Congress

[Rossfan]

Works at Club level in all 4 sports.
Works at County level in Hurling, Camogie and Ladies football.

[sid waddell]

Sid,

A lot of what you said is correct but we need to modernise the game. Times have changed, people only have to take their phones out of their pockets now to be entertained or watch a premier league game, GAA match or latest Netflix hit or play online games with people the other side of the world that they've never met. You have to draw them out and cater for all.

You mention 2017. Why was 2017 changed to super 8s. Cause the last number of years attendances and games where falling off. It didn't happen over night. It gradually dropped, people found other ways to spend their time and GAA didn't match up.

Competitiveness of games a major part of this. Your last paragraph falls apart in my eyes. Do you really think that 32 counties can be competitive at same level? And shared coaching, sponsorship distribution etc will help that. No harm but that's a pie in the sky idea. Counties won't even share team news never mind coaching expertise and money.

The Senior Intercounty championship is the only competition in the whole of GAA that we obsess with all counties been competitive and competing at the same level. Let teams get success and compete at their own level and grow that way. It works well at club level. Time the Senior county game got to same tune.

You see you're setting up a straw man there. I never said that 32 counties could be on the same level of competitiveness. Strong counties and weak counties will always exist. But 32 counties can definitely have a much greater degree of competitiveness between each other than exists now. 12 or 15 years ago Longford could play Dublin or Kerry and have a decent hope of putting up a good fight. Can they now?

"Modernise" is a buzzword.

The bottom line is if you structure inter-county in an elitist way - and since 2008 that has been the case - and will be to a much greater extent again under Proposal B -  it becomes only for the elite. That will mean about two counties, three if you're lucky.

The rest might as well not bother.

If you take the championship out of its natural time frame of summer and into spring, you're worsening the weather conditions it will played in, and allied to a much more predictable product played at a time of year when television sporting counter attractions are at their height, you are telling your audience to get stuffed.

If that's "modernisation", you can keep it.

Surely "modernisation" should entail greater competitiveness and more and better occasions - not less?

[BennyCake]

if provincial councils ever went would the club championship become a 32 team knockout beetween county champions kind of like the old eurpean cup as a novelty that would be cool seeing the tyrone  champions having to travel down to kerry or somewhere.

Can't see that happening. Imagine the amount of money it would cost a club side from say, Antrim to go to Cork for a fixture.

[Louther]

Can't say I agree with any of that and why is "modernisation" quoted.  Modernise was correct and if you not doing that you going backwards, at best standing still.

The championship will be played in April, May and into June now. Ideal time with the quality of Intercounty pitches and for spectators

Comparable populations? Wrong

Should have competitiveness across the board - how? And none of your gimmicks of sharing resources be it money or coaching. How are Wexford footballers suddenly going to get competitive.

Retain possible shocks - unless it's straight knockout the this isn't happening. Teams can lose twice as it is. Why not have big teams playing each other for league positions and build on shocks that way. Have an early loss where Dublin travel to Kerry and lose knowing they've to go to Mayo in a few weeks and build pressure on them. May or may not happen but there is certainly nothing to put pressure on them in normal year with supe 8s and two games at "home".

And why won't a two tier all Ireland work you've not addressed that when it works in every other level and sport. Should Louth hurlers get a run at Kilkenny again and if not, why shouldn't the Kilkenny hurlers send up their coaches and money to help take them down.

[Rossfan]

It's not as if 25 Counties got to AI Finals last 30 years with 20 different winners.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the actual figures are 11 and 9??

[BennyCake]

You put the structures in place to enable that competitveness – a more equitable NFL format, sponsorship redistribution, better sharing of coaching expertise, and you keep the format that enables shocks - the on the day one. You clip the wings of the strong and help the weak. You don't abandon them. That's what Proposal B does.


Yeah I'd agree with that. Cork beat Kerry last year, then Tipp beat Cork on the day. If Munster was a league format (as proposed), would Tipp end up as champions? Unlikely. But on the day, knockout format, they did. Same as Cavan. Would they have won Ulster having to beat all  of Donegal Tyrone Armagh and Monaghan in a league format ? Again, unlikely.

Look at the FA cup. You always had lower teams reaching semis and finals. Even winning it. Sunderland 92, Chesterfield 97, Luton 94, Wycombe 2001. All lower division teams, who ended up in semis/finals. Put them in a league with Liverpool Arsenal Man Utd week in week out, and they would never survive. But in a one-off fixture, you just never know.

The All Ireland needs knockout games. Not this league bullshit.

