Time for Joe to go??

[AZOffaly]

The same reason Kevin Moran would haul down a Kilkenny hurler going through on goal or most other players for that matter. I'm as much against rank cynicism as anyone but lets not kid ourselves we would all, as players, pull a guy down going for goal late in the game or look for a player to do it if we were coaches or fans. It's the rules and the cynical fouling further out that are the problem I think.

The comparison with hurling is pointless (no pun intended) because fouls in hurling outside the small rectangle to prevent goals still carry a heavy potential for a goal so the punishment can fit the crime, whereas it's practically impossible to score a goal in football if the opposition can put any amount of players between you and the goal. I saw plenty of incidents in the second game tonight where players had gilt-edged chances for goals yet I didn't see one player get chopped down as he was about to pull the trigger*. This is because most players do not go out to foul their opponent and saying over and over again that they do does not make it true. Now, whether Brolly is correct that Tyrone are sending out teams with instructions to immediately take out a player before making an honest attempt to win the ball, I don't know. It's entirely possible that Brolly has conjured up an idea and is ramming the facts into place that fit his prejudice. He was banging on about Tyrone closing out the game against Kildare two weeks ago by fouling which seemed dubious to me at the time, so I was inclined to think that he was employing the QC tactic of only focusing on incidents that supported his case and ignoring those that don't. Listening to Sean Kavanagh though, it bolsters Brolly's case.

*Perhaps in each case the back knew the forward would miss

The point re hurling is that players would foul to prevent a goal as did Cavanagh. Yes, there were other goal chances today but I'm not sure there were any straight on goal with the game in the balance as was the case with Cananagh and while not everyone might have fouled then I'm sure every player would have wised he did on looking back at it in either code.

What did Shane O'Neill do to Colm Fennelly there against Kilkenny last week? I can't believe some people are thinking that this does not go on, and would not go on, all the time. How many times have you heard 'take him down' or 'foul him there!'?

To be honest I call that desperation, not cynicism per se. The cynicism I would like to eradicate from the game happens 60 yards from the opposition goal and is systematically carried out by teams who lose the ball. Their forwards (not backs at all most of the time) drag down the opponent to stop the quick counter, and allow themselves to get set up.

I think in the situation like yesterday, there's a high likelihood that Cavanagh would have done the same thing no matter the penalty. And to be honest I'd be shocked if he didn't. I know in Kerry, the feeling was that if Declan O'Sullivan hadn't been concussed in that fateful moment in the last minutes against Dublin, he'd have hauled down Kevin McMenamon before the goal, and Kerry would have won that All Ireland.

[5 Sams]

Just watched it again. Absolutely brilliant television...

Unreal. My favourite part is Michael Lyster saying to Joe, 'no hold on yourself'. Classic!!

...or. Spillane and O'Rourke trying to stop themselves laughing at the end when Michael gives out to Joe.

[Walter Cronc]

Has anyone got a link to the actual tackle by Cavanagh??

[Lone Shark]

What I can't understand in all this is that if Joe is so passionate about the problem within the rule book, why alter the terms of the debate by personalising the issue in a manner that so many people are likely to find distasteful? Whatever else you can say about him, he's clearly an intelligent man and if he choose to direct his rant about the way the rules encouraged Seán Cavanagh to do this and how that clearly needs adjustment, people would listen. However by going as far as he did, he's made the whole thing personal and we're not talking about the rule book as much. I can't fathom why Joe would want this.

In my own view, I'm torn. I find it hard to blame Cavanagh in one sense - what he did saved his team two points, and his team won by two points. It was a purely logical act - he committed the foul and he took the maximum sanction that the referee was allowed to give. However taking this same line of thinking to other situations, a horrible vista appears. For example, we've seen in the last two games by the Cork hurlers that Pat Horgan is clearly worth five or six points per game to them. I know from experience as a bookie that on average, a red card is worth between two and three points to the team with the numerical advantage. By that logic a weak Dublin player could line out in the AI semi, deliberately take Pat Horgan out of the game with an aggressive foul in the first minute, take his red card and Dublin would be better off. It's completely the same principle, and all the defences been used for Cavanagh could still apply, with the exception of the completely made up "X% of guys would do the same". It would be a different X.

