Author Topic: Congress  (Read 23276 times)

thewobbler

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Re: Congress
« Reply #180 on: October 08, 2021, 06:09:05 PM »
The gap is not the result of league structures. Your  notions on Gaelic games tend to delve into romance and this is a prime example.

The gap is a result of the semi professionalism of Gaelic Games in the early noughties, that gathered pace in the 2010s.

When a county with a footballing culture and a deep playing pool,  combine solid finances and strong leadership to put in place professional management structures, it generates a significantly higher plane of athletic, skilful and tactically astute player. And when that player comes against opponents who haven’t been exposed to these levels of management, they are then exposed on the pitch.

Need proof? Limerick have done the same thing in hurling. None of the other hurling powers are playing the same game at them at present, even though they all play in the same competitions week in week out.

——-

Smaller counties like Wexford, Sligo, Tipperary and Fermanagh have shown the gap is somewhat surmountable when a handful of generational talents align. But there’s a chicken and egg in this for counties. If they haven’t hit the place of birth jackpot by unloading 2-3 highest quality players at once, then every game they play against the top 10-12 teams in Ireland is not going to end well. For those teams will be equally well conditioned and learned… but will have better players, simply because they’ve more players to pick from. When a cluster of generational talents comes along though, it’s very easy for county boards, clubs, money men and next rung down players to throw their weight behind. They know that some good can come from it.

Louther

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Re: Congress
« Reply #181 on: October 08, 2021, 06:15:18 PM »
No one goes to Munster championship games anyway! You get a few at the final but the rest are ignored!

Kerry men would tell you they hardly count their Munster medals. Dublin are embarrassed collecting the Leinster Trophy these days and I doubt it’s even celebrated. Ulster counties make the most of theirs but the rest of the provinces are dead at county level. Stone dead and you can’t deny that.

You’ll get league/championship now and all the games you’ll want. We’ve often tipped to see who Armagh or Monaghan are playing or even into Dublin games in the league when they are appealing. And that’s just league. The same guys won’t go to Louth championship matches as it’s going only one way. Give them competitive games and they’ll go. We’d hope to be going that way anyway but it’s a long road and provincial titles aren’t Hartes goal. The league is and all div 3 and 4 teams are the same plus some in 2.

Monaghan a great example of coming from 3 to win an ulster. But two years before that they where Div1 and competing in Croke Park with Kerry. So them in Div 3 was the exception but as a small county they’ve had to put serious effort to stay in Div1 and for no reward come championship. It’s actually probably hurt them having to play league at such a level. They’d be happy in Div1, finishing top 4 with an all Ireland quarter to look forward to. Serious reward for their efforts and clear sight at an all Ireland.
But all these competitions have been very competitive in the recent past.

You go back to 2010, Kerry and Cork drew in Killarney in a titanic tussle, and then Kerry won a second titanic tussle in extra time in Cork. Limerick seriously put it up to them in the final in Killarney. Cork beat Limerick by a point in the back door that year, going on to win the All-Ireland. And Tipp won Munster last year. Clare are reasonably competitive. If those teams were primed by a good standard of football and Kerry were not allowed feast on top quality Division 1 football, the gaps would be closer.

Leinster has the potential to be a serious battle between Dublin, Meath and Kildare. It generally was until a decade ago. And when Dublin were seriously challenged by Meath and Kildare with a Leinster title at stake, Croke Park was invariably filled.

Connacht has three good teams. Why have the other two fallen off a cliff? They're siloed in Division 4, while the other three have been Division 1 regulars.

A decade ago people were calling for the Leinster hurling championship to be abolished because Kilkenny were so dominant, yet it has been very competitive since 2012.

I genuinely don’t know what you arguing for anymore. You seem fixated on the provincial championships. Should those Connacht teams be playing in Div1 to make them stronger to have an attempt at winning championship.

I think the general feeling is that the provincial championships are dead. Play them as warm up. No one really cares if they beat or not. Players in “weaker” counties opt out and head for the states. They are done.

Do you want plan 8 with 4 newly invented provinces where two robin leagues will make teams more competitive within their new province?

It’s the all Ireland series that’s been restructured.

