Congress

[BennyCake]

A slight majority of the delegates voted for the Proposal.
Is that in effect the GAA admitting that the current AI SF Championship has "gone wrong"?

The question should be: why has it gone wrong?

The why is the bit nobody wants to address.

That's too hard.

And yet: Monaghan - with a population of just 60k, have established themselves as a top six team. They got into the eight team Division 1 and stayed there, at just the right time, just as the gaps between Division 1 and the rest started to open up. They found themselves on the right side of the great divide in standards.

If Monaghan, with a population of 60k, can regularly compete with Dublin given the same diet of ultra-competitive football - and they generally have competed - the argument for cutting most of the counties of Ireland out of inter-county football and setting up a new ultra-elitist structure falls flat on its face.

The argument is simple - and yet undeniably true - you give teams the same diet of regular competitive football in the NFL. You abolish the 8 team Division 1.

And then you watch the gaps narrow.

The 8 team D1 is a huge part of the problem
But so is the inequality in training regimes. There was more competition when things were haphazard.
With semi professionalism there is none.

The 8 team D1 drives gaps in professionalism. It's chicken and egg. Monaghan will train in a professional manner because they know they have to train in a professional manner to keep their place in D1.

Sligo or Wexford don't, because you don't have to train in a professional manner to play in D4.

If Sligo or Wexford were in Division 2A or 2B, they have a realistic aim - get into the top two of the eight team Division they're in, and they're in Division 1A or 1B the next year.

And because the quality of 1A and 1B is diluted a bit compared to the current 8 team Division 1, they then have a decent chance of actually staying in 1A or 1B if they get promoted.

The level you play at will drive how professional you are.

But currently, the six regulars in D1 have driven standards so high that the teams coming out of D2, your Roscommons, Meaths, Kildares and Cavans etc., invariably can't live with D1 football, and go straight back down. They can't establish themselves and it drives demoralisation.

When the element of chaos was introduced by the pandemic, straight knockout football in winter, weird things started happening - Cork beating Kerry, Tipp beating Cork, Cavan winning Ulster.

That wouldn't have happened had it been a normal summer championship coming off the back of a normal D1,D2,D3,D4 NFL season, because the big boys would have been too well prepared and primed.

Yes, Kerry are regular div 1. Cork in Div 2 for a few seasons. Cavan and Tipp hovering between 2-3 usually, but now in Div 4. So the league isn't an accurate measure, because in a one off knockout  game, these counties  can compete.

Cork might beat Kerry in a 7 game league style championship, but you know Kerry will do more than enough over 7 games because of their squad size and quality of players. I think it's brilliant when counties break through, Westmeath, Tipp, Cavan, Laois etc, but what hope do they have in an elitist competition like Proposal B

[Derry Optimist]

Unfortunately as the current GAA Championship is based on an inherently unequal system ie the Provincial system there are going to be anomalies in every revised system.The best we can hope for is to minimise those anomalies.

As every county yesterday said that they were for change we have to take them at their word.It would seem to me that the two biggest bones of contention re Proposal B were that there was no link for the Provincial winners to join the proposed League championsip stucture which according to Tom Parsons, in an excellent interview yesterday, is sacrosanct.

The second major problem with Proposal B is that the team which finishes 6th in Division One would not qualify for the knock out stages.One would think that there are enough brains in the GAA to accommodate those changes whilst still maintaining  the other main core principles of Proposal B.
What is important now is for all sides to gather around the table immediately, thresh out the compromise as I have suggested and have one agreed motion in place for Congress.

Players who are at the heart of this, particularly in a the three lower division, will not take much more and will soon walk away. After all they are the ones who work the hardest and deserve the greatest respect.

It is vitally important that the GAA OFFICIALS IN EVERY COUNTY, recognise this.Otherwise, we will have a totally disaffected playing population and therefore a lower quality competition and less  supporters in all grades in all provinces.
Thus the need for a strong positive leadership from the top table in Croke Park and in all four provinces is vital.There is no room for the totally unreasonable and nasty, negative comments made by spokesmen in three provinces during the last few weeks.

[Rossfan]

Two Provincial Secretaries showed their true nasty colours alright.
Despite being thrown as a take it or leave it motion, without any  official attempt to sell it until an 11th hour endorsement and with some illogical flaws, B still got a majority of the votes.
There's an appetite for "change" but to what and how long till something which can command 60% is arrived at?
Meanwhile we'll have 29 Provincial games of which about 10 will be "vibrant" , majority of games played in February and March with a few games spread over April and May and the "elite"  , (who shouldn't be allowed play at all in Bennycake world) then playing on in June and July.

[Eire90]

how bout a playoff between 5th and 6th the loser is out

[seafoid]

Two Provincial Secretaries showed their true nasty colours alright.
Despite being thrown as a take it or leave it motion, without any  official attempt to sell it until an 11th hour endorsement and with some illogical flaws, B still got a majority of the votes.
There's an appetite for "change" but to what and how long till something which can command 60% is arrived at?
Meanwhile we'll have 29 Provincial games of which about 10 will be "vibrant" , majority of games played in February and March with a few games spread over April and May and the "elite"  , (who shouldn't be allowed play at all in Bennycake world) then playing on in June and July.

