Official Cavan GAA Thread

[Hollow Man]

as regards options please don't anybody mention Paidi, he's the current man minus the brains, plus the All Ireland medals and on a par on the "other" stuff

Unlike the current man, who has never managed even a club team, Paidi has done the business with Kerry, and even more impressively, with Westmeath, whose famine was even worse than ours (ie they'd never won ANYTHING). He was a disaster for Clare though.

Trying to work out Keogan's managerial record in the championship (minor and senior). As far as I know, with the minors they lost in the first round to Down in his first year and then beat Antrim and lost a replay to Down the second year.

With the seniors, they lost a replay to Down, then lost to Mayo in the first year, then beat Antrim and lost to Armagh this year.

With the Under 21s we've lost the first round to years in a row.

So excluding the worst team in the province and one of the worst in Ireland, Antrim, Keogan's championship record as a manager reads:

PLAYED 9
WON    0
LOST    7
DREW   2

Pathetic.

[CavanCola]

as regards options please don't anybody mention Paidi, he's the current man minus the brains, plus the All Ireland medals and on a par on the "other" stuff

Unlike the current man, who has never managed even a club team, Paidi has done the business with Kerry, and even more impressively, with Westmeath, whose famine was even worse than ours (ie they'd never won ANYTHING). He was a disaster for Clare though.

Trying to work out Keogan's managerial record in the championship (minor and senior). As far as I know, with the minors they lost in the first round to Down in his first year and then beat Antrim and lost a replay to Down the second year.

With the seniors, they lost a replay to Down, then lost to Mayo in the first year, then beat Antrim and lost to Armagh this year.

With the Under 21s we've lost the first round to years in a row.

So excluding the worst team in the province and one of the worst in Ireland, Antrim, Keogan's championship record as a manager reads:

PLAYED 9
WON    0
LOST    7
DREW   2

Pathetic.

Paidi was blessed and in the right place at the right time for westmeath. Luke Dempsey deserved and should have been the man who got Westmeath to the Leinster title. Instead Paidi like some type of Cuckoo swooped into the nest. Damien O'Reilly should have finished him off in 1997 when he charged onto the field.

[Hollow Man]

Paidi was blessed and in the right place at the right time for westmeath. Luke Dempsey deserved and should have been the man who got Westmeath to the Leinster title.

You're right. Ger Loughnane was also in the right place at the right time when he led Clare from the wilderness in 95, sure Len Gaynor "deserved" that one.

Remember when Joe Kernan won an All Ireland in his first year with Armagh? Brian Canavan and Brian McAlinden "should have been" the men to lead Armagh to that.

There's no such thing as being lucky in that instance, when a team is winning a title for the first time or coming off a long famine. The manager always plays a much more important role in those sort of wins, because those type of victories require players to be dragged across a psychological barrier, and it takes a charismatic motivator who is a real leader to do so - in short, an excellent manager.

Think of:

Martin McHugh - ended the 28 year famine with us
Micko in Kildare - 42 year famine
Micko in Laois - something similar
Liam Griffin - 30 years

Justin McCarthy in Waterford - they hadn't won a Munster since late 50's and hadn't even competed well in decades. Gerald McCarthy takes over and they draw a Munster final (98) but, crucially, don't cross that line. In Justin McCarthy's first year, they are Munster champions, and they've done it twice since.

Nobody calls Justin "blessed" or says Gerald McCarthy "deserved to win it".

Remember, Paidi also won two senior All Irelands and an Under 21 and a NFL with Kerry. Hardly should be compared with Keogan.

[Mr. Pain]

You go girl!

[cavanmaniac]

Páidí certainly has something alright but his commitment to any job outside of Kerry is questionable.

He took the Westmeath job very soon after being snubbed for another term in Kerry, which smacked of wanting to stick it to the powers that be at home more than any great desire to lead Westmeath per se. He did however work the oracle with the Lake county but it is true to say (as I recall) that he had a very seasoned team to work with and was basically providing the elusive last 5% to get an experienced team over the line. It's like when you're stuck on the last clue in a crossword for hours and then someone saunters over, takes one look and solves it in an instant. There didn't seem to be any real donkey work to be done as such and I think he showed his true colours when he more or less went through the motions the year after despite seeming to have a good platform to build on.

He was rumoured to be sniffing for the Kerry job again before Pat O'Shea got it and then promptly hopped into bed with Clare, again a move that looked rash and impetuous.

So my opinion is that Hollowman is right about Páidí's specific 'mojo' and special abilities when he's switched on but I wouldn't have him round the place where a real job requiring commitment and long term hard work is required, such as is the case in Cavan.

