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GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: Baile Brigín 2 on March 01, 2021, 02:47:55 AM

Title: Congress
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on March 01, 2021, 02:47:55 AM
Surprised no thread.

Some important changes agreed.

-Sinbin in hurling
-Split Season
- 16 teams in club championships

And absolutely critical, the topic of every GAA discussion. A ban on 'duel captains'. Only one person allowed lift a trophy.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/0227/1199707-gaa-congress-2021-updates/
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eamonnca1 on March 01, 2021, 06:02:23 AM
I once saw an underage game where four captains got to lift the trophy. Ridiculous. Pick one captain and stop dicking around.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on March 01, 2021, 07:52:26 AM
I once saw an underage game where four captains got to lift the trophy. Ridiculous. Pick one captain and stop dicking around.

And that needed a rule change?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on March 01, 2021, 08:35:10 AM
Given that I'm a normal person I wasn't following the GAA Congress

Somebody please tell me the attacking mark has been abolished

Load of shite

I did stumble across the news about the banning of two people lifting trophies

Imagine sitting there all winter thinking to yourself "this craic of two people lifting a trophy rather than one, oh it makes me sick, the party's over, just wait 'til my motion banning it passes, that'll sicken a few holes!"

Makes being a parking attendant seem like a true life vocation in comparison
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on March 01, 2021, 10:12:01 AM
“All winter”.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Louther on March 01, 2021, 10:29:08 AM
It’s actually a bit mad to think that such huge changes have been made relating to cynical foul in hurling and football and that a split season has been agreed but lot of comments on social media have been round the One captain rule (which I agree is totally daft and shouldn’t merit discussion never mind a vote at congress that gets rid of it, it’s harmless FFS)

What will happen now is that come summer (when games are on) there will be constant and widespread outrage that these rules where introduced and people will question why and how and when this happened and XYZ wasn’t consulted on it.

Then when final played in July next year be more outrage that we’ve given up months to other sports and we’ll lose a generation. All the while offering no solutions.

It’s the way the times are done in the GAA. Voted change followed by outrage.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on March 01, 2021, 11:42:58 AM
Quote
Motion 24: This motion proposes to extend the scope of the rule dealing with abuse of a racist, sectarian, or anti-inclusion nature against an opponent to also include such abuse against a match official.

Unsurprisingly passed by acclaim
Guess this means any derogatory reference to "free staters" will now carry a stern sanction

Great stuff - so as well as racist and sectarian bigotry not being tolerated, anti-Irish bigotry by people from Northern Ireland will not be tolerated

Quote
Motion 26: Propose to make it a foul to distract someone by waving hurl/arms while they are taking a puck-out/kick-out or sideline puck/kick.

Passed by acclaim
Good God

Imagine passing this motion for puckouts and sidelines but then bizarrely not for frees

Who the f**k comes up with this nonsense

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on March 01, 2021, 12:24:37 PM


It’s the way the times are done in the GAA. Voted change followed by outrage.

So true  ::)
Some people never got over the abolition of point posts and reduction to 17 a side ;D
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: rosnarun on March 01, 2021, 03:48:16 PM


It’s the way the times are done in the GAA. Voted change followed by outrage.

So true  ::)
Some people never got over the abolition of point posts and reduction to 17 a side ;D
its the wrestling for the frees I miss . game never the same since
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: johnnycool on March 10, 2021, 04:11:07 PM
And even less discussion on the GAA "freezing" the loss of earnings part of GAA players insurance.

Self employed lads will need their own insurance now, but I'd recommend it for all
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: delgany on March 11, 2021, 08:06:01 PM
And even less discussion on the GAA "freezing" the loss of earnings part of GAA players insurance.

Self employed lads will need their own insurance now, but I'd recommend it for all

The injury scheme is rubbish for self employed, even when wages were included. You had to have certified accounts to get wages paid. How many young fellas would have that ? 
No physio appointments before an operation, It basically pays for operations. Yet it lost €2 million a year. Too many ripping it
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Downtothewire on March 12, 2021, 07:16:48 PM
And even less discussion on the GAA "freezing" the loss of earnings part of GAA players insurance.

Self employed lads will need their own insurance now, but I'd recommend it for all

The injury scheme is rubbish for self employed, even when wages were included. You had to have certified accounts to get wages paid. How many young fellas would have that ? 
No physio appointments before an operation, It basically pays for operations. Yet it lost €2 million a year. Too many ripping it

Good to see loss of wages removed from the scheme. A lot were ripping the arse out of it. Perhaps they will pay out more for operations. ACL operation is about £6k but scheme pays out €4.5k and no physio
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on March 16, 2021, 07:34:46 AM
All county club championships should be straight knockout.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: johnnycool on March 16, 2021, 01:50:35 PM
All county club championships should be straight knockout.

When you've only four teams?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on March 16, 2021, 06:59:43 PM
yes you have leagues to have  multi games format
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eamonnca1 on March 16, 2021, 07:44:52 PM
Quote
Motion 24: This motion proposes to extend the scope of the rule dealing with abuse of a racist, sectarian, or anti-inclusion nature against an opponent to also include such abuse against a match official.

Unsurprisingly passed by acclaim
Guess this means any derogatory reference to "free staters" will now carry a stern sanction

Great stuff - so as well as racist and sectarian bigotry not being tolerated, anti-Irish bigotry by people from Northern Ireland will not be tolerated

Quote
Motion 26: Propose to make it a foul to distract someone by waving hurl/arms while they are taking a puck-out/kick-out or sideline puck/kick.

Passed by acclaim
Good God

Imagine passing this motion for puckouts and sidelines but then bizarrely not for frees

Who the f**k comes up with this nonsense

If someone takes a free and puts it wide after someone's been distracting him, he can take it again.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: delgany on March 16, 2021, 07:58:40 PM
Quote
Motion 24: This motion proposes to extend the scope of the rule dealing with abuse of a racist, sectarian, or anti-inclusion nature against an opponent to also include such abuse against a match official.

Unsurprisingly passed by acclaim
Guess this means any derogatory reference to "free staters" will now carry a stern sanction

Great stuff - so as well as racist and sectarian bigotry not being tolerated, anti-Irish bigotry by people from Northern Ireland will not be tolerated

Quote
Motion 26: Propose to make it a foul to distract someone by waving hurl/arms while they are taking a puck-out/kick-out or sideline puck/kick.

Passed by acclaim
Good God

Imagine passing this motion for puckouts and sidelines but then bizarrely not for frees

Who the f**k comes up with this nonsense

I think , the frees were already in the rules
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: johnnycool on March 17, 2021, 09:39:54 AM
Quote
Motion 24: This motion proposes to extend the scope of the rule dealing with abuse of a racist, sectarian, or anti-inclusion nature against an opponent to also include such abuse against a match official.

Unsurprisingly passed by acclaim
Guess this means any derogatory reference to "free staters" will now carry a stern sanction

Great stuff - so as well as racist and sectarian bigotry not being tolerated, anti-Irish bigotry by people from Northern Ireland will not be tolerated

Quote
Motion 26: Propose to make it a foul to distract someone by waving hurl/arms while they are taking a puck-out/kick-out or sideline puck/kick.

Passed by acclaim
Good God

Imagine passing this motion for puckouts and sidelines but then bizarrely not for frees

Who the f**k comes up with this nonsense

I think , the frees were already in the rules

You can still stand with your arms/hurl in the air, just can't move them.

TBH I never knew this was an issue, but there you go.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: rodney trotter on October 02, 2021, 10:03:45 PM
GPA backing League based Championship https://t.co/u7hLXpVauX?amp=1

Special Congress on October 23rd.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 03, 2021, 02:14:06 AM
i originally thought it was a terrible format but thinking futher it might be ok i am in two minds on it its not very casual friendly tho but i suppose casuals do not really look into tournament formats.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 03, 2021, 02:19:37 AM
would the 2nd team in division 2  play the division 4 winner and 3rd division 2 play division 3 winner in this format
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 03, 2021, 08:40:42 AM
Will there still be 8 teams in each division. Haven't given this much time nor thought given the disappointment of over 3 weeks ago.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 03, 2021, 10:04:51 AM
So with this option B, after the national league decides positions, it’s an AI championship involving 8 teams? So QF, SF and F. 3 games to win an All Ireland??
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Blowitupref on October 03, 2021, 01:43:22 PM
Will there still be 8 teams in each division. Haven't given this much time nor thought given the disappointment of over 3 weeks ago.

It will be 8 game Division.

Using this format for how things finished 2020, the top 5 in Div 1 was Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Galway, Donegal and Div 2 winners Roscommon all 6 would go into the quarter finals

2nd, 3rd in Div 2 was Kildare, Armagh and Div 3,4 winners Cork, Limerick would play off for the final two quarter spots.

The likes of Monaghan, Mayo, Meath out before the championship knock out stages but according to some journalists this format has no flaws and a no brainer to vote in.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: RedHand88 on October 03, 2021, 02:04:02 PM
Having Limerick and no Mayo or Monaghan is a bit.... odd.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 03, 2021, 03:19:05 PM
Will there still be 8 teams in each division. Haven't given this much time nor thought given the disappointment of over 3 weeks ago.

It will be 8 game Division.

Using this format for how things finished 2020, the top 5 in Div 1 was Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Galway, Donegal and Div 2 winners Roscommon all 6 would go into the quarter finals

2nd, 3rd in Div 2 was Kildare, Armagh and Div 3,4 winners Cork, Limerick would play off for the final two quarter spots.

The likes of Monaghan, Mayo, Meath out before the championship knock out stages but according to some journalists this format has no flaws and a no brainer to vote in.

Somewhere along the line it’ll hopefully dawn on you that in such a situation, their championship season consisted of 7 games, which should be plenty enough to gauge whether they’re genuine contenders or not.

American football has probably the fairest, most egalitarian way of deciding their champions. They have to have the consistency, depth and resolve to maintain focus during a league campaign. And those that apply themselves more seriously in the league get more favourable opening to the playoffs. Then to win the thing, they have to have the spark, determination, energy, skill and luck needed to see off at least 3 of the best 4 teams in a month. Everything is put to the test over the season, and at the end of it, it’s a rare, rare thing to think of the champions as anything other than the best team in the competition.

We are going the same way. The sport will thrive on this.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Blowitupref on October 03, 2021, 04:04:16 PM
Will there still be 8 teams in each division. Haven't given this much time nor thought given the disappointment of over 3 weeks ago.

It will be 8 game Division.

Using this format for how things finished 2020, the top 5 in Div 1 was Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Galway, Donegal and Div 2 winners Roscommon all 6 would go into the quarter finals

2nd, 3rd in Div 2 was Kildare, Armagh and Div 3,4 winners Cork, Limerick would play off for the final two quarter spots.

The likes of Monaghan, Mayo, Meath out before the championship knock out stages but according to some journalists this format has no flaws and a no brainer to vote in.

Somewhere along the line it’ll hopefully dawn on you that in such a situation, their championship season consisted of 7 games, which should be plenty enough to gauge whether they’re genuine contenders or not.

American football has probably the fairest, most egalitarian way of deciding their champions. They have to have the consistency, depth and resolve to maintain focus during a league campaign. And those that apply themselves more seriously in the league get more favourable opening to the playoffs. Then to win the thing, they have to have the spark, determination, energy, skill and luck needed to see off at least 3 of the best 4 teams in a month. Everything is put to the test over the season, and at the end of it, it’s a rare, rare thing to think of the champions as anything other than the best team in the competition.

We are going the same way. The sport will thrive on this.

The 2020 format had 7 NFL games which was a decent preparation for the championship for managers to try out new players and systems of play and for a lot of Div 3,4 teams the league was their most important competition as they looked to build up the already tiered system in place.

Mayo, Meath, Monaghan eliminated because they played in stronger division while their spots taken by possibly Div 3,winners is far from fairest system for the last 8 of the championship.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 03, 2021, 04:11:32 PM
I know you’re struggling with this. But if proposal B goes though, then the National League won’t be a warm up competition. It’ll be the championship. What it was before will never matter again.

——

If you think this is a bad thing…..

What other elite grade sport has a season in which over 65% of their games are a warm up competition?

None.

Reason?

It’s a daft and pointless concept to develop top level sport and then treat it like a nursery.

Utterly f**king daft.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Blowitupref on October 03, 2021, 04:23:34 PM
I know you’re struggling with this. But if proposal B goes though, then the National League won’t be a warm up competition. It’ll be the championship. What it was before will never matter again.

——

If you think this is a bad thing…..

What other elite grade sport has a season in which over 65% of their games are a warm up competition?

None.

Reason?

It’s a daft and pointless concept to develop top level sport and then treat it like a nursery.

Utterly f**king daft.
Far from struggling with it, pointing out its not a flawless format as some journalists are trying to convince us. And I haven't even mentioned the total dead rubbers that this B Proposal will bring at least the dead rubbers in the 2020 league format was used by some as preparation for the championship.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 03, 2021, 04:34:18 PM
Will there still be 8 teams in each division. Haven't given this much time nor thought given the disappointment of over 3 weeks ago.

It will be 8 game Division.

Using this format for how things finished 2020, the top 5 in Div 1 was Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Galway, Donegal and Div 2 winners Roscommon all 6 would go into the quarter finals

2nd, 3rd in Div 2 was Kildare, Armagh and Div 3,4 winners Cork, Limerick would play off for the final two quarter spots.

The likes of Monaghan, Mayo, Meath out before the championship knock out stages but according to some journalists this format has no flaws and a no brainer to vote in.

Somewhere along the line it’ll hopefully dawn on you that in such a situation, their championship season consisted of 7 games, which should be plenty enough to gauge whether they’re genuine contenders or not.

American football has probably the fairest, most egalitarian way of deciding their champions. They have to have the consistency, depth and resolve to maintain focus during a league campaign. And those that apply themselves more seriously in the league get more favourable opening to the playoffs. Then to win the thing, they have to have the spark, determination, energy, skill and luck needed to see off at least 3 of the best 4 teams in a month. Everything is put to the test over the season, and at the end of it, it’s a rare, rare thing to think of the champions as anything other than the best team in the competition.

We are going the same way. The sport will thrive on this.

Going the same way of a franchise sport?  While GAA HQ are at it should they allow county teams to be bought out by billionaires and those wealthy owners pick up Sam Maguire instead of the captains. The player drafts should bring a great interest..
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 03, 2021, 04:37:22 PM
There’s no flawless format, big this one is exponentially better than any previous format over the past 130 years.

As an aside, for the past 15-20 years, each season, the championship has thrown up more dead rubbers than the league. For you always have a chance of a decent game when it’s two evenly matched teams playing. You have absolutely no chance when one team is substantially strongly than the other.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 03, 2021, 04:39:08 PM
Will there still be 8 teams in each division. Haven't given this much time nor thought given the disappointment of over 3 weeks ago.

It will be 8 game Division.

Using this format for how things finished 2020, the top 5 in Div 1 was Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Galway, Donegal and Div 2 winners Roscommon all 6 would go into the quarter finals

2nd, 3rd in Div 2 was Kildare, Armagh and Div 3,4 winners Cork, Limerick would play off for the final two quarter spots.

The likes of Monaghan, Mayo, Meath out before the championship knock out stages but according to some journalists this format has no flaws and a no brainer to vote in.

Somewhere along the line it’ll hopefully dawn on you that in such a situation, their championship season consisted of 7 games, which should be plenty enough to gauge whether they’re genuine contenders or not.

American football has probably the fairest, most egalitarian way of deciding their champions. They have to have the consistency, depth and resolve to maintain focus during a league campaign. And those that apply themselves more seriously in the league get more favourable opening to the playoffs. Then to win the thing, they have to have the spark, determination, energy, skill and luck needed to see off at least 3 of the best 4 teams in a month. Everything is put to the test over the season, and at the end of it, it’s a rare, rare thing to think of the champions as anything other than the best team in the competition.

We are going the same way. The sport will thrive on this.

Going the same way of a franchise sport?  While GAA HQ are at it should they allow county teams to be bought out by billionaires and those wealthy owners pick up Sam Maguire instead of the captains. The player drafts should bring a great interest..

Sorry but it’s would seem that while I’m talking about apples, you’re in the toilet throwing up some pears.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 03, 2021, 05:36:50 PM
Is it a yes know vote on
Proposal A
and if that doesn't get 60%
Yes/No on Proposal B.
Is there scope for amendments from the floor?
If neither A or B gets through....
Is the 3rd year of the "Super 8"(sic) the only show in town?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Blowitupref on October 03, 2021, 05:42:57 PM
Is it a yes know vote on
Proposal A
and if that doesn't get 60%
Yes/No on Proposal B.
Is there scope for amendments from the floor?
If neither A or B gets through....
Is the 3rd year of the "Super 8"(sic) the only show in town?

According to the Irish examiner the Super 8s are unlikely to happen in what will be a split county and club season next year. Status quo would be the 2001 to 2017 format.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 03, 2021, 05:56:36 PM
Will that decision need a vote?
The Tailteann  will still be there for D3 and 4 teams (unless they make a Provincial Final)?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Blowitupref on October 03, 2021, 06:04:49 PM
Will that decision need a vote?
The Tailteann  will still be there for D3 and 4 teams (unless they make a Provincial Final)?
Don't think so. Yes Tailteann Cup will be up and running next year. So if we have the 2001 to 2017 format in place next year it will be less qualifier games.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: tintin25 on October 03, 2021, 07:31:23 PM
If proposal B gets voted through, am I right in saying Tailteann still gets played but there is no automatic entry into the following years Senior championship for the winners?  If so, then it'll definitely fall by wayside and it's another Tommy Murphy...it's abit pointless.  I do see the merits in proposal B in that there is an opportunity for a Div 3 and 4 team to reach the knock stages, so you'd think this will make these divisions really competitive, but the reality is that any team finishing outside of top spot isn't gonna be arsed with it.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 03, 2021, 07:56:42 PM
Will that decision need a vote?
The Tailteann  will still be there for D3 and 4 teams (unless they make a Provincial Final)?
Don't think so.
Rule 6.28(iii) T O. would have to be amended to bring back knocknout Qtr Finals?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 03, 2021, 08:27:39 PM
Having Limerick and no Mayo or Monaghan is a bit.... odd.

Yeah. It could encourage relegation for teams who are inconsistent for 'long-term gain'.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 03, 2021, 09:12:27 PM
is there going to be league finals so will division 3 and 4 league finals would basically be a part of the all ireland aswell
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 03, 2021, 09:16:24 PM
So with this option B, after the national league decides positions, it’s an AI championship involving 8 teams? So QF, SF and F. 3 games to win an All Ireland??

i was going to write that aswell you could say it now only takes 3 games to win an all ireland if you dont count the league aspect
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 03, 2021, 09:22:34 PM
if the league is going to play such a big role in the all ireland then why market is as the league maybe better to rename them all ireland championship division A/B/C/D
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 03, 2021, 09:24:20 PM
There was a hilarious segment on Off The Ball AM the other morning where Ger Gilroy and co. were imagining a fantastical future under Proposal B, with stadiums packed out every week.

Delusion barely begins to explain it. It was like an infomercial. Mike Levy and Amazing Discoveries probably had more integrity about what they were selling.

Monaghan played Kerry in the Super 8s in Clones in high summer in what was to all intents and purposes an All-Ireland quarter-final, and it barely drew 17k in a stadium which holds 30k.

The promised glorious future won't happen.






Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 03, 2021, 10:09:03 PM
A Division 1 Team would need to win about 3 games at least to get into the top 5 then the 3 knockout games so if you count the league aspect then you need to win  6 games at least to win all ireland tho you can now  lose 3 games and win all ireland  if this proposal is voted in.I hear the ulster president not happy
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 03, 2021, 10:19:11 PM
or 2 wins a draw could get you in top 5 i went  back on results i think mayo finished 5th one year with 2 wins and a draw
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 03, 2021, 10:28:05 PM
A Division 1 Team would need to win about 3 games at least to get into the top 5 then the 3 knockout games so if you count the league aspect then you need to win  6 games at least to win all ireland tho you can now  lose 3 games and win all ireland  if this proposal is voted in.I hear the ulster president not happy

I’d imagine he is

Basically a very competitive Ulster championship gets turned into a meaningless McKenna cup competition,and all  because they chucked millions at Dublin which ruined Leinster, and because Kerry are shite at Hurling so decided to concentrate on football , which ruined Munster
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 03, 2021, 11:09:02 PM
give the four provincial champions 2 league points each maybe i know that does sound ridiculous but it might keep the provincial boards happy
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 03, 2021, 11:52:34 PM
I hear the ulster president not happy
The day you meet a happy Ulster person ...
They're only ever happy if they're moaning :D
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 03, 2021, 11:57:20 PM
There was a hilarious segment on Off The Ball AM the other morning where Ger Gilroy and co. were imagining a fantastical future under Proposal B, with stadiums packed out every week.

Delusion barely begins to explain it. It was like an infomercial. Mike Levy and Amazing Discoveries probably had more integrity about what they were selling.

Monaghan played Kerry in the Super 8s in Clones in high summer in what was to all intents and purposes an All-Ireland quarter-final, and it barely drew 17k in a stadium which holds 30k.

The promised glorious future won't happen.

Perspective is everything.

17,000 is pretty much a full house at Ravenhill or RDS.

It’s about 5 times a league of Ireland attendance.

If that’s what the GAA is capable of dragging up for for a quarter final between geographically disposed teams, I really can’t see how it could be described as a fail.

17,000 people. Ireland.

Perspective is everything.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 04, 2021, 12:07:37 AM
There was a hilarious segment on Off The Ball AM the other morning where Ger Gilroy and co. were imagining a fantastical future under Proposal B, with stadiums packed out every week.

Delusion barely begins to explain it. It was like an infomercial. Mike Levy and Amazing Discoveries probably had more integrity about what they were selling.

Monaghan played Kerry in the Super 8s in Clones in high summer in what was to all intents and purposes an All-Ireland quarter-final, and it barely drew 17k in a stadium which holds 30k.

The promised glorious future won't happen.

Perspective is everything.

17,000 is pretty much a full house at Ravenhill or RDS.

It’s about 5 times a league of Ireland attendance.

If that’s what the GAA is capable of dragging up for for a quarter final between geographically disposed teams, I really can’t see how it could be described as a fail.

17,000 people. Ireland.

Perspective is everything.
It's barely over half what an Ulster final attracts without fail.

And that was in high summer. Monaghan v Kerry was played on Sunday July 22nd.

It wasn't played on a cold April afternoon with Manchester City v Liverpool on the box at the same time.

If you want to downgrade your showpiece competition, playing it as a dishwater dull league format in April and May seems a very good way of doing that.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 12:14:22 AM
It’s 17,000 people.

Which makes it roughly between 1 in every 350-400 people in Ireland who attended the event.

To extrapolate this to the population of England, it would be an the attendance of circa 160,000.

——

Do not forget that Monaghan’s population would fit in a Dublin suburb, and that Kerry fans were looking at a 7-10 hour round trip for a televised match.

——

17,000 isn’t a shame.

—-

17,000 is extraordinary.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 04, 2021, 12:23:24 AM
It’s 17,000 people.

Which makes it roughly between 1 in every 350-400 people in Ireland who attended the event.

To extrapolate this to the population of England, it would be an the attendance of circa 160,000.

——

Do not forget that Monaghan’s population would fit in a Dublin suburb, and that Kerry fans were looking at a 7-10 hour round trip for a televised match.

——

17,000 isn’t a shame.

—-

17,000 is extraordinary.
On the contrary, it's a derisory crowd for a match of that importance.

Kerry and Monaghan played to not far off a full house in Croke Park in an All-Ireland quarter-final in 2007.

Another thing is that 17k might look alright in Ravenhill, a stadium which is designed to hold only 17k, but it looks shit in Clones. It looks like ten men and their dogs. And it looks worse again in Croke Park.

There's no reason to think the league stage attendances will increase very much on NFL attendances.

There is not and never has been a culture of week on week large attendances for GAA.

Even the ultra-competitive Munster hurling championship round robin has had some very poor attendances.

Plus the scheduling and the format will suit two teams, Kerry and most of all Dublin.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 12:36:20 AM
Laugh out f**king loud.

By your criteria, if it’s anything fewer than 1 in 300 people on the island who cannot take the time, expense and ardour of attending a mid series match, then it’s a failure.

1 in 300 people.

Mental.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Armagh18 on October 04, 2021, 02:35:52 AM
Laugh out f**king loud.

By your criteria, if it’s anything fewer than 1 in 300 people on the island who cannot take the time, expense and ardour of attending a mid series match, then it’s a failure.

1 in 300 people.

Mental.
if you think an all ireland semi final not selling out fecking Clones is acceptable you need your head looked at

EDIT Should read quarter**
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 08:13:07 AM
Why are you talking about a semi final?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Armagh18 on October 04, 2021, 08:14:56 AM
Why are you talking about a semi final?
my mistake. Will edit now but point stil stands.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 08:25:06 AM
See it wasn’t a quarter final either, of which there’s 4. It was a Super 8 match, of which there’s 12.

And it was mid table in terms of attendance figures for a super 8 match, nowhere near the bottom.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: tiempo on October 04, 2021, 08:43:46 AM
More evidence of Kerry fear of the border if nothing else
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Armagh18 on October 04, 2021, 09:18:15 AM
See it wasn’t a quarter final either, of which there’s 4. It was a Super 8 match, of which there’s 12.

And it was mid table in terms of attendance figures for a super 8 match, nowhere near the bottom.
Sure it was winner goes to the semi loser goes home was it not? Basically a knock out quarter final. Anyway the super 8’s need to go.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 04, 2021, 09:21:27 AM
See it wasn’t a quarter final either, of which there’s 4. It was a Super 8 match, of which there’s 12.

And it was mid table in terms of attendance figures for a super 8 match, nowhere near the bottom.
If you're trying to make a case for a league system, you're actually doing a great job of making a case against it.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 04, 2021, 09:27:38 AM
See it wasn’t a quarter final either, of which there’s 4. It was a Super 8 match, of which there’s 12.

And it was mid table in terms of attendance figures for a super 8 match, nowhere near the bottom.
Sure it was winner goes to the semi loser goes home was it not? Basically a knock out quarter final. Anyway the super 8’s need to go.
Had Monaghan won, Kerry were eliminated. Had Kerry won, they would have romped into the semis because they were always going to thump an already eliminated Kildare by a massive score. That would have meant Monaghan would have had to beat Galway by four or five points or something like that in what would have been an effective knockout game.

As it was, Monaghan easily pushed over an already qualified Galway in the final game and Kerry's late rally to draw in Clones counted for nothing.

Galway rolling over and having their bellies tickled by Monaghan set the tone for them rolling over and having their bellies tickled by Dublin the following week.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Armagh18 on October 04, 2021, 09:34:18 AM
See it wasn’t a quarter final either, of which there’s 4. It was a Super 8 match, of which there’s 12.

And it was mid table in terms of attendance figures for a super 8 match, nowhere near the bottom.
Sure it was winner goes to the semi loser goes home was it not? Basically a knock out quarter final. Anyway the super 8’s need to go.
Had Monaghan won, Kerry were eliminated. Had Kerry won, they would have romped into the semis because they were always going to thump an already eliminated Kildare by a massive score. That would have meant Monaghan would have had to beat Galway by four or five points or something like that in what would have been an effective knockout game.

As it was, Monaghan easily pushed over an already qualified Galway in the final game and Kerry's late rally to draw in Clones counted for nothing.

Galway rolling over and having their bellies tickled by Monaghan set the tone for them rolling over and having their bellies tickled by Dublin the following week.
Fair enough. Any system other than straight knock out only favours the big teams- always a chance of catching Dublin/Kerry cold on the day but if they’ve a second chance you’ll rarely catch them twice.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 09:37:30 AM
No seanie I’m not. But as per form it would seem you are about to take this thread off on a tangent to suit your agenda.

Ireland is an island of some 6.5m people.

Clones sells out for one match per year, and has done as long as I’ve been alive. Croke park sells out for 2 matches per year.

10,000 people watching any event in Ireland is a success story.

Anyone who expects GAA matches to regularly reach 25k attendances, either cannot count, or refuses to use 6.5m as the baseline.



Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 04, 2021, 09:56:33 AM
The super 8’s weren’t well attended. It’s like attending 3 provincial finals in 3 weeks. Lots of people can’t afford it. That’s what it comes down to.

Not only that , but teams might already have won their province or come the scenic route to get  there. So that’s maybe 7 or 8 big games in 9-10 weeks. That’s considerable cost to ordinary working folk

The super 8’s were a money racket , and  fans knew it, which was why they voted with their feet
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 04, 2021, 10:03:27 AM
See it wasn’t a quarter final either, of which there’s 4. It was a Super 8 match, of which there’s 12.

And it was mid table in terms of attendance figures for a super 8 match, nowhere near the bottom.
Sure it was winner goes to the semi loser goes home was it not? Basically a knock out quarter final. Anyway the super 8’s need to go.
Had Monaghan won, Kerry were eliminated. Had Kerry won, they would have romped into the semis because they were always going to thump an already eliminated Kildare by a massive score. That would have meant Monaghan would have had to beat Galway by four or five points or something like that in what would have been an effective knockout game.

As it was, Monaghan easily pushed over an already qualified Galway in the final game and Kerry's late rally to draw in Clones counted for nothing.

Galway rolling over and having their bellies tickled by Monaghan set the tone for them rolling over and having their bellies tickled by Dublin the following week.
Fair enough. Any system other than straight knock out only favours the big teams- always a chance of catching Dublin/Kerry cold on the day but if they’ve a second chance you’ll rarely catch them twice.

Not only that but the proposed new timing of the championship also favours Dublin and Kerry. Teams like Mayo and Donegal rely a lot on players based outside the county, who are often students in colleges a long way away from the county.

Dublin are not affected by this and my understanding is Kerry are less affected by it than Mayo or Donegal.

So that means it's much harder for the likes of Mayo and Donegal to be at full tilt in the spring months when the evenings are dark and travel is more difficult and you can't get the whole panel together as much. Plus students are consumed with exams in April and May.

Generally with Mayo over the last decade there has been a pattern where they just do enough to avoid relegation in the league in the spring and then crank things up during the long summer months to reach a position where they can have a proper crack at Dublin come August and September.

And league systems suit teams with large panels.

So any which way you cut it, this Proposal B loads the dice heavily in favour of Dublin and Kerry and an effective procession of a championship.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 04, 2021, 10:15:34 AM
The super 8’s weren’t well attended. It’s like attending 3 provincial finals in 3 weeks. Lots of people can’t afford it. That’s what it comes down to.

Not only that , but teams might already have won their province or come the scenic route to get  there. So that’s maybe 7 or 8 big games in 9-10 weeks. That’s considerable cost to ordinary working folk

The super 8’s were a money racket , and  fans knew it, which was why they voted with their feet
People go to inter-county matches when they know something is at stake, and for the occasion.

People come from far and wide to Ulster finals and Munster hurling finals. They are magical occasions which give a rhythm and a hope to Irish life.

When you go to an Ulster final, you go because i) something important is at stake in a sporting sense, and ii) because you're living a tradition that has been built up over a century. You go for the traffic jams, for the dead heat of mid-summer, taking in the atmosphere in the Diamond, then the walk down Fermanagh Street, a couple of pre-match pints in some sweatbox of a pub, the smell of the burger and chip vans, the walk up the hill to the ground, the cauldron atmosphere of the arena itself, and the excitement and teeming humanity of the whole thing.

It's the same with Munster hurling finals or Kerry v Cork in Killarney, if Cork are any good. In Connacht people rightly bemoan the loss of Tuam as a major venue because it was a Mecca, especially when Galway played Mayo.

You can't buy these occasions and these traditions, and once you rip them up, they're gone forever, replaced by a rationalised, utilitarian, soulless pig of a championship.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 04, 2021, 10:51:11 AM
I go to games to support my team County or Club.
I have no interest in smells of chip vans or the 2 games a year big day types.
Anyway Proposals A and B provide for Provincial Finals so Kerry can continue to thrash hurling Counties 9 years out of 10.
The mythical Munster Hurling Final is now simply a  local squabble to decide who plays in the AI semi and quarter finals.
The Leinster SFC has been a procession 15 of the last 16 years while Dublin and Kerry have won 9 of the last 10 AIs.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 04, 2021, 11:09:50 AM
I go to games to support my team County or Club.
I have no interest in smells of chip vans or the 2 games a year big day types.
Anyway Proposals A and B provide for Provincial Finals so Kerry can continue to thrash hurling Counties 9 years out of 10.
The mythical Munster Hurling Final is now simply a  local squabble to decide who plays in the AI semi and quarter finals.
The Leinster SFC has been a procession 15 of the last 16 years while Dublin and Kerry have won 9 of the last 10 AIs.
It's ironic that the self proclaimed "true Gaels" are the people who least understand what makes the GAA tick and least understand what needs to be done to maintain its place at the centre of Irish life.

It's ironic that the self proclaimed "true Gaels" are those who think like generic sports marketing suits.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Armagh18 on October 04, 2021, 11:28:53 AM
The super 8’s weren’t well attended. It’s like attending 3 provincial finals in 3 weeks. Lots of people can’t afford it. That’s what it comes down to.

Not only that , but teams might already have won their province or come the scenic route to get  there. So that’s maybe 7 or 8 big games in 9-10 weeks. That’s considerable cost to ordinary working folk

The super 8’s were a money racket , and  fans knew it, which was why they voted with their feet
People go to inter-county matches when they know something is at stake, and for the occasion.

People come from far and wide to Ulster finals and Munster hurling finals. They are magical occasions which give a rhythm and a hope to Irish life.

When you go to an Ulster final, you go because i) something important is at stake in a sporting sense, and ii) because you're living a tradition that has been built up over a century. You go for the traffic jams, for the dead heat of mid-summer, taking in the atmosphere in the Diamond, then the walk down Fermanagh Street, a couple of pre-match pints in some sweatbox of a pub, the smell of the burger and chip vans, the walk up the hill to the ground, the cauldron atmosphere of the arena itself, and the excitement and teeming humanity of the whole thing.

It's the same with Munster hurling finals or Kerry v Cork in Killarney, if Cork are any good. In Connacht people rightly bemoan the loss of Tuam as a major venue because it was a Mecca, especially when Galway played Mayo.

You can't buy these occasions and these traditions, and once you rip them up, they're gone forever, replaced by a rationalised, utilitarian, soulless pig of a championship.
Ah would you quit you’re giving me goosebumps there talking abiut Ulster final days. (As an Armagh man I can barely remember what it’s like to get to one ffs)
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 11:40:52 AM
You’re not even a member of a club Sid.

Nor have you been to Clones. Or well maybe you have once. But you have not been there among 300 for an Ulster minor league game, or among 2,000 for an Ulster u21 final, or among 5,000 for a national league game, or among 25,000 for an ulster final replay in conditions so poor that the far end of the field cannot be seen.

Your take on Gaelic Games is largely a byproduct of misty eyed nostalgia narratives from the likes of Tom Humphrey. You clearly enjoy that type of writing, but it is not reality.

5-figure crowds will sometimes turn up for McKenna Cup matches. And sometimes it’s less than 1,000 people. Its the same competition, played at the same time, in the same appalling conditions, each year. Its attendances are not affected by media, by sponsorship, by team selections. It’s all about the mood in the counties competing.

And the same principle applies to every intercounty match, apart from the all Ireland final.

You are not even a member of the association for crying out loud.

So do us all of favour and stop pontificating.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 04, 2021, 11:52:46 AM
You’re not even a member of a club Sid.

Nor have you been to Clones. Or well maybe you have once. But you have not been there among 300 for an Ulster minor league game, or among 2,000 for an Ulster u21 final, or among 5,000 for a national league game, or among 25,000 for an ulster final replay in conditions so poor that the far end of the field cannot be seen.

Your take on Gaelic Games is largely a byproduct of misty eyed nostalgia narratives from the likes of Tom Humphrey. You clearly enjoy that type of writing, but it is not reality.

5-figure crowds will sometimes turn up for McKenna Cup matches. And sometimes it’s less than 1,000 people. Its the same competition, played at the same time, in the same appalling conditions, each year. Its attendances are not affected by media, by sponsorship, by team selections. It’s all about the mood in the counties competing.

And the same principle applies to every intercounty match, apart from the all Ireland final.

You are not even a member of the association for crying out loud.

So do us all of favour and stop pontificating.
I do love it when somebody has absolutely nothing of substance to say yet still insists on saying something.

Empty vessels and all that.


Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 12:02:47 PM
Honest question. Have you ever been to an Ulster final?

Simple yes or no will do.

When you clarify that it’s a no, read back your last 7-8 posts with an open a mind as you can.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 04, 2021, 12:18:38 PM
The super 8’s weren’t well attended. It’s like attending 3 provincial finals in 3 weeks. Lots of people can’t afford it. That’s what it comes down to.

Not only that , but teams might already have won their province or come the scenic route to get  there. So that’s maybe 7 or 8 big games in 9-10 weeks. That’s considerable cost to ordinary working folk

The super 8’s were a money racket , and  fans knew it, which was why they voted with their feet
People go to inter-county matches when they know something is at stake, and for the occasion.

People come from far and wide to Ulster finals and Munster hurling finals. They are magical occasions which give a rhythm and a hope to Irish life.

When you go to an Ulster final, you go because i) something important is at stake in a sporting sense, and ii) because you're living a tradition that has been built up over a century. You go for the traffic jams, for the dead heat of mid-summer, taking in the atmosphere in the Diamond, then the walk down Fermanagh Street, a couple of pre-match pints in some sweatbox of a pub, the smell of the burger and chip vans, the walk up the hill to the ground, the cauldron atmosphere of the arena itself, and the excitement and teeming humanity of the whole thing.

It's the same with Munster hurling finals or Kerry v Cork in Killarney, if Cork are any good. In Connacht people rightly bemoan the loss of Tuam as a major venue because it was a Mecca, especially when Galway played Mayo.

You can't buy these occasions and these traditions, and once you rip them up, they're gone forever, replaced by a rationalised, utilitarian, soulless pig of a championship.
Ah would you quit you’re giving me goosebumps there talking abiut Ulster final days. (As an Armagh man I can barely remember what it’s like to get to one ffs)
And that's what it's about. The promise or the hope of special days. Jim McGuinness wrote very well about this a couple of weeks back.

These days are special because they matter, and they matter because they are rare. And you can't fake them, you can't multiply their frequency in an artificial way like Ger Gilroy and other sports media hacks think you can do. That way they cease to exist and more becomes less.

Proposal B is a fundamental throwing out of what the GAA competitions are and have always been about. They have always been about "on the day", at every level. And the glory of the championships is in their imperfections, that they aren't a rationalised, mathematically perfect yet soulless beast borrowed from professional sports. They take account of regional peculiarities, at every level, at provincial level, at club level. Their imperfections are a feature, not a bug. You can't turn the GAA into the AFL, which is what Proposal B aims to do. Aussie Rules has already had enough of a negative influence on Gaelic football without borrowing its competition format - and without the inherent redistribution mechanisms that sport has.

Leagues can be fun, but they're essentially ballast.







Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 04, 2021, 12:38:58 PM
Honest question. Have you ever been to an Ulster final?

Simple yes or no will do.

When you clarify that it’s a no, read back your last 7-8 posts with an open a mind as you can.
I've been to six of them - four of them in Clones (1993, 1994, 1995, 2017) plus a couple of the ones in Croke Park (although I don't really count those as proper Ulster finals) and have been up to Clones around 12 or 13 times to various matches over the years. For one of them, 1994, myself and my father went up without tickets and bought two in the Diamond from lads who had travelled up from West Limerick. Why do you think those lads had travelled all the way up from West Limerick? Because the Ulster final is a unique Irish ritual and occasion that people want to experience. They travelled up for the same reason I've been to Killarney and Thurles and Limerick and Cork for provincial finals I had no personal county involvement in.

Under Proposal B, Sunday March 13th looks a likely date for the "Ulster final" next year. I've been to Clones for a match on Sunday March 13th, when Dublin played there in the league in 2011. I've been there for Division 2 league football in the depths of February. Clones is just a wee bit different at that time of the year than it is for an Ulster final in July. But if you like your McKenna, sorry, Ulster finals played in what is still winter, I'm sure it'll be just the same occasion as it is in high summer. No difference at all.

Again, you're entitled to your opinion that 130 years of tradition is something that should be dispensed with overnight. Your opinion is wrong.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 01:30:22 PM
General piece of advice: more you attempt to portray yourself as a protector of Irish culture, the more confused and erratic you will become.

The (existence of provincial councils and) format of the provincial championships grew out of a need to minimise travelling distances. Then exploded in tandem with train travel (hence, Clones).

A tradition born out of necessity, and festered out of convenience, should not forcibly set the rules of today. If the Association hadn’t adapted to circumstances and opportunity throughout its formative and fledgling years, it would never have prospered. Demanding we now maintain competition formats that are are imbalanced and illogical, because that’s what we did 100 years ago, is wrong.

This isn’t to deny the adrenaline jolt one can feel on provincial finals day. If you’ve got the time to kill, there is something wonderful about the population of a small provincial town increasing by 2000% for a day.

But you know what? I do believe, hand on heart, that much of that magic would spread throughout the proposed league. Not to every game. Not a lot for some games.

But I have been witness to enough electric evenings in Pairc Esler for national league games, to know that it’s not actually Clones that makes the Ulster final a special day. Nor is it the competition or the trophy. It definitely nothing to do with 130 years of history. Instead, It’s the full house, and the sense of anticipation for two evenly matched teams giving their absolute all to win a match.

With (mostly) smaller venues, and half of the crowd having little or no distance to travel, I really do believe the league will produce that in spades.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 04, 2021, 01:49:24 PM
Sid would remind you of a Yank bemoaning the lack of thatched houses!
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: armaghniac on October 04, 2021, 02:19:17 PM
With (mostly) smaller venues, and half of the crowd having little or no distance to travel, I really do believe the league will produce that in spades.

Mostly smaller venues just mean that less people are going. In the Provincial championships people were mostly within 2 hours of the game and crowds had a lot of people from each side,  in the league they could be 5 or 6 hours away and crowds are one sided.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 04, 2021, 04:54:04 PM
If the provincial championships aren’t linked to the AI series, then they basically become a meaningless competition.

So....

Do fans in Munster/Leinster/Connacht  want their respective championship keeping, as a competition leading to further progression in the AI series?

Or do you want rid of it?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 04, 2021, 05:47:14 PM
If they are nothing when standing alone are they worth having at all?
Never mind greasy Clones chips...question is are these proposals better for the County game or not?
The old system of playing 10 games in the 1st 13 weeks of the year in sh1t and muck followed by as few as 2 games for a load of teams somewhere in the 2nd 13 weeks hasn't a lot to recommend it.
But are proposals A or B an improvement?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 04, 2021, 06:25:01 PM
With (mostly) smaller venues, and half of the crowd having little or no distance to travel, I really do believe the league will produce that in spades.

Mostly smaller venues just mean that less people are going. In the Provincial championships people were mostly within 2 hours of the game and crowds had a lot of people from each side,  in the league they could be 5 or 6 hours away and crowds are one sided.
Distance is still very much a factor in people going to or not going to games.

As is tradition, some counties just don't have any tradition of travelling support.

How many Kerry supporters travelled to Clones for that crunch championship tie against Monaghan?

How many even travel to Dublin for All-Ireland quarter-finals or semi-finals?

Some counties don't even have much of a tradition of home support.

When Cork played Dublin in Pairc Ui Chaoimh in the 1999 NFL final, how many attended it?

9,000, a majority of whom travelled from Dublin.

I'd wager I've attended more NFL matches in Cork than most Cork football "supporters", and I've never lived in or near Cork.

The one match which always brings Cork supporters out in numbers is against Kerry in Killarney.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 04, 2021, 06:29:09 PM
If they are nothing when standing alone are they worth having at all?
If you removed American football's divisional championships from the NFL and played them as stand alone pre-season competitions, do you think they'd have the same worth?

Do you think the NFL are considering doing away with the divisional championships?

Not on your life.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 04, 2021, 06:46:17 PM
General piece of advice: more you attempt to portray yourself as a protector of Irish culture, the more confused and erratic you will become.

The (existence of provincial councils and) format of the provincial championships grew out of a need to minimise travelling distances. Then exploded in tandem with train travel (hence, Clones).

A tradition born out of necessity, and festered out of convenience, should not forcibly set the rules of today. If the Association hadn’t adapted to circumstances and opportunity throughout its formative and fledgling years, it would never have prospered. Demanding we now maintain competition formats that are are imbalanced and illogical, because that’s what we did 100 years ago, is wrong.

This isn’t to deny the adrenaline jolt one can feel on provincial finals day. If you’ve got the time to kill, there is something wonderful about the population of a small provincial town increasing by 2000% for a day.

But you know what? I do believe, hand on heart, that much of that magic would spread throughout the proposed league. Not to every game. Not a lot for some games.

But I have been witness to enough electric evenings in Pairc Esler for national league games, to know that it’s not actually Clones that makes the Ulster final a special day. Nor is it the competition or the trophy. It definitely nothing to do with 130 years of history. Instead, It’s the full house, and the sense of anticipation for two evenly matched teams giving their absolute all to win a match.

With (mostly) smaller venues, and half of the crowd having little or no distance to travel, I really do believe the league will produce that in spades.

So you're now telling us that the provincial finals are alright "if you've got a bit of time to kill", but that the proposed new league as championship format would be "magical"?

Have you got any more of this marketing guff?

Can you give me an example of any "magical" atmospheres at NFL Division 3 or 4 matches, ever?

I sure can't think of any.

In 34 years of going to NFL matches I can think of precious few "magical" atmospheres at any NFL round robin matches, ever.

Monaghan and Kerry gave it their all that day in Clones. So why did only 17k turn up?

Why did a combined 30k only turn up when Kildare, Monaghan, Kerry and Galway kicked off the Super 8s in 2018?

Why did a combined 30k only turn up when Dublin, Cork, Roscommon and Tyrone kicked off the Super 8s in 2019?

And why does the Ulster final always sell out?



Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 04, 2021, 08:00:02 PM
It doesn’t always sell out.

I’m not going to go as far as magical but I’ve witnessed dozens of games with superb atmospheres in Newry. Right up that season 6 years ago when we stank division one out, these were nearly always better than championship matches.

But most of all you’re so busy reflecting on the sunny days of your youth, it means you’re struggling to keep up. In the new format the league stages will be the championship. It won’t be a warm up competition for any county, regardless of their goals. Reflecting on what went before, in an attempt to draw parallels with what is coming, is pointless. Every game is championship. The players will respond, and there will be full houses up and down the country.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Armagh18 on October 04, 2021, 09:14:03 PM
It doesn’t always sell out.

I’m not going to go as far as magical but I’ve witnessed dozens of games with superb atmospheres in Newry. Right up that season 6 years ago when we stank division one out, these were nearly always better than championship matches.

But most of all you’re so busy reflecting on the sunny days of your youth, it means you’re struggling to keep up. In the new format the league stages will be the championship. It won’t be a warm up competition for any county, regardless of their goals. Reflecting on what went before, in an attempt to draw parallels with what is coming, is pointless. Every game is championship. The players will respond, and there will be full houses up and down the country.
”Championship” in league format isn’t championship
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 04, 2021, 10:58:37 PM
It doesn’t always sell out.

I’m not going to go as far as magical but I’ve witnessed dozens of games with superb atmospheres in Newry. Right up that season 6 years ago when we stank division one out, these were nearly always better than championship matches.

But most of all you’re so busy reflecting on the sunny days of your youth, it means you’re struggling to keep up. In the new format the league stages will be the championship. It won’t be a warm up competition for any county, regardless of their goals. Reflecting on what went before, in an attempt to draw parallels with what is coming, is pointless. Every game is championship. The players will respond, and there will be full houses up and down the country.
When was the last time the Ulster final didn't sell out in Clones? When was the last time it didn't attract over 90% capacity, ie. as good as a sell out for atmosphere?

Your bit about "reflecting on the sunny days of your youth" is just trolling. The Ulster championship and especially the Ulster final remain superb spectacles. Even the spectatorless Covid final of last year was memorable. It meant everything to Cavan, even if Cavan people couldn't be there.

A Division 3 league title or a Tommy Murphy Cup will never do that.

We've already had league as championship, it was called the Super 8s. It was, in general, a rubbish spectacle and only served the strong counties. More games for the strong against the strong. And the rug is pulled up further.

