They were fairly mediocre in 2001
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Fuzzman on January 07, 2017, 11:20:46 AM
I see Donegal might be without MacNeillis and Thompson this year. Cavan are missing a load from last year as are Derry. Players seem to be a lot happier making their own life choices recently and taking time out as they know it's a huge commitment now.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 07, 2017, 11:37:10 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 07, 2017, 09:00:48 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 07, 2017, 03:21:05 AM
I am thinking long term. In the long term, the last time the Sam Maguire was won by any county that would have been deemed to be outside the top 6 at the start of that particular year would have been back in the early 1990's, when there was great parity and anyone of four or five Ulster Counties would have been capable, alongside Dublin, Kerry, Cork, and even Mayo (at a push). Before that, you probably have to go back to Offaly in 1971. Even then, all of those counties would have been comfortably inside the top ten in May of the relevant years.

Counties ranked 10/11/12 at the start of the year don't win the big prize, ever. They just don't do it. They come close occasionally (Down 2010, Galway 1983 come to mind) but they don't win.
What about Armagh in 2002 ? They were fairly mediocre in 2001
They ran Galway to a point in 2001 and had won Ulster in 1999 and 2000 if my memory serves me right.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: seafoid on January 07, 2017, 12:09:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2017, 11:37:10 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 07, 2017, 09:00:48 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 07, 2017, 03:21:05 AM
I am thinking long term. In the long term, the last time the Sam Maguire was won by any county that would have been deemed to be outside the top 6 at the start of that particular year would have been back in the early 1990's, when there was great parity and anyone of four or five Ulster Counties would have been capable, alongside Dublin, Kerry, Cork, and even Mayo (at a push). Before that, you probably have to go back to Offaly in 1971. Even then, all of those counties would have been comfortably inside the top ten in May of the relevant years.

Counties ranked 10/11/12 at the start of the year don't win the big prize, ever. They just don't do it. They come close occasionally (Down 2010, Galway 1983 come to mind) but they don't win.
What about Armagh in 2002 ? They were fairly mediocre in 2001
They ran Galway to a point in 2001 and had won Ulster in 1999 and 2000 if my memory serves me right.
in 2001 Ros were Connacht champions. Kerry and Meath and the Dubs were strong as were Galway and Derry. That is 6.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Lone Shark on January 07, 2017, 12:58:27 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 07, 2017, 12:09:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2017, 11:37:10 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 07, 2017, 09:00:48 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 07, 2017, 03:21:05 AM
I am thinking long term. In the long term, the last time the Sam Maguire was won by any county that would have been deemed to be outside the top 6 at the start of that particular year would have been back in the early 1990's, when there was great parity and anyone of four or five Ulster Counties would have been capable, alongside Dublin, Kerry, Cork, and even Mayo (at a push). Before that, you probably have to go back to Offaly in 1971. Even then, all of those counties would have been comfortably inside the top ten in May of the relevant years.

Counties ranked 10/11/12 at the start of the year don't win the big prize, ever. They just don't do it. They come close occasionally (Down 2010, Galway 1983 come to mind) but they don't win.
What about Armagh in 2002 ? They were fairly mediocre in 2001
They ran Galway to a point in 2001 and had won Ulster in 1999 and 2000 if my memory serves me right.
in 2001 Ros were Connacht champions. Kerry and Meath and the Dubs were strong as were Galway and Derry. That is 6.

I was working in PP at the time. Armagh were fifth in the betting at the start of the year, behind Kerry, Meath, Dublin and Galway. Admittedly there wasn't a lot between them and some of the others behind them, including Tyrone, Derry, Roscommon and Offaly, but they were perceived as a slight cut above that four all the same.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: armaghniac on January 07, 2017, 01:13:31 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 07, 2017, 12:30:54 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 06, 2017, 11:26:58 PM
Please don't presume to read my mind thanks very much. Maybe some of us are thinking what's best for Gaelic football.Just make your points for/against things without impugning the motives of posters here. How dare you!!
By the time Senior/Inter/Junior comes around we will be lucky (Demographics etc) to make the Junior grade.
In 25 years time there will be 1.5m people in Dublin and probably 800k in Kildare/Meath/Wicklow.
Are present Administrative structures and Competition structures suitable for this forthcoming lopsided population?

Okay, I'll bite. For footballing reasons, why is 12/12/8 superior to 8/12/12, when ostensibly, the latter would appear to create more competitive competitions for all? Realistically, outside of KY/TYR/MO/DL and at a real, real push, Cork & Galway, there is no-one else that would be shorter than 10/1 to beat Dublin in a one off game. Certainly it'd probably be a more lopsided fixture than Leitrim/Waterford/Antrim against Armagh or Clare, who'd be the type of teams that would be inter under 12/12/8 but junior under 8/8/12.

It isn't so long ago that Armagh beat Leitrim by a cricket score in Pairc Sean.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Lone Shark on January 09, 2017, 12:51:05 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 07, 2017, 01:13:31 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 07, 2017, 12:30:54 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 06, 2017, 11:26:58 PM
Please don't presume to read my mind thanks very much. Maybe some of us are thinking what's best for Gaelic football.Just make your points for/against things without impugning the motives of posters here. How dare you!!
By the time Senior/Inter/Junior comes around we will be lucky (Demographics etc) to make the Junior grade.
In 25 years time there will be 1.5m people in Dublin and probably 800k in Kildare/Meath/Wicklow.
Are present Administrative structures and Competition structures suitable for this forthcoming lopsided population?

Okay, I'll bite. For footballing reasons, why is 12/12/8 superior to 8/12/12, when ostensibly, the latter would appear to create more competitive competitions for all? Realistically, outside of KY/TYR/MO/DL and at a real, real push, Cork & Galway, there is no-one else that would be shorter than 10/1 to beat Dublin in a one off game. Certainly it'd probably be a more lopsided fixture than Leitrim/Waterford/Antrim against Armagh or Clare, who'd be the type of teams that would be inter under 12/12/8 but junior under 8/8/12.

It isn't so long ago that Armagh beat Leitrim by a cricket score in Pairc Sean.

I remember - I was covering the game, and I got penalty points on the way into the match. The reason I know that it was the summer of 2013 is that those points only finally went off my license a few months ago!

Two things here:

(1) Armagh in 2013 were well ahead of Armagh 2016/2017.
(2) There could be cricket scores at any level, but Dublin beating teams ranked 9-12 by large margins is far more common that teams ranked around 20 giving out hidings to the Leitrims and Waterfords of this world.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: seafoid on January 09, 2017, 07:09:20 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 07, 2017, 12:58:27 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 07, 2017, 12:09:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2017, 11:37:10 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 07, 2017, 09:00:48 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 07, 2017, 03:21:05 AM
I am thinking long term. In the long term, the last time the Sam Maguire was won by any county that would have been deemed to be outside the top 6 at the start of that particular year would have been back in the early 1990's, when there was great parity and anyone of four or five Ulster Counties would have been capable, alongside Dublin, Kerry, Cork, and even Mayo (at a push). Before that, you probably have to go back to Offaly in 1971. Even then, all of those counties would have been comfortably inside the top ten in May of the relevant years.

Counties ranked 10/11/12 at the start of the year don't win the big prize, ever. They just don't do it. They come close occasionally (Down 2010, Galway 1983 come to mind) but they don't win.
What about Armagh in 2002 ? They were fairly mediocre in 2001
They ran Galway to a point in 2001 and had won Ulster in 1999 and 2000 if my memory serves me right.
in 2001 Ros were Connacht champions. Kerry and Meath and the Dubs were strong as were Galway and Derry. That is 6.

I was working in PP at the time. Armagh were fifth in the betting at the start of the year, behind Kerry, Meath, Dublin and Galway. Admittedly there wasn't a lot between them and some of the others behind them, including Tyrone, Derry, Roscommon and Offaly, but they were perceived as a slight cut above that four all the same.
What about 98? Galway hadn't won Connacht since 95. A Connacht team hadn't won since 66. Were Galway also top 6?
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Esmarelda on January 09, 2017, 08:33:49 AM
Lone Shark, while my original point on the split still stands, what an 8, 12, 12 split does is push better teams down to "Junior" making the competition irrelevant for the likes of London, Carlow, Wicklow etc.