[sid waddell]

Can't say I agree with any of that and why is "modernisation" quoted.  Modernise was correct and if you not doing that you going backwards, at best standing still.

The championship will be played in April, May and into June now. Ideal time with the quality of Intercounty pitches and for spectators

Comparable populations? Wrong

Should have competitiveness across the board - how? And none of your gimmicks of sharing resources be it money or coaching. How are Wexford footballers suddenly going to get competitive.

Retain possible shocks - unless it's straight knockout the this isn't happening. Teams can lose twice as it is. Why not have big teams playing each other for league positions and build on shocks that way. Have an early loss where Dublin travel to Kerry and lose knowing they've to go to Mayo in a few weeks and build pressure on them. May or may not happen but there is certainly nothing to put pressure on them in normal year with supe 8s and two games at "home".

And why won't a two tier all Ireland work you've not addressed that when it works in every other level and sport. Should Louth hurlers get a run at Kilkenny again and if not, why shouldn't the Kilkenny hurlers send up their coaches and money to help take them down.

Apart from Dublin and Cork, most counties have reasonably comparable populations - ie. it should be possible for most counties to beat each other on a given day.

And Dublin and Cork have some mitigating factors against them - in Dublin GAA is a minority pursuit, in Cork football has always been second fiddle to hurling.

Monaghan have consistently been a top six team for a decade now with a population of 60k. If they can do it, there's little excuse for others.

But over a longer competition, and especially if its the championship, imbalances will become amplified. When it's on the day, they can often be masked and overcome.

Dublin and Kerry will coast through every year. The rest will have to fight to get through. Come the knockout stages, Dublin and Kerry will be in much better shape.

For a two tier competition to have any hope of working you would have to entirely separate it from the top tier, and that won't wash.

[sid waddell]

You put the structures in place to enable that competitveness – a more equitable NFL format, sponsorship redistribution, better sharing of coaching expertise, and you keep the format that enables shocks - the on the day one. You clip the wings of the strong and help the weak. You don't abandon them. That's what Proposal B does.


Yeah I'd agree with that. Cork beat Kerry last year, then Tipp beat Cork on the day. If Munster was a league format (as proposed), would Tipp end up as champions? Unlikely. But on the day, knockout format, they did. Same as Cavan. Would they have won Ulster having to beat all  of Donegal Tyrone Armagh and Monaghan? Again, unlikely.

Look at the FA cup. You always had lower teams reaching semis and finals. Even winning it. Sunderland 92, Chesterfield 97, Luton 94, Wycombe 2001. All lower division teams, who ended up in semis/finals. Put them in a league with Liverpool Arsenal Man Utd week in week out, and they would never survive. But in a one-off fixture, you just never know.

The All Ireland needs knockout games. Not this league bullshit.

Sure even pre-season "provincial championships" are round robin.

Who wants that?

What is the point of Kerry, who will be feasting on a diet of Division 1 championship football every year, playing Waterford and Limerick and Clare and Tipp in the muck of February, before playing the inevitable "final" against Cork?

Who will go to these games?

Like, with an O'Byrne Cup knockout match, you at least know what you're getting. Largely second string teams facing off against each other in the muck. It doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't. It's an excuse to get out of the house on a January Sunday afternoon. Nobody is pretending it's the actual Leinster championship.

[sid waddell]

Should have competitiveness across the board - how? And none of your gimmicks of sharing resources be it money or coaching. How are Wexford footballers suddenly going to get competitive.

How did Wexford get competitive in the 2000s? From being exposed to better teams in the league. They got out of a 16 team Division 2, and because the jump to a 16 team Division 1 was not as great - because the top 8 teams were split and not allowed gallop away in terms of standard, Wexford were able to learn the ropes and start to compete with good teams.

And why won't a two tier all Ireland work you've not addressed that when it works in every other level and sport. Should Louth hurlers get a run at Kilkenny again and if not, why shouldn't the Kilkenny hurlers send up their coaches and money to help take them down.

When Antrim and Down were exposed to better teams in the late 80s and early 90s, they did compete. Antrim reached the All-Ireland final and nearly beat Kilkenny in another semi-final, they seriously rattled Cork in another. Down rattled Cork in an All-Ireland semi-final and beat Kilkenny in Nowlan Park in the league. Even Derry rattled Offaly in an All-Ireland quarter-final. They can't compete now because they're far too siloed into poor standard hurling.

For them to ever have a hope of competing at any sort of decent level again, there would have to be a format which ensured that they got a decent run at better teams for an extended period of years.