Blowitupref

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Re: Congress
« Reply #182 on: October 08, 2021, 06:47:37 PM »
No one goes to Munster championship games anyway! You get a few at the final but the rest are ignored!

Kerry men would tell you they hardly count their Munster medals. Dublin are embarrassed collecting the Leinster Trophy these days and I doubt it’s even celebrated. Ulster counties make the most of theirs but the rest of the provinces are dead at county level. Stone dead and you can’t deny that.

Are these the scenes from something that is stone dead?








And how likely is scenes like that to be reproduced if Galway or Roscommon reach the All-Ireland quarter final by winning Div 2 or via a play off for finishing 2nd, 3rd in Div 2?
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Farrandeelin

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Re: Congress
« Reply #183 on: October 08, 2021, 07:08:24 PM »
If proposal B does go through, then the 6th place in Division 1 will feel hard done by, not bad enough to be relegated, not good enough for Sam and too good for Tailteann Cup.
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sid waddell

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Re: Congress
« Reply #184 on: October 08, 2021, 07:47:46 PM »
The gap is not the result of league structures. Your  notions on Gaelic games tend to delve into romance and this is a prime example.

The gap is a result of the semi professionalism of Gaelic Games in the early noughties, that gathered pace in the 2010s.

When a county with a footballing culture and a deep playing pool,  combine solid finances and strong leadership to put in place professional management structures, it generates a significantly higher plane of athletic, skilful and tactically astute player. And when that player comes against opponents who haven’t been exposed to these levels of management, they are then exposed on the pitch.

Need proof? Limerick have done the same thing in hurling. None of the other hurling powers are playing the same game at them at present, even though they all play in the same competitions week in week out.

——-

Smaller counties like Wexford, Sligo, Tipperary and Fermanagh have shown the gap is somewhat surmountable when a handful of generational talents align. But there’s a chicken and egg in this for counties. If they haven’t hit the place of birth jackpot by unloading 2-3 highest quality players at once, then every game they play against the top 10-12 teams in Ireland is not going to end well. For those teams will be equally well conditioned and learned… but will have better players, simply because they’ve more players to pick from. When a cluster of generational talents comes along though, it’s very easy for county boards, clubs, money men and next rung down players to throw their weight behind. They know that some good can come from it.
The rise in standards and professionalism among the strong and the relative fall in standards and professionalism and standards among the weak and the mid tier counties has been thoroughly enabled and encouraged by siloing.

You cannot but fall far behind when you are siloed in lower divisions.

If you put the most gifted students in a school year of 90 in a small class of 5 or 10 and allow them to work at a faster pace, they will leave the rest of the year, who work at a much slower pace, far behind.

That's what Division 1 is.

This should be obvious.

And it's why you consistently see teams yo-yoing between Division 1 and Division 2.

The point of redistribution of funding is to give all inter-county teams a chance to prepare in a more professional way.

Currently, there is no redistribution mechanism.

If you want a thoroughly utilitarian competition where two, or at best three or four teams can be competitive, and to hell with the rest - and it's obvious that is what you want - at least be honest about it.

You denigrate romance in sport - but without romance, competitions die.







« Last Edit: October 08, 2021, 07:50:55 PM by sid waddell »

sid waddell

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Re: Congress
« Reply #185 on: October 08, 2021, 07:54:09 PM »
No one goes to Munster championship games anyway! You get a few at the final but the rest are ignored!

Kerry men would tell you they hardly count their Munster medals. Dublin are embarrassed collecting the Leinster Trophy these days and I doubt it’s even celebrated. Ulster counties make the most of theirs but the rest of the provinces are dead at county level. Stone dead and you can’t deny that.

You’ll get league/championship now and all the games you’ll want. We’ve often tipped to see who Armagh or Monaghan are playing or even into Dublin games in the league when they are appealing. And that’s just league. The same guys won’t go to Louth championship matches as it’s going only one way. Give them competitive games and they’ll go. We’d hope to be going that way anyway but it’s a long road and provincial titles aren’t Hartes goal. The league is and all div 3 and 4 teams are the same plus some in 2.