Again, for whom are we trying to change the structure?
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: armaghniac on January 09, 2017, 11:14:12 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 09, 2017, 12:51:05 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 07, 2017, 01:13:31 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 07, 2017, 12:30:54 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 06, 2017, 11:26:58 PM
Please don't presume to read my mind thanks very much. Maybe some of us are thinking what's best for Gaelic football.Just make your points for/against things without impugning the motives of posters here. How dare you!!
By the time Senior/Inter/Junior comes around we will be lucky (Demographics etc) to make the Junior grade.
In 25 years time there will be 1.5m people in Dublin and probably 800k in Kildare/Meath/Wicklow.
Are present Administrative structures and Competition structures suitable for this forthcoming lopsided population?

Okay, I'll bite. For footballing reasons, why is 12/12/8 superior to 8/12/12, when ostensibly, the latter would appear to create more competitive competitions for all? Realistically, outside of KY/TYR/MO/DL and at a real, real push, Cork & Galway, there is no-one else that would be shorter than 10/1 to beat Dublin in a one off game. Certainly it'd probably be a more lopsided fixture than Leitrim/Waterford/Antrim against Armagh or Clare, who'd be the type of teams that would be inter under 12/12/8 but junior under 8/8/12.

It isn't so long ago that Armagh beat Leitrim by a cricket score in Pairc Sean.

I remember - I was covering the game, and I got penalty points on the way into the match. The reason I know that it was the summer of 2013 is that those points only finally went off my license a few months ago!

Two things here:

(1) Armagh in 2013 were well ahead of Armagh 2016/2017.
(2) There could be cricket scores at any level, but Dublin beating teams ranked 9-12 by large margins is far more common that teams ranked around 20 giving out hidings to the Leitrims and Waterfords of this world.

It remains to be seen,  of course,  but I think Armagh in 2017 might well be comparable to 2013, as they are more a middle third team than  a lower third team. As such they might hammer a lower team and then get beaten by the likes of Galway.

The problem is that Dublin are the elephant in the room here,  as with a population of a province there will only ever be a handful of teams to stay close to them.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: magpie seanie on January 09, 2017, 11:47:02 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 09, 2017, 07:09:20 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 07, 2017, 12:58:27 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 07, 2017, 12:09:51 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 07, 2017, 11:37:10 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 07, 2017, 09:00:48 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 07, 2017, 03:21:05 AM
I am thinking long term. In the long term, the last time the Sam Maguire was won by any county that would have been deemed to be outside the top 6 at the start of that particular year would have been back in the early 1990's, when there was great parity and anyone of four or five Ulster Counties would have been capable, alongside Dublin, Kerry, Cork, and even Mayo (at a push). Before that, you probably have to go back to Offaly in 1971. Even then, all of those counties would have been comfortably inside the top ten in May of the relevant years.

Counties ranked 10/11/12 at the start of the year don't win the big prize, ever. They just don't do it. They come close occasionally (Down 2010, Galway 1983 come to mind) but they don't win.
What about Armagh in 2002 ? They were fairly mediocre in 2001
They ran Galway to a point in 2001 and had won Ulster in 1999 and 2000 if my memory serves me right.
in 2001 Ros were Connacht champions. Kerry and Meath and the Dubs were strong as were Galway and Derry. That is 6.

I was working in PP at the time. Armagh were fifth in the betting at the start of the year, behind Kerry, Meath, Dublin and Galway. Admittedly there wasn't a lot between them and some of the others behind them, including Tyrone, Derry, Roscommon and Offaly, but they were perceived as a slight cut above that four all the same.
What about 98? Galway hadn't won Connacht since 95. A Connacht team hadn't won since 66. Were Galway also top 6?

You might have a point with 1998. Kerry, Cork, Kildare, Dublin, Meath, Derry, Tyrone probably all higher rated at start of season???
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Jinxy on January 09, 2017, 11:51:44 AM
Not to mention Mayo.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: magpie seanie on January 09, 2017, 11:53:35 AM
Sorry, I thought I had put them in.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Fuzzman on January 09, 2017, 01:14:53 PM
Sometimes the answer is staring us in the face.
We already have 4 divisions which in fairness usually group teams of a similar level together, yes?
How many times do we see quarterfinals being quite one sided? We rarely see the top 8 teams in the country play each other in championship competitive matches and for me that's what I would like to see each year and then the best 4.

So we play the league games as usual, then come June we play the provincial championships and then come August we play the All Ireland series where we draw the quarterfinals from Div 1 only.
That way we will see the top 8 teams in the country play off against each other fairly, with no bias to Kerry or Dublin getting to that quarterfinal stage easier than anyone else.

Secondly, the provincial titles remain and could be a realistic chance for some of the teams from outside Div 1 to win a significant title.
It would in turn give the leagues a lot more meaning and motivate teams to try to get to Div 1 so they can win Sam.
24 counties would know in advance they won't be in the AI series so they can plan their championships much better.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 09, 2017, 01:22:15 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 09, 2017, 11:14:12 AM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 09, 2017, 12:51:05 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 07, 2017, 01:13:31 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on January 07, 2017, 12:30:54 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 06, 2017, 11:26:58 PM
Please don't presume to read my mind thanks very much. Maybe some of us are thinking what's best for Gaelic football.Just make your points for/against things without impugning the motives of posters here. How dare you!!
By the time Senior/Inter/Junior comes around we will be lucky (Demographics etc) to make the Junior grade.
In 25 years time there will be 1.5m people in Dublin and probably 800k in Kildare/Meath/Wicklow.
Are present Administrative structures and Competition structures suitable for this forthcoming lopsided population?

Okay, I'll bite. For footballing reasons, why is 12/12/8 superior to 8/12/12, when ostensibly, the latter would appear to create more competitive competitions for all? Realistically, outside of KY/TYR/MO/DL and at a real, real push, Cork & Galway, there is no-one else that would be shorter than 10/1 to beat Dublin in a one off game. Certainly it'd probably be a more lopsided fixture than Leitrim/Waterford/Antrim against Armagh or Clare, who'd be the type of teams that would be inter under 12/12/8 but junior under 8/8/12.

It isn't so long ago that Armagh beat Leitrim by a cricket score in Pairc Sean.

I remember - I was covering the game, and I got penalty points on the way into the match. The reason I know that it was the summer of 2013 is that those points only finally went off my license a few months ago!

Two things here:

(1) Armagh in 2013 were well ahead of Armagh 2016/2017.
(2) There could be cricket scores at any level, but Dublin beating teams ranked 9-12 by large margins is far more common that teams ranked around 20 giving out hidings to the Leitrims and Waterfords of this world.

It remains to be seen,  of course,  but I think Armagh in 2017 might well be comparable to 2013, as they are more a middle third team than  a lower third team. As such they might hammer a lower team and then get beaten by the likes of Galway.

The problem is that Dublin are the elephant in the room here,  as with a population of a province there will only ever be a handful of teams to stay close to them.
+1
That is the be-all and end-all of the problem with apathy and the falling off of intercounty players and no amount of fiddling with Tommy Murphy type competitions is going to change that.
Fair dues to Jim Gavin and the Dublin county board as they are only making best use of their resources. I imagine Rochford, or Harte of Fitzmaurice would be doing the same thing if circumstances allowed it.
Dublin has a population that is almost one third that of the entire Republic so all the resources needed to win an All Ireland are to be found there to a far greater extent than anywhere else.
Other counties, Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone etc. will try to match them as best they can but that involves spending an incredible amount of money, buying in medical and psychological expertise and so on as well as nutritionists and god knows what else. The concept of amateurism died a slow and painful death years ago.
Other counties, the middle-tier- as described here have ramped up their preparation in order to stay in touch with those above them and so on down the line to the very weakest.
A lot of counties are spending money that they cannot afford to shell out on preparing players who know they are going to go nowhere; one first round championship game, one backdoor one and then no competition until the championships begin the following year. Players outside the top four or five know there will be little to gain for the time and trouble they put in so if they decide to go and get a life, who can blame them?
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: OgraAnDun on January 09, 2017, 01:22:41 PM
If it had to go to Senior/Int/Junior, I would have it split 10/12/10. That way everyone in Division 1, plus the two promoted Division 2 sides would be in the senior championship. The relegated sides from Division 3 would fight it out with the Division 4 sides for the Junior title, with the promoted sides from D4 motivated by the fact that a half decent league campaign the following year has them in Intermediate. That leaves the majority of Division 2 and 3 (who are fairly evenly matched) playing for the Intermediate title.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Lone Shark on January 09, 2017, 02:07:59 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on January 09, 2017, 08:33:49 AM
Lone Shark, while my original point on the split still stands, what an 8, 12, 12 split does is push better teams down to "Junior" making the competition irrelevant for the likes of London, Carlow, Wicklow etc.