[Captain Obvious]

You put the structures in place to enable that competitveness – a more equitable NFL format, sponsorship redistribution, better sharing of coaching expertise, and you keep the format that enables shocks - the on the day one. You clip the wings of the strong and help the weak. You don't abandon them. That's what Proposal B does.


Yeah I'd agree with that. Cork beat Kerry last year, then Tipp beat Cork on the day. If Munster was a league format (as proposed), would Tipp end up as champions? Unlikely. But on the day, knockout format, they did. Same as Cavan. Would they have won Ulster having to beat all  of Donegal Tyrone Armagh and Monaghan? Again, unlikely.

Look at the FA cup. You always had lower teams reaching semis and finals. Even winning it. Sunderland 92, Chesterfield 97, Luton 94, Wycombe 2001. All lower division teams, who ended up in semis/finals. Put them in a league with Liverpool Arsenal Man Utd week in week out, and they would never survive. But in a one-off fixture, you just never know.

The All Ireland needs knockout games. Not this league bullshit.

Sure even pre-season "provincial championships" are round robin.

Who wants that?

What is the point of Kerry, who will be feasting on a diet of Division 1 championship football every year, playing Waterford and Limerick and Clare and Tipp in the muck of February, before playing the inevitable "final" against Cork?

Who will go to these games?

Like, with an O'Byrne Cup knockout match, you at least know what you're getting. Largely second string teams facing off against each other in the muck. It doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't. It's an excuse to get out of the house on a January Sunday afternoon. Nobody is pretending it's the actual Leinster championship.

Loads of top brass Gaa figures especially Leinster heads wants to get rid of the provincial championships however they know they can't right now so plan B is to play them in February, March in a league format which will eventually kill them off.

[Louther]

No one goes to Munster championship games anyway! You get a few at the final but the rest are ignored!

Kerry men would tell you they hardly count their Munster medals. Dublin are embarrassed collecting the Leinster Trophy these days and I doubt it's even celebrated. Ulster counties make the most of theirs but the rest of the provinces are dead at county level. Stone dead and you can't deny that.

You'll get league/championship now and all the games you'll want. We've often tipped to see who Armagh or Monaghan are playing or even into Dublin games in the league when they are appealing. And that's just league. The same guys won't go to Louth championship matches as it's going only one way. Give them competitive games and they'll go. We'd hope to be going that way anyway but it's a long road and provincial titles aren't Hartes goal. The league is and all div 3 and 4 teams are the same plus some in 2.

Monaghan a great example of coming from 3 to win an ulster. But two years before that they where Div1 and competing in Croke Park with Kerry. So them in Div 3 was the exception but as a small county they've had to put serious effort to stay in Div1 and for no reward come championship. It's actually probably hurt them having to play league at such a level. They'd be happy in Div1, finishing top 4 with an all Ireland quarter to look forward to. Serious reward for their efforts and clear sight at an all Ireland.

[Louther]

Should have competitiveness across the board - how? And none of your gimmicks of sharing resources be it money or coaching. How are Wexford footballers suddenly going to get competitive.

How did Wexford get competitive in the 2000s? From being exposed to better teams in the league. They got out of a 16 team Division 2, and because the jump to a 16 team Division 1 was not as great - because the top 8 teams were split and not allowed gallop away in terms of standard, Wexford were able to learn the ropes and start to compete with good teams.

And why won't a two tier all Ireland work you've not addressed that when it works in every other level and sport. Should Louth hurlers get a run at Kilkenny again and if not, why shouldn't the Kilkenny hurlers send up their coaches and money to help take them down.

When Antrim and Down were exposed to better teams in the late 80s and early 90s, they did compete. Antrim reached the All-Ireland final and nearly beat Kilkenny in another semi-final, they seriously rattled Cork in another. Down rattled Cork in an All-Ireland semi-final and beat Kilkenny in Nowlan Park in the league. Even Derry rattled Offaly in an All-Ireland quarter-final. They can't compete now because they're far too siloed into poor standard hurling.

For them to ever have a hope of competing at any sort of decent level again, there would have to be a format which ensured that they got a decent run at better teams for an extended period of years.

Does that Wexford point not prove how Plan B is a plus? Get better at you level and progress through the league?

[sid waddell]

No one goes to Munster championship games anyway! You get a few at the final but the rest are ignored!

