Brexit.

[LeoMc]

If there is to be a border down the Irish Sea then it would be the doing of the Brits and not the EU.

Is that not the reason Barnier didn't include it in the draft legal document?

Arlene in her pig ignorance will reject the golden goose again.
Unionist business people should be in her ear.

According to Newton Emerson Barnier made no mention of it as it is an internal UK matter. He does not care how May meets her "promises" to Unionists so long as she meets her commitments to the EU.

I see no mention of GB/NI alignment in Mays 5 points speech today.
Trumps protectionist policies announced yesterday must be 1 further puncture in the Brexiteers wheels.

[trailer]

The Irish government, the EU and sane Brits have all been warning that a hard border could provide the opportunity for "dissidents" to reopen the tinderbox of the troubles. A border in the Irish Sea has just as much potential to have it reopened by the other side.

No. it doesn't. A few paperwork checks at Cairnryan or vets checking cows are not easily targetted by loyalist loonies. A border at the border not only provides easier targets but it creates a whole smuggling industry that would entirely undermine the PSNI. There is no symmetry in these matters, as usual, and it is lazy to imply that there is.

This already happens. There are lots of agricultural products checked in Larne / Carinryan. A border already exists in the Irish Sea. The fact that this hasn't been pointed out to the DUP is a reflection on the lacky media in NI & GB.

[armaghniac]

The Irish government, the EU and sane Brits have all been warning that a hard border could provide the opportunity for "dissidents" to reopen the tinderbox of the troubles. A border in the Irish Sea has just as much potential to have it reopened by the other side.

No. it doesn't. A few paperwork checks at Cairnryan or vets checking cows are not easily targetted by loyalist loonies. A border at the border not only provides easier targets but it creates a whole smuggling industry that would entirely undermine the PSNI. There is no symmetry in these matters, as usual, and it is lazy to imply that there is.

This already happens. There are lots of agricultural products checked in Larne / Carinryan. A border already exists in the Irish Sea. The fact that this hasn't been pointed out to the DUP is a reflection on the lacky media in NI & GB.

The media are part of the problem here, as they have allowed the Brexiteers make all sorts of outrageous and inaccurate statements without being challenged.

[Denn Forever]

It's getting like NI politics.

[seafoid]

The DUP are insane. Protestants are soon to be a minority in NI. Brexit will reduce their standard of living and speed up emigration of the best and brightest. The EU is offering them a way to stay in the Single market. they don't want it. They think the sociopaths driving Brexit care about Linfield and the 12th of July.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/mar/02/may-brexit-speech-theresa-may-to-use-her-brexit-speech-to-say-we-cant-have-everything-grayling-says-politics-live

DUP welcome May's speech


Arlene Foster, the DUP leader, has welcomed the speech. She put out this statement.

 

"The prime minister has set forward the basis upon which it would be possible to move forward. The issues facing both the United Kingdom and the European Union are of fundamental importance and it is vital that we achieve outcomes that are sustainable for the future.

I welcome the prime minister's clear commitment that she will not countenance any new border being created in the Irish Sea between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland goods must have unfettered access to trade into Great Britain and the same must apply to Great Britain goods entering Northern Ireland. Indeed, it is particularly welcome that one of the 'five tests' is strengthening the Union.

Securing a sensible outcome for everyone will require the EU27 to consider innovative solutions rather than rule out any proposal which has not been conceived in Brussels. As Michel Barnier himself has said "the solution cannot be based on a precedent."

Last August's United Kingdom proposals were innovative but did not receive a fair hearing in many quarters. Those proposals can ensure there is no hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland after we exit the EU.

We want to see an outcome that protects the economic and constitutional integrity of the United Kingdom but one that also enables us to have a good trading relationship with our nearest neighbours. "

[Stall the Bailer]

All the talk is off no hard border (no definition what hard means). It is interesting that they are not saying there will be no border at all. Meaning they know there will be some sort of enhanced border.
I can't see anyone in Westminster going for the default option from the EU, with a border in the sea.
Likewise I don't think many in Westminster really cares if there were to be a hard border. No Tory or labour votes at risk due to it happening.
Only the Irish government and by extension EU looking for it to remain as is.

[armaghniac]

All the talk is off no hard border (no definition what hard means). It is interesting that they are not saying there will be no border at all. Meaning they know there will be some sort of enhanced border.
I can't see anyone in Westminster going for the default option from the EU, with a border in the sea.
Likewise I don't think many in Westminster really cares if there were to be a hard border. No Tory or labour votes at risk due to it happening.
Only the Irish government and by extension EU looking for it to remain as is.

Equally there are no votes to be lost in GB from having an Irish sea border, and preserving the GFA sounds good, so it now provides Labour with a distinct policy.

But the question is whether May can go for no deal on the basis on refusing to compromise on the Irish border. This would not be popular with British business interests, traditionally close to the Tories and doesn't look well internationally either.

[seafoid]

All the talk is off no hard border (no definition what hard means). It is interesting that they are not saying there will be no border at all. Meaning they know there will be some sort of enhanced border.
I can't see anyone in Westminster going for the default option from the EU, with a border in the sea.
Likewise I don't think many in Westminster really cares if there were to be a hard border. No Tory or labour votes at risk due to it happening.
Only the Irish government and by extension EU looking for it to remain as is.

Equally there are no votes to be lost in GB from having an Irish sea border, and preserving the GFA sounds good, so it now provides Labour with a distinct policy.