Again, for whom are we trying to change the structure?

This is kind of my key point - I'm not entirely sure who wants a change of any type, other than pundits from leading counties who'd like to spend more time watching Kerry vs Dublin and a lot less time watching Derry vs Antrim, or armchair supporters who want the same.

Quote from: seafoid on January 09, 2017, 07:09:20 AM
What about 98? Galway hadn't won Connacht since 95. A Connacht team hadn't won since 66. Were Galway also top 6?

It was a very lopsided draw that year which might have skewed the betting a little, however I'll agree that there is no way that Galway would have been in the top six counties by ranking at the start of the year. I'm not sure that one exception in 50 odd years disproves my point though.

Quote from: Fuzzman on January 09, 2017, 01:14:53 PM
Sometimes the answer is staring us in the face.
We already have 4 divisions which in fairness usually group teams of a similar level together, yes?
How many times do we see quarterfinals being quite one sided? We rarely see the top 8 teams in the country play each other in championship competitive matches and for me that's what I would like to see each year and then the best 4.

So we play the league games as usual, then come June we play the provincial championships and then come August we play the All Ireland series where we draw the quarterfinals from Div 1 only.
That way we will see the top 8 teams in the country play off against each other fairly, with no bias to Kerry or Dublin getting to that quarterfinal stage easier than anyone else.

Secondly, the provincial titles remain and could be a realistic chance for some of the teams from outside Div 1 to win a significant title.
It would in turn give the leagues a lot more meaning and motivate teams to try to get to Div 1 so they can win Sam.
24 counties would know in advance they won't be in the AI series so they can plan their championships much better.

Once more with feeling - if the provincial championships are not an integral part of the All Ireland series and the first choice route to the All Ireland quarter finals for the big teams, they won't "remain" in any meaningful sense of the word - they will "remain" in the same way that the Munster Senior Cup will "remain" as a target for Garryowen and Young Munster in club rugby. The competition will exist, but it will be irrevocably cheapened, and by definition, if it means nothing to Mayo/Dublin/Kerry, it can't mean as much to Leitrim/Longford/Limerick.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Owenmoresider on January 09, 2017, 02:26:08 PM
Quote from: Fuzzman on January 09, 2017, 01:14:53 PM
Sometimes the answer is staring us in the face.
We already have 4 divisions which in fairness usually group teams of a similar level together, yes?
How many times do we see quarterfinals being quite one sided? We rarely see the top 8 teams in the country play each other in championship competitive matches and for me that's what I would like to see each year and then the best 4.

So we play the league games as usual, then come June we play the provincial championships and then come August we play the All Ireland series where we draw the quarterfinals from Div 1 only.
That way we will see the top 8 teams in the country play off against each other fairly, with no bias to Kerry or Dublin getting to that quarterfinal stage easier than anyone else.

Secondly, the provincial titles remain and could be a realistic chance for some of the teams from outside Div 1 to win a significant title.
It would in turn give the leagues a lot more meaning and motivate teams to try to get to Div 1 so they can win Sam.
24 counties would know in advance they won't be in the AI series so they can plan their championships much better.
There's merit in the idea of linking the league like that but I'd give the provincial winners (and possibly finalists) a place in the latter stages, and not restrict entry merely to the D1 teams. Something like:

The provincial winners to QF's - could include finalists to make it a round of 16 if need be;
8 teams drawn from the league placings - something like it was in the old NFL playoffs structure i.e. top 4 D1, top 2 D2, and winners of D3 & D4.

There probably would be some duplication but those teams could get byes into the last 8 in that situation anyway. In 2016 that would have meant Dublin, Kerry, Galway and Tyrone as provincial winners, and Roscommon, Donegal, Cavan, Clare and Louth through via the NFL (Dublin/Kerry/Tyrone already in). Tipperary and Westmeath would have also gone through if finalists were factored in.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: OgraAnDun on January 09, 2017, 02:33:52 PM
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=25868.0

This is still the best structure I am yet to see from anyone.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: magpie seanie on January 09, 2017, 03:19:46 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on January 09, 2017, 02:33:52 PM
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=25868.0

This is still the best structure I am yet to see from anyone.

I hadn't read that but I think it's excellent. Tough on Leinster counties (and one in Ulster) for example who might have to win a game to get to a provincial QF (i.e. win a game and get no points for it while Connacht teams would presumably get 2 points for beating New York or London. That's the only issue I'd see with it and as you've mentioned if they've had a good enough league it could be moot. Relying on a good provincial c'ship would be dangerous territory.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Esmarelda on January 09, 2017, 03:28:05 PM
I liked Rossfan's idea of a Junior and Intermediate Championship being played early in the summer with the winners gaining entry to that year's All-Ireland series. It's like a Champions' League qualifier and meant that everyone got a shot at Sam in that year.

However, it was a very tight schedule and with the new proposals to tighten the inter-county schedule on the agenda it's not feasible.

Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 09, 2017, 04:22:16 PM
On the question of apathy and populations -
It is extremely unlikely that the following will ever win the All Ireland SFC due to small population-
Fermanagh,Cavan, Monaghan.
Roscommon,  Sligo ,Leitrim.
Longford, Westmeath, Offaly, Laois, Carlow.
For hurling reasons we can add Wexford, Kilkenny,  Waterford, Tipperary, Limerick Clare.
That's 17 of the 32 Counties who can at best expect to be "competitive" and reach the odd Quarter Final.
That's a sort of natural list of Junior and Intermediate participants.
Derry and Armagh have small enough GAA populations but are in the midst of better economic opportunies than are available to Ros, Longford etc. and of course Derry could try and convert a lot of the city crowd to proper football.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: AZOffaly on January 09, 2017, 04:25:21 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 09, 2017, 04:22:16 PM
On the question of apathy and populations -
It is extremely unlikely that the following will ever win the All Ireland SFC due to small population-
Fermanagh,Cavan, Monaghan.
Roscommon,  Sligo ,Leitrim.
Longford, Westmeath, Offaly, Laois, Carlow.
For hurling reasons we can add Wexford, Kilkenny,  Waterford, Tipperary, Limerick Clare.
That's 17 of the 32 Counties who can at best expect to be "competitive" and reach the odd Quarter Final.
That's a sort of natural list of Junior and Intermediate participants.
Derry and Armagh have small enough GAA populations but are in the midst of better economic opportunies than are available to Ros, Longford etc. and of course Derry could try and convert a lot of the city crowd to proper football.

Quite a few of those counties mentioned have won Senior All Irelands in the past. What is the main reason they can't do so in the future? Population wise it's probably not much different in 2017 than in 1977.

Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 09, 2017, 04:40:38 PM
Ros 1944
Cavan 1952
Wexford 1918
Tipp 1920?
Limerick 1896?
Biffos 1982.
Roscommon probably had a bigger population than the likes of Meath/Kildare back in '44.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: AZOffaly on January 09, 2017, 04:43:03 PM
Yeah, I was mostly thinking of Offaly :)

In fairness Cavan and Monaghan would still feel that's a target for them. Roscommon are one of the favourites for the All Ireland every year.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Cunny Funt on January 09, 2017, 04:50:16 PM
Are Offaly in the 80s the last county with a population of less than 80,000 to reach All Ireland senior final?
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 09, 2017, 05:11:19 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 09, 2017, 04:43:03 PM
. Roscommon are one of the favourites for the All Ireland every year.
In Syfland maybe :(
2 Connacht titles in 25 years would suggest otherwise. .....
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: magpie seanie on January 09, 2017, 05:17:03 PM
The big game changer is that Dublin have got their act together over the last 10-15 years and the vast majority cannot now compete with a well resourced, lean Dublin machine. Their underachievement in the 80's, 90's and 00's was staggering when you look back. Their population wasn't quite as high but it was still huge compared to anyone else and they only landed 2 titles from 1978 to 2010.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: AZOffaly on January 10, 2017, 09:01:01 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 09, 2017, 05:11:19 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 09, 2017, 04:43:03 PM
. Roscommon are one of the favourites for the All Ireland every year.
In Syfland maybe :(
2 Connacht titles in 25 years would suggest otherwise. .....

