Congress

[Louther]

As I said. I don't like or normally listen to Parkinson but was interested in this.

I think his balance came from that he seen how Ulster could be against any change and accepted its provincial championship worked. He also accepted some views if McEvoys on attendances and dead rubbers.

His bias for Plan B was also clear.

To get any spike or even get back to attendances of 00s, you have to work at them. Gone are the days when people will just go to championship games or any GAA games. To do that, you have to have a product and a competitive game with meaningful games is your base. I will think over couple of years, Plan B would provide that. At present including super 8s and even provinces aren't that. Back door, miss matches teams, super 8s, have all stagnated. Lot of it self inflicted in my view.

[DuffleKing]

The GPA's campaign here is commendable but change here is a dead duck. 60% will be required and you can be sure Brian McEvoy isn't on his own in the back corridors wringing hands and whispering about the impact on their income.

[sid waddell]

Pricing is a massive opportunity and doesn't need to set now.

It's a chance to re engage with people who have left the county game. If matches are competitive and big draws people will attend at the right price.

Rather than saying let's just charge what we always did, how about looking at pitching it well, promoting the game/occasion and putting new ideas in place - easier to price and sell season tickets, split them into home season tickets, home plus away season tickets. Sell these up front before a ball is kicked.

You have to work at it and add value to it. A Leinster rugby game is always a good example to attend. It's more than just a game. There is stuff happening, food, drink, kids activities and so much more than just a game. The GAA needs to break the same old routine. Marketing and PR has remained Stone Age.

Then pricing can be looked at and see what the package actually is.

There are four professional club rugby teams in Ireland.

There are 32 GAA county football teams.

And the attendances those rugby teams attract, bar Leinster, are not big. Munster's attendances have collapsed over the last decade. Connacht have a tiny stadium.

Half time entertainment gimmicks won't work. People are not fools.

[Louther]

Pricing is a massive opportunity and doesn't need to set now.

It's a chance to re engage with people who have left the county game. If matches are competitive and big draws people will attend at the right price.

Rather than saying let's just charge what we always did, how about looking at pitching it well, promoting the game/occasion and putting new ideas in place - easier to price and sell season tickets, split them into home season tickets, home plus away season tickets. Sell these up front before a ball is kicked.

You have to work at it and add value to it. A Leinster rugby game is always a good example to attend. It's more than just a game. There is stuff happening, food, drink, kids activities and so much more than just a game. The GAA needs to break the same old routine. Marketing and PR has remained Stone Age.

Then pricing can be looked at and see what the package actually is.

There are four professional club rugby teams in Ireland.

There are 32 GAA county football teams.

And the attendances those rugby teams attract, bar Leinster, are not big. Munster's attendances have collapsed over the last decade. Connacht have a tiny stadium.

Half time entertainment gimmicks won't work. People are not fools.

So we do nothing? Is there nothing that can be learned from other sports?

Connacht game on Friday night in Galway is a big deal, small stadium but will be developed and then what? They get better grounds than Pearse stadium, it's an event, a few pints or whatever. Ulster games in Ravenhill, a big deal and occasion. And these games are regular. The rugby community is small and these sides suffer with a diluted competition in the Pro14 and internationals not been present regularly.

What Plan B is doing is exactly what the rugby needs. Bigger, high profile games with teams at similar level. Market it other than having two players sitting in Croke park in their jerseys with cheesy smiles and a ball. 

It's not about gimmicks but even getting a cup or tea or hit food in side a GAA ground is an ordeal. So much more could be done. Half the horse boxes in the country are now mobile cafes and could be put to use round the place.

[Rossfan]

The suggestion by Cathaoirleach Shligigh of a Croke Park/Neutral round is a good one imo.
It would give everyone 3 home, 3 away and 1 Neutral fixture.
Dublin couldn't use Croker for their Neutral game.
Let each Division have a weekend in Croke Park..
D1 could have their first Round Neutral..
Saturday - Dublin v Kerry in De Páirc, Tyrone v Mayowestros in Croker.
Sunday - double header in Croke Park with Armagh, Donegal,  Kildare and Monaghan.

[Eire90]

Will the semi finals be seeded under proposal b  would the highest seed play the lowest   seed  and 2nd highest play the 2nd lowest also should the highesr seeds get home advantage in quarters and semis  so finishing higher gives you more benefits (we all know gaa wont give away croke park semi revunue tho).