Monaghan a great example of coming from 3 to win an ulster. But two years before that they where Div1 and competing in Croke Park with Kerry. So them in Div 3 was the exception but as a small county they’ve had to put serious effort to stay in Div1 and for no reward come championship. It’s actually probably hurt them having to play league at such a level. They’d be happy in Div1, finishing top 4 with an all Ireland quarter to look forward to. Serious reward for their efforts and clear sight at an all Ireland.
But all these competitions have been very competitive in the recent past.

You go back to 2010, Kerry and Cork drew in Killarney in a titanic tussle, and then Kerry won a second titanic tussle in extra time in Cork. Limerick seriously put it up to them in the final in Killarney. Cork beat Limerick by a point in the back door that year, going on to win the All-Ireland. And Tipp won Munster last year. Clare are reasonably competitive. If those teams were primed by a good standard of football and Kerry were not allowed feast on top quality Division 1 football, the gaps would be closer.

Leinster has the potential to be a serious battle between Dublin, Meath and Kildare. It generally was until a decade ago. And when Dublin were seriously challenged by Meath and Kildare with a Leinster title at stake, Croke Park was invariably filled.

Connacht has three good teams. Why have the other two fallen off a cliff? They're siloed in Division 4, while the other three have been Division 1 regulars.

A decade ago people were calling for the Leinster hurling championship to be abolished because Kilkenny were so dominant, yet it has been very competitive since 2012.

I genuinely don’t know what you arguing for anymore. You seem fixated on the provincial championships. Should those Connacht teams be playing in Div1 to make them stronger to have an attempt at winning championship.

I think the general feeling is that the provincial championships are dead. Play them as warm up. No one really cares if they beat or not. Players in “weaker” counties opt out and head for the states. They are done.

Do you want plan 8 with 4 newly invented provinces where two robin leagues will make teams more competitive within their new province?

It’s the all Ireland series that’s been restructured.

I've consistently said what I propose. A return to the 2017 championship format and the 1999-2007 League format. When Gaelic football was in as healthy and egalitarian a state as it ever was. Every county had the opportunity to get competitive, and most did.

armaghniac

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Re: Congress
« Reply #186 on: October 08, 2021, 08:41:39 PM »
——-

Smaller counties like Wexford, Sligo, Tipperary and Fermanagh have shown the gap is somewhat surmountable when a handful of generational talents align. But there’s a chicken and egg in this for counties. If they haven’t hit the place of birth jackpot by unloading 2-3 highest quality players at once, then every game they play against the top 10-12 teams in Ireland is not going to end well. For those teams will be equally well conditioned and learned… but will have better players, simply because they’ve more players to pick from. When a cluster of generational talents comes along though, it’s very easy for county boards, clubs, money men and next rung down players to throw their weight behind. They know that some good can come from it.

Of course there are 10 counties with a decent population and concentration on football and they will generally beat the counties above. But beyond those 10 counties is one which will have better players simply because they’ve more players to pick from. And that is the biggest thing wrong with the championship. 
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

dublin7

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Re: Congress
« Reply #187 on: October 08, 2021, 09:12:31 PM »
Why is Sid Wexford as reason to keep the current system? As someone who's parents live in Wexford they are the perfect example not to keep the current system.

Wexford football was successful not because of the competition structures, but because they lucked out with once in a generation talent in Matty Forde and a few other decent players.

Currently they're in Div 4 and no matter what coaching and money you throw at them the players aren't there and their only chance of progression is Plan B and playing games against teams of similar standard. Getting battered by the dubs (or another Leinster county) will do nothing for Wexford football next summer
« Last Edit: October 08, 2021, 09:15:17 PM by dublin7 »

sid waddell

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Re: Congress
« Reply #188 on: October 08, 2021, 09:23:32 PM »
Why is Sid Wexford as reason to keep the current system? As someone who's parents live in Wexford they are the perfect example not to keep the current system.

Wexford football was successful not because of the competition structures, but because they lucked out with once in a generation talent in Matty Forde and a few other decent players.

Currently they're in Div 4 and no matter what coaching and money you throw at them the players aren't there and their only chance of progression is Plan B and playing games against teams of similar standard. Getting battered by the dubs (or another Leinster county) will do nothing for Wexford football next summer

But which system are you talking about?