That may have been tongue in cheek.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2017, 09:17:59 AM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on January 09, 2017, 04:50:16 PM
Are Offaly in the 80s the last county with a population of less than 80,000 to reach All Ireland senior final?
The Derry GF population may be less than 80K
Maybe Armagh as well
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 10, 2017, 09:27:09 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 10, 2017, 09:01:01 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 09, 2017, 05:11:19 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 09, 2017, 04:43:03 PM
. Roscommon are one of the favourites for the All Ireland every year.
In Syfland maybe :(
2 Connacht titles in 25 years would suggest otherwise. .....

That may have been tongue in cheek.
I know it was but just putting us in perspective.
The 17 Counties  I listed have only 10 or 11 Provincial titles between them in the last 25 years.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Real Talk on January 10, 2017, 10:21:00 AM
Folks currently success at County level is not just about ability its also about  ...... MONEY

Money to pay for a back room staff of in some cases over 40 people getting some form of payment from some source to maintain the Professional Prep required to compete at the 'top table'.  If the Dublin's, Kerry's, Mayo's and Tyrone's of this world are training 4/5 times a week ... can you imagine how much player traveling expenses are involved over a 40 week period/year

Good quality players are aware what's happening in this regard throughout the country.  If they believe that 'their' county can't commit/don't want to commit/don't have the sponsorship to pay for that massive expenditure then it is unlikely that they will give up their time to a lost cause in an less than level playing field (no pun intended) .....

Amateur association ..... ?????????????
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: rosnarun on January 10, 2017, 12:21:59 PM
allow only top 8 compete for same and a strict 1  in 1 out relegation  system based on winning level 2 competition see if players take it more seriously then?
has to be a stick with every Carrot
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Jinxy on January 10, 2017, 12:25:23 PM
Relegation should be two up, two down otherwise you could have a lot of dead rubber games.
It's as much about teams trying to avoid relegation as it is about getting promotion.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: sligoman2 on January 10, 2017, 12:36:55 PM
Great to see that Ross Donovan has reversed the trend and has come out of inter-county retirement.  One of the toughest defenders in the country and its great to see him back.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Substandard on January 10, 2017, 12:57:39 PM
Interesting reading.  Apart from the difficulty of selling any radical changes that would get past congress, I'd imagine there'd have to be heavy promotion of the competition for the weaker counties:  would games be televised, or would there be a highlights/ discussion program on television?  Serious investment would need to be made, at least directly from Croke Park.  Would there be a risk (unlikely, but still possible) that SKY would have the 'Senior' rights, while the rest might get token coverage?  I've no real agenda here one way or another, just a few thoughts based on what I've read so far.  Also, what happens to London/ New York?
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Jinxy on January 10, 2017, 01:04:48 PM
New York are out the gap.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 10, 2017, 02:22:45 PM
Quote from: Real Talk on January 10, 2017, 10:21:00 AM
Folks currently success at County level is not just about ability its also about  ...... MONEY

Money to pay for a back room staff of in some cases over 40 people getting some form of payment from some source to maintain the Professional Prep required to compete at the 'top table'.  If the Dublin's, Kerry's, Mayo's and Tyrone's of this world are training 4/5 times a week ... can you imagine how much player traveling expenses are involved over a 40 week period/year

Good quality players are aware what's happening in this regard throughout the country.  If they believe that 'their' county can't commit/don't want to commit/don't have the sponsorship to pay for that massive expenditure then it is unlikely that they will give up their time to a lost cause in an less than level playing field (no pun intended) .....

Amateur association ..... ?????????????

That's 100% right!
Apathy has feck all to do with Mickey Mouse competitions. Those who remember the Centenary Cup and more recently, the Tommy Murphy will understand this. It takes money to get anywhere nowadays and counties that can't afford the backup of Dublin and the chasing pack; Mayo, Tyrone, Kerry and maybe one or two others, know damn well that all the gutbusting in the world won't get any of them anywhere.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Hound on January 10, 2017, 02:32:30 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 09, 2017, 05:17:03 PM
The big game changer is that Dublin have got their act together over the last 10-15 years and the vast majority cannot now compete with a well resourced, lean Dublin machine. Their underachievement in the 80's, 90's and 00's was staggering when you look back. Their population wasn't quite as high but it was still huge compared to anyone else and they only landed 2 titles from 1978 to 2010.
We could still only play 15 in those years and we had no Diarmuid Connolly or Stephen Cluxton.
If population was the most important factor our hurlers would be regular All Ireland champions also. But they don't have a Cluxton, Connolly, Brogan in their midst to propel them up the rankings. We've got some awesome players at the minute, like Kerry used to have when they were winning countless titles in the 70s and 80s and like they're likely to have in a few years time (or less) when they inevitably regain top spot.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 10, 2017, 02:51:47 PM
Quote from: Substandard on January 10, 2017, 12:57:39 PM
Interesting reading.  Apart from the difficulty of selling any radical changes that would get past congress, I'd imagine there'd have to be heavy promotion of the competition for the weaker counties:  would games be televised, or would there be a highlights/ discussion program on television?  Serious investment would need to be made, at least directly from Croke Park.  Would there be a risk (unlikely, but still possible) that SKY would have the 'Senior' rights, while the rest might get token coverage?  I've no real agenda here one way or another, just a few thoughts based on what I've read so far.  Also, what happens to London/ New York?

Sponsorship and TV packages would have to include all 3 (or whatever) Championships. You want to show 1 Senior game - you must cover an Inter and a Junior too.
To encouraget Co Boards etc - could a percentage of the gates be pooled and divided equally between all participants.
If you had 140,000 at Senior Semis, 40k at Inter and 25k at Junior Semis - put €5 a head into the pool and divide equally between the 12 Co Boards.???
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Cunny Funt on January 10, 2017, 06:57:07 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on January 10, 2017, 12:36:55 PM
Great to see that Ross Donovan has reversed the trend and has come out of inter-county retirement.  One of the toughest defenders in the country and its great to see him back.
Did he officially retire or take a year out? Sligos neighbors Donegal are going through a major transitional phase with I think 8 of last years panel either retired or taking time out.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Aaron Boone on January 10, 2017, 08:32:12 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on January 10, 2017, 06:57:07 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on January 10, 2017, 12:36:55 PM
Great to see that Ross Donovan has reversed the trend and has come out of inter-county retirement.  One of the toughest defenders in the country and its great to see him back.
Did he officially retire or take a year out? Sligos neighbors Donegal are going through a major transitional phase with I think 8 of last years panel either retired or taking time out.
Do Sligo and Donegal have a border? Not important anyway.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Zulu on January 10, 2017, 08:45:10 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 10, 2017, 02:22:45 PM
Quote from: Real Talk on January 10, 2017, 10:21:00 AM
Folks currently success at County level is not just about ability its also about  ...... MONEY

Money to pay for a back room staff of in some cases over 40 people getting some form of payment from some source to maintain the Professional Prep required to compete at the 'top table'.  If the Dublin's, Kerry's, Mayo's and Tyrone's of this world are training 4/5 times a week ... can you imagine how much player traveling expenses are involved over a 40 week period/year

Good quality players are aware what's happening in this regard throughout the country.  If they believe that 'their' county can't commit/don't want to commit/don't have the sponsorship to pay for that massive expenditure then it is unlikely that they will give up their time to a lost cause in an less than level playing field (no pun intended) .....

Amateur association ..... ?????????????

That's 100% right!
Apathy has feck all to do with Mickey Mouse competitions. Those who remember the Centenary Cup and more recently, the Tommy Murphy will understand this. It takes money to get anywhere nowadays and counties that can't afford the backup of Dublin and the chasing pack; Mayo, Tyrone, Kerry and maybe one or two others, know damn well that all the gutbusting in the world won't get any of them anywhere.

That's 100% wrong in fact. When was there a time when Waterford, Limerick, Carlow, Leitrim, Wicklow, Fermanagh, Antrim, Louth etc. had a realistic chance of winning something? Yes, some of them have challenged during small windows of power during the GAA's 130+ years of existence but the vast majority of counties have started the vast majority of seasons with no chance of winning anything bar their division. I've said this before but the vast majority of county footballers couldn't care less about Dublin's money as they never had the likes of them in their sights anyway.

