RTE, cannot let this continue. Granted , people will watch him, just too see shite like today's rant. However , indiscriminate attacks on amateur players, who burst there asses on a nightly basis, has no place in the GAA, or on national TV. ZERO analysis of the actual game? He clearly has his own agenda, and as of today should be removed from his role as a pundit
He is a hypocrite, how can he more or less slander a fellow amateur and then cry that Sean is abusing the ethos of the GAA.
Completely an utterly uncalled for - you can say he's doing it for entertainment but it's just downright tiresome now
Quote"He's a brilliant footballer but you can forget about Sean Cavanagh as a man."
Said they should got rid of him about 3 yrs ago, was giving Derry people a bad name. Tohill was about more sensible called it straight but got the road after giving out about a Kerry player one yr
I've said it before, he is an Après Match pundit. He's not to be taken seriously and RTE need to decide whether they want proper tactical analysis of the games or nonsensical rants which may be entertaining but add no value to the to the viewers understanding of the game.
I don't understand why he hates Tyrone so much? Can any northern lads explain this?
To be honest, I don't mind Brolly. He puts Spillane and the Kerry boys in their place.
MIchael Lyster apologised for his comments today but he has been getting away with murder for years having personal attacks on Amateur players . Spillane and O' Rourke didn't know what to do or say just held on to their seats for dear life.
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on August 03, 2013, 08:51:45 PM
I don't understand why he hates Tyrone so much? Can any northern lads explain this?
He loved Tyrone for years, the same way he loves Donegal now. Personally, I agree with him that Tyrone's cynicism today was an absolute disgrace. The attention will probably centre on the way he attacked Cavanagh.
I wouldn't say he hates tyrone, his cousins are from the Moy, he backed Tyrone to the hilt for 5/6 yrs when alot of presenters didnt bck round when they played Kerry, seemed to have jumped on a Donegal / Mayo Bandwagon recently especially after Donegal turning Tyrone over 3yrs running!!
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on August 03, 2013, 08:51:45 PM
I don't understand why he hates Tyrone so much? Can any northern lads explain this?
To be honest, I don't mind Brolly. He puts Spillane and the Kerry boys in their place.
You obviously don't know the Derry/Tyrone rivalry too well. Thing is we're probably so similar that we hate to see the other do well.
Joe deserves a pay-rise after tonight.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/602496_10151872190466042_75094139_n.jpg)
Was Joe wrong with the substance of his point?
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on August 03, 2013, 09:01:55 PM
Was Joe wrong with the substance of his point?
He could have made his point without having a personal attack on Kavanagh .
he was right in what he said about cynical fouling blight on the games which was the context of the matter, its picking out 1 player, basically insult his manliness was stupid, childish and in very poor taste. What beat me was how cross he was, i actually thought he was going to pull the pin and walk off, Its was like one of those famous melltdowns like Kerry katona had on TV
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 03, 2013, 09:06:19 PM
he was right in what he said about cynical fouling blight on the games which was the context of the matter, its picking out 1 player, basically insult his manliness was stupid, childish and in very poor taste. What beat me was how cross he was, i actually thought he was going to pull the pin and walk off, Its was like one of those famous melltdowns like Kerry katona had on TV
:D :D I thought the same i was have expecting to Jump throught the glass in the studio .
Quote from: small white mayoman on August 03, 2013, 09:04:10 PM
He could have made his point without having a personal attack on Kavanagh .
Of course, not only could he have - but he should have.
But at the same time, about the crux of the matter; he is not wrong.
on another note the DUP have given brolly the once over, With Ruth Patterson on her way out, they are in need of a outspoken controversial individual that will offend everyone. After all, they like to go with a like for like basis. lol
Leave Joe alone!
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj314/daneswan/leave-britney-alone.jpg)
to be fair to Joe, it's not like him to lose his cool like that. I actually thought he was going to say the opposite.
QuoteJoe Brolly @JoeBrolly1993 3h
Shocking Sean Cavanagh rugby tackle on Conor McManus when he was clean through on goal. Mickey will be delighted!!
QuoteJoe Brolly @JoeBrolly1993 3h
What Cavanagh has just done illustrates how rotten the game has become
With Brolly there is an agenda ALWAYS. When he criticised Grimley he was trying to promote the Tony McEntee for Armagh agenda. Everyone knows he was invited to Crossmaglen training sessions and he championed Tony McEntee as footballs saviour.
With Donegal he clearly was sucked in by the aura of Jim McGuinness who took defensive tactics to unseen levels in Gaelic football and yet Joe eulogised over how they controlled games. I even remember him saying recently how he admired McGuinness nerve for playing the way he did against Dublin in that famous 2011 0-8 to 0-6 defeat. He has got pally with McGees and Murphy as well and has a holiday home up in the Glenties.
With Tyrone its obvious he has a deep disliking for his neighbouring county. Any eejit can see that it's more than the football with Brolly but he is just making himself look like a jabbering fool. The sad part of it is that he does make some good points when not getting emotionally involved in the game and when not resorting to cheap snidely digs at amateur players. He can also be very entertaining at times. Recently however he has just become an embarrassment.
Hell i dislike Tyrone more than any man, the borderline 200m up the road, have plenty pf Tyrone friends and theirs always plenty of banter!! but i would never come out with the crap Brolly did the nite, simply cant understand why he lost the run of himself!! Thought it been Splillane going Nuts but he couldnt get a word in!!
Lads look at it this way, the Ulster Champs have been knocked out, Dublin and Cork served up a good game, but all anybody is talking about is Joe Brolly. Job doen for RTE again and they know it, More people will tune in to see the hor ha the next day round
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 03, 2013, 09:25:09 PM
Lads look at it this way, the Ulster Champs have been knocked out, Dublin and Cork served up a good game, but all anybody is talking about is Joe Brolly. Job doen for RTE again and they know it, More people will tune in to see the hor ha the next day round
To be fair everything tonight went entirely to script apart from Broly's rant.
No chance of a reprimand from RTE. it's a ratings business and he attracts viewers.
I'd sooner get rid of the other two non-enities than Joe, though his personalising of cynical fouling was uncalled for and brilliantly handled by Cavanagh on Newstalk where he showed a lot of class and maturity.
Quote from: Zulu on August 03, 2013, 09:39:57 PM
I'd sooner get rid of the other two non-enities than Joe, though his personalising of cynical fouling was uncalled for and brilliantly handled by Cavanagh on Newstalk where he showed a lot of class and maturity.
What did he say? That's the problem too now with the RTE ban you never hear the Tyrone camp talk anymore.
Quote from: Zulu on August 03, 2013, 09:39:57 PM
I'd sooner get rid of the other two non-enities than Joe, though his personalising of cynical fouling was uncalled for and brilliantly handled by Cavanagh on Newstalk where he showed a lot of class and maturity.
Lyster & Spillane?
First time I've witnessed Lister get pissed off with anyone. Funny to see Joe sit like a scoulded child after the rest of the lads didn't buy into his crap.
Quote from: Jinxy on August 03, 2013, 09:50:12 PM
Quote from: Zulu on August 03, 2013, 09:39:57 PM
I'd sooner get rid of the other two non-enities than Joe, though his personalising of cynical fouling was uncalled for and brilliantly handled by Cavanagh on Newstalk where he showed a lot of class and maturity.
Lyster & Spillane?
Isn't there a Leitrim buck on the panel? Seems unfair on Broly and Spillane to be out-numbered by Connacht men the whole time.
Quote from: yellowcard on August 03, 2013, 09:47:03 PM
Quote from: Zulu on August 03, 2013, 09:39:57 PM
I'd sooner get rid of the other two non-enities than Joe, though his personalising of cynical fouling was uncalled for and brilliantly handled by Cavanagh on Newstalk where he showed a lot of class and maturity.
What did he say? That's the problem too now with the RTE ban you never hear the Tyrone camp talk anymore.
I'll try to find the link but he basically said he'd love to see rules in place so that the type of foul he had to make was punished to deter him from making it. He was a class act in the interview.
Jinxy, Lyster should go to but O'Rourke isn't bringing much to the party anymore either and I used to like him as an analyst. New blood badly needed.
Quote from: Zulu on August 03, 2013, 10:05:13 PM
I'll try to find the link but he basically said he'd love to see rules in place so that the type of foul he had to make was punished to deter him from making it. He was a class act in the interview
I wish there was a rule that would protect me from myself? Maybe something has been lost in translation, but that doesn't sound classy at all.
Sean's interview
http://www.newstalk.ie/Sean-Cavanagh-Interview-Post-All-Ireland-Quarter-Final
Quote from: deiseach on August 03, 2013, 10:10:55 PM
Quote from: Zulu on August 03, 2013, 10:05:13 PM
I'll try to find the link but he basically said he'd love to see rules in place so that the type of foul he had to make was punished to deter him from making it. He was a class act in the interview
I wish there was a rule that would protect me from myself? Maybe something has been lost in translation, but that doesn't sound classy at all.
So your commenting on what you think someone said about what someone else said? Cavanaghs point was that as an attacking player he would welcome the black card as he has been fouled much more than he has fouled and therefore would help his enjoyment of the game.
Quote from: deiseach on August 03, 2013, 10:10:55 PM
Quote from: Zulu on August 03, 2013, 10:05:13 PM
I'll try to find the link but he basically said he'd love to see rules in place so that the type of foul he had to make was punished to deter him from making it. He was a class act in the interview
I wish there was a rule that would protect me from myself? Maybe something has been lost in translation, but that doesn't sound classy at all.
It's the lack of deterrent that's the problem which was the point Cavanagh made and correctly so.
Quote from: deiseach on August 03, 2013, 10:10:55 PM
Quote from: Zulu on August 03, 2013, 10:05:13 PM
I'll try to find the link but he basically said he'd love to see rules in place so that the type of foul he had to make was punished to deter him from making it. He was a class act in the interview
I wish there was a rule that would protect me from myself? Maybe something has been lost in translation, but that doesn't sound classy at all.
It's like a burglar blaming the justice system for his criminality.
I was listening to the newstalk interview live and Cavanagh came across very well, Darragh Ose, David Brady and Colm Parkinson all agreed with him. He spoke honestly and truthfully, at this stage Brolly has got tiresome. I used to enjoy reading his newspaper columns and his analysis on rte but this last two years or eighteen months he is getting very childish and pompous. The sunday game could do with a complete overhaul in my opinion.
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 03, 2013, 10:15:07 PM
So your commenting on what you think someone said about what someone else said? Cavanaghs point was that as an attacking player he would welcome the black card as he has been fouled much more than he has fouled.
Yes, I am. I've now listened to the interview. He says "I don't want to play football that way" so why does he? He's clearly happy to play football that way otherwise he wouldn't do it. He says that 99% of players would do the same thing, but that's not true. As Brolly noted in his rant, no one would ever score a goal because all you'd have to do was hack them down outside the area before they got anywhere near the goal. Brolly's position seems to be that instead you find that 99% of players go in with the intention of winning the ball clean whatever the situation, whereas Tyrone are consciously exploiting the fact that the gap between the punishment and the crime is so wide. I was thinking this was a bit of a stretch on Brolly's part, but now I'm not so sure.
He came across as a lad who had just lost a major bet on monaghan.
Quote from: Jinxy on August 03, 2013, 10:22:36 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 03, 2013, 10:10:55 PM
Quote from: Zulu on August 03, 2013, 10:05:13 PM
I'll try to find the link but he basically said he'd love to see rules in place so that the type of foul he had to make was punished to deter him from making it. He was a class act in the interview
I wish there was a rule that would protect me from myself? Maybe something has been lost in translation, but that doesn't sound classy at all.
It's like a burglar blaming the justice system for his criminality.
No it's not, it's like a rich guy speeding who only used to get a fine, it wasn't a deterrent so he still did it.
QuoteHe says "I don't want to play football that way" so why does he?
The same reason Kevin Moran would haul down a Kilkenny hurler going through on goal or most other players for that matter. I'm as much against rank cynicism as anyone but lets not kid ourselves we would all, as players, pull a guy down going for goal late in the game or look for a player to do it if we were coaches or fans. It's the rules and the cynical fouling further out that are the problem I think.
Fair play to Colm Parkinson for the question about the black card and Mickey Harte's opposition. It just dripped with the unspoken comment "it's because you ARE sent out to foul deliberately, aren't you?" ;D
Just because the rules aren't there to penalise someone strongly enough from doing something as blatant as a rugby tackle, doesn't mean that they are helpless but to go ahead and commit the foul...
It's a poor reflection on the game and I don't think the black card will go far enough to eradicate it either
I agree, but I don't ever remember a time where players wouldn't pull down a player going in on goal. I know you could point to days like the Foley goal v Dublin but even then we all knew about fouling to prevent a goal it's just we didn't always do it like we probably would now.