And even at that, four matches of 24 were in any way memorable - Monaghan v Kerry 2018, Donegal v Tyrone 2018, Donegal v Kerry 2019 and Mayo v Donegal 2019. What the Super 8s mainly did was produce a ton of thoroughly forgettable football.






Title: Re: Congress
Post by: tiempo on October 05, 2021, 12:03:35 PM
Ulster sez NO

Top fella Brian, unenviable position to be in tbh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO_Kbl6qAFg
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 05, 2021, 09:40:39 PM
Ulster sez NO

Top fella Brian, unenviable position to be in tbh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO_Kbl6qAFg
Good contribution by Brian McAvoy there. He didn't take any shit.

The Off the Ball lads sound like they're advertising Eircom shares back in the day. All buzzwords and slogans and PR speak.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: rodney trotter on October 05, 2021, 10:28:27 PM
A lot of opposition to restructuring the Provinces to 8 which would be understandable. But Leinster Hurling has Galway and Antrim.  Antrim isn't near Leinster, but had to move as too strong.

They say the Provincial Championship is dead, so why not try and revive with 4 provinces of 8. Longford and Westmeath into Connacht should be explored or Laois into Munster.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 05, 2021, 10:54:36 PM
A lot of opposition to restructuring the Provinces to 8 which would be understandable. But Leinster Hurling has Galway and Antrim.  Antrim isn't near Leinster, but had to move as too strong.

They say the Provincial Championship is dead, so why not try and revive with 4 provinces of 8. Longford and Westmeath into Connacht should be explored or Laois into Munster.
Brian McAvoy said something on that podcast in relation to Proposal A which I hadn't heard before.

Instead of say, Fermanagh and Longford being arbitrarily assigned to Connacht or Wexford and Carlow to Munster, there would be play offs based on League placings each year to see which counties would move province.

So, for argument's sake, based on 2021 League placings, Cavan and Antrim would have played in an effective Ulster Championship tie, with the winner qualifying for one of two Ulster round robin groups, and the loser going into a Connacht round robin group.

You'd have three play-off ties between Leinster teams with the winners remaining in the Leinster championship and two of the losers going into Munster and one to Connacht.

So each county would get a chance to play for their own provincial championship.

As an example, the Connacht round robin groups might end up looking like this:

Group A
Mayo
Roscommon
London
Longford

Group B
Galway
Sligo
Leitrim
Cavan

with the winners meeting in the Connacht final.

It's not perfect but it's more palatable than Proposal B.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: armaghniac on October 06, 2021, 12:29:28 AM
Cavan or Fermanagh are contiguous to Connacht, as is Donegal to some extent. Putting Antrim in Connacht would seem cruel.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 06, 2021, 12:48:10 AM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/1005/1250939-sweeney-in-favour-of-a-secondary-football-competition/
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 06, 2021, 06:07:39 AM
will provincial championships have finals if it goes to a league format would Munster have like the first two teams play in the final or not if not then we may never seen provincial finals for Munster and connaght again.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 06, 2021, 06:12:01 AM
See it wasn’t a quarter final either, of which there’s 4. It was a Super 8 match, of which there’s 12.

And it was mid table in terms of attendance figures for a super 8 match, nowhere near the bottom.


according to the gaa the super 8s were officially called the all ireland  quarter final group stage but i know what you mean.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 06, 2021, 06:28:47 AM
They need to ditch provincials in huring aswell well not linked to all ireland
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 06, 2021, 06:39:10 AM
Do some say the ulster final kind of lots its magic more and more over the years since they brought in the backdoor.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 06, 2021, 08:49:37 AM
if proposal b happens then i think the should have a neutral weekend  so then each team will  have 3 home 3 away games and  a neutral but the GAA Council probably do not look at this forum so that probably wont happen.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 06, 2021, 08:51:18 AM
Tyrone v Dublin in castlebar on a summer  saturday evening  could be great.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: An Watcher on October 06, 2021, 10:45:31 AM
I honestly think that all these systems n things could just be replaced with an open draw.  The numbers are close to perfect, 32/33 or whatever.  Possibly play the provincial championships before, after or during the all ireland series.  Let the dublins, kerrys and tyrones of the world play weakened teams in the provincial if need be.  The lesser teams would have their shit at all ireland glory and a shot at the provincial to boot.  They might have a better chance of provincial glory with weakened big teams
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 06, 2021, 11:02:19 AM
I honestly think that all these systems n things could just be replaced with an open draw.  The numbers are close to perfect, 32/33 or whatever.  Possibly play the provincial championships before, after or during the all ireland series.  Let the dublins, kerrys and tyrones of the world play weakened teams in the provincial if need be.  The lesser teams would have their shit at all ireland glory and a shot at the provincial to boot.  They might have a better chance of provincial glory with weakened big teams

same but they will never do open draw they had a chance the last two seasons as a novelty and they did not do it.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: tiempo on October 06, 2021, 11:03:12 AM
Proposal B is as close as it gets to perfect. The Provincial champs should be guaranteed a place in the last 16, leaving 12 places up for grabs via the league with reps coming from all 4 divisions in the race for Sam, while the remaining 16 play for the Tailteann Cup. Should be renamed to something more personable e.g. Paidi O'Se or Dermot Early Cup. The final also has to be played as a double header with the Sam Maguire final, anything less and it'll be perceived as a token gesture.

Bastardising the Ulster champ to bulk the Connacht champ, no thanks, the format for arriving at who goes to Connacht and subsequent group stage in Connacht is frankly insane.

Tyrone v Dublin in Castlebar, waste of time.

Super 8s, too elitist.

I fully understand the Ulster CEO's position, he has a fight on his hands to preserve 100+ years of history and tradition and the only provincial champ left worth a fvck, he doesn't want it to go down on his watch. Economics also play a huge part, the Ulster champ is the major funding stream for the Ulster council and the jewel in their crown, without it they become irrelevant... but its staying.

As for it becoming a pre-season comp played in the muck and shit. You seen how serious GAA people like Mickey Harte treated the McKenna Cup, with respect, compared to that eejit in Donegal who wouldn't field a team cus of some third level games the same weekend. No-one in Ulster would denigrate the Ulster champ. As for the timing and weather, tough shit, club players have to make do with Sept-Nov to play championship knockout.

There will be some serious strokes being pulled all over the place to get both these proposals rejected, it won't be pretty behind the scenes, but if the last President election is anything to go by anything is possible.

If proposal B hits the pan now there will be some serious disenfranchised county players and management throughout the country and it'll take another 5 years to get anyway close to this kind of meaningful change.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 06, 2021, 11:04:11 AM
i wouldn't even mind them bringing in an open draw tournament separate from the all ireland but they be no room in calendar
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 06, 2021, 11:09:09 AM

As for it becoming a pre-season comp played in the muck and shit. You seen how serious GAA people like Mickey Harte treated the McKenna Cup, with respect, compared to that eejit in Donegal who wouldn't field a team cus of some third level games the same weekend. No-one in Ulster would denigrate the Ulster champ.
Of course they would.

Sure teams routinely disrespected the knockout stages of the NFL. I've been at NFL semi-finals which had all the intensity of the old Goal post-All-Ireland charity match.

And the NFL is a national title.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: tiempo on October 06, 2021, 11:17:56 AM

As for it becoming a pre-season comp played in the muck and shit. You seen how serious GAA people like Mickey Harte treated the McKenna Cup, with respect, compared to that eejit in Donegal who wouldn't field a team cus of some third level games the same weekend. No-one in Ulster would denigrate the Ulster champ.
Of course they would.

Sure teams routinely disrespected the knockout stages of the NFL. I've been at NFL semi-finals which had all the intensity of the old Goal post-All-Ireland charity match.

And the NFL is a national title.

Nice hyperbole.

A provincial knockout title linked to the All-Ireland won against your local rivals is worth more than a league title which doesn't feed into the championship.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 06, 2021, 11:44:48 AM
you still got provincial club championships linked to all ireland club so you can get your provincial fix that way club provincials probably more competitive than county anyway.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 06, 2021, 11:52:50 AM

As for it becoming a pre-season comp played in the muck and shit. You seen how serious GAA people like Mickey Harte treated the McKenna Cup, with respect, compared to that eejit in Donegal who wouldn't field a team cus of some third level games the same weekend. No-one in Ulster would denigrate the Ulster champ.
Of course they would.

Sure teams routinely disrespected the knockout stages of the NFL. I've been at NFL semi-finals which had all the intensity of the old Goal post-All-Ireland charity match.

And the NFL is a national title.

Nice hyperbole.

A provincial knockout title linked to the All-Ireland won against your local rivals is worth more than a league title which doesn't feed into the championship.
Under Proposal B the "Ulster Championship" becomes the McKenna Cup.

It is not linked to the championship.

It is therefore meaningless.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: tiempo on October 06, 2021, 12:02:03 PM
Worked example of 2 tier system based on 2019, last fully completed league season

Winners of Tailteann guaranteed entry to Sam the following year, everyone else based on that seasons provincial and league performance
Open draw last 16 for Sam, provincial winners at opposite ends of the draw and guaranteed home draw in first game
D4, D3, D2 winners guaranteed home draw
Tailteann straight open draw round last 16 and QF. SF neutral, Final on AIF day at Croke.

A straight up  meritocracy

Sam Maguire

1.   Roscommon (Provincial)
2.   Dublin (Provincial)
3.   Kerry (Provincial)
4.   Cavan (Donegal)
5.   Derry (D4 winners)
6.   Westmeath (D3 winners)
7.   Mayo (D1 second place)
8.   Tyrone (D1 third place)
9.   Galway (D1 fifth place)
10.   Monaghan (D1 sixth place)
11.   Meath (D2 first place)
12.   Fermanagh (D2 third place)
13.   Kildare (D2 fourth place)
14.   Armagh (D2 fifth place)
15.   Clare (D2 sixth place)
16.   Laois (D3 second place)

Tailteann

1.   Cavan (relegated D1)
2.   Cork (relegated D2)
3.   Tipperary (relegated D2)
4.   Down
5.   Louth
6.   Longford
7.   Offaly
8.   Carlow
9.   Sligo
10.   Leitrim
11.   Antrim
12.   Waterford
13.   Wexford
14.   Wicklow
15.   Limerick
16.   London

Tailteann; positions 4-16 as per league
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 06, 2021, 12:04:05 PM

As for it becoming a pre-season comp played in the muck and shit. You seen how serious GAA people like Mickey Harte treated the McKenna Cup, with respect, compared to that eejit in Donegal who wouldn't field a team cus of some third level games the same weekend. No-one in Ulster would denigrate the Ulster champ.
Of course they would.

Sure teams routinely disrespected the knockout stages of the NFL. I've been at NFL semi-finals which had all the intensity of the old Goal post-All-Ireland charity match.

And the NFL is a national title.

Nice hyperbole.

A provincial knockout title linked to the All-Ireland won against your local rivals is worth more than a league title which doesn't feed into the championship.
Under Proposal B the "Ulster Championship" becomes the McKenna Cup.

It is not linked to the championship.

It is therefore meaningless.

The Leinster, Munster and Connaght championships are meaningless for the vast majority of the counties, so should they be forced to stick with the current structure to preserve the Ulster championship?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: tiempo on October 06, 2021, 12:13:22 PM
Made a balls of that worked example but you get the point
Also overseas county home draw in first knockout game
Meritocracy
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: tiempo on October 06, 2021, 12:32:12 PM

As for it becoming a pre-season comp played in the muck and shit. You seen how serious GAA people like Mickey Harte treated the McKenna Cup, with respect, compared to that eejit in Donegal who wouldn't field a team cus of some third level games the same weekend. No-one in Ulster would denigrate the Ulster champ.
Of course they would.

Sure teams routinely disrespected the knockout stages of the NFL. I've been at NFL semi-finals which had all the intensity of the old Goal post-All-Ireland charity match.

And the NFL is a national title.

Nice hyperbole.

A provincial knockout title linked to the All-Ireland won against your local rivals is worth more than a league title which doesn't feed into the championship.
Under Proposal B the "Ulster Championship" becomes the McKenna Cup.

It is not linked to the championship.

It is therefore meaningless.

The Leinster, Munster and Connaght championships are meaningless for the vast majority of the counties, so should they be forced to stick with the current structure to preserve the Ulster championship?

Didn't look too meaningless to  Tipp 2020 and Roscommon 2019

The GAA created Frankenstein in Dublin reducing the Leinster champ to a shambles, they need to own it, others shouldn't have to make changes to cover that up
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 06, 2021, 12:45:42 PM

As for it becoming a pre-season comp played in the muck and shit. You seen how serious GAA people like Mickey Harte treated the McKenna Cup, with respect, compared to that eejit in Donegal who wouldn't field a team cus of some third level games the same weekend. No-one in Ulster would denigrate the Ulster champ.
Of course they would.

Sure teams routinely disrespected the knockout stages of the NFL. I've been at NFL semi-finals which had all the intensity of the old Goal post-All-Ireland charity match.

And the NFL is a national title.

Nice hyperbole.

A provincial knockout title linked to the All-Ireland won against your local rivals is worth more than a league title which doesn't feed into the championship.
Under Proposal B the "Ulster Championship" becomes the McKenna Cup.

It is not linked to the championship.

It is therefore meaningless.

The Leinster, Munster and Connaght championships are meaningless for the vast majority of the counties, so should they be forced to stick with the current structure to preserve the Ulster championship?

Didn't look too meaningless to  Tipp 2020 and Roscommon 2019

The GAA created Frankenstein in Dublin reducing the Leinster champ to a shambles, they need to own it, others shouldn't have to make changes to cover that up

First win in 80 odd years for Tipp. First time in two decades it wasn't Kerry or Cork to win Munster. If anything this proves things have to change. Tipp can still win a Munster title under option B.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 06, 2021, 12:56:36 PM
What has to change is the competitiveness.

Proposal B addresses the symptoms, not the cause of the problem.

And even at that, it will only make the symptoms worse.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 06, 2021, 01:12:30 PM
Any chance you'd tell us your solutions Einstein?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Armagh18 on October 06, 2021, 01:18:04 PM
I honestly think that all these systems n things could just be replaced with an open draw.  The numbers are close to perfect, 32/33 or whatever.  Possibly play the provincial championships before, after or during the all ireland series.  Let the dublins, kerrys and tyrones of the world play weakened teams in the provincial if need be.  The lesser teams would have their shit at all ireland glory and a shot at the provincial to boot.  They might have a better chance of provincial glory with weakened big teams
Would be brilliant but never gonna happen.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Armagh18 on October 06, 2021, 01:21:46 PM
you still got provincial club championships linked to all ireland club so you can get your provincial fix that way club provincials probably more competitive than county anyway.
Are you for real
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 06, 2021, 02:01:08 PM
Any chance you'd tell us your solutions Einstein?
I've put forward several different proposals in minute detail on various previous threads.

Go and find them, Syf.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 06, 2021, 02:54:17 PM

As for it becoming a pre-season comp played in the muck and shit. You seen how serious GAA people like Mickey Harte treated the McKenna Cup, with respect, compared to that eejit in Donegal who wouldn't field a team cus of some third level games the same weekend. No-one in Ulster would denigrate the Ulster champ.
Of course they would.

Sure teams routinely disrespected the knockout stages of the NFL. I've been at NFL semi-finals which had all the intensity of the old Goal post-All-Ireland charity match.

And the NFL is a national title.

Nice hyperbole.

A provincial knockout title linked to the All-Ireland won against your local rivals is worth more than a league title which doesn't feed into the championship.
Under Proposal B the "Ulster Championship" becomes the McKenna Cup.

It is not linked to the championship.

It is therefore meaningless.

The Leinster, Munster and Connaght championships are meaningless for the vast majority of the counties, so should they be forced to stick with the current structure to preserve the Ulster championship?

Didn't look too meaningless to  Tipp 2020 and Roscommon 2019

The GAA created Frankenstein in Dublin reducing the Leinster champ to a shambles, they need to own it, others shouldn't have to make changes to cover that up

Yip.  Offaly Westmeath Kildare Laois Meath all won Leinsters within  a 8 year period (Wexford we’re in the mix too) before the Dublin funding really kicked in.  By 2004, the Leinster championship was never in a better place with a lot of counties able to compete.  But then they turned it into a shit show,  and left a third of the total counties in the country thinking, “what’s the point”?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Armagh18 on October 06, 2021, 04:14:59 PM
League championship isn’t championship.

Another thing for me is that the winners of Ulster deserve to be further on in the All Ireland than the winners of any other province.

2 options for me would be run the provincials off separately from the all ireland and then do a 32 county straight knockout open draw- could see a middling team get a decent run and get to a semi final with a bit of luck. Could also see a big hitter getting put out early. 16 First round losers into the B All Ireland or whatever it’s going to be called, again straight knockout, play as many double headers as possible and play the final before the senior one.

Other option would be keep the qualifier system but structure it that the winners of Leinster, Connacht and Munster have to face 3 teams that came through the qualifiers.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 06, 2021, 04:28:55 PM
FFS!!!
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Tres Bien on October 06, 2021, 04:44:08 PM
League championship isn’t championship.

Another thing for me is that the winners of Ulster deserve to be further on in the All Ireland than the winners of any other province.

2 options for me would be run the provincials off separately from the all ireland and then do a 32 county straight knockout open draw- could see a middling team get a decent run and get to a semi final with a bit of luck. Could also see a big hitter getting put out early. 16 First round losers into the B All Ireland or whatever it’s going to be called, again straight knockout, play as many double headers as possible and play the final before the senior one.

Other option would be keep the qualifier system but structure it that the winners of Leinster, Connacht and Munster have to face 3 teams that came through the qualifiers.

Would agree with this.

My own proposal would be to have the Championship as it was pre Super 8s and just stop teams from the same province being drawn against each other until the latest round possible.

The qualifier system was brought in to give teams a second chance and it benefitted Ulster teams from the tough draw they had in the provincial system but the qualifier system never gave redress for provincial differences.

Imagine next year we had a QF draw of Tyrone v Armagh and Donegal v Monaghan, two of those teams would be out into the 1st round of the qualifiers where they could draw each other. This should never have been allowed to happen.

If you give redress to the lopsidedness of the provincial system it would go someway toward solving the problem.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: themac_23 on October 06, 2021, 06:59:21 PM
Proposal B is prob the closest thing were gonna get to being right at the minute in fairness though we need to get it in then we can start tweaking it. think ive said on here before the easiest solution is

play provincial tournaments before the league. leagues div 3 and 4 play the intermediate championship with the winner getting a place in senior all Ireland following year along with div 3 winner. make div 1 and 2 positions for home advantage in their last 16 ties, so top 4 in div 1 and 2 go into the last 16 draw with home advantage and they get a draw against the bottom 4 from the other division.

make part of the prize for the intermediate winners a real good holiday, for example they play the all stars in Dubai or the likes of that.

personally, id much rather watch Antrim in a quarter final of a cup we have a chance of competing in than playing a team we get a nice pat on the head against and told ah well done it was competitive for 40 mins 
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: rodney trotter on October 06, 2021, 11:43:07 PM
Super 8s to be ditched regardless of the outcome https://www.thesun.ie/sport/gaa-football/7710667/gaa-championship-structure-congress-super-8s/

A poor enough experiment, dead rubber games at the business end of Championship didn't look good.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: yellowcard on October 06, 2021, 11:55:11 PM
Super 8s to be ditched regardless of the outcome https://www.thesun.ie/sport/gaa-football/7710667/gaa-championship-structure-congress-super-8s/

A poor enough experiment, dead rubber games at the business end of Championship didn't look good.

That’s no harm at all, the advent of Super 8s was on its way to increasing the gap between the elite few and the rest. Thankfully that has been halted by the reversion back to knock out championship over the last 2 seasons.

The best proposal I have seen yet is one which is not on the table and was the one put forward by Jim McGuinness. Most people agree that Plan A is a non runner but I’m not entirely convinced by plan B either.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 07, 2021, 12:11:05 AM
Super 8s to be ditched regardless of the outcome https://www.thesun.ie/sport/gaa-football/7710667/gaa-championship-structure-congress-super-8s/

A poor enough experiment, dead rubber games at the business end of Championship didn't look good.

Was a lot of politics in play for the Super Duper 8 to get voted in to begin with.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 07, 2021, 09:03:53 AM
Does anyone know if we will have league finals still with proposal b if thats the case then the division 3 and 4 finals are effectively an Ireland qualifier
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 07, 2021, 09:19:02 AM
https://www.thesun.ie/sport/gaa-football/7714551/gaa-leadership-football-championship-vote-special-congress/

Tomás Ó Riain has maintained a low public profile in general since he got the ÁS job.
Might be no harm as his predecessor was never out of the Media.
The Review Committee who formulated the 2 proposals have been pretty silent too.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Tres Bien on October 07, 2021, 10:54:35 AM
The pre Super 8 was vastly superior to the Super 8s.

A bit of mild tweaking is what's needed. I think divisional status should count toward your championship status.

If a Div 3/4 team win their province then they go into senior champ. Otherwise they are in the Tailteann.
Provincial winners straight through to QFs.
Everyone out before then are paired off by their league ranking.

Provincial Championship played more or less as it has been in the backdoor system.

Go on the basis on 2020 League and Provincials.

Ulster - Cavan
Munster - Tipp
Leinster - Dublin
Connacht - Mayo

Based on league rankings the following teams take part in All Ireland senior:

1. Kerry
2. Galway
3. Tyrone
4. Donegal
5. Monaghan
6. Meath
7. Roscommon
8. Armagh
9. Kildare
10. Westmeath
11. Laois
12. Clare

Teams ranked 5-12 will face off in R1 based on seedings

Monaghan v Clare
Meath v Laois
Roscommon v Westmeath
Armagh v Kildare

Round 2 will see

Kerry v R1 winner
Galway v R1 winner
Tyrone v R1 winner
Donegal v R1 winner

QF
Cavan v R1 winner
Tipp v R1 winner
Dublin v R1 winner
Mayo v R1 winner

I don't like the idea that say the Div 2 winner is ranked above the bottom placed Div 1 team. As far as I see it that team played Div 1 football that year so deserves credit for playing at a higher level.

Either way if you finish within the top 12 teams in the league system you are guaranteed a senior championship place.

The same system would work for the intermediate championship.

In R2 of the draw which would be open I think teams from the same province should not be allowed to be drawn against each other if possible.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: tiempo on October 07, 2021, 10:56:45 AM
The pre Super 8 was vastly superior to the Super 8s.

A bit of mild tweaking is what's needed. I think divisional status should count toward your championship status.

If a Div 3/4 team win their province then they go into senior champ. Otherwise they are in the Tailteann.
Provincial winners straight through to QFs.
Everyone out before then are paired off by their league ranking.

Provincial Championship played more or less as it has been in the backdoor system.

Go on the basis on 2020 League and Provincials.

Ulster - Cavan
Munster - Tipp
Leinster - Dublin
Connacht - Mayo

Based on league rankings the following teams take part in All Ireland senior:

1. Kerry
2. Galway
3. Tyrone
4. Donegal
5. Monaghan
6. Meath
7. Roscommon
8. Armagh
9. Kildare
10. Westmeath
11. Laois
12. Clare

Teams ranked 5-12 will face off in R1 based on seedings

Monaghan v Clare
Meath v Laois
Roscommon v Westmeath
Armagh v Kildare

Round 2 will see

Kerry v R1 winner
Galway v R1 winner
Tyrone v R1 winner
Donegal v R1 winner

QF
Cavan v R1 winner
Tipp v R1 winner
Dublin v R1 winner
Mayo v R1 winner

I don't like the idea that say the Div 2 winner is ranked above the bottom placed Div 1 team. As far as I see it that team played Div 1 football that year so deserves credit for playing at a higher level.

Either way if you finish within the top 12 teams in the league system you are guaranteed a senior championship place.

The same system would work for the intermediate championship.

In R2 of the draw which would be open I think teams from the same province should not be allowed to be drawn against each other if possible.

Wish Angelo was here to see this, would bring a tear to a glass eye  :'(
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Louther on October 07, 2021, 11:52:06 AM
I can’t think of any other team sports that have such eleborate hybrid structures or that try to invent them and have arrived at such a place as the current GAA championship is. It’s not knockout but it is with a back door, then goes into a league where the previous knocked out teams could come back and then it goes to a knockout again. Plus adding a second competition in now that you enter based on standing in another competition or how you did last year. It’s mind boggling what we currently have.

Plan B tidys lot of this up. Still lot of cross over and permutations. I’d genuinely go with Div1 and Div2 play senior championship into a knockout. Any provincial winners outside of those play off with bottom team(s) for a place in knock out. 1st round seeded and then open draw to spice it up. Seeded teams get home advantage round 1.

Failing that play championship like this year, no back door or super 8s. Put the pressure on the big teams with no fall back position. We seen obsessed with making it rules that every team must have a decent chance. They can’t. Dublins dominance made such a gap it clouded the judgement of many.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 07, 2021, 12:33:57 PM
https://www.hoganstand.com/Article/Index/320597
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: twohands!!! on October 07, 2021, 04:04:52 PM
Quote
We have 80% of our membership in favour of Proposal B, 90% of our GPA representatives and captains support the series.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/1007/1252296-its-about-fairness-gpa-urge-support-for-option-b/

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: rodney trotter on October 07, 2021, 05:05:32 PM
New proposals explained well enough here https://t.co/VOWcOzhdxP?amp=1
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 07, 2021, 05:23:17 PM
While Plan B has its flaws it's a better format than the current one. It should implemented for a trial period to see how it goes. There's nothing positive to be gained from sticking with the current screwed up system. 

The GAA world didn't end when the new hurling championship structure was implemented and that has proved a success. If it was a player/manager vote it would be a landslide vote, but the individuals who actually attend congress are a different demographic with different agendas and ideas so there's no way of telling how the vote will go
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 07, 2021, 06:56:54 PM
New proposals explained well enough here https://t.co/VOWcOzhdxP?amp=1

So the provincial championships become the O’Byrne/McKenna Cup. Why would  counties like Tyrone/Donegal/Monaghan, teams with All Ireland aspirations take Ulster in any way serious?

The Ulster championship is hard enough to win any year (potentially facing  4 Div 1 opposition to win it), but at least there’s a reward from winning it, ie. a QF place, While those who don’t win it take the arduous scenic route.

But what benefits  are there to say Donegal playing up to 6 games in Feb/March To win  ulster with no reward? Risking injuries, suspensions , and teams knocking ten bells out of each other? Seriously what is the point?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: armaghniac on October 07, 2021, 08:31:13 PM
New proposals explained well enough here https://t.co/VOWcOzhdxP?amp=1

So the provincial championships become the O’Byrne/McKenna Cup. Why would  counties like Tyrone/Donegal/Monaghan, teams with All Ireland aspirations take Ulster in any way serious?

Tyrone were big into the McKenna cup, they'll win 10 Ulsters in a row.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 07, 2021, 09:28:16 PM
if the provincial championships are not that big without being linked to the all ireland does that mean they were not really that big anyway if they were so good should not be able to stand alone like the euro football championships are not linked to the world cup
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 07, 2021, 09:43:29 PM
if the provincial championships are not that big without being linked to the all ireland does that mean they were not really that big anyway if they were so good should not be able to stand alone like the euro football championships are not linked to the world cup

Under proposal B the summer provincial knock out championships become a Provincial pre season league played in February and March.  Not at all comparable to the European championships and World Cup.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 07, 2021, 10:06:48 PM
i first fought proposal b was terrible now i think it might be good there was a thing where people say its not fair that 6th 7th and 8th in division 1 are knocked out well its up to them to win matches then they have a 5 out of 8 chance to do it its up to them to win their games.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 07, 2021, 10:09:08 PM
its kind of like how uefa have coffeciant rankings to determine how many spots a country gets  in champions league division 1 is  the English premier league so they get more spots and division 4 is like the league of ireland.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 07, 2021, 10:18:02 PM
if you give the provincial champions 2 points in the league stage then they will probably take it serious then  the teams that have realistic chance of winning all ireland would having a 2 point start in the league could be very big that would make winning provincials important.perhaps even give them one point if you think 2 points is too much of head start and would heavily favor  Dublin Kerry and mayo too much.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dec on October 07, 2021, 10:19:44 PM
https://www.hoganstand.com/Article/Index/320597

"Proposal B might not be perfect but with the appropriate supports mentioned above and potential innovations in the future (“bonus” league point for provincial finalists, possible “neutral” week in league at Croke Park or other venue – think “Magic Weekend” in Rugby League)"

It had occurred to me that something like that could work even in the traditional championship format could work. Have an Ulster,Connacht, Munster triple header in Croke Park maybe even throw they occasional Munster hurling game into the mix.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: armaghniac on October 07, 2021, 10:31:08 PM
if you give the provincial champions 2 points in the league stage then they will probably take it serious then  the teams that have realistic chance of winning all ireland would having a 2 point start in the league could be very big that would make winning provincials important.perhaps even give them one point if you think 2 points is too much of head start and would heavily favor  Dublin Kerry and mayo too much.

Give them 2 points, but if they got 2 points the previous year only give them 1, and 0 the third year.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 07, 2021, 10:33:08 PM
i first fought proposal b was terrible now i think it might be good there was a thing where people say its not fair that 6th 7th and 8th teams  are knocked out well its up to them to win matches then they have a 5 out of 8 chance to do it its up to them to win their games.

Up to them to win matches? Have you taken into account they are playing in the toughest division and the 6th, 7th, 8th place teams in division 1 would more than likely beat 2nd,3rd in Division 2 and the Division 3,4 winners if given an opportunity to play them.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: armaghniac on October 07, 2021, 10:46:36 PM
i first fought proposal b was terrible now i think it might be good there was a thing where people say its not fair that 6th 7th and 8th teams  are knocked out well its up to them to win matches then they have a 5 out of 8 chance to do it its up to them to win their games.

Up to them to win matches? Have you taken into account they are playing in the toughest division and the 6th, 7th, 8th place teams in division 1 would more than likely beat 2nd,3rd in Division 2 and the Division 3,4 winners if given an opportunity to play them.

If team below the top 4 or 5 had any sense then they'd contrive to be 3rd in Division 2, then they'd be in Sam and would not get promoted where they risked ending the lower 3 in the Div 1 the following year.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dec on October 07, 2021, 11:38:31 PM
i first fought proposal b was terrible now i think it might be good there was a thing where people say its not fair that 6th 7th and 8th teams  are knocked out well its up to them to win matches then they have a 5 out of 8 chance to do it its up to them to win their games.

Up to them to win matches? Have you taken into account they are playing in the toughest division and the 6th, 7th, 8th place teams in division 1 would more than likely beat 2nd,3rd in Division 2 and the Division 3,4 winners if given an opportunity to play them.

If team below the top 4 or 5 had any sense then they'd contrive to be 3rd in Division 2, then they'd be in Sam and would not get promoted where they risked ending the lower 3 in the Div 1 the following year.

And they would end up playing 1 of the top 4 teams in the All Ireland Q/Fs (assuming they beat the Div 3 winners). If they can't beat them in the league I can't see them beating them in the championship.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Louther on October 08, 2021, 10:43:02 AM
Listened to GAA hour on this Plan B with Brian McEvoy from Ulster GAA. I’d be no fan of Parkinson and his arguments generally don’t vary from his own opinion been right but on this issue, he tried to be balanced.

But McEvoy came across as a completely blinkered parody of what we all envisage GAA officials to be. He used plenty of facts and offered guaranteed outcomes based on his own opinion. I’m sure that he has plenty of experience but his whole argument is based on the provinces been a pathway to championship. That they aren’t now solely a pathway was lost on him. He’s seen it all and couldn’t see why people would go to Ulster matches now or why an ulster final couldn’t be a big occasion.

As CEO of the ulster council he should be his job to make it such and to seek out opportunities and to promote these games and make it appealing. Massive opportunities with extra games and a fixed structure of games. As CEO of Ulster he should be dealing with central council and asking them financial outcomes of plan B. Instead he hasn’t been told and seems to leave it there. Of course more should be done but certainly think he doesn’t want to know the answers so not asking the questions.

Another of his arguments was that the super 8s provided too many dead rubbers in last round of games. Yes but in a 4 team group that’s always likely. In a 8 team groups with more places and more outcomes that’s going to change - the leagues demostrate that. Parkinson didn’t pull him on that.

He came across very poor and stubborn to me. And if this is the CEO of the ulster body than can only say that tradition and money is behind every decision and football is well down the priority.

Tom Parsons of GPA much more clear and better informed where arguing the GPA position and they steps they’ve take to inform and educate themselves.



Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 11:03:30 AM
Listened to GAA hour on this Plan B with Brian McEvoy from Ulster GAA. I’d be no fan of Parkinson and his arguments generally don’t vary from his own opinion been right but on this issue, he tried to be balanced.

But McEvoy came across as a completely blinkered parody of what we all envisage GAA officials to be. He used plenty of facts and offered guaranteed outcomes based on his own opinion. I’m sure that he has plenty of experience but his whole argument is based on the provinces been a pathway to championship. That they aren’t now solely a pathway was lost on him. He’s seen it all and couldn’t see why people would go to Ulster matches now or why an ulster final couldn’t be a big occasion.

As CEO of the ulster council he should be his job to make it such and to seek out opportunities and to promote these games and make it appealing. Massive opportunities with extra games and a fixed structure of games. As CEO of Ulster he should be dealing with central council and asking them financial outcomes of plan B. Instead he hasn’t been told and seems to leave it there. Of course more should be done but certainly think he doesn’t want to know the answers so not asking the questions.

Another of his arguments was that the super 8s provided too many dead rubbers in last round of games. Yes but in a 4 team group that’s always likely. In a 8 team groups with more places and more outcomes that’s going to change - the leagues demostrate that. Parkinson didn’t pull him on that.

He came across very poor and stubborn to me. And if this is the CEO of the ulster body than can only say that tradition and money is behind every decision and football is well down the priority.

Tom Parsons of GPA much more clear and better informed where arguing the GPA position and they steps they’ve take to inform and educate themselves.
I thought McAvoy came across very well.

One point he made which I think is not being dealt with is: what would be the pricing structure be for these league as championship games?

The League as it is only gets the crowds it does because prices are lower than for championship.

If you, say, doubled the prices of tickets, what effect does that have on the crowds? Bearing in mind that seven matches in eight weeks will already be very expensive for people to attend, and that there is and never has been a real culture anywhere in Irish sport of attending paid in games week on week.

How attractive can the new pre-season "provincial championships" be? They'll be played in January, February and March. And they themselves will be largely mismatches.

It beggars belief to me that the same people that are saying the provincial championships as they are now are a dead duck are the same people saying they will be attractive as stand alone pre-season competitions played in winter conditions. There's a fundamental contradiction there.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: rodney trotter on October 08, 2021, 11:17:06 AM
Colm Parkinson wasn't aware that the changes will be permanent ,and not a trial basis like the Super 8s.
McEvoy is stubborn enough but made some decent points as did Parkinson
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 08, 2021, 11:36:05 AM
Listened to GAA hour on this Plan B with Brian McEvoy from Ulster GAA. I’d be no fan of Parkinson and his arguments generally don’t vary from his own opinion been right but on this issue, he tried to be balanced.

But McEvoy came across as a completely blinkered parody of what we all envisage GAA officials to be. He used plenty of facts and offered guaranteed outcomes based on his own opinion. I’m sure that he has plenty of experience but his whole argument is based on the provinces been a pathway to championship. That they aren’t now solely a pathway was lost on him. He’s seen it all and couldn’t see why people would go to Ulster matches now or why an ulster final couldn’t be a big occasion.

As CEO of the ulster council he should be his job to make it such and to seek out opportunities and to promote these games and make it appealing. Massive opportunities with extra games and a fixed structure of games. As CEO of Ulster he should be dealing with central council and asking them financial outcomes of plan B. Instead he hasn’t been told and seems to leave it there. Of course more should be done but certainly think he doesn’t want to know the answers so not asking the questions.

Another of his arguments was that the super 8s provided too many dead rubbers in last round of games. Yes but in a 4 team group that’s always likely. In a 8 team groups with more places and more outcomes that’s going to change - the leagues demostrate that. Parkinson didn’t pull him on that.

He came across very poor and stubborn to me. And if this is the CEO of the ulster body than can only say that tradition and money is behind every decision and football is well down the priority.

Tom Parsons of GPA much more clear and better informed where arguing the GPA position and they steps they’ve take to inform and educate themselves.
I thought McAvoy came across very well.

One point he made which I think is not being dealt with is: what would be the pricing structure be for these league as championship games?

The League as it is only gets the crowds it does because prices are lower than for championship.

If you, say, doubled the prices of tickets, what effect does that have on the crowds? Bearing in mind that seven matches in eight weeks will already be very expensive for people to attend, and that there is and never has been a real culture anywhere in Irish sport of attending paid in games week on week.

How attractive can the new pre-season "provincial championships" be? They'll be played in January, February and March. And they themselves will be largely mismatches.

It beggars belief to me that the same people that are saying the provincial championships as they are now are a dead duck are the same people saying they will be attractive as stand alone pre-season competitions played in winter conditions. There's a fundamental contradiction there.

Ideal marketing opportunity for the GAA. Offer different packages for league games, knock out games or both combined. No reason why individual counties can't work with Croke Park to come up with their own pricing schemes.

One of the reason a new structure has to be brought in is because of provincial mismatches. Better that the provincial mismatches are on earlier in the year in poorer conditions than in the summer months when you can have competitive games between equally matched teams on good pitches in good conditions.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Louther on October 08, 2021, 11:39:43 AM
Pricing is a massive opportunity and doesn’t need to set now.

It’s a chance to re engage with people who have left the county game. If matches are competitive and big draws people will attend at the right price.

Rather than saying let’s just charge what we always did, how about looking at pitching it well, promoting the game/occasion and putting new ideas in place - easier to price and sell season tickets, split them into home season tickets, home plus away season tickets. Sell these up front before a ball is kicked.

You have to work at it and add value to it. A Leinster rugby game is always a good example to attend. It’s more than just a game. There is stuff happening, food, drink, kids activities and so much more than just a game. The GAA needs to break the same old routine. Marketing and PR has remained Stone Age.

Then pricing can be looked at and see what the package actually is.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: yellowcard on October 08, 2021, 11:54:00 AM
Listened to GAA hour on this Plan B with Brian McEvoy from Ulster GAA. I’d be no fan of Parkinson and his arguments generally don’t vary from his own opinion been right but on this issue, he tried to be balanced.

But McEvoy came across as a completely blinkered parody of what we all envisage GAA officials to be. He used plenty of facts and offered guaranteed outcomes based on his own opinion. I’m sure that he has plenty of experience but his whole argument is based on the provinces been a pathway to championship. That they aren’t now solely a pathway was lost on him. He’s seen it all and couldn’t see why people would go to Ulster matches now or why an ulster final couldn’t be a big occasion.

As CEO of the ulster council he should be his job to make it such and to seek out opportunities and to promote these games and make it appealing. Massive opportunities with extra games and a fixed structure of games. As CEO of Ulster he should be dealing with central council and asking them financial outcomes of plan B. Instead he hasn’t been told and seems to leave it there. Of course more should be done but certainly think he doesn’t want to know the answers so not asking the questions.

Another of his arguments was that the super 8s provided too many dead rubbers in last round of games. Yes but in a 4 team group that’s always likely. In a 8 team groups with more places and more outcomes that’s going to change - the leagues demostrate that. Parkinson didn’t pull him on that.

He came across very poor and stubborn to me. And if this is the CEO of the ulster body than can only say that tradition and money is behind every decision and football is well down the priority.

Tom Parsons of GPA much more clear and better informed where arguing the GPA position and they steps they’ve take to inform and educate themselves.

Parkinson rightly grilled McAvoy but he certainly wasn't balanced. Its clear that he wants proposal B to go through and that is fine but don't pretend that he is balanced (Parkinson didn't even hide it himself). He has a vested interest in having more high profile county matches with working in the media in the same way that McAvoy was defending his own corner in terms of retaining the provincial competitions. Both have their own clear agendas.

I think plan B is a better option than what currently exists but I don't see it as some great panacea that will solve all the ills. Nor do I see the great spike in attendances that Parkinson seems to think will ensue upon the restructure.   
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Louther on October 08, 2021, 12:09:16 PM
As I said. I don’t like or normally listen to Parkinson but was interested in this.

I think his balance came from that he seen how Ulster could be against any change and accepted its provincial championship worked. He also accepted some views if McEvoys on attendances and dead rubbers.

His bias for Plan B was also clear.

To get any spike or even get back to attendances of 00s, you have to work at them. Gone are the days when people will just go to championship games or any GAA games. To do that, you have to have a product and a competitive game with meaningful games is your base. I will think over couple of years, Plan B would provide that. At present including super 8s and even provinces aren’t that. Back door, miss matches teams, super 8s, have all stagnated. Lot of it self inflicted in my view.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: DuffleKing on October 08, 2021, 12:14:11 PM

The GPA's campaign here is commendable but change here is a dead duck. 60% will be required and you can be sure Brian McEvoy isn't on his own in the back corridors wringing hands and whispering about the impact on their income.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 12:18:38 PM
Pricing is a massive opportunity and doesn’t need to set now.

It’s a chance to re engage with people who have left the county game. If matches are competitive and big draws people will attend at the right price.

Rather than saying let’s just charge what we always did, how about looking at pitching it well, promoting the game/occasion and putting new ideas in place - easier to price and sell season tickets, split them into home season tickets, home plus away season tickets. Sell these up front before a ball is kicked.

You have to work at it and add value to it. A Leinster rugby game is always a good example to attend. It’s more than just a game. There is stuff happening, food, drink, kids activities and so much more than just a game. The GAA needs to break the same old routine. Marketing and PR has remained Stone Age.

Then pricing can be looked at and see what the package actually is.
There are four professional club rugby teams in Ireland.

There are 32 GAA county football teams.

And the attendances those rugby teams attract, bar Leinster, are not big. Munster's attendances have collapsed over the last decade. Connacht have a tiny stadium.

Half time entertainment gimmicks won't work. People are not fools.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Louther on October 08, 2021, 12:41:16 PM
Pricing is a massive opportunity and doesn’t need to set now.

It’s a chance to re engage with people who have left the county game. If matches are competitive and big draws people will attend at the right price.

Rather than saying let’s just charge what we always did, how about looking at pitching it well, promoting the game/occasion and putting new ideas in place - easier to price and sell season tickets, split them into home season tickets, home plus away season tickets. Sell these up front before a ball is kicked.

You have to work at it and add value to it. A Leinster rugby game is always a good example to attend. It’s more than just a game. There is stuff happening, food, drink, kids activities and so much more than just a game. The GAA needs to break the same old routine. Marketing and PR has remained Stone Age.

Then pricing can be looked at and see what the package actually is.
There are four professional club rugby teams in Ireland.

There are 32 GAA county football teams.

And the attendances those rugby teams attract, bar Leinster, are not big. Munster's attendances have collapsed over the last decade. Connacht have a tiny stadium.

Half time entertainment gimmicks won't work. People are not fools.

So we do nothing? Is there nothing that can be learned from other sports?

Connacht game on Friday night in Galway is a big deal, small stadium but will be developed and then what? They get better grounds than Pearse stadium, it’s an event, a few pints or whatever. Ulster games in Ravenhill, a big deal and occasion. And these games are regular. The rugby community is small and these sides suffer with a diluted competition in the Pro14 and internationals not been present regularly.

What Plan B is doing is exactly what the rugby needs. Bigger, high profile games with teams at similar level. Market it other than having two players sitting in Croke park in their jerseys with cheesy smiles and a ball. 

It’s not about gimmicks but even getting a cup or tea or hit food in side a GAA ground is an ordeal. So much more could be done. Half the horse boxes in the country are now mobile cafes and could be put to use round the place.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 08, 2021, 01:01:01 PM
The suggestion by Cathaoirleach Shligigh of a Croke Park/Neutral round is a good one imo.
It would give everyone 3 home, 3 away and 1 Neutral fixture.
Dublin couldn't use Croker for their Neutral game.
Let each Division have a weekend in Croke Park..
D1 could have their first Round Neutral..
Saturday - Dublin v Kerry in De Páirc, Tyrone v Mayowestros in Croker.
Sunday - double header in Croke Park with Armagh, Donegal,  Kildare and Monaghan.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 08, 2021, 01:30:49 PM
Will the semi finals be seeded under proposal b  would the highest seed play the lowest   seed  and 2nd highest play the 2nd lowest also should the highesr seeds get home advantage in quarters and semis  so finishing higher gives you more benefits (we all know gaa wont give away croke park semi revunue tho).
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Cavan19 on October 08, 2021, 01:31:42 PM
It's all about money now and the paid jobs in these provincial councils. There afraid of their life that the ulster championship will end up a damp squib which it possibly would over time under plan B and the money will be gone from them and eventually the GAA will do away with the provincial councils altogether or lessen there influence to cover just underage games.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 08, 2021, 01:35:41 PM
if provincial councils ever went would the club championship become a 32 team knockout beetween county champions kind of like the old eurpean cup as a novelty that would be cool seeing the tyrone  champions having to travel down to kerry or somewhere.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: yellowcard on October 08, 2021, 02:53:45 PM

The GPA's campaign here is commendable but change here is a dead duck. 60% will be required and you can be sure Brian McEvoy isn't on his own in the back corridors wringing hands and whispering about the impact on their income.

Can't agree with that, in fact I'd be surprised if it doesn't go through. It will pass unless the officials do not use their mandate from within the counties themselves. Otherwise expect an awful lot of friction arising up and down the county between players/management and county boards.

The very fact that McAvoy is doing media work at all suggests that he is aware of the fact that change is coming and it could simply be a case of horse trading for a share of the lost income.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 08, 2021, 03:10:47 PM
JP and his Leinster and Munster counterparts are very quiet.
I know the Munster crowd are only interested in the Hurley stuff so is  McEvoy speaking for Connacht and Leinster Councils too or just on a solo?
In 2019 the 4 SFC games played in Connacht attracted 51,500 spectators.
How many would 15 Round Robin games plus a Semi and Final played in Feb/March bring in?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 03:22:44 PM
Pricing is a massive opportunity and doesn’t need to set now.

It’s a chance to re engage with people who have left the county game. If matches are competitive and big draws people will attend at the right price.

Rather than saying let’s just charge what we always did, how about looking at pitching it well, promoting the game/occasion and putting new ideas in place - easier to price and sell season tickets, split them into home season tickets, home plus away season tickets. Sell these up front before a ball is kicked.

You have to work at it and add value to it. A Leinster rugby game is always a good example to attend. It’s more than just a game. There is stuff happening, food, drink, kids activities and so much more than just a game. The GAA needs to break the same old routine. Marketing and PR has remained Stone Age.

Then pricing can be looked at and see what the package actually is.
There are four professional club rugby teams in Ireland.

There are 32 GAA county football teams.

And the attendances those rugby teams attract, bar Leinster, are not big. Munster's attendances have collapsed over the last decade. Connacht have a tiny stadium.

Half time entertainment gimmicks won't work. People are not fools.

So we do nothing? Is there nothing that can be learned from other sports?

Connacht game on Friday night in Galway is a big deal, small stadium but will be developed and then what? They get better grounds than Pearse stadium, it’s an event, a few pints or whatever. Ulster games in Ravenhill, a big deal and occasion. And these games are regular. The rugby community is small and these sides suffer with a diluted competition in the Pro14 and internationals not been present regularly.

What Plan B is doing is exactly what the rugby needs. Bigger, high profile games with teams at similar level. Market it other than having two players sitting in Croke park in their jerseys with cheesy smiles and a ball. 

It’s not about gimmicks but even getting a cup or tea or hit food in side a GAA ground is an ordeal. So much more could be done. Half the horse boxes in the country are now mobile cafes and could be put to use round the place.

Getting food and drink and having decent toilet facilities at stadiums are issues independent of competition formats.

It depends what you want to learn from other sports. GAA learned from English football by having floodlit matches and more live TV. These were good things for sure. It has also brought in terrible ideas from other sports – see the attacking mark, taken from Aussie Rules.

At the heart of all this debate is the word “event”. What is an event?

I think above all, “events” in a sporting sense depend on full stadiums, because full stadiums make atmospheres.