A few posters have asked what problem we are trying to solve, I find this an astonishing question. For me, it's really simple. I want to see a logical, workable, competitive games structure for all players at all levels. The basic structure for any competition is that players get regular, structured games that are, in the main, at a level where they can compete. For me, the provincials are the biggest stumbling block to achieving that but if they can be included in a proper format fine.

Colin Ryan, the Clare hurler, made a good point when opting out this year. He is a good soccer player too and in that code he said there are no 3 month build ups to games and 2 week fallouts, there's a new game the following week to get on with. The sooner we get our heads out of our arses and play our competitions largely on a league basis the better.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: AZOffaly on January 10, 2017, 09:42:19 PM
Quote from: Zulu on January 10, 2017, 08:45:10 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 10, 2017, 02:22:45 PM
Quote from: Real Talk on January 10, 2017, 10:21:00 AM
Folks currently success at County level is not just about ability its also about  ...... MONEY

Money to pay for a back room staff of in some cases over 40 people getting some form of payment from some source to maintain the Professional Prep required to compete at the 'top table'.  If the Dublin's, Kerry's, Mayo's and Tyrone's of this world are training 4/5 times a week ... can you imagine how much player traveling expenses are involved over a 40 week period/year

Good quality players are aware what's happening in this regard throughout the country.  If they believe that 'their' county can't commit/don't want to commit/don't have the sponsorship to pay for that massive expenditure then it is unlikely that they will give up their time to a lost cause in an less than level playing field (no pun intended) .....

Amateur association ..... ?????????????

That's 100% right!
Apathy has feck all to do with Mickey Mouse competitions. Those who remember the Centenary Cup and more recently, the Tommy Murphy will understand this. It takes money to get anywhere nowadays and counties that can't afford the backup of Dublin and the chasing pack; Mayo, Tyrone, Kerry and maybe one or two others, know damn well that all the gutbusting in the world won't get any of them anywhere.

That's 100% wrong in fact. When was there a time when Waterford, Limerick, Carlow, Leitrim, Wicklow, Fermanagh, Antrim, Louth etc. had a realistic chance of winning something? Yes, some of them have challenged during small windows of power during the GAA's 130+ years of existence but the vast majority of counties have started the vast majority of seasons with no chance of winning anything bar their division. I've said this before but the vast majority of county footballers couldn't care less about Dublin's money as they never had the likes of them in their sights anyway.

A few posters have asked what problem we are trying to solve, I find this an astonishing question. For me, it's really simple. I want to see a logical, workable, competitive games structure for all players at all levels. The basic structure for any competition is that players get regular, structured games that are, in the main, at a level where they can compete. For me, the provincials are the biggest stumbling block to achieving that but if they can be included in a proper format fine.

Colin Ryan, the Clare hurler, made a good point when opting out this year. He is a good soccer player too and in that code he said there are no 3 month build ups to games and 2 week fallouts, there's a new game the following week to get on with. The sooner we get our heads out of our arses and play our competitions largely on a league basis the better.

To be fair to you Zulu that's been your mantra for years, and you've stuck to it. However the reason I've asked about what the problem is, is I don't think there is a genuine consensus on that. You mention levels and I think that is certainly something that is far from universally accepted. Therefore any proposals which introduce that concept of tiers, or levels, is immediately controversial.

What you say sounds sensible, but the devil is in the detail and that's why I believe you have to get consensus on that problem, and not in a nebulous idea, but in a clearly stated problem and solution. Problem - Too Many Lopsided games; Solution - Tiered Championship or Preliminary Rounds with seeding based in league position etc etc,

Problem - Uncertain and illogical club calendar; Solution - Shortened inter county season, national club and country integrated calendar, etc etc.

That's what I mean when I ask that at least there is agreement on what the actual problems are before there is any solutions proposed.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 10, 2017, 09:45:15 PM
Quote from: Zulu on January 10, 2017, 08:45:10 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 10, 2017, 02:22:45 PM
Quote from: Real Talk on January 10, 2017, 10:21:00 AM
Folks currently success at County level is not just about ability its also about  ...... MONEY

Money to pay for a back room staff of in some cases over 40 people getting some form of payment from some source to maintain the Professional Prep required to compete at the 'top table'.  If the Dublin's, Kerry's, Mayo's and Tyrone's of this world are training 4/5 times a week ... can you imagine how much player traveling expenses are involved over a 40 week period/year

Good quality players are aware what's happening in this regard throughout the country.  If they believe that 'their' county can't commit/don't want to commit/don't have the sponsorship to pay for that massive expenditure then it is unlikely that they will give up their time to a lost cause in an less than level playing field (no pun intended) .....

Amateur association ..... ?????????????

That's 100% right!
Apathy has feck all to do with Mickey Mouse competitions. Those who remember the Centenary Cup and more recently, the Tommy Murphy will understand this. It takes money to get anywhere nowadays and counties that can't afford the backup of Dublin and the chasing pack; Mayo, Tyrone, Kerry and maybe one or two others, know damn well that all the gutbusting in the world won't get any of them anywhere.

That's 100% wrong in fact. When was there a time when Waterford, Limerick, Carlow, Leitrim, Wicklow, Fermanagh, Antrim, Louth etc. had a realistic chance of winning something? Yes, some of them have challenged during small windows of power during the GAA's 130+ years of existence but the vast majority of counties have started the vast majority of seasons with no chance of winning anything bar their division. I've said this before but the vast majority of county footballers couldn't care less about Dublin's money as they never had the likes of them in their sights anyway.

A few posters have asked what problem we are trying to solve, I find this an astonishing question. For me, it's really simple. I want to see a logical, workable, competitive games structure for all players at all levels. The basic structure for any competition is that players get regular, structured games that are, in the main, at a level where they can compete. For me, the provincials are the biggest stumbling block to achieving that but if they can be included in a proper format fine.

Colin Ryan, the Clare hurler, made a good point when opting out this year. He is a good soccer player too and in that code he said there are no 3 month build ups to games and 2 week fallouts, there's a new game the following week to get on with. The sooner we get our heads out of our arses and play our competitions largely on a league basis the better.
Now, now Zulu, I wish things were that simple! ;D ;D
There are lots of things we'd all love to see but we know we never will.
Yup, I agree the provinces are a major stumbling block and also that we'd be better served by a largely league format but so what?
What you and probably I want to see may never come to pass in our lifetimes. We all know there's lots wrong with our present competitive structures but we have to accept the situation as it is.

From what I've seen, read or heard an increasing number of intercounty players are opting out of the rat race that Gaelic football has become. Sure lots of counties have always known they'd never have a hope of winning an All Ireland or might just hit it lucky with a provincial title or two in a generation or two but that was before the twin terrors of Professionalism and Science cast  their shadows across the future of the GAA.
Many players, and all are not in the weaker counties, find when they count the cost and the sacrifices involved in playing intercounty football nowadays, the demands are too much and so they opt out.
It's all right talking about the likes of  Waterford, Limerick, Carlow, Leitrim, Wicklow, Fermanagh, Antrim, Louth etc. not having a chance of winning an AI.
But when did players from those counties, or any others, find they had to train 3 or more times a week or put up with having every aspect of their lives supervised and directed by a horde of nutritionists, analysts, doctors, physios and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all. ( You could throw a few psychos into the mix as well, going by some reports!)
Dublin has a professional setup and every county with any serious hopes of winning are doing their best to keep up with the leaders.
Problem for many is the fact that the element of fun and enjoyment has gone out of the game. It's deadly serious now-and not only in the case of Dublin and the three r four other top teams.
All counties are beefing up on Centres of Excellence and all that goes with this. A case of a rising tide lifting all boats. Players from the counties you classify as no-hopers find they are expected to train the same as everybody else. Throw in the increased demands from colleges, clubs and maybe u21 managers at club and county level, as well and an increasing number are opting out of the rat race while they still have a tint of sanity left.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Itchy on January 10, 2017, 10:17:31 PM
Biggest problem in gaa at the minute is club apathy.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2017, 10:40:00 PM
In Kildare there is Athyapathy
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Zulu on January 10, 2017, 10:47:21 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 10, 2017, 09:42:19 PM
Quote from: Zulu on January 10, 2017, 08:45:10 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 10, 2017, 02:22:45 PM
Quote from: Real Talk on January 10, 2017, 10:21:00 AM
Folks currently success at County level is not just about ability its also about  ...... MONEY

Money to pay for a back room staff of in some cases over 40 people getting some form of payment from some source to maintain the Professional Prep required to compete at the 'top table'.  If the Dublin's, Kerry's, Mayo's and Tyrone's of this world are training 4/5 times a week ... can you imagine how much player traveling expenses are involved over a 40 week period/year

Good quality players are aware what's happening in this regard throughout the country.  If they believe that 'their' county can't commit/don't want to commit/don't have the sponsorship to pay for that massive expenditure then it is unlikely that they will give up their time to a lost cause in an less than level playing field (no pun intended) .....