[anglocelt39]

Howya Hollow Man, can I take it that your last post is a statement of opinion rather than supposed fact? Some good points in there but plenty to take issue with. First things first we need somebody in who is going to help effect an absolutely major change in attitude and approach, too many of your examples already had the foundations in place and had the luxury of being able to concentrate on delivering the missing 5%:

Westmeath and Laois-number of years of success at underage level and a consequent conveyor belt of talent coming through in a province that was waiting for teams to make the breakthrough. There was great jubilation when the made the break but not total surprise as I recall.

McHugh was our best, most successful and luckiest coach in the last 20 or so years. Two Cavan teams have contested football All Irelands in the last 56 years and he playeres from both of them available to him. Club scene wasn't half bad either if you cast your mind back to Gowna and Bailieborough's Ulster Club exploits. He certainly helped deliver the missing 5%. The new man in, if there is to be one, will have an awful lot tougher time on his hands, club scene poor and absolutely no success at underage level of several years, plus what looks like numerous disillusioned players at the way they have been pissed around over the past number of years, some but not all by the current management setup either.

Exploits of Wexford hurling of absolutely no relevance to our situation since winning an All Ireland out of Leinster in the mid-90's about the equivalent of winning a Connacht football championship, bang the door often enough and eventually it might open.

My comments on Paidi were partly tongue in cheek and bear out the fact that not all social animals in this country have to live within 5 miles of the Imperial, anyway Maniac has dealt with that matter pretty well.

Otherwise, would agree with  most of what you say

[Hollow Man]

That "last 5%" is harder to get than the first "95%" in my opinion. To make that final breakthrough, to cross the line - that's the sign of a great manager.

I think the Wexford analogy is relevant. Your point about winning an All Ireland out of Leinster in the id 90s is invalid. '96 was when Clare were at their peak and Limerick were still brilliant (Limerick threw away the 94 All Ireland). So Wexford had to first get out of Leinster (no mean feat with that amazing Offaly team, and Kilkenny there, plus 30 years of failure on their shoulders), and then beat Galway.

Meanwhile, Limerick got a handy semi against Antrim. Wexford had a tough route, beating teams that had contested the previous two All Ireland finals. Having won nothing for 30 years, losing countless provincial and league finals in the process, I doubt it was an inevitability that they would win an All Ireland.

Surely if it was Cavan would have won more than one Ulster SFC in 40 odd years, "bang the door often often" and so on...

I'm not saying for a second that we should get Paidi, in his current incarnation, in as manager. We saw from his tenure in Clare that he probably has lost the hunger at this stage, but there's still no denying that he was a great manager.

And if we are being pedantic here, you will find that McHugh was in his second year in the job when the 96 team reached the All Ireland final. Was it "luck" on his part to happen upon such a fine bunch, or was he the reason, or a good part of it, that they reached our second national final in 50 odd years?

PS: Keogan has the Cavan job as long as he wants it in my opinion, sad as it sounds. Having bought his way in (rumour has it), he will stay as long as he feels like it.

[anglocelt39]

PS: Keogan has the Cavan job as long as he wants it in my opinion, sad as it sounds. Having bought his way in (rumour has it), he will stay as long as he feels like it.


Jesus

[Celt_Man]

PS: Keogan has the Cavan job as long as he wants it in my opinion, sad as it sounds. Having bought his way in (rumour has it), he will stay as long as he feels like it.


Jesus

Unfortunately that's not the first time I've heard that either...

[mylestheslasher]

One other thing I forgot to mention. I believe Fannin fell out of favour with Keoghan in a big way cos he played a club match for Drumgoon when instructed not to. Heard this from a lad from cootehill at the match. This happened after he had been left on the bench for the whole league. Maybe Mr Keoghan doesn't want some of his players to play for anyone!

[cavanmaniac]

Ah Jasus. I'd heard that Keogan himself stated he'd be gone as soon as we were finished in championship. I do have a nagging fear that when the time comes he'll find reasons to reappoint himself. The craven county board being in thrall to his wallet doesn't surprise me in the least, but I had hoped that even Keogan would have the presence of mind to walk away.

Hope the rumours are wrong is all I can say.

[CavanCola]

That "last 5%" is harder to get than the first "95%" in my opinion. To make that final breakthrough, to cross the line - that's the sign of a great manager.

