Congress

[Rossfan]

Sid would remind you of a Yank bemoaning the lack of thatched houses!

[armaghniac]

With (mostly) smaller venues, and half of the crowd having little or no distance to travel, I really do believe the league will produce that in spades.

Mostly smaller venues just mean that less people are going. In the Provincial championships people were mostly within 2 hours of the game and crowds had a lot of people from each side,  in the league they could be 5 or 6 hours away and crowds are one sided.

[BennyCake]

If the provincial championships aren't linked to the AI series, then they basically become a meaningless competition.

So....

Do fans in Munster/Leinster/Connacht  want their respective championship keeping, as a competition leading to further progression in the AI series?

Or do you want rid of it?

[Rossfan]

If they are nothing when standing alone are they worth having at all?
Never mind greasy Clones chips...question is are these proposals better for the County game or not?
The old system of playing 10 games in the 1st 13 weeks of the year in sh1t and muck followed by as few as 2 games for a load of teams somewhere in the 2nd 13 weeks hasn't a lot to recommend it.
But are proposals A or B an improvement?

[sid waddell]

With (mostly) smaller venues, and half of the crowd having little or no distance to travel, I really do believe the league will produce that in spades.

Mostly smaller venues just mean that less people are going. In the Provincial championships people were mostly within 2 hours of the game and crowds had a lot of people from each side,  in the league they could be 5 or 6 hours away and crowds are one sided.

Distance is still very much a factor in people going to or not going to games.

As is tradition, some counties just don't have any tradition of travelling support.

How many Kerry supporters travelled to Clones for that crunch championship tie against Monaghan?

How many even travel to Dublin for All-Ireland quarter-finals or semi-finals?

Some counties don't even have much of a tradition of home support.

When Cork played Dublin in Pairc Ui Chaoimh in the 1999 NFL final, how many attended it?

9,000, a majority of whom travelled from Dublin.

I'd wager I've attended more NFL matches in Cork than most Cork football "supporters", and I've never lived in or near Cork.

The one match which always brings Cork supporters out in numbers is against Kerry in Killarney.

[sid waddell]

If they are nothing when standing alone are they worth having at all?

If you removed American football's divisional championships from the NFL and played them as stand alone pre-season competitions, do you think they'd have the same worth?

Do you think the NFL are considering doing away with the divisional championships?

Not on your life.

[sid waddell]

General piece of advice: more you attempt to portray yourself as a protector of Irish culture, the more confused and erratic you will become.

The (existence of provincial councils and) format of the provincial championships grew out of a need to minimise travelling distances. Then exploded in tandem with train travel (hence, Clones).

A tradition born out of necessity, and festered out of convenience, should not forcibly set the rules of today. If the Association hadn't adapted to circumstances and opportunity throughout its formative and fledgling years, it would never have prospered. Demanding we now maintain competition formats that are are imbalanced and illogical, because that's what we did 100 years ago, is wrong.

This isn't to deny the adrenaline jolt one can feel on provincial finals day. If you've got the time to kill, there is something wonderful about the population of a small provincial town increasing by 2000% for a day.

But you know what? I do believe, hand on heart, that much of that magic would spread throughout the proposed league. Not to every game. Not a lot for some games.

But I have been witness to enough electric evenings in Pairc Esler for national league games, to know that it's not actually Clones that makes the Ulster final a special day. Nor is it the competition or the trophy. It definitely nothing to do with 130 years of history. Instead, It's the full house, and the sense of anticipation for two evenly matched teams giving their absolute all to win a match.

With (mostly) smaller venues, and half of the crowd having little or no distance to travel, I really do believe the league will produce that in spades.

So you're now telling us that the provincial finals are alright "if you've got a bit of time to kill", but that the proposed new league as championship format would be "magical"?

Have you got any more of this marketing guff?

Can you give me an example of any "magical" atmospheres at NFL Division 3 or 4 matches, ever?

I sure can't think of any.

In 34 years of going to NFL matches I can think of precious few "magical" atmospheres at any NFL round robin matches, ever.

Monaghan and Kerry gave it their all that day in Clones. So why did only 17k turn up?

Why did a combined 30k only turn up when Kildare, Monaghan, Kerry and Galway kicked off the Super 8s in 2018?

Why did a combined 30k only turn up when Dublin, Cork, Roscommon and Tyrone kicked off the Super 8s in 2019?

And why does the Ulster final always sell out?

[thewobbler]

It doesn't always sell out.

I'm not going to go as far as magical but I've witnessed dozens of games with superb atmospheres in Newry. Right up that season 6 years ago when we stank division one out, these were nearly always better than championship matches.