Didn't listen to it this evening but himself and O'Rourke (although he seems to have tempered it in recent times) are complete clowns – I remember watching an Offaly v Kildare (I think?) game 7-8 years ago and Ciaran McManus was having a shocker, must have blazed 5-6 balls wide in the first half after steaming through the middle. O'Rourke and Brolly basically highlighted these in a sequence and were having a bit of a skit about McManus not being able to shoot straight. Considering it's an amateur game and the amount of service he gave to Offaly football (during what wouldn't have been great years), it was completely uncalled for.
Both of them were great players in their time but they're complete gobsh*tes and neither has ever put himself forward to actually manage a team.
Quote from: Zulu on August 03, 2013, 10:36:57 PM
The same reason Kevin Moran would haul down a Kilkenny hurler going through on goal or most other players for that matter. I'm as much against rank cynicism as anyone but lets not kid ourselves we would all, as players, pull a guy down going for goal late in the game or look for a player to do it if we were coaches or fans. It's the rules and the cynical fouling further out that are the problem I think.
The comparison with hurling is pointless (no pun intended) because fouls in hurling outside the small rectangle to prevent goals still carry a heavy potential for a goal so the punishment can fit the crime, whereas it's practically impossible to score a goal in football if the opposition can put any amount of players between you and the goal. I saw plenty of incidents in the second game tonight where players had gilt-edged chances for goals yet I didn't see one player get chopped down as he was about to pull the trigger*. This is because most players do not go out to foul their opponent and saying over and over again that they do does not make it true. Now, whether Brolly is correct that Tyrone are sending out teams with instructions to immediately take out a player before making an honest attempt to win the ball, I don't know. It's entirely possible that Brolly has conjured up an idea and is ramming the facts into place that fit his prejudice. He was banging on about Tyrone closing out the game against Kildare two weeks ago by fouling which seemed dubious to me at the time, so I was inclined to think that he was employing the QC tactic of only focusing on incidents that supported his case and ignoring those that don't. Listening to Sean Kavanagh though, it bolsters Brolly's case.
*Perhaps in each case the back knew the forward would miss :P
Joe Brolly comes out of this looking like a bitter little fool that more and more people are catching on to where as Sean Cavanagh comes out dripping with class both on the field and in his interview. One bookable tackle can not take away from his class. Joe needs to think about lowering his alcahol intake.
Quote from: EC Unique on August 03, 2013, 10:57:33 PM
Joe Brolly comes out of this looking like a bitter little fool that more and more people are catching on to where as Sean Cavanagh comes out dripping with class both on the field and in his interview. One bookable tackle can not take away from his class. Joe needs to think about lowering his alcahol intake.
So do you by the sounds of that! #dripping
Quote from: deiseach on August 03, 2013, 10:28:23 PMHe says that 99% of players would do the same thing, but that's not true.
You are right - 100% of players would
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on August 03, 2013, 11:10:44 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 03, 2013, 10:28:23 PMHe says that 99% of players would do the same thing, but that's not true.
You are right - 100% of players would
88.2% of statistics are made up on the spot.
Quote from: deiseach on August 03, 2013, 10:56:10 PM
Quote from: Zulu on August 03, 2013, 10:36:57 PM
The same reason Kevin Moran would haul down a Kilkenny hurler going through on goal or most other players for that matter. I'm as much against rank cynicism as anyone but lets not kid ourselves we would all, as players, pull a guy down going for goal late in the game or look for a player to do it if we were coaches or fans. It's the rules and the cynical fouling further out that are the problem I think.
The comparison with hurling is pointless (no pun intended) because fouls in hurling outside the small rectangle to prevent goals still carry a heavy potential for a goal so the punishment can fit the crime, whereas it's practically impossible to score a goal in football if the opposition can put any amount of players between you and the goal. I saw plenty of incidents in the second game tonight where players had gilt-edged chances for goals yet I didn't see one player get chopped down as he was about to pull the trigger*. This is because most players do not go out to foul their opponent and saying over and over again that they do does not make it true. Now, whether Brolly is correct that Tyrone are sending out teams with instructions to immediately take out a player before making an honest attempt to win the ball, I don't know. It's entirely possible that Brolly has conjured up an idea and is ramming the facts into place that fit his prejudice. He was banging on about Tyrone closing out the game against Kildare two weeks ago by fouling which seemed dubious to me at the time, so I was inclined to think that he was employing the QC tactic of only focusing on incidents that supported his case and ignoring those that don't. Listening to Sean Kavanagh though, it bolsters Brolly's case.
*Perhaps in each case the back knew the forward would miss :P
The point re hurling is that players would foul to prevent a goal as did Cavanagh. Yes, there were other goal chances today but I'm not sure there were any straight on goal with the game in the balance as was the case with Cananagh and while not everyone might have fouled then I'm sure every player would have wised he did on looking back at it in either code.
Quote from: deiseach on August 03, 2013, 10:37:14 PM
Fair play to Colm Parkinson for the question about the black card and Mickey Harte's opposition. It just dripped with the unspoken comment "it's because you ARE sent out to foul deliberately, aren't you?" ;D
I find that question ludicrous
no manager sends out his team to foul or even fight.
however, those competitive players would tactically foul to stop the concession f a goal. I'd agree that any player at this level would do this - imo 100% of players.
every team left in the quarter finals (and even the round before apart from london) are all practiced in cynical fouling.
Meath, kildare,galway are as adept at third man tackles, pulling a jersey, pushing , pulling, trash talking and all that nonsense that makes up modern day football (bring back allowances for a punch in the gob which would stop all these wee niggly pieces of crap) as this weekends quarter finalists.
so this vilification of the red arses is plain crazy and imo just wrong.
Joe B is using his QC skills of acting to portray a mock disgust on tyone. his mother is a tyronie and there is no way he hates them. Dungiven is far enough away from the tyrone border for him not to care that much. Maybe his time as a boarder in a school in armagh gave him bad notions of the red arses.
joe obv has been accused as being overly pro Ulster teams and is trying to come across as more balanced (!!!??) and imartial towards nordie sides by highlighting tyrones fouling- but doesnt highlight other teams. last year he went to great pans in highlighting mayo's use of cynical fouling, but has neglected to do the same this year (and mayo continue to foul cynically - same as all the other teams - so why the silence there!!??).
there is an agenda here - and its not one to highlight tyrones fouling tendencies or even highlighting cynical fouling in the game. Joe is just too smart for there not to be one. He is prob at home laughing his hole off. he is a piss taking hoor.
fiontamanachanah - your use of the l/Derry thing is pitiful and certainly drags you down in my estimation - not that this means much.
I have been moved to write a GAA blog after Joe Brolly's outburst on TV today. 'Love him or Hate him', but read him! http://www.jeromequinnmedia.com/-blog/Joe-Brolly---Love-him-or-Hate-him_98 (http://www.jeromequinnmedia.com/-blog/Joe-Brolly---Love-him-or-Hate-him_98)
Quote from: Zulu on August 03, 2013, 11:18:49 PM
The point re hurling is that players would foul to prevent a goal as did Cavanagh. Yes, there were other goal chances today but I'm not sure there were any straight on goal with the game in the balance as was the case with Cananagh and while not everyone might have fouled then I'm sure every player would have wised he did on looking back at it in either code.
And I'm sure John Leahy wishes he had gone for a point right at the end of the 1997 All-Ireland final - but that's only because he didn't succeed in getting the goal that he went for instead. Players generally try to play the ball/man clean because that's what they do, which makes incidents like that all the more striking in their incongruity. Although I'll admit having a notorious smart-arse foam at the mouth about it adds to the notoriety.
Quote from: Gabriel on August 03, 2013, 08:56:15 PM
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on August 03, 2013, 08:51:45 PM
I don't understand why he hates Tyrone so much? Can any northern lads explain this?
He loved Tyrone for years, the same way he loves Donegal now. Personally, I agree with him that Tyrone's cynicism today was an absolute disgrace. The attention will probably centre on the way he attacked Cavanagh.
+1
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 03, 2013, 11:26:12 PM
there is an agenda here - and its not one to highlight tyrones fouling tendencies or even highlighting cynical fouling in the game. Joe is just too smart for there not to be one. He is prob at home laughing his hole off. he is a piss taking hoor.
You're probably right. I remember Les Sealey (RIP) menacing the referee after the ball was incorrectly adjudged to have crossed the line while playing for Villa against Sheffield Wednesday. The incident happened nine minutes before the end and Ron Atkinson later on said that he might have understood a player going mental at the time but to still be angry over ten minutes later was not proportionate. For Brolly to be so righteously 'angry' a good half an hour after the incident seems unlikely. Not a single word he said was not calculated.
McGeeney suggested on BBC that if a clear goal scoring opportunity is prevented then a penalty should be awarded regardless if it occurs inside the box or not. If the player was prevented from scoring a goal then the punishment should at least give the attacker the chance to score a goal. Interesting idea and probably more of a deterant than a black card.
Quote from: deiseach on August 03, 2013, 11:27:23 PM
Quote from: Zulu on August 03, 2013, 11:18:49 PM
The point re hurling is that players would foul to prevent a goal as did Cavanagh. Yes, there were other goal chances today but I'm not sure there were any straight on goal with the game in the balance as was the case with Cananagh and while not everyone might have fouled then I'm sure every player would have wised he did on looking back at it in either code.
And I'm sure John Leahy wishes he had gone for a point right at the end of the 1997 All-Ireland final - but that's only because he didn't succeed in getting the goal that he went for instead. Players generally try to play the ball/man clean because that's what they do, which makes incidents like that all the more striking in their incongruity. Although I'll admit having a notorious smart-arse foam at the mouth about it adds to the notoriety.
im sure most of us played the game clean/within the rules - but in certain circumstances did things like cavanaghs rugby tackle on mcmanus today - I know I certainly did, whenever the occasion arose and every time too id do it.
the black book wont stop this practice next season. players just want to concede a goal and will do whatever it takes to stop one.
Pure gold for RTE. the whole country will be tuning in to see what Joe says next.
The problem with awarding a penalty for fouling in a goal scoring situation is the daftness of referees. We only have to look at the booking of Hughes today to see that a perfectly timed tackle is not only a free but a booking when the ref clearly couldn't adjudge what it was.
Quote from: 5 Sams on August 03, 2013, 11:34:40 PM
Pure gold for RTE. the whole country will be tuning in to see what Joe says next.
I was at the match but had 4 different texts on it straight after it happened. It was up on YouTube in no time.
...and remember that Joe was a forward and not the most rombustious of players himsef - so he obv has a pet hate of forwards being fouled when about to score!!
meanwhile poor old monaghan have been forgotten about for their fantastic season and very game perf today that just fell short.
It was tremendously entertaining, right down to Michael Lyster's school-marmish tut-tutting at the end.
No need to award a penalty necessarily but if there was a straight red involved for a blatant rugby tackle intended to take out a man in a clear goal scoring position it might make cheating c***ts like Cavanagh think twice. PS I would not consider myself a torch carrier for the mushroom pickers.
Quote from: 5 Sams on August 03, 2013, 11:34:40 PM
Pure gold for RTE. the whole country will be tuning in to see what Joe says next.
+1. and he wasn't wrong in what he said either.
It was classic stuff.
Quote from: Zulu on August 03, 2013, 11:40:45 PM
The problem with awarding a penalty for fouling in a goal scoring situation is the daftness of referees. We only have to look at the booking of Hughes today to see that a perfectly timed tackle is not only a free but a booking when the ref clearly couldn't adjudge what it was.
I think that was one of those bizarre GAA situations where referees seem to book a player in order to justify the free that they have just given.
Nonsense from Joe. If one of our lads fails to foul in a similar situation tomorrow and we concede a goal he should be whipped off immediately. All the top teams foul when necessary - Kerry are best at it. We are learning under James.
Quote from: Any craic on August 03, 2013, 11:27:04 PM
I have been moved to write a GAA blog after Joe Brolly's outburst on TV today. 'Love him or Hate him', but read him! http://www.jeromequinnmedia.com/-blog/Joe-Brolly---Love-him-or-Hate-him_98 (http://www.jeromequinnmedia.com/-blog/Joe-Brolly---Love-him-or-Hate-him_98)
Excellent writing and good points!
All aboard the anti Joe Brolly bandwagon!
Amidst the passion and the hyperbole, Brolly is absolutely correct. Well done Joe. He is wrong in his attack on Cavanagh but his points that our rules are simply not strong enough to support a game that is evolving at pace is a very good point. We need black cards, we need 13m frees for bad fouls, we need sin bins, we need red cards and then we will have a game that promotes positive play. At the moment we have rules which makes negative play rewarding. Not the players fault, it's the rules fault.
Well done Joe Brolly.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 03, 2013, 09:11:09 PM
Brolly's rant, in amongst the usual deep seated L/Derry chip on both shoulders, puts him back in the media spotlight and focuses attention on him. People will want to read what he now comes out with, newspapers will pay him for his opinions. Job done for Joe Brolly.
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on August 03, 2013, 08:51:45 PM
I don't understand why he hates Tyrone so much? Can any northern lads explain this?