Amateur association ..... ?????????????

That's 100% right!
Apathy has feck all to do with Mickey Mouse competitions. Those who remember the Centenary Cup and more recently, the Tommy Murphy will understand this. It takes money to get anywhere nowadays and counties that can't afford the backup of Dublin and the chasing pack; Mayo, Tyrone, Kerry and maybe one or two others, know damn well that all the gutbusting in the world won't get any of them anywhere.

That's 100% wrong in fact. When was there a time when Waterford, Limerick, Carlow, Leitrim, Wicklow, Fermanagh, Antrim, Louth etc. had a realistic chance of winning something? Yes, some of them have challenged during small windows of power during the GAA's 130+ years of existence but the vast majority of counties have started the vast majority of seasons with no chance of winning anything bar their division. I've said this before but the vast majority of county footballers couldn't care less about Dublin's money as they never had the likes of them in their sights anyway.

A few posters have asked what problem we are trying to solve, I find this an astonishing question. For me, it's really simple. I want to see a logical, workable, competitive games structure for all players at all levels. The basic structure for any competition is that players get regular, structured games that are, in the main, at a level where they can compete. For me, the provincials are the biggest stumbling block to achieving that but if they can be included in a proper format fine.

Colin Ryan, the Clare hurler, made a good point when opting out this year. He is a good soccer player too and in that code he said there are no 3 month build ups to games and 2 week fallouts, there's a new game the following week to get on with. The sooner we get our heads out of our arses and play our competitions largely on a league basis the better.

To be fair to you Zulu that's been your mantra for years, and you've stuck to it. However the reason I've asked about what the problem is, is I don't think there is a genuine consensus on that. You mention levels and I think that is certainly something that is far from universally accepted. Therefore any proposals which introduce that concept of tiers, or levels, is immediately controversial.

What you say sounds sensible, but the devil is in the detail and that's why I believe you have to get consensus on that problem, and not in a nebulous idea, but in a clearly stated problem and solution. Problem - Too Many Lopsided games; Solution - Tiered Championship or Preliminary Rounds with seeding based in league position etc etc,

Problem - Uncertain and illogical club calendar; Solution - Shortened inter county season, national club and country integrated calendar, etc etc.

That's what I mean when I ask that at least there is agreement on what the actual problems are before there is any solutions proposed.

Ok AZ, but I've proposed a solution to all that but it sacrifices the provincials. You play the league and seed teams from 1-32 with a championship that pits seed 1 v 32 and so on. I've also said get rid of dual players and lads playing U21 and senior so you can play the hurling and football leagues in 8 weeks (7 rounds and no finals, top wins their division). Knockout is 32 to 16 to 8 to 4 to the final so 5 weeks, hurling one week, football the other so 10 weeks, maybe add in another rest week for finalists making it 12 weeks. That's a 20 week season or 5 months, a completely structured season, numerous games every week, most of your games against teams you can compete with (league) and a pathway to improve and get a more favourable draw in the championship. The three sacred cows we need to sacrifice are the provincials, dual players and U21 and senior dual representatives. In doing that, you can play minor, U21 and senior IC, hurling and football, all within that 5 or 6 month period and leave the other 6 or 7 months to club players. Everyone has a shot at Sam, everyone gets games against appropriate opponents, knockout football is back, burnout risks are eliminated, and players only have to wait two weeks max for a game.

To me that makes so much sense as to be beyond reasonable criticism.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Zulu on January 10, 2017, 10:49:36 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 10, 2017, 09:45:15 PM
Quote from: Zulu on January 10, 2017, 08:45:10 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 10, 2017, 02:22:45 PM
Quote from: Real Talk on January 10, 2017, 10:21:00 AM
Folks currently success at County level is not just about ability its also about  ...... MONEY

Money to pay for a back room staff of in some cases over 40 people getting some form of payment from some source to maintain the Professional Prep required to compete at the 'top table'.  If the Dublin's, Kerry's, Mayo's and Tyrone's of this world are training 4/5 times a week ... can you imagine how much player traveling expenses are involved over a 40 week period/year

Good quality players are aware what's happening in this regard throughout the country.  If they believe that 'their' county can't commit/don't want to commit/don't have the sponsorship to pay for that massive expenditure then it is unlikely that they will give up their time to a lost cause in an less than level playing field (no pun intended) .....

Amateur association ..... ?????????????

That's 100% right!
Apathy has feck all to do with Mickey Mouse competitions. Those who remember the Centenary Cup and more recently, the Tommy Murphy will understand this. It takes money to get anywhere nowadays and counties that can't afford the backup of Dublin and the chasing pack; Mayo, Tyrone, Kerry and maybe one or two others, know damn well that all the gutbusting in the world won't get any of them anywhere.

That's 100% wrong in fact. When was there a time when Waterford, Limerick, Carlow, Leitrim, Wicklow, Fermanagh, Antrim, Louth etc. had a realistic chance of winning something? Yes, some of them have challenged during small windows of power during the GAA's 130+ years of existence but the vast majority of counties have started the vast majority of seasons with no chance of winning anything bar their division. I've said this before but the vast majority of county footballers couldn't care less about Dublin's money as they never had the likes of them in their sights anyway.

A few posters have asked what problem we are trying to solve, I find this an astonishing question. For me, it's really simple. I want to see a logical, workable, competitive games structure for all players at all levels. The basic structure for any competition is that players get regular, structured games that are, in the main, at a level where they can compete. For me, the provincials are the biggest stumbling block to achieving that but if they can be included in a proper format fine.

Colin Ryan, the Clare hurler, made a good point when opting out this year. He is a good soccer player too and in that code he said there are no 3 month build ups to games and 2 week fallouts, there's a new game the following week to get on with. The sooner we get our heads out of our arses and play our competitions largely on a league basis the better.
Now, now Zulu, I wish things were that simple! ;D ;D
There are lots of things we'd all love to see but we know we never will.
Yup, I agree the provinces are a major stumbling block and also that we'd be better served by a largely league format but so what?
What you and probably I want to see may never come to pass in our lifetimes. We all know there's lots wrong with our present competitive structures but we have to accept the situation as it is.

From what I've seen, read or heard an increasing number of intercounty players are opting out of the rat race that Gaelic football has become. Sure lots of counties have always known they'd never have a hope of winning an All Ireland or might just hit it lucky with a provincial title or two in a generation or two but that was before the twin terrors of Professionalism and Science cast  their shadows across the future of the GAA.
Many players, and all are not in the weaker counties, find when they count the cost and the sacrifices involved in playing intercounty football nowadays, the demands are too much and so they opt out.
It's all right talking about the likes of  Waterford, Limerick, Carlow, Leitrim, Wicklow, Fermanagh, Antrim, Louth etc. not having a chance of winning an AI.
But when did players from those counties, or any others, find they had to train 3 or more times a week or put up with having every aspect of their lives supervised and directed by a horde of nutritionists, analysts, doctors, physios and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all. ( You could throw a few psychos into the mix as well, going by some reports!)
Dublin has a professional setup and every county with any serious hopes of winning are doing their best to keep up with the leaders.
Problem for many is the fact that the element of fun and enjoyment has gone out of the game. It's deadly serious now-and not only in the case of Dublin and the three r four other top teams.
All counties are beefing up on Centres of Excellence and all that goes with this. A case of a rising tide lifting all boats. Players from the counties you classify as no-hopers find they are expected to train the same as everybody else. Throw in the increased demands from colleges, clubs and maybe u21 managers at club and county level, as well and an increasing number are opting out of the rat race while they still have a tint of sanity left.