[Cavan19]

It's all about money now and the paid jobs in these provincial councils. There afraid of their life that the ulster championship will end up a damp squib which it possibly would over time under plan B and the money will be gone from them and eventually the GAA will do away with the provincial councils altogether or lessen there influence to cover just underage games.

[Eire90]

if provincial councils ever went would the club championship become a 32 team knockout beetween county champions kind of like the old eurpean cup as a novelty that would be cool seeing the tyrone  champions having to travel down to kerry or somewhere.

[yellowcard]

The GPA's campaign here is commendable but change here is a dead duck. 60% will be required and you can be sure Brian McEvoy isn't on his own in the back corridors wringing hands and whispering about the impact on their income.

Can't agree with that, in fact I'd be surprised if it doesn't go through. It will pass unless the officials do not use their mandate from within the counties themselves. Otherwise expect an awful lot of friction arising up and down the county between players/management and county boards.

The very fact that McAvoy is doing media work at all suggests that he is aware of the fact that change is coming and it could simply be a case of horse trading for a share of the lost income.

[Rossfan]

JP and his Leinster and Munster counterparts are very quiet.
I know the Munster crowd are only interested in the Hurley stuff so is  McEvoy speaking for Connacht and Leinster Councils too or just on a solo?
In 2019 the 4 SFC games played in Connacht attracted 51,500 spectators.
How many would 15 Round Robin games plus a Semi and Final played in Feb/March bring in?

[sid waddell]

Pricing is a massive opportunity and doesn't need to set now.

It's a chance to re engage with people who have left the county game. If matches are competitive and big draws people will attend at the right price.

Rather than saying let's just charge what we always did, how about looking at pitching it well, promoting the game/occasion and putting new ideas in place - easier to price and sell season tickets, split them into home season tickets, home plus away season tickets. Sell these up front before a ball is kicked.

You have to work at it and add value to it. A Leinster rugby game is always a good example to attend. It's more than just a game. There is stuff happening, food, drink, kids activities and so much more than just a game. The GAA needs to break the same old routine. Marketing and PR has remained Stone Age.

Then pricing can be looked at and see what the package actually is.

There are four professional club rugby teams in Ireland.

There are 32 GAA county football teams.

And the attendances those rugby teams attract, bar Leinster, are not big. Munster's attendances have collapsed over the last decade. Connacht have a tiny stadium.

Half time entertainment gimmicks won't work. People are not fools.

So we do nothing? Is there nothing that can be learned from other sports?

Connacht game on Friday night in Galway is a big deal, small stadium but will be developed and then what? They get better grounds than Pearse stadium, it's an event, a few pints or whatever. Ulster games in Ravenhill, a big deal and occasion. And these games are regular. The rugby community is small and these sides suffer with a diluted competition in the Pro14 and internationals not been present regularly.

What Plan B is doing is exactly what the rugby needs. Bigger, high profile games with teams at similar level. Market it other than having two players sitting in Croke park in their jerseys with cheesy smiles and a ball. 

It's not about gimmicks but even getting a cup or tea or hit food in side a GAA ground is an ordeal. So much more could be done. Half the horse boxes in the country are now mobile cafes and could be put to use round the place.

Getting food and drink and having decent toilet facilities at stadiums are issues independent of competition formats.

It depends what you want to learn from other sports. GAA learned from English football by having floodlit matches and more live TV. These were good things for sure. It has also brought in terrible ideas from other sports – see the attacking mark, taken from Aussie Rules.

At the heart of all this debate is the word "event". What is an event?

I think above all, "events" in a sporting sense depend on full stadiums, because full stadiums make atmospheres.

You mention rugby. When rugby went professional, the Heineken Cup became an event. What more than anything made it an event was Munster playing in Thomond Park. But Thomond Park was small then, it only held 7 or 8 thousand people, almost all standing. It was an event because i) the matches were thrilling and genuinely mattered – they had huge jeopardy – only the winner of the four team group was guaranteed to qualify - and ii) ticket demand always outstripped supply because of the small stadium.

Leinster sort of took up the ball and ran with that idea with Friday night games in Donnybrook, which became a quasi-event in themselves because a small, full stadium creates atmosphere.

But when Munster expanded Thomond Park, things didn't go nearly as well as hoped. It now held 25k, and supply suddenly outstripped demand, even for the biggest matches, which actually made them inferior as events to what had been the case when the capacity was 7 or 8k. And there was much less demand for most Celtic League matches. Because the stadium wasn't near full, atmosphere declined. And because people knew that the atmosphere at Celtic League matches wouldn't be great, less people wanted to go, so it became a vicious circle.