Like many from Doire, they're not terribly fond of Tyrone thanks to their natural inferiority complex. Seeing in the last ten years Tyrone win three Sams, being at the worst the third best team in Ulster in that period and still at the very least being talked about being there or thereabouts in pre-championship talk every year, continue being the kingpin in Ulster at youth level (well, at least up to minor), whereas they are every year in the last decade massively overestimating themselves and had to face up to having a generation of irrelevance. Tyrone learned after the mid 90's that moral victories put no medals in your pocket. Derry teams of early-mid 90's vintage had plenty of cuteness themselves, something their current crop have lost a bit of - had they got a bit more against Cavan they might be now looking forward to playing Kerry in Croke Park tomorrow rather than have Kerry Katona style breakdowns live on national TV or tickling their arse cracks on the internet. ;)
what a twat with the use of L/derry. Typical Tyrone. Yous boys seem to be awful fond of the l/derry thing. No wonder you rub Derry people up wrong . Brolly went over the top tonight but cavanagh is a self centred character, couldn't ever take to him, big moanin bake on him, looks like it needs a big dummy stuck in it
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 04, 2013, 12:13:09 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 03, 2013, 09:11:09 PM
Brolly's rant, in amongst the usual deep seated L/Derry chip on both shoulders, puts him back in the media spotlight and focuses attention on him. People will want to read what he now comes out with, newspapers will pay him for his opinions. Job done for Joe Brolly.
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on August 03, 2013, 08:51:45 PM
I don't understand why he hates Tyrone so much? Can any northern lads explain this?
Like many from Doire, they're not terribly fond of Tyrone thanks to their natural inferiority complex. Seeing in the last ten years Tyrone win three Sams, being at the worst the third best team in Ulster in that period and still at the very least being talked about being there or thereabouts in pre-championship talk every year, continue being the kingpin in Ulster at youth level (well, at least up to minor), whereas they are every year in the last decade massively overestimating themselves and had to face up to having a generation of irrelevance. Tyrone learned after the mid 90's that moral victories put no medals in your pocket. Derry teams of early-mid 90's vintage had plenty of cuteness themselves, something their current crop have lost a bit of - had they got a bit more against Cavan they might be now looking forward to playing Kerry in Croke Park tomorrow rather than have Kerry Katona style breakdowns live on national TV or tickling their arse cracks on the internet. ;)
what a t**t with the use of L/derry. Typical Tyrone. Yous boys seem to be awful fond of the l/derry thing. No wonder you rub Derry people up wrong . Brolly went over the top tonight but cavanagh is a self centred character, couldn't ever take to him, big moanin bake on him, looks like it needs a big dummy stuck in it
Are you Joe Brolly?
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 04, 2013, 12:14:34 AMAre you Joe Brolly?
Joe's a bit more articulate to be fair to him
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 04, 2013, 12:14:34 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 04, 2013, 12:13:09 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 03, 2013, 09:11:09 PM
Brolly's rant, in amongst the usual deep seated L/Derry chip on both shoulders, puts him back in the media spotlight and focuses attention on him. People will want to read what he now comes out with, newspapers will pay him for his opinions. Job done for Joe Brolly.
Quote from: SouthDublinBro on August 03, 2013, 08:51:45 PM
I don't understand why he hates Tyrone so much? Can any northern lads explain this?
Like many from Doire, they're not terribly fond of Tyrone thanks to their natural inferiority complex. Seeing in the last ten years Tyrone win three Sams, being at the worst the third best team in Ulster in that period and still at the very least being talked about being there or thereabouts in pre-championship talk every year, continue being the kingpin in Ulster at youth level (well, at least up to minor), whereas they are every year in the last decade massively overestimating themselves and had to face up to having a generation of irrelevance. Tyrone learned after the mid 90's that moral victories put no medals in your pocket. Derry teams of early-mid 90's vintage had plenty of cuteness themselves, something their current crop have lost a bit of - had they got a bit more against Cavan they might be now looking forward to playing Kerry in Croke Park tomorrow rather than have Kerry Katona style breakdowns live on national TV or tickling their arse cracks on the internet. ;)
what a t**t with the use of L/derry. Typical Tyrone. Yous boys seem to be awful fond of the l/derry thing. No wonder you rub Derry people up wrong . Brolly went over the top tonight but cavanagh is a self centred character, couldn't ever take to him, big moanin bake on him, looks like it needs a big dummy stuck in it
Are you Joe Brolly?
Loved to be a pound behind him!
(https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151344728792255&l=e5cdf911e0)
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 04, 2013, 12:25:48 AM
Sean Cavanagh like all excellent players has faults, but with three All-Ireland medals in his pocket and a player of the year award - more than any player who has worn the Oak leaf jersey, any Derry manager would give their left nut to have him on the county team. It might even help lift them from the irrelevance they are to the Ulster and All-Ireland football championship in the past decade.
Aye he's alright, decent enough but you couldn't look at his big nyamin head all day ;)
Brolly's right in his assessment, but equally Cavanagh did what I would have done, and have done, in similar, albeit less significant circumstances. The fault lies in the rules. The rules for an act such as Cavanagh's should require a red card, but they don't.
Can't wait for a report on the next St. Pat's past pupils' reunion. Better have clear rules in place for that too.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 04, 2013, 12:25:48 AM
Sean Cavanagh like all excellent players has faults, but with three All-Ireland medals in his pocket and a player of the year award - more than any player who has worn the Oak leaf jersey, any Derry manager would give their left nut to have him on the county team. It might even help lift them from the irrelevance they are to the Ulster and All-Ireland football championship in the past decade.
If you had brains you would be dangerous, when we had a team their was no back door, you have won the same number as ourselves through the front door. We can do nothing about the timing of when we had a great team, same as yourselves, only difference the rules about knock out changed to your advantage around the same time as your team was arriving. Bin liner.
I must be mad.
I prefer my players to play honest and win honestly. Gaelic football is a better game when you see diving blocks, dispossessions with near hand tackles, you know, the type of football you were taught as a young lad, lets not kid ourselves that today's game was good to watch. I would say few neutrals enjoyed it. If you honestly feel we saw something inspirational in that game today I would be a bit worried about the game.
I don't blame players for playing to win within the rules but then you must conclude then that the rule book has a major flaw within it. In any sport the rule book changes to encourage honest play. I've been watching NFL for about 10-ish years and in that time they have change the rules to make it fairer, to keep players honest, to encourage core skills almost on a yearly basis. OK they have given the attackers a slight advantage but surely the same should be done with GAA without causing the game to suffer.
I don't mind defensive line ups, but systemic fouling needs to carry more risk for the defender.
So in terms of intent and outcome what is the difference between a wee clip on the heels and dragging the forward down en route to a goal-scoring opportunity??
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 04, 2013, 01:11:48 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on August 04, 2013, 12:32:33 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 04, 2013, 12:25:48 AM
Sean Cavanagh like all excellent players has faults, but with three All-Ireland medals in his pocket and a player of the year award - more than any player who has worn the Oak leaf jersey, any Derry manager would give their left nut to have him on the county team. It might even help lift them from the irrelevance they are to the Ulster and All-Ireland football championship in the past decade.
Aye he's alright, decent enough but you couldn't look at his big nyamin head all day ;)
McIvor making selections based on pin-up looks? Priorities are wrong somewhere! ;D
It's McIver.
I have had 2 personal experiences where Brolly has been the guest speaker at Tyrone events. The 1st was following the All Ireland win in '05 at a Club Tyrone dinner in the Armagh City Hotel. That night Joe tokk cheap and personal attacks at Michaela Harte. His disgustings comments went down like a lead balloon and his was lucky to escape that night without a hiding. In contrast, the other guest speaker, Benny Tierney, went down a treat and had everyone crying with laughter. Joe and Benny showed their class that night, and needless to say, anyone who have heard both men speak will get the jist of what i'm saying.
The next encounter with Joe was at a fundraiser for my club Edendork who had their clubhouse burned down in January '09. That night we had a '95 All Ireland revisited with Mattie McGleenahan, Paddy Russell, Charlie Redmond and Joe Brolly. During the night Sean Cavanagh showed up to lend his support and following a short interview with Mark Sidebottom, Joe couldn't help himself and he went on to take cheap and personal digs at Sean and played to the lowest common denominator.
Tonight Joe used his position once again to take personal jibes at Sean and Tyrone, and once again he showed himself up as someone who lacks class and dignity. RTE need to take a hard look at themselves as this type of punditry is something that belongs to the Jeremy Kyle show.
Do you think Joe is jealous of Sean Cavanagh??
Quote from: thejuice on August 04, 2013, 12:47:50 AM
I must be mad.
I prefer my players to play honest and win honestly. Gaelic football is a better game when you see diving blocks, dispossessions with near hand tackles, you know, the type of football you were taught as a young lad, lets not kid ourselves that today's game was good to watch. I would say few neutrals enjoyed it. If you honestly feel we saw something inspirational in that game today I would be a bit worried about the game.
I don't blame players for playing to win within the rules but then you must conclude then that the rule book has a major flaw within it. In any sport the rule book changes to encourage honest play. I've been watching NFL for about 10-ish years and in that time they have change the rules to make it fairer, to keep players honest, to encourage core skills almost on a yearly basis. OK they have given the attackers a slight advantage but surely the same should be done with GAA without causing the game to suffer.
I don't mind defensive line ups, but systemic fouling needs to carry more risk for the defender.
This makes me laugh coming from a county which introduced systematic fouling to Tyrone in '96. Teams were getting away with it then and they still are today!
So this would have been a black card offence?
Given it's currently a red card offence (Cavanagh obviously deserved the line) isn't that lessening the penalty? I can see the only change being managers telling certain key players to not commit the black card offence in that situation while telling everyone else to have a field day.
Quote from: Syferus on August 04, 2013, 01:28:41 AM
So this would have been a black card offence?
Given it's currently a red card offence (Cavanagh obviously deserved the line) isn't that lessening the penalty? I can see the only change being managers telling certain key players to not commit the black card offence in that situation while telling everyone else to have a field day.
How was it a red card offence?
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 04, 2013, 01:24:15 AM
Quote from: thejuice on August 04, 2013, 12:47:50 AM
I must be mad.
I prefer my players to play honest and win honestly. Gaelic football is a better game when you see diving blocks, dispossessions with near hand tackles, you know, the type of football you were taught as a young lad, lets not kid ourselves that today's game was good to watch. I would say few neutrals enjoyed it. If you honestly feel we saw something inspirational in that game today I would be a bit worried about the game.
I don't blame players for playing to win within the rules but then you must conclude then that the rule book has a major flaw within it. In any sport the rule book changes to encourage honest play. I've been watching NFL for about 10-ish years and in that time they have change the rules to make it fairer, to keep players honest, to encourage core skills almost on a yearly basis. OK they have given the attackers a slight advantage but surely the same should be done with GAA without causing the game to suffer.
I don't mind defensive line ups, but systemic fouling needs to carry more risk for the defender.
This makes me laugh coming from a county which introduced systematic fouling to Tyrone in '96. Teams were getting away with it then and they still are today!
Meath beat the shite out of Tyrone. There was nothing systematic about it!
Make all the criticism of Meath all you want, I'm under no illusions at all about the conduct of some of our players. Try not to think of this purely as a Tyrone fan. Any sport should have rules that encourage honest play. Think of what's good for the game. That's the important issue.
As a spectacle, as a sporting feat, you tell me which is better, to
a) drag a goal side attacker to the ground
or.
b) Sean dived in and knock the ball cleanly away at the last second
Which scenario makes for better, fairer sport? Which be should be encouraged by the rules? Tell me.
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 04, 2013, 01:33:14 AM
Quote from: Syferus on August 04, 2013, 01:28:41 AM
So this would have been a black card offence?
Given it's currently a red card offence (Cavanagh obviously deserved the line) isn't that lessening the penalty? I can see the only change being managers telling certain key players to not commit the black card offence in that situation while telling everyone else to have a field day.
How was it a red card offence?
How on earth isn't cynically fouling a player that's through on goal a red card offence? It's absolutely indefensible, referees at every level should be very expectedly told to send off players committing that particular type of foul. A red card alone is not enough to stop it happening match-losing situations but it'd do a damn sight better job than handing out yellow cards.
To be honest, I think the referee chickened out with Cavanagh because he'd already sent two players off and because he knew sending off Cavanagh would have completely turned the game in Monaghan's favour. In all the Brolly talk it's getting lost that the referee had an incredibly poor outing.
Quote from: Syferus on August 04, 2013, 01:28:41 AM
So this would have been a black card offence?
Given it's currently a red card offence (Cavanagh obviously deserved the line) isn't that lessening the penalty? I can see the only change being managers telling certain key players to not commit the black card offence in that situation while telling everyone else to have a field day.
How is it currently a red card offence? Under what current rule should cavanagh been sent off?
Quote from: Syferus on August 04, 2013, 01:39:28 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 04, 2013, 01:33:14 AM
Quote from: Syferus on August 04, 2013, 01:28:41 AM
So this would have been a black card offence?
Given it's currently a red card offence (Cavanagh obviously deserved the line) isn't that lessening the penalty? I can see the only change being managers telling certain key players to not commit the black card offence in that situation while telling everyone else to have a field day.
