Brexit.

[LCohen]

Corbyn has his own agenda in relation to leaving EU regulations so that he can nationalise things and suchlike.
Labour's contribution should have been to propose a moderate Brexit, respecting the referendum but moving forward in a deliberate manner.

A moderate Brexit? Like not having Mays 5 red lines?? Is that not what he tried to do?

[trailer]

It's absolutely mind boggling that otherwise sensible people still persist with blaming Corbyn on this issue. Jo Swinson, who facilitated Cameron's government, is clearly more to blame but she's the darling of the remainers for some bizarre reason.

There's also another inconvenient fact that people tend to forget. The British people voted to leave the EU. People ranting and raving about "we didn't understand the consequences" or "we were lied to" like it was the first time the full truth wasn't spelled out in ABC terms to the public? Grow up for heavens sake. I don't want Britain to leave the EU, certainly not on a no-deal basis, but you can't blame Jeremy Corbyn for respecting the result of the referendum. Madness.

And another thing - I would have thought people from here would be well attuned to smear campaigns from the British establishment. Anyone who genuinely believe Corbyn is anti-semitic or tolerates anti-semitism is simply a fool. This is a man who has fought injustice all his life and has always come out on the right side of history. Even back when he was derided for supporting that "terrorist" Mandela, when he had to balls to try and work for peace in NI, the list goes on. The picture painted of him and sadly swallowed by many is a pathetic caricature. The Tories and their Blairite friends have underestimated him time and again. I believe they've done so again and will pay a heavy price this time.

Fair enough. But the biggest issue of the last 3 years has been Brexit and he's been all over the place on it. From wanting to leave to now wanting to Remain. Hardly what you'd expect from the leader of the opposition and someone who wants to be PM.

2 key points that need to be factored into that line of thought

Firstly any large broad based party is not united on this issue. If forced Labour into say an outright remain position the party splits. A split isn't measured in the number of MPs that go to one side or the other. It's the split in every constituency that kills the party. The same applies to an outright support for a specific leave position and Labour were never going to be the party of no deal. A second referendum appears at first glance to offer a way out but that is illusionary. Second vote proponents have themselves frequently said it was "too early" to push for one in parliament. Indicating that it is not straight forward. Added to that if a second referendum is to be decisive it needs to be binary and specific. The first vote was binary but not specific and look at the mess. If it's to be binary then you need to get rid of one of the three option (deal, no deal, remain). Which one are you going to get rid off? If Deal stays then what deal? If Deal goes then it's Russian roulette with Remain vs No Deal. f**k!!!!!

Second point is that whatever you say about Brexit it has at the very least from the moment of the referendum result been complicated. Offers of simple solutions are quickly exposed. Populists telling people what they want to hear offers no way forward. Populists telling different groups differing simplistic tropes at the same time is why we are here and where our ire should be directed. Corbyn is not and has not been the problem

Few quick points.
He is the leader of the party. It is part of his remit to unite them. To Lead them. If he cannot unite his own party then how can he reasonably expect to win a general election? This is an example of how weak he is. He is un-electable.
Part of the reason there was such a high leave vote was down to his own wishy-washy language and half-hearted campaigning.
Teresa May was probably the worst PM in this last 100 years. He constantly got beaten at the dispatch box by her.  It was her own party that killed her off and not him. This is telling. She didn't even have a majority in the HOC and he still couldn't oust the Tories.


Brexit has defined this last 5 years.

[mouview]

It's absolutely mind boggling that otherwise sensible people still persist with blaming Corbyn on this issue. Jo Swinson, who facilitated Cameron's government, is clearly more to blame but she's the darling of the remainers for some bizarre reason.

There's also another inconvenient fact that people tend to forget. The British people voted to leave the EU. People ranting and raving about "we didn't understand the consequences" or "we were lied to" like it was the first time the full truth wasn't spelled out in ABC terms to the public? Grow up for heavens sake. I don't want Britain to leave the EU, certainly not on a no-deal basis, but you can't blame Jeremy Corbyn for respecting the result of the referendum. Madness.

And another thing - I would have thought people from here would be well attuned to smear campaigns from the British establishment. Anyone who genuinely believe Corbyn is anti-semitic or tolerates anti-semitism is simply a fool. This is a man who has fought injustice all his life and has always come out on the right side of history. Even back when he was derided for supporting that "terrorist" Mandela, when he had to balls to try and work for peace in NI, the list goes on. The picture painted of him and sadly swallowed by many is a pathetic caricature. The Tories and their Blairite friends have underestimated him time and again. I believe they've done so again and will pay a heavy price this time.