With rugby – and with all sporting events, where the stadium is matters. Thomond Park is in a good location. The RDS is in a great location. So is Lansdowne Road. These are great locations for post match socialising. GAA grounds generally don't lend themselves to "events", bar big one off occasions.

Here in Galway the Sportsground is a great location, six or seven minutes walk from Eyre Square, and crucially the ground is small, 6 or 7 thousand capacity, so for Connacht it's a great fit. If they moved to a bigger stadium further out from town I think it would be a disaster for them.

International soccer and rugby tournaments are major "events". They are mythical lost weeks or weekends away, where supporters are in full on party mode. In GAA, the equivalent is All-Ireland finals and maybe some semi-finals. Munster hurling finals and Ulster football finals would be next down the list.

But what makes an event in GAA parlance? I think in this context we have to look more inward rather than outward. What works and what doesn't work. Again it comes down to full stadiums.

Dublin used to hold league matches in Parnell Park. These worked as events because Parnell Park was small and the ground would generally be filled close to capacity. More people can go to league matches in Croke Park but do they work as well as events? Debatable, but I would say no, because the atmosphere is inferior to what it was at Parnell. Dublin County finals on October Bank Holiday Monday nights worked as events, especially if you got two big Northside teams, because you'd fill the ground.

So in the context of the GAA championship, what makes an event? To me its i) full stadiums ii) what's at stake and iii) weather and timing in the year. 

In winter, smaller events can work in small stadiums, but the championship is the showpiece, so you have to be thinking bigger. That doesn't mean you can't get smaller events to work in small stadiums in summer – Kildare v Mayo in the Newbridge or Nowhere match was very much an "event". But that was knockout. A lot was at stake. And it was a balmy mid-summer evening.

Munster hurling finals work as events, no matter which venue. They are special.

Ulster football finals work as events. Everybody wants to experience them. They are special.

Munster football finals in Killarney between Cork and Kerry work as events. Half of Cork goes for the day out. It's one day. That's why it's an event.

Dublin matches in the 2000s worked as events. That was predicated on a couple of things. i) Dublin supporters felt starved of success, ii) there was a reasonable expectation of close matches, even in Leinster.

But as big events, these all depended on timing in the year – June, July, August, when there was a much greater chance of fine weather, which makes people want to go.

So if you have a league system as the championship, what will make it an event?

Competition? To me that's heavily diluted. Seven matches absolutely dilutes competition. Dublin and Kerry will likely coast through. It heavily increases predictability. It greatly reduces the chance of real shocks.

After a couple of years of this, people know the score. Dublin and Kerry coast through, a few other counties, generally the usual suspects each year, fight for the remaining knockout places in Division 1. You get the phenomenon of yo-yo teams. In the knockout rounds, the teams from lower divisions get well and truly walloped. People ask, "what's the point"? Dublin and Kerry reach the final most years.

Weather? April and May are colder, there are more competing counter attractions. Harder again to attract spectators. In my view, the move to April and May will quickly come to be seen as a very backward move.

Full stadiums? There aren't going to be many. Going to matches costs money. Newbridge might be full, because its tiny. That's about it. People will pick and choose which matches they can afford to go to, if they are inclined. Croke Park won't be full. Clones won't be full. Pairc Ui Chaoimh won't be full. Pearse Stadium won't be full. Killarney won't be full. Castlebar won't be full. Omagh won't be full. How can you make "events" if everybody knows stadiums are not going to be near full?

And we will have thrown away the great occasions that actually do work as events. For what?

Again, the problem is competitiveness. The 2001-2017 format is a great one. All it requires is better across the board compettiveness. And that problem is fixable. Ireland is made up of 32 counties, most of which have fairly comparable populations. It should enable a competitive championship across the board. You put the structures in place to enable that competitveness – a more equitable NFL format, sponsorship redistribution, better sharing of coaching expertise, and you keep the format that enables shocks - the on the day one. You clip the wings of the strong and help the weak. You don't abandon them. That's what Proposal B does.

[yellowcard]

Pricing is a massive opportunity and doesn't need to set now.

It's a chance to re engage with people who have left the county game. If matches are competitive and big draws people will attend at the right price.

