Congress

[thewobbler]

APM.

Here's the rub.

Option B. If nothing else, allows the Association's blue riband competition to break free from the shackles of an unequal provincially-led driven format that was designed to suit proximity in a bygone era.

Once that clean break happens, then the GAA will have an opportunity to look at models and formats.

But while it remains, we won't. We are just stuck. To a bygone concept.

When you rail against Option B, you rail against change. It's that simple.

[DuffleKing]

Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:

• Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
• Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
• All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Why is point 1 here relevant to evolving to a structure of best fit for everyone?

[APM]

Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:

• Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
• Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
• All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2. 

[thewobbler]

So let's make sure that everyone who has made a decent account of themselves the previous year, gets a free pass into the latter stages of the competition this year?

Is the purpose of your ideal completion to reward mediocrity? Or is it a mad hope that if you add enough mediocre teams to a competition, then one will magically see its standards rise?

[Eire90]

Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:

• Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
• Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
• All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.

every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland

[APM]

So let's make sure that everyone who has made a decent account of themselves the previous year, gets a free pass into the latter stages of the competition this year?

Is the purpose of your ideal completion to reward mediocrity? Or is it a mad hope that if you add enough mediocre teams to a competition, then one will magically see its standards rise?

At least those teams have been playing at Division 1 level that year - surely you acknowledge there are often fine lines between relegation and staying in Division 1.  Not that long since Cork were relegated on 6 points from Division 1. Donegal, Mayo and Monaghan also finished on 6 points in the same year.  In the same year, Monaghan and Cork wouldn't have qualified for the AI Series on score difference. 

[APM]

Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:

• Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
• Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
• All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.

every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland

Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team. 

[Rossfan]

We keep hearing that the Provincial Championships will die if they're not linked as Qualifiers to the AI series .
Doesn't say much for them if they can't stand on their own 2 feet!
The National League had stood on its own feet for over 90 years and indeed in recent years has become the best competition with more relevance to most Counties than Provincials or the AI.

On the substantive issue I'm in favour of B as it's the best option on offer.
Of course it's not perfect but time to bite the bullet.

PS excluding 6th in D1 makes for a more competitive competition.
Take the hurling..  if 4 of the 5 in Munster and Leinster were going through it would dilute the thing altogether.

[tiempo]

Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:

• Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
• Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
• All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.

every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland

Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team.

Relegated from the race for Sam, simples

[dublin7]

Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:

• Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
• Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
• All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.

every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland

Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team.

As they're not good enough. Why should a team be rewarded just for avoiding relegation? You'd be playing the league games not decide who gets through but simply just to see who gets relegated. Maybe offer them a play off for the final spot against the Div 2 side if you want but if you can't finish above your rivals in the league why should you deserve a place in knock out stages?

[APM]

Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:

• Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
• Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
• All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.

every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland

Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team.

As they're not good enough. Why should a team be rewarded just for avoiding relegation? You'd be playing the league games not decide who gets through but simply just to see who gets relegated. Maybe offer them a play off for the final spot against the Div 2 side if you want but if you can't finish above your rivals in the league why should you deserve a place in knock out stages?

Your response reads like Option B is written in tablets of stone, but it is completely arbitrary.  So only the top 5 are good enough to compete for Sam, but sixth is not.  However, the 3rd placed team in Division 2 (let's say Westmeath) gets into a preliminary quarter final against the Division 3 winner (let's say Louth) to compete for a place in the All Ireland QF.  Whilst a team like Monaghan, who has been competitive in Division 1 and has stayed in it, is dumped out of the competition.  Who has the better chance of being competitive in the Quarter Finals.  A team that has been competitive in Division 1 or one that couldn't even get out of Division 2. 

Edit:  If your objective is to make it to the AIQF, you actually have a better chance if you are in Division 2 than in Division 1.  Division 1 will be dog-eat-dog and Division 2 is a much easier route.  Chances are you'll be hammered when you get there because you've only being playing Division 2 football. 

[APM]

Someone explain to me why the 3rd best team in Division two has a straightforward route to the AIQF (by beating a team in a lower division) and the sixth best team in Division 1, playing against the best teams in the country and has been competitive enough to stay in the division, has no route to qualification. 

[thewobbler]

Someone explain to me why the 3rd best team in Division two has a straightforward route to the AIQF (by beating a team in a lower division) and the sixth best team in Division 1, playing against the best teams in the country and has been competitive enough to stay in the division, has no route to qualification.

Someone explain to me why a team that finished outside the top half of the league during competition stage 1, deserves a place in competition stage 2.

——

Get your head around the concept that the league is part of the championship.

It's much easier to accept how things could unfold, when you accept that performance is measured fron day 1 of the competition.

[APM]

Wobbler, you have been on this board a long time and I have a lot of time for you, but you are avoiding the question. 

Someone explain to me why the 3rd best team in Division two has a straightforward route to the AIQF (by beating a team in a lower division) and the sixth best team in Division 1, playing against the best teams in the country and has been competitive enough to stay in the division, has no route to qualification. 

In general:

If the problem that you are trying to solve is the easy route to the business end of the Championship for the top teams in Munster and Leinster, I can see how it does that. 

If you are trying to close they yawning gap between the top 3 or 4 and the rest, then I'm afraid this will only make the gap wider. 

If you are trying to put a stop to Dublin, Kerry and Tyrone doling out hammerings to Wicklows, Waterfords and Antrims, then it will achieve that if you exclude the meaningless pre-season provincial tournaments and anyway, the the strong teams will probably field a second string in these competitions.  However, Option B builds in the guarantee of one sided games at the business end of the championship. Take 2019, you would have had Fermanagh and Westmeath slugging it out in a preliminary round to qualify for an AIQF against Dublin potentially.

If you are trying to do away with the provincial championships, well done.  This achieves just that.  It won't be missed most probably anywhere but Ulster, but then again, most of the delegates voting on this aren't going to prioritise Ulster. 

[Rossfan]

The wise old elders decision makers

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40725921.html