Fair enough. But the biggest issue of the last 3 years has been Brexit and he's been all over the place on it. From wanting to leave to now wanting to Remain. Hardly what you'd expect from the leader of the opposition and someone who wants to be PM.

2 key points that need to be factored into that line of thought

Firstly any large broad based party is not united on this issue. If forced Labour into say an outright remain position the party splits. A split isn't measured in the number of MPs that go to one side or the other. It's the split in every constituency that kills the party. The same applies to an outright support for a specific leave position and Labour were never going to be the party of no deal. A second referendum appears at first glance to offer a way out but that is illusionary. Second vote proponents have themselves frequently said it was "too early" to push for one in parliament. Indicating that it is not straight forward. Added to that if a second referendum is to be decisive it needs to be binary and specific. The first vote was binary but not specific and look at the mess. If it's to be binary then you need to get rid of one of the three option (deal, no deal, remain). Which one are you going to get rid off? If Deal stays then what deal? If Deal goes then it's Russian roulette with Remain vs No Deal. f**k!!!!!

Second point is that whatever you say about Brexit it has at the very least from the moment of the referendum result been complicated. Offers of simple solutions are quickly exposed. Populists telling people what they want to hear offers no way forward. Populists telling different groups differing simplistic tropes at the same time is why we are here and where our ire should be directed. Corbyn is not and has not been the problem

Few quick points.
He is the leader of the party. It is part of his remit to unite them. To Lead them. If he cannot unite his own party then how can he reasonably expect to win a general election? This is an example of how weak he is. He is un-electable.
Part of the reason there was such a high leave vote was down to his own wishy-washy language and half-hearted campaigning.
Teresa May was probably the worst PM in this last 100 years. He constantly got beaten at the dispatch box by her.  It was her own party that killed her off and not him. This is telling. She didn't even have a majority in the HOC and he still couldn't oust the Tories.


Brexit has defined this last 5 years.

It wasn't Corbyn alone that couldn't unite his party, look at the Tory defections this year. Brexit has now divided *England* along Remain/Leave lines rather than party political lines.

[LCohen]

It's absolutely mind boggling that otherwise sensible people still persist with blaming Corbyn on this issue. Jo Swinson, who facilitated Cameron's government, is clearly more to blame but she's the darling of the remainers for some bizarre reason.

There's also another inconvenient fact that people tend to forget. The British people voted to leave the EU. People ranting and raving about "we didn't understand the consequences" or "we were lied to" like it was the first time the full truth wasn't spelled out in ABC terms to the public? Grow up for heavens sake. I don't want Britain to leave the EU, certainly not on a no-deal basis, but you can't blame Jeremy Corbyn for respecting the result of the referendum. Madness.

And another thing - I would have thought people from here would be well attuned to smear campaigns from the British establishment. Anyone who genuinely believe Corbyn is anti-semitic or tolerates anti-semitism is simply a fool. This is a man who has fought injustice all his life and has always come out on the right side of history. Even back when he was derided for supporting that "terrorist" Mandela, when he had to balls to try and work for peace in NI, the list goes on. The picture painted of him and sadly swallowed by many is a pathetic caricature. The Tories and their Blairite friends have underestimated him time and again. I believe they've done so again and will pay a heavy price this time.

Fair enough. But the biggest issue of the last 3 years has been Brexit and he's been all over the place on it. From wanting to leave to now wanting to Remain. Hardly what you'd expect from the leader of the opposition and someone who wants to be PM.

2 key points that need to be factored into that line of thought

Firstly any large broad based party is not united on this issue. If forced Labour into say an outright remain position the party splits. A split isn't measured in the number of MPs that go to one side or the other. It's the split in every constituency that kills the party. The same applies to an outright support for a specific leave position and Labour were never going to be the party of no deal. A second referendum appears at first glance to offer a way out but that is illusionary. Second vote proponents have themselves frequently said it was "too early" to push for one in parliament. Indicating that it is not straight forward. Added to that if a second referendum is to be decisive it needs to be binary and specific. The first vote was binary but not specific and look at the mess. If it's to be binary then you need to get rid of one of the three option (deal, no deal, remain). Which one are you going to get rid off? If Deal stays then what deal? If Deal goes then it's Russian roulette with Remain vs No Deal. f**k!!!!!