How was it a red card offence?
How on earth isn't cynically fouling a player that's through on goal a red card offence? It's absolutely indefensible, referees at every level should be very expectedly told to send off players committing that particular type of foul. A red card alone is not enough to stop it happening match-losing situations but it'd do a damn sight better job than handing out yellow cards.
To be honest, I think the referee chickened out with Cavanagh because he'd already sent two players off and because he knew sending off Cavanagh would have completely turned the game in Monaghan's favour. In all the Brolly talk it's getting lost that the referee had an incredibly poor outing.
Yes you can argue that it should be but its not!
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on August 04, 2013, 01:40:04 AM
Quote from: Syferus on August 04, 2013, 01:28:41 AM
So this would have been a black card offence?
Given it's currently a red card offence (Cavanagh obviously deserved the line) isn't that lessening the penalty? I can see the only change being managers telling certain key players to not commit the black card offence in that situation while telling everyone else to have a field day.
How is it currently a red card offence? Under what current rule should cavanagh been sent off?
Are you about to regurgitate the old rule-book excuse?
Common sense dictates that should be a sending off offence and everyone knew Cavanagh was in danger of that happening when he committed it. The commentators knew it, I'm sure just about every Tyrone supporter in Croke Park knew it. I doubt anyone would have argued against it were he given the line. The fact it's even possible for a referee to give anything but a red card in that situation is a total and utter joke.
It's the easiest way to make it as unattractive an option as possible so why referees have any discretion in this situation is beyond me. We hear all this bleating about cynical fouling and the grand daddy of all cynical fouls isn't even a no-brainer red card offence. Amazing.
Quote from: Syferus on August 04, 2013, 01:52:14 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on August 04, 2013, 01:40:04 AM
Quote from: Syferus on August 04, 2013, 01:28:41 AM
So this would have been a black card offence?
Given it's currently a red card offence (Cavanagh obviously deserved the line) isn't that lessening the penalty? I can see the only change being managers telling certain key players to not commit the black card offence in that situation while telling everyone else to have a field day.
How is it currently a red card offence? Under what current rule should cavanagh been sent off?
Are you about to regurgitate the old rule-book excuse?
Common sense dictates that should be a sending off offence and everyone knew Cavanagh was in danger of that happening when he committed it. The commentators knew it, I'm sure just about every Tyrone supporter in Croke Park knew it. I doubt anyone would have argued against it were he given the line. The fact it's even possible for a referee to give anything but a red card in that situation is a total and utter joke.
Damn straight. God forbid anyone should bring the rules into a question of who should be sent off for what.
RTE are at an all time low and this circus clown is just adding to it,should get shot of him straight away.He cannot be allowed away with this.Cavanagh gave 2 wonderful performance and all they highlight are tackles he made
Quote from: ardtole on August 03, 2013, 10:23:36 PM
I was listening to the newstalk interview live and Cavanagh came across very well, Darragh Ose, David Brady and Colm Parkinson all agreed with him. He spoke honestly and truthfully, at this stage Brolly has got tiresome. I used to enjoy reading his newspaper columns and his analysis on rte but this last two years or eighteen months he is getting very childish and pompous. The sunday game could do with a complete overhaul in my opinion.
Imho Cavanagh came across very well in that interview.
Some amount of Tyrone people giving out about Brolly tonight. My feelings are that he really lost the run of himself today just like he did when he criticised Paul Grimley earlier in the season. On both occasions the crux of his argument was correct. His delivery was lacking though. Maybe instead of Michael Lyster presenting the show a high court judge could do the job!
For those who say 100% of players would do the same as Cavanagh I would point out that Armagh, and Tony Kernan in particular, let Cain Mackey run 40 yards to score a goal for Cavan with no effort to take him out. Armagh lost that match. Tyrone won today. There is cynical tackling in the game because as the rules stand it pays.
No problem with what Cavanagh did. He knew it would cost him a yellow, and it was worth it. Rugby has a penalty try for certain infractions; basketball has an automatic basket for certain other infractions; maybe football should bring in an automatic goal for that kind of foul, if we're serious about stamping it out.
this sh1te of selectively picking out incidents isnt doing anyone any favors. if we look over an entire game there a a multitude of occurrences which could impact the final outcome. some happen to occur in the first minute, others in the last minute.
whether its a card given or not given, a pull, a drag, a wide called a score, a score called a wide.
as it is, play to the rule book. if the rule book dictated that was a yellow, then the referee made the right call.
look at Tadgh Kennellys elbow against the Cork player in the first 3 seconds of the final a few years ago. Look at Cillian O Connor getting pulled and dragged in the first few minutes of last years final.no free given-Donegal go down and bang in a goal-game over. What about Joe Sheridans "goal" against Louth and the square bAll that preceded it.
Football is played real time-no time outs, no reviews, no instant replay. If we want every call made by the eye in the sky so be it, because at the end of the day every single call, or missed cll can impact the lutcome pf a game
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on August 04, 2013, 02:34:43 AM
No problem with what Cavanagh did. He knew it would cost him a yellow, and it was worth it. Rugby has a penalty try for certain infractions; basketball has an automatic basket for certain other infractions; maybe football should bring in an automatic goal for that kind of foul, if we're serious about stamping it out.
Good post
Brolly is a tube and always has been, a yellow-streaked cowardly bastard on the pitch who was fond of blowing kisses to Tyrone people after a much better player had put a goal on a plate for him. His hatred drips outta him any time he gives his 'expert' opinion on Tyrone games. RTE is supposed to ensure parity and fairness, but it doesn't
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on August 04, 2013, 02:48:39 AM
Quote from: 5 Sams on August 03, 2013, 11:34:40 PM
Pure gold for RTE. the whole country will be tuning in to see what Joe says next.
Spot on. In some respects I'd think it was almost scripted. Mind you Tyrone are a shower of you know whats bur I take comfort from the fact that their progress in this years Championship is doing nothing more than incurring additional expenditure on their hateful shower of supporters so the further they go before being turned over the better. By the way Brolly was spot on.
Your namesake is a rocket scientist compared to you
I think Mark Sidebottom summed up RTE's whole position over the last few weeks/months/years when he said during the commentary
"When you have nowhere to go call for Joe"
Says it all really..........
There's nothing like coming home with a few in you and winding up the Tyronies. Fact is you know I'm right and you'll have a long hungry winter to reflect on what I said.
Quote from: Syferus on August 04, 2013, 01:28:41 AMGiven it's currently a red card offence
Quote5.14 To pull down an opponent.
PENALTY FOR THE ABOVE FOULS -
(i) Caution the offender; order off for second cautionable foul.
(ii) Free kick from where the foul occurred except as provided under Exceptions of Rule 2.2.
Quote from: EC Unique on August 03, 2013, 10:57:33 PM
Joe Brolly comes out of this looking like a bitter little fool that more and more people are catching on to where as Sean Cavanagh comes out dripping with class both on the field and in his interview. One bookable tackle can not take away from his class. Joe needs to think about lowering his alcahol intake.
You've posted some sh1t on this board in the past, including the Rick Astley video which brought with it a virus which corrupted many PCs but this takes the biscuit. Brolly - straight guy, Cavanagh - Hail fellow well met
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 04, 2013, 03:13:37 AM
Quote from: Throw ball on August 04, 2013, 02:29:05 AM
Some amount of Tyrone people giving out about Brolly tonight. My feelings are that he really lost the run of himself today just like he did when he criticised Paul Grimley earlier in the season. On both occasions the crux of his argument was correct. His delivery was lacking though. Maybe instead of Michael Lyster presenting the show a high court judge could do the job!
For those who say 100% of players would do the same as Cavanagh I would point out that Armagh, and Tony Kernan in particular, let Cain Mackey run 40 yards to score a goal for Cavan with no effort to take him out. Armagh lost that match. Tyrone won today. There is cynical tackling in the game because as the rules stand it pays.
Looking at it Brolly's meltdown on national TV has a lot of similarities with Jim McGuinness' interview last weekend (and by association later on Rory Gallagher's comments) in that both did have a valid point what they were trying to point out as to what they feel is wrong in the current nature of football. But it gets all lost in among making emotional plays, using selective evidence, none too subtle agendas, hypocrisy and delving into conspiracies that they have no hope of proving that what comes out in the end heavily detracts from any point they're making, assuming that the point was genuine in the first place.
Agree with this. Just watched the Youtube clip there and couldn't believe how worked up he was (or seemed to be). The point behind his argument was valid in my opinion, but he lost all credibility when talking about Sean Cavanagh 'forget about Sean Cavanagh as far as he is a man'.
The finger pointing at Spillane and O'Rourke, the 'Hold on' every time Michael Lyster interjected and the shouting over everybody elses points were childish and unprofessional in the extreme.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on August 04, 2013, 03:16:13 AM
There's nothing like coming home with a few in you and winding up the Tyronies. Fact is you know I'm right and you'll have a long hungry winter to reflect on what I said.
says a lot about the quality of your life
What would Joe say about some of these tackles today in Croke Park?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twR17Xu-0Ek&feature=youtu.be
Quote from: give her dixie on August 04, 2013, 04:42:37 AM
What would Joe say about some of these tackles today in Croke Park?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twR17Xu-0Ek&feature=youtu.be
Either (a) rabbit on about a 5cm muscle tear, or (b) make up some crap about a bite.
Nearly forgot. Deadly clip all the same!
I actually liked Brollys outburst, it showed genuine passion.
GAA folk are far too watery and conservative , gtf if youre offended , tis about time people told it how it is. The rules need changing and Brolly is doing a mighty job in highlighting that.
Tyrone are the most ugly horrible team around , thank gawd Mayo will batter them.
The problem that I have with Joe now is that a lot of his analysis has become extremely personal.
I have no problem with him questioning the cynical aspects of the game (although I hope he does it for every team involved) - however I am not liking the personal aspects of things
His attack on Paul Grimley and his two brothers (they had nothing to do with the game in question at that time)
His attack on Cavanagh saying that he is not a man etc
These are personal attacks that are not needed. They may be entertaining and sensational but at the end of the day, these lads are amateur players/ volunteers who's charachter should not be up for discussion.
Big Teddy will be spitting.
I'd love to see that "meeting".
I think Brolly was right in what he said, I think Cavanagh was also correct in fouling, I also feel the ref could have issued a red card for the incident....based on dangerous play.
Bottom line Tyrone are in the semi-final, job done.
Whether Joe was right or not, why did he "lose it" in the fashion that he did ?
You'd swear Sean Kavanagh had committed a capital offence ?.
Scullion, mc Keever, Downey. Mc Gurk, MC Gilligan, Barton etc were just tough, hard men but would have took your head off your shoulders but credit to them, they'd never have pulled your jersey.
Quote from: thejuice on August 04, 2013, 12:47:50 AM
I must be mad.
I prefer my players to play honest and win honestly. Gaelic football is a better game when you see diving blocks, dispossessions with near hand tackles, you know, the type of football you were taught as a young lad, lets not kid ourselves that today's game was good to watch. I would say few neutrals enjoyed it. If you honestly feel we saw something inspirational in that game today I would be a bit worried about the game.
I don't blame players for playing to win within the rules but then you must conclude then that the rule book has a major flaw within it. In any sport the rule book changes to encourage honest play. I've been watching NFL for about 10-ish years and in that time they have change the rules to make it fairer, to keep players honest, to encourage core skills almost on a yearly basis. OK they have given the attackers a slight advantage but surely the same should be done with GAA without causing the game to suffer.
I don't mind defensive line ups, but systemic fouling needs to carry more risk for the defender.
Nice teams don't win anything just ask us in Mayo .However when we eventually learned that we had to change our attitude and the way to play the modern game you had Joe pointing out what a dirty cynical team we had become a couple of days before the Ai Final.
I want nothing to do with that.
Joe championed Donegal last year.
Donegal were very cynical, Murphy and co smashing lads in the build up.
Something just doesn't add up here. Have Tyrone offended Joe in some unexplained way or is Joe preferring to be a winner safe in the knowledge that Tyrone are not going to win the all Ireland and be proved right again.
One thing Joe is - he's a smart lad.
Oh dear; when will we learn that rules and common sense are two different things. If they were, we would have fewer economic problems for a start (eg common sense says we should redirect profits from the banking sector into the health service. The rules say we cannot and that bonus payments must still be awarded).
With regard to football, we all have to wait until next year when Sean's tackle will be met with a black card and, given the time of the offence, will probably result in his not being replaced. I counted no fewer than 11 instances yesterday where a passer's supporting run was blocked by an opponent. Next year that number will drop dramatically. We can complain all we want; fact is, the tackle could not be punished under the rules with a red card.
Quote from: Mrs mills on August 04, 2013, 08:20:19 AM
Oh dear; when will we learn that rules and common sense are two different things. If they were, we would have fewer economic problems for a start (eg common sense says we should redirect profits from the banking sector into the health service. The rules say we cannot and that bonus payments must still be awarded).