Lar, I agree with all of that bar that we should accept it. This is our GAA and I think we should look to change it.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 11, 2017, 08:21:33 AM
Quote from: Zulu on January 10, 2017, 10:49:36 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 10, 2017, 09:45:15 PM
Quote from: Zulu on January 10, 2017, 08:45:10 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on January 10, 2017, 02:22:45 PM
Quote from: Real Talk on January 10, 2017, 10:21:00 AM
Folks currently success at County level is not just about ability its also about  ...... MONEY

Money to pay for a back room staff of in some cases over 40 people getting some form of payment from some source to maintain the Professional Prep required to compete at the 'top table'.  If the Dublin's, Kerry's, Mayo's and Tyrone's of this world are training 4/5 times a week ... can you imagine how much player traveling expenses are involved over a 40 week period/year

Good quality players are aware what's happening in this regard throughout the country.  If they believe that 'their' county can't commit/don't want to commit/don't have the sponsorship to pay for that massive expenditure then it is unlikely that they will give up their time to a lost cause in an less than level playing field (no pun intended) .....

Amateur association ..... ?????????????

That's 100% right!
Apathy has feck all to do with Mickey Mouse competitions. Those who remember the Centenary Cup and more recently, the Tommy Murphy will understand this. It takes money to get anywhere nowadays and counties that can't afford the backup of Dublin and the chasing pack; Mayo, Tyrone, Kerry and maybe one or two others, know damn well that all the gutbusting in the world won't get any of them anywhere.

That's 100% wrong in fact. When was there a time when Waterford, Limerick, Carlow, Leitrim, Wicklow, Fermanagh, Antrim, Louth etc. had a realistic chance of winning something? Yes, some of them have challenged during small windows of power during the GAA's 130+ years of existence but the vast majority of counties have started the vast majority of seasons with no chance of winning anything bar their division. I've said this before but the vast majority of county footballers couldn't care less about Dublin's money as they never had the likes of them in their sights anyway.

A few posters have asked what problem we are trying to solve, I find this an astonishing question. For me, it's really simple. I want to see a logical, workable, competitive games structure for all players at all levels. The basic structure for any competition is that players get regular, structured games that are, in the main, at a level where they can compete. For me, the provincials are the biggest stumbling block to achieving that but if they can be included in a proper format fine.

Colin Ryan, the Clare hurler, made a good point when opting out this year. He is a good soccer player too and in that code he said there are no 3 month build ups to games and 2 week fallouts, there's a new game the following week to get on with. The sooner we get our heads out of our arses and play our competitions largely on a league basis the better.
Now, now Zulu, I wish things were that simple! ;D ;D
There are lots of things we'd all love to see but we know we never will.
Yup, I agree the provinces are a major stumbling block and also that we'd be better served by a largely league format but so what?
What you and probably I want to see may never come to pass in our lifetimes. We all know there's lots wrong with our present competitive structures but we have to accept the situation as it is.

From what I've seen, read or heard an increasing number of intercounty players are opting out of the rat race that Gaelic football has become. Sure lots of counties have always known they'd never have a hope of winning an All Ireland or might just hit it lucky with a provincial title or two in a generation or two but that was before the twin terrors of Professionalism and Science cast  their shadows across the future of the GAA.
Many players, and all are not in the weaker counties, find when they count the cost and the sacrifices involved in playing intercounty football nowadays, the demands are too much and so they opt out.
It's all right talking about the likes of  Waterford, Limerick, Carlow, Leitrim, Wicklow, Fermanagh, Antrim, Louth etc. not having a chance of winning an AI.
But when did players from those counties, or any others, find they had to train 3 or more times a week or put up with having every aspect of their lives supervised and directed by a horde of nutritionists, analysts, doctors, physios and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all. ( You could throw a few psychos into the mix as well, going by some reports!)
Dublin has a professional setup and every county with any serious hopes of winning are doing their best to keep up with the leaders.
Problem for many is the fact that the element of fun and enjoyment has gone out of the game. It's deadly serious now-and not only in the case of Dublin and the three r four other top teams.
All counties are beefing up on Centres of Excellence and all that goes with this. A case of a rising tide lifting all boats. Players from the counties you classify as no-hopers find they are expected to train the same as everybody else. Throw in the increased demands from colleges, clubs and maybe u21 managers at club and county level, as well and an increasing number are opting out of the rat race while they still have a tint of sanity left.

Lar, I agree with all of that bar that we should accept it. This is our GAA and I think we should look to change it.
I've no problem in agreeing with what you say but  the reality is that it's more a case of what should be done rather that could be done. We both know that there will be no change in the provincial system in our lifetimes.
Cork and Kerry  will want their Munster final.
Mayo and Galway will happily continue to kick s**te out of each other for years to come and so and on. Tradition dies hard in GAA land. Remember the Centenary Cup, back in 1984, the centennial year.
THe GAA tried hard to pimp out the competition, the open draw format, but,after the novelty value wore off, the project was quietly shelved. Tommy  Murphy died a relatively quick death also. I remember the chairman of the Carlow board was very dismissive of the competition, even though it was designed for counties like his own.
I can't see radical change anytime soon; apathy is endemic throughout the Association from top to bottom. PLayers who have no realistic chance of winning an AI in the past, now find themselves obliged to ramp up their training and they already have too much on their plate as things were.
Dublin are professional in most senses, others are trying to keep up and right down to the bottom of the pile , players are being forced to devote more and more time to their county's cause.
For many, the sacrifice is too much, because with all counties doing the same, the relative pecking order remains unchanged.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: AZOffaly on January 11, 2017, 09:18:52 AM
Is there anything realistically that could be done to look at this issue from another perspective. Can we try and minimise the gaps that are there and make it competitive through some sort of enforced parity, a lá the NFL. Obviously the NFL has a draft system, and free agency, which we can't have, but they also have a system of revenue sharing, salary caps and other elements designed to make sure the richer franchises don't get too far ahead of the rest of them, purely for financial reasons.

Would it be worth the GAA trying to enforce rules about spending on county teams, coming up with rules related to sharing sponsorship revenue, capping backroom team sizes, etc etc?

Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: shark on January 11, 2017, 09:30:06 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 11, 2017, 09:18:52 AM
Is there anything realistically that could be done to look at this issue from another perspective. Can we try and minimise the gaps that are there and make it competitive through some sort of enforced parity, a lá the NFL. Obviously the NFL has a draft system, and free agency, which we can't have, but they also have a system of revenue sharing, salary caps and other elements designed to make sure the richer franchises don't get too far ahead of the rest of them, purely for financial reasons.

Would it be worth the GAA trying to enforce rules about spending on county teams, coming up with rules related to sharing sponsorship revenue, capping backroom team sizes, etc etc?

Hard to do though with the amount of money pumped in from outside the system. Private money is private! Some county boards don't see much of the money that goes in to their senior teams. I've seen a first hand view of this recently. County board, and as an extension Croke Park, clueless to what was been spent. It wasn't their money. And then the indo write a column on what each county spent as if they actually have a clue.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: magpie seanie on January 11, 2017, 10:01:34 AM
Quote from: Aaron Boone on January 10, 2017, 08:32:12 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on January 10, 2017, 06:57:07 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on January 10, 2017, 12:36:55 PM
Great to see that Ross Donovan has reversed the trend and has come out of inter-county retirement.  One of the toughest defenders in the country and its great to see him back.
Did he officially retire or take a year out? Sligos neighbors Donegal are going through a major transitional phase with I think 8 of last years panel either retired or taking time out.
Do Sligo and Donegal have a border? Not important anyway.

There's a thin sliver of Leitrim that divides us, only a few miles so the Laythrums can have access to the sea!
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: AZOffaly on January 11, 2017, 10:05:16 AM
True, but surely there's some sort of central investment, spending money on auditors etc, that go around looking at how counties operate, and with the power to report anomalies. Similar to how the NCAA in America works when it is looking at money going where it shouldn't.

At the moment we have no rules about this, that I'm aware of, other than not being allowed pay players or managers. There's nothing that says Kerry can't spend €1m per year on their county team, or that they can only have a support team of 1 dietician, 1 S&C coach, 2 physios etc.

I am wary of this sort of suggestion, because I believe that it's a good thing that the players are looked after as well as possible, but on the other hand, it is an unfair advantage if the other teams can't afford to do it.

MY biggest bug bear is money invested in coaching at development level, and I'd also like to see that balanced up.

If we can get to a situation where the only advantage is population, and that a player in Leitrim gets the same advantages as a player in Dublin, then at least the sense of hopelessness might dissipate a bit, and games might be a bit more competitive. There's always been non-competitive games, but there's always been hope. My concern is that the very elite group are going to pull away, and the clamour for some sort of tiered championship increases because of the very lopsided games, and the hope of the good run, or the provincial title, disappears altogether.