But most of all you're so busy reflecting on the sunny days of your youth, it means you're struggling to keep up. In the new format the league stages will be the championship. It won't be a warm up competition for any county, regardless of their goals. Reflecting on what went before, in an attempt to draw parallels with what is coming, is pointless. Every game is championship. The players will respond, and there will be full houses up and down the country.

[Armagh18]

It doesn't always sell out.

I'm not going to go as far as magical but I've witnessed dozens of games with superb atmospheres in Newry. Right up that season 6 years ago when we stank division one out, these were nearly always better than championship matches.

But most of all you're so busy reflecting on the sunny days of your youth, it means you're struggling to keep up. In the new format the league stages will be the championship. It won't be a warm up competition for any county, regardless of their goals. Reflecting on what went before, in an attempt to draw parallels with what is coming, is pointless. Every game is championship. The players will respond, and there will be full houses up and down the country.

"Championship" in league format isn't championship

[sid waddell]

It doesn't always sell out.

I'm not going to go as far as magical but I've witnessed dozens of games with superb atmospheres in Newry. Right up that season 6 years ago when we stank division one out, these were nearly always better than championship matches.

But most of all you're so busy reflecting on the sunny days of your youth, it means you're struggling to keep up. In the new format the league stages will be the championship. It won't be a warm up competition for any county, regardless of their goals. Reflecting on what went before, in an attempt to draw parallels with what is coming, is pointless. Every game is championship. The players will respond, and there will be full houses up and down the country.

When was the last time the Ulster final didn't sell out in Clones? When was the last time it didn't attract over 90% capacity, ie. as good as a sell out for atmosphere?

Your bit about "reflecting on the sunny days of your youth" is just trolling. The Ulster championship and especially the Ulster final remain superb spectacles. Even the spectatorless Covid final of last year was memorable. It meant everything to Cavan, even if Cavan people couldn't be there.

A Division 3 league title or a Tommy Murphy Cup will never do that.

We've already had league as championship, it was called the Super 8s. It was, in general, a rubbish spectacle and only served the strong counties. More games for the strong against the strong. And the rug is pulled up further.

And even at that, four matches of 24 were in any way memorable - Monaghan v Kerry 2018, Donegal v Tyrone 2018, Donegal v Kerry 2019 and Mayo v Donegal 2019. What the Super 8s mainly did was produce a ton of thoroughly forgettable football.

[tiempo]

Ulster sez NO

Top fella Brian, unenviable position to be in tbh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO_Kbl6qAFg

[sid waddell]

Ulster sez NO

Top fella Brian, unenviable position to be in tbh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO_Kbl6qAFg

Good contribution by Brian McAvoy there. He didn't take any shit.

The Off the Ball lads sound like they're advertising Eircom shares back in the day. All buzzwords and slogans and PR speak.

[rodney trotter]

A lot of opposition to restructuring the Provinces to 8 which would be understandable. But Leinster Hurling has Galway and Antrim.  Antrim isn't near Leinster, but had to move as too strong.

They say the Provincial Championship is dead, so why not try and revive with 4 provinces of 8. Longford and Westmeath into Connacht should be explored or Laois into Munster.

[sid waddell]

A lot of opposition to restructuring the Provinces to 8 which would be understandable. But Leinster Hurling has Galway and Antrim.  Antrim isn't near Leinster, but had to move as too strong.

They say the Provincial Championship is dead, so why not try and revive with 4 provinces of 8. Longford and Westmeath into Connacht should be explored or Laois into Munster.

Brian McAvoy said something on that podcast in relation to Proposal A which I hadn't heard before.

Instead of say, Fermanagh and Longford being arbitrarily assigned to Connacht or Wexford and Carlow to Munster, there would be play offs based on League placings each year to see which counties would move province.

So, for argument's sake, based on 2021 League placings, Cavan and Antrim would have played in an effective Ulster Championship tie, with the winner qualifying for one of two Ulster round robin groups, and the loser going into a Connacht round robin group.

You'd have three play-off ties between Leinster teams with the winners remaining in the Leinster championship and two of the losers going into Munster and one to Connacht.

So each county would get a chance to play for their own provincial championship.

As an example, the Connacht round robin groups might end up looking like this:

Group A
Mayo
Roscommon
London
Longford

Group B
Galway
Sligo
Leitrim
Cavan

with the winners meeting in the Connacht final.

It's not perfect but it's more palatable than Proposal B.

[armaghniac]

Cavan or Fermanagh are contiguous to Connacht, as is Donegal to some extent. Putting Antrim in Connacht would seem cruel.