With regard to football, we all have wait until next year when Sean's tackle will be met with a black card and, given the time of the offence, will probably result in his not being replaced. I counted no fewer than 11 instances yesterday where a passer's supporting run was blocked by an opponent. Next year that number will drop dramatically. We can complain all we want; fact is, the tackle could not be punished under the rules with a red card.
Out of the 11 times, how many checks were by Monaghan and how many by Tyrone out of curiosity ?
7 to 4 in favour of Tyrone.
I agree with Brolleys general point on "professional" fouls. I don't agree with his personal attacks on one team and one player. Every team and every player worth his salt would do the same.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on August 04, 2013, 04:11:55 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 03, 2013, 10:57:33 PM
Joe Brolly comes out of this looking like a bitter little fool that more and more people are catching on to where as Sean Cavanagh comes out dripping with class both on the field and in his interview. One bookable tackle can not take away from his class. Joe needs to think about lowering his alcohol intake.
You've posted some sh1t on this board in the past, including the Rick Astley video which brought with it a virus which corrupted many PCs but this takes the biscuit. Brolly - straight guy, Cavanagh - Hail fellow well met
Get a breathalyser fitted on your computer you clown. A bit like Joe I doubt.... Bit too fond of a wee sup for your own good!
Quote from: EC Unique on August 04, 2013, 08:38:30 AM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on August 04, 2013, 04:11:55 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 03, 2013, 10:57:33 PM
Joe Brolly comes out of this looking like a bitter little fool that more and more people are catching on to where as Sean Cavanagh comes out dripping with class both on the field and in his interview. One bookable tackle can not take away from his class. Joe needs to think about lowering his alcohol intake.
You've posted some sh1t on this board in the past, including the Rick Astley video which brought with it a virus which corrupted many PCs but this takes the biscuit. Brolly - straight guy, Cavanagh - Hail fellow well met
Get a breathalyser fitted on your computer you clown. A bit like Joe I doubt.... Bit too fond of a wee sup for your own good!
Priceless from a man who not all that long ago put up a post about Willie Fraser that was beyond anything that even Ruth Patterson would put up
Brolly is an Eamonn Dunphy wannabe,who craves the limelight (I suspect also that this craving is behind his organ donorship campaign, and does his legal career no harm either ),impassioned to the extreme on this occasion by the fact that he has a first cousin on the Monaghan team.
Tony your full of shit with the donor thing!!
Am I? Does it not get him the media coverage and high profile he craves?
Nobody would give a kidney for that, he was high profile enough on rte,
I am not so sure.Doesn't strike me as a person who has a genuine concern for anyone.
Very surprising how he lost the rag. You would expect a boy who is in court would be able to keep himself calm. He really did lose the plot.
The personal attacks joe has made this year have been ridiculous. Him and spillane shouldn't be allowed on tv to be honest. Credit to sean cavanagh for his interview and showing joe how to actually keep your composure.
Tony he is a prat on tv but he did his best to save that guy's life -you couldn't fault the man for that.
The tv thing yesterday was merely a video of his advocacy skills. Funny the amount of well known unionists praising his passion ( including a former DUP Lord Mayor of Belfast) on twitter this morning.Now are they aware of him due to GAA or organ donation?
Things are tight in the legal profession currently (as they are everywhere else) so a little bit of profile raising does no harm.
Quote from: T Fearon on August 04, 2013, 09:24:45 AM
I am not so sure.Doesn't strike me as a person who has a genuine concern for anyone.
Interesting observation Tony, Narcissistic Personality Disorder is what Joe Brolly could have, it would be a wide spectrum but when you look at the symptoms he certainly ticks a lot of the boxes..
Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a true mental diagnosis for people who need admiration, lack empathy and have a grandiose sense of their self-importance.
It is called a pervasive pattern of grandiosity in fantasy and behavior, and usually begins by early adulthood and it presents itself in a variety of symptoms. To achieve this diagnosis, a person presents five or more of the following:
(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people or institutions
(4) requires excessive admiration
(5) has a sense of entitlement--unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
(6) is interpersonally exploitative--takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 04, 2013, 09:27:54 AM
Very surprising how he lost the rag. You would expect a boy who is in court would be able to keep himself calm. He really did lose the plot.
The personal attacks joe has made this year have been ridiculous. Him and spillane shouldn't be allowed on tv to be honest. Credit to sean cavanagh for his interview and showing joe how to actually keep your composure.
Tony he is a prat on tv but he did his best to save that guy's life -you couldn't fault the man for that.
He didn't lose the rag, it was fake anger for effect. The man knew exactly what he was doing....... and it involved getting as much publicity as possible!
The more I think of Tonys point, the more I think he may be correct!
Quote from: T Fearon on August 04, 2013, 09:08:22 AM
Brolly is an Eamonn Dunphy wannabe,who craves the limelight (I suspect also that this craving is behind his organ donorship campaign, and does his legal career no harm either ),impassioned to the extreme on this occasion by the fact that he has a first cousin on the Monaghan team.
Priceless, coming from the biggest attention seeker on the Board.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 03, 2013, 11:43:41 PM
...and remember that Joe was a forward and not the most rombustious of players himsef - so he obv has a pet hate of forwards being fouled when about to score!!
meanwhile poor old monaghan have been forgotten about for their fantastic season and very game perf today that just fell short.
We're not too worried, we finish the season with promotion, a Division 3 title and an the Anglo Celt. I'd take the Anglo Celt over a semi-final via the back door any day of the week. All in all, a good season.
RTÉ couldn't buy this publicity. Currently trending on Twitter - #SaturdayGame, Joe Brolly, #GAA, Sean Cavanagh, Tyrone
Joe is going nowhere. No doubt those posters disgusted with his comments will vote with their remotes and watch the remaining games on BBC (where shown).
Quote from: macdanger2 on August 03, 2013, 10:49:04 PM
Didn't listen to it this evening but himself and O'Rourke (although he seems to have tempered it in recent times) are complete clowns – I remember watching an Offaly v Kildare (I think?) game 7-8 years ago and Ciaran McManus was having a shocker, must have blazed 5-6 balls wide in the first half after steaming through the middle. O'Rourke and Brolly basically highlighted these in a sequence and were having a bit of a skit about McManus not being able to shoot straight. Considering it's an amateur game and the amount of service he gave to Offaly football (during what wouldn't have been great years), it was completely uncalled for.
Both of them were great players in their time but they're complete gobsh*tes and neither has ever put himself forward to actually manage a team.
Please get your facts right before posting. O Rourke coaches the St Pats sent team every 2nd year and takes the 1st years the year in between. He has also managed the Simonstown senior team. And don't forget that he managed the International Rules team.
With Mark Sidebottom, dont think so
Tony doing his addition of two and two and coming up with the wrong answer (see his comments about the subservient paedophile protector Sean Brady ..he can't get the answer to that one either)
Whilst even Joe Brolley I'm sure would admit his heightened sense of ego, it some stretch to think that that was a driver in his decision to donate one of his major organs to one of his friends/fellow juvenile mentor who was struggling with a life threatening condition.
Not too many celebs or fearons donating organs.
Has anybody took on board the emotional aspects of the possible effects that organ donation can have on someones overall mental well being ......................... physically Joe does not look as well as he has done and emotionally he is not holding it together .................................................. he had a very good point though.............................Mickey Harte has alot to answer for and has hid from the media for a long time now to suit oneself, he sends his troops out to feign injury and generally act like thugs, a good team no doubt but they will fall on ones sword shortly.............Conor Gormley is an absolute kn**ker
from the indo
The Tyrone manager also admitted that he was unsure whether or not the red card handed to Martin Penrose by referee Cormac Reilly for his clash with Dessie Mone as the teams left the field for the half-time break was deserved.
"I wasn't close enough to see it, but thinking that Martin Penrose would be involved in something of that nature would be very unlike him. I'll have to see the pictures to find out if it merited a red card or not. I really can't say as I wasn't close enough but when we get the benefit of television footage we will be able to tell if it was a good red card or not."
More crap from Harte........Panrose is like rory gallagher a little sly divil................and who else threw a solid in that mess at half time, Gormley
What does brolly bring to the table. in his day job as a servant of the queens courts he makes up and wins arguments. He knows he can create and will win any argument he wants. He also was as yellow a man on a field as you could pay into watch.
Quote from: sam03/05 on August 04, 2013, 07:19:54 AM
The problem that I have with Joe now is that a lot of his analysis has become extremely personal.
I have no problem with him questioning the cynical aspects of the game (although I hope he does it for every team involved) - however I am not liking the personal aspects of things
His attack on Paul Grimley and his two brothers (they had nothing to do with the game in question at that time)
His attack on Cavanagh saying that he is not a man etc
These are personal attacks that are not needed. They may be entertaining and sensational but at the end of the day, these lads are amateur players/ volunteers who's charachter should not be up for discussion.
I kinda go along with all of that. I don't mind objective analysis at any time and if the analyst disagrees with me, I hold he should be entitled to his view. Joe has crossed the line and did so years ago.
Last time Monaghan appeared in an Ulster final, Tommy Freeman played with a heavily bandaged hand. He had driven a nail through it some days before and Joe found this to be extremely funny. The idea of Monaghan's chief marksman being so awkward struck Brolly as hilarious and he kept harking on this throughout his analysis.
O'Rourke and Lyster (I think) never responded to his 'witticisms' or brought up the subject and I felt they were rightfully embarrassed.
In his post mortem on last year's final, he took an almighty swipe at Alan Dillon.
Dillon he reckoned was a stereotype Mayo forward; lacking in moral fibre and hiding when the going got tough. Joe really went into detail in the Derry Journal, devoting two paragraphs to his attack on Dillon's character.
Yet O'Rourke in his take on the same game complimented Dillon on the way he took the game to Donegal in Mayo's first half fight back. Both couldn't be right and while it's only natural that I'd side with the Meath man, the fact is that no other journalist of note saw things from Brolly's perspective.
The attack on the Tyrone man character was unjustified. But what he did was unacceptable.
E saw an example of cynical fouling at its worst but very few players in his position would do otherwise. That's no consolation to Monaghan folk is it?
Cavanagh singlehandedly made the case for the introduction of the black card.
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 04, 2013, 09:40:41 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on August 04, 2013, 09:08:22 AM
Brolly is an Eamonn Dunphy wannabe,who craves the limelight (I suspect also that this craving is behind his organ donorship campaign, and does his legal career no harm either ),impassioned to the extreme on this occasion by the fact that he has a first cousin on the Monaghan team.
Priceless, coming from the biggest attention seeker on the Board.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Having sifted through this thread I see no mention of Joe's and Mickey Harte's petty feud (read their newspaper articles) which has been going on over the last 18 months or so.
This is simply a continuation.
All the keyboard warriors on here criticising Joe Brolly's comments, yet at the same time happy to fire all sorts of abuse at him under the anonymity of an internet username.
What happened yesterday was just the latest in Tyrone's systematic policy of cynical/tactical fouling.
Against Dublin in the league final every time McCaffrey or McCarthy tried to start attacks from defence they would be "Sean Cavanaghed" to the ground rugby style. This was not towards the end of the game but regular feature of the second half.
One simple way to stop the constant fouling would be to introduce suspensions for accumulating "x" amount of yellow cards during league/championship.
Mickey Harte would have to change his tactics if he was missing 3/4 players suspended for a all ireland semi final due to yellow cards picked for their cynical fouling.
Worth having a look at Joe's twitter feed. @joebrolly1993
There's a few headers on calling him all the w**kers of the day. Some of his responses are v good. :) :)
He's having a real tete a tete with Philip Jordan as well. Keep er lit Joe ;D
A lot of Tyrone posters critical of Brolly and those who agree with his core argument. What they should do is take the blinkers of, realise that most teams to the same, and realise that for the good of the game this kind of thing needs to stop.
1)Any player worth his salt would have done the same as Sean Cavanagh yesterday.
2)Joe Brolly is a absolute nutcase.
3)Sean Cavanagh is a class footballer.
4)You couldn't like Sean Cavanagh if you rared him, he is a horrible cheating ****, always has been, and always will be.
Quote from: Keepthefaith93 on August 04, 2013, 11:19:29 AM
1)Any player worth his salt would have done the same as Sean Cavanagh yesterday.
2)Joe Brolly is a absolute nutcase.
3)Sean Cavanagh is a class footballer.
4)You couldn't like Sean Cavanagh if you rared him, he is a horrible cheating ****, always has been, and always will be.
At least Joe publicly declares his opinion. You are a cowardly man hiding behind a pseudonym giving out abuse. Put your real name to that or say it to SC's face. I wouldn't hold my breath.
Quote from: omagh_gael on August 04, 2013, 11:30:35 AM
Quote from: Keepthefaith93 on August 04, 2013, 11:19:29 AM
1)Any player worth his salt would have done the same as Sean Cavanagh yesterday.
2)Joe Brolly is a absolute nutcase.
3)Sean Cavanagh is a class footballer.
4)You couldn't like Sean Cavanagh if you rared him, he is a horrible cheating ****, always has been, and always will be.