You can't always legislate for every situation and there will always be an element of grey area in the rule book where certain fouls might pay off for the offenders. It's always been that way - some of the stuff that defenders used to get up to in the 70s and 80s was downright repulsive when viewed in today's light - but we were conditioned to think that it was just the way the game was and that it was more "manly" - which is garbage. Ultimately you have to depend on players to know where the line is between acceptable and unacceptable, and I don't like Seán Cavanagh's idea that players will always go as far as the rule book permits.

I think he might see it differently if Mayo/Donegal lined out against him in the semi-final and knocked four teeth out of his head in the first minute to take Tyrone's best player out of the game. The principle would be exactly the same, and that's a question that I'd love to hear him answer.

[AZOffaly]

You think delberately taking a player out of the game by injuring him badly or intentionally is the same thing as fouling a lad straight through on goal, because in principle it is the same thing?

Logically I can see the correlation, in that it theoretically translates into an advantage on the scoreboard, statiscally, but I have to say that comparing them is disinegenous.

At any level, in any game, a defender coming back will try any desperate tactic to prevent a goal. I've seen hurleys thrown, attempted hand trips, attempted foot trips, high tackles, low tackles everything, all in desperate, illegal, attempts to prevent the goal. Sometimes they succeed and are dealt with by the ref and the laws of the game, just like Shane O'Neill last week. (Although he probably should have seen red for the strike, instead of yellow for the 'cynical foul' which is what Cavangh got).

Sometimes they don't succeed and the lad scores the goal.

God knows I hate the systematic and systemic fouling which has crept into the game, particularly those non-obvious fouls like the ones higlighted by mrs mills above, and also the drag back, drag down fouls by forwards to stop an attack.

In the case of what Cavanagh has done though, it is something that I do genuinely believe most players would do. (Remember Cluxton versus ourselves in 2006). The rules may not punish it enough for our tastes, I wouldn't argue with that, but I also believe that if Cavanagh was going to be sent off for that yesterday, he'd still have done it.

[Maguire01]

Has anyone got a link to the actual tackle by Cavanagh??

[Walter Cronc]

Has anyone got a link to the actual tackle by Cavanagh??

Cheers!

[sam03/05]

Joe had no problems celebrating in 2006 when Derry beat Tyrone in Omagh. If you watch the game you will see some of the most cynical tackles and play of the previous 15 years. The Tyrone players were simply not allowed to play, and Sean Cavanagh was pulled to the ground at every sign of danger.

Joe was dancing in the stands afterwards and had no problems with the Derry style of play, which at the end of the day won them the game.

Maybe Joe should go back and have a look at that game and his comments about it afterwards before he launches another personal attack.

[Lone Shark]

The Kennelly tackle is the perfect example, though admittedly it worked out all the better for Kerry because he didn't actually get sent off for it. Foul play can pay off.

Neither am I saying there is no difference between what Cavanagh did and a tackle that would do serious injury to a player. Of course there is a difference in scale - however both offences are clearly wrong, yet for some arbitrary reason we've decided that a line exists somewhere between the two.

However we can say clearly that in both instances, the offending team are the ones to benefit even when the perpetrator is given the maximum sanction available. Both instances are clearly wrong on an ethical level. The scale is the only thing at issue and I would suggest that any one of that Monaghan team would happily take a broken bone this morning if they were in an All Ireland semi-final. What Cavanagh did hurt them more than any punch he could have thrown.

[AZOffaly]

Fionntamhnach, I understand why you call that cynicism, but I see them as two different things. When a lad is dragged down out the field, in a calculated, planned manner, to disrupt mounting attacks, or to allow the defending team get into position as per the game plan, I call that real cynicism.

When a fella is trying his best to prevent a goal, fair means or foul with a last ditch tackle, I call that desperation.

I agree that we probably don't have adequate provision in the rule book to deal with it, but I think it is a different situation to the stuff that pisses me off.