You mention rugby. When rugby went professional, the Heineken Cup became an event. What more than anything made it an event was Munster playing in Thomond Park. But Thomond Park was small then, it only held 7 or 8 thousand people, almost all standing. It was an event because i) the matches were thrilling and genuinely mattered – they had huge jeopardy – only the winner of the four team group was guaranteed to qualify - and ii) ticket demand always outstripped supply because of the small stadium.

Leinster sort of took up the ball and ran with that idea with Friday night games in Donnybrook, which became a quasi-event in themselves because a small, full stadium creates atmosphere.

But when Munster expanded Thomond Park, things didn't go nearly as well as hoped. It now held 25k, and supply suddenly outstripped demand, even for the biggest matches, which actually made them inferior as events to what had been the case when the capacity was 7 or 8k. And there was much less demand for most Celtic League matches. Because the stadium wasn't near full, atmosphere declined. And because people knew that the atmosphere at Celtic League matches wouldn't be great, less people wanted to go, so it became a vicious circle.

With rugby – and with all sporting events, where the stadium is matters. Thomond Park is in a good location. The RDS is in a great location. So is Lansdowne Road. These are great locations for post match socialising. GAA grounds generally don't lend themselves to "events", bar big one off occasions.

Here in Galway the Sportsground is a great location, six or seven minutes walk from Eyre Square, and crucially the ground is small, 6 or 7 thousand capacity, so for Connacht it's a great fit. If they moved to a bigger stadium further out from town I think it would be a disaster for them.

International soccer and rugby tournaments are major “events”. They are mythical lost weeks or weekends away, where supporters are in full on party mode. In GAA, the equivalent is All-Ireland finals and maybe some semi-finals. Munster hurling finals and Ulster football finals would be next down the list.

But what makes an event in GAA parlance? I think in this context we have to look more inward rather than outward. What works and what doesn't work. Again it comes down to full stadiums.

Dublin used to hold league matches in Parnell Park. These worked as events because Parnell Park was small and the ground would generally be filled close to capacity. More people can go to league matches in Croke Park but do they work as well as events? Debatable, but I would say no, because the atmosphere is inferior to what it was at Parnell. Dublin County finals on October Bank Holiday Monday nights worked as events, especially if you got two big Northside teams, because you'd fill the ground.

So in the context of the GAA championship, what makes an event? To me its i) full stadiums ii) what's at stake and iii) weather and timing in the year. 

In winter, smaller events can work in small stadiums, but the championship is the showpiece, so you have to be thinking bigger. That doesn't mean you can't get smaller events to work in small stadiums in summer – Kildare v Mayo in the Newbridge or Nowhere match was very much an “event”. But that was knockout. A lot was at stake. And it was a balmy mid-summer evening.

Munster hurling finals work as events, no matter which venue. They are special.

Ulster football finals work as events. Everybody wants to experience them. They are special.

Munster football finals in Killarney between Cork and Kerry work as events. Half of Cork goes for the day out. It's one day. That's why it's an event.

Dublin matches in the 2000s worked as events. That was predicated on a couple of things. i) Dublin supporters felt starved of success, ii) there was a reasonable expectation of close matches, even in Leinster.

But as big events, these all depended on timing in the year – June, July, August, when there was a much greater chance of fine weather, which makes people want to go.

So if you have a league system as the championship, what will make it an event?

Competition? To me that's heavily diluted. Seven matches absolutely dilutes competition. Dublin and Kerry will likely coast through. It heavily increases predictability. It greatly reduces the chance of real shocks.

After a couple of years of this, people know the score. Dublin and Kerry coast through, a few other counties, generally the usual suspects each year, fight for the remaining knockout places in Division 1. You get the phenomenon of yo-yo teams. In the knockout rounds, the teams from lower divisions get well and truly walloped. People ask, “what's the point”? Dublin and Kerry reach the final most years.

Weather? April and May are colder, there are more competing counter attractions. Harder again to attract spectators. In my view, the move to April and May will quickly come to be seen as a very backward move.

Full stadiums? There aren't going to be many. Going to matches costs money. Newbridge might be full, because its tiny. That's about it. People will pick and choose which matches they can afford to go to, if they are inclined. Croke Park won't be full. Clones won't be full. Pairc Ui Chaoimh won't be full. Pearse Stadium won't be full. Killarney won't be full. Castlebar won't be full. Omagh won't be full. How can you make “events” if everybody knows stadiums are not going to be near full?

And we will have thrown away the great occasions that actually do work as events. For what?

Again, the problem is competitiveness. The 2001-2017 format is a great one. All it requires is better across the board compettiveness. And that problem is fixable. Ireland is made up of 32 counties, most of which have fairly comparable populations. It should enable a competitive championship across the board. You put the structures in place to enable that competitveness – a more equitable NFL format, sponsorship redistribution, better sharing of coaching expertise, and you keep the format that enables shocks - the on the day one. You clip the wings of the strong and help the weak. You don't abandon them. That's what Proposal B does.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: yellowcard on October 08, 2021, 03:31:20 PM
Pricing is a massive opportunity and doesn’t need to set now.

It’s a chance to re engage with people who have left the county game. If matches are competitive and big draws people will attend at the right price.

Rather than saying let’s just charge what we always did, how about looking at pitching it well, promoting the game/occasion and putting new ideas in place - easier to price and sell season tickets, split them into home season tickets, home plus away season tickets. Sell these up front before a ball is kicked.

You have to work at it and add value to it. A Leinster rugby game is always a good example to attend. It’s more than just a game. There is stuff happening, food, drink, kids activities and so much more than just a game. The GAA needs to break the same old routine. Marketing and PR has remained Stone Age.

Then pricing can be looked at and see what the package actually is.
There are four professional club rugby teams in Ireland.

There are 32 GAA county football teams.

And the attendances those rugby teams attract, bar Leinster, are not big. Munster's attendances have collapsed over the last decade. Connacht have a tiny stadium.

Half time entertainment gimmicks won't work. People are not fools.

So we do nothing? Is there nothing that can be learned from other sports?

Connacht game on Friday night in Galway is a big deal, small stadium but will be developed and then what? They get better grounds than Pearse stadium, it’s an event, a few pints or whatever. Ulster games in Ravenhill, a big deal and occasion. And these games are regular. The rugby community is small and these sides suffer with a diluted competition in the Pro14 and internationals not been present regularly.

What Plan B is doing is exactly what the rugby needs. Bigger, high profile games with teams at similar level. Market it other than having two players sitting in Croke park in their jerseys with cheesy smiles and a ball. 

It’s not about gimmicks but even getting a cup or tea or hit food in side a GAA ground is an ordeal. So much more could be done. Half the horse boxes in the country are now mobile cafes and could be put to use round the place.

Getting food and drink and having decent toilet facilities at stadiums are issues independent of competition formats.

It depends what you want to learn from other sports. GAA learned from English football by having floodlit matches and more live TV. These were good things for sure. It has also brought in terrible ideas from other sports – see the attacking mark, taken from Aussie Rules.

At the heart of all this debate is the word “event”. What is an event?

I think above all, “events” in a sporting sense depend on full stadiums, because full stadiums make atmospheres.

You mention rugby. When rugby went professional, the Heineken Cup became an event. What more than anything made it an event was Munster playing in Thomond Park. But Thomond Park was small then, it only held 7 or 8 thousand people, almost all standing. It was an event because i) the matches were thrilling and genuinely mattered – they had huge jeopardy – only the winner of the four team group was guaranteed to qualify - and ii) ticket demand always outstripped supply because of the small stadium.

Leinster sort of took up the ball and ran with that idea with Friday night games in Donnybrook, which became a quasi-event in themselves because a small, full stadium creates atmosphere.

But when Munster expanded Thomond Park, things didn't go nearly as well as hoped. It now held 25k, and supply suddenly outstripped demand, even for the biggest matches, which actually made them inferior as events to what had been the case when the capacity was 7 or 8k. And there was much less demand for most Celtic League matches. Because the stadium wasn't near full, atmosphere declined. And because people knew that the atmosphere at Celtic League matches wouldn't be great, less people wanted to go, so it became a vicious circle.

With rugby – and with all sporting events, where the stadium is matters. Thomond Park is in a good location. The RDS is in a great location. So is Lansdowne Road. These are great locations for post match socialising. GAA grounds generally don't lend themselves to "events", bar big one off occasions.

Here in Galway the Sportsground is a great location, six or seven minutes walk from Eyre Square, and crucially the ground is small, 6 or 7 thousand capacity, so for Connacht it's a great fit. If they moved to a bigger stadium further out from town I think it would be a disaster for them.

International soccer and rugby tournaments are major “events”. They are mythical lost weeks or weekends away, where supporters are in full on party mode. In GAA, the equivalent is All-Ireland finals and maybe some semi-finals. Munster hurling finals and Ulster football finals would be next down the list.

But what makes an event in GAA parlance? I think in this context we have to look more inward rather than outward. What works and what doesn't work. Again it comes down to full stadiums.

Dublin used to hold league matches in Parnell Park. These worked as events because Parnell Park was small and the ground would generally be filled close to capacity. More people can go to league matches in Croke Park but do they work as well as events? Debatable, but I would say no, because the atmosphere is inferior to what it was at Parnell. Dublin County finals on October Bank Holiday Monday nights worked as events, especially if you got two big Northside teams, because you'd fill the ground.

So in the context of the GAA championship, what makes an event? To me its i) full stadiums ii) what's at stake and iii) weather and timing in the year. 

In winter, smaller events can work in small stadiums, but the championship is the showpiece, so you have to be thinking bigger. That doesn't mean you can't get smaller events to work in small stadiums in summer – Kildare v Mayo in the Newbridge or Nowhere match was very much an “event”. But that was knockout. A lot was at stake. And it was a balmy mid-summer evening.

Munster hurling finals work as events, no matter which venue. They are special.

Ulster football finals work as events. Everybody wants to experience them. They are special.

Munster football finals in Killarney between Cork and Kerry work as events. Half of Cork goes for the day out. It's one day. That's why it's an event.

Dublin matches in the 2000s worked as events. That was predicated on a couple of things. i) Dublin supporters felt starved of success, ii) there was a reasonable expectation of close matches, even in Leinster.

But as big events, these all depended on timing in the year – June, July, August, when there was a much greater chance of fine weather, which makes people want to go.

So if you have a league system as the championship, what will make it an event?

Competition? To me that's heavily diluted. Seven matches absolutely dilutes competition. Dublin and Kerry will likely coast through. It heavily increases predictability. It greatly reduces the chance of real shocks.

After a couple of years of this, people know the score. Dublin and Kerry coast through, a few other counties, generally the usual suspects each year, fight for the remaining knockout places in Division 1. You get the phenomenon of yo-yo teams. In the knockout rounds, the teams from lower divisions get well and truly walloped. People ask, “what's the point”? Dublin and Kerry reach the final most years.

Weather? April and May are colder, there are more competing counter attractions. Harder again to attract spectators. In my view, the move to April and May will quickly come to be seen as a very backward move.

Full stadiums? There aren't going to be many. Going to matches costs money. Newbridge might be full, because its tiny. That's about it. People will pick and choose which matches they can afford to go to, if they are inclined. Croke Park won't be full. Clones won't be full. Pairc Ui Chaoimh won't be full. Pearse Stadium won't be full. Killarney won't be full. Castlebar won't be full. Omagh won't be full. How can you make “events” if everybody knows stadiums are not going to be near full?

And we will have thrown away the great occasions that actually do work as events. For what?

Again, the problem is competitiveness. The 2001-2017 format is a great one. All it requires is better across the board compettiveness. And that problem is fixable. Ireland is made up of 32 counties, most of which have fairly comparable populations. It should enable a competitive championship across the board. You put the structures in place to enable that competitveness – a more equitable NFL format, sponsorship redistribution, better sharing of coaching expertise, and you keep the format that enables shocks - the on the day one. You clip the wings of the strong and help the weak. You don't abandon them. That's what Proposal B does.

Excellent post.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 03:43:53 PM
The suggestion by Cathaoirleach Shligigh of a Croke Park/Neutral round is a good one imo.
It would give everyone 3 home, 3 away and 1 Neutral fixture.
Dublin couldn't use Croker for their Neutral game.
Let each Division have a weekend in Croke Park..
D1 could have their first Round Neutral..
Saturday - Dublin v Kerry in De Páirc, Tyrone v Mayowestros in Croker.
Sunday - double header in Croke Park with Armagh, Donegal,  Kildare and Monaghan.
What sort of crowds would you expect at these "exceedingly attractive double headers™"?

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 08, 2021, 04:00:45 PM
Counties like Carlow, Longford and Louth are usually out of the championship after early on and never get a run of games in the summer. At least with Plan B that could change and I'd expect counties like them to bring large crowds to games.

No matter how much money and/or coaches you throw at these smaller counties they are not going to be challenging for Leinster titles. At least with the Tailtean Cup they have a genuine trophy they can aim for
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Louther on October 08, 2021, 04:01:44 PM
Sid,

A lot of what you said is correct but we need to modernise the game. Times have changed, people only have to take their phones out of their pockets now to be entertained or watch a premier league game, GAA match or latest Netflix hit or play online games with people the other side of the world that they’ve never met. You have to draw them out and cater for all.

You mention 2017. Why was 2017 changed to super 8s. Cause the last number of years attendances and games where falling off. It didn’t happen over night. It gradually dropped, people found other ways to spend their time and GAA didn’t match up.

Competitiveness of games a major part of this. Your last paragraph falls apart in my eyes. Do you really think that 32 counties can be competitive at same level? And shared coaching, sponsorship distribution etc will help that. No harm but that’s a pie in the sky idea. Counties won’t even share team news never mind coaching expertise and money.

The Senior Intercounty championship is the only competition in the whole of GAA that we obsess with all counties been competitive and competing at the same level. Let teams get success and compete at their own level and grow that way. It works well at club level. Time the Senior county game got to same tune.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 08, 2021, 04:18:01 PM
Works at Club level in all 4 sports.
Works at County level in Hurling, Camogie and Ladies football.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 04:29:29 PM
Sid,

A lot of what you said is correct but we need to modernise the game. Times have changed, people only have to take their phones out of their pockets now to be entertained or watch a premier league game, GAA match or latest Netflix hit or play online games with people the other side of the world that they’ve never met. You have to draw them out and cater for all.

You mention 2017. Why was 2017 changed to super 8s. Cause the last number of years attendances and games where falling off. It didn’t happen over night. It gradually dropped, people found other ways to spend their time and GAA didn’t match up.

Competitiveness of games a major part of this. Your last paragraph falls apart in my eyes. Do you really think that 32 counties can be competitive at same level? And shared coaching, sponsorship distribution etc will help that. No harm but that’s a pie in the sky idea. Counties won’t even share team news never mind coaching expertise and money.

The Senior Intercounty championship is the only competition in the whole of GAA that we obsess with all counties been competitive and competing at the same level. Let teams get success and compete at their own level and grow that way. It works well at club level. Time the Senior county game got to same tune.
You see you're setting up a straw man there. I never said that 32 counties could be on the same level of competitiveness. Strong counties and weak counties will always exist. But 32 counties can definitely have a much greater degree of competitiveness between each other than exists now. 12 or 15 years ago Longford could play Dublin or Kerry and have a decent hope of putting up a good fight. Can they now?

"Modernise" is a buzzword.

The bottom line is if you structure inter-county in an elitist way - and since 2008 that has been the case - and will be to a much greater extent again under Proposal B -  it becomes only for the elite. That will mean about two counties, three if you're lucky.

The rest might as well not bother.

If you take the championship out of its natural time frame of summer and into spring, you're worsening the weather conditions it will played in, and allied to a much more predictable product played at a time of year when television sporting counter attractions are at their height, you are telling your audience to get stuffed.

If that's "modernisation", you can keep it.

Surely "modernisation" should entail greater competitiveness and more and better occasions - not less?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 08, 2021, 04:54:46 PM
if provincial councils ever went would the club championship become a 32 team knockout beetween county champions kind of like the old eurpean cup as a novelty that would be cool seeing the tyrone  champions having to travel down to kerry or somewhere.

Can’t see that happening. Imagine the amount of money it would cost a club side from say, Antrim to go to Cork for a fixture.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Louther on October 08, 2021, 05:00:02 PM
Can’t say I agree with any of that and why is “modernisation” quoted.  Modernise was correct and if you not doing that you going backwards, at best standing still.

The championship will be played in April, May and into June now. Ideal time with the quality of Intercounty pitches and for spectators

Comparable populations? Wrong

Should have competitiveness across the board - how? And none of your gimmicks of sharing resources be it money or coaching. How are Wexford footballers suddenly going to get competitive.

Retain possible shocks - unless it’s straight knockout the this isn’t happening. Teams can lose twice as it is. Why not have big teams playing each other for league positions and build on shocks that way. Have an early loss where Dublin travel to Kerry and lose knowing they’ve to go to Mayo in a few weeks and build pressure on them. May or may not happen but there is certainly nothing to put pressure on them in normal year with supe 8s and two games at “home”.

And why won’t a two tier all Ireland work you’ve not addressed that when it works in every other level and sport. Should Louth hurlers get a run at Kilkenny again and if not, why shouldn’t the Kilkenny hurlers send up their coaches and money to help take them down.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 08, 2021, 05:07:43 PM
It's not as if 25 Counties got to AI Finals last 30 years with 20 different winners.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the actual figures are 11 and 9??
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 08, 2021, 05:08:34 PM
You put the structures in place to enable that competitveness – a more equitable NFL format, sponsorship redistribution, better sharing of coaching expertise, and you keep the format that enables shocks - the on the day one. You clip the wings of the strong and help the weak. You don't abandon them. That's what Proposal B does.


Yeah I’d agree with that. Cork beat Kerry last year, then Tipp beat Cork on the day. If Munster was a league format (as proposed), would Tipp end up as champions? Unlikely. But on the day, knockout format, they did. Same as Cavan. Would they have won Ulster having to beat all  of Donegal Tyrone Armagh and Monaghan in a league format ? Again, unlikely.

Look at the FA cup. You always had lower teams reaching semis and finals. Even winning it. Sunderland 92, Chesterfield 97, Luton 94, Wycombe 2001. All lower division teams, who ended up in semis/finals. Put them in a league with Liverpool Arsenal Man Utd week in week out, and they would never survive. But in a one-off fixture, you just never know.

The All Ireland needs knockout games. Not this league bullshit.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 05:11:57 PM
Can’t say I agree with any of that and why is “modernisation” quoted.  Modernise was correct and if you not doing that you going backwards, at best standing still.

The championship will be played in April, May and into June now. Ideal time with the quality of Intercounty pitches and for spectators

Comparable populations? Wrong

Should have competitiveness across the board - how? And none of your gimmicks of sharing resources be it money or coaching. How are Wexford footballers suddenly going to get competitive.

Retain possible shocks - unless it’s straight knockout the this isn’t happening. Teams can lose twice as it is. Why not have big teams playing each other for league positions and build on shocks that way. Have an early loss where Dublin travel to Kerry and lose knowing they’ve to go to Mayo in a few weeks and build pressure on them. May or may not happen but there is certainly nothing to put pressure on them in normal year with supe 8s and two games at “home”.

And why won’t a two tier all Ireland work you’ve not addressed that when it works in every other level and sport. Should Louth hurlers get a run at Kilkenny again and if not, why shouldn’t the Kilkenny hurlers send up their coaches and money to help take them down.
Apart from Dublin and Cork, most counties have reasonably comparable populations - ie. it should be possible for most counties to beat each other on a given day.

And Dublin and Cork have some mitigating factors against them - in Dublin GAA is a minority pursuit, in Cork football has always been second fiddle to hurling.

Monaghan have consistently been a top six team for a decade now with a population of 60k. If they can do it, there's little excuse for others.

But over a longer competition, and especially if its the championship, imbalances will become amplified. When it's on the day, they can often be masked and overcome.

Dublin and Kerry will coast through every year. The rest will have to fight to get through. Come the knockout stages, Dublin and Kerry will be in much better shape.

For a two tier competition to have any hope of working you would have to entirely separate it from the top tier, and that won't wash.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 05:17:16 PM
You put the structures in place to enable that competitveness – a more equitable NFL format, sponsorship redistribution, better sharing of coaching expertise, and you keep the format that enables shocks - the on the day one. You clip the wings of the strong and help the weak. You don't abandon them. That's what Proposal B does.


Yeah I’d agree with that. Cork beat Kerry last year, then Tipp beat Cork on the day. If Munster was a league format (as proposed), would Tipp end up as champions? Unlikely. But on the day, knockout format, they did. Same as Cavan. Would they have won Ulster having to beat all  of Donegal Tyrone Armagh and Monaghan? Again, unlikely.

Look at the FA cup. You always had lower teams reaching semis and finals. Even winning it. Sunderland 92, Chesterfield 97, Luton 94, Wycombe 2001. All lower division teams, who ended up in semis/finals. Put them in a league with Liverpool Arsenal Man Utd week in week out, and they would never survive. But in a one-off fixture, you just never know.

The All Ireland needs knockout games. Not this league bullshit.
Sure even pre-season "provincial championships" are round robin.

Who wants that?

What is the point of Kerry, who will be feasting on a diet of Division 1 championship football every year, playing Waterford and Limerick and Clare and Tipp in the muck of February, before playing the inevitable "final" against Cork?

Who will go to these games?

Like, with an O'Byrne Cup knockout match, you at least know what you're getting. Largely second string teams facing off against each other in the muck. It doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't. It's an excuse to get out of the house on a January Sunday afternoon. Nobody is pretending it's the actual Leinster championship.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 05:25:57 PM

Should have competitiveness across the board - how? And none of your gimmicks of sharing resources be it money or coaching. How are Wexford footballers suddenly going to get competitive.

How did Wexford get competitive in the 2000s? From being exposed to better teams in the league. They got out of a 16 team Division 2, and because the jump to a 16 team Division 1 was not as great - because the top 8 teams were split and not allowed gallop away in terms of standard, Wexford were able to learn the ropes and start to compete with good teams.

Quote
And why won’t a two tier all Ireland work you’ve not addressed that when it works in every other level and sport. Should Louth hurlers get a run at Kilkenny again and if not, why shouldn’t the Kilkenny hurlers send up their coaches and money to help take them down.
When Antrim and Down were exposed to better teams in the late 80s and early 90s, they did compete. Antrim reached the All-Ireland final and nearly beat Kilkenny in another semi-final, they seriously rattled Cork in another. Down rattled Cork in an All-Ireland semi-final and beat Kilkenny in Nowlan Park in the league. Even Derry rattled Offaly in an All-Ireland quarter-final. They can't compete now because they're far too siloed into poor standard hurling.

For them to ever have a hope of competing at any sort of decent level again, there would have to be a format which ensured that they got a decent run at better teams for an extended period of years.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 08, 2021, 05:29:37 PM
You put the structures in place to enable that competitveness – a more equitable NFL format, sponsorship redistribution, better sharing of coaching expertise, and you keep the format that enables shocks - the on the day one. You clip the wings of the strong and help the weak. You don't abandon them. That's what Proposal B does.


Yeah I’d agree with that. Cork beat Kerry last year, then Tipp beat Cork on the day. If Munster was a league format (as proposed), would Tipp end up as champions? Unlikely. But on the day, knockout format, they did. Same as Cavan. Would they have won Ulster having to beat all  of Donegal Tyrone Armagh and Monaghan? Again, unlikely.

Look at the FA cup. You always had lower teams reaching semis and finals. Even winning it. Sunderland 92, Chesterfield 97, Luton 94, Wycombe 2001. All lower division teams, who ended up in semis/finals. Put them in a league with Liverpool Arsenal Man Utd week in week out, and they would never survive. But in a one-off fixture, you just never know.

The All Ireland needs knockout games. Not this league bullshit.
Sure even pre-season "provincial championships" are round robin.

Who wants that?

What is the point of Kerry, who will be feasting on a diet of Division 1 championship football every year, playing Waterford and Limerick and Clare and Tipp in the muck of February, before playing the inevitable "final" against Cork?

Who will go to these games?

Like, with an O'Byrne Cup knockout match, you at least know what you're getting. Largely second string teams facing off against each other in the muck. It doesn't pretend to be anything it isn't. It's an excuse to get out of the house on a January Sunday afternoon. Nobody is pretending it's the actual Leinster championship.
Loads of top brass Gaa figures especially Leinster heads wants to get rid of the provincial championships however they know they can't right now so plan B is to play them in February, March in a league format which will eventually kill them off.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Louther on October 08, 2021, 05:32:04 PM
No one goes to Munster championship games anyway! You get a few at the final but the rest are ignored!

Kerry men would tell you they hardly count their Munster medals. Dublin are embarrassed collecting the Leinster Trophy these days and I doubt it’s even celebrated. Ulster counties make the most of theirs but the rest of the provinces are dead at county level. Stone dead and you can’t deny that.

You’ll get league/championship now and all the games you’ll want. We’ve often tipped to see who Armagh or Monaghan are playing or even into Dublin games in the league when they are appealing. And that’s just league. The same guys won’t go to Louth championship matches as it’s going only one way. Give them competitive games and they’ll go. We’d hope to be going that way anyway but it’s a long road and provincial titles aren’t Hartes goal. The league is and all div 3 and 4 teams are the same plus some in 2.

Monaghan a great example of coming from 3 to win an ulster. But two years before that they where Div1 and competing in Croke Park with Kerry. So them in Div 3 was the exception but as a small county they’ve had to put serious effort to stay in Div1 and for no reward come championship. It’s actually probably hurt them having to play league at such a level. They’d be happy in Div1, finishing top 4 with an all Ireland quarter to look forward to. Serious reward for their efforts and clear sight at an all Ireland.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Louther on October 08, 2021, 05:34:25 PM

Should have competitiveness across the board - how? And none of your gimmicks of sharing resources be it money or coaching. How are Wexford footballers suddenly going to get competitive.

How did Wexford get competitive in the 2000s? From being exposed to better teams in the league. They got out of a 16 team Division 2, and because the jump to a 16 team Division 1 was not as great - because the top 8 teams were split and not allowed gallop away in terms of standard, Wexford were able to learn the ropes and start to compete with good teams.

Quote
And why won’t a two tier all Ireland work you’ve not addressed that when it works in every other level and sport. Should Louth hurlers get a run at Kilkenny again and if not, why shouldn’t the Kilkenny hurlers send up their coaches and money to help take them down.
When Antrim and Down were exposed to better teams in the late 80s and early 90s, they did compete. Antrim reached the All-Ireland final and nearly beat Kilkenny in another semi-final, they seriously rattled Cork in another. Down rattled Cork in an All-Ireland semi-final and beat Kilkenny in Nowlan Park in the league. Even Derry rattled Offaly in an All-Ireland quarter-final. They can't compete now because they're far too siloed into poor standard hurling.

For them to ever have a hope of competing at any sort of decent level again, there would have to be a format which ensured that they got a decent run at better teams for an extended period of years.


Does that Wexford point not prove how Plan B is a plus? Get better at you level and progress through the league?

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 05:44:29 PM
No one goes to Munster championship games anyway! You get a few at the final but the rest are ignored!

Kerry men would tell you they hardly count their Munster medals. Dublin are embarrassed collecting the Leinster Trophy these days and I doubt it’s even celebrated. Ulster counties make the most of theirs but the rest of the provinces are dead at county level. Stone dead and you can’t deny that.

You’ll get league/championship now and all the games you’ll want. We’ve often tipped to see who Armagh or Monaghan are playing or even into Dublin games in the league when they are appealing. And that’s just league. The same guys won’t go to Louth championship matches as it’s going only one way. Give them competitive games and they’ll go. We’d hope to be going that way anyway but it’s a long road and provincial titles aren’t Hartes goal. The league is and all div 3 and 4 teams are the same plus some in 2.

Monaghan a great example of coming from 3 to win an ulster. But two years before that they where Div1 and competing in Croke Park with Kerry. So them in Div 3 was the exception but as a small county they’ve had to put serious effort to stay in Div1 and for no reward come championship. It’s actually probably hurt them having to play league at such a level. They’d be happy in Div1, finishing top 4 with an all Ireland quarter to look forward to. Serious reward for their efforts and clear sight at an all Ireland.
But all these competitions have been very competitive in the recent past.

You go back to 2010, Kerry and Cork drew in Killarney in a titanic tussle, and then Kerry won a second titanic tussle in extra time in Cork. Limerick seriously put it up to them in the final in Killarney. Cork beat Limerick by a point in the back door that year, going on to win the All-Ireland. And Tipp won Munster last year. Clare are reasonably competitive. If those teams were primed by a good standard of football and Kerry were not allowed feast on top quality Division 1 football, the gaps would be closer.

Leinster has the potential to be a serious battle between Dublin, Meath and Kildare. It generally was until a decade ago. And when Dublin were seriously challenged by Meath and Kildare with a Leinster title at stake, Croke Park was invariably filled.

Connacht has three good teams. Why have the other two fallen off a cliff? They're siloed in Division 4, while the other three have been Division 1 regulars.

A decade ago people were calling for the Leinster hurling championship to be abolished because Kilkenny were so dominant, yet it has been very competitive since 2012.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: DuffleKing on October 08, 2021, 05:48:51 PM

The GPA's campaign here is commendable but change here is a dead duck. 60% will be required and you can be sure Brian McEvoy isn't on his own in the back corridors wringing hands and whispering about the impact on their income.

Can't agree with that, in fact I'd be surprised if it doesn't go through. It will pass unless the officials do not use their mandate from within the counties themselves. Otherwise expect an awful lot of friction arising up and down the county between players/management and county boards.

The very fact that McAvoy is doing media work at all suggests that he is aware of the fact that change is coming and it could simply be a case of horse trading for a share of the lost income.

You haven't been paying attention to how congress works and the fact you're expecting delegates to represent their mandate is puzzling.

Provincial councils get all of their championship gate money but none of the all Ireland/ central games. That's the issue in a nutshell.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 05:49:40 PM

Should have competitiveness across the board - how? And none of your gimmicks of sharing resources be it money or coaching. How are Wexford footballers suddenly going to get competitive.

How did Wexford get competitive in the 2000s? From being exposed to better teams in the league. They got out of a 16 team Division 2, and because the jump to a 16 team Division 1 was not as great - because the top 8 teams were split and not allowed gallop away in terms of standard, Wexford were able to learn the ropes and start to compete with good teams.

Quote
And why won’t a two tier all Ireland work you’ve not addressed that when it works in every other level and sport. Should Louth hurlers get a run at Kilkenny again and if not, why shouldn’t the Kilkenny hurlers send up their coaches and money to help take them down.
When Antrim and Down were exposed to better teams in the late 80s and early 90s, they did compete. Antrim reached the All-Ireland final and nearly beat Kilkenny in another semi-final, they seriously rattled Cork in another. Down rattled Cork in an All-Ireland semi-final and beat Kilkenny in Nowlan Park in the league. Even Derry rattled Offaly in an All-Ireland quarter-final. They can't compete now because they're far too siloed into poor standard hurling.

For them to ever have a hope of competing at any sort of decent level again, there would have to be a format which ensured that they got a decent run at better teams for an extended period of years.


Does that Wexford point not prove how Plan B is a plus? Get better at you level and progress through the league?
No. Because with the Divisions 1-4 format the gap is far too much. The point is that back in the 2000s, the gap between 1A/1B and 2A/2B was much more bridgeable. There was a much greater mixing of standard, which meant a greater pooling in the middle - but that made for excellent across the board competitiveness.

This is now a long term problem and even if the correct remedial measures were applied, it would probably take a good 3-5 years for the gaps to narrow properly.

That doesn't mean that corrective action shouldn't be taken.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 08, 2021, 06:09:05 PM
The gap is not the result of league structures. Your  notions on Gaelic games tend to delve into romance and this is a prime example.

The gap is a result of the semi professionalism of Gaelic Games in the early noughties, that gathered pace in the 2010s.

When a county with a footballing culture and a deep playing pool,  combine solid finances and strong leadership to put in place professional management structures, it generates a significantly higher plane of athletic, skilful and tactically astute player. And when that player comes against opponents who haven’t been exposed to these levels of management, they are then exposed on the pitch.

Need proof? Limerick have done the same thing in hurling. None of the other hurling powers are playing the same game at them at present, even though they all play in the same competitions week in week out.

——-

Smaller counties like Wexford, Sligo, Tipperary and Fermanagh have shown the gap is somewhat surmountable when a handful of generational talents align. But there’s a chicken and egg in this for counties. If they haven’t hit the place of birth jackpot by unloading 2-3 highest quality players at once, then every game they play against the top 10-12 teams in Ireland is not going to end well. For those teams will be equally well conditioned and learned… but will have better players, simply because they’ve more players to pick from. When a cluster of generational talents comes along though, it’s very easy for county boards, clubs, money men and next rung down players to throw their weight behind. They know that some good can come from it.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Louther on October 08, 2021, 06:15:18 PM
No one goes to Munster championship games anyway! You get a few at the final but the rest are ignored!

Kerry men would tell you they hardly count their Munster medals. Dublin are embarrassed collecting the Leinster Trophy these days and I doubt it’s even celebrated. Ulster counties make the most of theirs but the rest of the provinces are dead at county level. Stone dead and you can’t deny that.

You’ll get league/championship now and all the games you’ll want. We’ve often tipped to see who Armagh or Monaghan are playing or even into Dublin games in the league when they are appealing. And that’s just league. The same guys won’t go to Louth championship matches as it’s going only one way. Give them competitive games and they’ll go. We’d hope to be going that way anyway but it’s a long road and provincial titles aren’t Hartes goal. The league is and all div 3 and 4 teams are the same plus some in 2.

Monaghan a great example of coming from 3 to win an ulster. But two years before that they where Div1 and competing in Croke Park with Kerry. So them in Div 3 was the exception but as a small county they’ve had to put serious effort to stay in Div1 and for no reward come championship. It’s actually probably hurt them having to play league at such a level. They’d be happy in Div1, finishing top 4 with an all Ireland quarter to look forward to. Serious reward for their efforts and clear sight at an all Ireland.
But all these competitions have been very competitive in the recent past.

You go back to 2010, Kerry and Cork drew in Killarney in a titanic tussle, and then Kerry won a second titanic tussle in extra time in Cork. Limerick seriously put it up to them in the final in Killarney. Cork beat Limerick by a point in the back door that year, going on to win the All-Ireland. And Tipp won Munster last year. Clare are reasonably competitive. If those teams were primed by a good standard of football and Kerry were not allowed feast on top quality Division 1 football, the gaps would be closer.

Leinster has the potential to be a serious battle between Dublin, Meath and Kildare. It generally was until a decade ago. And when Dublin were seriously challenged by Meath and Kildare with a Leinster title at stake, Croke Park was invariably filled.

Connacht has three good teams. Why have the other two fallen off a cliff? They're siloed in Division 4, while the other three have been Division 1 regulars.

A decade ago people were calling for the Leinster hurling championship to be abolished because Kilkenny were so dominant, yet it has been very competitive since 2012.

I genuinely don’t know what you arguing for anymore. You seem fixated on the provincial championships. Should those Connacht teams be playing in Div1 to make them stronger to have an attempt at winning championship.

I think the general feeling is that the provincial championships are dead. Play them as warm up. No one really cares if they beat or not. Players in “weaker” counties opt out and head for the states. They are done.

Do you want plan 8 with 4 newly invented provinces where two robin leagues will make teams more competitive within their new province?

It’s the all Ireland series that’s been restructured.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Blowitupref on October 08, 2021, 06:47:37 PM
No one goes to Munster championship games anyway! You get a few at the final but the rest are ignored!

Kerry men would tell you they hardly count their Munster medals. Dublin are embarrassed collecting the Leinster Trophy these days and I doubt it’s even celebrated. Ulster counties make the most of theirs but the rest of the provinces are dead at county level. Stone dead and you can’t deny that.

Are these the scenes from something that is stone dead?








And how likely is scenes like that to be reproduced if Galway or Roscommon reach the All-Ireland quarter final by winning Div 2 or via a play off for finishing 2nd, 3rd in Div 2?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 08, 2021, 07:08:24 PM
If proposal B does go through, then the 6th place in Division 1 will feel hard done by, not bad enough to be relegated, not good enough for Sam and too good for Tailteann Cup.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 07:47:46 PM
The gap is not the result of league structures. Your  notions on Gaelic games tend to delve into romance and this is a prime example.

The gap is a result of the semi professionalism of Gaelic Games in the early noughties, that gathered pace in the 2010s.

When a county with a footballing culture and a deep playing pool,  combine solid finances and strong leadership to put in place professional management structures, it generates a significantly higher plane of athletic, skilful and tactically astute player. And when that player comes against opponents who haven’t been exposed to these levels of management, they are then exposed on the pitch.

Need proof? Limerick have done the same thing in hurling. None of the other hurling powers are playing the same game at them at present, even though they all play in the same competitions week in week out.

——-

Smaller counties like Wexford, Sligo, Tipperary and Fermanagh have shown the gap is somewhat surmountable when a handful of generational talents align. But there’s a chicken and egg in this for counties. If they haven’t hit the place of birth jackpot by unloading 2-3 highest quality players at once, then every game they play against the top 10-12 teams in Ireland is not going to end well. For those teams will be equally well conditioned and learned… but will have better players, simply because they’ve more players to pick from. When a cluster of generational talents comes along though, it’s very easy for county boards, clubs, money men and next rung down players to throw their weight behind. They know that some good can come from it.
The rise in standards and professionalism among the strong and the relative fall in standards and professionalism and standards among the weak and the mid tier counties has been thoroughly enabled and encouraged by siloing.

You cannot but fall far behind when you are siloed in lower divisions.

If you put the most gifted students in a school year of 90 in a small class of 5 or 10 and allow them to work at a faster pace, they will leave the rest of the year, who work at a much slower pace, far behind.

That's what Division 1 is.

This should be obvious.

And it's why you consistently see teams yo-yoing between Division 1 and Division 2.

The point of redistribution of funding is to give all inter-county teams a chance to prepare in a more professional way.

Currently, there is no redistribution mechanism.

If you want a thoroughly utilitarian competition where two, or at best three or four teams can be competitive, and to hell with the rest - and it's obvious that is what you want - at least be honest about it.

You denigrate romance in sport - but without romance, competitions die.







Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 07:54:09 PM
No one goes to Munster championship games anyway! You get a few at the final but the rest are ignored!

Kerry men would tell you they hardly count their Munster medals. Dublin are embarrassed collecting the Leinster Trophy these days and I doubt it’s even celebrated. Ulster counties make the most of theirs but the rest of the provinces are dead at county level. Stone dead and you can’t deny that.

You’ll get league/championship now and all the games you’ll want. We’ve often tipped to see who Armagh or Monaghan are playing or even into Dublin games in the league when they are appealing. And that’s just league. The same guys won’t go to Louth championship matches as it’s going only one way. Give them competitive games and they’ll go. We’d hope to be going that way anyway but it’s a long road and provincial titles aren’t Hartes goal. The league is and all div 3 and 4 teams are the same plus some in 2.

Monaghan a great example of coming from 3 to win an ulster. But two years before that they where Div1 and competing in Croke Park with Kerry. So them in Div 3 was the exception but as a small county they’ve had to put serious effort to stay in Div1 and for no reward come championship. It’s actually probably hurt them having to play league at such a level. They’d be happy in Div1, finishing top 4 with an all Ireland quarter to look forward to. Serious reward for their efforts and clear sight at an all Ireland.
But all these competitions have been very competitive in the recent past.

You go back to 2010, Kerry and Cork drew in Killarney in a titanic tussle, and then Kerry won a second titanic tussle in extra time in Cork. Limerick seriously put it up to them in the final in Killarney. Cork beat Limerick by a point in the back door that year, going on to win the All-Ireland. And Tipp won Munster last year. Clare are reasonably competitive. If those teams were primed by a good standard of football and Kerry were not allowed feast on top quality Division 1 football, the gaps would be closer.

Leinster has the potential to be a serious battle between Dublin, Meath and Kildare. It generally was until a decade ago. And when Dublin were seriously challenged by Meath and Kildare with a Leinster title at stake, Croke Park was invariably filled.

Connacht has three good teams. Why have the other two fallen off a cliff? They're siloed in Division 4, while the other three have been Division 1 regulars.

A decade ago people were calling for the Leinster hurling championship to be abolished because Kilkenny were so dominant, yet it has been very competitive since 2012.

I genuinely don’t know what you arguing for anymore. You seem fixated on the provincial championships. Should those Connacht teams be playing in Div1 to make them stronger to have an attempt at winning championship.

I think the general feeling is that the provincial championships are dead. Play them as warm up. No one really cares if they beat or not. Players in “weaker” counties opt out and head for the states. They are done.

Do you want plan 8 with 4 newly invented provinces where two robin leagues will make teams more competitive within their new province?

It’s the all Ireland series that’s been restructured.

I've consistently said what I propose. A return to the 2017 championship format and the 1999-2007 League format. When Gaelic football was in as healthy and egalitarian a state as it ever was. Every county had the opportunity to get competitive, and most did.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: armaghniac on October 08, 2021, 08:41:39 PM
——-

Smaller counties like Wexford, Sligo, Tipperary and Fermanagh have shown the gap is somewhat surmountable when a handful of generational talents align. But there’s a chicken and egg in this for counties. If they haven’t hit the place of birth jackpot by unloading 2-3 highest quality players at once, then every game they play against the top 10-12 teams in Ireland is not going to end well. For those teams will be equally well conditioned and learned… but will have better players, simply because they’ve more players to pick from. When a cluster of generational talents comes along though, it’s very easy for county boards, clubs, money men and next rung down players to throw their weight behind. They know that some good can come from it.

Of course there are 10 counties with a decent population and concentration on football and they will generally beat the counties above. But beyond those 10 counties is one which will have better players simply because they’ve more players to pick from. And that is the biggest thing wrong with the championship. 
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 08, 2021, 09:12:31 PM
Why is Sid Wexford as reason to keep the current system? As someone who's parents live in Wexford they are the perfect example not to keep the current system.

Wexford football was successful not because of the competition structures, but because they lucked out with once in a generation talent in Matty Forde and a few other decent players.

Currently they're in Div 4 and no matter what coaching and money you throw at them the players aren't there and their only chance of progression is Plan B and playing games against teams of similar standard. Getting battered by the dubs (or another Leinster county) will do nothing for Wexford football next summer
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 08, 2021, 09:23:32 PM
Why is Sid Wexford as reason to keep the current system? As someone who's parents live in Wexford they are the perfect example not to keep the current system.

Wexford football was successful not because of the competition structures, but because they lucked out with once in a generation talent in Matty Forde and a few other decent players.

Currently they're in Div 4 and no matter what coaching and money you throw at them the players aren't there and their only chance of progression is Plan B and playing games against teams of similar standard. Getting battered by the dubs (or another Leinster county) will do nothing for Wexford football next summer

But which system are you talking about?

League or championship?

It's often said that weaker teams take the League more seriously. So how has this League system benefitted Wexford?

My take would be that good competition formats can't on their own make a team like Wexford good, but bad competition formats can certainly keep them bad.

And I think the current League format has definitely hindered them. There is no hope there, it has been destroyed.

So change the system. Change the League system.

Although - Wexford still gave Dublin a right rattle in this year's championship. Why should they have been denied that chance?

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 08, 2021, 11:22:22 PM
Wexford are a div 4 side. That's not due to funding or coaching, but a lack of talent. Under the current system they have no chance of winning a Leinster title never mind Sam. The only way they'll improve is playing more games against teams of a similar standard in the summer months rather than on bogs in Jan/Feb. The league is a positive for teams like Wexford as they get to play every week against a team of similar standard so they learn what their strengths and weaknesses are.

They could play the likes of the dubs every week for a year and learn nothing. Dublin are so far ahead of them they're not competing with them, they're just playing negative football to keep the scorelines respectful and that helps no one



However under plan B they'll be up against sides of similar standards so they have something to aim for come the championship in the summer rather than a beating in Leinster and then a pointless qualifier.

Why do you think the players from counties like Longford & Clare have come out in support of plan B?

They're the one's making the sacrifices training and if they are calling for Plan B who are we to criticize them?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 09, 2021, 12:14:55 AM
Wexford are a div 4 side. That's not due to funding or coaching, but a lack of talent. Under the current system they have no chance of winning a Leinster title never mind Sam. The only way they'll improve is playing more games against teams of a similar standard in the summer months rather than on bogs in Jan/Feb. The league is a positive for teams like Wexford as they get to play every week against a team of similar standard so they learn what their strengths and weaknesses are.

They could play the likes of the dubs every week for a year and learn nothing. Dublin are so far ahead of them they're not competing with them, they're just playing negative football to keep the scorelines respectful and that helps no one



However under plan B they'll be up against sides of similar standards so they have something to aim for come the championship in the summer rather than a beating in Leinster and then a pointless qualifier.

Why do you think the players from counties like Longford & Clare have come out in support of plan B?

They're the one's making the sacrifices training and if they are calling for Plan B who are we to criticize them?
Well I think with Wexford it is partly down to the county board very much refocussing on hurling as the main sport in recent years and effectively forgetting about football. That sort of stuff filters down. Being stuck in Division 4 doesn't help that. In the old League system, every county was at worst one good campaign away from getting promoted to Division 1A or 1B. Whereas Division 4 is a very lonely place to be, the road back is long, and teams at a higher level are much harder to catch up with because they have the benefit of several years higher standard football under their belts. It's a much longer road back than before.

With respect to their efforts, I don't think players are the best judges of what will make a good championship for the paying public, which will keep the championship at the centre of Irish life. It's the paying public which matters most here and maximising public attention.

I mean Declan Browne may have considered winning the Tommy Murphy Cup in 2005 as a career highlight. But nobody else cared.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 09, 2021, 12:18:00 AM
if the league was seen as very important or par with the all ireland then you could get away with a 32 team open knockout basically you would have two versions of the all Ireland and if you win both competitions you would be seen as the undisputed champions.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 09, 2021, 12:19:51 AM
If proposal B does go through, then the 6th place in Division 1 will feel hard done by, not bad enough to be relegated, not good enough for Sam and too good for Tailteann Cup.

the way i see it its  up to them to win their games
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 09, 2021, 12:21:51 AM
if a division 4 team gets to quarter final but then  gets a  hammering  will that be seen as a a success
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 09, 2021, 03:16:22 AM
i thought ulster had a reputation if being big strong tough guys up for the challenge so why are they moaning that the ulster championship might be played in slightly colder weather and a bit of mud.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 09, 2021, 03:18:31 AM
we might get some ulster games in the snow if played early enough in march tyrone v donegal in the snow under lights
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 09, 2021, 07:11:34 AM
If proposal B does go through, then the 6th place in Division 1 will feel hard done by, not bad enough to be relegated, not good enough for Sam and too good for Tailteann Cup.

the way i see it its  up to them to win their games

Talk about stating the bleedin' obvious. ;D Imagine 6th loses out on scoring difference of one point to 5th, it'd be a right kick in the teeth to them to have no more games until the following January or February.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 09, 2021, 08:57:26 AM
8 of the top 16 will be in that boat.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 09, 2021, 09:13:18 AM
8 of the top 16 will be in that boat.

Yes indeed and while I hope Andy Moran can guide Leitrim to a Division 4 title, would the championship proper be better off if let's say Galway and Roscommon finish 2nd and 3rd respectively in Division 2 and end up playing them and giving them a hiding?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 09, 2021, 01:30:36 PM
I'd say the Tailteann Counties were looking to be not totally excluded from the race for Sam.
Is the Uachtarán against the Proposals?
He's very silent on the whole issue.
Is he sitting on the fence and let the membership/Counties decide or is he against but doesn't want to pull the rug from under the Review Committee who came up with the proposals?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 09, 2021, 01:37:46 PM
Mr. Uachtarán represents New York.

Proposal B means the annual jolly to New York for Connacht teams will end.

No more Mayo supporters filling Times Square.

I suppose they'll still have the 2047 All-Ireland final to look forward to.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Blowitupref on October 09, 2021, 04:01:24 PM
Mr. Uachtarán represents New York.

Proposal B means the annual jolly to New York for Connacht teams will end.

No more Mayo supporters filling Times Square.

I suppose they'll still have the 2047 All-Ireland final to look forward to.

I think New York in Connacht championship was over once the B All-Ireland was voted back in. They'll play in the Tailteann Cup now instead of Connacht.

