Congress

Started by Baile Brigín 2, March 01, 2021, 02:47:55 AM

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Captain Obvious

Quote from: Eire90 on October 07, 2021, 09:28:16 PM
if the provincial championships are not that big without being linked to the all ireland does that mean they were not really that big anyway if they were so good should not be able to stand alone like the euro football championships are not linked to the world cup

Under proposal B the summer provincial knock out championships become a Provincial pre season league played in February and March.  Not at all comparable to the European championships and World Cup.

Eire90

i first fought proposal b was terrible now i think it might be good there was a thing where people say its not fair that 6th 7th and 8th in division 1 are knocked out well its up to them to win matches then they have a 5 out of 8 chance to do it its up to them to win their games.

Eire90

its kind of like how uefa have coffeciant rankings to determine how many spots a country gets  in champions league division 1 is  the English premier league so they get more spots and division 4 is like the league of ireland.

Eire90

#138
if you give the provincial champions 2 points in the league stage then they will probably take it serious then  the teams that have realistic chance of winning all ireland would having a 2 point start in the league could be very big that would make winning provincials important.perhaps even give them one point if you think 2 points is too much of head start and would heavily favor  Dublin Kerry and mayo too much.

dec

Quote from: Rossfan on October 07, 2021, 12:33:57 PM
https://www.hoganstand.com/Article/Index/320597

"Proposal B might not be perfect but with the appropriate supports mentioned above and potential innovations in the future ("bonus" league point for provincial finalists, possible "neutral" week in league at Croke Park or other venue – think "Magic Weekend" in Rugby League)"

It had occurred to me that something like that could work even in the traditional championship format could work. Have an Ulster,Connacht, Munster triple header in Croke Park maybe even throw they occasional Munster hurling game into the mix.

armaghniac

Quote from: Eire90 on October 07, 2021, 10:18:02 PM
if you give the provincial champions 2 points in the league stage then they will probably take it serious then  the teams that have realistic chance of winning all ireland would having a 2 point start in the league could be very big that would make winning provincials important.perhaps even give them one point if you think 2 points is too much of head start and would heavily favor  Dublin Kerry and mayo too much.

Give them 2 points, but if they got 2 points the previous year only give them 1, and 0 the third year.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Captain Obvious

Quote from: Eire90 on October 07, 2021, 10:06:48 PM
i first fought proposal b was terrible now i think it might be good there was a thing where people say its not fair that 6th 7th and 8th teams  are knocked out well its up to them to win matches then they have a 5 out of 8 chance to do it its up to them to win their games.

Up to them to win matches? Have you taken into account they are playing in the toughest division and the 6th, 7th, 8th place teams in division 1 would more than likely beat 2nd,3rd in Division 2 and the Division 3,4 winners if given an opportunity to play them.

armaghniac

Quote from: Captain Obvious on October 07, 2021, 10:33:08 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on October 07, 2021, 10:06:48 PM
i first fought proposal b was terrible now i think it might be good there was a thing where people say its not fair that 6th 7th and 8th teams  are knocked out well its up to them to win matches then they have a 5 out of 8 chance to do it its up to them to win their games.

Up to them to win matches? Have you taken into account they are playing in the toughest division and the 6th, 7th, 8th place teams in division 1 would more than likely beat 2nd,3rd in Division 2 and the Division 3,4 winners if given an opportunity to play them.

If team below the top 4 or 5 had any sense then they'd contrive to be 3rd in Division 2, then they'd be in Sam and would not get promoted where they risked ending the lower 3 in the Div 1 the following year.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

dec

Quote from: armaghniac on October 07, 2021, 10:46:36 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on October 07, 2021, 10:33:08 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on October 07, 2021, 10:06:48 PM
i first fought proposal b was terrible now i think it might be good there was a thing where people say its not fair that 6th 7th and 8th teams  are knocked out well its up to them to win matches then they have a 5 out of 8 chance to do it its up to them to win their games.

Up to them to win matches? Have you taken into account they are playing in the toughest division and the 6th, 7th, 8th place teams in division 1 would more than likely beat 2nd,3rd in Division 2 and the Division 3,4 winners if given an opportunity to play them.

If team below the top 4 or 5 had any sense then they'd contrive to be 3rd in Division 2, then they'd be in Sam and would not get promoted where they risked ending the lower 3 in the Div 1 the following year.

And they would end up playing 1 of the top 4 teams in the All Ireland Q/Fs (assuming they beat the Div 3 winners). If they can't beat them in the league I can't see them beating them in the championship.