[popinpopout]

In the case of what Cavanagh has done though, it is something that I do genuinely believe most players would do. (Remember Cluxton versus ourselves in 2006). The rules may not punish it enough for our tastes, I wouldn't argue with that, but I also believe that if Cavanagh was going to be sent off for that yesterday, he'd still have done it.

As I mentioned in the Tyrone/Monaghan game thread, a number of years back my old school was playing St. Ciaran's Clara in an All-Ireland U16 semi-final with the game deep into injury time with Clara leading by two points, one of our players is through on goal with the ball and a Clara defender in desperation pulled him down just outside the penalty area. He got sent off for the tackle but his sacrifice was enough for St. Ciaran's to win the game and then onwards to winning the All-Ireland Junior Football VS title. It was a risk that paid off even if our supporters were annoyed to hell by the cynicism of it.

Some of us will do our jobs well and some will not, but we will be judged by only one thing-the result.

[AZOffaly]

The Kennelly tackle is the perfect example, though admittedly it worked out all the better for Kerry because he didn't actually get sent off for it. Foul play can pay off.

Neither am I saying there is no difference between what Cavanagh did and a tackle that would do serious injury to a player. Of course there is a difference in scale - however both offences are clearly wrong, yet for some arbitrary reason we've decided that a line exists somewhere between the two.

However we can say clearly that in both instances, the offending team are the ones to benefit even when the perpetrator is given the maximum sanction available. Both instances are clearly wrong on an ethical level. The scale is the only thing at issue and I would suggest that any one of that Monaghan team would happily take a broken bone this morning if they were in an All Ireland semi-final. What Cavanagh did hurt them more than any punch he could have thrown.

I would say one of the lines is the level of pre-meditation and calculated approach. There is a big difference between saying, or being told, that you are going to go out an butcher a lad from the start because he's dangerous and finding yourself in a split second situation where you use whatever you can to stop a clear goal chance.

As I said, I wouldn't argue that the rule book is strong enough in this area. I also wouldn't argue that it's fair play. However I would argue that it is not as calculated as other less high profile cynical acts which litter football at this stage. I would also argue that it has always been thus, and even though it's obviously anecdotal as opposed to scientific, I believe that the vast majority of players would do exactly the same thing in the morning. I bet it happens 50 times this morning in club games up and down the country, albeit maybe not as elegantly executed as Cavanaghs rugby tackle.

I'm up at home this weekend, and I've spoken to a few ex-players, current players, current coaches, ex-coaches and none of them thought that what Cavanagh did was in any way 'remarkable', and they would either do it themselves, have done it themselves, or would expect their players to do it if the situation arose. Not in a calculated way, but in an instinctive, desperate manner.

[Smokin Joe]

Was Cavanagh's haul down any different to what Shields did in the second game?

He picked the ball straight up off the ground in last gasp desperation because he knew that if he didn't commit the foul that his team would concede a goal.
He was very lucky in that he got away with it.

But for my money, both instances are the same.  The player did what he had to do to limit the damage to their team.

Why is Shields' morals not being questioned?

I think that shows that Brolly's rant was a more an anti-Tyrone one than one built on logic.

[AZOffaly]

Good point Joe, and I actually meant to remark on it. Again, an act of last ditch desperation by a lad who knew he was doing wrong. And again an act that I would expect every player in the country to do in the same situation.

[omagh_gael]

Joe had no problems celebrating in 2006 when Derry beat Tyrone in Omagh. If you watch the game you will see some of the most cynical tackles and play of the previous 15 years. The Tyrone players were simply not allowed to play, and Sean Cavanagh was pulled to the ground at every sign of danger.

Joe was dancing in the stands afterwards and had no problems with the Derry style of play, which at the end of the day won them the game.

Maybe Joe should go back and have a look at that game and his comments about it afterwards before he launches another personal attack.

An excellent example of Joe's ridiculous hypocrisy. That game was equal if not worse than any 'tactics' Tyrone employ. We all know Joe fires out controversial analysis and to stir the pot and raise his profile and I would normally take it with a large pinch of salt. The personal digs/insults of Sean and Mickey go way beyond the pale and, in actual fact, would make me think far less of the man Joe Brolly rather than SC.