Second point is that whatever you say about Brexit it has at the very least from the moment of the referendum result been complicated. Offers of simple solutions are quickly exposed. Populists telling people what they want to hear offers no way forward. Populists telling different groups differing simplistic tropes at the same time is why we are here and where our ire should be directed. Corbyn is not and has not been the problem

Few quick points.
He is the leader of the party. It is part of his remit to unite them. To Lead them. If he cannot unite his own party then how can he reasonably expect to win a general election? This is an example of how weak he is. He is un-electable.
Part of the reason there was such a high leave vote was down to his own wishy-washy language and half-hearted campaigning.
Teresa May was probably the worst PM in this last 100 years. He constantly got beaten at the dispatch box by her.  It was her own party that killed her off and not him. This is telling. She didn't even have a majority in the HOC and he still couldn't oust the Tories.


Brexit has defined this last 5 years.

John Mann, Caroline Flint and Phil Wilson hold very different views on Brexit. How would you or anyone unite them?

Flint 'a position is a product of the referendum (personally votes remain but strongly in favour of leave now because of her constituents). Mann and Wilson ( who each represent factions) have held their views since before the referendum and from before Corbyn was party leader. In what way is then responsible for the division and how can he bring them together? If it's all about him what successful actions would an alternative leader have taken?

Corbin was wishy washy in the campaign. I get that. But look at some of the strong statements made on Brexit. Where have they got us. Not being bullied into telling lies or things he doesn't believe is Corbyn strongest suit. I say that as a passionate remainer.

Tories didn't have a majority. But they did have a pact that was never going to bring the Tories down.

If the Scottish court case fails by middle of next week you might get a vote of no confidence by close Friday. Not before

[LCohen]

SF didn't campaign for a remain vote. Now they won't help to stop no deal. It's as if they want Brexit. Oh yeah, that's right, they actually sit with the communists in the EU and actively campaigned for a NO VOTE IN EVERY SINGLE EU REFERENDUM.

But yeah, I'm an arsehole and SF are out to actually help the people.

BTW SF didn't offer a pack on FST or SB.

Of course they do. SF think that Brexit will drive enough moderate unionists into the arms of nationalism to trigger a border poll, and they can smell a united Ireland within the next ten years.

Reasons why I don't like that strategy:

• A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now and Irish reunification
• The north needs to make more progress on desegregation, but so far I'm not seeing any significant effort on SF's part to resolve the parades issue or desegregate the education system
• If a border poll were to happen now the loyalists would go ballistic and there'd be another Ulster Covenant, probably with guns smuggled in from Russia this time instead of Germany
• Possible civil war (or at least threats thereof) and demands for a repartitioned prod homeland in Antrim and Down.

SF are playing a dangerous game. Big constitutional shocks and redrawing of borders are not to be taken lightly. Brexit has unleashed dark forces that nobody could predict or handle. A border poll at this point would unleash even more.

I am beginning to realise that Sinn Fein need to stop trying to own a United Ireland. Let people work it out for themselves that it is the better option and keep Martina and her confrontational rhetoric quiet.

I used to Vote Sinn Fein, until this year!

The Irish Government needs to own what a United Ireland looks like.

Varadkar was right to say that a united Ireland would not just be the north morphed into the existing Dail setup and there'll need to be regionalised legislatures in place.

Have the Irish people mandated a government to "own" what a UI would look like?

[johnnycool]

SF didn't campaign for a remain vote. Now they won't help to stop no deal. It's as if they want Brexit. Oh yeah, that's right, they actually sit with the communists in the EU and actively campaigned for a NO VOTE IN EVERY SINGLE EU REFERENDUM.

But yeah, I'm an arsehole and SF are out to actually help the people.

BTW SF didn't offer a pack on FST or SB.

Of course they do. SF think that Brexit will drive enough moderate unionists into the arms of nationalism to trigger a border poll, and they can smell a united Ireland within the next ten years.

Reasons why I don't like that strategy:

• A border poll is far down the list of things that need to happen between now and Irish reunification
• The north needs to make more progress on desegregation, but so far I'm not seeing any significant effort on SF's part to resolve the parades issue or desegregate the education system
• If a border poll were to happen now the loyalists would go ballistic and there'd be another Ulster Covenant, probably with guns smuggled in from Russia this time instead of Germany
• Possible civil war (or at least threats thereof) and demands for a repartitioned prod homeland in Antrim and Down.