At least Joe publicly declares his opinion. You are a cowardly man hiding behind a pseudonym giving out abuse. Put your real name to that or say it to SC's face. I wouldn't hold my breath.
Mon now, that would take the fun out of it surely. But im enjoying the sly Tyrone digs hinting at drink, working for the queens court, lderry, londonderry etc and you boys from the occupied 6!
Just watched it again. Absolutely brilliant television...
Quote from: 5 Sams on August 04, 2013, 11:44:16 AM
Just watched it again. Absolutely brilliant television...
Unreal. My favourite part is Michael Lyster saying to Joe, 'no hold on yourself'. Classic!!
Quote from: Zulu on August 03, 2013, 11:18:49 PM
Quote from: deiseach on August 03, 2013, 10:56:10 PM
Quote from: Zulu on August 03, 2013, 10:36:57 PM
The same reason Kevin Moran would haul down a Kilkenny hurler going through on goal or most other players for that matter. I'm as much against rank cynicism as anyone but lets not kid ourselves we would all, as players, pull a guy down going for goal late in the game or look for a player to do it if we were coaches or fans. It's the rules and the cynical fouling further out that are the problem I think.
The comparison with hurling is pointless (no pun intended) because fouls in hurling outside the small rectangle to prevent goals still carry a heavy potential for a goal so the punishment can fit the crime, whereas it's practically impossible to score a goal in football if the opposition can put any amount of players between you and the goal. I saw plenty of incidents in the second game tonight where players had gilt-edged chances for goals yet I didn't see one player get chopped down as he was about to pull the trigger*. This is because most players do not go out to foul their opponent and saying over and over again that they do does not make it true. Now, whether Brolly is correct that Tyrone are sending out teams with instructions to immediately take out a player before making an honest attempt to win the ball, I don't know. It's entirely possible that Brolly has conjured up an idea and is ramming the facts into place that fit his prejudice. He was banging on about Tyrone closing out the game against Kildare two weeks ago by fouling which seemed dubious to me at the time, so I was inclined to think that he was employing the QC tactic of only focusing on incidents that supported his case and ignoring those that don't. Listening to Sean Kavanagh though, it bolsters Brolly's case.
*Perhaps in each case the back knew the forward would miss :P
The point re hurling is that players would foul to prevent a goal as did Cavanagh. Yes, there were other goal chances today but I'm not sure there were any straight on goal with the game in the balance as was the case with Cananagh and while not everyone might have fouled then I'm sure every player would have wised he did on looking back at it in either code.
What did Shane O'Neill do to Colm Fennelly there against Kilkenny last week? I can't believe some people are thinking that this does not go on, and would not go on, all the time. How many times have you heard 'take him down' or 'foul him there!'?
To be honest I call that desperation, not cynicism per se. The cynicism I would like to eradicate from the game happens 60 yards from the opposition goal and is systematically carried out by teams who lose the ball. Their forwards (not backs at all most of the time) drag down the opponent to stop the quick counter, and allow themselves to get set up.
I think in the situation like yesterday, there's a high likelihood that Cavanagh would have done the same thing no matter the penalty. And to be honest I'd be shocked if he didn't. I know in Kerry, the feeling was that if Declan O'Sullivan hadn't been concussed in that fateful moment in the last minutes against Dublin, he'd have hauled down Kevin McMenamon before the goal, and Kerry would have won that All Ireland.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on August 04, 2013, 11:53:48 AM
Quote from: 5 Sams on August 04, 2013, 11:44:16 AM
Just watched it again. Absolutely brilliant television...
Unreal. My favourite part is Michael Lyster saying to Joe, 'no hold on yourself'. Classic!!
...or. Spillane and O'Rourke trying to stop themselves laughing at the end when Michael gives out to Joe.
Has anyone got a link to the actual tackle by Cavanagh??
What I can't understand in all this is that if Joe is so passionate about the problem within the rule book, why alter the terms of the debate by personalising the issue in a manner that so many people are likely to find distasteful? Whatever else you can say about him, he's clearly an intelligent man and if he choose to direct his rant about the way the rules encouraged Seán Cavanagh to do this and how that clearly needs adjustment, people would listen. However by going as far as he did, he's made the whole thing personal and we're not talking about the rule book as much. I can't fathom why Joe would want this.
In my own view, I'm torn. I find it hard to blame Cavanagh in one sense - what he did saved his team two points, and his team won by two points. It was a purely logical act - he committed the foul and he took the maximum sanction that the referee was allowed to give. However taking this same line of thinking to other situations, a horrible vista appears. For example, we've seen in the last two games by the Cork hurlers that Pat Horgan is clearly worth five or six points per game to them. I know from experience as a bookie that on average, a red card is worth between two and three points to the team with the numerical advantage. By that logic a weak Dublin player could line out in the AI semi, deliberately take Pat Horgan out of the game with an aggressive foul in the first minute, take his red card and Dublin would be better off. It's completely the same principle, and all the defences been used for Cavanagh could still apply, with the exception of the completely made up "X% of guys would do the same". It would be a different X.
You can't always legislate for every situation and there will always be an element of grey area in the rule book where certain fouls might pay off for the offenders. It's always been that way - some of the stuff that defenders used to get up to in the 70s and 80s was downright repulsive when viewed in today's light - but we were conditioned to think that it was just the way the game was and that it was more "manly" - which is garbage. Ultimately you have to depend on players to know where the line is between acceptable and unacceptable, and I don't like Seán Cavanagh's idea that players will always go as far as the rule book permits.
I think he might see it differently if Mayo/Donegal lined out against him in the semi-final and knocked four teeth out of his head in the first minute to take Tyrone's best player out of the game. The principle would be exactly the same, and that's a question that I'd love to hear him answer.
You think delberately taking a player out of the game by injuring him badly or intentionally is the same thing as fouling a lad straight through on goal, because in principle it is the same thing?
Logically I can see the correlation, in that it theoretically translates into an advantage on the scoreboard, statiscally, but I have to say that comparing them is disinegenous.
At any level, in any game, a defender coming back will try any desperate tactic to prevent a goal. I've seen hurleys thrown, attempted hand trips, attempted foot trips, high tackles, low tackles everything, all in desperate, illegal, attempts to prevent the goal. Sometimes they succeed and are dealt with by the ref and the laws of the game, just like Shane O'Neill last week. (Although he probably should have seen red for the strike, instead of yellow for the 'cynical foul' which is what Cavangh got).
Sometimes they don't succeed and the lad scores the goal.
God knows I hate the systematic and systemic fouling which has crept into the game, particularly those non-obvious fouls like the ones higlighted by mrs mills above, and also the drag back, drag down fouls by forwards to stop an attack.
In the case of what Cavanagh has done though, it is something that I do genuinely believe most players would do. (Remember Cluxton versus ourselves in 2006). The rules may not punish it enough for our tastes, I wouldn't argue with that, but I also believe that if Cavanagh was going to be sent off for that yesterday, he'd still have done it.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on August 04, 2013, 11:58:35 AM
Has anyone got a link to the actual tackle by Cavanagh??
(http://ballsdot.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/seancavanaghrugbytackle.gif)
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 04, 2013, 12:12:45 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on August 04, 2013, 11:58:35 AM
Has anyone got a link to the actual tackle by Cavanagh??
(http://ballsdot.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/seancavanaghrugbytackle.gif)
Cheers!
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41698000/jpg/_41698554_3derry.jpg)
Joe had no problems celebrating in 2006 when Derry beat Tyrone in Omagh. If you watch the game you will see some of the most cynical tackles and play of the previous 15 years. The Tyrone players were simply not allowed to play, and Sean Cavanagh was pulled to the ground at every sign of danger.
Joe was dancing in the stands afterwards and had no problems with the Derry style of play, which at the end of the day won them the game.
Maybe Joe should go back and have a look at that game and his comments about it afterwards before he launches another personal attack.
The Kennelly tackle is the perfect example, though admittedly it worked out all the better for Kerry because he didn't actually get sent off for it. Foul play can pay off.
Neither am I saying there is no difference between what Cavanagh did and a tackle that would do serious injury to a player. Of course there is a difference in scale - however both offences are clearly wrong, yet for some arbitrary reason we've decided that a line exists somewhere between the two.
However we can say clearly that in both instances, the offending team are the ones to benefit even when the perpetrator is given the maximum sanction available. Both instances are clearly wrong on an ethical level. The scale is the only thing at issue and I would suggest that any one of that Monaghan team would happily take a broken bone this morning if they were in an All Ireland semi-final. What Cavanagh did hurt them more than any punch he could have thrown.
Fionntamhnach, I understand why you call that cynicism, but I see them as two different things. When a lad is dragged down out the field, in a calculated, planned manner, to disrupt mounting attacks, or to allow the defending team get into position as per the game plan, I call that real cynicism.
When a fella is trying his best to prevent a goal, fair means or foul with a last ditch tackle, I call that desperation.
I agree that we probably don't have adequate provision in the rule book to deal with it, but I think it is a different situation to the stuff that pisses me off.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 04, 2013, 12:22:29 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 04, 2013, 12:09:54 PMIn the case of what Cavanagh has done though, it is something that I do genuinely believe most players would do. (Remember Cluxton versus ourselves in 2006). The rules may not punish it enough for our tastes, I wouldn't argue with that, but I also believe that if Cavanagh was going to be sent off for that yesterday, he'd still have done it.
As I mentioned in the Tyrone/Monaghan game thread, a number of years back my old school was playing St. Ciaran's Clara in an All-Ireland U16 semi-final with the game deep into injury time with Clara leading by two points, one of our players is through on goal with the ball and a Clara defender in desperation pulled him down just outside the penalty area. He got sent off for the tackle but his sacrifice was enough for St. Ciaran's to win the game and then onwards to winning the All-Ireland Junior Football VS title. It was a risk that paid off even if our supporters were annoyed to hell by the cynicism of it.
Some of us will do our jobs well and some will not, but we will be judged by only one thing-the result.
Quote from: Lone Shark on August 04, 2013, 12:23:52 PM
The Kennelly tackle is the perfect example, though admittedly it worked out all the better for Kerry because he didn't actually get sent off for it. Foul play can pay off.
Neither am I saying there is no difference between what Cavanagh did and a tackle that would do serious injury to a player. Of course there is a difference in scale - however both offences are clearly wrong, yet for some arbitrary reason we've decided that a line exists somewhere between the two.
However we can say clearly that in both instances, the offending team are the ones to benefit even when the perpetrator is given the maximum sanction available. Both instances are clearly wrong on an ethical level. The scale is the only thing at issue and I would suggest that any one of that Monaghan team would happily take a broken bone this morning if they were in an All Ireland semi-final. What Cavanagh did hurt them more than any punch he could have thrown.
I would say one of the lines is the level of pre-meditation and calculated approach. There is a big difference between saying, or being told, that you are going to go out an butcher a lad from the start because he's dangerous and finding yourself in a split second situation where you use whatever you can to stop a clear goal chance.
As I said, I wouldn't argue that the rule book is strong enough in this area. I also wouldn't argue that it's fair play. However I would argue that it is not as calculated as other less high profile cynical acts which litter football at this stage. I would also argue that it has always been thus, and even though it's obviously anecdotal as opposed to scientific, I believe that the vast majority of players would do exactly the same thing in the morning. I bet it happens 50 times this morning in club games up and down the country, albeit maybe not as elegantly executed as Cavanaghs rugby tackle.
I'm up at home this weekend, and I've spoken to a few ex-players, current players, current coaches, ex-coaches and none of them thought that what Cavanagh did was in any way 'remarkable', and they would either do it themselves, have done it themselves, or would expect their players to do it if the situation arose. Not in a calculated way, but in an instinctive, desperate manner.
Was Cavanagh's haul down any different to what Shields did in the second game?
He picked the ball straight up off the ground in last gasp desperation because he knew that if he didn't commit the foul that his team would concede a goal.
He was very lucky in that he got away with it.
But for my money, both instances are the same. The player did what he had to do to limit the damage to their team.
Why is Shields' morals not being questioned?
I think that shows that Brolly's rant was a more an anti-Tyrone one than one built on logic.
Good point Joe, and I actually meant to remark on it. Again, an act of last ditch desperation by a lad who knew he was doing wrong. And again an act that I would expect every player in the country to do in the same situation.
Quote from: sam03/05 on August 04, 2013, 12:18:27 PM
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41698000/jpg/_41698554_3derry.jpg)
Joe had no problems celebrating in 2006 when Derry beat Tyrone in Omagh. If you watch the game you will see some of the most cynical tackles and play of the previous 15 years. The Tyrone players were simply not allowed to play, and Sean Cavanagh was pulled to the ground at every sign of danger.
Joe was dancing in the stands afterwards and had no problems with the Derry style of play, which at the end of the day won them the game.
Maybe Joe should go back and have a look at that game and his comments about it afterwards before he launches another personal attack.