Still trips to London for the Connacht teams but February, March for a group pre season game doesn't have the same appeal as a championship match in May or June
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dec on October 09, 2021, 06:42:54 PM
If proposal B does go through, then the 6th place in Division 1 will feel hard done by, not bad enough to be relegated, not good enough for Sam and too good for Tailteann Cup.

the way i see it its  up to them to win their games

Talk about stating the bleedin' obvious. ;D Imagine 6th loses out on scoring difference of one point to 5th, it'd be a right kick in the teeth to them to have no more games until the following January or February.

Imagine a team loses a championship game by one point, it'd be a right kick in the teeth to them to have no more games until the following January or February.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 09, 2021, 07:05:03 PM
If proposal B does go through, then the 6th place in Division 1 will feel hard done by, not bad enough to be relegated, not good enough for Sam and too good for Tailteann Cup.

the way i see it its  up to them to win their games

Talk about stating the bleedin' obvious. ;D Imagine 6th loses out on scoring difference of one point to 5th, it'd be a right kick in the teeth to them to have no more games until the following January or February.

Imagine a team loses a championship game by one point, it'd be a right kick in the teeth to them to have no more games until the following January or February.

Wouldn't it just.  ;D
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 09, 2021, 07:14:42 PM
There is an odd belief among some that it’s possible to make sport equitable and fair.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 09, 2021, 08:02:08 PM
There is an odd belief among some that it’s possible to make sport equitable and fair.
Sport is inherently unfair.

The point is, you want to amplify that unfairness.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 09, 2021, 08:15:57 PM
Ah I don’t. I really don’t.

Given the opportunity I’d move swiftly to limit mileage, food and any other expenses a county team can claim for. I’d force counties to maintain a maximum panel of 32, in which players can come and go but only 32 are insured at any given time. I would force county boards to declare how their private sponsorship is utilised, and pay a man to forensically investigate their books. I’d give weaker counties (D3 and D4) the financial backing to employ a full time senior football trainer (not a manager), whose job would be to draft and monitor strength, conditioning, and nutrition for the 32x players in the u20 and senior panels, all year round.

But one thing I wouldn’t do is make up fairy stories that the gap between player rich, cash rich, culturally football counties, can be easily bridged by applying archaic and convoluted competition structures that throw the Christians in with the lions, and then blame the lions after the massacre.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: armaghniac on October 09, 2021, 11:02:42 PM
Ah I don’t. I really don’t.

Given the opportunity I’d move swiftly to limit mileage, food and any other expenses a county team can claim for. I’d force counties to maintain a maximum panel of 32, in which players can come and go but only 32 are insured at any given time. I would force county boards to declare how their private sponsorship is utilised, and pay a man to forensically investigate their books. I’d give weaker counties (D3 and D4) the financial backing to employ a full time senior football trainer (not a manager), whose job would be to draft and monitor strength, conditioning, and nutrition for the 32x players in the u20 and senior panels, all year round.

But one thing I wouldn’t do is make up fairy stories that the gap between player rich, cash rich, culturally football counties, can be easily bridged by applying archaic and convoluted competition structures that throw the Christians in with the lions, and then blame the lions after the massacre.

Hard to disagree with any of that.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Louther on October 09, 2021, 11:26:47 PM
Ah I don’t. I really don’t.

Given the opportunity I’d move swiftly to limit mileage, food and any other expenses a county team can claim for. I’d force counties to maintain a maximum panel of 32, in which players can come and go but only 32 are insured at any given time. I would force county boards to declare how their private sponsorship is utilised, and pay a man to forensically investigate their books. I’d give weaker counties (D3 and D4) the financial backing to employ a full time senior football trainer (not a manager), whose job would be to draft and monitor strength, conditioning, and nutrition for the 32x players in the u20 and senior panels, all year round.

But one thing I wouldn’t do is make up fairy stories that the gap between player rich, cash rich, culturally football counties, can be easily bridged by applying archaic and convoluted competition structures that throw the Christians in with the lions, and then blame the lions after the massacre.

+1
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 09, 2021, 11:43:06 PM


But one thing I wouldn’t do is make up fairy stories that the gap between player rich, cash rich, culturally football counties, can be easily bridged by applying archaic and convoluted competition structures that throw the Christians in with the lions, and then blame the lions after the massacre.
Looks like you just debate against fairy stories you have imagined.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 10, 2021, 09:47:23 PM
I reckon neither A nor B will get enough support to pass and we'll have another Super 8s in 2022.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: rodney trotter on October 10, 2021, 09:50:43 PM
The Super 8s is being pulled regardless of how the Vote goes.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 11, 2021, 09:29:24 AM
The Super 8s is being pulled regardless of how the Vote goes.

Great to hear. I just thought that they were continuing with year three of the experiment that got cancelled due to Covid.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 13, 2021, 09:25:02 AM
are otb am  blowing their load already on proposal b are they overestimating the amount bandwagon casual fans that only care about semi finals and finals they are saying we are going to see people loads of cars and motorcades with flags flying driving into towns every weekend.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: tiempo on October 13, 2021, 09:48:11 AM
are otb am  blowing their load already on proposal b are they overestimating the amount bandwagon casual fans that only care about semi finals and finals they are saying we are going to see people loads of cars and motorcades with flags flying driving into towns every weekend.

Majorly blowing their load in an attempt to stay relevant in the off season

Do those gents have a vote or are they active at committee level within clubs, counties, provincial, national?

I suspect not, its their prerogative to keep the conversation going, fair enough, but a bit more balance would be nice as they are in the position of never being wrong and never having to implement any of the outworkings of any decision, a bit more respect to the success and relevance of the provincial model would be nice

A fan of a tweaked plan b myself, suppose everyone has a tweak they'd like to see, from that point of view there'll never be an outcome that comes close to keeping everyone happy
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 13, 2021, 09:59:26 AM
General feeling seems to be that A won't get much support, that B won't make the 60% and the 4Cs recommendation of the 2017 system with Tommytailteann will be adopted.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 13, 2021, 11:12:54 AM
Proposal B to me has only one advantage.

But paradoxically, none of its advocates seem to have realised this one advantage.

It would remove the need for a split season.

Because you have certainty about fixtures, and thus you can time club windows in the same way that association football currently has an international window.

But pretty much all advocates of Proposal B are also advocates of the split season.

If you have certainty about fixtures, what is the point of then having a split season?

As it is, Proposal B just shoehorns a load of uncompetitive football into April and May, months when people are much less likely to make late decisions to go games than they are in the June to August period.

And Proposal B will live or die by attendances.


 
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 13, 2021, 11:36:26 AM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/1012/1253361-league-based-all-ireland-potentially-worth-10m-to-gaa/
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Louther on October 13, 2021, 12:05:38 PM
Proposal B to me has only one advantage.

But paradoxically, none of its advocates seem to have realised this one advantage.

It would remove the need for a split season.

Because you have certainty about fixtures, and thus you can time club windows in the same way that association football currently has an international window.

But pretty much all advocates of Proposal B are also advocates of the split season.

If you have certainty about fixtures, what is the point of then having a split season?

As it is, Proposal B just shoehorns a load of uncompetitive football into April and May, months when people are much less likely to make late decisions to go games than they are in the June to August period.

And Proposal B will live or die by attendances.

I’d hope the split season stays and is incorporated into Plan B. This month for clubs between Intercounty competitions never works to any useful extent.

There isn’t much between April/May in terms of weather. It’s generally fine for football.

What you will lose in people not attending because of weather you will also lose in June/July with people on holidays, exams, wedding etc. There never a time that will suit everyone nor can there be. In April and May people are generally very keen to get out and about again.

Focus should be on getting people to attend not give them reasons not to.

Offaly have joined Sligo in backing Plan B after the my consulted their players and mgt.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 13, 2021, 12:20:43 PM


What you will lose in people not attending because of weather you will also lose in June/July with people on holidays, exams, wedding etc. There never a time that will suit everyone nor can there be. In April and May people are generally very keen to get out and about again.
The peak summer months are always much more conducive to big attendances than April or May are. I honestly don't know how anybody could argue otherwise.

In terms of exams, it doesn't get much worse in terms of them affecting inter-county football than April/May.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Louther on October 13, 2021, 01:35:33 PM


What you will lose in people not attending because of weather you will also lose in June/July with people on holidays, exams, wedding etc. There never a time that will suit everyone nor can there be. In April and May people are generally very keen to get out and about again.
The peak summer months are always much more conducive to big attendances than April or May are. I honestly don't know how anybody could argue otherwise.

In terms of exams, it doesn't get much worse in terms of them affecting inter-county football than April/May.

People attend for the game not due to weather or it been peak summer. Six Nations and European club rugby have never suffered cause of the time of year it’s played. Premier league avoids this peak summer and play through the winter, doesn’t affect them.
This new structure is primarily aimed at getting competitive games and the best teams playing each other and other teams playing at their own level. That will drive people to the games. Not long ago Cavan played a 3rd string Dublin team in opening round of the league in Cavan, place was full and they literally opened gates to get people in. Was a fine spring day - they happen too! People attended because it was a big game.

In January 2020 over 40,000 went to Dublin V Kerry in Croke Park. January. Imagine that as a league championship game. In 2017 over 50,000 went to the league final between the two teams.

Big games will draw the crowds once promoted and that’s for new provincial championship or new league.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 13, 2021, 01:48:34 PM
No matter what the outcome in Congress with an AI Final on 17th July an awful lot of games will have to be held in April/May.
E.G if we end up with the 2017 system
17th July AIF
2/3 July AISFs
18/19 June AI Qtr Fs
4/5 June Round involving Provincial losing Finalists.
20/21 May Provincial Finals plus Qualifier Round.
6/7 May Provincial SFs.
April - Provincial prelims and Qtr Finals.
Add in Hurley stuff plus Minors, u20s....
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Armagh18 on October 13, 2021, 01:52:11 PM
https://www.facebook.com/607517496033685/posts/4460206047431458/?d=n

All about the money
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 13, 2021, 02:44:03 PM
https://www.facebook.com/607517496033685/posts/4460206047431458/?d=n

All about the money
Not a hope will Pre season provincial leagues played in February and March will get that type revenue however the objective here is to pull the wool over the eyes of the provincial chiefs.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 13, 2021, 02:44:24 PM
https://www.facebook.com/607517496033685/posts/4460206047431458/?d=n

All about the money

Would turnover not be a barometer of popularity?

I mean it’s not like there’s going to be any more games played over a season if B passes.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Cunny Funt on October 13, 2021, 03:07:03 PM
No matter what the outcome in Congress with an AI Final on 17th July an awful lot of games will have to be held in April/May.
E.G if we end up with the 2017 system
17th July AIF
2/3 July AISFs
18/19 June AI Qtr Fs
4/5 June Round involving Provincial losing Finalists.
20/21 May Provincial Finals plus Qualifier Round.
6/7 May Provincial SFs.
April - Provincial prelims and Qtr Finals.
Add in Hurley stuff plus Minors, u20s....

Yes and the main commentary especially from the GPA is that every county will get a number of games played in the height of the summer if Proposal B gets the nod.

In reality for  3 teams in Div 1, 5 in Div 2 how many games will be played in June?  For 15 teams (7 in Div 3,4 and New York) will go into the Tailteann Cup with half of that number out after one game again how many of those teams that make their exit will get the chance to play in the height of the summer?

For me proposal B would work better if the 6 month window was April to September but they can't do that now with a split season already voted in.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Derry Optimist on October 13, 2021, 04:53:23 PM
When the GAA had major proposals in the form of a Motion at Congress which they wanted to introduce  as future policy, in the past, they always had an intensive marketing campaign  in the media and top personalities went round each county explaining the pros of the motions. However, in the case of the current Proposals for the adoption of new Championship structures there has been a huge absence  in this regard.

If the GAA  really wanted to pass one of their motions re the new Championship proposals would they have held the Special Congress the day after the new attendance restrictions at public events were lifted? Could they not  have  waited another month so that every County Board could have a full attendance in person of all their delegates while at the same time  top GAA officials from the Review Body could address each County Board to present their case?

Further, to the best of my knowledge there has been no mention of the Proposals in public of any substance by any top official except by one Provincial CEO who is totally against  both motions. One can say that he at least had the honesty of his convictions but the great unanswered question is does he represent the universal view of all the voting delegates from all the counties in his province? What deductions can we take from the fact that the President or any other of the Provincial chiefs have said nothing? Are they fair to the members of the Review Body or anyone who made depositions to it?Do they want the players in at least 25 counties just to keep slogging away four days a week, thirty weeks a year training without any chance of  any silverware?

The  players, whom the Association claim are the most important people in all of this, were not even allowed through their rep, Tom Parsons, to present their case at Central Council.This, despite the fact that their members voted overwhelming in favour of Proposal B.This whole scenario is an awful indictment of the lack of respect that we show our players who train so hard and so long to provide us with so much enjoyment and entertainment.

If this official attitude does not change many of our players in all of our counties except the top four or five will give up playing at county level.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Blowitupref on October 13, 2021, 05:08:34 PM

 What deductions can we take from the fact that the President or any other of the Provincial chiefs have said nothing?

Connacht GAA chief John Prenty has spoken out.

In regards to the President he said it wouldn’t be appropriate for a member of the task force to speak out in favour of either proposal ahead of the vote.

“I was on the fixtures review committee that proposed both motions and didn’t put any favouritism towards one or the other,” he stated.

“So I think it would be inappropriate for me to be what the feeling is because I’ve got to stay neutral in this because of the fact I was on the committee.”
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 13, 2021, 06:10:23 PM
If the GAA  really wanted to pass one of their motions re the new Championship proposals would they have held the Special Congress the day after the new attendance restrictions at public events were lifted? Could they not  have  waited another month so that every County Board could have a full attendance in person of all their delegates while at the same time  top GAA officials from the Review Body could address each County Board to present their case?

To be honest , would it matter? Do county delegates vote for what they personally want? Or do they vote what was decided by the votes of  the county board/clubs/membership etc?

Until we get transparency at Congress , we  will never know.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dec on October 13, 2021, 07:43:10 PM
https://www.the42.ie/gaa-structures-5573413-Oct2021/

Quote
"THE GAA WOULD potentially earn an additional €10m in gate receipts alone if ‘Proposal B’ is voted into fruition at Special Congress later this month."
...
"And a report by former Meath minor football manager Conor O’Donoghue, a member of the national calendar fixtures task-force who runs a financial services company, has outlined the likelihood that Proposal B and its additional games would potentially be worth €10m to the GAA.

O’Donoghue forecasts that, firstly, almost €8m in additional revenue would be accrued by Central Council through the extra fixtures that would fall under its remit; and that secondly, a January-to-April provincial competition would be worth €2m more to the provinces than existing structures. (The four provincial councils are, however, understood to be majorly opposed to Proposal B due to what they perceive to be the dilution of the provincial championships).

O’Donoghue based his analysis on the two Super 8 seasons pre-Covid."

Assuming that crowds will be similar for a league format as they are for a knock-out format is foolish

There will not be as many Armagh supporters travelling to Kerry or Mayo as there would be for a game against Down or Tyrone.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 13, 2021, 07:47:20 PM
Yes but assuming a national league match would register the same interest as an all Ireland league match, would be at least equally foolish.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 13, 2021, 08:15:51 PM
No matter what the outcome in Congress with an AI Final on 17th July an awful lot of games will have to be held in April/May.
E.G if we end up with the 2017 system
17th July AIF
2/3 July AISFs
18/19 June AI Qtr Fs
4/5 June Round involving Provincial losing Finalists.
20/21 May Provincial Finals plus Qualifier Round.
6/7 May Provincial SFs.
April - Provincial prelims and Qtr Finals.
Add in Hurley stuff plus Minors, u20s....

This more than likely will be the outcome in my opinion. But if Proposal B does go through, what dates will the games be played? Will the provinces have varying dates for their own standalone competitions?

Likewise Proposal A, anybody got the dates for the games under this proposal?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Blowitupref on October 13, 2021, 08:45:30 PM
No matter what the outcome in Congress with an AI Final on 17th July an awful lot of games will have to be held in April/May.
E.G if we end up with the 2017 system
17th July AIF
2/3 July AISFs
18/19 June AI Qtr Fs
4/5 June Round involving Provincial losing Finalists.
20/21 May Provincial Finals plus Qualifier Round.
6/7 May Provincial SFs.
April - Provincial prelims and Qtr Finals.
Add in Hurley stuff plus Minors, u20s....

This more than likely will be the outcome in my opinion. But if Proposal B does go through, what dates will the games be played? Will the provinces have varying dates for their own standalone competitions?

Likewise Proposal A, anybody got the dates for the games under this proposal?

For proposal B the Provincial pre season league competitions would be played in February and March in every province.

The seven game league/championship starts in April. Play offs for the 3rd,4th best in Div 2 v Div 3,4 winners played in June along with All Ireland quarter finals. The All-Ireland final will be played July 16th/17th regardless of what format we have next year.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: rodney trotter on October 13, 2021, 09:10:55 PM
No matter what the outcome in Congress with an AI Final on 17th July an awful lot of games will have to be held in April/May.
E.G if we end up with the 2017 system
17th July AIF
2/3 July AISFs
18/19 June AI Qtr Fs
4/5 June Round involving Provincial losing Finalists.
20/21 May Provincial Finals plus Qualifier Round.
6/7 May Provincial SFs.
April - Provincial prelims and Qtr Finals.
Add in Hurley stuff plus Minors, u20s....

This more than likely will be the outcome in my opinion. But if Proposal B does go through, what dates will the games be played? Will the provinces have varying dates for their own standalone competitions?

Likewise Proposal A, anybody got the dates for the games under this proposal?

It was explained well enough from Parsons of the GPA https://t.co/VOWcOzhdxP?amp=1
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Itchy on October 14, 2021, 09:02:36 AM
No matter what the outcome in Congress with an AI Final on 17th July an awful lot of games will have to be held in April/May.
E.G if we end up with the 2017 system
17th July AIF
2/3 July AISFs
18/19 June AI Qtr Fs
4/5 June Round involving Provincial losing Finalists.
20/21 May Provincial Finals plus Qualifier Round.
6/7 May Provincial SFs.
April - Provincial prelims and Qtr Finals.
Add in Hurley stuff plus Minors, u20s....

This more than likely will be the outcome in my opinion. But if Proposal B does go through, what dates will the games be played? Will the provinces have varying dates for their own standalone competitions?

Likewise Proposal A, anybody got the dates for the games under this proposal?

It was explained well enough from Parsons of the GPA https://t.co/VOWcOzhdxP?amp=1

That's a good summary. Are there similar links for the other options?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 14, 2021, 09:36:14 AM
It looks like the "Top table" has decided to let the Review Committee put up the 2 motions and are having no hand, act or part in it.
Seems a strange way to do business.
I'd have thought they'd have sent the 2 proposals around the Counties to see what support existed for either or what tweaks, amendments etc might garner support.
And then CC put up the motion on a final system.
Ah sure lookit......


PS Farr, if B passes the League/Championship is proposed to start weekend 9/10 April.
Probably last round Robin games 28/5 or 4/6.?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 14, 2021, 09:46:24 AM


What you will lose in people not attending because of weather you will also lose in June/July with people on holidays, exams, wedding etc. There never a time that will suit everyone nor can there be. In April and May people are generally very keen to get out and about again.
The peak summer months are always much more conducive to big attendances than April or May are. I honestly don't know how anybody could argue otherwise.

In terms of exams, it doesn't get much worse in terms of them affecting inter-county football than April/May.

People attend for the game not due to weather or it been peak summer. Six Nations and European club rugby have never suffered cause of the time of year it’s played. Premier league avoids this peak summer and play through the winter, doesn’t affect them.
This new structure is primarily aimed at getting competitive games and the best teams playing each other and other teams playing at their own level. That will drive people to the games. Not long ago Cavan played a 3rd string Dublin team in opening round of the league in Cavan, place was full and they literally opened gates to get people in. Was a fine spring day - they happen too! People attended because it was a big game.

In January 2020 over 40,000 went to Dublin V Kerry in Croke Park. January. Imagine that as a league championship game. In 2017 over 50,000 went to the league final between the two teams.

Big games will draw the crowds once promoted and that’s for new provincial championship or new league.

The Six Nations is the most important rugby competition of the year. It's rugby's equivalent of All-Ireland finals in terms of importance.

The Premier League is the world's league.

Dublin v Kerry 2020 was an exception to the rule. A rematch of the five in a row All-Ireland final of four months previous. It was the first match of the NFL, ie. the first match since that All-Ireland. It was an unseasonably fine night. Cavan v Dublin that time was the first match of the year, again in unseasonably fine conditions.. I can name other exceptions too. Dublin v Tyrone 2007 and 2009, Dublin v Kerry in the 2016 NFL final.

They're exceptions.


But nobody remembers Cavan v Dublin played on a pissing wet Saturday night in Breffni or Dublin playing Derry on a pissing wet Saturday night in Croke Park. Or the dirges of Dublin-Mayo NFL matches of 2017 and 2019. How many people were there when Tyrone beat Dublin in 2020? Or when Dublin played Monaghan in 2020?

And how many would be there if ticket prices were 50-60% dearer than for the NFL, as they surely would be? And with no free primary school tickets, as there usually is for Dublin's NFL home matches?



Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 14, 2021, 09:32:10 PM
why dont rte show friday night or early saturday afternoon games for divsion 3 and 4 if proposal b happens to give them exposure try and pick the most important game of the week in those leagues.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 14, 2021, 09:33:09 PM
will there be divsional finals maybe divsion 3 and 4 can have a finals so the act as extra knockout game that could be showing on rte
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Milltown Row2 on October 14, 2021, 09:38:39 PM
why dont rte show friday night or early saturday afternoon games for divsion 3 and 4 if proposal b happens to give them exposure try and pick the most important game of the week in those leagues.

So players/coaches/supporters of counties should travel on a Friday night 100+ miles after work to a game and another 100+ and get home after midnight? To satisfy who?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 14, 2021, 09:43:43 PM
They can choose game that are close
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: rodney trotter on October 14, 2021, 09:46:55 PM
Friday night would only work if it was local Derby teams playing against each other.  Dublin and Kildare or Monaghan and Armagh. Even then there might be compilations with work.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 14, 2021, 09:49:20 PM
why dont rte show friday night or early saturday afternoon games for divsion 3 and 4 if proposal b happens to give them exposure try and pick the most important game of the week in those leagues.

So players/coaches/supporters of counties should travel on a Friday night 100+ miles after work to a game and another 100+ and get home after midnight? To satisfy who?

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that there’ll be 1-2 Friday night games every week. Just a bit of commonsense needs shown. Run through each the fixtures. If the county grounds of those involved are more than 50km apart, rule it out. And if none meet that criteria, then there’s no Friday night game that week. Pick a match or two from what’s left.

Don’t try to tell me the players, supporters and media wouldn’t get a tremendous lift from a standalone prime time a lot on national tv. Especially a D4 or D3 county.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Milltown Row2 on October 14, 2021, 10:20:48 PM
why dont rte show friday night or early saturday afternoon games for divsion 3 and 4 if proposal b happens to give them exposure try and pick the most important game of the week in those leagues.

So players/coaches/supporters of counties should travel on a Friday night 100+ miles after work to a game and another 100+ and get home after midnight? To satisfy who?

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that there’ll be 1-2 Friday night games every week. Just a bit of commonsense needs shown. Run through each the fixtures. If the county grounds of those involved are more than 50km apart, rule it out. And if none meet that criteria, then there’s no Friday night game that week. Pick a match or two from what’s left.

Don’t try to tell me the players, supporters and media wouldn’t get a tremendous lift from a standalone prime time a lot on national tv. Especially a D4 or D3 county.

So let’s get this straight, teams prepare a good hour before the games nowadays, good pre match meal then head off to somewhere 50 + miles, to play under lights possibly depending on time of year, for what? And as supporters they give up their time also?

So I’m working on a building site till five on a Friday then prep for a game at county level.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 14, 2021, 10:24:01 PM
Friday night would only work if it was local Derby teams playing against each other.  Dublin and Kildare or Monaghan and Armagh. Even then there might be compilations with work.
The GAA scheduled Dublin v Kildare in the 2013 NFL for a Friday night at Croke Park. Kildare refused to play on the Friday and it was moved to the Sunday, which turned out to be probably the coldest day of the entire year. I didn't go. Liverpool and Spurs on the box looked more attractive as a spectacle and was more attractive as a spectacle.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 14, 2021, 10:25:39 PM
MR2 there’s club championship games being played midweek all across Ireland at the minute. Often in grounds an hour away from home.

The prep is the same. The travel is the same. The floodlights are the same. And pro rata the stakes are the same.

If it’s 1-2 times a year everyone gets on board with it.

Honestly think you’re overplaying this one.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Milltown Row2 on October 14, 2021, 10:33:52 PM
MR2 there’s club championship games being played midweek all across Ireland at the minute. Often in grounds an hour away from home.

The prep is the same. The travel is the same. The floodlights are the same. And pro rata the stakes are the same.

If it’s 1-2 times a year everyone gets on board with it.

Honestly think you’re overplaying this one.

County and club is different. County league and club league different as is championship also different, they ain’t players all from one side of the county, they possibly 60/70 miles away from a meeting point to head another 50/60 miles?

Look it’s my view if you think it’s viable the crack on
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 14, 2021, 10:33:55 PM
Friday night would only work if it was local Derby teams playing against each other.  Dublin and Kildare or Monaghan and Armagh. Even then there might be compilations with work.
The GAA scheduled Dublin v Kildare in the 2013 NFL for a Friday night at Croke Park. Kildare refused to play on the Friday and it was moved to the Sunday, which turned out to be probably the coldest day of the entire year. I didn't go. Liverpool and Spurs on the box looked more attractive as a spectacle and was more attractive as a spectacle.

I remember being at the Armagh Down NFL match on a Friday night a few seasons back. Never was as cold at a match in me life. And Down won with a late goal to round  off a great  night!!
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 14, 2021, 10:37:44 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/1012/1253361-league-based-all-ireland-potentially-worth-10m-to-gaa/

Goodbye Proposal B, and good riddance.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40721610.html

GAA finance department dismiss claim 'Proposal B' is the lucrative option for championship reform

Inflated attendance claims and not accounting for juvenile tickets in the calendar review taskforce model was cited for the counterclaim
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 14, 2021, 10:43:41 PM
MR2 there’s club championship games being played midweek all across Ireland at the minute. Often in grounds an hour away from home.

The prep is the same. The travel is the same. The floodlights are the same. And pro rata the stakes are the same.

If it’s 1-2 times a year everyone gets on board with it.

Honestly think you’re overplaying this one.

County and club is different. County league and club league different as is championship also different, they ain’t players all from one side of the county, they possibly 60/70 miles away from a meeting point to head another 50/60 miles?

Look it’s my view if you think it’s viable the crack on

I’m just trying to open the eyes a bit wider.

Most of Co Armagh is closer to Newry than half of Co Down is. Half of Tyrone is close to Ballybofey the. half of Donegal is. It’s a situation that has to be replicated in half the counties of Ireland. Travel times for neighbouring counties for a Friday night game won’t be an issue.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 14, 2021, 10:51:30 PM
Here’s a question

If proposal B is passed, which basically makes provincials irrelevant,  what would be the point of building Casement?

Some might say what’s  the point of building it anyway? But you know what I mean. Casement will likely hold Ulster finals. So if the ulster championship becomes a meaningless pre season competition likethe McKenna cup, it could be played in the moy or somewhere, for all that’s going to attend.

Antrim are unlikely to fill Casement, so if the Ulster championship  becomes as dead as the emu, why build Casement?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Milltown Row2 on October 14, 2021, 10:52:09 PM
Like said if people think it’s a good idea then crack on, I did the games at Croke one Saturday night, Dubs were playing a hurling football doubleheader, great night and was lucky enough to get the tickets from a great aul poster on here, Budweiser, but it was a Saturday.

If I lived in Ballycastle and was part of the county team and we were playing Dublin senior hurling, 7.30 throw in, what time would I need to be heading to a game at? Now remember I’m working till 5
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 14, 2021, 11:03:21 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/1012/1253361-league-based-all-ireland-potentially-worth-10m-to-gaa/

Goodbye Proposal B, and good riddance.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40721610.html

GAA finance department dismiss claim 'Proposal B' is the lucrative option for championship reform

Inflated attendance claims and not accounting for juvenile tickets in the calendar review taskforce model was cited for the counterclaim

Make you wonder what Conor O'Donoghue was at.  Inflated attendance claims certainly as I said at the time not hope would Pre season provincial leagues played in February and March will get that type revenue.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 15, 2021, 12:11:19 AM
Friday night would only work if it was local Derby teams playing against each other.  Dublin and Kildare or Monaghan and Armagh. Even then there might be compilations with work.
The GAA scheduled Dublin v Kildare in the 2013 NFL for a Friday night at Croke Park. Kildare refused to play on the Friday and it was moved to the Sunday, which turned out to be probably the coldest day of the entire year. I didn't go. Liverpool and Spurs on the box looked more attractive as a spectacle and was more attractive as a spectacle.
What a great GAA man!!! ::)
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Armagh18 on October 15, 2021, 07:27:00 AM
why dont rte show friday night or early saturday afternoon games for divsion 3 and 4 if proposal b happens to give them exposure try and pick the most important game of the week in those leagues.

So players/coaches/supporters of counties should travel on a Friday night 100+ miles after work to a game and another 100+ and get home after midnight? To satisfy who?

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that there’ll be 1-2 Friday night games every week. Just a bit of commonsense needs shown. Run through each the fixtures. If the county grounds of those involved are more than 50km apart, rule it out. And if none meet that criteria, then there’s no Friday night game that week. Pick a match or two from what’s left.

Don’t try to tell me the players, supporters and media wouldn’t get a tremendous lift from a standalone prime time a lot on national tv. Especially a D4 or D3 county.

So let’s get this straight, teams prepare a good hour before the games nowadays, good pre match meal then head off to somewhere 50 + miles, to play under lights possibly depending on time of year, for what? And as supporters they give up their time also?

So I’m working on a building site till five on a Friday then prep for a game at county level.
There’s not too many lads working on building sites playing county and theres not too many lads that’ll be on site to 5 especially on a Friday but I get what you’re saying.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: 6th sam on October 15, 2021, 07:32:10 AM
Like said if people think it’s a good idea then crack on, I did the games at Croke one Saturday night, Dubs were playing a hurling football doubleheader, great night and was lucky enough to get the tickets from a great aul poster on here, Budweiser, but it was a Saturday.

If I lived in Ballycastle and was part of the county team and we were playing Dublin senior hurling, 7.30 throw in, what time would I need to be heading to a game at? Now remember I’m working till 5

Soccer matches (at least semi-pro Tbf) have been played on Friday nights for years. McKenna cup games have been played midweek for years. I have several friends work on building sites , but all finish early in a Friday . Our club have had to travel to far end of the county for 7pm games for years. 8pm start for selected ““local games” is very doable and very attractive. As there would be advanced notice a player could take leave on the Friday afternoon. For such one-off high profile games, most  employers would be amenable to this. I imagine the GPA would negotiate appropriate redress to avoid discrimination of players .  The promotional benefit of FNF is too good an opportunity to continue missing out on . The GAA had several grounds around the country under-utilised , let’s play more county games in a condensed season, and the extra revenue can be ploughed into grassroots . The  casement scenario mentioned above is relevant…invest in giving Antrim a scaled down replacement of casement(which was rarely filled) , and plough the rest of the money into grassroots in Ulster ( which the IFA did). A glamorous more lucrative county game should become a cash cow for grassroots development IMHO. This split season , and fairer merit-based Intercounty game, could bring us to a new level: inter-county and club . Bring it on!
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: rodney trotter on October 15, 2021, 07:22:46 PM
Down Hurling manager not impressed with Brian McAvoys comments on proposal B.

“This is a man who has presided over the fact that there is no Ulster hurling championship for minors, U20s or for seniors,” said Sheehan.

“Ulster have abdicated their responsibility for hurling promotion to Leinster, and I would like to go very publicly on record to thank Leinster for giving my own young hurlers at U20 the opportunity to play in the Leinster Championship because their own province doesn’t deem them worthy of having one

https://t.co/EoWHuTV63C?amp=1

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on October 15, 2021, 07:25:03 PM
Down Hurling manager not impressed with Brian McAvoys comments on proposal B.

“This is a man who has presided over the fact that there is no Ulster hurling championship for minors, U20s or for seniors,” said Sheehan.

“Ulster have abdicated their responsibility for hurling promotion to Leinster, and I would like to go very publicly on record to thank Leinster for giving my own young hurlers at U20 the opportunity to play in the Leinster Championship because their own province doesn’t deem them worthy of having one

https://t.co/EoWHuTV63C?amp=1

Bravo
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 15, 2021, 07:27:23 PM
hurling needs to ditch provincials more than football or  have them as pre season when galway and antrim can play in leinster it makes mockery of provincial anyway.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Milltown Row2 on October 15, 2021, 07:32:07 PM
Like said if people think it’s a good idea then crack on, I did the games at Croke one Saturday night, Dubs were playing a hurling football doubleheader, great night and was lucky enough to get the tickets from a great aul poster on here, Budweiser, but it was a Saturday.

If I lived in Ballycastle and was part of the county team and we were playing Dublin senior hurling, 7.30 throw in, what time would I need to be heading to a game at? Now remember I’m working till 5

Soccer matches (at least semi-pro Tbf) have been played on Friday nights for years. McKenna cup games have been played midweek for years. I have several friends work on building sites , but all finish early in a Friday . Our club have had to travel to far end of the county for 7pm games for years. 8pm start for selected ““local games” is very doable and very attractive. As there would be advanced notice a player could take leave on the Friday afternoon. For such one-off high profile games, most  employers would be amenable to this. I imagine the GPA would negotiate appropriate redress to avoid discrimination of players .  The promotional benefit of FNF is too good an opportunity to continue missing out on . The GAA had several grounds around the country under-utilised , let’s play more county games in a condensed season, and the extra revenue can be ploughed into grassroots . The  casement scenario mentioned above is relevant…invest in giving Antrim a scaled down replacement of casement(which was rarely filled) , and plough the rest of the money into grassroots in Ulster ( which the IFA did). A glamorous more lucrative county game should become a cash cow for grassroots development IMHO. This split season , and fairer merit-based Intercounty game, could bring us to a new level: inter-county and club . Bring it on!

Like I said if players and county managers are happy with it then carry on, I personally as a supporter wouldn’t want to finish work at five and head off 60+ miles on a Friday night. Why not have it at 3pm on a Saturday like soccer?

I know from personal experience as a player/manager of club that we’d better performances when not heading 60 miles to a game during the dark nights..
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on October 15, 2021, 10:00:35 PM
hurling needs to ditch provincials more than football or  have them as pre season when galway and antrim can play in leinster it makes mockery of provincial anyway.

The point is McAvoy is happy to sit back and watch hurling die and give little or no help.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: 6th sam on October 15, 2021, 10:25:45 PM
Like said if people think it’s a good idea then crack on, I did the games at Croke one Saturday night, Dubs were playing a hurling football doubleheader, great night and was lucky enough to get the tickets from a great aul poster on here, Budweiser, but it was a Saturday.

If I lived in Ballycastle and was part of the county team and we were playing Dublin senior hurling, 7.30 throw in, what time would I need to be heading to a game at? Now remember I’m working till 5

Soccer matches (at least semi-pro Tbf) have been played on Friday nights for years. McKenna cup games have been played midweek for years. I have several friends work on building sites , but all finish early in a Friday . Our club have had to travel to far end of the county for 7pm games for years. 8pm start for selected ““local games” is very doable and very attractive. As there would be advanced notice a player could take leave on the Friday afternoon. For such one-off high profile games, most  employers would be amenable to this. I imagine the GPA would negotiate appropriate redress to avoid discrimination of players .  The promotional benefit of FNF is too good an opportunity to continue missing out on . The GAA had several grounds around the country under-utilised , let’s play more county games in a condensed season, and the extra revenue can be ploughed into grassroots . The  casement scenario mentioned above is relevant…invest in giving Antrim a scaled down replacement of casement(which was rarely filled) , and plough the rest of the money into grassroots in Ulster ( which the IFA did). A glamorous more lucrative county game should become a cash cow for grassroots development IMHO. This split season , and fairer merit-based Intercounty game, could bring us to a new level: inter-county and club . Bring it on!

Like I said if players and county managers are happy with it then carry on, I personally as a supporter wouldn’t want to finish work at five and head off 60+ miles on a Friday night. Why not have it at 3pm on a Saturday like soccer?

I know from personal experience as a player/manager of club that we’d better performances when not heading 60 miles to a game during the dark nights..
Very fair point MR. I just think that there is serious promotional value to stand alone games throughout the weekend. Down SFC does this well.
I’d love to head to athletic grounds for Down v Armagh at 8pm on a Friday . Time off work for players would have to happen though
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: burdizzo on October 15, 2021, 10:37:12 PM
hurling needs to ditch provincials more than football or  have them as pre season when galway and antrim can play in leinster it makes mockery of provincial anyway.

The point is McAvoy is happy to sit back and watch hurling die and give little or no help.

The point was that McAvoy had happily let Ulster Championships die, and then cited their demise as a reason for opposing the football proposal!
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 15, 2021, 11:08:13 PM
hurling needs to ditch provincials more than football or  have them as pre season when galway and antrim can play in leinster it makes mockery of provincial anyway.

The point is McAvoy is happy to sit back and watch hurling die and give little or no help.

The point was that McAvoy had happily let Ulster Championships die, and then cited their demise as a reason for opposing the football proposal!

I’m not really sure what the point is here.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 16, 2021, 11:04:49 AM
should the quarter finals be totally seeded like 1v8 2v7 3v6 4v5  if proposal b happens   i think they going to be half seeded where top 4 getting drawing against bottom remaining 4
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Derry Optimist on October 16, 2021, 12:56:58 PM
 To summarise the prospects  arising out of next Saturday's special Congress vote re the new Championship proposals, it would appear that Proposal A has no chance of success,that Congress B will get  good  support but not enough to pass the required 60 per cent mark.

Therefore we will be back to the old Qualifying system which apparently nobody wants. However, in the eyes of those against change of any kind that is much more preferable than to embrace change which they perceive CORRECTLY  as a loss of their provincial own power and  status. But is that as important as treating all our counties and players  equally and with respect?

True, the vast majority of the players(who are the most important stakeholders in this very increasingly  sorry debacle),a huge majority of supporters and practically all the media are in support of Proposal B.

The reality of all of this is that, as it has been so  accurately pointed out by former Tyrone star and current Antrim manager Enda McGinley, NONE of the foregoing have a vote to decide the outcome.The whole Review body Task force's motions and thus its individual members have been lambasted by one Provincial CEO and condemned by another Provincial CEO.What a dictatorial way to treat so many fine dedicated and fellow  GAA volunteers.

What credible organisation would allow two motions for change go forward in the first place and then allow the self same motions no support in the guise of being neutral?If the GAA HIERARCHY REALLY WANTED CHANGE THEY WOULD HAVE directed the Review Group to agree on ONE motion.

If this had been done the hierarchy would have had no excuse not to get fully behind the agreed motion and market it nationwide accordingly. Instead they failed to do that and have failed everyone, especially the players who do all the hard training for nothing and curtail the rest of us from having a fair equitable and enjoyable GAA season.One would have to question the real rationale behind this unfair treatment of so many volunteers and so many players who have given so much for so little respect in return.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: yellowcard on October 16, 2021, 01:16:20 PM
To summarise the prospects  arising out of next Saturday's special Congress vote re the new Championship proposals, it would appear that Proposal A has no chance of success,that Congress B will get  good  support but not enough to pass the required 60 per cent mark.

Therefore we will be back to the old Qualifying system which apparently nobody wants. However, in the eyes of those against change of any kind that is much more preferable than to embrace change which they perceive CORRECTLY  as a loss of their provincial own power and  status. But is that as important as treating all our counties and players  equally and with respect?

True, the vast majority of the players(who are the most important stakeholders in this very increasingly  sorry debacle),a huge majority of supporters and practically all the media are in support of Proposal B.

The reality of all of this is that, as it has been so  accurately pointed out by former Tyrone star and current Antrim manager Enda McGinley, NONE of the foregoing have a vote to decide the outcome.The whole Review body Task force's motions and thus its individual members have been lambasted by one Provincial CEO and condemned by another Provincial CEO.What a dictatorial way to treat so many fine dedicated and fellow  GAA volunteers.

What credible organisation would allow two motions for change go forward in the first place and then allow the self same motions no support in the guise of being neutral?If the GAA HIERARCHY REALLY WANTED CHANGE THEY WOULD HAVE directed the Review Group to agree on ONE motion.

If this had been done the hierarchy would have had no excuse not to get fully behind the agreed motion and market it nationwide accordingly. Instead they failed to do that and have failed everyone, especially the players who do all the hard training for nothing and curtail the rest of us from having a fair equitable and enjoyable GAA season.One would have to question the real rationale behind this unfair treatment of so many volunteers and so many players who have given so much for so little respect in return.

There has been an absence of leadership from HQ to date and their silence is deafening on the proposals. Maybe they might come out in the final week of the debate but until now we are just left reading between the lines as to their intentions.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 16, 2021, 02:39:55 PM
Whatever you might think of the proposals the GAA head bucks have not covered themselves in glory.
If they weren't happy with the proposals why put them forward as motions in the first place?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 17, 2021, 08:16:59 AM
i dont see why under the 2001-2017 system that the provincial champions did not get a home advantage it also gives a bit more of a reasoning to win the provincial championship a home draw and  a match against a qualifier
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: armaghniac on October 17, 2021, 09:33:22 AM
Home advantage was introduced, but only for the Leinster champions.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Hound on October 18, 2021, 10:13:14 AM
i dont see why under the 2001-2017 system that the provincial champions did not get a home advantage it also gives a bit more of a reasoning to win the provincial championship a home draw and  a match against a qualifier
In the very first year of the qualifiers, each provincial winner got home province advantage with the games to be played in Croke Park, Thurles, Castlebar and Clones - regardless of who was the winner of each province. So Monaghan and Dublin would have had home QF advantage for example, but they did not win their province. So it ended up that Westmeath, Kerry, Roscommon and Tyrone had home province advantage for the QFs.

Of course, the way the draw worked out, all the winners bar Kerry were drawn against counties from the same province, so the home province advantage was completely moot.

There was some uproar from certain quarters (often this doesn't come from the county in question but others who perceive another has been sleighted) that Roscommon won Connacht and didn't get to play in Croke Park. So after that there was a decision that the QFs should generally be played in Croke Park and the initial plan of home province advantage for the provincial winners was cast into the dustbin.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: twohands!!! on October 18, 2021, 05:46:37 PM
Quote
https://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1450109412463497223

Michael Reynolds, Leinster GAA Secretary showing what he thinks of the players views here.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 18, 2021, 06:55:52 PM
The GAA would be a great organisation if it wasn't for those pesky games and the people who play in them.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 18, 2021, 07:10:14 PM
Quote
https://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1450109412463497223

Michael Reynolds, Leinster GAA Secretary showing what he thinks of the players views here.

That's such a depressing interview. Players should shut up and realize people like him and others on the provincial councils know better than they do. Scary thing is alot of the people on the provincial councils probably agree with him
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 18, 2021, 07:30:14 PM
Quote
https://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1450109412463497223

Michael Reynolds, Leinster GAA Secretary showing what he thinks of the players views here.

Heard him on Newstalk there now.

He was pretty adamant that a Leinster Championship without All Ireland progression would be meaningless.

Surely he shouldn’t need explained the Catch 22 here i.e. if the competition is meaningless in its own right, then why fight so hard for its retention ?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 18, 2021, 09:23:20 PM
Quote
https://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1450109412463497223

Michael Reynolds, Leinster GAA Secretary showing what he thinks of the players views here.

Heard him on Newstalk there now.

He was pretty adamant that a Leinster Championship without All Ireland progression would be meaningless.

Surely he shouldn’t need explained the Catch 22 here i.e. if the competition is meaningless in its own right, then why fight so hard for its retention ?
Again I make the comparison between the provincial championships and American football's divisional championships.

If the divisional championships were taken out of the NFL season proper and played off as a 3 or a 6 game round robin in pre-season, would they matter?

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 18, 2021, 09:36:26 PM
i dont see why under the 2001-2017 system that the provincial champions did not get a home advantage it also gives a bit more of a reasoning to win the provincial championship a home draw and  a match against a qualifier
In the very first year of the qualifiers, each provincial winner got home province advantage with the games to be played in Croke Park, Thurles, Castlebar and Clones - regardless of who was the winner of each province. So Monaghan and Dublin would have had home QF advantage for example, but they did not win their province. So it ended up that Westmeath, Kerry, Roscommon and Tyrone had home province advantage for the QFs.

Of course, the way the draw worked out, all the winners bar Kerry were drawn against counties from the same province, so the home province advantage was completely moot.

There was some uproar from certain quarters (often this doesn't come from the county in question but others who perceive another has been sleighted) that Roscommon won Connacht and didn't get to play in Croke Park. So after that there was a decision that the QFs should generally be played in Croke Park and the initial plan of home province advantage for the provincial winners was cast into the dustbin.

If they hadn't drawn Galway who they beat a couple of weeks previous it might have been different for them too.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 18, 2021, 09:43:21 PM
Quote
https://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1450109412463497223

Michael Reynolds, Leinster GAA Secretary showing what he thinks of the players views here.

Heard him on Newstalk there now.

He was pretty adamant that a Leinster Championship without All Ireland progression would be meaningless.

Surely he shouldn’t need explained the Catch 22 here i.e. if the competition is meaningless in its own right, then why fight so hard for its retention ?
Again I make the comparison between the provincial championships and American football's divisional championships.

If the divisional championships were taken out of the NFL season proper and played off as a 3 or a 6 game round robin in pre-season, would they matter?

The NFL actually show how a provincial system could work compared to the current shit show. League based to tournament with the best teams going forward into the knock out stages.

Even in the league games fixtures are based on the previous years performance so the worst performing teams get to play against each other and the best test get the tougher fixtures. Yet another sport showing that matching teams of similar ability against each other is entertaining and people will go to watch.

It's farcical that the secretary of Leinster GAA thinks keeping the current system is a good idea. I wonder how many games he goes to every year?

Clearly it all comes down to how much money he thinks Leinster council will get and how important his roll will be when deciding on what's best for the future
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 18, 2021, 09:48:31 PM
Quote
https://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1450109412463497223

Michael Reynolds, Leinster GAA Secretary showing what he thinks of the players views here.

Heard him on Newstalk there now.

He was pretty adamant that a Leinster Championship without All Ireland progression would be meaningless.

Surely he shouldn’t need explained the Catch 22 here i.e. if the competition is meaningless in its own right, then why fight so hard for its retention ?
Again I make the comparison between the provincial championships and American football's divisional championships.

If the divisional championships were taken out of the NFL season proper and played off as a 3 or a 6 game round robin in pre-season, would they matter?

The NFL actually show how a provincial system could work compared to the current shit show. League based to tournament with the best teams going forward into the knock out stages.

Even in the league games fixtures are based on the previous years performance so the worst performing teams get to play against each other and the best test get the tougher fixtures. Yet another sport showing that matching teams of similar ability against each other is entertaining and people will go to watch.

It's farcical that the secretary of Leinster GAA thinks keeping the current system is a good idea. I wonder how many games he goes to every year?

Clearly it all comes down to how much money he thinks Leinster council will get and how important his roll will be when deciding on what's best for the future
If you want a league based championship and believe that the NFL know how to run one, wouldn't you be calling for all teams to be classed on an equal footing?

ie. 4 groups of 8 based on a random open draw?

Dublin, Kerry and Tyrone could end up in the same group, playing for only two qualification spots.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 18, 2021, 10:14:09 PM
Quote
https://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1450109412463497223

Michael Reynolds, Leinster GAA Secretary showing what he thinks of the players views here.

Heard him on Newstalk there now.

He was pretty adamant that a Leinster Championship without All Ireland progression would be meaningless.

Surely he shouldn’t need explained the Catch 22 here i.e. if the competition is meaningless in its own right, then why fight so hard for its retention ?
Again I make the comparison between the provincial championships and American football's divisional championships.

If the divisional championships were taken out of the NFL season proper and played off as a 3 or a 6 game round robin in pre-season, would they matter?