Kerry men would tell you they hardly count their Munster medals. Dublin are embarrassed collecting the Leinster Trophy these days and I doubt it's even celebrated. Ulster counties make the most of theirs but the rest of the provinces are dead at county level. Stone dead and you can't deny that.

You'll get league/championship now and all the games you'll want. We've often tipped to see who Armagh or Monaghan are playing or even into Dublin games in the league when they are appealing. And that's just league. The same guys won't go to Louth championship matches as it's going only one way. Give them competitive games and they'll go. We'd hope to be going that way anyway but it's a long road and provincial titles aren't Hartes goal. The league is and all div 3 and 4 teams are the same plus some in 2.

Monaghan a great example of coming from 3 to win an ulster. But two years before that they where Div1 and competing in Croke Park with Kerry. So them in Div 3 was the exception but as a small county they've had to put serious effort to stay in Div1 and for no reward come championship. It's actually probably hurt them having to play league at such a level. They'd be happy in Div1, finishing top 4 with an all Ireland quarter to look forward to. Serious reward for their efforts and clear sight at an all Ireland.

But all these competitions have been very competitive in the recent past.

You go back to 2010, Kerry and Cork drew in Killarney in a titanic tussle, and then Kerry won a second titanic tussle in extra time in Cork. Limerick seriously put it up to them in the final in Killarney. Cork beat Limerick by a point in the back door that year, going on to win the All-Ireland. And Tipp won Munster last year. Clare are reasonably competitive. If those teams were primed by a good standard of football and Kerry were not allowed feast on top quality Division 1 football, the gaps would be closer.

Leinster has the potential to be a serious battle between Dublin, Meath and Kildare. It generally was until a decade ago. And when Dublin were seriously challenged by Meath and Kildare with a Leinster title at stake, Croke Park was invariably filled.

Connacht has three good teams. Why have the other two fallen off a cliff? They're siloed in Division 4, while the other three have been Division 1 regulars.

A decade ago people were calling for the Leinster hurling championship to be abolished because Kilkenny were so dominant, yet it has been very competitive since 2012.

[DuffleKing]

The GPA's campaign here is commendable but change here is a dead duck. 60% will be required and you can be sure Brian McEvoy isn't on his own in the back corridors wringing hands and whispering about the impact on their income.

Can't agree with that, in fact I'd be surprised if it doesn't go through. It will pass unless the officials do not use their mandate from within the counties themselves. Otherwise expect an awful lot of friction arising up and down the county between players/management and county boards.

The very fact that McAvoy is doing media work at all suggests that he is aware of the fact that change is coming and it could simply be a case of horse trading for a share of the lost income.

You haven't been paying attention to how congress works and the fact you're expecting delegates to represent their mandate is puzzling.

Provincial councils get all of their championship gate money but none of the all Ireland/ central games. That's the issue in a nutshell.

[sid waddell]

Should have competitiveness across the board - how? And none of your gimmicks of sharing resources be it money or coaching. How are Wexford footballers suddenly going to get competitive.

How did Wexford get competitive in the 2000s? From being exposed to better teams in the league. They got out of a 16 team Division 2, and because the jump to a 16 team Division 1 was not as great - because the top 8 teams were split and not allowed gallop away in terms of standard, Wexford were able to learn the ropes and start to compete with good teams.

And why won't a two tier all Ireland work you've not addressed that when it works in every other level and sport. Should Louth hurlers get a run at Kilkenny again and if not, why shouldn't the Kilkenny hurlers send up their coaches and money to help take them down.

When Antrim and Down were exposed to better teams in the late 80s and early 90s, they did compete. Antrim reached the All-Ireland final and nearly beat Kilkenny in another semi-final, they seriously rattled Cork in another. Down rattled Cork in an All-Ireland semi-final and beat Kilkenny in Nowlan Park in the league. Even Derry rattled Offaly in an All-Ireland quarter-final. They can't compete now because they're far too siloed into poor standard hurling.

For them to ever have a hope of competing at any sort of decent level again, there would have to be a format which ensured that they got a decent run at better teams for an extended period of years.

Does that Wexford point not prove how Plan B is a plus? Get better at you level and progress through the league?

No. Because with the Divisions 1-4 format the gap is far too much. The point is that back in the 2000s, the gap between 1A/1B and 2A/2B was much more bridgeable. There was a much greater mixing of standard, which meant a greater pooling in the middle - but that made for excellent across the board competitiveness.

This is now a long term problem and even if the correct remedial measures were applied, it would probably take a good 3-5 years for the gaps to narrow properly.

That doesn't mean that corrective action shouldn't be taken.