An excellent example of Joe's ridiculous hypocrisy. That game was equal if not worse than any 'tactics' Tyrone employ. We all know Joe fires out controversial analysis and to stir the pot and raise his profile and I would normally take it with a large pinch of salt. The personal digs/insults of Sean and Mickey go way beyond the pale and, in actual fact, would make me think far less of the man Joe Brolly rather than SC.
You never see them in the same room at the same time...................
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTUdANBlFEmtxfnKZI8zeR3McIpz7FJxzxiqE7xoQDkcWIymfLW)
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSSGjZ3Xz816636XyQTZUNEk79MUc_9rJMJr08KCHKXyUVfCFMMpA)
Quote from: omagh_gael on August 04, 2013, 01:02:25 PM
Quote from: sam03/05 on August 04, 2013, 12:18:27 PM
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41698000/jpg/_41698554_3derry.jpg)
Joe had no problems celebrating in 2006 when Derry beat Tyrone in Omagh. If you watch the game you will see some of the most cynical tackles and play of the previous 15 years. The Tyrone players were simply not allowed to play, and Sean Cavanagh was pulled to the ground at every sign of danger.
Joe was dancing in the stands afterwards and had no problems with the Derry style of play, which at the end of the day won them the game.
Maybe Joe should go back and have a look at that game and his comments about it afterwards before he launches another personal attack.
An excellent example of Joe's ridiculous hypocrisy. That game was equal if not worse than any 'tactics' Tyrone employ. We all know Joe fires out controversial analysis and to stir the pot and raise his profile and I would normally take it with a large pinch of salt. The personal digs/insults of Sean and Mickey go way beyond the pale and, in actual fact, would make me think far less of the man Joe Brolly rather than SC.
I wonder if the exact same situation had arisen back in the 93 AIF and Derry had lost the game because of it, would Joe have gone up to that player and said, 'Well done me oul mucker....you did the right thing....'
Quote from: Lone Shark on August 04, 2013, 11:59:13 AM
What I can't understand in all this is that if Joe is so passionate about the problem within the rule book, why alter the terms of the debate by personalising the issue in a manner that so many people are likely to find distasteful? Whatever else you can say about him, he's clearly an intelligent man and if he choose to direct his rant about the way the rules encouraged Seán Cavanagh to do this and how that clearly needs adjustment, people would listen. However by going as far as he did, he's made the whole thing personal and we're not talking about the rule book as much. I can't fathom why Joe would want this.
In my own view, I'm torn. I find it hard to blame Cavanagh in one sense - what he did saved his team two points, and his team won by two points. It was a purely logical act - he committed the foul and he took the maximum sanction that the referee was allowed to give. However taking this same line of thinking to other situations, a horrible vista appears. For example, we've seen in the last two games by the Cork hurlers that Pat Horgan is clearly worth five or six points per game to them. I know from experience as a bookie that on average, a red card is worth between two and three points to the team with the numerical advantage. By that logic a weak Dublin player could line out in the AI semi, deliberately take Pat Horgan out of the game with an aggressive foul in the first minute, take his red card and Dublin would be better off. It's completely the same principle, and all the defences been used for Cavanagh could still apply, with the exception of the completely made up "X% of guys would do the same". It would be a different X.
You can't always legislate for every situation and there will always be an element of grey area in the rule book where certain fouls might pay off for the offenders. It's always been that way - some of the stuff that defenders used to get up to in the 70s and 80s was downright repulsive when viewed in today's light - but we were conditioned to think that it was just the way the game was and that it was more "manly" - which is garbage. Ultimately you have to depend on players to know where the line is between acceptable and unacceptable, and I don't like Seán Cavanagh's idea that players will always go as far as the rule book permits.
I think he might see it differently if Mayo/Donegal lined out against him in the semi-final and knocked four teeth out of his head in the first minute to take Tyrone's best player out of the game. The principle would be exactly the same, and that's a question that I'd love to hear him answer.
Cavanagh's front teeth went a long time ago. It wasn't pretty but he was punished by the rules set by those who control. If the sanction to stop the pulling down of players was a red card the Cavanagh would benefit most out of anyone in the inter county scene.
Quote from: omagh_gael on August 04, 2013, 01:02:25 PM
Quote from: sam03/05 on August 04, 2013, 12:18:27 PM
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41698000/jpg/_41698554_3derry.jpg)
Joe had no problems celebrating in 2006 when Derry beat Tyrone in Omagh. If you watch the game you will see some of the most cynical tackles and play of the previous 15 years. The Tyrone players were simply not allowed to play, and Sean Cavanagh was pulled to the ground at every sign of danger.
Joe was dancing in the stands afterwards and had no problems with the Derry style of play, which at the end of the day won them the game.
Maybe Joe should go back and have a look at that game and his comments about it afterwards before he launches another personal attack.
An excellent example of Joe's ridiculous hypocrisy. That game was equal if not worse than any 'tactics' Tyrone employ. We all know Joe fires out controversial analysis and to stir the pot and raise his profile and I would normally take it with a large pinch of salt. The personal digs/insults of Sean and Mickey go way beyond the pale and, in actual fact, would make me think far less of the man Joe Brolly rather than SC.
He had way too much to drink that night too if memory serves me right.
Quote from: sam03/05 on August 04, 2013, 12:18:27 PM
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41698000/jpg/_41698554_3derry.jpg)
Joe had no problems celebrating in 2006 when Derry beat Tyrone in Omagh. If you watch the game you will see some of the most cynical tackles and play of the previous 15 years. The Tyrone players were simply not allowed to play, and Sean Cavanagh was pulled to the ground at every sign of danger.
Joe was dancing in the stands afterwards and had no problems with the Derry style of play, which at the end of the day won them the game.
Maybe Joe should go back and have a look at that game and his comments about it afterwards before he launches another personal attack.
Kevin Hughes got himself sent off early that day, Mickey had a brain-fart with team selection, Derry were the better team all over the pitch and won deservedly, that's how I remember it anyway. And Joe was entitled to celebrate.
That 2006 game is a key element in my blog about Joe's rant..
THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM
Now let's go back even further, to the root of the problem. Gaelic Football has changed dramatically in the last 10-15 years, and not necessarily for the good. You could say that Armagh and Tyrone brought it to a new level in 2002/03 with multi-player tackling and the so-called blanket-defence. It worked for them.
In 2006, All Ireland champions Tyrone were held scoreless in the first-half in Omagh when they attempted to defend their title against Derry. Not one score in 35 minutes!
Derry did it by identifying Tyrone as a team who liked to play the ball out short and run with the ball, so to avoid Derry's bigger midfield. The Oak Leaf boys proceeded to systematically foul Tyrone from the corner-backs out, with rugby tackle after rugby tackle, taking a tick, a yellow card, another tick and then bringing on a substitute who would do the same, from scratch. It worked for them.
Please don't read this as anti-Derry because there is a much wider and important debate here - you can win by fouling, sorry stifling, the other team. It has happened countless times since.
I don't even go to top inter-county games any more, because it's awful to watch. This year, I flicked on the telly to see some of the Donegal-Down Ulster SFC game. Right away, Conor Laverty side-stepped a Donegal man and when he attempted to deftly get round another, he was grabbed and thrown to the floor. Lovely.
My whole blog is here - http://www.jeromequinnmedia.com/-blog/Joe-Brolly---Love-him-or-Hate-him_98 (http://www.jeromequinnmedia.com/-blog/Joe-Brolly---Love-him-or-Hate-him_98)
Quote from: EC Unique on August 04, 2013, 01:42:26 PM
Quote from: omagh_gael on August 04, 2013, 01:02:25 PM
Quote from: sam03/05 on August 04, 2013, 12:18:27 PM
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41698000/jpg/_41698554_3derry.jpg)
Joe had no problems celebrating in 2006 when Derry beat Tyrone in Omagh. If you watch the game you will see some of the most cynical tackles and play of the previous 15 years. The Tyrone players were simply not allowed to play, and Sean Cavanagh was pulled to the ground at every sign of danger.
Joe was dancing in the stands afterwards and had no problems with the Derry style of play, which at the end of the day won them the game.
Maybe Joe should go back and have a look at that game and his comments about it afterwards before he launches another personal attack.
An excellent example of Joe's ridiculous hypocrisy. That game was equal if not worse than any 'tactics' Tyrone employ. We all know Joe fires out controversial analysis and to stir the pot and raise his profile and I would normally take it with a large pinch of salt. The personal digs/insults of Sean and Mickey go way beyond the pale and, in actual fact, would make me think far less of the man Joe Brolly rather than SC.
He had way too much to drink that night too if memory serves me right.
Your constant sniping about Brollys "drinking" from behind an anonymous username is cowardly and pathetic.
Quote from: 5 Sams on August 04, 2013, 11:44:16 AM
Just watched it again. Absolutely brilliant television...
Indeed, but not an analysis of the game. Joe could turn round and snog Pat which would certainly make for a " TV moment" but its not what they are there to do!
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 04, 2013, 02:30:59 PM
Quote from: 5 Sams on August 04, 2013, 11:44:16 AM
Just watched it again. Absolutely brilliant television...
Indeed, but not an analysis of the game. Joe could turn round and snog Pat which would certainly make for a " TV moment" but its not what they are there to do!
;D Very true and I think Joe is more of an entertainer than an actual analyst.
Quote from: Kidder81 on August 04, 2013, 02:28:29 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 04, 2013, 01:42:26 PM
Quote from: omagh_gael on August 04, 2013, 01:02:25 PM
Quote from: sam03/05 on August 04, 2013, 12:18:27 PM
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41698000/jpg/_41698554_3derry.jpg)
Joe had no problems celebrating in 2006 when Derry beat Tyrone in Omagh. If you watch the game you will see some of the most cynical tackles and play of the previous 15 years. The Tyrone players were simply not allowed to play, and Sean Cavanagh was pulled to the ground at every sign of danger.
Joe was dancing in the stands afterwards and had no problems with the Derry style of play, which at the end of the day won them the game.
Maybe Joe should go back and have a look at that game and his comments about it afterwards before he launches another personal attack.
An excellent example of Joe's ridiculous hypocrisy. That game was equal if not worse than any 'tactics' Tyrone employ. We all know Joe fires out controversial analysis and to stir the pot and raise his profile and I would normally take it with a large pinch of salt. The personal digs/insults of Sean and Mickey go way beyond the pale and, in actual fact, would make me think far less of the man Joe Brolly rather than SC.
He had way too much to drink that night too if memory serves me right.
Your constant sniping about Brollys "drinking" from behind an anonymous username is cowardly and pathetic.
The irony is that he's been known to post crap on this site when he's tanked up. Mind you he comes into his own when sober as his previous post about Willie Fraser which was deleted by the mods goes to prove
Quote from: squire_in_navy_slacks on August 04, 2013, 10:19:31 AM
Has anybody took on board the emotional aspects of the possible effects that organ donation can have on someones overall mental well being ......................... physically Joe does not look as well as he has done and emotionally he is not holding it together .................................................. he had a very good point though.............................Mickey Harte has alot to answer for and has hid from the media for a long time now to suit oneself, he sends his troops out to feign injury and generally act like thugs, a good team no doubt but they will fall on ones sword shortly.............Conor Gormley is an absolute kn**ker
from the indo
The Tyrone manager also admitted that he was unsure whether or not the red card handed to Martin Penrose by referee Cormac Reilly for his clash with Dessie Mone as the teams left the field for the half-time break was deserved.
"I wasn't close enough to see it, but thinking that Martin Penrose would be involved in something of that nature would be very unlike him. I'll have to see the pictures to find out if it merited a red card or not. I really can't say as I wasn't close enough but when we get the benefit of television footage we will be able to tell if it was a good red card or not."
More crap from Harte........Panrose is like rory gallagher a little sly divil................and who else threw a solid in that mess at half time, Gormley
You seem obsessed with Gormley. Not the first time you have posted cheap personal insults about him from behind an anonymous nickname. Hardly puts in much of a position to call anybody else a kn**ker, does it.
I remember a ref out at the old Dilboy Stadium in Boston started booking fellas for "persistent fouling" one Sunday-LOL. ( Ie Home based donkeys fouling the young hired guns over for the Summer.)
There was ructions at the time, but it actually worked.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on August 04, 2013, 02:45:29 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on August 04, 2013, 02:28:29 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 04, 2013, 01:42:26 PM
Quote from: omagh_gael on August 04, 2013, 01:02:25 PM
Quote from: sam03/05 on August 04, 2013, 12:18:27 PM
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41698000/jpg/_41698554_3derry.jpg)
Joe had no problems celebrating in 2006 when Derry beat Tyrone in Omagh. If you watch the game you will see some of the most cynical tackles and play of the previous 15 years. The Tyrone players were simply not allowed to play, and Sean Cavanagh was pulled to the ground at every sign of danger.
Joe was dancing in the stands afterwards and had no problems with the Derry style of play, which at the end of the day won them the game.
Maybe Joe should go back and have a look at that game and his comments about it afterwards before he launches another personal attack.