The NFL actually show how a provincial system could work compared to the current shit show. League based to tournament with the best teams going forward into the knock out stages.

Even in the league games fixtures are based on the previous years performance so the worst performing teams get to play against each other and the best test get the tougher fixtures. Yet another sport showing that matching teams of similar ability against each other is entertaining and people will go to watch.

It's farcical that the secretary of Leinster GAA thinks keeping the current system is a good idea. I wonder how many games he goes to every year?

Clearly it all comes down to how much money he thinks Leinster council will get and how important his roll will be when deciding on what's best for the future
If you want a league based championship and believe that the NFL know how to run one, wouldn't you be calling for all teams to be classed on an equal footing?

ie. 4 groups of 8 based on a random open draw?

Dublin, Kerry and Tyrone could end up in the same group, playing for only two qualification spots.

Absolutely I want a champions league based tournament. Best teams will qualify for the knock out stages if it's based on a league format and teams get to improve by playing regularly against similarly matched opponents.

You can still introduce seeding so teams who win their provinces are kept apart in separate groups. That way the provincial championship could retain some importance before the actual championship starts.

Option B isn't perfect but it's a step in the right direction. Top teams compete for Sam and the weaker teams have their own competition. It's being introduced on a trial basis and there's no reason it can't be further amended and improved in future. That's what other sports do. They evolve and move with the times. The people in charge look for ways to improve the game through rule changes or changes to the competition structure.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Blowitupref on October 19, 2021, 12:37:35 AM
Former GAA president John Horan calls for two-year trial of Proposal B from 2023

Horan used an online meeting of county chairs on Monday evening, convened to discuss financial aspects of the proposal, to set out his position, calling for a two-year trial in 2023 and 2024 with any tweaks to be made between now and Congress next February.

In the meantime, the 2022 championship would revert to the status quo with qualifiers, straight knockout quarter-finals and the Tailteann Cup.

Horan, who put the Fixtures Calendar Review Task Force in place that came up with the two proposals, as well as a raft of other motions for change around fixtures including the split season, is also understood to have made the case for Proposal A, four provincial groups of eight that would involve preliminary losers in one province moving to another, to be withdrawn ahead of Saturday due to lack of support.

The decision not to reconvene the Task Force in the run up to Congress and effectively leave the motions for change without a guiding body has also been a source of criticism. Horan has not spoken publicly about the proposals since leaving office in February and opted to use the forum of a gathering of chairmen to put across his opinion.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Solo_run on October 19, 2021, 01:59:58 AM
I think not rewarding 6th place in D1 a place in the AI yet rewarding 3rd place in D3 a place in the AI and winners of D3 and D4 as a joke. Top tier teams could quite easily linger around 3rd spot in D2 for years
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Kickham csc on October 19, 2021, 06:13:49 AM
Don't understand how Option B is going to be a success for the weaker counties.

It will result in the unintended consequence of making it even harder for weaker counties to break into the All Ireland championship top table. The top counties will continue getting stronger and the weaker getting weaker and in 10 years the status of inter-county standards will become even more polarized

This option will shut down the potential for real breakthroughs, eg; Leitrim in the 90's, Antrim in the late 90's early 00's, Westmeath in the 00's, Carlow's recent run, Tipperary and Cavan's titles last year. With this proposal it would take a team up to 3-5 years to get up to the top table without a serious provincial championship which would limit the number of years of a breakthrough team to challenge at the top.

So, I think option B will stifle weaker teams development.

Look at hurling, little to no interest in the secondary competitions, and have any "weaker" counties broken into the top table in the past 10-15 years, nope. Antrim made a good stab at it this year, but no county has challenged the establishment.

Also, currently counties have three meaningful titles to play for, league, provincial championship and All Ireland. Take the provincial championship away, and now you have two titles to play for. We have just removed 1 meaningful title to play for. How is this progress.

Everybody will bring up Munster and Leinster championships, but is the answer scrapping them? The GAA invested in Dublin and they created a powerhouse. Why not invest in the other counties to bring them up instead of doing away with the championship.

Additionally, the probably of the Div 4 teams winning the B championship will be better than winning a provincial, not a lot, so realistically, there will be 4 teams in contention for the All Ireland and 4ish for the B.

Lastly, county football is representative football, the fact that a county takes a hammering in a championship, so be it. The only way to reverse this is to develop proper coaching programs, not change to competition.

For me the easy way to do this is rank teams 1-34 (including NY and London) on the previous season. Play the league and re rank at the end of the league. Provincial championships to be run off based on the rankings. After provincials re-rank based on league and championship and have a ranked All Ireland championship. If you don't want a hammering get better league and provincial results.



Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Milltown Row2 on October 19, 2021, 07:37:07 AM
Surely if you get better in the league you’re championship performances will improve?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 19, 2021, 07:43:37 AM
I think you’re confused about what a breakthrough is.

“eg; Leitrim in the 90's, Antrim in the late 90's early 00's, Westmeath in the 00's, Carlow's recent run, Tipperary and Cavan's titles last year.”

The commonality between these teams is that none of them made an AI final, and none of them kept it going for more than 2 years.

So what is it that they broke through? And what would the league-based system prevent them from doing?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 19, 2021, 09:15:23 AM
Leitrim 1990 to 1995 was one of their best teams, probably only 2nd to a v good team they had in the 50s.
Yet they lost to Ros in Championship 4 years in a row but took the 94 Connacht (beating all the big 3) so they didn't suddenly "break through".
Crucially they won an AI 'B" Title around 90 or 91 which got them started.
By the way the Tailteann Cup is in next year no matter what.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: blewuporstuffed on October 19, 2021, 09:50:59 AM
Quote
https://twitter.com/offtheball/status/1450109412463497223

Michael Reynolds, Leinster GAA Secretary showing what he thinks of the players views here.

That's such a depressing interview. Players should shut up and realize people like him and others on the provincial councils know better than they do. Scary thing is alot of the people on the provincial councils probably agree with him

Whatever your views on the proposals , that is a car crash of an interview.
Personally I think the structures badly need to be reformed, I'm just not sure proposal B is the answer
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Hound on October 19, 2021, 12:11:10 PM
I think not rewarding 6th place in D1 a place in the AI yet rewarding 3rd place in D3 a place in the AI and winners of D3 and D4 as a joke. Top tier teams could quite easily linger around 3rd spot in D2 for years
You're picking the very worst hypothetical and making a meal of it.

There's no system without downsides. As a Dub it's easy for me to say that there should be completely separate B and C championships like every county has for their clubs (inter and junior). And the only way you get into the top echelon is to win Inter (or Tailteann or whatever you want to call it), and that would make winning such a championship a massive achievement with a massive reward (like every inter championship in every county). However, managers, players and fans in the weaker counties don't want that, and they are the important voice, but they do want to play more competitive games.

Proposal B offers this.

Yes, there is the argument that having the Top 8 play 7 championship games against each other will only improve them further. But one of the real benefits on the new system is that it allows reward for Div 2, Div 3 and Div 4.

Is it easier to come 3rd in Div 2 or win Div 3/4 compared to coming 6th in Division 1? Yes. But so what.
I think it beggars belief that people are so concerned about the poor lads who came 6th in D1 and miss out on the knockout stages.
They've had 7 games at top championship level and they've failed to make the top 5. Their last couple of games will have been real do or die affairs. In the vast majority of years their last game will effectively be a knockout game, i.e. lose and you're out.

So in summary they deserve to be out after 7 games and a heap of losses. Allowing an extra team qualify will just devalue the league stages. This seems to be on the cards for change, but it would be a mistake and a case of people not thinking through the consequences.

As for deliberately trying to come 3rd in D2 each year? Very difficult to do in practice and the benefit and prestige of playing in D1 should ensure fair play anyway.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 19, 2021, 01:16:40 PM
If there  in division 2 they would have to win more games then play a top  4 team in quarter final (if qfs are seeded) so its not an easier route to all ireland really.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 19, 2021, 01:21:52 PM
i look at it like this division 1 is like the premier league so based on league rankings they get more teams in the champions league than weaker nations say like the league  of ireland  division 1 is the premier league division 2 is like  Portugal division 3 and 4 are like league of ireland and some league like  albania
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 19, 2021, 01:23:14 PM
is teams in division 1 are they not suppose to be  quality team so its up to them to win.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 19, 2021, 01:24:16 PM
it would also hurt your attendance figures if you get relegated on purpose maybe
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 19, 2021, 01:35:26 PM
Any manager who even considers a plan of “let’s get relegated from D1 this year, so we can spend next year playing lower level teams, and then reach peak levels again for a proper tilt at the All Ireland from the knockout stages”, well they’re clearly nuts and will never achieve the end goals. Ever.

——

People’s concerns with some teams being knocked out of a knock out competition, are curious. I’d really hate to see the formulae they might devise for when it is both sensible and fair for Kerry / Roscommon / Monaghan to exit a competition.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 19, 2021, 02:27:44 PM
Any manager who even considers a plan of “let’s get relegated from D1 this year, so we can spend next year playing lower level teams, and then reach peak levels again for a proper tilt at the All Ireland from the knockout stages”, well they’re clearly nuts and will never achieve the end goals. Ever.

——

People’s concerns with some teams being knocked out of a knock out competition, are curious. I’d really hate to see the formulae they might devise for when it is both sensible and fair for Kerry / Roscommon / Monaghan to exit a competition.


Its not even a easier route anyway they will have to  win league to get directly into quarter finals or a preliminary  2nd or 3rd and if they are relegated it means they are probably not that much better than some of the teams in division 2  and they will probably be unseeded in QF so they are getting relegated to get knockout in a QF probably when  they could fight to get a top 4 or 5 spot
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Kickham csc on October 19, 2021, 02:40:12 PM
I think you’re confused about what a breakthrough is.

“eg; Leitrim in the 90's, Antrim in the late 90's early 00's, Westmeath in the 00's, Carlow's recent run, Tipperary and Cavan's titles last year.”

The commonality between these teams is that none of them made an AI final, and none of them kept it going for more than 2 years.

So what is it that they broke through? And what would the league-based system prevent them from doing?

I think you have an elitist view of what a breakthrough is. They had breakthrough years in the sense that they had good years in the provincial championships from a period of not being competitive. The energy and entertainment from watching your team go toe to toe with the big boys as massive underdogs was electrifying for supporters and the county, and greatly motivating for the players. An opportunity that will be removed with these proposals as the provincial championships will die a Railway cup death if they aren't linked to championship which will result in less experience for the weaker counties playing against the big boys.


If your playing Div 3-4 football, only one or two teams will move up in divisions every year. With teams being relegated from the division above. So you could easily have yo-yo teams getting relegated from Div 1 / Div 2 every year who get promoted the next year. This happens all the time at club level and has a high probability of happening in the inter county scene.  Would that encourage or discourage teams in the lower teams who know they are outsiders for promotion and have not marque championship game to target in the summer.

From a motivating point of view,
Whats the average league attendance for each division?
Whats the average TV coverage time for each division?
Whats the average monetary support from sponsors for each division?
What motivation will minors have if they never get to see their seniors compete against the best?

These proposals are elitist, and will only protect the stronger counties

Antrim v Leitrim / Carlow / Waterford will never generate the same interest as an Antrim v Derry / Tyrone / Down game

Last point. I take a pretty hard line view on teams getting hammered in championship. As Bill Parcells said, "You are what your record says you are". Instead of hiding from this by dressing up competitiveness in a new league / championship format, counties need to be taken to task if they are not supporting football development.

Why are Meath / Kildare/ Offaly not more competitive. Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone have all challenged Dublin in the past decade but fell short until this year. Why are the leinster counties more competitive. Kildare and Meath will have larger playing bases to pick from than Tyrone, why are they not more competitive?

Why are Waterford, Clare, Limerick allowed to get away with token support for the footballers in comparison to hurlers.

Why doesn't the GAA put in place requirements to play in the championship a commitment that all county's provide equal hurling and football support in regards to funding, resources etc?

Why doesn't the GAA set a maximum limit on spending on county teams, and if you go over that the county board will get finned with fine money getting distributed to weaker counties.

But no, lets set up a structure where the strong get stronger and weak weaker
 
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 19, 2021, 03:15:29 PM
Kickham, the problem with all of the above is that you would seem to be completely mental.

I mean let’s be absolutely clear about something.

There are 32 counties in Ireland.
The bottom 17 counties in terms of population, together have a smaller population than Dublin.
The bottom 10 have less than the population of Antrim.
The biggest 5 counties have a bigger population than the other 27 combined.
Only 9 counties have above average population.

Yet you actually imagine that it’s possible by an unequal distribution of finance to smaller counties and a series of rules that would drive members out of the association, and by convoluting the fixture calendar into an unholy mess, that these disparities can be resolved.

And anyone who disagrees with you looks like they’re about to be portrayed as elitist.

The GAA is the most unequal of sporting  associations in the world, simply because it is segmented on county lines.

Everything else is a symptom, not a cause. To think otherwise is batshit crazy.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Kickham csc on October 19, 2021, 06:01:07 PM
Kickham, the problem with all of the above is that you would seem to be completely mental.

I mean let’s be absolutely clear about something.

There are 32 counties in Ireland.
The bottom 17 counties in terms of population, together have a smaller population than Dublin.
The bottom 10 have less than the population of Antrim.
The biggest 5 counties have a bigger population than the other 27 combined.
Only 9 counties have above average population.

Yet you actually imagine that it’s possible by an unequal distribution of finance to smaller counties and a series of rules that would drive members out of the association, and by convoluting the fixture calendar into an unholy mess, that these disparities can be resolved.

And anyone who disagrees with you looks like they’re about to be portrayed as elitist.

The GAA is the most unequal of sporting  associations in the world, simply because it is segmented on county lines.

Everything else is a symptom, not a cause. To think otherwise is batshit crazy.

So lets be honest about the proposals and what they will establish. This will result in the cementing of a small number of counties to elite status.

Small / weaker counties will just have to focus on a secondary competition that will not generate any fanfare, unless you boot the minor final away from All Ireland final day and have the "A & B " final on the same day. But will that help the development of the games.

Lets also be clear, that one of the core foundations that drove the popularity of the GAA is over, the provincial championships. In time, we will lose the days out in Clones, the Derry - Tyrone, Armagh - Down, Armagh -Tyrone derby games will be lessened  and we will have one less meaningful competition to play for.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 19, 2021, 07:28:55 PM
Ulster GAA chief executive Brian McAvoy likens Proposal B to Brexit
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 19, 2021, 07:29:43 PM
he called for making provincials round robin so what that not make them even more worse as there would be dead rubbers
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 19, 2021, 07:33:49 PM
I don’t honestly see how an 8 team, 2-up, 2-down league system gives a control steer to the elite. They are only 3-4 poor games away from demotion, whilst a weaker team that has improved to division 2 is only a hot streak away from D1 status.

——

More is the point, that the current provincial / back door structure has furthered the gap between top and bottom more than at any time in history. One third of provinces have given up before the provincials start, and another third have no interest in the back door whatsoever. This plays out in how they approach the championship season. There is little hunger, limited desire to disrupt the inevitable.

Supporting that system while saying you’ve got the best interests of weaker counties at heart, takes some leap of imagination.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 19, 2021, 07:43:41 PM
A league format is not a championship. A championship is knock out. Who the hell wants to see continuous matches between the same teams? It’ll be like Groundhog Day.

Their Proposal B tries to solve all the issues, and will end up solving none.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Main Street on October 19, 2021, 10:02:02 PM
I think not rewarding 6th place in D1 a place in the AI yet rewarding 3rd place in D3 a place in the AI and winners of D3 and D4 as a joke. Top tier teams could quite easily linger around 3rd spot in D2 for years
You're picking the very worst hypothetical and making a meal of it.

There's no system without downsides. As a Dub it's easy for me to say that there should be completely separate B and C championships like every county has for their clubs (inter and junior). And the only way you get into the top echelon is to win Inter (or Tailteann or whatever you want to call it), and that would make winning such a championship a massive achievement with a massive reward (like every inter championship in every county). However, managers, players and fans in the weaker counties don't want that, and they are the important voice, but they do want to play more competitive games.

Proposal B offers this.

Yes, there is the argument that having the Top 8 play 7 championship games against each other will only improve them further. But one of the real benefits on the new system is that it allows reward for Div 2, Div 3 and Div 4.

Is it easier to come 3rd in Div 2 or win Div 3/4 compared to coming 6th in Division 1? Yes. But so what.
I think it beggars belief that people are so concerned about the poor lads who came 6th in D1 and miss out on the knockout stages.
They've had 7 games at top championship level and they've failed to make the top 5. Their last couple of games will have been real do or die affairs. In the vast majority of years their last game will effectively be a knockout game, i.e. lose and you're out.

So in summary they deserve to be out after 7 games and a heap of losses. Allowing an extra team qualify will just devalue the league stages. This seems to be on the cards for change, but it would be a mistake and a case of people not thinking through the consequences.

As for deliberately trying to come 3rd in D2 each year? Very difficult to do in practice and the benefit and prestige of playing in D1 should ensure fair play anyway.
A heap of losses?
Tyrone finished 6th in 2017 with 7 points. Another time, 4 teams who finished 4,5,6&7th ended up all together on 6 points. There is a thin line between 6th place and those above, oft times the difference being down to the team  who plays  4 at home or 4 away.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Hound on October 20, 2021, 07:38:48 AM
I think not rewarding 6th place in D1 a place in the AI yet rewarding 3rd place in D3 a place in the AI and winners of D3 and D4 as a joke. Top tier teams could quite easily linger around 3rd spot in D2 for years
You're picking the very worst hypothetical and making a meal of it.

There's no system without downsides. As a Dub it's easy for me to say that there should be completely separate B and C championships like every county has for their clubs (inter and junior). And the only way you get into the top echelon is to win Inter (or Tailteann or whatever you want to call it), and that would make winning such a championship a massive achievement with a massive reward (like every inter championship in every county). However, managers, players and fans in the weaker counties don't want that, and they are the important voice, but they do want to play more competitive games.

Proposal B offers this.

Yes, there is the argument that having the Top 8 play 7 championship games against each other will only improve them further. But one of the real benefits on the new system is that it allows reward for Div 2, Div 3 and Div 4.

Is it easier to come 3rd in Div 2 or win Div 3/4 compared to coming 6th in Division 1? Yes. But so what.
I think it beggars belief that people are so concerned about the poor lads who came 6th in D1 and miss out on the knockout stages.
They've had 7 games at top championship level and they've failed to make the top 5. Their last couple of games will have been real do or die affairs. In the vast majority of years their last game will effectively be a knockout game, i.e. lose and you're out.

So in summary they deserve to be out after 7 games and a heap of losses. Allowing an extra team qualify will just devalue the league stages. This seems to be on the cards for change, but it would be a mistake and a case of people not thinking through the consequences.

As for deliberately trying to come 3rd in D2 each year? Very difficult to do in practice and the benefit and prestige of playing in D1 should ensure fair play anyway.
A heap of losses?
Tyrone finished 6th in 2017 with 7 points. Another time, 4 teams who finished 4,5,6&7th ended up all together on 6 points. There is a thin line between 6th place and those above, oft times the difference being down to the team  who plays  4 at home or 4 away.
Is that the best a 6th place team did for all the years you looked? Lost 3 and drew 1 and had 5 teams finish ahead of them. They would have known exactly what was needed over their last 2 or 3 games and failed to do it.
Allowing more Div1 teams in would make a lot more games meaningless instead of the excitement that would be there with only 5 making it.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 20, 2021, 09:07:55 AM
5 out of 8 is fair enough but the 3/1/1 from the lower Divisions is what would irk team 6.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Louther on October 20, 2021, 11:58:11 AM
This narrative about the 6th place team seems to go back to trying to keep everyone in championship for as long as possible and giving teams a chance where they had a chance to earn it but haven’t.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 20, 2021, 12:30:18 PM
This narrative about the 6th place team seems to go back to trying to keep everyone in championship for as long as possible and giving teams a chance where they had a chance to earn it but haven’t.

Does anyone really believe the GAA will go back to the drawingboard and start again if changes aren't voted through this weekend? The provincal councils certainly don't think there's any need. The only slight adjustment they'd make is to make the provincial championships round robin based so there are more games, more hammerings and more money for themselves.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Main Street on October 20, 2021, 01:11:44 PM
I think not rewarding 6th place in D1 a place in the AI yet rewarding 3rd place in D3 a place in the AI and winners of D3 and D4 as a joke. Top tier teams could quite easily linger around 3rd spot in D2 for years
You're picking the very worst hypothetical and making a meal of it.

There's no system without downsides. As a Dub it's easy for me to say that there should be completely separate B and C championships like every county has for their clubs (inter and junior). And the only way you get into the top echelon is to win Inter (or Tailteann or whatever you want to call it), and that would make winning such a championship a massive achievement with a massive reward (like every inter championship in every county). However, managers, players and fans in the weaker counties don't want that, and they are the important voice, but they do want to play more competitive games.

Proposal B offers this.

Yes, there is the argument that having the Top 8 play 7 championship games against each other will only improve them further. But one of the real benefits on the new system is that it allows reward for Div 2, Div 3 and Div 4.

Is it easier to come 3rd in Div 2 or win Div 3/4 compared to coming 6th in Division 1? Yes. But so what.
I think it beggars belief that people are so concerned about the poor lads who came 6th in D1 and miss out on the knockout stages.
They've had 7 games at top championship level and they've failed to make the top 5. Their last couple of games will have been real do or die affairs. In the vast majority of years their last game will effectively be a knockout game, i.e. lose and you're out.

So in summary they deserve to be out after 7 games and a heap of losses. Allowing an extra team qualify will just devalue the league stages. This seems to be on the cards for change, but it would be a mistake and a case of people not thinking through the consequences.

As for deliberately trying to come 3rd in D2 each year? Very difficult to do in practice and the benefit and prestige of playing in D1 should ensure fair play anyway.
A heap of losses?
Tyrone finished 6th in 2017 with 7 points. Another time, 4 teams who finished 4,5,6&7th ended up all together on 6 points. There is a thin line between 6th place and those above, oft times the difference being down to the team  who plays  4 at home or 4 away.
Is that the best a 6th place team did for all the years you looked? Lost 3 and drew 1 and had 5 teams finish ahead of them. They would have known exactly what was needed over their last 2 or 3 games and failed to do it.
Allowing more Div1 teams in would make a lot more games meaningless instead of the excitement that would be there with only 5 making it.
Lost 3 and drew one  or won 3 and drew 1, is that a heap of losses or a heap of wins? Earning 6th place in div 1  under prop B’s format would mean 6th best county, whatever about the merits of the relegated 2. 
 I’d have the 2nd place Div 2  go into the play-offs and no reward for the 3rd place failure. With only 7 games played in the league there would still be plenty of excitement to go around. Rewarding the 3rd place failure in div 2 is just a sop to get votes.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 20, 2021, 01:26:27 PM
7 counties have backed proposal B. Cork, Tipperary, Wexford (with clarifications) Meath, Kildare, Longford and Clare.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: clonadmad on October 20, 2021, 02:39:43 PM
7 counties have backed proposal B. Cork, Tipperary, Wexford (with clarifications) Meath, Kildare, Longford and Clare.

A total of 23 votes "confirmed" then out of a total of 183
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: twohands!!! on October 20, 2021, 03:41:11 PM
7 counties have backed proposal B. Cork, Tipperary, Wexford (with clarifications) Meath, Kildare, Longford and Clare.

A total of 23 votes "confirmed" then out of a total of 183

All these counties confirmed in favour of Option B
Meath
Tipperary
Kildare
Cork
Longford
Down
Clare
Louth
Westmeath
Offaly

Warwickshire supposedly leaning towards being in favour

Delegates decide on the day (and from looking at what they have said there's a reasonable chance all of these 4 might vote in favour of Option B)
Wexford - the following is from the Wexford GAA websiter "The Senior Football Team preferred option for 2022 is Proposal B. There was clear support from Club delegates for the need for change to the status quo. It was agreed that Wexford GAA’s delegates to Special Congress should consider the debate on Saturday and any proposed amendments and vote in the interest of change and Wexford GAA."
Laois
Waterford
Kerry

Individuals who have come out in favour of Option B
President Larry McCarthy and director general Tom Ryan (although he doesn't have a vote)
Ex-President Sean Kelly in favour
Ex-President John Horan called for a two year trial of Option B

The only people who have come out against it are the 4 Provincial Secretaries.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Kickham csc on October 20, 2021, 04:07:34 PM
Kickham, the problem with all of the above is that you would seem to be completely mental.

I mean let’s be absolutely clear about something.

There are 32 counties in Ireland. Not in the GAA world, London, New York, Warrickshire etc are all counties
The bottom 17 counties in terms of population, together have a smaller population than Dublin. Yep, and how do the proposals fix that. The longer Option B lasts the stronger they will get
The bottom 10 have less than the population of Antrim. Is that the GAA population in Antrim. There's a lot of none GAA population in Antrim.
The biggest 5 counties have a bigger population than the other 27 combined. How long has this existed.... from the start of the GAA. Nothing new now
Only 9 counties have above average population.

Yet you actually imagine that it’s possible by an unequal distribution of finance to smaller counties and a series of rules that would drive members out of the association, and by convoluting the fixture calendar into an unholy mess, that these disparities can be resolved. Never said anything of the sort. Your losing the run of yourself here

And anyone who disagrees with you looks like they’re about to be portrayed as elitist. Maybe they are if the are supporting a system that will ring fence the strongest counties and set up a system to actually prevent weaker counties competing with them

The GAA is the most unequal of sporting  associations in the world, simply because it is segmented on county lines. There are other sports who have had the same problem, who actually came up with solutions to ensure level playing fields. Look at MLB, NFL in the states. Creative thinking for the good of the whole game not just the powerful few

Everything else is a symptom, not a cause. To think otherwise is batshit crazy. Getting personal again....Playing the man not the ball

Jesus Wobbler, getting personal there, playing the man not the ball!!!

quote]

So lets be honest about the proposals and what they will establish. This will result in the cementing of a small number of counties to elite status.

Small / weaker counties will just have to focus on a secondary competition that will not generate any fanfare, unless you boot the minor final away from All Ireland final day and have the "A & B " final on the same day. But will that help the development of the games?

Lets also be clear, that one of the core foundations that drove the popularity of the GAA is over, the provincial championships. In time, we will lose the days out in Clones, the Derry - Tyrone, Armagh - Down, Armagh -Tyrone derby games will be lessened  and we will have one less meaningful competition to play for.

Lastly, county football is representative elite level sport. If your not up to the standard, then its up to the county board to fix it.

I see noting wrong with a ranking system, based on 1 - League, 2 provincial championships. Range the teams from 1 to 32, with play offs with the lower ranked teams to get the 32'nd spot. Then have an all ireland championship, straight knockout, no backdoor.

It will provide the div 1 teams the benefit of playing in the higher league, and the weaker teams still have a shot of playing the big boys in an knockout.

FA cup works well, and the smaller teams all focus on getting to the 4th or 5th round when the big teams join. NCAA basket ball works well when the smaller colleges get a shot at the big boys in March madness.

Anything where the competition is ring fenced to the strong counties, will create problems down the road, just as the backdoor system did
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Blowitupref on October 20, 2021, 04:31:07 PM
The number of votes each county gets at Saturdays congress.

Carlow 2
Dublin 5
Kildare 3
Kilkenny 2
Laois 3
Longford 2
Louth 2
Meath 3
Offaly 2
Westmeath 3
Wexford 3
Wicklow 2
Galway 4
Leitrim 2
Mayo 3
Roscommon 2
Sligo 2
Clare 3
Cork 5
Kerry 4
Limerick 4
Tipperary 4
Waterford 3
Antrim 3
Armagh 3
Cavan 2
Derry 2
Donegal 2
Down 3
Fermanagh 2
Monaghan 2
Tyrone 3

Overseas votes UK, Canada, Australia, Asia etc have 34
votes

Central Council 52 votes and 7 for former presidents

As I said a number of weeks ago I'd be surprised if Proposal B isn't voted in and I don't expect to be surprised. Larry McCarthy when giving his endorsement today talked about tweaking the glaring flaws, I'd wonder will such tweaks be discussed on the floor before voting?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: armaghniac on October 20, 2021, 04:38:04 PM
Overseas votes UK, Canada, Australia, Asia etc have 34
votes

These should not be allowed vote or even attend a meeting concerned with the structure of the game in Ireland.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: twohands!!! on October 20, 2021, 04:56:07 PM
 I can't help but wonder if one of the possible rumoured amendments to Option B is a middle tier championship after the end of the league stage.

The teams who finish in 6th, 7th, and 8th position in Division 1 and the teams that finish in 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th teams in Division 2 play a 8 team tournament intermediate championship.

With only 8 teams it could be run off quickly enough [less teams than both Sam Maguire and the Tailteann Cup]

Is there anyone who thinks this tweak is not an improvement to Option B?



Title: Re: Congress
Post by: yellowcard on October 20, 2021, 05:00:59 PM
I'd be surprised if proposal B is not passed especially now that the GAA president and director general have both spoken out in favour which will likely have a big sway with the overseas delegates. Haven't seen too many counties stating that they are voting to retain the status quo or maybe they are just afraid to say it publicly. 
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Blowitupref on October 20, 2021, 05:14:30 PM

Overseas votes UK, Canada, Australia, Asia etc have 34
votes

These should not be allowed vote or even attend a meeting concerned with the structure of the game in Ireland.

Debatable alright. The majority of overseas votes are expected to vote in favour of Proposal B.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Hound on October 20, 2021, 05:20:49 PM
5 out of 8 is fair enough but the 3/1/1 from the lower Divisions is what would irk team 6.
But the point of the 3/1/1 is to give the small teams a chance of reaching the knockout stages, rather than just the best 8 teams

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Hound on October 20, 2021, 05:31:19 PM

So lets be honest about the proposals and what they will establish. This will result in the cementing of a small number of counties to elite status.

Small / weaker counties will just have to focus on a secondary competition that will not generate any fanfare, unless you boot the minor final away from All Ireland final day and have the "A & B " final on the same day. But will that help the development of the games?

Lets also be clear, that one of the core foundations that drove the popularity of the GAA is over, the provincial championships. In time, we will lose the days out in Clones, the Derry - Tyrone, Armagh - Down, Armagh -Tyrone derby games will be lessened  and we will have one less meaningful competition to play for.

Lastly, county football is representative elite level sport. If your not up to the standard, then its up to the county board to fix it.

I see noting wrong with a ranking system, based on 1 - League, 2 provincial championships. Range the teams from 1 to 32, with play offs with the lower ranked teams to get the 32'nd spot. Then have an all ireland championship, straight knockout, no backdoor.

It will provide the div 1 teams the benefit of playing in the higher league, and the weaker teams still have a shot of playing the big boys in an knockout.

FA cup works well, and the smaller teams all focus on getting to the 4th or 5th round when the big teams join. NCAA basket ball works well when the smaller colleges get a shot at the big boys in March madness.

Anything where the competition is ring fenced to the strong counties, will create problems down the road, just as the backdoor system did
Have you read Proposal B?
You seem to completely misunderstand it.
For example, Leitrim who have no chance of winning Connacht, now have a realistic chance of getting to the All Ireland knockout stages by winning Div 4, or even Div 3 with a bit of progression. They still get to play Connacht, albeit they'll still get beaten out the gate, but after that they'll get 7 competitive summer games against similar level opponents and at least the opportunity for progression. There's no system that makes Leitrim All Ireland challengers, but at least Proposal B gives their players a reason to play. Hence the reason Leitrim management and players are strongly in favour. 

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Blowitupref on October 20, 2021, 05:46:33 PM

So lets be honest about the proposals and what they will establish. This will result in the cementing of a small number of counties to elite status.

Small / weaker counties will just have to focus on a secondary competition that will not generate any fanfare, unless you boot the minor final away from All Ireland final day and have the "A & B " final on the same day. But will that help the development of the games?

Lets also be clear, that one of the core foundations that drove the popularity of the GAA is over, the provincial championships. In time, we will lose the days out in Clones, the Derry - Tyrone, Armagh - Down, Armagh -Tyrone derby games will be lessened  and we will have one less meaningful competition to play for.

Lastly, county football is representative elite level sport. If your not up to the standard, then its up to the county board to fix it.

I see noting wrong with a ranking system, based on 1 - League, 2 provincial championships. Range the teams from 1 to 32, with play offs with the lower ranked teams to get the 32'nd spot. Then have an all ireland championship, straight knockout, no backdoor.

It will provide the div 1 teams the benefit of playing in the higher league, and the weaker teams still have a shot of playing the big boys in an knockout.

FA cup works well, and the smaller teams all focus on getting to the 4th or 5th round when the big teams join. NCAA basket ball works well when the smaller colleges get a shot at the big boys in March madness.

Anything where the competition is ring fenced to the strong counties, will create problems down the road, just as the backdoor system did
Have you read Proposal B?
You seem to completely misunderstand it.
For example, Leitrim who have no chance of winning Connacht, now have a realistic chance of getting to the All Ireland knockout stages by winning Div 4, or even Div 3 with a bit of progression. They still get to play Connacht, albeit they'll still get beaten out the gate, but after that they'll get 7 competitive summer games against similar level opponents and at least the opportunity for progression. There's no system that makes Leitrim All Ireland challengers, but at least Proposal B gives their players a reason to play. Hence the reason Leitrim management and players are strongly in favour.
The Connacht competition under the current proposal B is the FBD. They won that competition in 2013,2014 and it didn't do a lot to improve them nor has the NFL 7 games with similar level opponents.

If running with a league format for the championship HQ should look at bringing back the Div 1A 1B, 2A, 2B format.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Kickham csc on October 20, 2021, 07:16:16 PM

So lets be honest about the proposals and what they will establish. This will result in the cementing of a small number of counties to elite status.

Small / weaker counties will just have to focus on a secondary competition that will not generate any fanfare, unless you boot the minor final away from All Ireland final day and have the "A & B " final on the same day. But will that help the development of the games?

Lets also be clear, that one of the core foundations that drove the popularity of the GAA is over, the provincial championships. In time, we will lose the days out in Clones, the Derry - Tyrone, Armagh - Down, Armagh -Tyrone derby games will be lessened  and we will have one less meaningful competition to play for.

Lastly, county football is representative elite level sport. If your not up to the standard, then its up to the county board to fix it.

I see noting wrong with a ranking system, based on 1 - League, 2 provincial championships. Range the teams from 1 to 32, with play offs with the lower ranked teams to get the 32'nd spot. Then have an all ireland championship, straight knockout, no backdoor.

It will provide the div 1 teams the benefit of playing in the higher league, and the weaker teams still have a shot of playing the big boys in an knockout.

FA cup works well, and the smaller teams all focus on getting to the 4th or 5th round when the big teams join. NCAA basket ball works well when the smaller colleges get a shot at the big boys in March madness.

Anything where the competition is ring fenced to the strong counties, will create problems down the road, just as the backdoor system did
Have you read Proposal B?
You seem to completely misunderstand it.
For example, Leitrim who have no chance of winning Connacht, now have a realistic chance of getting to the All Ireland knockout stages by winning Div 4, or even Div 3 with a bit of progression. They still get to play Connacht, albeit they'll still get beaten out the gate, but after that they'll get 7 competitive summer games against similar level opponents and at least the opportunity for progression. There's no system that makes Leitrim All Ireland challengers, but at least Proposal B gives their players a reason to play. Hence the reason Leitrim management and players are strongly in favour.

I have read it, and the inclusion of this feature is basically an acknowledgement that there is a major problem with the proposal in regards to excluding the weaker counties from proper championship against the bigger counties. Throw them a bone and they'll vote for it.

Can someone please point out a situation in any other sport where the top 5 of Div 1 would qualify for a knockout, but the remaining 3 don't, but teams from a lower leagues will qualify.  And how long would this situation last.

Also 2 teams will qulify for the preliminary play offs, but 14 teams wont. That's the point. And what are the odds on having the same 2-3 teams winning the Div 3 or Div 4 leagues. Too weak for the higher league but too strong for the lower.

Also, how are the teams who finish 6,7,8 in Div 1 and 4,5,6,7,8, in Div two feel. They wont have any knockout championship football after the league.

I'm sorry, but the proposals are too fecking messy, and even a blind man can see future issues arising
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 20, 2021, 07:21:58 PM
From Armaghs point of view staying up in Division 1 was seen as progress. Under proposal B teams in Division 2, 3,4 will have a better chance to be one of the 10 teams in the AI series. Such progress will be gone to waste.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: twohands!!! on October 20, 2021, 07:39:52 PM

All these counties confirmed in favour of Option B
Meath
Tipperary
Kildare
Cork
Longford
Down
Clare
Louth
Westmeath
Offaly

Warwickshire supposedly leaning towards being in favour

Delegates decide on the day (and from looking at what they have said there's a reasonable chance all of these 4 might vote in favour of Option B)
Wexford - the following is from the Wexford GAA websiter "The Senior Football Team preferred option for 2022 is Proposal B. There was clear support from Club delegates for the need for change to the status quo. It was agreed that Wexford GAA’s delegates to Special Congress should consider the debate on Saturday and any proposed amendments and vote in the interest of change and Wexford GAA."
Laois
Waterford
Kerry

Individuals who have come out in favour of Option B
President Larry McCarthy and director general Tom Ryan (although he doesn't have a vote)
Ex-President Sean Kelly in favour
Ex-President John Horan called for a two year trial of Option B

The only people who have come out against it are the 4 Provincial Secretaries.

Roscommon and Sligo confirmed in favour of Option B

Still no county have come out in favour of Option A or the status quo.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 20, 2021, 08:22:35 PM
From Armaghs point of view staying up in Division 1 was seen as progress. Under proposal B teams in Division 2, 3,4 will have a better chance to be one of the 10 teams in the AI series. Such progress will be gone to waste.

If they finish in the bottom 2 they’ll be relegated to D2 for the following season, when they’ll then enjoy this “advantage”.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 20, 2021, 08:25:08 PM
Is there any sport in the world that allows every team into the knock out stages after the league stage is completed? Over 7 games the best teams will qualify and those that miss out can't have any excuses or blame anyone but themselves.

Also under option B the teams in Div 3 & 4 instead of having to play pointless qualifiers just to get hammered for a 2nd time get to compete for a trophy they have a realistic chance of winning. I think that's far more relevant than complaining about being punished for being the 6th best team in an 8 team League
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 20, 2021, 08:27:13 PM
Is there any sport in the world that allows every team into the knock out stages after the league stage is completed? Over 7 games the best teams will qualify and those that miss out can't have any excuses or blame anyone but themselves.

Also under option B the teams in Div 3 & 4 instead of having to play pointless qualifiers just to get hammered for a 2nd time get to compete for a trophy they have a realistic chance of winning. I think that's far more relevant than complaining about being punished for being the 6th best team in an 8 team League

No, no, no. Apparently we must feel sorry for anyone who can’t finish in the top half of their league.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 20, 2021, 08:33:54 PM
Is there any sport in the world that allows every team into the knock out stages after the league stage is completed? Over 7 games the best teams will qualify and those that miss out can't have any excuses or blame anyone but themselves.

Also under option B the teams in Div 3 & 4 instead of having to play pointless qualifiers just to get hammered for a 2nd time get to compete for a trophy they have a realistic chance of winning. I think that's far more relevant than complaining about being punished for being the 6th best team in an 8 team League
Eight of the ten best teams are probably in Division 1.  Blame themselves while ignoring the fact they will be playing in a far tougher divsion ah now..
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 20, 2021, 08:43:13 PM
Is there any sport in the world that allows every team into the knock out stages after the league stage is completed? Over 7 games the best teams will qualify and those that miss out can't have any excuses or blame anyone but themselves.

Also under option B the teams in Div 3 & 4 instead of having to play pointless qualifiers just to get hammered for a 2nd time get to compete for a trophy they have a realistic chance of winning. I think that's far more relevant than complaining about being punished for being the 6th best team in an 8 team League
Eight of the ten best teams are probably in Division 1.  Blame themselves while ignoring the fact they will be playing in a far tougher divsion ah now..

a division 4 team needs to win the league so whats tougher for a division 4 team to win their league or a  division 1 team  to come in top 5

The latter as all Division 1 teams would win Division 4.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 20, 2021, 09:13:33 PM
Is there any sport in the world that allows every team into the knock out stages after the league stage is completed? Over 7 games the best teams will qualify and those that miss out can't have any excuses or blame anyone but themselves.

Also under option B the teams in Div 3 & 4 instead of having to play pointless qualifiers just to get hammered for a 2nd time get to compete for a trophy they have a realistic chance of winning. I think that's far more relevant than complaining about being punished for being the 6th best team in an 8 team League
Eight of the ten best teams are probably in Division 1.  Blame themselves while ignoring the fact they will be playing in a far tougher divsion ah now..

The teams that finished above them are all better, but they should be allowed try again against them in the knock out stages? Sure put all the div 1 teams in the knock out stages then if that's the case. A line has to be drawn somewhere. Expecting a team to be the 5th best to qualify isn't unreasonable
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Harold Disgracey on October 20, 2021, 09:54:24 PM
Armagh voted against both proposals.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 20, 2021, 10:01:43 PM
It’s just a wee touch short sighted  and paranoid from Armagh. Their best chance of winning an AI in the next 5 years is so much about them being in the qualifiers…. but teams in it around their level like Galway, Roscommon, Mayo, Cork… not being there to take them out.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: yellowcard on October 20, 2021, 10:24:08 PM
It’s just a wee touch short sighted  and paranoid from Armagh. Their best chance of winning an AI in the next 5 years is so much about them being in the qualifiers…. but teams in it around their level like Galway, Roscommon, Mayo, Cork… not being there to take them out.

I think it’s a strategic decision based on where Armagh are at the minute. They are in division one of the league but unlikely to finish in the top 5 to make the quarter finals under the new proposals.

With the existing system they have a decent chance of competing for a provincial title and if that fails then they would have a decent chance of making the quarter finals depending on the draw.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Cunny Funt on October 20, 2021, 10:55:27 PM
It's fairly telling when the former, current presidents and director general are speaking publicly about the obvious flaws in proposal B however it does look like proposal B warts and all will be voted in on Saturday and it will be February Congress before such flaws are addressed like giving the 6th place team in Div 1 at least a play off game and some sort of connection of the provincial league to the All-Ireland championship, 4 home games for the provincial winner might be a small compromise.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Owenmoresider on October 20, 2021, 11:53:49 PM

All these counties confirmed in favour of Option B
Meath
Tipperary
Kildare
Cork
Longford
Down
Clare
Louth
Westmeath
Offaly

Warwickshire supposedly leaning towards being in favour

Delegates decide on the day (and from looking at what they have said there's a reasonable chance all of these 4 might vote in favour of Option B)
Wexford - the following is from the Wexford GAA websiter "The Senior Football Team preferred option for 2022 is Proposal B. There was clear support from Club delegates for the need for change to the status quo. It was agreed that Wexford GAA’s delegates to Special Congress should consider the debate on Saturday and any proposed amendments and vote in the interest of change and Wexford GAA."
Laois
Waterford
Kerry

Individuals who have come out in favour of Option B
President Larry McCarthy and director general Tom Ryan (although he doesn't have a vote)
Ex-President Sean Kelly in favour
Ex-President John Horan called for a two year trial of Option B

The only people who have come out against it are the 4 Provincial Secretaries.

Roscommon and Sligo confirmed in favour of Option B

Still no county have come out in favour of Option A or the status quo.
Where was that confirmed?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: An Watcher on October 21, 2021, 07:01:57 AM
Has anyone come out in favour of option A at thus stage
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 21, 2021, 09:12:54 AM
Armagh voted against both proposals.

As have Fermanagh according to their twitter last night.

Has anyone come out in favour of option A at thus stage

Apparantly not, so it's dead in the water it seems.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 21, 2021, 09:20:46 AM
Saturday will be a great day for football.

Association football and rugby football.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Tubberman on October 21, 2021, 09:27:29 AM
Armagh voted against both proposals.

As have Fermanagh according to their twitter last night.

Has anyone come out in favour of option A at thus stage

Apparantly not, so it's dead in the water it seems.

Galway going against B as well
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: johnnycool on October 21, 2021, 09:34:56 AM
Surprised they allow Kilkenny to vote on this.

 ;)
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:19:25 AM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 21, 2021, 11:32:24 AM


I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 


The absolute arrogance of that comnent is breathtaking!!!!
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:37:04 AM
Genuinely not being arrogant.  You and I might understand it, but there are plenty voting on this that will not understand it and it won't matter to them one iota - some in Ireland and some overseas. 
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 21, 2021, 11:37:26 AM
You’re right APM.

Let’s devise a competition format instead whereby any team that says “we want in” immediately qualifies, regardless of form, regardless of their potential. Because you know, it’s really really important to play knockout football, especially when you’ve no chance of winning.  Then let’s make sure that when any team is beaten, they get back in again. Because you know, every team has off days.

That’ll be great craic that will.

Honest to f**k. The mind boggles that the people who object to option B, are doing so to protect a provincial competition format that has, for 20 years, produced a most unsatisfactory outcome.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 21, 2021, 11:38:23 AM
Genuinely not being arrogant.  You and I might understand it, but there are plenty voting on this that will not understand it and it won't matter to them one iota - some in Ireland and some overseas.

Lol. Your opinion of career administrators couldn’t be any lower.

My guess is you’ve never been involved in administration.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:39:13 AM
You’re right APM.

Let’s devise a competition format instead whereby any team that says “we want in” immediately qualifies, regardless of form, regardless of their potential. Because you know, it’s really really important to play knockout football, especially when you’ve no chance of winning.  Then let’s make sure that when any team is beaten, they get back in again. Because you know, every team has off days.

That’ll be great craic that will.

Honest to f**k. The mind boggles that the people who object to option B, are doing so to protect a provincial competition format that has, for 20 years, produced a most unsatisfactory outcome.

Wobbler,
Where did I say that I agree with the existing system, which is badly broken. 

Christ, we're being given a choice between three different colours of shite. 
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: tiempo on October 21, 2021, 11:42:05 AM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
  • Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
  • Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
  • All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 21, 2021, 11:43:57 AM
APM.

Here’s the rub.

Option B. If nothing else, allows the Association’s blue riband competition to break free from the shackles of an unequal provincially-led driven format that was designed to suit proximity in a bygone era.

Once that clean break happens, then the GAA will have an opportunity to look at models and formats.

But while it remains, we won’t. We are just stuck. To a bygone concept.

When you rail against Option B, you rail against change. It’s that simple.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: DuffleKing on October 21, 2021, 11:44:27 AM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
  • Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
  • Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
  • All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Why is point 1 here relevant to evolving to a structure of best fit for everyone?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: APM on October 21, 2021, 11:45:39 AM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
  • Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
  • Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
  • All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2. 
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 21, 2021, 11:47:42 AM
So let’s make sure that everyone who has made a decent account of themselves the previous year, gets a free pass into the latter stages of the competition this year?

Is the purpose of your ideal completion to reward mediocrity? Or is it a mad hope that if you add enough mediocre teams to a competition, then one will magically see its standards rise?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 21, 2021, 11:56:59 AM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
  • Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
  • Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
  • All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.

every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: APM on October 21, 2021, 12:00:04 PM
So let’s make sure that everyone who has made a decent account of themselves the previous year, gets a free pass into the latter stages of the competition this year?

Is the purpose of your ideal completion to reward mediocrity? Or is it a mad hope that if you add enough mediocre teams to a competition, then one will magically see its standards rise?

At least those teams have been playing at Division 1 level that year - surely you acknowledge there are often fine lines between relegation and staying in Division 1.  Not that long since Cork were relegated on 6 points from Division 1. Donegal, Mayo and Monaghan also finished on 6 points in the same year.  In the same year, Monaghan and Cork wouldn't have qualified for the AI Series on score difference. 

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: APM on October 21, 2021, 12:01:44 PM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
  • Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
  • Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
  • All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.

every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland

Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team. 
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 21, 2021, 12:07:57 PM
We keep hearing that the Provincial Championships will die if they're not linked as Qualifiers to the AI series .
Doesn't say much for them if they can't stand on their own 2 feet!
The National League had stood on its own feet for over 90 years and indeed in recent years has become the best competition with more relevance to most Counties than Provincials or the AI.

On the substantive issue I'm in favour of B as it's the best option on offer.
Of course it's not perfect but time to bite the bullet.