SF are playing a dangerous game. Big constitutional shocks and redrawing of borders are not to be taken lightly. Brexit has unleashed dark forces that nobody could predict or handle. A border poll at this point would unleash even more.

I am beginning to realise that Sinn Fein need to stop trying to own a United Ireland. Let people work it out for themselves that it is the better option and keep Martina and her confrontational rhetoric quiet.

I used to Vote Sinn Fein, until this year!

The Irish Government needs to own what a United Ireland looks like.

Varadkar was right to say that a united Ireland would not just be the north morphed into the existing Dail setup and there'll need to be regionalised legislatures in place.

Have the Irish people mandated a government to "own" what a UI would look like?

Do they need to?

[armaghniac]

Corbyn has his own agenda in relation to leaving EU regulations so that he can nationalise things and suchlike.
Labour's contribution should have been to propose a moderate Brexit, respecting the referendum but moving forward in a deliberate manner.

A moderate Brexit? Like not having Mays 5 red lines?? Is that not what he tried to do?

Yes, up to a point. But a really clear Labour model of Brexit has not come into public view. He probably could have sold Norway as a model, as a solidly social democratic place which only adheres to about one third of EU regulations.

Have the Irish people mandated a government to "own" what a UI would look like?

The Irish government have concentrated on trying to stabilise NI close to its present position. That allows a UI become a medium term project.
If the British carry on the way they are going then we are in uncharted waters.

[LCohen]

Corbyn has his own agenda in relation to leaving EU regulations so that he can nationalise things and suchlike.
Labour's contribution should have been to propose a moderate Brexit, respecting the referendum but moving forward in a deliberate manner.

A moderate Brexit? Like not having Mays 5 red lines?? Is that not what he tried to do?

Yes, up to a point. But a really clear Labour model of Brexit has not come into public view. He probably could have sold Norway as a model, as a solidly social democratic place which only adheres to about one third of EU regulations.

Have the Irish people mandated a government to "own" what a UI would look like?

The Irish government have concentrated on trying to stabilise NI close to its present position. That allows a UI become a medium term project.
If the British carry on the way they are going then we are in uncharted waters.

On Norway/Brexit only a small fraction of remainers (across all parties) have given up on Remain and rolled in behind Norway+.

If Corbyn had tried to whip or cajole that there would have been outright insurrection in the Labour Party. It's delusional on your part to even pretend this was a go to option. Especially as Labour cannot negotiate with EU

On NI I have no issue with their attitude to NI. Irish civil servants and ministers always seem to have a sound grasp of their role and responsibilities under GFA. Sadly same cannot always be said of some UK ministers

But I just don't get the idea that the RoI government should plan for a UI. Obviously if they campaigned for and won office on that basis then things would be different

[armaghniac]

On Norway/Brexit only a small fraction of remainers (across all parties) have given up on Remain and rolled in behind Norway+.

In part because Labour never really pushed this either.

If Corbyn had tried to whip or cajole that there would have been outright insurrection in the Labour Party. It's delusional on your part to even pretend this was a go to option. Especially as Labour cannot negotiate with EU

Norway and a confirmation referendum would have brought a lot on board.

But I just don't get the idea that the RoI government should plan for a UI. Obviously if they campaigned for and won office on that basis then things would be different

They are nationalist parties, they need to have a general strategy for this.

[trailer]

Corbyn has his own agenda in relation to leaving EU regulations so that he can nationalise things and suchlike.
Labour's contribution should have been to propose a moderate Brexit, respecting the referendum but moving forward in a deliberate manner.

A moderate Brexit? Like not having Mays 5 red lines?? Is that not what he tried to do?

Yes, up to a point. But a really clear Labour model of Brexit has not come into public view. He probably could have sold Norway as a model, as a solidly social democratic place which only adheres to about one third of EU regulations.

Have the Irish people mandated a government to "own" what a UI would look like?

The Irish government have concentrated on trying to stabilise NI close to its present position. That allows a UI become a medium term project.
If the British carry on the way they are going then we are in uncharted waters.

On Norway/Brexit only a small fraction of remainers (across all parties) have given up on Remain and rolled in behind Norway+.