But the question is whether May can go for no deal on the basis on refusing to compromise on the Irish border. This would not be popular with British business interests, traditionally close to the Tories and doesn't look well internationally either.

May has no leverage and is in a weakened state. The EU have all the cards.

[Stall the Bailer]

All the talk is off no hard border (no definition what hard means). It is interesting that they are not saying there will be no border at all. Meaning they know there will be some sort of enhanced border.
I can't see anyone in Westminster going for the default option from the EU, with a border in the sea.
Likewise I don't think many in Westminster really cares if there were to be a hard border. No Tory or labour votes at risk due to it happening.
Only the Irish government and by extension EU looking for it to remain as is.

Equally there are no votes to be lost in GB from having an Irish sea border, and preserving the GFA sounds good, so it now provides Labour with a distinct policy.

But the question is whether May can go for no deal on the basis on refusing to compromise on the Irish border. This would not be popular with British business interests, traditionally close to the Tories and doesn't look well internationally either.

I would argue that the perception of the breakup of the union by having a border in the Irish sea would be a vote loser. All the talk this week ok an annex surely wouldn't be good for votes.
I hope you are right and that is how it happens but can't see it.

[AQMP]

All the talk is off no hard border (no definition what hard means). It is interesting that they are not saying there will be no border at all. Meaning they know there will be some sort of enhanced border.
I can't see anyone in Westminster going for the default option from the EU, with a border in the sea.
Likewise I don't think many in Westminster really cares if there were to be a hard border. No Tory or labour votes at risk due to it happening.
Only the Irish government and by extension EU looking for it to remain as is.

Equally there are no votes to be lost in GB from having an Irish sea border, and preserving the GFA sounds good, so it now provides Labour with a distinct policy.

But the question is whether May can go for no deal on the basis on refusing to compromise on the Irish border. This would not be popular with British business interests, traditionally close to the Tories and doesn't look well internationally either.

May has no leverage and is in a weakened state. The EU have all the cards.

Yes, Verhofstadt has already said that May's big speech was shite and Barnier has tweeted that he looks forward to taking the UK to the cleaners in the next round of talks.

[Stall the Bailer]

All the talk is off no hard border (no definition what hard means). It is interesting that they are not saying there will be no border at all. Meaning they know there will be some sort of enhanced border.
I can't see anyone in Westminster going for the default option from the EU, with a border in the sea.
Likewise I don't think many in Westminster really cares if there were to be a hard border. No Tory or labour votes at risk due to it happening.
Only the Irish government and by extension EU looking for it to remain as is.

Equally there are no votes to be lost in GB from having an Irish sea border, and preserving the GFA sounds good, so it now provides Labour with a distinct policy.

But the question is whether May can go for no deal on the basis on refusing to compromise on the Irish border. This would not be popular with British business interests, traditionally close to the Tories and doesn't look well internationally either.

May has no leverage and is in a weakened state. The EU have all the cards.

She still has the option of no deal, which means a hard border. We know it would be illogical but then it is brexit after all.

[seafoid]

All the talk is off no hard border (no definition what hard means). It is interesting that they are not saying there will be no border at all. Meaning they know there will be some sort of enhanced border.
I can't see anyone in Westminster going for the default option from the EU, with a border in the sea.
Likewise I don't think many in Westminster really cares if there were to be a hard border. No Tory or labour votes at risk due to it happening.
Only the Irish government and by extension EU looking for it to remain as is.

Equally there are no votes to be lost in GB from having an Irish sea border, and preserving the GFA sounds good, so it now provides Labour with a distinct policy.

But the question is whether May can go for no deal on the basis on refusing to compromise on the Irish border. This would not be popular with British business interests, traditionally close to the Tories and doesn't look well internationally either.

May has no leverage and is in a weakened state. The EU have all the cards.

She still has the option of no deal, which means a hard border. We know it would be illogical but then it is brexit after all.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/02/theresa-may-brexit-speech-panel

"Is it worth it?" asked a wise German journalist. That's what "Britain must decide. Fear the worst when she reprised her dreadful threat: "No deal is still better than a bad deal." Surely by now she knows no deal is the worst fate of all."

[Ronnie]

Borders.  If your paperwork is checked in Larne/Dover/Dublin/Rosslare does that amount to a border?  Is the EU deciding to refuse licences to UK firms providing services in France a good thing?  I heard the Blackpool QT audience telling Kenneth Clarke to get on with it.  Fine he said.  You want unicorns too?  Perhaps May and Corbyn are secretly contriving some utopian liberal self-sustaining society.  We'll be ok when we've the deals with China, Russia, U.S. and Canada in the bag.  If the NI Dept of Agriculture chooses to follow EU regs in 2027 does that mean that the sovereignty of the HC has been diluted?  If the DUP refuse to allow gay rights, language rights, environmental rights and religious rights in Belfast does that mean that we can't enforce these rights in London?  I heard one of their representatives saying that the farmers will thrive.  Really?

[Ronnie]

Seafoid - aren't you the poster who said that the people of GB couldn't care less about the Somme?  Do you have many supporters on here?

[yellowcard]

If May starts trying to call the shots, she will be left with no deal which would signal the UK economy signing its own death warrant. She has flip flopped throughout this process more than enough to say that they are just making it up as they go along. They (the UK govt) have absolutely no idea where this is going other than the fact that it's simply damage limitation mode but they have to be seen to try to implement Brexit even though their heart is not in it.