Rather than saying let's just charge what we always did, how about looking at pitching it well, promoting the game/occasion and putting new ideas in place - easier to price and sell season tickets, split them into home season tickets, home plus away season tickets. Sell these up front before a ball is kicked.

You have to work at it and add value to it. A Leinster rugby game is always a good example to attend. It's more than just a game. There is stuff happening, food, drink, kids activities and so much more than just a game. The GAA needs to break the same old routine. Marketing and PR has remained Stone Age.

Then pricing can be looked at and see what the package actually is.

There are four professional club rugby teams in Ireland.

There are 32 GAA county football teams.

And the attendances those rugby teams attract, bar Leinster, are not big. Munster's attendances have collapsed over the last decade. Connacht have a tiny stadium.

Half time entertainment gimmicks won't work. People are not fools.

So we do nothing? Is there nothing that can be learned from other sports?

Connacht game on Friday night in Galway is a big deal, small stadium but will be developed and then what? They get better grounds than Pearse stadium, it's an event, a few pints or whatever. Ulster games in Ravenhill, a big deal and occasion. And these games are regular. The rugby community is small and these sides suffer with a diluted competition in the Pro14 and internationals not been present regularly.

What Plan B is doing is exactly what the rugby needs. Bigger, high profile games with teams at similar level. Market it other than having two players sitting in Croke park in their jerseys with cheesy smiles and a ball. 

It's not about gimmicks but even getting a cup or tea or hit food in side a GAA ground is an ordeal. So much more could be done. Half the horse boxes in the country are now mobile cafes and could be put to use round the place.

Getting food and drink and having decent toilet facilities at stadiums are issues independent of competition formats.

It depends what you want to learn from other sports. GAA learned from English football by having floodlit matches and more live TV. These were good things for sure. It has also brought in terrible ideas from other sports – see the attacking mark, taken from Aussie Rules.

At the heart of all this debate is the word "event". What is an event?

I think above all, "events" in a sporting sense depend on full stadiums, because full stadiums make atmospheres.

You mention rugby. When rugby went professional, the Heineken Cup became an event. What more than anything made it an event was Munster playing in Thomond Park. But Thomond Park was small then, it only held 7 or 8 thousand people, almost all standing. It was an event because i) the matches were thrilling and genuinely mattered – they had huge jeopardy – only the winner of the four team group was guaranteed to qualify - and ii) ticket demand always outstripped supply because of the small stadium.

Leinster sort of took up the ball and ran with that idea with Friday night games in Donnybrook, which became a quasi-event in themselves because a small, full stadium creates atmosphere.

But when Munster expanded Thomond Park, things didn't go nearly as well as hoped. It now held 25k, and supply suddenly outstripped demand, even for the biggest matches, which actually made them inferior as events to what had been the case when the capacity was 7 or 8k. And there was much less demand for most Celtic League matches. Because the stadium wasn't near full, atmosphere declined. And because people knew that the atmosphere at Celtic League matches wouldn't be great, less people wanted to go, so it became a vicious circle.

With rugby – and with all sporting events, where the stadium is matters. Thomond Park is in a good location. The RDS is in a great location. So is Lansdowne Road. These are great locations for post match socialising. GAA grounds generally don't lend themselves to "events", bar big one off occasions.

Here in Galway the Sportsground is a great location, six or seven minutes walk from Eyre Square, and crucially the ground is small, 6 or 7 thousand capacity, so for Connacht it's a great fit. If they moved to a bigger stadium further out from town I think it would be a disaster for them.

International soccer and rugby tournaments are major "events". They are mythical lost weeks or weekends away, where supporters are in full on party mode. In GAA, the equivalent is All-Ireland finals and maybe some semi-finals. Munster hurling finals and Ulster football finals would be next down the list.

But what makes an event in GAA parlance? I think in this context we have to look more inward rather than outward. What works and what doesn't work. Again it comes down to full stadiums.

Dublin used to hold league matches in Parnell Park. These worked as events because Parnell Park was small and the ground would generally be filled close to capacity. More people can go to league matches in Croke Park but do they work as well as events? Debatable, but I would say no, because the atmosphere is inferior to what it was at Parnell. Dublin County finals on October Bank Holiday Monday nights worked as events, especially if you got two big Northside teams, because you'd fill the ground.

So in the context of the GAA championship, what makes an event? To me its i) full stadiums ii) what's at stake and iii) weather and timing in the year. 