It's just a thought. I think we can clean up our calendar, and our fixtures, without a doubt. But in terms of trying to redress the competitive balance, I just wonder if we can try to level the external factors playing field, so that only inherent population advantages are all that you are battling against. Fighting against a team with a bigger pick is part of the GAA history. Fighting against a team with a bigger pick, who also spends millions of euros in underage coaching AND in preparing and looking after their senior team, is a new enough phenomenon.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: J70 on January 11, 2017, 02:20:41 PM
I understand there's a lot of fear of change out there and sentimentality and vested interests in the provincial championships, but could one of these structured seasons, with set club and county weekends and shortened intercounty competitions, not be tried out for one or two years to see how it works? You can always go back...

Yes, if the provincial championships were shelved, it would mean Tyrone forgoing a couple of Ulster titles given their probable near-future status as best Ulster team, but don't they and Dublin and Kerry and Mayo have eyes on the big prize?
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: AZOffaly on January 11, 2017, 02:25:01 PM
You see I think with a bit of imaginative thinking you CAN preserve the provincials as part of the season, and still shorten the overall competition. I think the Qualifier system needs to go, the League needs to be made more important in terms of seeding, and the Provincials should be straight knockout with only provincial finalists making it into a All ireland Quarter Final. (No qualifiers round 1, 2 3 or 4).
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: J70 on January 11, 2017, 02:31:51 PM
Of course. My point is less about the final structure than the inertia in actually trying to get it changed. We've been discussing this shit for years.

Why not say we'll do something in 2018, commit to it? Then look at the various proposals and vote upon an option to try out. There's been plenty of decent ones proposed and 9 or 10 months to discuss and analyze and choose.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: AZOffaly on January 11, 2017, 02:41:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 11, 2017, 02:31:51 PM
Of course. My point is less about the final structure than the inertia in actually trying to get it changed. We've been discussing this shit for years.

Why not say we'll do something in 2018, commit to it? Then look at the various proposals and vote upon an option to try out. There's been plenty of decent ones proposed and 9 or 10 months to discuss and analyze and choose.

True, but as I say (like a broken record I'm sure) I'd like consensus on what the problem is that is being solved. A lot of people have different ideas about current issues, and some people like Zulu have many issues that they feel would be resolved with a back to the drawing board approach. The 'what would we do if we were starting out today' argument.

They are all valid viewpoints, but unless you have a fairly widely held understanding of what exactly it is you are trying to achieve, relative to what is there now, you are never going to get something done.

Not wanting to speak for Zulu, but his preferred scenario would probably introduce tiered championships and do away with the Provincial Championships. We know straight away that they are both suggestions which will not be popular with a lot of people. So what's the point in proposing something like that. Most people don't feel that weaker counties in Sam is a problem, nor do most people feel the provincial championships are a problem.

Unless you can have a commonly accepted problem definition, you will find it very hard to get ANY change accepted other than putting lipstick on the pig, which is what the one currently being discussed is in my opinion (The 8 team round robin thing). I think there's a lot of blue skying of ideas which people think would be great, and then retrofitting them to what's there at the moment to point out the issues it would fix, even if there is no agreement that they are the actual issues in the first place.

I'd like a committee set up, featuring players, coaches, adminstrators and maybe even media now that we have a significant media rights bidding cycle. Let those people be charged , not with proposing a new solution, but with gathering a consensus as to what is actually wrong. Then you propose a solution AFTER you have common understanding of the problem.

Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Fuzzman on January 11, 2017, 03:21:40 PM
Yes I agree with that AZ as quite often we are all coming at it from different view points and want different things.
I mean Dublin, Kerry and recently Mayo nearly make the semis every year and are probably not too keen to change things much. Most Ulster teams would prefer a much fairer way to get to the semifinal stage especially when they look at Kerry last year playing Tipp in the Munster final and Clare in the quarterfinal.

I would imagine in Leinster, if teams didn't have to play Dublin then it could be quite a competitive provincial championship. You could maybe say the same for Munster as Clare and Tipperary improved quite a bit last year and Tipp showed they could beat Cork.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Zulu on January 11, 2017, 05:57:16 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 11, 2017, 02:41:49 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 11, 2017, 02:31:51 PM
Of course. My point is less about the final structure than the inertia in actually trying to get it changed. We've been discussing this shit for years.

Why not say we'll do something in 2018, commit to it? Then look at the various proposals and vote upon an option to try out. There's been plenty of decent ones proposed and 9 or 10 months to discuss and analyze and choose.

True, but as I say (like a broken record I'm sure) I'd like consensus on what the problem is that is being solved. A lot of people have different ideas about current issues, and some people like Zulu have many issues that they feel would be resolved with a back to the drawing board approach. The 'what would we do if we were starting out today' argument.

They are all valid viewpoints, but unless you have a fairly widely held understanding of what exactly it is you are trying to achieve, relative to what is there now, you are never going to get something done.

Not wanting to speak for Zulu, but his preferred scenario would probably introduce tiered championships and do away with the Provincial Championships. We know straight away that they are both suggestions which will not be popular with a lot of people. So what's the point in proposing something like that. Most people don't feel that weaker counties in Sam is a problem, nor do most people feel the provincial championships are a problem.

Unless you can have a commonly accepted problem definition, you will find it very hard to get ANY change accepted other than putting lipstick on the pig, which is what the one currently being discussed is in my opinion (The 8 team round robin thing). I think there's a lot of blue skying of ideas which people think would be great, and then retrofitting them to what's there at the moment to point out the issues it would fix, even if there is no agreement that they are the actual issues in the first place.

I'd like a committee set up, featuring players, coaches, adminstrators and maybe even media now that we have a significant media rights bidding cycle. Let those people be charged , not with proposing a new solution, but with gathering a consensus as to what is actually wrong. Then you propose a solution AFTER you have common understanding of the problem.

AZ, my preferred solution is not tiered championships. My changes are removing the provincials, not accommodating dual players or multiple level players. My solution means that you could provide 10+ competitive games for all minor, U21 and senior IC players in both codes, at the same time, in a structured manner.

This would solve the issue of player availability and a proper season for club players.

Eliminate burn out concerns.

Give all players a majority of games they can compete in.

Provide way more competitive games and flow to the season that would build momentum rather than the 'it only starts in August' talk.

Appeal to sponsors much more as we have way more TV exposure.

Bring far more football and hurling to provincial towns and the local community. The Dubs in Killarney or Castlebar on a Saturday night in a big game would be huge. Or what about Tyrone in Thurles in a similar game, would that help you promote the game in Tipp?

With respect AZ, you have said with a bit of imagination we can keep the provincials but I think you are completely wrong. They are four uneven groups and half the teams in them have no chance of ever winning them while increasingly the top teams aren't too bothered. AS J70 said, why not give something like I've proposed a 3 year trial and see how it goes? Bottom line for me is that the current system is hindering clubs massively but not doing much for the IC game either. Why we are so attached to that system is a mystery to me.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: J70 on January 11, 2017, 06:13:22 PM
The conflict between club and county and the resulting effect on the GAA timetable is the key issue/problem for me. Players being caught between both, with the club scene the inevitable losers.

Run the county scene from March/April until the August bank holiday as someone suggested. Fit whatever format you want into that. If you want to preserve the provincial series, fine, but it should not take nine weeks to play out the Ulster championship, usually a mere eight games.

Run the club leagues without the county players until then also, then run the championships once the county scene is over. Finish the AI club series in November.

A lot of it pretty much happens already, but at least the months of August and September and a bit of certainty and regularity could be introduced to the life of club personnel.

On the issue of players opting not to play county, any solution has to come down from above. Right now we're in an arms race with players having to ascend to near-professional standards for too little return. Either impose restrictions on the demands made on them in terms of training and dedication, or make either the schedule worth their while or have tiered competitions where they have a realistic chance. We can't have it every way.
Title: Re: Intercounty apathy a worrying trend
Post by: Rossfan on January 11, 2017, 06:44:23 PM
In 2017 for example there are 27 weekends from 1/2 April to 30 Sep/1 Oct.
Most years would have a similar situation.
Surely it's possible to designate say 8 weekends as IC football only, 8 as exclusivelying club only and 7 as IC hurling only. Still leaves 4 for a mix of all or any of the 3.
No matter what Championship structures in any  of the 3 categories they can surely be accommodated in that timetable. And club/ county Championships can go in tandem during the best months of the year.