PS excluding 6th in D1 makes for a more competitive competition.
Take the hurling..  if 4 of the 5 in Munster and Leinster were going through it would dilute the thing altogether.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: tiempo on October 21, 2021, 12:14:05 PM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
  • Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
  • Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
  • All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.

every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland

Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team.

Relegated from the race for Sam, simples
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 21, 2021, 12:31:05 PM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
  • Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
  • Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
  • All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.

every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland

Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team.

As they're not good enough. Why should a team be rewarded just for avoiding relegation? You'd be playing the league games not decide who gets through but simply just to see who gets relegated. Maybe offer them a play off for the final spot against the Div 2 side if you want but if you can't finish above your rivals in the league why should you deserve a place in knock out stages?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: APM on October 21, 2021, 12:40:41 PM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
  • Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
  • Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
  • All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.

every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland

Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team.

As they're not good enough. Why should a team be rewarded just for avoiding relegation? You'd be playing the league games not decide who gets through but simply just to see who gets relegated. Maybe offer them a play off for the final spot against the Div 2 side if you want but if you can't finish above your rivals in the league why should you deserve a place in knock out stages?

Your response reads like Option B is written in tablets of stone, but it is completely arbitrary.  So only the top 5 are good enough to compete for Sam, but sixth is not.  However, the 3rd placed team in Division 2 (let's say Westmeath) gets into a preliminary quarter final against the Division 3 winner (let's say Louth) to compete for a place in the All Ireland QF.  Whilst a team like Monaghan, who has been competitive in Division 1 and has stayed in it, is dumped out of the competition.  Who has the better chance of being competitive in the Quarter Finals.  A team that has been competitive in Division 1 or one that couldn't even get out of Division 2. 

Edit:  If your objective is to make it to the AIQF, you actually have a better chance if you are in Division 2 than in Division 1.  Division 1 will be dog-eat-dog and Division 2 is a much easier route.  Chances are you'll be hammered when you get there because you've only being playing Division 2 football. 
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: APM on October 21, 2021, 12:50:50 PM
Someone explain to me why the 3rd best team in Division two has a straightforward route to the AIQF (by beating a team in a lower division) and the sixth best team in Division 1, playing against the best teams in the country and has been competitive enough to stay in the division, has no route to qualification. 
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 21, 2021, 12:59:05 PM
Someone explain to me why the 3rd best team in Division two has a straightforward route to the AIQF (by beating a team in a lower division) and the sixth best team in Division 1, playing against the best teams in the country and has been competitive enough to stay in the division, has no route to qualification.
Someone explain to me why a team that finished outside the top half of the league during competition stage 1, deserves a place in competition stage 2.

——

Get your head around the concept that the league is part of the championship.

It’s much easier to accept how things could unfold, when you accept that performance is measured fron day 1 of the competition.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: APM on October 21, 2021, 01:23:53 PM
Wobbler, you have been on this board a long time and I have a lot of time for you, but you are avoiding the question. 

Someone explain to me why the 3rd best team in Division two has a straightforward route to the AIQF (by beating a team in a lower division) and the sixth best team in Division 1, playing against the best teams in the country and has been competitive enough to stay in the division, has no route to qualification


In general:

If the problem that you are trying to solve is the easy route to the business end of the Championship for the top teams in Munster and Leinster, I can see how it does that. 

If you are trying to close they yawning gap between the top 3 or 4 and the rest, then I'm afraid this will only make the gap wider. 

If you are trying to put a stop to Dublin, Kerry and Tyrone doling out hammerings to Wicklows, Waterfords and Antrims, then it will achieve that if you exclude the meaningless pre-season provincial tournaments and anyway, the the strong teams will probably field a second string in these competitions.  However, Option B builds in the guarantee of one sided games at the business end of the championship. Take 2019, you would have had Fermanagh and Westmeath slugging it out in a preliminary round to qualify for an AIQF against Dublin potentially.

If you are trying to do away with the provincial championships, well done.  This achieves just that.  It won't be missed most probably anywhere but Ulster, but then again, most of the delegates voting on this aren't going to prioritise Ulster. 

 
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 21, 2021, 01:38:12 PM
The wise old elders decision makers

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40725921.html
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 21, 2021, 01:53:01 PM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
  • Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
  • Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
  • All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.

every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland

Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team.

As they're not good enough. Why should a team be rewarded just for avoiding relegation? You'd be playing the league games not decide who gets through but simply just to see who gets relegated. Maybe offer them a play off for the final spot against the Div 2 side if you want but if you can't finish above your rivals in the league why should you deserve a place in knock out stages?

Your response reads like Option B is written in tablets of stone, but it is completely arbitrary.  So only the top 5 are good enough to compete for Sam, but sixth is not.  However, the 3rd placed team in Division 2 (let's say Westmeath) gets into a preliminary quarter final against the Division 3 winner (let's say Louth) to compete for a place in the All Ireland QF.  Whilst a team like Monaghan, who has been competitive in Division 1 and has stayed in it, is dumped out of the competition.  Who has the better chance of being competitive in the Quarter Finals.  A team that has been competitive in Division 1 or one that couldn't even get out of Division 2. 

Edit:  If your objective is to make it to the AIQF, you actually have a better chance if you are in Division 2 than in Division 1.  Division 1 will be dog-eat-dog and Division 2 is a much easier route.  Chances are you'll be hammered when you get there because you've only being playing Division 2 football.

Teams in div 1 have 7 games to finish in the top 5. If they can't do that out of an 8 team league then they don't deserve to go through. You seem to think everyone should compete in the knock out stages. Do you agree with teams being relegated or is that unfair as well? You have to have a cut off point somewhere. If you allowed the top 6 teams to qualify in you'd have people complaining what about the 7th placed side. There is no format that will please everyone, but this is a step in the right direction and a move forward from the current farce.

One of the object of these proposals is to give more games to more teams and to bring some fairness to the championship. While you're obsessed about div 1 teams there are 24 other sides in 3 other divisions, many of whom who've have been screwed over for decades now by the out of date provincial system. These teams deserve a break far more than the elite teams and if they get more out of the new system then that's a good thing
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 21, 2021, 02:02:43 PM
Wobbler, you have been on this board a long time and I have a lot of time for you, but you are avoiding the question. 

Someone explain to me why the 3rd best team in Division two has a straightforward route to the AIQF (by beating a team in a lower division) and the sixth best team in Division 1, playing against the best teams in the country and has been competitive enough to stay in the division, has no route to qualification


In general:

If the problem that you are trying to solve is the easy route to the business end of the Championship for the top teams in Munster and Leinster, I can see how it does that. 

If you are trying to close they yawning gap between the top 3 or 4 and the rest, then I'm afraid this will only make the gap wider. 

If you are trying to put a stop to Dublin, Kerry and Tyrone doling out hammerings to Wicklows, Waterfords and Antrims, then it will achieve that if you exclude the meaningless pre-season provincial tournaments and anyway, the the strong teams will probably field a second string in these competitions.  However, Option B builds in the guarantee of one sided games at the business end of the championship. Take 2019, you would have had Fermanagh and Westmeath slugging it out in a preliminary round to qualify for an AIQF against Dublin potentially.

If you are trying to do away with the provincial championships, well done.  This achieves just that.  It won't be missed most probably anywhere but Ulster, but then again, most of the delegates voting on this aren't going to prioritise Ulster.

Leinster was competitive until they killed it by financing Dublin. 6 teams won it since 1997 (7 teams if you count Louth, as they technically won it) . Only 3 teams didn’t make the final

So, 20 teams in Leinster/Ulster, that’s more  than half the counties were in competitive championships. Plus Connacht was usually competitive too. The provincials aren’t the issue. Financing Dublin was.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 21, 2021, 02:08:39 PM
How many Leinster teams made AI Semis after the Qualifiers came in?
No matter how much Finance Dublin got it wouldn't have stopped other Leinster teams progressing to the closing stages IF THEY WERE GOOD ENOUGH!!
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: APM on October 21, 2021, 02:11:41 PM
Option B is completely and utterly stupid.  Why any county, particularly an Ulster county would vote for it is beyond me. 

1.  The Ulster Championship will be as meaningless as any pre-season competition.  They are not doing away with the McKenna Cup, they are changing the name of the McKenna Cup to the Anglo-Celt Cup and doing away with the Ulster Championship as we know it.

2. How on earth can they justify a format where only the top 5 teams in Division 1 qualify and the 6th team doesn't.  If Kildare beat Dublin in this year's league to stay in Division 1 in 6th place, they will not qualify for the All-Ireland series. 

3. There will be fewer games but there still will be just as many one-sided contests.  If Fermanagh win Division 4, they could end up playing Dublin? So the sixth place team in Division 1 cannot play in the all-Ireland series, but the Division 4 winner could qualify?

I guarantee, people haven't a clue what they are voting for and do not understand it. 

I cannot get over the stupidity of this proposal. Always ask the question, what is the problem you are trying to solve!! Does this solve the problem? - Absolutely not.  Teams will qualify for the all-ireland that haven't a hope in hell.  Teams that have realistic ambitions to push onto the next level will have their seasons cut short, despite staying in Division 1.  This will only benefit the elite and the gap between the top 4 and the rest will only get wider.

Do they seriously expect tens of thousands to attend a meaningless Ulster championship played as a pre-season competition.   

This entire proposal is being promoted on spin. Someone should be made to stand up and explain the logic of every aspect of it at Congress, and they would fail miserably. 

I meant to add obvious things that should have been properly considered and are not:
  • Seeding - completely obvious way to deal with one sided contests
  • Provincial winners and runners up to get a place in a preliminary play-off - just like the Division 3/4 teams
  • All Division 1 teams and promoted Division 2 teams to be included in the All-Ireland Series - teams often get relegated by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season

Passionate post though don't agree with much of it

Why reward provincial runners up?

I think Provincial winners should be guaranteed a place in race for Sam, that would be the other way the team finishing 6th in D1 can avoid the grade 2 competition, but failing that they've earned their place in grade 2

Grade 1 open to all teams
Grade 2 open to all teams

Stratified merit based system, no safety net runners up or relegated teams

That's better - at least we're talking about the issue now and not my arrogance and involvement or otherwise in administration.

To be fair, I don't disagree on the runners up point re provinces. 

With respect to the relegated teams, there have been years when relegated teams have given a decent account of themselves in the championship.  Particularly when you had Roscommon yo-yoing between 1&2.

every team is already in the all ireland the league is the all ireland

Lots of responses here, but no-one has told me why it is a great idea to exclude the 6th placed Division 1 team.

As they're not good enough. Why should a team be rewarded just for avoiding relegation? You'd be playing the league games not decide who gets through but simply just to see who gets relegated. Maybe offer them a play off for the final spot against the Div 2 side if you want but if you can't finish above your rivals in the league why should you deserve a place in knock out stages?

Your response reads like Option B is written in tablets of stone, but it is completely arbitrary.  So only the top 5 are good enough to compete for Sam, but sixth is not.  However, the 3rd placed team in Division 2 (let's say Westmeath) gets into a preliminary quarter final against the Division 3 winner (let's say Louth) to compete for a place in the All Ireland QF.  Whilst a team like Monaghan, who has been competitive in Division 1 and has stayed in it, is dumped out of the competition.  Who has the better chance of being competitive in the Quarter Finals.  A team that has been competitive in Division 1 or one that couldn't even get out of Division 2. 

Edit:  If your objective is to make it to the AIQF, you actually have a better chance if you are in Division 2 than in Division 1.  Division 1 will be dog-eat-dog and Division 2 is a much easier route.  Chances are you'll be hammered when you get there because you've only being playing Division 2 football.

Teams in div 1 have 7 games to finish in the top 5. If they can't do that out of an 8 team league then they don't deserve to go through. You seem to think everyone should compete in the knock out stages. Do you agree with teams being relegated or is that unfair as well? You have to have a cut off point somewhere. If you allowed the top 6 teams to qualify in you'd have people complaining what about the 7th placed side. There is no format that will please everyone, but this is a step in the right direction and a move forward from the current farce.

One of the object of these proposals is to give more games to more teams and to bring some fairness to the championship. While you're obsessed about div 1 teams there are 24 other sides in 3 other divisions, many of whom who've have been screwed over for decades now by the out of date provincial system. These teams deserve a break far more than the elite teams and if they get more out of the new system then that's a good thing

So the third placed team in Division 2 that has played Division 2 opposition throughout the competition is more deserving of a place in the QFs than the 6th placed team in Division 1.  Take 2017 for example.  Tyrone finish in 6th place in Division 1 on 7 points, drawing with Dublin in the process. They are less worthy of progression into the knockout stages than Meath who gained 9 points in Division 2.  Or 2016 when Monaghan finished 6th in Division 1 on 6 points (along with four other teams).  They are less worthy of a place in the knockout stages than Galway who finished 3rd in Division 2 on 7 points. 

If you are looking at Division 1 as the place for rising teams to push on, then you give them the opportunity to play in the knockout stages if they stay in the Division.  A yo yo team is better off in Division 2. 
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 21, 2021, 02:23:38 PM
How many Leinster teams made AI Semis after the Qualifiers came in?
No matter how much Finance Dublin got it wouldn't have stopped other Leinster teams progressing to the closing stages IF THEY WERE GOOD ENOUGH!!

The point is as a standalone competition. Leinster had 6 (7 really) different winners, who would have made the AI semis if there was no qualifier system. 4 Connacht teams too, and 7 Ulster.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 21, 2021, 02:30:43 PM
Someone explain to me why the 3rd best team in Division two has a straightforward route to the AIQF (by beating a team in a lower division) and the sixth best team in Division 1, playing against the best teams in the country and has been competitive enough to stay in the division, has no route to qualification.
Someone explain to me why a team that finished outside the top half of the league during competition stage 1, deserves a place in competition stage 2.

——

Get your head around the concept that the league is part of the championship.

It’s much easier to accept how things could unfold, when you accept that performance is measured fron day 1 of the competition.

Maybe Wobbler could explain why he holds two directly contradictory opinions?

He supports the proposal that those who finish outside the top half of Division 1 do not qualify for the knockout stages.

But he also supports the idea of all eight teams in Division 1 qualifying for the knockout stages.

And the top 6 in Division 2.

Based on their performances from the previous year.

ie. he wants a completely pointless format full of challenge matches.

It's a bit illogical that teams 6 to 8 and 11 to 16 can't play in the AI but teams 17 and 25 can.
If the D3 and 4 winners must take part I would suggest top 6 D1,  top 4 D2 plus D3 and D4 winners.

I’d agree. The difference between the teams in finishing positions 5, 6 and 7 would often be trivial amounts scoring difference; and smashing a team to death at least once a season becomes paramount.

But I’d also suggest: all 8 in D1, top 6 in D2, top 1 in D3 and top 1 in D4.

This way:

- the best 8 teams from the previous season (ie D1 at the start of the year) all qualify for the playoffs, ensuring higher standards.


Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 21, 2021, 02:36:59 PM
When you rail against Option B, you rail against change. It’s that simple.
Change is a meaningless buzzword.

It assumes an iron law that all change is good.

The world doesn't work like that.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: naka on October 21, 2021, 02:51:50 PM
so if b is accepted  after the league ends
6,7,8 in division 1
4,5,6,7,8 in division 2 have no further games whilst everyone sles is in a play-off .
seems a little unfair
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 21, 2021, 02:54:00 PM
APM.

Here’s the rub.

Option B. If nothing else, allows the Association’s blue riband competition to break free from the shackles of an unequal provincially-led driven format that was designed to suit proximity in a bygone era.

Once that clean break happens, then the GAA will have an opportunity to look at models and formats.

But while it remains, we won’t. We are just stuck. To a bygone concept.

When you rail against Option B, you rail against change. It’s that simple.

Hmm sounds familiar


Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 21, 2021, 03:09:51 PM
Sid you’re (somewhat deliberately) confusing my preferred approach if given a blank canvas, and what I would strongly believe is the best of the only 3 approaches that are currently on the table.

Change isn’t always a good thing. But the choice we are facing is one of change or one of stagnation. The provincial championship concept is stagnant. Voting to remove them from the AI championship opens up potential for refinement. Retaining them closes the door.

Benny, this has no parallel with the complex, life or death decisions that brings the worst out of people on social media. It’s not even slightly complicated. If we wish to wed our premier competition and to an archaic and convoluted structure, it is a choice to rail against progress.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Blowitupref on October 21, 2021, 03:31:23 PM
so if b is accepted  after the league ends
6,7,8 in division 1
4,5,6,7,8 in division 2 have no further games whilst everyone sles is in a play-off .
seems a little unfair

Just a little and I can only imagine the debate on here and elsewhere once the league format is completed.

Into the June All Ireland series will be (going by league standings) 1st, 2nd, 3rd 4th, 5th, 9th,10th, 11th, 17th and 25th

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 21, 2021, 03:34:42 PM
Do league winners get a trophy or is the league now seen as part of the championship will the league be called the all ireland championship or still national league
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 21, 2021, 03:37:06 PM

Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10.  #GAA
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 21, 2021, 03:40:12 PM
that guy just said champions league constantly delivers great games i disagree lots of group stage games are one sided and the last match day has a  lot of dead rubbers and a lot of 2 legged games are over after the first leg on rare occasion  you get a  team overcome a massive first leg deficit
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: naka on October 21, 2021, 04:00:17 PM

Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10.  #GAA
how about
6,7,8, in division 1
4,5,6,  in division 2 add in winners div 3, winners div4
play each other
4 teams left in payoff
they play to qualify for quarters

7& 8 in div 2 go into the tailtean cup
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: APM on October 21, 2021, 04:01:11 PM

Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10.  #GAA

He's going in the right direction, but...

The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2.  But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out.  Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth.  Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation.  In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points.  The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points. 

My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2. 
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: tiempo on October 21, 2021, 04:13:23 PM

Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10.  #GAA

He's going in the right direction, but...

The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2.  But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out.  Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth.  Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation.  In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points.  The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points. 

My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2.

You're right, but I'll argue the toss anyway

Relegation = demotion to Grade 2

The only departure I would like is that Provincial winners should be in the race for Sam, so if you win the Province and finish bottom of D1 then you're relegated to D2 for the following year but in the Sam

If you win the Sam, you're still in D2

Could the imbalance between having 3 or 4 home games be sorted by having a Divisional weekend in Croke

3 home, 3 away, 1 in Croke

4 Div 4 games in Croke one Saturday
4 Div 3 games in Croke the next
4 Div 2 the next
4 Div 1 the next

or something like that, thinking from a marketing and player experience point of view it could work quite well

What kind of numbers would a quadruple header Super Saturday draw per division do you reckon?

Of course it could be split across 2 days, say the Fri/Sat, but feck that, any opportunity to get close to a full house should be explored

Instead of Super 8 your Super Saturday is then getting to a place where players are being treated with a lot more parity of esteem and respect for their efforts
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Stall the Bailer on October 21, 2021, 04:47:43 PM
One of the best things about championship is the straight knockout. Proposal B means only 10 teams get to enjoy this. This is not enough. Some teams will get a go in the tier two comp, but the remaining teams will not. All teams should have a knockout chance either for Sam Maguire or the tier two comp. League format will benefit the Counties with a big panel with strength in depth. Mid tier counties who could cause an upset won't get the chance in a one off. Sorry it is a pure effort of an improvement
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: APM on October 21, 2021, 04:51:29 PM

Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10.  #GAA

He's going in the right direction, but...

The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2.  But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out.  Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth.  Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation.  In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points.  The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points. 

My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2.

You're right, but I'll argue the toss anyway

Relegation = demotion to Grade 2

The only departure I would like is that Provincial winners should be in the race for Sam, so if you win the Province and finish bottom of D1 then you're relegated to D2 for the following year but in the Sam

If you win the Sam, you're still in D2

Could the imbalance between having 3 or 4 home games be sorted by having a Divisional weekend in Croke

3 home, 3 away, 1 in Croke

4 Div 4 games in Croke one Saturday
4 Div 3 games in Croke the next
4 Div 2 the next
4 Div 1 the next

or something like that, thinking from a marketing and player experience point of view it could work quite well

What kind of numbers would a quadruple header Super Saturday draw per division do you reckon?

Of course it could be split across 2 days, say the Fri/Sat, but feck that, any opportunity to get close to a full house should be explored

Instead of Super 8 your Super Saturday is then getting to a place where players are being treated with a lot more parity of esteem and respect for their efforts

Now you're talking!

I could get on board with that.  Ps. on the provincial issue, for those that complain about Kerry and Dublin getting away with a couple of easy games to get into the AIQF; let's face it, 9 years out of 10 they will both be in the top 6 in Division 1. In fact 2008 was the only year in the last 20 that Dublin & Kerry weren't in Division 1.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 21, 2021, 05:00:40 PM
Sid you’re (somewhat deliberately) confusing my preferred approach if given a blank canvas, and what I would strongly believe is the best of the only 3 approaches that are currently on the table.

Change isn’t always a good thing. But the choice we are facing is one of change or one of stagnation. The provincial championship concept is stagnant. Voting to remove them from the AI championship opens up potential for refinement. Retaining them closes the door.

Benny, this has no parallel with the complex, life or death decisions that brings the worst out of people on social media. It’s not even slightly complicated. If we wish to wed our premier competition and to an archaic and convoluted structure, it is a choice to rail against progress.
I haven't confused anything.

You expressed the view that all eight teams in Division 1 to qualify (which incidentally would render the entire league stage all but meaningless).

Now you're expressing the view that any team outside the top four in Division 1 should not qualify, and forcefully arguing for this premise.

"Change" is not an argument. You have to make a case for why change is good.

This debate has been running for at least a month now, and to me the case against change is far more convincing.

The promised upsides seem utterly fanciful, and the very large potential downsides seem obvious.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: APM on October 21, 2021, 05:00:52 PM
One of the best things about championship is the straight knockout. Proposal B means only 10 teams get to enjoy this. This is not enough. Some teams will get a go in the tier two comp, but the remaining teams will not. All teams should have a knockout chance either for Sam Maguire or the tier two comp. League format will benefit the Counties with a big panel with strength in depth. Mid tier counties who could cause an upset won't get the chance in a one off. Sorry it is a pure effort of an improvement

Agree with this also. 
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 21, 2021, 05:15:55 PM

Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10.  #GAA

He's going in the right direction, but...

The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2.  But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out.  Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth.  Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation.  In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points.  The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points. 

My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2.
I don't see how he's going in the right direction. Six teams qualifying from an eight team division makes for a largely pointless league stage, even more pointless than it would be under the existing Proposal B.

If you were advocating a league as championship, the best way to do it would be the old Division 1A/1B/2A/2B format.

The top 3 from each Division would qualify automatically for the All-Ireland quarter-finals.

4th in 1A would play off against 4th in 1B for a place in the quarter-finals.

The winner of 2A would play the winner of 2B for a place in the All-Ireland Quarter-Finals (both would be promoted but only one would qualify for the quarter-finals). This would double as your Tailteann Cup final and it would be highly meaningful as it would be a knockout championship game in the race for Sam Maguire.

The remaining two promotion spots would be decided by an English Championship style play-off competition.

The gap between the two Division 1s and the two Division 2s would be more bridgeable.

The provincial championships played pre-season would have an All-Ireland element tagged on with the final on Paddy's Day.

And it would mean you could abolish the split season, introduce defined club windows in May and June, and return the All-Ireland to its rightful place in September.

I could see a decent argument for that.

But not for Proposal B as is, or for any Divisions 1-4 format.



Title: Re: Congress
Post by: twohands!!! on October 21, 2021, 05:32:56 PM
@BMacAnalyst on Twitter




Thread: GAA Championship Proposals

The past 10 years show a massive disparity in the number of Championship games played by each county.

This graphic shows the number of games various teams had over the last 10 years.
https://twitter.com/BMacAnalyst/status/1450805538472828937/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/BMacAnalyst/status/1450805538472828937/photo/1)

15/32 teams have played >50% less games than the Top teams; Mayo & Dublin.

From the graphic we could argue 3 tiers have existed since 2011:
1. Mayo-Kildare
2. Monaghan-Longford
3. Down-London

Proposal B with a league based championship could help fix the imbalances in games played.

This graphic shows a forecast of championship games each county could play in the next 10 years based on current standings.

https://twitter.com/BMacAnalyst/status/1450805542818025478/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/BMacAnalyst/status/1450805542818025478/photo/1)

Note: Not a statistical tested model.

The difference in number games played between the Top team (Kerry) and Bottom team (Cork) is approx* 21%.

https://twitter.com/BMacAnalyst/status/1450805549122076680?s=20 (https://twitter.com/BMacAnalyst/status/1450805549122076680?s=20)

It was 69% from 2011-2022.

The worst effected team; Cork could still play 10 more Championship games by 2031 than in the past 10 years.

The current middle tier group: Arm, Mon, Kil, Cork, Gal, Ros, Clare, Meath will be greatest impacted.

However they could play approx* 35-50% more championship games than the past 10 years.

Tailteann Cup could allow the lower ranked teams to play approx 50-75% more championship games than the previous 10 years.

The Top teams could play approx 30% more games.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 21, 2021, 05:36:07 PM

Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10.  #GAA

He's going in the right direction, but...

The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2.  But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out.  Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth.  Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation.  In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points.  The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points. 

My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2.
I don't see how he's going in the right direction. Six teams qualifying from an eight team division makes for a largely pointless league stage, even more pointless than it would be under the existing Proposal B.

If you were advocating a league as championship, the best way to do it would be the old Division 1A/1B/2A/2B format.

The top 3 from each Division would qualify automatically for the All-Ireland quarter-finals.

4th in 1A would play off against 4th in 1B for a place in the quarter-finals.

The winner of 2A would play the winner of 2B for a place in the All-Ireland Quarter-Finals (both would be promoted but only one would qualify for the quarter-finals). This would double as your Tailteann Cup final and it would be highly meaningful as it would be a knockout championship game in the race for Sam Maguire.

The remaining two promotion spots would be decided by an English Championship style play-off competition.

The gap between the two Division 1s and the two Division 2s would be more bridgeable.

The provincial championships played pre-season would have an All-Ireland element tagged on with the final on Paddy's Day.

And it would mean you could abolish the split season, introduce defined club windows in May and June, and return the All-Ireland to its rightful place in September.

I could see a decent argument for that.

But not for Proposal B as is, or for any Divisions 1-4 format.

Under this format, here's a sample calendar.

January 9 Provincial Round Robin 1
January 16  Provincial Round Robin 2
January 23 Provincial Round Robin 3
January 30 Provincial Round Robin 4
February 6 Provincial Round Robin 5
February 13 Provincial Semi-Finals
February 20 Provincial Finals
February 27 Blank
March 6 All-Ireland Cup Semi-Finals
March 17 All-Ireland Cup Final
-------
April 10 NFL 1
April 17 NFL 2
April 24 Blank
May 1 Club Championship 1
May 8 Club Championhip 2
May 15 NFL 3
May 22 NFL 4
May 29 NFL 5
June 5 Blank
June 12 Club Championship 3
June 19 Club Championship 4
June 26 NFL 6
July 3 NFL 7
July 10 NFL 8
July 24 All-Ireland Preliminary Quarter-Finals
July 31 All-Ireland Quarter-Finals
August 21 and 28 All-Ireland Football Semi-Finals
September 11 Final

Club championship semi-finals and finals to follow
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 21, 2021, 05:55:02 PM

Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10.  #GAA

He's going in the right direction, but...

The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2.  But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out.  Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth.  Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation.  In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points.  The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points. 

My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2.

You're right, but I'll argue the toss anyway

Relegation = demotion to Grade 2

The only departure I would like is that Provincial winners should be in the race for Sam, so if you win the Province and finish bottom of D1 then you're relegated to D2 for the following year but in the Sam

If you win the Sam, you're still in D2

Could the imbalance between having 3 or 4 home games be sorted by having a Divisional weekend in Croke

3 home, 3 away, 1 in Croke

4 Div 4 games in Croke one Saturday
4 Div 3 games in Croke the next
4 Div 2 the next
4 Div 1 the next

or something like that, thinking from a marketing and player experience point of view it could work quite well

What kind of numbers would a quadruple header Super Saturday draw per division do you reckon?

Of course it could be split across 2 days, say the Fri/Sat, but feck that, any opportunity to get close to a full house should be explored

Instead of Super 8 your Super Saturday is then getting to a place where players are being treated with a lot more parity of esteem and respect for their efforts

While everyone is putting forward theories none of them are up for review in congress. It's either option A,B or stick with what we have. People may not like option b, but it's an improvement on the current system. I can't see why anyone (other than provincial councils) would want to keep the current system as that's what will happen at the weekend if options and b don't get 60% support.

No one is claiming option b is perfect but for those who don't think it should be passed this weekend might suggest why we should keep things as they are. It'll be at least two years of the current broken system if the current proposals aren't passed.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: twohands!!! on October 21, 2021, 06:01:49 PM
@BMacAnalyst on Twitter




Thread: GAA Championship Proposals

The past 10 years show a massive disparity in the number of Championship games played by each county.

This graphic shows the number of games various teams had over the last 10 years.
https://twitter.com/BMacAnalyst/status/1450805538472828937/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/BMacAnalyst/status/1450805538472828937/photo/1)

15/32 teams have played >50% less games than the Top teams; Mayo & Dublin.

From the graphic we could argue 3 tiers have existed since 2011:
1. Mayo-Kildare
2. Monaghan-Longford
3. Down-London

Proposal B with a league based championship could help fix the imbalances in games played.

This graphic shows a forecast of championship games each county could play in the next 10 years based on current standings.

https://twitter.com/BMacAnalyst/status/1450805542818025478/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/BMacAnalyst/status/1450805542818025478/photo/1)

Note: Not a statistical tested model.

The difference in number games played between the Top team (Kerry) and Bottom team (Cork) is approx* 21%.

https://twitter.com/BMacAnalyst/status/1450805549122076680?s=20 (https://twitter.com/BMacAnalyst/status/1450805549122076680?s=20)

It was 69% from 2011-2022.

The worst effected team; Cork could still play 10 more Championship games by 2031 than in the past 10 years.

The current middle tier group: Arm, Mon, Kil, Cork, Gal, Ros, Clare, Meath will be greatest impacted.

However they could play approx* 35-50% more championship games than the past 10 years.

Tailteann Cup could allow the lower ranked teams to play approx 50-75% more championship games than the previous 10 years.

The Top teams could play approx 30% more games.

Based on this there was 1,242 games of senior intercounty played in the last decade and there would 2,708 played under Option B over the next decade.

That's an extra 1,466 games in a decade or 146 games each year.

This is absolutely massive - especially in terms of boosting the number of games for the weaker counties.

Multiple managers have spoken about the lack of games being a massive impediment in terms of developing players.

The number of extra games each county would have in 10 years under this scenario.

London          66
Waterford      60
Carlow           59
Limerick        57
Wexford        57
Wicklow         57
Antrim          56
Louth           56
Sligo            55
Westmeath        55
Fermanagh        53
Leitirm              53
Derry              52
Down               52
Offaly             51
Tipperay           51
Clare                   49
Longford           47
Armagh          43
Kerry         43
Cavan         41
Galway        41
Meath         40
Roscommon      38
Monaghan      35
Cork               34
Laois               34
Donegal      28
Kildare      28
Dublin      25
Mayo              25
Tyrone      25
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Blowitupref on October 21, 2021, 06:05:22 PM
We keep hearing that the Provincial Championships will die if they're not linked as Qualifiers to the AI series .
Doesn't say much for them if they can't stand on their own 2 feet!
The National League had stood on its own feet for over 90 years and indeed in recent years has become the best competition with more relevance to most Counties than Provincials or the AI.


To quote Kevin Mcstay the springtime provincial championships they're not championships so let's stop calling them that. They're the FBD league or Byrne Cup dressed up and that's why they will struggle to stand on their own two feet.

The NFL was seen as our long standing secondary competition the latter stages especially round 7 provided a big interest. It was the main competition that allowed teams to improve and develop, Monaghan would be a prime example from a Div 3 team in 2013 they became established Div 1 team but such improvements are becoming rare now and hence a change of that league format is needed also.

That league format will be retained under proposal B while merging into the championship as it will provide 10 teams in the All Ireland series but it won't be the best 10. A strong argument made that we should revert back to Div 1A 1B,2A 2B groups.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: APM on October 21, 2021, 06:08:29 PM

Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10.  #GAA

He's going in the right direction, but...

The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2.  But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out.  Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth.  Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation.  In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points.  The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points. 

My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2.

You're right, but I'll argue the toss anyway

Relegation = demotion to Grade 2

The only departure I would like is that Provincial winners should be in the race for Sam, so if you win the Province and finish bottom of D1 then you're relegated to D2 for the following year but in the Sam

If you win the Sam, you're still in D2

Could the imbalance between having 3 or 4 home games be sorted by having a Divisional weekend in Croke

3 home, 3 away, 1 in Croke

4 Div 4 games in Croke one Saturday
4 Div 3 games in Croke the next
4 Div 2 the next
4 Div 1 the next

or something like that, thinking from a marketing and player experience point of view it could work quite well

What kind of numbers would a quadruple header Super Saturday draw per division do you reckon?

Of course it could be split across 2 days, say the Fri/Sat, but feck that, any opportunity to get close to a full house should be explored

Instead of Super 8 your Super Saturday is then getting to a place where players are being treated with a lot more parity of esteem and respect for their efforts

While everyone is putting forward theories none of them are up for review in congress. It's either option A,B or stick with what we have. People may not like option b, but it's an improvement on the current system. I can't see why anyone (other than provincial councils) would want to keep the current system as that's what will happen at the weekend if options and b don't get 60% support.

No one is claiming option b is perfect but for those who don't think it should be passed this weekend might suggest why we should keep things as they are. It'll be at least two years of the current broken system if the current proposals aren't passed.

You are saying let's not make perfect the enemy of good.  It's not as if Option B is good.   
No point going from one broken system to a worse system on the basis that change is necessary, anything is better than what we have.  I do not know how on earth these proposals were arrived at, but it will not fix the problems we have and to put this scutter to congress only wastes an opportunity.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: twohands!!! on October 21, 2021, 06:11:00 PM
A stat I saw elsewhere on the recent competiveness of the Uster Championship.

In the last 5 years there has been 41 Ulster Championship games - 9 of them have had double-digit winning margins (22%)

These weren't all first round mismatches - 1 of the double-digit winning margins was in a final and another was in a semi-final.

The average winning margin was 6 points and the mean was the same.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 21, 2021, 06:23:49 PM

Niall McCoy
@McCoyNiall
·
3h
One amendment I'd like for Proposal B. Top 6 in D1 remain involved rather than 5. If you avoid traditional relegation spots in top tier your season should continue. Add in fourth in D2 and have four preliminary qfs. Basically 12 teams advance to knockouts rather than 10.  #GAA

He's going in the right direction, but...

The top four teams in Division 2 means 2 teams progressing that weren't even able to get out of Division 2.  But, the two teams that were relegated from Division 1, who have played against top class opposition all year, are ruled out.  Usually one team in Division 1 is hopeless, but another might get relegated by the skin of their teeth.  Fourth place in Division 2 is just 2 places off relegation.  In 2016 Fermanagh were 4th in Division 2 on 6 points.  The same year Armagh were relegated on 6 points. 

My point is that finishing 7th in Division 1 may (not always) be a much better performance than finishing 3rd or 4th against weaker opposition in Division 2.

You're right, but I'll argue the toss anyway

Relegation = demotion to Grade 2

The only departure I would like is that Provincial winners should be in the race for Sam, so if you win the Province and finish bottom of D1 then you're relegated to D2 for the following year but in the Sam

If you win the Sam, you're still in D2

Could the imbalance between having 3 or 4 home games be sorted by having a Divisional weekend in Croke

3 home, 3 away, 1 in Croke

4 Div 4 games in Croke one Saturday
4 Div 3 games in Croke the next
4 Div 2 the next
4 Div 1 the next

or something like that, thinking from a marketing and player experience point of view it could work quite well

What kind of numbers would a quadruple header Super Saturday draw per division do you reckon?

Of course it could be split across 2 days, say the Fri/Sat, but feck that, any opportunity to get close to a full house should be explored

Instead of Super 8 your Super Saturday is then getting to a place where players are being treated with a lot more parity of esteem and respect for their efforts

While everyone is putting forward theories none of them are up for review in congress. It's either option A,B or stick with what we have. People may not like option b, but it's an improvement on the current system. I can't see why anyone (other than provincial councils) would want to keep the current system as that's what will happen at the weekend if options and b don't get 60% support.

No one is claiming option b is perfect but for those who don't think it should be passed this weekend might suggest why we should keep things as they are. It'll be at least two years of the current broken system if the current proposals aren't passed.

You are saying let's not make perfect the enemy of good.  It's not as if Option B is good.   
No point going from one broken system to a worse system on the basis that change is necessary, anything is better than what we have.  I do not know how on earth these proposals were arrived at, but it will not fix the problems we have and to put this scutter to congress only wastes an opportunity.

I think option B while not perfect is a good idea. I also think it's far better than the current system. No one has said the rules can't be amended after this in future to further improve them and no one could become up with a system that would please everyone.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: APM on October 21, 2021, 07:01:08 PM
Percentage of USFC Games with a winning margin of 10pts or more from 1975 to 2000 was roughly 17%. From 1975 to 1979 the figure was 25%.  Lots of 8 and 9 points beatings on top of that also.  Doesn't mean much. 


Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 21, 2021, 07:20:36 PM
Mayo not supporting proposal B.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: APM on October 21, 2021, 07:39:36 PM
Don't blame them. The most consistent team outside of Dublin in the championship in the last 5-10 years is liable to be excluded from the opportunity to progress to the AIQF because they don't finish in the top 5 of the league. People can dress it up any way they like, but that is the reality. 

Outside of Dublin, Kerry and potentially Tyrone, I don't know why any division 1 team would support it.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 21, 2021, 07:46:05 PM
Mayo not supporting proposal B.
And Derry also. Derry chairman Stephen Barker who was on the fixture task force that put these proposals together said while he's not opposed to change there is too big of decision to make over soundbites and Derry won't be voting in favour of flawed B proposal.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: From the Bunker on October 21, 2021, 11:26:25 PM
Mayo not supporting proposal B.

Although Mayo had years and years of consecutive seasons in Division One, they were the escape artists year on year! Just doing it a Plethora of times. Also Mayo have a terrible record in the League at home.

That said this would not be the league as we knew it!
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: burdizzo on October 21, 2021, 11:30:54 PM
Galway, no?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Cunny Funt on October 22, 2021, 12:44:50 AM
Galway, no?
Voting for neither proposal in its current state. If the vote is pushed back to the February Congress and flaws ironed out they'll vote for proposal B

https://galwaybayfm.ie/sports/galway-looking-for-amendments-to-football-proposal-b-before-congress/?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 22, 2021, 07:16:51 AM
What is the breakdown of votes per county/provincial councils?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 22, 2021, 09:18:01 AM
The wise old elders decision makers

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40725921.html
Read my posts Farr
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Armagh18 on October 22, 2021, 09:31:45 AM
Mayo not supporting proposal B.

Although Mayo had years and years of consecutive seasons in Division One, they were the escape artists year on year! Just doing it a Plethora of times. Also Mayo have a terrible record in the League at home.

That said this would not be the league as we knew it!
Mayo rightly don’t give a shite about the league, just doing enough with the aim of peaking for championship. As it should be.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 22, 2021, 10:17:26 AM
There's a bizarre search for novelty in GAA formats. Every new format change is painted as something shiny and exciting that the public will go mad for.

Has that ever actually been true?

Novelty tends to wear off very quickly.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Keyser soze on October 22, 2021, 10:39:11 AM
There's a bizarre search for novelty in GAA formats. Every new format change is painted as something shiny and exciting that the public will go mad for.

Has that ever actually been true?

Novelty tends to wear off very quickly.

This is exactly the problem with the GAA as exemplified by a good number of posters on here. Will support any change no matter how batshit crazy it is just to be seen as progressive.

The biggest disease in Gaelic football is the constant change and clamour for more change, never a single consideration that there might possibly be a downside to the new rules.

No other sport indulges in such self flagellation.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 22, 2021, 10:54:22 AM
It all started with getting rid of the 21 aside.
The Ultaigh have never recovered from the shock ::)
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: lenny on October 22, 2021, 11:16:42 AM
There's a bizarre search for novelty in GAA formats. Every new format change is painted as something shiny and exciting that the public will go mad for.

Has that ever actually been true?

Novelty tends to wear off very quickly.

This is exactly the problem with the GAA as exemplified by a good number of posters on here. Will support any change no matter how batshit crazy it is just to be seen as progressive.

The biggest disease in Gaelic football is the constant change and clamour for more change, never a single consideration that there might possibly be a downside to the new rules.

No other sport indulges in such self flagellation.

Most sports like Aussie rules, soccer and rugby have way more self evaluation and rule changes than Gaelic football. Change and evolution can be good if managed well. The county game hasn’t worked well for many counties over the last 20 or 30 years if ever. Many players from those counties have no prospect of success or even challenging. The measures proposed give them some hope of development and the prospect of getting success.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Keyser soze on October 22, 2021, 11:31:24 AM
There's a bizarre search for novelty in GAA formats. Every new format change is painted as something shiny and exciting that the public will go mad for.

Has that ever actually been true?

Novelty tends to wear off very quickly.

This is exactly the problem with the GAA as exemplified by a good number of posters on here. Will support any change no matter how batshit crazy it is just to be seen as progressive.

The biggest disease in Gaelic football is the constant change and clamour for more change, never a single consideration that there might possibly be a downside to the new rules.

No other sport indulges in such self flagellation.

Most sports like Aussie rules, soccer and rugby have way more self evaluation and rule changes than Gaelic football. Change and evolution can be good if managed well. The county game hasn’t worked well for many counties over the last 20 or 30 years if ever. Many players from those counties have no prospect of success or even challenging. The measures proposed give them some hope of development and the prospect of getting success.

Do you seriously think these proposals are designed to help weaker counties develop, because if you do I can only feel sorry for your state of delusion.

The last 20 years have not worked for many counties as there has been a clear direction of travel towards rewarding the elite counties at the expense of the weak. These proposals are another step on that road IMO.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: lenny on October 22, 2021, 11:52:21 AM
There's a bizarre search for novelty in GAA formats. Every new format change is painted as something shiny and exciting that the public will go mad for.

Has that ever actually been true?

Novelty tends to wear off very quickly.

This is exactly the problem with the GAA as exemplified by a good number of posters on here. Will support any change no matter how batshit crazy it is just to be seen as progressive.

The biggest disease in Gaelic football is the constant change and clamour for more change, never a single consideration that there might possibly be a downside to the new rules.

No other sport indulges in such self flagellation.

Most sports like Aussie rules, soccer and rugby have way more self evaluation and rule changes than Gaelic football. Change and evolution can be good if managed well. The county game hasn’t worked well for many counties over the last 20 or 30 years if ever. Many players from those counties have no prospect of success or even challenging. The measures proposed give them some hope of development and the prospect of getting success.

Do you seriously think these proposals are designed to help weaker counties develop, because if you do I can only feel sorry for your state of delusion.

The last 20 years have not worked for many counties as there has been a clear direction of travel towards rewarding the elite counties at the expense of the weak. These proposals are another step on that road IMO.

So you think it’s better that weak counties continue to get 2 games every summer? How does that help them develop? Usually against teams that are on a completely different level. That’s just a waste of time. Change will happen, it’s just a case of when. More and more players from weaker counties are opting out and saying what’s the point.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 22, 2021, 11:57:58 AM
The days of counties like Leitrim, Limerick and Louth competing with the likes of Mayo, Dublin and Kerry are gone. The top counties are investing so much in training, weight programs etc that they have pulled away and it's one of the main reasons we see so many hammerings in each province come the championship.

I don't think anyone is stupid enough to believe a county like Carlow could win Sam under the new proposal, but what they do have is a legitimate opportunity to compete for a trophy and are guaranteed 7 games a season rather than a hammering in the provincial championship followed by another hammering in the qualifiers.

The same principal could be applied to all the other div 3 & 4 teams as it gives them a chance to compete for silverware each season and play far more games.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Keyser soze on October 22, 2021, 12:36:56 PM
The days of counties like Leitrim, Limerick and Louth competing with the likes of Mayo, Dublin and Kerry are gone. The top counties are investing so much in training, weight programs etc that they have pulled away and it's one of the main reasons we see so many hammerings in each province come the championship.

I don't think anyone is stupid enough to believe a county like Carlow could win Sam under the new proposal, but what they do have is a legitimate opportunity to compete for a trophy and are guaranteed 7 games a season rather than a hammering in the provincial championship followed by another hammering in the qualifiers.

The same principal could be applied to all the other div 3 & 4 teams as it gives them a chance to compete for silverware each season and play far more games.

Paragraph 1 succinctly summarises the rationale for change.

However rather than address the problem, i.e. how can we make these counties more competitive, the proposed solution is to sideline them into a mickey mouse competition and give them a series of meaningless games to win a meaningless competition.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: rodney trotter on October 22, 2021, 12:37:25 PM
They were discussing the pros and cons of Proposal B on the Rte Gaa pod https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q44mtN14lqc&t=176s
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 22, 2021, 12:44:35 PM
The days of counties like Leitrim, Limerick and Louth competing with the likes of Mayo, Dublin and Kerry are gone. The top counties are investing so much in training, weight programs etc that they have pulled away and it's one of the main reasons we see so many hammerings in each province come the championship.

I don't think anyone is stupid enough to believe a county like Carlow could win Sam under the new proposal, but what they do have is a legitimate opportunity to compete for a trophy and are guaranteed 7 games a season rather than a hammering in the provincial championship followed by another hammering in the qualifiers.

The same principal could be applied to all the other div 3 & 4 teams as it gives them a chance to compete for silverware each season and play far more games.

Paragraph 1 succinctly summarises the rationale for change.

However rather than address the problem, i.e. how can we make these counties more competitive, the proposed solution is to sideline them into a mickey mouse competition and give them a series of meaningless games to win a meaningless competition.

How exactly do can you get Leitrm/Carlow to compete with Dublin and Mayo on a regular basis? You can throw all the funding/coaching in the world at both counties but with their size and playing numbers neither county will ever win Sam.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: yellowcard on October 22, 2021, 01:13:01 PM
So it looks like just Ulster (and a few others) says no! Except for Down who say yes. But they also voted for the abolition of Rule 21 so they have a history of doing things differently in Down and if reports are correct they were given the mandates from the clubs, which is the correct way of doing things. Fair and democratic and not a few administrators at the top making their own decision as some counties have shamefully left the decision in the hands of their delegates on the day.

The reality is that most casual GAA fans are not fully aware of what these changes entail and are not overly bothered and this is also because there is a slight disconnect with the county game among a lot of club members. They will only think about it again when the championship actually starts. It's easy to slate people for going against change but it has to be the right sort of change and if there is scope for some alterations in February then I think this will be enough to sway the undecideds on the day. It does still look like it could go either way at the minute though.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Derry Optimist on October 22, 2021, 01:21:28 PM
Despite the fact that three of the four 
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 22, 2021, 01:31:31 PM
The days of counties like Leitrim, Limerick and Louth competing with the likes of Mayo, Dublin and Kerry are gone. The top counties are investing so much in training, weight programs etc that they have pulled away and it's one of the main reasons we see so many hammerings in each province come the championship.

I don't think anyone is stupid enough to believe a county like Carlow could win Sam under the new proposal, but what they do have is a legitimate opportunity to compete for a trophy and are guaranteed 7 games a season rather than a hammering in the provincial championship followed by another hammering in the qualifiers.

The same principal could be applied to all the other div 3 & 4 teams as it gives them a chance to compete for silverware each season and play far more games.

Paragraph 1 succinctly summarises the rationale for change.

However rather than address the problem, i.e. how can we make these counties more competitive, the proposed solution is to sideline them into a mickey mouse competition and give them a series of meaningless games to win a meaningless competition.
This is exactly the problem with the thinking of the GAA and GAA media.

Making counties which are weak now competitive again is difficult. It takes time, money and effort.

So in true Homer Simpson fashion, the GAA and GAA media tell us "if something is difficult, it's not worth even attempting".

The GAA is telling us that the strong will be strong forever and the weak will remain weak forever. Ultra-elitism.

How long before a yawning chasm of standards emerges within Division 1 itself, where the weakest two or three counties in it cannot compete with the strongest two or three, and we get constant yo-yoing?