In winter, smaller events can work in small stadiums, but the championship is the showpiece, so you have to be thinking bigger. That doesn't mean you can't get smaller events to work in small stadiums in summer – Kildare v Mayo in the Newbridge or Nowhere match was very much an "event". But that was knockout. A lot was at stake. And it was a balmy mid-summer evening.

Munster hurling finals work as events, no matter which venue. They are special.

Ulster football finals work as events. Everybody wants to experience them. They are special.

Munster football finals in Killarney between Cork and Kerry work as events. Half of Cork goes for the day out. It's one day. That's why it's an event.

Dublin matches in the 2000s worked as events. That was predicated on a couple of things. i) Dublin supporters felt starved of success, ii) there was a reasonable expectation of close matches, even in Leinster.

But as big events, these all depended on timing in the year – June, July, August, when there was a much greater chance of fine weather, which makes people want to go.

So if you have a league system as the championship, what will make it an event?

Competition? To me that's heavily diluted. Seven matches absolutely dilutes competition. Dublin and Kerry will likely coast through. It heavily increases predictability. It greatly reduces the chance of real shocks.

After a couple of years of this, people know the score. Dublin and Kerry coast through, a few other counties, generally the usual suspects each year, fight for the remaining knockout places in Division 1. You get the phenomenon of yo-yo teams. In the knockout rounds, the teams from lower divisions get well and truly walloped. People ask, "what's the point"? Dublin and Kerry reach the final most years.

Weather? April and May are colder, there are more competing counter attractions. Harder again to attract spectators. In my view, the move to April and May will quickly come to be seen as a very backward move.

Full stadiums? There aren't going to be many. Going to matches costs money. Newbridge might be full, because its tiny. That's about it. People will pick and choose which matches they can afford to go to, if they are inclined. Croke Park won't be full. Clones won't be full. Pairc Ui Chaoimh won't be full. Pearse Stadium won't be full. Killarney won't be full. Castlebar won't be full. Omagh won't be full. How can you make "events" if everybody knows stadiums are not going to be near full?

And we will have thrown away the great occasions that actually do work as events. For what?

Again, the problem is competitiveness. The 2001-2017 format is a great one. All it requires is better across the board compettiveness. And that problem is fixable. Ireland is made up of 32 counties, most of which have fairly comparable populations. It should enable a competitive championship across the board. You put the structures in place to enable that competitveness – a more equitable NFL format, sponsorship redistribution, better sharing of coaching expertise, and you keep the format that enables shocks - the on the day one. You clip the wings of the strong and help the weak. You don't abandon them. That's what Proposal B does.

Excellent post.

[sid waddell]

The suggestion by Cathaoirleach Shligigh of a Croke Park/Neutral round is a good one imo.
It would give everyone 3 home, 3 away and 1 Neutral fixture.
Dublin couldn't use Croker for their Neutral game.
Let each Division have a weekend in Croke Park..
D1 could have their first Round Neutral..
Saturday - Dublin v Kerry in De Páirc, Tyrone v Mayowestros in Croker.
Sunday - double header in Croke Park with Armagh, Donegal,  Kildare and Monaghan.

What sort of crowds would you expect at these "exceedingly attractive double headers™"?

[dublin7]

Counties like Carlow, Longford and Louth are usually out of the championship after early on and never get a run of games in the summer. At least with Plan B that could change and I'd expect counties like them to bring large crowds to games.

No matter how much money and/or coaches you throw at these smaller counties they are not going to be challenging for Leinster titles. At least with the Tailtean Cup they have a genuine trophy they can aim for

[Louther]

Sid,

A lot of what you said is correct but we need to modernise the game. Times have changed, people only have to take their phones out of their pockets now to be entertained or watch a premier league game, GAA match or latest Netflix hit or play online games with people the other side of the world that they've never met. You have to draw them out and cater for all.

You mention 2017. Why was 2017 changed to super 8s. Cause the last number of years attendances and games where falling off. It didn't happen over night. It gradually dropped, people found other ways to spend their time and GAA didn't match up.

Competitiveness of games a major part of this. Your last paragraph falls apart in my eyes. Do you really think that 32 counties can be competitive at same level? And shared coaching, sponsorship distribution etc will help that. No harm but that's a pie in the sky idea. Counties won't even share team news never mind coaching expertise and money.

The Senior Intercounty championship is the only competition in the whole of GAA that we obsess with all counties been competitive and competing at the same level. Let teams get success and compete at their own level and grow that way. It works well at club level. Time the Senior county game got to same tune.