Louther

Listened to GAA hour on this Plan B with Brian McEvoy from Ulster GAA. I'd be no fan of Parkinson and his arguments generally don't vary from his own opinion been right but on this issue, he tried to be balanced.

But McEvoy came across as a completely blinkered parody of what we all envisage GAA officials to be. He used plenty of facts and offered guaranteed outcomes based on his own opinion. I'm sure that he has plenty of experience but his whole argument is based on the provinces been a pathway to championship. That they aren't now solely a pathway was lost on him. He's seen it all and couldn't see why people would go to Ulster matches now or why an ulster final couldn't be a big occasion.

As CEO of the ulster council he should be his job to make it such and to seek out opportunities and to promote these games and make it appealing. Massive opportunities with extra games and a fixed structure of games. As CEO of Ulster he should be dealing with central council and asking them financial outcomes of plan B. Instead he hasn't been told and seems to leave it there. Of course more should be done but certainly think he doesn't want to know the answers so not asking the questions.

Another of his arguments was that the super 8s provided too many dead rubbers in last round of games. Yes but in a 4 team group that's always likely. In a 8 team groups with more places and more outcomes that's going to change - the leagues demostrate that. Parkinson didn't pull him on that.

He came across very poor and stubborn to me. And if this is the CEO of the ulster body than can only say that tradition and money is behind every decision and football is well down the priority.

Tom Parsons of GPA much more clear and better informed where arguing the GPA position and they steps they've take to inform and educate themselves.




sid waddell

Quote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 10:43:02 AM
Listened to GAA hour on this Plan B with Brian McEvoy from Ulster GAA. I'd be no fan of Parkinson and his arguments generally don't vary from his own opinion been right but on this issue, he tried to be balanced.

But McEvoy came across as a completely blinkered parody of what we all envisage GAA officials to be. He used plenty of facts and offered guaranteed outcomes based on his own opinion. I'm sure that he has plenty of experience but his whole argument is based on the provinces been a pathway to championship. That they aren't now solely a pathway was lost on him. He's seen it all and couldn't see why people would go to Ulster matches now or why an ulster final couldn't be a big occasion.

As CEO of the ulster council he should be his job to make it such and to seek out opportunities and to promote these games and make it appealing. Massive opportunities with extra games and a fixed structure of games. As CEO of Ulster he should be dealing with central council and asking them financial outcomes of plan B. Instead he hasn't been told and seems to leave it there. Of course more should be done but certainly think he doesn't want to know the answers so not asking the questions.

Another of his arguments was that the super 8s provided too many dead rubbers in last round of games. Yes but in a 4 team group that's always likely. In a 8 team groups with more places and more outcomes that's going to change - the leagues demostrate that. Parkinson didn't pull him on that.

He came across very poor and stubborn to me. And if this is the CEO of the ulster body than can only say that tradition and money is behind every decision and football is well down the priority.

Tom Parsons of GPA much more clear and better informed where arguing the GPA position and they steps they've take to inform and educate themselves.
I thought McAvoy came across very well.

One point he made which I think is not being dealt with is: what would be the pricing structure be for these league as championship games?

The League as it is only gets the crowds it does because prices are lower than for championship.

If you, say, doubled the prices of tickets, what effect does that have on the crowds? Bearing in mind that seven matches in eight weeks will already be very expensive for people to attend, and that there is and never has been a real culture anywhere in Irish sport of attending paid in games week on week.

How attractive can the new pre-season "provincial championships" be? They'll be played in January, February and March. And they themselves will be largely mismatches.

It beggars belief to me that the same people that are saying the provincial championships as they are now are a dead duck are the same people saying they will be attractive as stand alone pre-season competitions played in winter conditions. There's a fundamental contradiction there.

rodney trotter

Colm Parkinson wasn't aware that the changes will be permanent ,and not a trial basis like the Super 8s.
McEvoy is stubborn enough but made some decent points as did Parkinson

dublin7

Quote from: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 11:03:30 AM
Quote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 10:43:02 AM
Listened to GAA hour on this Plan B with Brian McEvoy from Ulster GAA. I'd be no fan of Parkinson and his arguments generally don't vary from his own opinion been right but on this issue, he tried to be balanced.

But McEvoy came across as a completely blinkered parody of what we all envisage GAA officials to be. He used plenty of facts and offered guaranteed outcomes based on his own opinion. I'm sure that he has plenty of experience but his whole argument is based on the provinces been a pathway to championship. That they aren't now solely a pathway was lost on him. He's seen it all and couldn't see why people would go to Ulster matches now or why an ulster final couldn't be a big occasion.