And where do we go from there?

The GAA cannot sustain a Premier League format.

And people need to look at the problems with the Premier League, and with other European Leagues.

There's a serious possibility that the Gaelic football championship becomes a La Liga type duopoly, Dublin as Real Madrid, Kerry as Barcelona.

Tyrone and Mayo might be the Atletico Madrids and Valencias.

Down and Derry will probably become Eibar and Rayo Vallecano.


Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Derry Optimist on October 22, 2021, 01:33:02 PM
Despite the fact that three of the four Provincial Councils "DIPLOMATICALLY ADVISED"each county within their jurisdiction to vote against all motions, many counties have mandated their delegates to vote for Proposal B.

 This type of intense Provincial Council  lobbying cannot  be healthy for any democratic organisation.In the circumstances how can it be proven that delegates will vote in the manner that they were advised to? Should the voting system not be transparent to  everyone so that  proper democracy to be applied!?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 22, 2021, 01:38:58 PM
It does still look like it could go either way at the minute though.
At this stage I'd be very surprised if it isn't passed comfortably. I don't see where the votes against are coming from.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 22, 2021, 01:44:34 PM
It does still look like it could go either way at the minute though.
At this stage I'd be very surprised if it isn't passed comfortably. I don't see where the votes against are coming from.

Central Council have a helluva lot of votes however. I suppose a lot will be riding on how they all go.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 22, 2021, 02:10:10 PM
Despite the fact that three of the four Provincial Councils "DIPLOMATICALLY ADVISED"each county within their jurisdiction to vote against all motions, many counties have mandated their delegates to vote for Proposal B.

 This type of intense Provincial Council  lobbying cannot  be healthy for any democratic organisation.In the circumstances how can it be proven that delegates will vote in the manner that they were advised to? Should the voting system not be transparent to  everyone so that  proper democracy to be applied!?

Exactly.

I remember when they passed the black card. There was a load of impassioned speakers before the vote and how we need to clean up the game etc. But why do that if delegates already know how they’re voting? Why try to sway them at the last minute, if their minds are already made up?

Transparency is definitely needed at congress.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: screenexile on October 22, 2021, 02:24:11 PM
Despite the fact that three of the four Provincial Councils "DIPLOMATICALLY ADVISED"each county within their jurisdiction to vote against all motions, many counties have mandated their delegates to vote for Proposal B.

 This type of intense Provincial Council  lobbying cannot  be healthy for any democratic organisation.In the circumstances how can it be proven that delegates will vote in the manner that they were advised to? Should the voting system not be transparent to  everyone so that  proper democracy to be applied!?

Exactly.

I remember when they passed the black card. There was a load of impassioned speakers before the vote and how we need to clean up the game etc. But why do that if delegates already know how they’re voting? Why try to sway them at the last minute, if their minds are already made up?

Transparency is definitely needed at congress.

Absolutely but delegates voted against transparency last time around!
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: lenny on October 22, 2021, 02:26:05 PM
The days of counties like Leitrim, Limerick and Louth competing with the likes of Mayo, Dublin and Kerry are gone. The top counties are investing so much in training, weight programs etc that they have pulled away and it's one of the main reasons we see so many hammerings in each province come the championship.

I don't think anyone is stupid enough to believe a county like Carlow could win Sam under the new proposal, but what they do have is a legitimate opportunity to compete for a trophy and are guaranteed 7 games a season rather than a hammering in the provincial championship followed by another hammering in the qualifiers.

The same principal could be applied to all the other div 3 & 4 teams as it gives them a chance to compete for silverware each season and play far more games.

Paragraph 1 succinctly summarises the rationale for change.

However rather than address the problem, i.e. how can we make these counties more competitive, the proposed solution is to sideline them into a mickey mouse competition and give them a series of meaningless games to win a meaningless competition.

How exactly do can you get Leitrm/Carlow to compete with Dublin and Mayo on a regular basis? You can throw all the funding/coaching in the world at both counties but with their size and playing numbers neither county will ever win Sam.

Totally agree with this. Teams can only develop with regular games against teams at their own level. If they’re good enough they move up to the next level to test themselves there. It’s the model which works at club level all over the country and works well. Club players are all generally playing competitive games where they can compete. In Derry we’ve seen Coleraine come all the way from junior football to winning 2 senior titles in the last 15 years. Other clubs yo-yo up and down with sporadic successes at junior or intermediate. The model is there, it works well, club players all over the country are content with it and it here is no reason it wouldn’t work at county.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Hound on October 22, 2021, 02:30:48 PM
60% is a high bar. I can see it falling somewhere around 45-55%.

If it did get through I'd be very confident the new provincial championship dates would do much better than the negative press it's getting. Okay, Munster and Leinster will still be Munster and Leinster, but there's absolutely no reason the big games in Connacht and Ulster won't have the same attendance and atmosphere they have in the summer.

Roscommon fans go mental when they win a Connacht U20 in the winter, so I think it's a bit silly to suggest they wouldn't have huge celebrations for winning a senior Connacht title in the Spring. It's not like beating Mayo in a senior final in the normal system knocks Mayo out of the All Ireland anyway, so the fact that Mayo would still be favourites to finish higher than the Rossies in the league/championship format is no reason not to celebrate provincial success as they normally would. 

The worry I'd have for the new system is dead rubbers in the lower divisions.

The comment of the Galway county board saying they'd like to see teams 6, 7 and 8 in D1 in the knockout stages really worried me. That would make an absolute nonsense of it and make all 7 games in D1 pre-championship challenge games.

With the All Ireland, only 1 team wins and all rest exit at different times. So to me I see not a thing wrong with a heap of teams exiting after their 7 games. The will have had their chance (games 6 and 7 in particular will have a knockout feel), but they will have failed, and they can try again next year. Certainly better than all the teams who exit at the first or second round of the qualifiers, many only having had 2 or 3 games.

Allowing the best of the worst teams parachute into the knockout stages is annoying some people, but the weaker counties seem unanimous in their view that this is what they want- play games against their own level, and let the best of them then have a shot at the bigger teams.
 
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 22, 2021, 02:50:41 PM
We never won a Winter u20.
But we did win a Summer one in McHale Park this year ;D
Looks like the vote on B will be a close call.
Fair play to those Boards who consulted Clubs and players and gave mandated their delegates to vote accordingly (mainly FOR).
No marks to those who are taking the "Yerra" option of decide on the day.
Question for the Galway lads... did tere Board go down the consultation route or has Chair/Executive decided on their own bat?
Heard the Chair on local radio who kept repeating if there are amendments we'd vote for it but no mention of what sort of amendments they wanted.
He sounded like a chap who was winging it. Wonder was he "diplomatically advised"?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Louther on October 22, 2021, 03:17:03 PM
Some of the narrative round this vote has been depressing. And can sum up what the issues across the GAA are. At the top level - county board, provincial, central council - we have lots of people who see committees and meetings as been at the core of the GAA and tradition been the bedrock.

Fail to see what’s going round them and how a few big days in Croke Park, more games and increased pricing has masked the strength of the GAA in recent years. The product itself matters little to a lot of people until the big day out when there will be competition.

We have one person who came up with the options talking them down and saying they need amendments. Amateur hour.

Took a progressive county board like Offaly who said they’d support to get the ball rolling. Offaly aren’t a county feeling sorry for themselves and looking others to do it for them. They going out and been active and slowly get rewards. The provincial councils see a challenge coming and dismiss it and everything that comes with it. Rather than seeing opportunities and progressive thinking they run and hide.

They talk about traditional games. It wasn’t until recently that they actually started club competitions across all grades. Senior club provincial games aren’t about 130 years either. Wasn’t until the 70s they started. Intermediate and Junior grades started much later and all these competitions came about because progressive clubs seen these games as opportunities and held good watch tournaments and then later the invitation tournaments for intermediate and junior clubs. Such was their success wasn’t long until they became officially under the banner of the provincial councils.

Self preservation is all they see. Leinster county boards have proved this time and time again once Dublins money dangled in front of them.

All the talk now seems to be about keeping more teams in the knock out stages. Why? If you don’t qualify you don’t qualify. Not as if Div 3 or 4 teams are going to take up half a dozen places. They get an outside chance.

I just don’t know if any ambition exists. Roll it out and make it all work. We can amend when it’s running after a number of years but the Intercounty championship game of 2019 is dead.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Cunny Funt on October 22, 2021, 03:32:47 PM
60% is a high bar. I can see it falling somewhere around 45-55%.

If it did get through I'd be very confident the new provincial championship dates would do much better than the negative press it's getting. Okay, Munster and Leinster will still be Munster and Leinster, but there's absolutely no reason the big games in Connacht and Ulster won't have the same attendance and atmosphere they have in the summer.

Roscommon fans go mental when they win a Connacht U20 in the winter, so I think it's a bit silly to suggest they wouldn't have huge celebrations for winning a senior Connacht title in the Spring. It's not like beating Mayo in a senior final in the normal system knocks Mayo out of the All Ireland anyway, so the fact that Mayo would still be favourites to finish higher than the Rossies in the league/championship format is no reason not to celebrate provincial success as they normally would. 

The worry I'd have for the new system is dead rubbers in the lower divisions.

The comment of the Galway county board saying they'd like to see teams 6, 7 and 8 in D1 in the knockout stages really worried me. That would make an absolute nonsense of it and make all 7 games in D1 pre-championship challenge games.

With the All Ireland, only 1 team wins and all rest exit at different times. So to me I see not a thing wrong with a heap of teams exiting after their 7 games. The will have had their chance (games 6 and 7 in particular will have a knockout feel), but they will have failed, and they can try again next year. Certainly better than all the teams who exit at the first or second round of the qualifiers, many only having had 2 or 3 games.

Allowing the best of the worst teams parachute into the knockout stages is annoying some people, but the weaker counties seem unanimous in their view that this is what they want- play games against their own level, and let the best of them then have a shot at the bigger teams.

More the press calling it like it is than negative press. It's not a Provincial championships anymore under proposal B, that competition so close to the start of the league/championship managements will have no choice but use the finals as warm ups before the more important fixtures Some can dress it up but it's a pre season competition played in the spring time and that won't have close to crowds that attends summer provincial championship games.

Galway are taking the right stance IMO,  do the required adjustments to proposal B and it would likely sail through at the February Congress instead of changing after 2,3 into this new format.

The league system under proposal B will be used to find 10 teams to play in the knock out AI series (they'll solve a lot of issues by making it a higher number than 10) championship knock out football is the ultimate test for any team. Div 3,4 teams will get that with Tailteann Cup (will want to be improvement on the Tommy Murphy Cup) while 3 in Div 1 and 5 Div 2 will finish their season without a knock out championship match under proposal B.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 22, 2021, 06:15:13 PM
The days of counties like Leitrim, Limerick and Louth competing with the likes of Mayo, Dublin and Kerry are gone. The top counties are investing so much in training, weight programs etc that they have pulled away and it's one of the main reasons we see so many hammerings in each province come the championship.

I don't think anyone is stupid enough to believe a county like Carlow could win Sam under the new proposal, but what they do have is a legitimate opportunity to compete for a trophy and are guaranteed 7 games a season rather than a hammering in the provincial championship followed by another hammering in the qualifiers.

The same principal could be applied to all the other div 3 & 4 teams as it gives them a chance to compete for silverware each season and play far more games.

Paragraph 1 succinctly summarises the rationale for change.

However rather than address the problem, i.e. how can we make these counties more competitive, the proposed solution is to sideline them into a mickey mouse competition and give them a series of meaningless games to win a meaningless competition.
This is exactly the problem with the thinking of the GAA and GAA media.

Making counties which are weak now competitive again is difficult. It takes time, money and effort.

So in true Homer Simpson fashion, the GAA and GAA media tell us "if something is difficult, it's not worth even attempting".

The GAA is telling us that the strong will be strong forever and the weak will remain weak forever. Ultra-elitism.

How long before a yawning chasm of standards emerges within Division 1 itself, where the weakest two or three counties in it cannot compete with the strongest two or three, and we get constant yo-yoing?

And where do we go from there?

The GAA cannot sustain a Premier League format.

And people need to look at the problems with the Premier League, and with other European Leagues.

There's a serious possibility that the Gaelic football championship becomes a La Liga type duopoly, Dublin as Real Madrid, Kerry as Barcelona.

Tyrone and Mayo might be the Atletico Madrids and Valencias.

Down and Derry will probably become Eibar and Rayo Vallecano.

Premier League format?

What do you mean?

25% of all competitors in D1 would get relegated each year. 37.5% of them wouldn’t make the knockout stages.

The cushions aren’t there. They have to treat the league part of the championship with full focus and intensity, or it will hurt like hell.

——

If you mean that the gap will widen because in each season the D1 counties gets a series of 7 more difficult games than those below, well you should probably start by accepting that this has been the case for a lifetime.

But the counties in the lower leagues continue to respond to the leagues, each and every year. While a large proportion of them do little more than fulfil a fixture or two in the current championship format.

If you see the league as a problem in the GaA, you aren’t watching.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Derry Optimist on October 22, 2021, 09:33:04 PM
Such is the  proficiency and  efficiency of the Provincial GAA Councils in canvassing in  all media outlets  as well as using  old fashioned dictatorial methods it has to be seen and heard  to be believed.

The three greatest political parties in the history of getting their own way by intensive canvassing  in this country,have been the DUP, Sinn Fein  and formerly, in the real old times, Fianna Fail. From what I am hearing  the GAA conservative wing are putting  them all in the halfpenny place!!

That is all very fine IF  ALL DELEGATES obey the rules of their own mandates. Therefore there should be, even at this very late stage, some reliable mechanism used to ensure that this happens.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: lenny on October 22, 2021, 11:14:48 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40727532.html


Great article here which gives a player’s point of view along with an administrators. Both have really thought about and raise some very interesting points. It’s really a complex issue and the impact on club football would be huge. On balance I’d be sympathetic to Mickey Quinn.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 23, 2021, 02:35:43 AM
Some of the narrative round this vote has been depressing. And can sum up what the issues across the GAA are. At the top level - county board, provincial, central council - we have lots of people who see committees and meetings as been at the core of the GAA and tradition been the bedrock.

Fail to see what’s going round them and how a few big days in Croke Park, more games and increased pricing has masked the strength of the GAA in recent years. The product itself matters little to a lot of people until the big day out when there will be competition.

We have one person who came up with the options talking them down and saying they need amendments. Amateur hour.

Took a progressive county board like Offaly who said they’d support to get the ball rolling. Offaly aren’t a county feeling sorry for themselves and looking others to do it for them. They going out and been active and slowly get rewards. The provincial councils see a challenge coming and dismiss it and everything that comes with it. Rather than seeing opportunities and progressive thinking they run and hide.

They talk about traditional games. It wasn’t until recently that they actually started club competitions across all grades. Senior club provincial games aren’t about 130 years either. Wasn’t until the 70s they started. Intermediate and Junior grades started much later and all these competitions came about because progressive clubs seen these games as opportunities and held good watch tournaments and then later the invitation tournaments for intermediate and junior clubs. Such was their success wasn’t long until they became officially under the banner of the provincial councils.

Self preservation is all they see. Leinster county boards have proved this time and time again once Dublins money dangled in front of them.

All the talk now seems to be about keeping more teams in the knock out stages. Why? If you don’t qualify you don’t qualify. Not as if Div 3 or 4 teams are going to take up half a dozen places. They get an outside chance.

I just don’t know if any ambition exists. Roll it out and make it all work. We can amend when it’s running after a number of years but the Intercounty championship game of 2019 is dead.
That's a great post. Even on this thread you've got posters criticising plan B because 1 team in division one might be inconvienced. Forget the fact the new plan will benefit many counties, 1  county could potentially lose out so that means vote no.

The ironic thing is the same people will be moaning over counties like Dublin strolling through the provincial championship as it is and claiming they've an unfair advantage
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Kickham csc on October 23, 2021, 04:23:46 AM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40727532.html


Great article here which gives a player’s point of view along with an administrators. Both have really thought about and raise some very interesting points. It’s really a complex issue and the impact on club football would be huge. On balance I’d be sympathetic to Mickey Quinn.

I am sympathetic to Mickey Quinn, but the two paragraphs that stand out for me are from Baker
1 - "In Ulster, we had the Dr McKenna Cup, with at least three matches there, sometimes more. You had seven National League matches and then you had at least two championship matches.

You don’t have any more games in this system. You possibly have a round robin Ulster Championship which is three matches along with your seven league matches. Some will not have a knockout game. So there aren’t any more matches.

2 "We have had 137 years of the provincial championships which we are saying is broken. So why are we changing that with another flawed system?"

Baker lists a number of serious challenges, these really do need to be thought out and war gamed to try and iron out the major flaws
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: lenny on October 23, 2021, 06:39:19 AM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40727532.html


Great article here which gives a player’s point of view along with an administrators. Both have really thought about and raise some very interesting points. It’s really a complex issue and the impact on club football would be huge. On balance I’d be sympathetic to Mickey Quinn.

I am sympathetic to Mickey Quinn, but the two paragraphs that stand out for me are from Baker
1 - "In Ulster, we had the Dr McKenna Cup, with at least three matches there, sometimes more. You had seven National League matches and then you had at least two championship matches.

You don’t have any more games in this system. You possibly have a round robin Ulster Championship which is three matches along with your seven league matches. Some will not have a knockout game. So there aren’t any more matches.

2 "We have had 137 years of the provincial championships which we are saying is broken. So why are we changing that with another flawed system?"

Baker lists a number of serious challenges, these really do need to be thought out and war gamed to try and iron out the major flaws

The big problem for me is the timing. I’d like the county games played in May/June. Finals in early July to allow the club season a good run. The split season has a lot of merit for everyone.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: DuffleKing on October 23, 2021, 09:18:38 AM

Never met the man but, not for the first time, Barker sounds like an idiot.

We can't play big county games in a window where might be playing pre season club games? And this from a man who served on the committee that brought these recommendations forward!

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: bannside on October 23, 2021, 09:37:10 AM
Pre season club games well down the agenda I'm afraid DK. No money in that for CLG! And to be fair, club teams don't need county players for pre season club matches. Throw open an opportunity to develop other squad members. You'll get your county men back when they are needed. Don't forget most clubs you will be playing will be out one or two players as well.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: DuffleKing on October 23, 2021, 09:40:59 AM

I think the main point on this one is that post the split season approach, this isn't even a discussion area.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 23, 2021, 10:26:48 AM

Never met the man but, not for the first time, Barker sounds like an idiot.

We can't play big county games in a window where might be playing pre season club games? And this from a man who served on the committee that brought these recommendations forward!
Here's something I drew up but it's rubbish so don't vote for it :o
Like the Galway Chair he sounds like a lad who'd been nobbled by a Provincial influencer.
The same point about 10 games in 13 weeks as well.
Neither of them must have heard about the split season.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Hound on October 23, 2021, 10:57:18 AM
A minor enough tweak to Proposal B would solve a lot of problems, it would mean;
- the top teams all get a go at proper knockout
- the weaker teams would still have the chance of making the AI  knockout stages
- there would be a clear advantage to being in D1 vs D2, D2vD3 and D3vD4
- the Tailtean Cup would have a reward

Instead of 6-3-1-1, change it to 4-2-1-1 that makes the “Playoff Round’
Held at a neutral venue with the winners progressing to the Quarter Finals with home advantage when they get there. Top team in D1 plays D4 winners, D1 second plays D3 winners so also an advantage to finishing as high as possible in D1 to reduce risk of dead rubbers.
Losers of Playoff Round go to Qualifier R2.

Teams 5-8 in D1 and teams 3-6 in D2 play in AI Qualifier R1. Seeded according to league placement but neutral venues. Winners go to Qualifier R2 , losers are finally out.

4 Losers from Playoff Round and 4 winners from Qualifier R1 play in Qualifier R2, with the winners progressing into quarter-final. Open draw but cannot have a repeat pairing from Playoff Round.

Bottom 2 in D1 relegated to D2 and replaced by top 2 in D2.
Bottom 2 in D2 provisional relegated (see next point) and don’t get to play in Sam Maguire.  But they do play Tailteann along with D3 and D4 teams.
Winner of D3 promoted to D2 for next season, along with winners of Talteann

My explanation has probably made it seem more convoluted than it is, but it’s quite similar to proposal B.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 12:03:18 PM
A minor enough tweak to Proposal B would solve a lot of problems, it would mean;
- the top teams all get a go at proper knockout
- the weaker teams would still have the chance of making the AI  knockout stages
- there would be a clear advantage to being in D1 vs D2, D2vD3 and D3vD4
- the Tailtean Cup would have a reward

Instead of 6-3-1-1, change it to 4-2-1-1 that makes the “Playoff Round’
Held at a neutral venue with the winners progressing to the Quarter Finals with home advantage when they get there. Top team in D1 plays D4 winners, D1 second plays D3 winners so also an advantage to finishing as high as possible in D1 to reduce risk of dead rubbers.
Losers of Playoff Round go to Qualifier R2.

Teams 5-8 in D1 and teams 3-6 in D2 play in AI Qualifier R1. Seeded according to league placement but neutral venues. Winners go to Qualifier R2 , losers are finally out.

4 Losers from Playoff Round and 4 winners from Qualifier R1 play in Qualifier R2, with the winners progressing into quarter-final. Open draw but cannot have a repeat pairing from Playoff Round.

Bottom 2 in D1 relegated to D2 and replaced by top 2 in D2.
Bottom 2 in D2 provisional relegated (see next point) and don’t get to play in Sam Maguire.  But they do play Tailteann along with D3 and D4 teams.
Winner of D3 promoted to D2 for next season, along with winners of Talteann

My explanation has probably made it seem more convoluted than it is, but it’s quite similar to proposal B.

That makes the league stage essentially pointless.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: StPatsAbu on October 23, 2021, 12:27:31 PM
What was so wrong with the normal back door that they had to change it? 
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Hound on October 23, 2021, 12:54:02 PM
A minor enough tweak to Proposal B would solve a lot of problems, it would mean;
- the top teams all get a go at proper knockout
- the weaker teams would still have the chance of making the AI  knockout stages
- there would be a clear advantage to being in D1 vs D2, D2vD3 and D3vD4
- the Tailtean Cup would have a reward

Instead of 6-3-1-1, change it to 4-2-1-1 that makes the “Playoff Round’
Held at a neutral venue with the winners progressing to the Quarter Finals with home advantage when they get there. Top team in D1 plays D4 winners, D1 second plays D3 winners so also an advantage to finishing as high as possible in D1 to reduce risk of dead rubbers.
Losers of Playoff Round go to Qualifier R2.

Teams 5-8 in D1 and teams 3-6 in D2 play in AI Qualifier R1. Seeded according to league placement but neutral venues. Winners go to Qualifier R2 , losers are finally out.

4 Losers from Playoff Round and 4 winners from Qualifier R1 play in Qualifier R2, with the winners progressing into quarter-final. Open draw but cannot have a repeat pairing from Playoff Round.

Bottom 2 in D1 relegated to D2 and replaced by top 2 in D2.
Bottom 2 in D2 provisional relegated (see next point) and don’t get to play in Sam Maguire.  But they do play Tailteann along with D3 and D4 teams.
Winner of D3 promoted to D2 for next season, along with winners of Talteann

My explanation has probably made it seem more convoluted than it is, but it’s quite similar to proposal B.

That makes the league stage essentially pointless.
You can’t read. Fair enough.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Hound on October 23, 2021, 12:54:27 PM
50.6% in favour of Proposal B.

Motion defeated. 

Only 10% in favour of Proposal A (as expected).
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Cunny Funt on October 23, 2021, 12:54:39 PM
50.6% in favour of Proposal B. The flaws has defeated it.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 23, 2021, 01:06:54 PM
The wise old elders have decided.
Sin é.
Or are we back to everyone proposing new systems for Congress 2022?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: An Watcher on October 23, 2021, 01:09:10 PM
16 votes short
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: yellowcard on October 23, 2021, 01:11:28 PM
The proposal gained a simple majority but not the 60% needed. Si it was some sort of moral victory that change is needed. Expect that it will come back again next year in a slightly modified format after another year of provincial turkey shoots. I wonder do they release the breakdown of the votes. I think players, coaches and GAA members deserve to know how their delegates used their vote.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Tubberman on October 23, 2021, 01:15:25 PM
The proposal gained a simple majority but not the 60% needed. Si it was some sort of moral victory that change is needed. Expect that it will come back again next year in a slightly modified format after another year of provincial turkey shoots. I wonder do they release the breakdown of the votes. I think players, coaches and GAA members deserve to know how their delegates used their vote.

Secret ballot I think
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: delgany on October 23, 2021, 01:30:26 PM
The proposal gained a simple majority but not the 60% needed. Si it was some sort of moral victory that change is needed. Expect that it will come back again next year in a slightly modified format after another year of provincial turkey shoots. I wonder do they release the breakdown of the votes. I think players, coaches and GAA members deserve to know how their delegates used their vote.

Secret ballot I think
8 ulster counties against , Down for the motion!
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Tubberman on October 23, 2021, 01:34:54 PM
The proposal gained a simple majority but not the 60% needed. Si it was some sort of moral victory that change is needed. Expect that it will come back again next year in a slightly modified format after another year of provincial turkey shoots. I wonder do they release the breakdown of the votes. I think players, coaches and GAA members deserve to know how their delegates used their vote.

Secret ballot I think
8 ulster counties against , Down for the motion!

Yes, but you don't know the delegates actually voted
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: bennydorano on October 23, 2021, 01:52:23 PM
Not overly sad, the dilution of the Ulster Championship would have been a tragedy imo, selfish in the overall big picture i know - but still.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 02:00:34 PM
A minor enough tweak to Proposal B would solve a lot of problems, it would mean;
- the top teams all get a go at proper knockout
- the weaker teams would still have the chance of making the AI  knockout stages
- there would be a clear advantage to being in D1 vs D2, D2vD3 and D3vD4
- the Tailtean Cup would have a reward

Instead of 6-3-1-1, change it to 4-2-1-1 that makes the “Playoff Round’
Held at a neutral venue with the winners progressing to the Quarter Finals with home advantage when they get there. Top team in D1 plays D4 winners, D1 second plays D3 winners so also an advantage to finishing as high as possible in D1 to reduce risk of dead rubbers.
Losers of Playoff Round go to Qualifier R2.

Teams 5-8 in D1 and teams 3-6 in D2 play in AI Qualifier R1. Seeded according to league placement but neutral venues. Winners go to Qualifier R2 , losers are finally out.

4 Losers from Playoff Round and 4 winners from Qualifier R1 play in Qualifier R2, with the winners progressing into quarter-final. Open draw but cannot have a repeat pairing from Playoff Round.

Bottom 2 in D1 relegated to D2 and replaced by top 2 in D2.
Bottom 2 in D2 provisional relegated (see next point) and don’t get to play in Sam Maguire.  But they do play Tailteann along with D3 and D4 teams.
Winner of D3 promoted to D2 for next season, along with winners of Talteann

My explanation has probably made it seem more convoluted than it is, but it’s quite similar to proposal B.

That makes the league stage essentially pointless.
You can’t read. Fair enough.
Very touchy, aren't you?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: laoislad on October 23, 2021, 02:03:17 PM
Damien Duff was right. Dinosaurs the lot of them.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.

Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: yellowcard on October 23, 2021, 02:14:22 PM
Not overly sad, the dilution of the Ulster Championship would have been a tragedy imo, selfish in the overall big picture i know - but still.

That's sort of how I feel but at the same time there are still huge issues remaining with the structure overall which aren't going to go away.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: didlyi on October 23, 2021, 02:14:45 PM
Sure whats new up North. When was the last time Donegal voted yes for anything?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 23, 2021, 02:29:57 PM
Sure whats new up North. When was the last time Donegal voted yes for anything?
For Dublin to not have two home games in the Super 8s? Now that proposal B is defeated any room on the split season calendar for the McKenna Cup next January?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 23, 2021, 02:31:01 PM
Damien Duff was right. Dinosaurs the lot of them.

You should be banned for mentioning that wee pricks name on a GAA thread.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Louther on October 23, 2021, 02:36:53 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.

Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.

What a take. Why don’t we get the Bishop back to throw in the ball too.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Solo_run on October 23, 2021, 03:21:46 PM
Excellent news. It was a shite idea.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 23, 2021, 04:01:45 PM
The proposal gained a simple majority but not the 60% needed. Si it was some sort of moral victory that change is needed. Expect that it will come back again next year in a slightly modified format after another year of provincial turkey shoots. I wonder do they release the breakdown of the votes. I think players, coaches and GAA members deserve to know how their delegates used their vote.

Secret ballot I think
8 ulster counties against , Down for the motion!

Yes, but you don't know the delegates actually voted

There was a motion a few years ago to identify who voted for/ against but it was roundly defeated.
So a delegate can vote against their mandate and no one will know.
I suppose we can now all get back to our favourite winter pastime of suggesting new AI systems and structures.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 23, 2021, 04:20:27 PM
so is next season a backdoor system for only division 1 and 2 will there not be time to change format is congress is in February so will there not be any changes now to 2023
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 23, 2021, 04:36:49 PM
if there so concerned about the dilluation of ulster champiosnhip then they should be talking about keeping the same system that was prior 2001 the question should be how many ulster titles would u swap for one all ireland  3 5 or 10
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 05:26:59 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.

Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.

What a take. Why don’t we get the Bishop back to throw in the ball too.
Or why don't we make the League more equitable in terms of format and redistribute funds to enable currently weaker counties to compete better, thus giving us a better League and a better Championship?

This is not some pipe dream, it's obvious stuff.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 23, 2021, 05:30:48 PM
In the current format, rank the provinces.

Ulster winners get to an AI semi final. The rest get to a QF.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Louther on October 23, 2021, 05:49:17 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.

Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.

What a take. Why don’t we get the Bishop back to throw in the ball too.
Or why don't we make the League more equitable in terms of format and redistribute funds to enable currently weaker counties to compete better, thus giving us a better League and a better Championship?

This is not some pipe dream, it's obvious stuff.

Sharing of funds is a pipe dream. A very bad one. It would take massive injections of cash, not just sharing what is there. If what Dublin, Mayo, Kerry etc are doing the right thing do we:

A: Fund every county in exact manner as this so that in 10/12 years we have developed all these players over time to be at same level. This will take huge injections of funds while the money from Inter county game will start dwindle. Or
B: Cut the money into these counties and redistribute it round to every other county in equal amounts for football and hurling. Waterford footballers and Kilkenny Hurlers to receive exact same funding.

Yeah. That’s happening.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 23, 2021, 06:48:53 PM
ulster is not as competitive as some people make it out to be either tyrone or donegal have been involved in every ulster final since 2009 and it bet a lot of those years where they were not playing each other in the final they played each other before it.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: seafoid on October 23, 2021, 07:21:41 PM
It's only the beginning
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 23, 2021, 07:42:10 PM
maybe people should boycott intercounty  untill they get their act together there is simple solutions but they will never do it because of greed isnt intercounty not suppose to be like the representative game anyway where you only play for them  few times a year and clubs was suppose to be the main focus but intercounty is where the money and casual fans are so it is that.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: lenny on October 23, 2021, 08:16:55 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.

Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.

What a take. Why don’t we get the Bishop back to throw in the ball too.
Or why don't we make the League more equitable in terms of format and redistribute funds to enable currently weaker counties to compete better, thus giving us a better League and a better Championship?

This is not some pipe dream, it's obvious stuff.

You can give all the funds to Carlow, Leitrim and Fermanagh and Kilkenny footballers and they’re still not getting anywhere close to even a provincial title. It’s not about funding, it’s about numbers and that’s where the big counties have the advantage. There will be a good number of county players who won’t bother next year because of this ridiculous, backwards decision. Change will come though over the next few years. Players like Mickey Quinn deserve to have several championship games in the summer against teams of similar standard so that they can develop.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 08:23:02 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.

Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.

What a take. Why don’t we get the Bishop back to throw in the ball too.
Or why don't we make the League more equitable in terms of format and redistribute funds to enable currently weaker counties to compete better, thus giving us a better League and a better Championship?

This is not some pipe dream, it's obvious stuff.

Sharing of funds is a pipe dream. A very bad one. It would take massive injections of cash, not just sharing what is there. If what Dublin, Mayo, Kerry etc are doing the right thing do we:

A: Fund every county in exact manner as this so that in 10/12 years we have developed all these players over time to be at same level. This will take huge injections of funds while the money from Inter county game will start dwindle. Or
B: Cut the money into these counties and redistribute it round to every other county in equal amounts for football and hurling. Waterford footballers and Kilkenny Hurlers to receive exact same funding.

Yeah. That’s happening.
Make a rule that a set percentage of each county's sponsorship goes to a central fund to be redistributed equally per county.

Say you get to keep, 50% or 60% and the rest goes to the central fund.

You say why? I say why not?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 08:26:30 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.

Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.

What a take. Why don’t we get the Bishop back to throw in the ball too.
Or why don't we make the League more equitable in terms of format and redistribute funds to enable currently weaker counties to compete better, thus giving us a better League and a better Championship?

This is not some pipe dream, it's obvious stuff.

You can give all the funds to Carlow, Leitrim and Fermanagh and Kilkenny footballers and they’re still not getting anywhere close to even a provincial title. It’s not about funding, it’s about numbers and that’s where the big counties have the advantage. There will be a good number of county players who won’t bother next year because of this ridiculous, backwards decision. Change will come though over the next few years. Players like Mickey Quinn deserve to have several championship games in the summer against teams of similar standard so that they can develop.
Of course big counties have the advantage of numbers.

That isn't a reason to banish counties.

Do Gibraltar have the numbers Germany do? Do Ireland?

If Ireland were told, "sorry lads, ye're no longer competing against the top countries", what do you think we'd say?

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 23, 2021, 08:30:27 PM
This happens every two years you imbecile.

Apart from those rare occasions when Ireland qualifies.

You don’t even know what it is that you want.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 23, 2021, 08:34:36 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.

Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.

What a take. Why don’t we get the Bishop back to throw in the ball too.
Or why don't we make the League more equitable in terms of format and redistribute funds to enable currently weaker counties to compete better, thus giving us a better League and a better Championship?

This is not some pipe dream, it's obvious stuff.

Sharing of funds is a pipe dream. A very bad one. It would take massive injections of cash, not just sharing what is there. If what Dublin, Mayo, Kerry etc are doing the right thing do we:

A: Fund every county in exact manner as this so that in 10/12 years we have developed all these players over time to be at same level. This will take huge injections of funds while the money from Inter county game will start dwindle. Or
B: Cut the money into these counties and redistribute it round to every other county in equal amounts for football and hurling. Waterford footballers and Kilkenny Hurlers to receive exact same funding.

Yeah. That’s happening.
Make a rule that a set percentage of each county's sponsorship goes to a central fund to be redistributed equally per county.

Say you get to keep, 50% or 60% and the rest goes to the central fund.

You say why? I say why not?

The sponsor would just build a gym/pool/centre for the county instead of handing over an actual cheque. There’s always ways around stuff like that
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 08:42:21 PM
This happens every two years you imbecile.

Apart from those rare occasions when Ireland qualifies.

You don’t even know what it is that you want.
Calling me an imbecile isn't doing very much for you.

And the rest of your response doesn't even make any sense.

Calling people who disagree with you "imbeciles" is the standard of argument that saw the ultra-elitist Proposal B turfed out on its ear today.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 23, 2021, 08:52:07 PM
You said “If Ireland were told, "sorry lads, ye're no longer competing against the top countries", what do you think we'd say”.

Meanwhile on repeat, every two years Ireland play out a league system in order to qualify for the final stages of a tournament.

You’re not an imbecile because you’re erratic here. You’re not an imbecile because you’re inconsistent here. You’re not an imbecile because you’re a hypocrite here.

You’re not even an imbecile because you display these exact same tendencies every single time you enter a discussion.

You’re an imbecile because you do all this and still think you’re clever enough to cover up your erraticisms, your inconsistencies, and your hypocrisy, by ignoring people when it’s pointed out.

And thus, you deserve to be called out as an imbecile. Every. f**king. Time. You. Type.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 09:01:45 PM
You said “If Ireland were told, "sorry lads, ye're no longer competing against the top countries", what do you think we'd say”.

Meanwhile on repeat, every two years Ireland play out a league system in order to qualify for the final stages of a tournament.

You’re not an imbecile because you’re erratic here. You’re not an imbecile because you’re inconsistent here. You’re not an imbecile because you’re a hypocrite here.

You’re not even an imbecile because you display these exact same tendencies every single time you enter a discussion.

You’re an imbecile because you do all this and still think you’re clever enough to cover up your erraticisms, your inconsistencies, and your hypocrisy, by ignoring people when it’s pointed out.

And thus, you deserve to be called out as an imbecile. Every. f**king. Time. You. Type.

You had a month to come up with arguments.

You failed completely. Your proposed system was an ultra-elitist Division 1 in which all eight teams would qualify for the knockout round.  ;D

And now you're reduced to this.

If you're going to reference international soccer, at least know how it works. You don't.

Every country gets a shot at qualifying for Euros and World Cups. Every country is treated equally.

One of the pleasant side effects of today's rejection of Proposal Bonkers is the extent to which it has riled you right up.

That rant above, my friend, that's the rant of an imbecile.

Projection is a terrible thing.



Title: Re: Congress
Post by: GAABoardMod5 on October 23, 2021, 09:11:19 PM
Sid and wobbler - feuds lead to bans.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 23, 2021, 09:13:21 PM
Fair enough mod.

Only one of us has history of feuds.

But I’ll step away. All done.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 23, 2021, 09:24:48 PM
An interview with an inter-county player from a traditionally weaker county who has actually thought deeply about the issues.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40285874.html

Neil Ewing is an everyman inter-county footballer who has become disillusioned with the continued disenfranchisement of Gaelic football’s lesser lights. He reached out to Kieran Shannon.

As we rise to our feet, Neil Ewing distills the essence of the past three hours spent in his compelling company.

“If you look at the GAA’s website, it states the association was formed because at the time ‘largely only the gentry and aristocracy were allowed to meaningfully participate in sport’.

“Well, you could tie that back to what is happening now — these days it’s largely only the gentry and aristocracy of Gaelic football that are allowed to meaningfully participate in the sport.”

In the 20-plus years I’ve worked in journalism, Ewing is that rare species: An active inter-county hurler or footballer who has actively initiated our meeting. His proactivity isn’t prompted out of any sense of self-promotion but rather, as he phrased it in his initial correspondence, out of “a mixture of anger, disdain, and hope”.

While he reckons he will watch “every minute” of the Super 8s to learn from the best and see what he can apply to his own game, for him the advent of the new format encapsulates the “dangerous place” the GAA as an organisation is in.

If you tolerate this, then a full-blown tiered Championship for your children will be next. A tiered Championship isn’t what he dreamed about as a child.

Ewing happens to play for Sligo — has done so for 11 seasons now — but to reduce his thoughts as merely that of a Sligo footballer, even one who has captained the county in Championship, would be both unfair and unwise.

He’s not so much an unknown — even Secret — Footballer as the Everyman Footballer: Physically ripped and optimistic by nature but increasingly disillusioned by experience.

As he explains, he could just as easily be talking from the experience of a player with Westmeath, Laois, Limerick, Clare, Wexford, Fermanagh, Louth, Derry, Armagh, Meath, Antrim, Offaly, Down… The silenced majority.

At some point over the past decade or the previous one, each of those counties would have played in at least one provincial final — and, almost without exception, been competitive in it.

Most of them would have played in an All-Ireland quarter-final, some a semi-final, even a final.

A good few would have made it to a Division One league semi-final or final during the noughties.

Can you picture any of them making another one any year soon?

Well, why not? What happened? What changed?

Surely that means things need to change now?

Yet all he hears is scrap those provincials, dump most of the aforementioned counties into a cellar Championship while the gentry and aristocracy continue to enjoy the perks and privileges that go with being members of the exclusive Super 8s club.

For him, that’s merely tackling — and reinforcing — the symptoms of the problem instead of addressing the root causes of the problem.

Counties have been let drift and now the GAA seem ready to cut them adrift, rather than reach out and bring them back towards shore.

Someone’s got to shout Stop. Might as well be him.

Kieran if possible would like to chat sometime on the issues which I think are major for the GAA based on what counties like ourselves have experienced over the last number of years.

Counties losing ambition.

Counties copying outdated methods that brought success to other counties in the past. No innovation.

Players in every county not been given an equal opportunity to develop their potential.

Dwindling interest in playing and attending club games due to constant negativity in the media about our great games.

Senior inter-county is just the tip of the iceberg — the real problems are in how counties are developing club and ‘elite’ players from underage up. If this was done more optimally then every county would be able to produce 20-30 competitive players.

All this talk of tiers. Tiers are not the solution. They will kill the game in many counties. If we need tiers, how come Sligo could play in three Connacht finals between 2007 and 2012 with no more than two points between the teams?

- Regards Neil Ewing

“This,” explains Neil Ewing upon reflecting on life as an inter-county footballer, “is not what I signed up for.”

This is not how the dream was packaged to him.

The first time he aspired to be a county player was back when he was eight, 21 years ago now. Sligo, coached by Mickey Moran, had won through to the Connacht final, against a Mayo side that had contested the previous year’s All-Ireland final. His parents weren’t of GAA stock so he had never been at an inter-county game before but like nearly every kid in the county, he was brought along to Hyde Park that day.

It’s still ingrained in his mind and soul: The long walk to the ground in the drizzling rain, the waft of burgers and chips, the reception from the terraces the players received upon dashing out of the tunnel.

Sligo lost by a point but the subsequent defiance and pride of the supporters resonated as strongly with him as any sense of disappointment.

“The following day I was with my mum in the post office and the guy behind the counter was talking to me about the game and how Sligo were robbed. And I remember being struck by how moved that guy was by Sligo football. How this was something which would be really good to be part of. That’s when I first had the thought — ‘I want to play for Sligo.’”

Over the years the dream became progressively bigger and more real. He was in the terraces when Sligo beat Mayo in Markievicz Park in 2000, in Croker when they played the Dubs in 2001 having shocked a Kildare side that had contested the previous year’s All-Ireland final; there again when they shocked Tyrone and rattled Armagh in 2002. By the time he was called up to the panel as a 19-year-old in 2008, Sligo were reigning Connacht champions.

There’ve been some magical days since. Turning over both Galway and Mayo in 2010. Ambushing Galway in Salthill in 2012, then giving Roscommon the same shock-and-awe treatment in 2015.

“At work in the bank you’d be walking down the street at lunchtime the following Monday and there’s people talking about football who normally wouldn’t have any interest in it. That’s what sustains a player. That’s what grows a game in a county. You don’t have to have it every year. But the way it’s going now…”

He proceeds to tell you through another Monday after a big game. This summer Sligo were hammered by 21 points by Galway. Few salutes in the workplace or on the street this time. Instead, only bemused, even derisory, headshakes.

“You’ll be at work from October to June telling a colleague, ‘I can’t do that, we’re training tonight’, or explaining why you’re eating what you’re eating because it helps with your recovery from training the night before. Then you come back in after you’ve lost by 21 points in the Championship at the weekend and they’re saying, ‘Was it worth all that training?! You’re daft in the head!’

“Over the years we’ve been lucky in Sligo in that we haven’t had a massive turnover in players but I can see now lads wondering if it’s worth it. Either they’re getting ridiculed by the small number of supporters there are in the county or they’re being ridiculed by friends and work colleagues who don’t get why they’re putting so much into it.”

The way he sees it, everyone seems to have got caught and swept away in this spiralling cycle of negativity: Media, supporters, clubs, county boards, and ultimately, even the players.

“After the Galway game, people are telling you, ‘You’ll never beat them.’ In the back of my mind I’m thinking that we beat them in 2012 and we have the players to compete at that level. But then the media will talk about tiers being the only way to go to avoid these one-sided games and fans start to buy into it. ‘Ah sure, they have to do something, they have to change the Championship.’ And you see players buying into it that then.

“There’s a clamour to implement tiers like we have in hurling but you’re not comparing like with like. Most of the country is wasteland when it comes to hurling. In hurling the tiers are a progression because you’re trying to improve the game from where it was 10-15 years ago but in football tiers would be proof of how we’ve regressed from 10-15 years ago when the Championship was much more competitive.

“People talk about small populations. Croatia has only four million people and they can reach a World Cup. Every county should have the capacity to put out 20-30 footballers that can compete.

“You need to address why the Championship has become uncompetitive before you start tinkering any more with the Championship. You should be trying to address and close the gap that has opened between the counties, not come up with a system that reflects and perpetuates that gap.”

So why has the football Championship become so less competitive and democratic than it was in the noughties when counties like Sligo were reaching Division One league semi-finals and All-Ireland quarter-finals and winning Connacht en route?

A combination of factors, he outlines. “First of all, the level of professionalism wasn’t there in some of the bigger counties.”

They subsequently got their act together. John Costello with Pat Gilroy in Dublin. Closer to where Ewing lives, Donegal, under Jim McGuiness, north of the border; Mayo, under James Horan, south of the border.

Meanwhile the mid-tier counties became more scatter-gunned and less ambitious in how they went about their business. Over the years, a veteran like Ewing has experienced all kinds of set-ups — some good, some middling, and some that have been way off.

There have been seasons where Ewing and most of his county team-mates would have played with their clubs well into October and before the end of the month would have had to right back into pre-season with the county. Gym Monday, pitch Tuesday, gym Wednesday, off Thursday, pitch Friday night when the Dublin lads would be back, gym Saturday, pitch again Sunday.

And that would be with barely a ball seen on that pitch, right through all of November, December, even January. One Friday night they had a heavy physical pitch session, then at 6.45am the following morning Ewing was at the doorstep of a team-mate to bring him to a challenge match across the country. Unsurprisingly, several players picked up injuries during that game — and Sligo failed to emerge from Division Three.

Some commentators will ascribe such insanity to the perils of “science” but Ewing is discerning enough to know science was never involved in that equation. Science is about discovering and aiding good practice. If it’s bad practice, it’s bad science. In fact, it’s not science at all. All around the country every team is training hard but not every team is training efficiently.

There are and have been set-ups that haven’t adequately known what they are at because the county board that appointed them wouldn’t know what to look for. Ask them if they’re afflicted more by ignorance or apathy and they’d probably tell you they don’t know and they don’t care.

“The constant negativity and perception that is being fed down from some pundits has become reality for a lot of county boards. They feel they have no right to compete with these teams. ‘Why should we try to compete with them?’ It’s just about getting fixtures played, we’ll get it done within budget and close it off for the year and move on – ‘This is our place in the GAA.’”

The way he sees it, counties should be doing a lot more to help themselves. That’s why he has such admiration for Carlow and the Turlough O’Brien project in recent years.

“They’ve stood up for themselves and said: ‘We’re capable of better than this.’”

But there’s another party that could help the counties help themselves — Croke Park. He looks at how the major sports in the most capitalist country in the world, America, and how they’re nearly socialist in ensuring a competitive balance through interventions like the draft system and a salary cap. The GAA approach in contrast strikes him as Darwinistic, laissez faire. They need to give more of a helping hand to counties, even if that means that hand has to occasionally wag the finger.

“If it was a financial issue rather than a football one, Croke Park would be stepping in. Sligo produce a series of accounts to Croke Park at the end of the year and Croke Park might go ‘Okay, you need help on this.’ And they have done that in the case of Sligo and other counties in the past — they’ve sent people down from HQ to help with their finances.

“I think the same should apply on the football end of it. Counties should be answerable to suitably-qualified people in Croke Park and outline: ‘This is what we’re doing to develop football within the county’ and then Croke Park need to go back to them to say: ‘Well, based on what you’ve done over the last six months, we’re not happy with where you are.’”

He’s not just talking about the senior inter-county game and Croke Park identifying people like Jim McGuinness to be involved in the interview and recruitment process of a management team. It’s how clubs and counties are developing players.

“At the moment you see in counties they’re going down the chain until they get someone who’ll say ‘yes’ to taking a development squad and then they’re told, ‘Here’s your cones and bibs and balls.’ There’s no framework set out.”

For him it’s not so much an issue of providing finance. “If you were to turn around and give every county in Ireland the same funding that’s given to Dublin, it wouldn’t spent efficiently,” he contends. It’s more an issue of offering expertise.