The GAA can't go back to the status quo ante. The pandemic kiboshed the Super 8s and they aren't coming back either.
If the proposal isn't good enough they will have to keep iterating away until it is.

[Rossfan]

They're going back to 2017 but with Tailteann Cup added.

[sid waddell]

The second major problem with Proposal B is that the team which finishes 6th in Division One would not qualify for the knock out stages.

This is an unsolvable problem as long as you have an eight team Division 1 proposed for the Championship.

If you have six teams qualifying from an eight team Division 1, that tips the balance far too much towards there being a load of pointless, poorly attended football matches, which simultaneously increase the imbalance between Division 1 teams and the rest.

The top teams coast through. There is little jeopardy, it becomes effectively a warm up for the top three or four teams. That means you don't have sporting integrity when it comes to the battle for 6th/7th in the latter stages of the competition because too many other teams are already through by that stage.

I would argue five teams qualifying from an eight team group is still too much and still leads to too much pointless football.

For those who want a League as Championship system - and I don't - I'm tellin' yis now, an eight team Division 1 is a complete no no.

Any League as Championship has to be 1A/1B/2A/2B, with seven of your quarter-finalists coming from the two Division 1 groups (top 3 in each plus the winner of a play-off between the two 4th placed teams in each D1 group) and one quarter-final place for the winner of the Division 2 competition (Winner 2A v Winner 2B would play off).

You would have genuine competition in all divisions and genuine jeopardy in that competition.

I don't agree with that proposal - I would prefer to see that format played as the NFL in spring - but there is at least a decent argument for it to be used as the championship format.

Which there wasn't with Proposal B.

[Eire90]

kind of fed up with all the format talk now think ill take time out for a few months at least

[Eire90]

Just have two open draw knockout championships per year its the simplest way but no thats to simple and not enough money for them

[sid waddell]

Think about it.

Division 1 for 2022 is:
Dublin
Kerry
Tyrone
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Armagh
Kildare

Six qualify for the knockout stage.

Dublin and Kerry coast through, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal probably do too.

Why? Because the three "weak teams", Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare, get targeted as the teams to beat by the big boys. They're the big boys' "bankers" for wins.

So the only topic of interest becomes which of Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare manages to nab sixth place.

Dublin and Kerry go straight to an All-Ireland quarter-final, where they will meet the two weakest quarter-finalists. They coast through those.

Under this format, Dublin and Kerry's entire 2022 season consists of: a load of boring warm ups, lots of shadow boxing, then two matches to win the All-Ireland.

[BennyCake]

kind of fed up with all the format talk now think ill take time out for a few months at least

Just have two open draw knockout championships per year its the simplest way but no thats to simple and not enough money for them

I thought you were taking a break? 

[From the Bunker]

Think about it.

Division 1 for 2022 is:
Dublin
Kerry
Tyrone
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Armagh
Kildare

Six qualify for the knockout stage.

Dublin and Kerry coast through, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal probably do too.

Why? Because the three "weak teams", Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare, get targeted as the teams to beat by the big boys. They're the big boys' "bankers" for wins.

So the only topic of interest becomes which of Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare manages to nab sixth place.

Dublin and Kerry go straight to an All-Ireland quarter-final, where they will meet the two weakest quarter-finalists. They coast through those.

Under this format, Dublin and Kerry's entire 2022 season consists of: a load of boring warm ups, lots of shadow boxing, then two matches to win the All-Ireland.

You hit the nail on the head there Sid. Good Post.

The more things change the more they stay the same

[BennyCake]

Think about it.

Division 1 for 2022 is:
Dublin
Kerry
Tyrone
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Armagh
Kildare

Six qualify for the knockout stage.

Dublin and Kerry coast through, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal probably do too.

Why? Because the three "weak teams", Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare, get targeted as the teams to beat by the big boys. They're the big boys' "bankers" for wins.

So the only topic of interest becomes which of Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare manages to nab sixth place.

Dublin and Kerry go straight to an All-Ireland quarter-final, where they will meet the two weakest quarter-finalists. They coast through those.

Under this format, Dublin and Kerry's entire 2022 season consists of: a load of boring warm ups, lots of shadow boxing, then two matches to win the All-Ireland.

Yes, and in normal years, that'd be the likes of Westmeath, Fermanagh, Louth or Down (likely Cavan or Tipp this year, but last years NFL was a bit of a farce).

So, Dublin or Kerry v one of those few counties, resulting in a proper stuffing. So how does that solve the issue of big hammering? The Div3/4 winners getting a place is only a token gesture. A Benny Hill-style pat on the head, now slink off up the road, and leave the real football to the big boys.

[seafoid]

Maybe UEFA could offer to come up with a rating for each county to see how big the gaps are.

[seafoid]

Spillane is a tool

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/1024/1255662-spillane-wants-gaa-to-act-quickly-on-football-change/

Let's be realistic, society is very unequal. Communism and socialism were great ideas - that everybody should have equality - but they failed. Sport is a mirror image of society, where there's strong and weak, big and small etc."No matter what system you bring in, you're still going to get hammerings."