League or championship?

It's often said that weaker teams take the League more seriously. So how has this League system benefitted Wexford?

My take would be that good competition formats can't on their own make a team like Wexford good, but bad competition formats can certainly keep them bad.

And I think the current League format has definitely hindered them. There is no hope there, it has been destroyed.

So change the system. Change the League system.

Although - Wexford still gave Dublin a right rattle in this year's championship. Why should they have been denied that chance?


dublin7

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Re: Congress
« Reply #189 on: October 08, 2021, 11:22:22 PM »
Wexford are a div 4 side. That's not due to funding or coaching, but a lack of talent. Under the current system they have no chance of winning a Leinster title never mind Sam. The only way they'll improve is playing more games against teams of a similar standard in the summer months rather than on bogs in Jan/Feb. The league is a positive for teams like Wexford as they get to play every week against a team of similar standard so they learn what their strengths and weaknesses are.

They could play the likes of the dubs every week for a year and learn nothing. Dublin are so far ahead of them they're not competing with them, they're just playing negative football to keep the scorelines respectful and that helps no one



However under plan B they'll be up against sides of similar standards so they have something to aim for come the championship in the summer rather than a beating in Leinster and then a pointless qualifier.

Why do you think the players from counties like Longford & Clare have come out in support of plan B?

They're the one's making the sacrifices training and if they are calling for Plan B who are we to criticize them?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2021, 11:27:24 PM by dublin7 »

sid waddell

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Re: Congress
« Reply #190 on: October 09, 2021, 12:14:55 AM »
Wexford are a div 4 side. That's not due to funding or coaching, but a lack of talent. Under the current system they have no chance of winning a Leinster title never mind Sam. The only way they'll improve is playing more games against teams of a similar standard in the summer months rather than on bogs in Jan/Feb. The league is a positive for teams like Wexford as they get to play every week against a team of similar standard so they learn what their strengths and weaknesses are.

They could play the likes of the dubs every week for a year and learn nothing. Dublin are so far ahead of them they're not competing with them, they're just playing negative football to keep the scorelines respectful and that helps no one



However under plan B they'll be up against sides of similar standards so they have something to aim for come the championship in the summer rather than a beating in Leinster and then a pointless qualifier.

Why do you think the players from counties like Longford & Clare have come out in support of plan B?

They're the one's making the sacrifices training and if they are calling for Plan B who are we to criticize them?
Well I think with Wexford it is partly down to the county board very much refocussing on hurling as the main sport in recent years and effectively forgetting about football. That sort of stuff filters down. Being stuck in Division 4 doesn't help that. In the old League system, every county was at worst one good campaign away from getting promoted to Division 1A or 1B. Whereas Division 4 is a very lonely place to be, the road back is long, and teams at a higher level are much harder to catch up with because they have the benefit of several years higher standard football under their belts. It's a much longer road back than before.

With respect to their efforts, I don't think players are the best judges of what will make a good championship for the paying public, which will keep the championship at the centre of Irish life. It's the paying public which matters most here and maximising public attention.

I mean Declan Browne may have considered winning the Tommy Murphy Cup in 2005 as a career highlight. But nobody else cared.


Eire90

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Re: Congress
« Reply #191 on: October 09, 2021, 12:18:00 AM »
if the league was seen as very important or par with the all ireland then you could get away with a 32 team open knockout basically you would have two versions of the all Ireland and if you win both competitions you would be seen as the undisputed champions.

Eire90

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Re: Congress
« Reply #192 on: October 09, 2021, 12:19:51 AM »
If proposal B does go through, then the 6th place in Division 1 will feel hard done by, not bad enough to be relegated, not good enough for Sam and too good for Tailteann Cup.

the way i see it its  up to them to win their games

Eire90

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Re: Congress
« Reply #193 on: October 09, 2021, 12:21:51 AM »
if a division 4 team gets to quarter final but then  gets a  hammering  will that be seen as a a success

Eire90

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Re: Congress
« Reply #194 on: October 09, 2021, 03:16:22 AM »
i thought ulster had a reputation if being big strong tough guys up for the challenge so why are they moaning that the ulster championship might be played in slightly colder weather and a bit of mud.