I think the Wexford analogy is relevant. Your point about winning an All Ireland out of Leinster in the id 90s is invalid. '96 was when Clare were at their peak and Limerick were still brilliant (Limerick threw away the 94 All Ireland). So Wexford had to first get out of Leinster (no mean feat with that amazing Offaly team, and Kilkenny there, plus 30 years of failure on their shoulders), and then beat Galway.

Meanwhile, Limerick got a handy semi against Antrim. Wexford had a tough route, beating teams that had contested the previous two All Ireland finals. Having won nothing for 30 years, losing countless provincial and league finals in the process, I doubt it was an inevitability that they would win an All Ireland.

Surely if it was Cavan would have won more than one Ulster SFC in 40 odd years, "bang the door often often" and so on...

I'm not saying for a second that we should get Paidi, in his current incarnation, in as manager. We saw from his tenure in Clare that he probably has lost the hunger at this stage, but there's still no denying that he was a great manager.

And if we are being pedantic here, you will find that McHugh was in his second year in the job when the 96 team reached the All Ireland final. Was it "luck" on his part to happen upon such a fine bunch, or was he the reason, or a good part of it, that they reached our second national final in 50 odd years?

PS: Keogan has the Cavan job as long as he wants it in my opinion, sad as it sounds. Having bought his way in (rumour has it), he will stay as long as he feels like it.

I'm not convinced that Paidi had lost anything when he got to Clare - he brought along his 5% of "Mojo" but that alone is not what a manager should bring.

In Westmeath it was his side kick Tomas O'Fleaharta that done all the hard graft and Luke Dempsey in previous years before him. Westmeath had some fantastic minor teams from about 1992 onwards. They were unlucky not to pick up more than one minor allireland back then bar their 1995 one. Good Meath teams robbed them on a few occasions after replays in the leinster minor champioship from 1992 onwards. So the foundations were definitely there to start with. Paidi is the high profile media star so he got all the accolades.

Mchugh brought the 5% Mojo to cavan but he also done his fair share of the 95% donkey work. I think Mchugh could have probably seen the potential that was there in Cavan at the time before he took the job.  In 92 when he won his allireland medal wasn't it Cavan that came closed to beating Donegal that year in Breffnie Park? I have always thought that the Cavan team around that time (90-94) would have benifited alot from a back door competition as ulster was so strong at the time.

[Hollow Man]

I hear what you're saying about Paidi, but I don't agree.

Examine his achievements in the game.

This is a man who won I think eight All Ireland medals and conceded somehting like three points to his direct opponent in All Ireland finals. He then managed Kerry to two All Ireland senior titles (ending an 11 year 'famine' for them, and beating the shite out of Cavan en route), an Under 21 (beating Cavan) and an NFL.

He then went on to Westmeath and won their first ever Leinster title.

In short, the man is an out and out winner.

Whether Westmeath had a couple of decent minor teams (incidentally, that 95 minor team, bar one or two players, disappeared without trace) or not, it still took a great manager to knit everything together - to get the right backroom team (so O Fatharta put in a lot of work? That's what Paidi picked him for), to get the players motivated and to instill the confidence to drag them across that elusive finishing line.

For all their talent, this was a bunch of players who were as menatlly fragile as you'd ever see. As someone pointed out, they lost a lot of close decisions at minor level and if anyone can remember all the times they let Meath off the hook at senior level around 2000 to 2003....

And as for the earlier point about Luke Dempsey - with all due respect to the man, he hasn't exactly turned Longford, who have a similar profile (long famine, successful college side, superb minor team a couple of years ago), into world beaters, so I doubt he'd have done it with Westmeath.

[CavanCola]

See your point Hollow Man.
I think its the whole Media profile of the man that drives me nuts.

Some teams are easier to manage than others .When I look at other sports I think of the American basketball team of 1992. The infamous dream team. As management goes there wasn't really much to do here - it was just a matter of telling the lads to go out and do their best. I'd liken this to some of Paidi's sucess espeically his allIreland wins with Kerry. Its not every GAA team in the country that had at the time the likes of the talent of Maurice Fitz, MF Russell , Seamus Moynihan etc to draw on. I probably could have managed the 1997 Kerry team fairly well from my PC here.

[Denn Forever]

One other thing I forgot to mention. I believe Fannin fell out of favour with Keoghan in a big way cos he played a club match for Drumgoon when instructed not to. Heard this from a lad from cootehill at the match. This happened after he had been left on the bench for the whole league. Maybe Mr Keoghan doesn't want some of his players to play for anyone!

And your point is?

Hasn,t always been the case that once you are on the panel (team and SUBS), you do what the managers asks you.  If you can't do that, either resign from the panel or go for the manager's job.