If Corbyn had tried to whip or cajole that there would have been outright insurrection in the Labour Party. It's delusional on your part to even pretend this was a go to option. Especially as Labour cannot negotiate with EU

On NI I have no issue with their attitude to NI. Irish civil servants and ministers always seem to have a sound grasp of their role and responsibilities under GFA. Sadly same cannot always be said of some UK ministers

But I just don't get the idea that the RoI government should plan for a UI. Obviously if they campaigned for and won office on that basis then things would be different

It should be an objective / aspiration / call it whatever you like, of every single Government of the ROI to unite Ireland. Therefore they should always have some plan.
I find it incredible that after everything we've suffered North and South recently and in the past that any Government of Ireland would not want to unite Ireland.
I've said it before but there appears to be only a thin vernier of Irishness painted over many in the 26. A reconciled, prosperous and welcoming Ireland should be the goal of every Irish man, woman and child.

[balladmaker]

It's absolutely mind boggling that otherwise sensible people still persist with blaming Corbyn on this issue. Jo Swinson, who facilitated Cameron's government, is clearly more to blame but she's the darling of the remainers for some bizarre reason.

There's also another inconvenient fact that people tend to forget. The British people voted to leave the EU. People ranting and raving about "we didn't understand the consequences" or "we were lied to" like it was the first time the full truth wasn't spelled out in ABC terms to the public? Grow up for heavens sake. I don't want Britain to leave the EU, certainly not on a no-deal basis, but you can't blame Jeremy Corbyn for respecting the result of the referendum. Madness.

And another thing - I would have thought people from here would be well attuned to smear campaigns from the British establishment. Anyone who genuinely believe Corbyn is anti-semitic or tolerates anti-semitism is simply a fool. This is a man who has fought injustice all his life and has always come out on the right side of history. Even back when he was derided for supporting that "terrorist" Mandela, when he had to balls to try and work for peace in NI, the list goes on. The picture painted of him and sadly swallowed by many is a pathetic caricature. The Tories and their Blairite friends have underestimated him time and again. I believe they've done so again and will pay a heavy price this time.

+1.

I find it shocking how anyone, including some on this board, actually believe the propaganda and Tory press character assassination of Corbyn.  It was perfectly timed to prevent him being the PM in waiting, and the anti-semite accusation was nothing more than BS.  Read up on the man's stance over many years, just because he campaigns for Palestinian rights, as well as the the rights of any downtrodden across the globe, does not make him anti-semetic.  The usual Israeli propaganda being adopted by the Tory's now.

[balladmaker]

Corbyn has his own agenda in relation to leaving EU regulations so that he can nationalise things and suchlike.
Labour's contribution should have been to propose a moderate Brexit, respecting the referendum but moving forward in a deliberate manner.

A moderate Brexit? Like not having Mays 5 red lines?? Is that not what he tried to do?

Yes, up to a point. But a really clear Labour model of Brexit has not come into public view. He probably could have sold Norway as a model, as a solidly social democratic place which only adheres to about one third of EU regulations.

Have the Irish people mandated a government to "own" what a UI would look like?

The Irish government have concentrated on trying to stabilise NI close to its present position. That allows a UI become a medium term project.
If the British carry on the way they are going then we are in uncharted waters.

On Norway/Brexit only a small fraction of remainers (across all parties) have given up on Remain and rolled in behind Norway+.

If Corbyn had tried to whip or cajole that there would have been outright insurrection in the Labour Party. It's delusional on your part to even pretend this was a go to option. Especially as Labour cannot negotiate with EU

On NI I have no issue with their attitude to NI. Irish civil servants and ministers always seem to have a sound grasp of their role and responsibilities under GFA. Sadly same cannot always be said of some UK ministers

But I just don't get the idea that the RoI government should plan for a UI. Obviously if they campaigned for and won office on that basis then things would be different

I think it is incumbent on every Irish government to promote and plan for reunification of the island.  To not do so would be a betrayal of the founding fathers of the state as it currently stands ... imo of course.

[Rossfan]

So we're not trailers version of "Irish" now?

Anyway Bozo and DUPUDA are doing just fine on advancing the All Ireland State.

[trailer]

So we're not trailers version of "Irish" now?

Anyway Bozo and DUPUDA are doing just fine on advancing the All Ireland State.

If one of your core beliefs is not to unite Ireland, then I don't see how you could call yourself an Irish man or woman.

Otherwise, what does it mean to be Irish? Is it I'm alright jack. Happy with my lot here in the 26.
I'm only holding up the mirror, you're the one looking at the reflection.

[five points]

If only Sinn Fein would get up and help the people. They'll be guilty if a No-Deal happens.

It would make no difference. Seeing the Shinners enter Westminster would motivate a dozen or two Labour MPs to vote the other way if only to spite them.