As CEO of the ulster council he should be his job to make it such and to seek out opportunities and to promote these games and make it appealing. Massive opportunities with extra games and a fixed structure of games. As CEO of Ulster he should be dealing with central council and asking them financial outcomes of plan B. Instead he hasn't been told and seems to leave it there. Of course more should be done but certainly think he doesn't want to know the answers so not asking the questions.

Another of his arguments was that the super 8s provided too many dead rubbers in last round of games. Yes but in a 4 team group that's always likely. In a 8 team groups with more places and more outcomes that's going to change - the leagues demostrate that. Parkinson didn't pull him on that.

He came across very poor and stubborn to me. And if this is the CEO of the ulster body than can only say that tradition and money is behind every decision and football is well down the priority.

Tom Parsons of GPA much more clear and better informed where arguing the GPA position and they steps they've take to inform and educate themselves.
I thought McAvoy came across very well.

One point he made which I think is not being dealt with is: what would be the pricing structure be for these league as championship games?

The League as it is only gets the crowds it does because prices are lower than for championship.

If you, say, doubled the prices of tickets, what effect does that have on the crowds? Bearing in mind that seven matches in eight weeks will already be very expensive for people to attend, and that there is and never has been a real culture anywhere in Irish sport of attending paid in games week on week.

How attractive can the new pre-season "provincial championships" be? They'll be played in January, February and March. And they themselves will be largely mismatches.

It beggars belief to me that the same people that are saying the provincial championships as they are now are a dead duck are the same people saying they will be attractive as stand alone pre-season competitions played in winter conditions. There's a fundamental contradiction there.

Ideal marketing opportunity for the GAA. Offer different packages for league games, knock out games or both combined. No reason why individual counties can't work with Croke Park to come up with their own pricing schemes.

One of the reason a new structure has to be brought in is because of provincial mismatches. Better that the provincial mismatches are on earlier in the year in poorer conditions than in the summer months when you can have competitive games between equally matched teams on good pitches in good conditions.

Louther

Pricing is a massive opportunity and doesn't need to set now.

It's a chance to re engage with people who have left the county game. If matches are competitive and big draws people will attend at the right price.

Rather than saying let's just charge what we always did, how about looking at pitching it well, promoting the game/occasion and putting new ideas in place - easier to price and sell season tickets, split them into home season tickets, home plus away season tickets. Sell these up front before a ball is kicked.

You have to work at it and add value to it. A Leinster rugby game is always a good example to attend. It's more than just a game. There is stuff happening, food, drink, kids activities and so much more than just a game. The GAA needs to break the same old routine. Marketing and PR has remained Stone Age.

Then pricing can be looked at and see what the package actually is.

yellowcard

Quote from: Louther on October 08, 2021, 10:43:02 AM
Listened to GAA hour on this Plan B with Brian McEvoy from Ulster GAA. I'd be no fan of Parkinson and his arguments generally don't vary from his own opinion been right but on this issue, he tried to be balanced.

But McEvoy came across as a completely blinkered parody of what we all envisage GAA officials to be. He used plenty of facts and offered guaranteed outcomes based on his own opinion. I'm sure that he has plenty of experience but his whole argument is based on the provinces been a pathway to championship. That they aren't now solely a pathway was lost on him. He's seen it all and couldn't see why people would go to Ulster matches now or why an ulster final couldn't be a big occasion.

As CEO of the ulster council he should be his job to make it such and to seek out opportunities and to promote these games and make it appealing. Massive opportunities with extra games and a fixed structure of games. As CEO of Ulster he should be dealing with central council and asking them financial outcomes of plan B. Instead he hasn't been told and seems to leave it there. Of course more should be done but certainly think he doesn't want to know the answers so not asking the questions.

Another of his arguments was that the super 8s provided too many dead rubbers in last round of games. Yes but in a 4 team group that's always likely. In a 8 team groups with more places and more outcomes that's going to change - the leagues demostrate that. Parkinson didn't pull him on that.

He came across very poor and stubborn to me. And if this is the CEO of the ulster body than can only say that tradition and money is behind every decision and football is well down the priority.

Tom Parsons of GPA much more clear and better informed where arguing the GPA position and they steps they've take to inform and educate themselves.

Parkinson rightly grilled McAvoy but he certainly wasn't balanced. Its clear that he wants proposal B to go through and that is fine but don't pretend that he is balanced (Parkinson didn't even hide it himself). He has a vested interest in having more high profile county matches with working in the media in the same way that McAvoy was defending his own corner in terms of retaining the provincial competitions. Both have their own clear agendas.

I think plan B is a better option than what currently exists but I don't see it as some great panacea that will solve all the ills. Nor do I see the great spike in attendances that Parkinson seems to think will ensue upon the restructure.