And yet, from what he can gather, new GAA president John Horan’s big idea is to bring in some tiered Championship in the format, the Na Fianna clubman probably having no idea of just how much damage altering the league a decade did for the Championship competitiveness of the mid-tier counties.

Back in the noughties Sligo were just one of many mid-tier counties that were playing the likes of Kerry and Dublin and Mayo in the league. Then, for some reason, the GAA did away with 16 teams in Division One and instead reduced it to eight. There was the start of the slippery road to the Super 8.


“There’s no doubt about it, Division One is a very good competition in its own right — the best teams in the country are playing week in week out against each other. But what has happened is that you’ve had five or six teams who have been constantly in Division One pushing each other onto a new level. What you have then outside of a revolving door of three or four teams is that the reverse has applied — if you’re playing week in week out in Division Four, that’s the level you adapt to. Similarly in Division Three, even Division Two.

“People talk about a top-tier Championship with 16 teams but those teams in Division Two at the moment still won’t be able to compete with the top six teams in the country.

“You’re going to have a tiered Championship where teams are still only going to get wiped off the pitch.

“If you want to get better, you have to play outside your comfort zone. And without getting too lofty or aspirational, the official guide of the GAA explicitly states at the outset that its basic aim is the preservation and promotion of the games in the 32 counties. So I would sacrifice Division One and how those top teams have made each other better and let them take a step back and pull the other teams up.


“The last two seasons Clare have been in Division Two. A decade ago that would have meant they’d have been exposed to playing Dublin. Imagine Dublin going down to Ennis next spring. It’d be a competitive game because Dublin wouldn’t yet be at Championship speed. Youngsters would get to see their own players going up against the best in the country, the sponsors of these mid-tier counties would get some recognition because maybe TG4 or League Sunday would be covering it. And it would rise the standard of that mid-tier county.

“Now, it might bring the top teams back to the pack a bit but it would definitely rise the standard of the pack. And in a couple of years you’d have a more competitive Championship, especially in the provinces.

“Last year in the Championship we played Mayo, a perennial Division One team. They got a second goal late on to win by nine in the end but we learned so much from that game by being out of our comfort zone. Even the physicality; you learned you could get away with tackling a lot more aggressively against Division One teams. After that we beat Antrim, then lost to Meath by just two points in Navan. But then we had to wait 12 months to play another game against a Division One team.”

If it was up to him, the GAA should revert to the old 1A-1B format, or better still, ensure all counties are guaranteed several league games against some top counties. Again, it might mean the strong getting that bit weaker but, as he argues: “Would that be a terrible thing if it sustained the game in the other counties for generations to come?”

Right now, with the Super 8s, he sees the stronger are only going to get stronger.

“It exacerbates the problems we have. It’s nearly like running Division One of the league again in the summer.”

In the meantime, he’ll carry on carrying on.

“Why do I play? I’ve always wanted to be the best player that I could be. Some of my best friends are on the panel. I think I owe it to the younger lads on the panel to try and help them to bring their game to the next level.

“And call me mad but at the start of every season I’ve genuinely believed if we put it all together we can win the Connacht Championship. Myself and my girlfriend would have spoken over the years about maybe going away travelling but we haven’t because I can’t miss a year with Sligo as that year could be the year.”

Still protecting the dream, hoping it’ll remain one for future generations.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Itchy on October 23, 2021, 09:37:52 PM
Fair enough mod.

Only one of us has history of feuds.

But I’ll step away. All done.

All I see is this

"You are ignoring this user. Show me the post"

Try it for Sid, you'll feel so much better
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: StPatsAbu on October 23, 2021, 09:56:58 PM
Get a room lads
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Main Street on October 23, 2021, 11:45:47 PM
A minor enough tweak to Proposal B would solve a lot of problems, it would mean;
- the top teams all get a go at proper knockout
- the weaker teams would still have the chance of making the AI  knockout stages
- there would be a clear advantage to being in D1 vs D2, D2vD3 and D3vD4
- the Tailtean Cup would have a reward

Instead of 6-3-1-1, change it to 4-2-1-1 that makes the “Playoff Round’
Held at a neutral venue with the winners progressing to the Quarter Finals with home advantage when they get there. Top team in D1 plays D4 winners, D1 second plays D3 winners so also an advantage to finishing as high as possible in D1 to reduce risk of dead rubbers.
Losers of Playoff Round go to Qualifier R2.

Teams 5-8 in D1 and teams 3-6 in D2 play in AI Qualifier R1. Seeded according to league placement but neutral venues. Winners go to Qualifier R2 , losers are finally out.

4 Losers from Playoff Round and 4 winners from Qualifier R1 play in Qualifier R2, with the winners progressing into quarter-final. Open draw but cannot have a repeat pairing from Playoff Round.

Bottom 2 in D1 relegated to D2 and replaced by top 2 in D2.
Bottom 2 in D2 provisional relegated (see next point) and don’t get to play in Sam Maguire.  But they do play Tailteann along with D3 and D4 teams.
Winner of D3 promoted to D2 for next season, along with winners of Talteann

My explanation has probably made it seem more convoluted than it is, but it’s quite similar to proposal B.
Convuluted?  no it's just bull.  Prob B gone for a walk on the wild side,  4211   ;D
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 24, 2021, 12:36:04 AM
All today has done is inflict another season of hammerings and farcical games.

Only positive is people can't bitch about Dublin advantages anymore. They voted for plan B so when they do their annual stroll through Leinster people can't complain about their farcical advantages
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: thewobbler on October 24, 2021, 12:44:24 AM
“Let’s get  rid of the provincial championships”.

50 years ago: nobody would have even thought of it.

40 years ago: nobody would have even thought of it.

30 years ago: nobody would have even thought of it.

20 years ago: nobody would have even thought of it.

10 years ago: laughter.

Now: a very slight majority agrees.

—-

It’ll happen soon.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 24, 2021, 12:51:55 AM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.

Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.

What a take. Why don’t we get the Bishop back to throw in the ball too.
Or why don't we make the League more equitable in terms of format and redistribute funds to enable currently weaker counties to compete better, thus giving us a better League and a better Championship?

This is not some pipe dream, it's obvious stuff.

You can give all the funds to Carlow, Leitrim and Fermanagh and Kilkenny footballers and they’re still not getting anywhere close to even a provincial title. It’s not about funding, it’s about numbers and that’s where the big counties have the advantage. There will be a good number of county players who won’t bother next year because of this ridiculous, backwards decision. Change will come though over the next few years. Players like Mickey Quinn deserve to have several championship games in the summer against teams of similar standard so that they can develop.

That's it in a nutshell. No point in these players training to get hammered in the championship and what's worse for some of them is their own out of touch dinosaur delegates voted against a better championship for them.

They'd be better boff off sodding of to US/Australia rather than stay in Ireland to get battered/humiliated
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Blowitupref on October 24, 2021, 02:56:52 AM
All today has done is inflict another season of hammerings and farcical games.

Only positive is people can't bitch about Dublin advantages anymore. They voted for plan B so when they do their annual stroll through Leinster people can't complain about their farcical advantages

Got a link to that? fellas on off the ball reckon Dublin voted no.

Whatever the format there will be hammerings and farcical games. This year in the summer NFL we had Kerry beating Galway by 22 points and Tyrone by 16. Mayo beat Down by 13 points and Kildare beat Laois by 13.

In the lower divisions Derry beat Longford and Fermanagh by 16 and 19 points respectively. In Division Four, Louth saw off Sligo by 13 points and Carlow saw off Waterford by 15.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: seafoid on October 24, 2021, 04:03:01 AM
The core problem is the lack of competition
Ewing is right that this is Croke Park's problem.
Competition is the essence of sport.

You can’t change anything unless you admit that something has  gone wrong.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 24, 2021, 08:33:29 AM
A slight majority of the delegates voted for the Proposal.
Is that in effect the GAA admitting that the current AI SF Championship has "gone wrong"?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: seafoid on October 24, 2021, 09:09:16 AM
https://youtu.be/G7qEivYkgZM
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 24, 2021, 09:32:54 AM
All today has done is inflict another season of hammerings and farcical games.

Only positive is people can't bitch about Dublin advantages anymore. They voted for plan B so when they do their annual stroll through Leinster people can't complain about their farcical advantages

Got a link to that? fellas on off the ball reckon Dublin voted no.

Their lack of public comment would suggest they were against but didn't want to be seen opposing Horan and Costello.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 24, 2021, 09:50:19 AM
A slight majority of the delegates voted for the Proposal.
Is that in effect the GAA admitting that the current AI SF Championship has "gone wrong"?
The question should be: why has it gone wrong?

The why is the bit nobody wants to address.

That's too hard.

And yet: Monaghan - with a population of just 60k, have established themselves as a top six team. They got into the eight team Division 1 and stayed there, at just the right time, just as the gaps between Division 1 and the rest started to open up. They found themselves on the right side of the great divide in standards.

If Monaghan, with a population of 60k, can regularly compete with Dublin given the same diet of ultra-competitive football - and they generally have competed - the argument for cutting most of the counties of Ireland out of inter-county football and setting up a new ultra-elitist structure falls flat on its face.

The argument is simple - and yet undeniably true - you give teams the same diet of regular competitive football in the NFL. You abolish the 8 team Division 1.

And then you watch the gaps narrow.





Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 24, 2021, 09:57:16 AM
“Let’s get  rid of the provincial championships”.

50 years ago: nobody would have even thought of it.

40 years ago: nobody would have even thought of it.

30 years ago: nobody would have even thought of it.

20 years ago: nobody would have even thought of it.

10 years ago: laughter.

Now: a very slight majority agrees.

—-

It’ll happen soon.
People have been talking about it for decades.

The 1984 Centenary Cup, and the same format in 1985, a knockout competition based on an All Ireland open draw format, happened because there was public debate about abolishing the provinces then.

The 2000 proposal to turn the championship into a conference system happened because there was public debate about two things: i) abolishing the provinces and ii) players wanted an end to one match and out.

The 2001 back door format happened for the same reasons.

And yet those who want the provincials abolished have never dealt with the reasons so many people want them retained.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: seafoid on October 24, 2021, 10:06:12 AM
A slight majority of the delegates voted for the Proposal.
Is that in effect the GAA admitting that the current AI SF Championship has "gone wrong"?
The question should be: why has it gone wrong?

The why is the bit nobody wants to address.

That's too hard.

And yet: Monaghan - with a population of just 60k, have established themselves as a top six team. They got into the eight team Division 1 and stayed there, at just the right time, just as the gaps between Division 1 and the rest started to open up. They found themselves on the right side of the great divide in standards.

If Monaghan, with a population of 60k, can regularly compete with Dublin given the same diet of ultra-competitive football - and they generally have competed - the argument for cutting most of the counties of Ireland out of inter-county football and setting up a new ultra-elitist structure falls flat on its face.

The argument is simple - and yet undeniably true - you give teams the same diet of regular competitive football in the NFL. You abolish the 8 team Division 1.

And then you watch the gaps narrow.

The 8 team D1 is a huge part of the problem
But so is the inequality in training regimes. There was more competition when things were haphazard.
With semi professionalism there is none.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: seafoid on October 24, 2021, 10:28:23 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/keith-duggan-time-for-plan-c-as-proposal-b-is-just-plain-bonkers-1.4708136

Keith Duggan: Time for Plan C as Proposal B is just plain bonkers
Sideline Cut: Delegates will vote on worst collective idea since governmental tax on children’s shoes
Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 22:31
 
Keith Duggan

 
 
Proposal B is completely bonkers. It is absurd in the extreme, arguably the worst collective idea since the governmental tax on children’s shoes in the early 1980s. Photograph: Ryan Byrne/Inpho
 
 
Somewhere in the Billy Connolly comedy archives is a sketch where he claims that Mexican food is always the same dish, just folded differently. “That’s a burrito!” scolds the customer. “I ordered enchiladas! “Oh, so sorry sir,” says Connolly’s imagined waiter, leaning over and arranging the dish into a new presentation.
Something similar will happen at the GAA’s special congress today, when 183 delegates vote on whether they should change the venerable All-Ireland senior football championship into a burrito or an enchilada.
The original All-Ireland championship was drafted in simpler times and along the attractively clean provincial system, with the four best teams emerging from Ireland’s four green fields to duke it out in epic All-Ireland semi-finals and a final, to which people would cycle for days and sleep in barns in order to witness. Good times!
But it became clear, over the course of the 20th century, that certain counties were hogging the provincial silverware. We all know who they are. And that other counties – smaller, less-populous and less boastful, sometimes thoughtlessly referred to as “the weaker counties” as though they were wilfully puny of bicep and frail of breath – could not get a look in.
That is why landmark wins – Clare in 1992, Leitrim in 1994 – were regarded as minor miracles. They were a departure from the usual.
The recognition that the overall championship needs to evolve into something more inclusive is a good thing. The GAA has come up with two proposals, and it has become obvious that it’s the second one, named Proposal B, that has caught the eye. If passed it will do what it says on the tin by providing the nation with a new-look All-Ireland championship. There is just one flaw in the plan.
Absurd
It is completely bonkers. It is absurd in the extreme, arguably the worst collective idea since the governmental tax on children’s shoes in the early 1980s.
The first thing it will achieve is an instant end to the significance of the provincial championships which will, with a shake of the congressional wand, be reduced to pre-season warm-up competitions.
Where teams could once play for five significant cups (the four provincial cups and the All-Ireland), they now play for just one, the Sam Maguire. In other words, Proposal B will transform the All-Ireland into a contest in which almost no county will win anything, ever, again.
Think of all the hardcore, serious football county teams out there. Armagh have won a lone All-Ireland title in their history. Galway have won two titles, in close succession, since 1966. Outside Dublin and Kerry, the Sam Maguire has proven notoriously difficult to get hold of – which is why it is treated as sacred.
The second glaring problem is that the new proposal predicates All-Ireland participation on league performance. For decades the league was treated as a kind of mechanics workshop in which counties built a racecar fit for the summer. Now it is the route to qualification.
The bizarre outcome here is that the three lowest-placed teams in division one will be EXCLUDED from the All-Ireland championship on a given year. So, the reward for playing in the highest division, against the best teams and then failing to finish in the top five is that three teams from the top eight miss out each year.
On league results of the last few years then counties like Tyrone, Galway, Donegal, Monaghan and Mayo will inevitably miss out on an All-Ireland season very soon. What purpose does that serve? How does that improve the competition?
One-sided games
Somewhere behind the dismayingly muddled thinking exists an egalitarian impulse and a genuine desire to allow more counties to flourish. But because the structure has been forcibly manipulated to guarantee three teams from the second, third or fourth divisions a passage to the All-Ireland quarter-finals, where they will play against division one sides, this will inevitably result in a series of one-sided games just when the contest should be peaking.
In other words, with one stroke the GAA will have managed to reduce the significance of the All-Ireland championship – conceived as a big nationwide Fossett’s circus of a tournament – into three meaningful games.
The it’s-not-perfect-but-it’s-a-solution argument doesn’t hold water. Superior alternatives have been in circulation for a long time.
In 2015, for instance, former Donegal manager Jim McGuinness drafted on these pages a new championship system which punished no county. That system, like Proposal B, rewards league performance, with the top 16 teams playing in the All-Ireland championship. But it also rewards the provincial championships, with four places reserved for the winners of those contests.
Crucially, it also outlined the development of a second All-Ireland championship tournament for the lower-placed 16 teams – to be televised and promoted as seriously as the Sam Maguire tournament.
It stipulated that games from both championships feature on double bills throughout, including an All-Ireland Day, in which both finals would take place in Croke Park.
Fewer tickets
That would, of course, mean fewer tickets for supporters from counties in the Sam Maguire game as four different counties would be represented. But it would be fair and democratic – and it would give new counties a taste of real glory and tradition. It would have been change with purpose.
This new proposal fails on that front. It’s a dismaying fudge: change for the sake of change. The outcome will remain the same. It will advance the cause of no county and improve nothing.
It will be as big a disaster as the ill-devised and instantly forgotten “Super 8s” brainwave of a few seasons ago. Only the counties can save themselves now –and they probably won’t.

Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 24, 2021, 10:57:13 AM
A slight majority of the delegates voted for the Proposal.
Is that in effect the GAA admitting that the current AI SF Championship has "gone wrong"?
The question should be: why has it gone wrong?

The why is the bit nobody wants to address.

That's too hard.

And yet: Monaghan - with a population of just 60k, have established themselves as a top six team. They got into the eight team Division 1 and stayed there, at just the right time, just as the gaps between Division 1 and the rest started to open up. They found themselves on the right side of the great divide in standards.

If Monaghan, with a population of 60k, can regularly compete with Dublin given the same diet of ultra-competitive football - and they generally have competed - the argument for cutting most of the counties of Ireland out of inter-county football and setting up a new ultra-elitist structure falls flat on its face.

The argument is simple - and yet undeniably true - you give teams the same diet of regular competitive football in the NFL. You abolish the 8 team Division 1.

And then you watch the gaps narrow.

The 8 team D1 is a huge part of the problem
But so is the inequality in training regimes. There was more competition when things were haphazard.
With semi professionalism there is none.
The 8 team D1 drives gaps in professionalism. It's chicken and egg. Monaghan will train in a professional manner because they know they have to train in a professional manner to keep their place in D1.

Sligo or Wexford don't, because you don't have to train in a professional manner to play in D4.

If Sligo or Wexford were in Division 2A or 2B, they have a realistic aim - get into the top two of the eight team Division they're in, and they're in Division 1A or 1B the next year.

And because the quality of 1A and 1B is diluted a bit compared to the current 8 team Division 1, they then have a decent chance of actually staying in 1A or 1B if they get promoted.

The level you play at will drive how professional you are.

But currently, the six regulars in D1 have driven standards so high that the teams coming out of D2, your Roscommons, Meaths, Kildares and Cavans etc., invariably can't live with D1 football, and go straight back down. They can't establish themselves and it drives demoralisation.

When the element of chaos was introduced by the pandemic, straight knockout football in winter, weird things started happening - Cork beating Kerry, Tipp beating Cork, Cavan winning Ulster.

That wouldn't have happened had it been a normal summer championship coming off the back of a normal D1,D2,D3,D4 NFL season, because the big boys would have been too well prepared and primed.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 24, 2021, 11:25:18 AM
It appears they need to be linked to the All Ireland to be deemed of any worth. They should be able to support themselves as a stand alone competition if they are that valuable.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 24, 2021, 11:30:11 AM
why has no one suggested giving provincial winners league points maybe 1 or 2 league points before league stage  starts that will  link provincials to all ireland tho it would make it even easier for kerry and dublin.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 24, 2021, 11:41:42 AM
It appears they need to be linked to the All Ireland to be deemed of any worth. They should be able to support themselves as a stand alone competition if they are that valuable.
This is such a dumb take.

If a 32 team All-Ireland Super League for clubs was set up, with D1 consisting of Corofin, Crossmaglen, Ballymun, Kilmacud Crokes, Dr. Crokes, Nemo Rangers, Castlebar Mitchels and Slaughtneil, with the winners of this Super League competition being declared All-Ireland champions, then your individual county championships would cease to mean much.

Which according to the above take would mean that they have or had no intrinsic value.

Crossmaglen won 19 Armagh championships out of 20. According to the above take, that would mean the Armagh championship had no intrinsic worth and Crossmaglen should have left the other clubs in Armagh behind and sought a new challenge in a new competition against the best clubs in Ireland.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 24, 2021, 11:45:53 AM
All today has done is inflict another season of hammerings and farcical games.

Only positive is people can't bitch about Dublin advantages anymore. They voted for plan B so when they do their annual stroll through Leinster people can't complain about their farcical advantages

Got a link to that? fellas on off the ball reckon Dublin voted no.

Whatever the format there will be hammerings and farcical games. This year in the summer NFL we had Kerry beating Galway by 22 points and Tyrone by 16. Mayo beat Down by 13 points and Kildare beat Laois by 13.

In the lower divisions Derry beat Longford and Fermanagh by 16 and 19 points respectively. In Division Four, Louth saw off Sligo by 13 points and Carlow saw off Waterford by 15.

Yes it’s funny that. The likes of Mayo (Div 1) stuffing Leitrim (Div 4) by 25 points leads people to say, it’s time for a two tier championship. But when a Div 1 team stuffs another Div 1 team,  silence.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 24, 2021, 11:54:49 AM
A slight majority of the delegates voted for the Proposal.
Is that in effect the GAA admitting that the current AI SF Championship has "gone wrong"?
The question should be: why has it gone wrong?

The why is the bit nobody wants to address.

That's too hard.

And yet: Monaghan - with a population of just 60k, have established themselves as a top six team. They got into the eight team Division 1 and stayed there, at just the right time, just as the gaps between Division 1 and the rest started to open up. They found themselves on the right side of the great divide in standards.

If Monaghan, with a population of 60k, can regularly compete with Dublin given the same diet of ultra-competitive football - and they generally have competed - the argument for cutting most of the counties of Ireland out of inter-county football and setting up a new ultra-elitist structure falls flat on its face.

The argument is simple - and yet undeniably true - you give teams the same diet of regular competitive football in the NFL. You abolish the 8 team Division 1.

And then you watch the gaps narrow.

The 8 team D1 is a huge part of the problem
But so is the inequality in training regimes. There was more competition when things were haphazard.
With semi professionalism there is none.
The 8 team D1 drives gaps in professionalism. It's chicken and egg. Monaghan will train in a professional manner because they know they have to train in a professional manner to keep their place in D1.

Sligo or Wexford don't, because you don't have to train in a professional manner to play in D4.

If Sligo or Wexford were in Division 2A or 2B, they have a realistic aim - get into the top two of the eight team Division they're in, and they're in Division 1A or 1B the next year.

And because the quality of 1A and 1B is diluted a bit compared to the current 8 team Division 1, they then have a decent chance of actually staying in 1A or 1B if they get promoted.

The level you play at will drive how professional you are.

But currently, the six regulars in D1 have driven standards so high that the teams coming out of D2, your Roscommons, Meaths, Kildares and Cavans etc., invariably can't live with D1 football, and go straight back down. They can't establish themselves and it drives demoralisation.

When the element of chaos was introduced by the pandemic, straight knockout football in winter, weird things started happening - Cork beating Kerry, Tipp beating Cork, Cavan winning Ulster.

That wouldn't have happened had it been a normal summer championship coming off the back of a normal D1,D2,D3,D4 NFL season, because the big boys would have been too well prepared and primed.

Yes, Kerry are regular div 1. Cork in Div 2 for a few seasons. Cavan and Tipp hovering between 2-3 usually, but now in Div 4. So the league isn’t an accurate measure, because in a one off knockout  game, these counties  can compete.

Cork might beat Kerry in a 7 game league style championship, but you know Kerry will do more than enough over 7 games because of their squad size and quality of players. I think it’s brilliant when counties break through, Westmeath, Tipp, Cavan, Laois etc, but what hope do they have in an elitist competition like Proposal B
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Derry Optimist on October 24, 2021, 12:09:07 PM
Unfortunately as the current GAA Championship is based on an inherently unequal system ie the Provincial system there are going to be anomalies in every revised system.The best we can hope for is to minimise those anomalies.

As every county yesterday said that they were for change we have to take them at their word.It would seem to me that the two biggest bones of contention re Proposal B were that there was no link for the Provincial winners to join the proposed League championsip stucture which according to Tom Parsons, in an excellent interview yesterday, is sacrosanct.

The second major problem with Proposal B is that the team which finishes 6th in Division One would not qualify for the knock out stages.One would think that there are enough brains in the GAA to accommodate those changes whilst still maintaining  the other main core principles of Proposal B.
 What is important now is for all sides to gather around the table immediately, thresh out the compromise as I have suggested and have one agreed motion in place for Congress.

Players who are at the heart of this, particularly in a the three lower division, will not take much more and will soon walk away. After all they are the ones who work the hardest and deserve the greatest respect.

 It is vitally important that the GAA OFFICIALS IN EVERY COUNTY, recognise this.Otherwise, we will have a totally disaffected playing population and therefore a lower quality competition and less  supporters in all grades in all provinces.
Thus the need for a strong positive leadership from the top table in Croke Park and in all four provinces is vital.There is no room for the totally unreasonable and nasty, negative comments made by spokesmen in three provinces during the last few weeks.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 24, 2021, 12:22:06 PM
Two Provincial Secretaries showed their true nasty colours alright.
Despite being thrown as a take it or leave it motion, without any  official attempt to sell it until an 11th hour endorsement and with some illogical flaws, B still got a majority of the votes.
There's an appetite for "change" but to what and how long till something which can command 60% is arrived at?
Meanwhile we'll have 29 Provincial games of which about 10 will be "vibrant" , majority of games played in February and March with a few games spread over April and May and the "elite"  , (who shouldn't be allowed play at all in Bennycake world) then playing on in June and July.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 24, 2021, 12:27:45 PM
how bout a playoff between 5th and 6th the loser is out
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: seafoid on October 24, 2021, 12:29:36 PM
Two Provincial Secretaries showed their true nasty colours alright.
Despite being thrown as a take it or leave it motion, without any  official attempt to sell it until an 11th hour endorsement and with some illogical flaws, B still got a majority of the votes.
There's an appetite for "change" but to what and how long till something which can command 60% is arrived at?
Meanwhile we'll have 29 Provincial games of which about 10 will be "vibrant" , majority of games played in February and March with a few games spread over April and May and the "elite"  , (who shouldn't be allowed play at all in Bennycake world) then playing on in June and July.
The GAA can't go back to the status quo ante. The pandemic kiboshed the Super 8s and they aren't coming back either.
If the proposal isn't good enough they will have to keep iterating away until it is.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 24, 2021, 12:42:00 PM
They're going back to 2017 but with Tailteann Cup added.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 24, 2021, 12:47:59 PM

The second major problem with Proposal B is that the team which finishes 6th in Division One would not qualify for the knock out stages.
This is an unsolvable problem as long as you have an eight team Division 1 proposed for the Championship.

If you have six teams qualifying from an eight team Division 1, that tips the balance far too much towards there being a load of pointless, poorly attended football matches, which simultaneously increase the imbalance between Division 1 teams and the rest.

The top teams coast through. There is little jeopardy, it becomes effectively a warm up for the top three or four teams. That means you don't have sporting integrity when it comes to the battle for 6th/7th in the latter stages of the competition because too many other teams are already through by that stage.

I would argue five teams qualifying from an eight team group is still too much and still leads to too much pointless football.

For those who want a League as Championship system - and I don't - I'm tellin' yis now, an eight team Division 1 is a complete no no.

Any League as Championship has to be 1A/1B/2A/2B, with seven of your quarter-finalists coming from the two Division 1 groups (top 3 in each plus the winner of a play-off between the two 4th placed teams in each D1 group) and one quarter-final place for the winner of the Division 2 competition (Winner 2A v Winner 2B would play off).

You would have genuine competition in all divisions and genuine jeopardy in that competition.

I don't agree with that proposal - I would prefer to see that format played as the NFL in spring - but there is at least a decent argument for it to be used as the championship format.

Which there wasn't with Proposal B.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 24, 2021, 12:52:39 PM
kind of fed up with all the format talk now think ill take time out for a few months at least
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Eire90 on October 24, 2021, 01:01:50 PM
Just have two open draw knockout championships per year its the simplest way but no thats to simple and not enough money for them
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 24, 2021, 01:02:55 PM
Think about it.

Division 1 for 2022 is:
Dublin
Kerry
Tyrone
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Armagh
Kildare

Six qualify for the knockout stage.

Dublin and Kerry coast through, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal probably do too.

Why? Because the three "weak teams", Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare, get targeted as the teams to beat by the big boys. They're the big boys' "bankers" for wins.

So the only topic of interest becomes which of Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare manages to nab sixth place.

Dublin and Kerry go straight to an All-Ireland quarter-final, where they will meet the two weakest quarter-finalists. They coast through those.

Under this format, Dublin and Kerry's entire 2022 season consists of: a load of boring warm ups, lots of shadow boxing, then two matches to win the All-Ireland.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 24, 2021, 01:47:56 PM
kind of fed up with all the format talk now think ill take time out for a few months at least

Just have two open draw knockout championships per year its the simplest way but no thats to simple and not enough money for them

I thought you were taking a break?  ;D
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: From the Bunker on October 24, 2021, 01:51:55 PM
Think about it.

Division 1 for 2022 is:
Dublin
Kerry
Tyrone
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Armagh
Kildare

Six qualify for the knockout stage.

Dublin and Kerry coast through, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal probably do too.

Why? Because the three "weak teams", Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare, get targeted as the teams to beat by the big boys. They're the big boys' "bankers" for wins.

So the only topic of interest becomes which of Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare manages to nab sixth place.

Dublin and Kerry go straight to an All-Ireland quarter-final, where they will meet the two weakest quarter-finalists. They coast through those.

Under this format, Dublin and Kerry's entire 2022 season consists of: a load of boring warm ups, lots of shadow boxing, then two matches to win the All-Ireland.

You hit the nail on the head there Sid. Good Post.

The more things change the more they stay the same
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 24, 2021, 01:55:17 PM
Think about it.

Division 1 for 2022 is:
Dublin
Kerry
Tyrone
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Armagh
Kildare

Six qualify for the knockout stage.

Dublin and Kerry coast through, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal probably do too.

Why? Because the three "weak teams", Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare, get targeted as the teams to beat by the big boys. They're the big boys' "bankers" for wins.

So the only topic of interest becomes which of Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare manages to nab sixth place.

Dublin and Kerry go straight to an All-Ireland quarter-final, where they will meet the two weakest quarter-finalists. They coast through those.

Under this format, Dublin and Kerry's entire 2022 season consists of: a load of boring warm ups, lots of shadow boxing, then two matches to win the All-Ireland.

Yes, and in normal years, that’d be the likes of Westmeath, Fermanagh, Louth or Down (likely Cavan or Tipp this year, but last years NFL was a bit of a farce).

So, Dublin or Kerry v one of those few counties, resulting in a proper stuffing. So how does that solve the issue of big hammering? The Div3/4 winners getting a place is only a token gesture. A Benny Hill-style pat on the head, now slink off up the road, and leave the real football to the big boys.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: seafoid on October 24, 2021, 02:05:38 PM
Maybe UEFA could offer to come up with a rating for each county to see how big the gaps are.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: seafoid on October 24, 2021, 04:15:25 PM
Spillane is a tool

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/1024/1255662-spillane-wants-gaa-to-act-quickly-on-football-change/

Let's be realistic, society is very unequal. Communism and socialism were great ideas - that everybody should have equality - but they failed. Sport is a mirror image of society, where there's strong and weak, big and small etc."No matter what system you bring in, you're still going to get hammerings."


Title: Re: Congress
Post by: manfromdelmonte on October 24, 2021, 08:09:43 PM
Think about it.

Division 1 for 2022 is:
Dublin
Kerry
Tyrone
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Armagh
Kildare

Six qualify for the knockout stage.

Dublin and Kerry coast through, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal probably do too.

Why? Because the three "weak teams", Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare, get targeted as the teams to beat by the big boys. They're the big boys' "bankers" for wins.

So the only topic of interest becomes which of Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare manages to nab sixth place.

Dublin and Kerry go straight to an All-Ireland quarter-final, where they will meet the two weakest quarter-finalists. They coast through those.

Under this format, Dublin and Kerry's entire 2022 season consists of: a load of boring warm ups, lots of shadow boxing, then two matches to win the All-Ireland.
Mayo wouldn't have made the knockout stages in many recent years
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sidelineball on October 24, 2021, 09:40:54 PM
There’s nothing wrong with the way things are. The delegates are happy enough with it and that should be good enough for all concerned. The provincials are a part of history and must not be changed.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 24, 2021, 09:43:29 PM
Think about it.

Division 1 for 2022 is:
Dublin
Kerry
Tyrone
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Armagh
Kildare

Six qualify for the knockout stage.

Dublin and Kerry coast through, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal probably do too.

Why? Because the three "weak teams", Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare, get targeted as the teams to beat by the big boys. They're the big boys' "bankers" for wins.

So the only topic of interest becomes which of Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare manages to nab sixth place.

Dublin and Kerry go straight to an All-Ireland quarter-final, where they will meet the two weakest quarter-finalists. They coast through those.

Under this format, Dublin and Kerry's entire 2022 season consists of: a load of boring warm ups, lots of shadow boxing, then two matches to win the All-Ireland.

In what way will this current dubs team coast through? They aren't the invincible team they used to be
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sidelineball on October 24, 2021, 09:44:17 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.

Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.

Dead right. Keep it all the same, it’s working great.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: dublin7 on October 24, 2021, 11:03:39 PM
A good day for Gaelic Football, all told. As Keith Duggan said in today's Irish Times, the proposal was bonkers. B for bonkers.

Now to abolish the Tailteann Cup and the split season.

Dead right. Keep it all the same, it’s working great.

It's normally around this time of year the draw for next year's provincial championship takes place. Exciting times for the Leinster and Munster championship in particular. I'm sure the likes of Carlow/Wexford and Louth will be hoping to get the dubs and a chance for their game to be covered by RTE
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sid waddell on October 24, 2021, 11:57:06 PM
Think about it.

Division 1 for 2022 is:
Dublin
Kerry
Tyrone
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Armagh
Kildare

Six qualify for the knockout stage.

Dublin and Kerry coast through, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal probably do too.

Why? Because the three "weak teams", Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare, get targeted as the teams to beat by the big boys. They're the big boys' "bankers" for wins.

So the only topic of interest becomes which of Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare manages to nab sixth place.

Dublin and Kerry go straight to an All-Ireland quarter-final, where they will meet the two weakest quarter-finalists. They coast through those.

Under this format, Dublin and Kerry's entire 2022 season consists of: a load of boring warm ups, lots of shadow boxing, then two matches to win the All-Ireland.

In what way will this current dubs team coast through? They aren't the invincible team they used to be
By winning most or all of their matches in a division in which six of the eight would qualify?
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 25, 2021, 12:48:16 AM
There’s nothing wrong with the way things are. The delegates are happy enough with it
50.6% of them weren't  ;)
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: seafoid on October 25, 2021, 04:20:00 AM
Think about it.

Division 1 for 2022 is:
Dublin
Kerry
Tyrone
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Armagh
Kildare

Six qualify for the knockout stage.

Dublin and Kerry coast through, Tyrone, Mayo and Donegal probably do too.

Why? Because the three "weak teams", Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare, get targeted as the teams to beat by the big boys. They're the big boys' "bankers" for wins.

So the only topic of interest becomes which of Monaghan, Armagh and Kildare manages to nab sixth place.

Dublin and Kerry go straight to an All-Ireland quarter-final, where they will meet the two weakest quarter-finalists. They coast through those.

Under this format, Dublin and Kerry's entire 2022 season consists of: a load of boring warm ups, lots of shadow boxing, then two matches to win the All-Ireland.
Mayo wouldn't have made the knockout stages in many recent years
They didn't need to win the provincial championship until Covid reverted the system to knockout.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: seafoid on October 25, 2021, 11:33:56 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/for-all-the-claims-of-a-willingness-to-change-motion-19-was-well-short-of-60-support-1.4709585

Firstly, everyone accepted that the idea was flawed even if proponents argued that the status quo was more ruinously flawed.
Secondly, the ghost of the provincial championships – under motion 19 to be exiled to the early months of year – hovered over the assembly and possessed the thoughts of its most fervent devotees, the Ulster counties.
Their case was opened in melodramatic style by Fermanagh’s Tiarnach Mahon, who told congress: “This motion has the potential to destroy the dreams, hopes and aspirations of Fermanagh people.”
It wasn’t long before someone mordantly observed “sotto voce” that it wasn’t the motion but the Ulster championship which did that.
Of course revolutionary reforms rarely find allies in the prevailing elites, and it was noticeable that for all the protestations of willingness to change, all four of this year’s All-Ireland semi-finalists, who between them have occupied 35 of the 44 semi-final places available over the past 11 years, were believed to have opposed.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: seafoid on October 25, 2021, 11:47:09 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/promise-to-reform-flawed-option-b-later-not-enough-for-congress-1.4709560

How did the GAA end up rejecting the one vehicle for change on the table?
For a start the body that devised it, the Calendar Fixtures Task Force, had effectively been disbanded and in any case divided over what it wanted. Having started two years ago with two more or less equal proposals, the task force saw motion 18, their Option A - four eight-county, provincial based groups - fall without a word being spoken either for or against.
Lacking a coherent sponsor, the surviving reform lacked energy apart from the campaign mounted by the Gaelic Players Association in more recent weeks.
Yet listening to the debate with its 22 speakers - split 13-9 against the motion - it was impossible not to be struck by how well the proposition was presenting the case. From the start when former president John Horan took to the podium, the advocacy of those supporting change was persuasive.
Horan set out his feelings of disappointment that the Calendar Fixtures Task Force, which he had appointed, had split into camps and addressed perceived issues with the proposal, saying that he didn’t, “think the financial worry that’s out there for people is what it’s portrayed to be”.

Thematically the basic argument was made by Cork Central Council delegate Tracey Kennedy. “Fears and concerns about change are absolutely natural but if we look in our hearts nobody can say that the current structure is serving the majority of counties well.”

“Our footballers told us in no uncertain terms that if something doesn’t change you won’t see us again. That’s the reality. They left Castlebar in despair. Talking about crowds attending games, as county secretary I was dealing with ticket allocations for that game. Family members weren’t even there to support them. That’s how lonely it was. That’s what the current system is providing for the footballers of Leitrim. It’s now time to be brave,” - Leitrim secretary Declan Bohan
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Kickham csc on October 25, 2021, 04:41:30 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/promise-to-reform-flawed-option-b-later-not-enough-for-congress-1.4709560

How did the GAA end up rejecting the one vehicle for change on the table?
For a start the body that devised it, the Calendar Fixtures Task Force, had effectively been disbanded and in any case divided over what it wanted. Having started two years ago with two more or less equal proposals, the task force saw motion 18, their Option A - four eight-county, provincial based groups - fall without a word being spoken either for or against.
Lacking a coherent sponsor, the surviving reform lacked energy apart from the campaign mounted by the Gaelic Players Association in more recent weeks.
Yet listening to the debate with its 22 speakers - split 13-9 against the motion - it was impossible not to be struck by how well the proposition was presenting the case. From the start when former president John Horan took to the podium, the advocacy of those supporting change was persuasive.
Horan set out his feelings of disappointment that the Calendar Fixtures Task Force, which he had appointed, had split into camps and addressed perceived issues with the proposal, saying that he didn’t, “think the financial worry that’s out there for people is what it’s portrayed to be”.

Thematically the basic argument was made by Cork Central Council delegate Tracey Kennedy. “Fears and concerns about change are absolutely natural but if we look in our hearts nobody can say that the current structure is serving the majority of counties well.”

“Our footballers told us in no uncertain terms that if something doesn’t change you won’t see us again. That’s the reality. They left Castlebar in despair. Talking about crowds attending games, as county secretary I was dealing with ticket allocations for that game. Family members weren’t even there to support them. That’s how lonely it was. That’s what the current system is providing for the footballers of Leitrim. It’s now time to be brave,” - Leitrim secretary Declan Bohan

Because the alternative had major flaws. You can't propose changes and expect people to close their eyes and jump knowing that their is flaws in what your proposing. If it happened in business you'd be shown the door.

Regarding Ulster counties reluctance to change... we have a great championship, why would Ulster counties vote to remove a championship that both fans and players love simply because other provincial championships are failing. Since 2009 - All nine Ulster counties got to a final, 4 counties have won it, and Armagh and Derry seem poised to challenge again in the next couple of years.

It was noticeable that the hurling recommendations kept the Leinster and Munster championships in tact and kept them meaningful.

Also, there a number of changes that were due to come into effect for the 2022 season. Changes that hadn't been implemented yet. It's like a shit show where there seem no logical thinking behind this.

There are two major issues at the moment, Dublin's dominance in Leinster, and Kerry's in Munster and the impact on other counties.

I thought their was a proposal a couple years back to play the championships during the league, so the weaker counties still had something to play for right up to the end of the intercounty season. Did it die a death too? That would have kept all counties playing competitive football up to the end of the season


Title: Re: Congress
Post by: APM on October 25, 2021, 05:37:00 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/promise-to-reform-flawed-option-b-later-not-enough-for-congress-1.4709560

How did the GAA end up rejecting the one vehicle for change on the table?
For a start the body that devised it, the Calendar Fixtures Task Force, had effectively been disbanded and in any case divided over what it wanted. Having started two years ago with two more or less equal proposals, the task force saw motion 18, their Option A - four eight-county, provincial based groups - fall without a word being spoken either for or against.
Lacking a coherent sponsor, the surviving reform lacked energy apart from the campaign mounted by the Gaelic Players Association in more recent weeks.
Yet listening to the debate with its 22 speakers - split 13-9 against the motion - it was impossible not to be struck by how well the proposition was presenting the case. From the start when former president John Horan took to the podium, the advocacy of those supporting change was persuasive.
Horan set out his feelings of disappointment that the Calendar Fixtures Task Force, which he had appointed, had split into camps and addressed perceived issues with the proposal, saying that he didn’t, “think the financial worry that’s out there for people is what it’s portrayed to be”.

Thematically the basic argument was made by Cork Central Council delegate Tracey Kennedy. “Fears and concerns about change are absolutely natural but if we look in our hearts nobody can say that the current structure is serving the majority of counties well.”

“Our footballers told us in no uncertain terms that if something doesn’t change you won’t see us again. That’s the reality. They left Castlebar in despair. Talking about crowds attending games, as county secretary I was dealing with ticket allocations for that game. Family members weren’t even there to support them. That’s how lonely it was. That’s what the current system is providing for the footballers of Leitrim. It’s now time to be brave,” - Leitrim secretary Declan Bohan

Because the alternative had major flaws. You can't propose changes and expect people to close their eyes and jump knowing that their is flaws in what your proposing. If it happened in business you'd be shown the door.

Regarding Ulster counties reluctance to change... we have a great championship, why would Ulster counties vote to remove a championship that both fans and players love simply because other provincial championships are failing. Since 2009 - All nine Ulster counties got to a final, 4 counties have won it, and Armagh and Derry seem poised to challenge again in the next couple of years.

It was noticeable that the hurling recommendations kept the Leinster and Munster championships in tact and kept them meaningful.

Also, there a number of changes that were due to come into effect for the 2022 season. Changes that hadn't been implemented yet. It's like a shit show where there seem no logical thinking behind this.

There are two major issues at the moment, Dublin's dominance in Leinster, and Kerry's in Munster and the impact on other counties.

I thought their was a proposal a couple years back to play the championships during the league, so the weaker counties still had something to play for right up to the end of the intercounty season. Did it die a death too? That would have kept all counties playing competitive football up to the end of the season


Unfortunately you are wrong there.  Embarrassingly Armagh haven't contested a final since they won in 2008!
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: seafoid on October 25, 2021, 07:40:33 PM
There is something seriously wrong with competition when only 4 Division teams account for the majority of semi final appearances going back a while.
It's great that brave little Monaghan punches above its weight in Division 1 but there is still a glass ceiling when it comes to championship. 
Armagh and Kildare are some way off the pace and will probably go straight down again. Even playing Kerry and Dublin regularly is no panacea.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: sidelineball on October 25, 2021, 10:48:27 PM
Change is not something we should jump into. The delegates were right, The players will like what they tell them to like.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 25, 2021, 10:57:49 PM
Which delegates?
A majority voted for change!
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: ck on October 25, 2021, 11:37:47 PM
People saying that the vote at the weekend is the worst in GAA history. The worst vote was the 90% rejection of the CPA motion for more voting transparency.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Armagh18 on October 26, 2021, 03:51:17 AM
People saying that the vote at the weekend is the worst in GAA history. The worst vote was the 90% rejection of the CPA motion for more voting transparency.
How do you even justify that? Disgrace
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Saffsof82 on October 26, 2021, 09:37:41 AM
Everyone agrees reform is needed, there is just too much of a gulf between the elite and the also rans. But the horse has really bolted on that and Dublin, Kerry, Mayo and Tyrone are miles ahead both on an off the pitch. I cant understand why, with the think tanks that the GAA instigates at HQ, a better motion than plan B couldnt have been put together.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 26, 2021, 11:00:31 AM
People saying that the vote at the weekend is the worst in GAA history. The worst vote was the 90% rejection of the CPA motion for more voting transparency.
How do you even justify that? Disgrace

He does have a point.  There’s no point clubs/players/members being asked about motions, or taking a vote, if county delegates vote the opposite  way at Congress.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Armagh18 on October 26, 2021, 11:37:33 AM
People saying that the vote at the weekend is the worst in GAA history. The worst vote was the 90% rejection of the CPA motion for more voting transparency.
How do you even justify that? Disgrace

He does have a point.  There’s no point clubs/players/members being asked about motions, or taking a vote, if county delegates vote the opposite  way at Congress.
I mean how can the delegates justify voting against transparent voting? Thats a disgrace. 
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2021, 12:01:24 PM
Because they can do what they like and sod the County Boards, Clubs, members, etc etc .
They want to keep it that way.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Duine Inteacht Eile on October 26, 2021, 12:19:17 PM
Because they can do what they like and sod the County Boards, Clubs, members, etc etc .
They want to keep it that way.
If the County Boards, Clubs and Members really cared that much about it would they not hold their delegates to account for it? Or just gas them altogether? At 90%, you could just get rid of them all.

I reckon that they just don’t care that much.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Louther on October 26, 2021, 12:22:31 PM
Disappointing but not surprised at weekends events. When you have people who devised the plans speaking against them, you know what you up against.

And as for some of the amendments doing the rounds, shocking.

Starting point seems to be to get as many teams as possible to the knockout rounds especially the top teams. Hybrid competitions where finish in one competition will effect the positions of another competition - this dilutes the competition in question further e.g Tyrone, Dublin, Kerry and Mayo win their provincial and are guaranteed knock out spots. The Div 1 league then becomes farcical as the sole aim of these teams will be avoid been in bottom 2 and peak at later stages to be ready for championship.

Having a 1A and 1B, we are just not affect them balance again and having teams of mixed level playing against each other.

Buzzword at weekend was we all want change but only change that suits ourselves.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2021, 12:55:36 PM
Because they can do what they like and sod the County Boards, Clubs, members, etc etc .
They want to keep it that way.
If the County Boards, Clubs and Members really cared that much about it would they not hold their delegates to account for it? Or just gas them altogether? At 90%, you could just get rid of them all.

I reckon that they just don’t care that much.
But problem is nobody knows how they voted !
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: BennyCake on October 26, 2021, 12:58:06 PM
People saying that the vote at the weekend is the worst in GAA history. The worst vote was the 90% rejection of the CPA motion for more voting transparency.
How do you even justify that? Disgrace

He does have a point.  There’s no point clubs/players/members being asked about motions, or taking a vote, if county delegates vote the opposite  way at Congress.
I mean how can the delegates justify voting against transparent voting? Thats a disgrace.

Oh... right, yes. I knew that  ;)
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Duine Inteacht Eile on October 26, 2021, 01:02:29 PM
Because they can do what they like and sod the County Boards, Clubs, members, etc etc .
They want to keep it that way.
If the County Boards, Clubs and Members really cared that much about it would they not hold their delegates to account for it? Or just gas them altogether? At 90%, you could just get rid of them all.

I reckon that they just don’t care that much.
But problem is nobody knows how they voted !
As I say, if it is 90% of them, I’d treat it as 100%. You might lose 10% decent ones but worth it to weed out 90% arseholes.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: johnnycool on October 27, 2021, 09:48:11 AM
Where do you find out who can vote at congress?

I have seen graphics of the various counties and the likes but ex presidents and Central Council seem to have quite a bit of sway, but can't put a figure on it.
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: Rossfan on October 27, 2021, 11:36:30 AM
I think the CC had 52 votes in the recent Congress.
There's 1 delegate from each County in Ireland and possibly from each GAA County in Britain.
1 GPA rep, 4 Provincial Council reps, Uachtarán too I presume.
Schools, 3rd level.....
Title: Re: Congress
Post by: johnnycool on October 27, 2021, 03:08:47 PM
I think the CC had 52 votes in the recent Congress.
There's 1 delegate from each County in Ireland and possibly from each GAA County in Britain.
1 GPA rep, 4 Provincial Council reps, Uachtarán too I presume.
Schools, 3rd level.....

down had three votes IIRC, other larger counties like Cork or Dublin get five so on and so forth.

Not sure why the central council need so many.