An excellent example of Joe's ridiculous hypocrisy. That game was equal if not worse than any 'tactics' Tyrone employ. We all know Joe fires out controversial analysis and to stir the pot and raise his profile and I would normally take it with a large pinch of salt. The personal digs/insults of Sean and Mickey go way beyond the pale and, in actual fact, would make me think far less of the man Joe Brolly rather than SC.
He had way too much to drink that night too if memory serves me right.
Your constant sniping about Brollys "drinking" from behind an anonymous username is cowardly and pathetic.
The irony is that he's been known to post crap on this site when he's tanked up. Mind you he comes into his own when sober as his previous post about Willie Fraser which was deleted by the mods goes to prove
a bit of clown alright that 'Unique chap. Instead of actually attending these football or soccer matches, he'd rather snipe from the safety of his PC
For anybody that wants a crack at Brolly,he's in Ardboe tonight for Nathan Carter.He's meeting up with Fay Devlin for a few pints.
Quote from: Club Rossa on August 04, 2013, 03:15:13 PM
For anybody that wants a crack at Brolly,he's in Ardboe tonight for Nathan Carter.He's meeting up with Fay Devlin for a few pints.
Thing about Brolly is that he will crack a few jokes and in a few days it will all be forgotten. I actually think he is an engaging character and is clearly a very intelligent man, but when he starts ranting whilst agenda driven he does himself no favours. But I dare say he loves the attention!
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 04, 2013, 02:30:59 PM
Quote from: 5 Sams on August 04, 2013, 11:44:16 AM
Just watched it again. Absolutely brilliant television...
Indeed, but not an analysis of the game. Joe could turn round and snog Pat which would certainly make for a " TV moment" but its not what they are there to do!
I'm not pretending he was analysing it. It's the sort of stuff which will have people watching in their droves.
Plenty of tackles in that game in particular from Kerry very similar to that of Cavanagh. Will joe have another melt down? I doubt it.
(http://i.imgur.com/ckwwtfY.jpg)
Great photo.
That's a class picture
Quote from: EC Unique on August 04, 2013, 03:46:51 PM
Plenty of tackles in that game in particular from Kerry very similar to that of Cavanagh. Will joe have another melt down? I doubt it.
It is against GAA journalism rules to criticise Kerry!
I wonder would Joe rather go for a pint with Sean Cavanagh or his stamper Donegal mate Eamon McGee.
How angry must Joe be sat at home watching that stamp by Eamon McGee?
Ah here, Joe. Leave it out.
http://youtu.be/IieFUGJva2I
With respect, this is a better video! It's Mickey Harte and Joe Brolly on a discussion panel about TV punditry, and excuse the pun, but Mickey 'nails' Joe with a great interception in the first minute.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PcVORui-w0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PcVORui-w0)
Black card rule will put an end to the cheating next year.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 04, 2013, 11:54:25 AM
Quote from: squire_in_navy_slacks on August 04, 2013, 10:19:31 AM
Has anybody took on board the emotional aspects of the possible effects that organ donation can have on someones overall mental well being
If someone is not emotionally/mentally fit to do the job they are tasked with, then they shouldn't be there for the protection of themselves and those around him. RTÉ have a care of duty here as well.
Thats why I pose the question................................... the mental health stigma is alive and well even in the gaa, Brolly being banjoed as the biggest w**ker on the island for stating the facts in an emotional state ............................
Quote from: Any craic on August 04, 2013, 08:57:06 PM
With respect, this is a better video! It's Mickey Harte and Joe Brolly on a discussion panel about TV punditry, and excuse the pun, but Mickey 'nails' Joe with a great interception in the first minute.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PcVORui-w0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PcVORui-w0)
Mon Tyronies...let it go and get ready for the semi ;-)
15 pages of rubbish.
I Completely agree with what Brolly said. The best pundit on TV in any sport.
His outburst was passionate, accurate and made for brilliant viewing. The sooner we see an end to the cynical cheating as displayed by Cavanagh the better for GAA.
It's more than unfortunate that Tyrone have got the brunt of Joe's rant. Their name is tarnished because a lot of people will just go with Joe on this, forgetting all the superb things Tyrone have brought to Gaelic Football in the last ten years. That's the damaging part of Joe's rant and that's essentially why it was misplaced and wrong, so please don't lose that or underplay it when you agree with the sentiment of Joe's message. It's no wonder Tyrone people are standing up for their county, you would do the same. We get accused lazily of being blinkered but for heaven's sake, we have won 3 Sams in ten years and contributed enormously to the modern game.
Quote from: Any craic on August 04, 2013, 10:48:31 PM
It's more than unfortunate that Tyrone have got the brunt of Joe's rant. Their name is tarnished because a lot of people will just go with Joe on this, forgetting all the superb things Tyrone have brought to Gaelic Football in the last ten years. That's the damaging part of Joe's rant and that's essentially why it was misplaced and wrong, so please don't lose that or underplay it when you agree with the sentiment of Joe's message. It's no wonder Tyrone people are standing up for their county, you would do the same. We get accused lazily of being blinkered but for heaven's sake, we have won 3 Sams in ten years and contributed enormously to the modern game.
Err, it's not like Joe was the first to finger Tyrone as perhaps the key player in developing systematic cynical play.
They will still be remembered as a great team regardless, this is just a passing storm.
Quote from: Any craic on August 04, 2013, 10:48:31 PM
It's more than unfortunate that Tyrone have got the brunt of Joe's rant. Their name is tarnished because a lot of people will just go with Joe on this, forgetting all the superb things Tyrone have brought to Gaelic Football in the last ten years. That's the damaging part of Joe's rant and that's essentially why it was misplaced and wrong, so please don't lose that or underplay it when you agree with the sentiment of Joe's message. It's no wonder Tyrone people are standing up for their county, you would do the same. We get accused lazily of being blinkered but for heaven's sake, we have won 3 Sams in ten years and contributed enormously to the modern game.
I think the problem is that a lot of that contribution is perceived negatively (blanket defence, sledging, diving, cynical fouling etc.).
watching it 2nd time round, i think he has more than a point about this type of fouling, in his eyes the idols of the GAA are doing this leading to underage players who look up to their heroes adopting the same negative attitude at u-16 games to win games
Quote from: Any craic on August 04, 2013, 10:48:31 PM
It's more than unfortunate that Tyrone have got the brunt of Joe's rant. Their name is tarnished because a lot of people will just go with Joe on this, forgetting all the superb things Tyrone have brought to Gaelic Football in the last ten years. That's the damaging part of Joe's rant and that's essentially why it was misplaced and wrong, so please don't lose that or underplay it when you agree with the sentiment of Joe's message. It's no wonder Tyrone people are standing up for their county, you would do the same. We get accused lazily of being blinkered but for heaven's sake, we have won 3 Sams in ten years and contributed enormously to the modern game.
Lol ;D
Quote from: hardstation on August 04, 2013, 10:04:14 PM
There was a lot wrong with what Brolly said but the worst part for me was where he said (and I paraphrase):
"I coach an u12 team and if one of my team did that, he would never get a jersey again."
So, an 11 year old makes a 'mistake' on a football field and he's never allowed to play again.
Well done, Joe. I'll not be sending my kids anywhere near you.
Oh wise up. His point was that he doesn't encourage kids to undertake that kind of tackle. Simple as that.
Quote from: Any craic on August 04, 2013, 10:48:31 PM
It's more than unfortunate that Tyrone have got the brunt of Joe's rant. Their name is tarnished because a lot of people will just go with Joe on this, forgetting all the superb things Tyrone have brought to Gaelic Football in the last ten years. That's the damaging part of Joe's rant and that's essentially why it was misplaced and wrong, so please don't lose that or underplay it when you agree with the sentiment of Joe's message. It's no wonder Tyrone people are standing up for their county, you would do the same. We get accused lazily of being blinkered but for heaven's sake, we have won 3 Sams in ten years and contributed enormously to the modern game.
I actually think this will mobilise Tyrone and create a sort of siege mentality. Watching it again its hilarious how much anger was flowing out of Brollys mouth.
Anybody who is capable of thinking for themselves doesnt need Brolly et al to forge their impressions of teams.
Quote from: hardstation link=topic=23552.msg1261139#msg1261139 date=1375653060
Quote from: The Stallion on August 04, 2013, 10:47:57 PM
I Completely agree with what Brolly said. The best pundit on TV in any sport.
His outburst was passionate, accurate and made for brilliant viewing. The sooner we see an end to the cynical cheating as displayed by Cavanagh the better for GAA.
What do you make of him suggesting that he would not let a kid play a game again if he did what Cavanagh did?
Underage coach of the year is Brolly.
I was chatting to a fella today who wouldn't be a fan of Tyrone and he took Brolly's comments even further in regards to the negativity being introduced into the juvenile game. He thought that if these deliberately negative tactics crept into underage tactics it would absolutely fly in the face of the legacy Campa Chormaic and The Michaela Foundation are trying to create.
A bit of an overreaction imo. As someone said I think this is another phase that will pass.
16 pages of rubbish.
I like Joe Brolly for the most part but what he said on TV last night was unbelievable and just plain wrong. A few random thoughts on it:
1) he really seems to dislike Sean Cavanagh for some reason. Couldn't given him credit against Meath and when his theory about "man-marking" Cavanagh" was blown asunder yesterday it seemed to annoy him;
2) he went for Monaghan to win unlike his co-pundits (who he obviously doesn't rate). Tyrone won and "they" were right - this seemed to annoy him;
3) the whole argument about "cynical fouling" is a joke. I have experienced, witnessed and committed fouls of this type since I first played underage football. To suggest Sean Cavanagh's foul was out of the ordinary was ridiculous in the extreme. A yellow card was the correct censure. If someone on my team DIDN'T do what Cavanagh did I'd eat the head off him;
4) the elephant in the room as always is refereeing. Why does no-one on TV say this? If refs applied the rules properly we'd have a much better game. The standard of refereeing is a complete joke.
5) I thought it was an excellent game. Not free-flowing but intense and lots of skills on display. Thought Tyrone's coolness in possession and use of the space in Croker was first class. Monaghan were a little unlucky but a bit naive. Allowing Tyrone to get possession from short kickouts backfired - they needed to at least mix it up at times.
To bring an example from another sport into it, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer (not a remotely cynical or dirty player) famously ran back most of the length of the pitch one day when Newcastle broke away and looked like scoring to clinch a game. He cleaned the attacker out and got the red card. Got a standing ovation from the crowd as he went to the dressing room.
This whole argument is so ridiculous.
I just hope it doesn't impact Tyrone's chances. Referees have biases and preconceptions too.
Quote from: magpie seanie on August 04, 2013, 11:12:20 PM
To bring an example from another sport into it, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer (not a remotely cynical or dirty player) famously ran back most of the length of the pitch one day when Newcastle broke away and looked like scoring to clinch a game. He cleaned the attacker out and got the red card. Got a standing ovation from the crowd as he went to the dressing room.
This whole argument is so ridiculous.
I just hope it doesn't impact Tyrone's chances. Referees have biases and preconceptions too.
Why would you quote an example from soccer where a player gets a red card when you only advocate a yellow for something similar in Gaelic football, unless you believe that Solskjaer shouldn't have got a red card in that incident, which I remember well?
You can't honestly believe that Solskjaer didn't deserve a red for that?
Quote from: EC Unique on August 04, 2013, 11:27:23 PM
Really? All managers advocate the type of systematic fouling policy that Tyrone have engaged in this year?
Was it on show in the Dublin-Cork game?
Quote from: Sidney on August 04, 2013, 11:33:14 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 04, 2013, 11:27:23 PM
Really? All managers advocate the type of systematic fouling policy that Tyrone have engaged in this year?
Was it on show in the Dublin-Cork game?
I have yet to hear any player or manager say that they would not have done the same or have expected their player to do the same.
Comparing gaelic footballers to the diving, mercenary, cheating unsporting game that is soccer played by a bunch of grown men that need to feel loved to play for their club,Idols like Rooney, Suarez, Tevez, Ronaldo, is this that the way you want gaelic to go. the only man worth his salt in soccer is messi (with a dodgy dad)
Quote from: hardstation on August 04, 2013, 11:32:42 PM
You have missed the point. The rules in Gaelic football are that it is not a red. Simple.
His point is that even if it is a red (and Cavanagh had received it), it is still probably the right thing to do.
The point is that the rules are inadequate. But some people defend them and want the status quo to remain. You get the type of game you deserve in that case.
If you think that pulling down somebody like Cavanagh did is the right thing to do, if you think constant third man tackling is right, that's your call. But don't get offended when it's called out as hateful, cynical shlte, because it clearly is.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 04, 2013, 11:37:29 PM
Comparing gaelic footballers to the diving, mercenary, cheating unsporting game that is soccer played by a bunch of grown men that need to feel loved to play for their club,Idols like Rooney, Suarez, Tevez, Ronaldo, is this that the way you want gaelic to go. the only man worth his salt in soccer is messi (with a dodgy dad)
Yeah, because diving, cheating, unsporting and mercenary behaviour never happens in GAA. Never. Every person in our great association is a paragon of virtue.
Deary me.
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 04, 2013, 11:41:50 PM
Quote from: laoislad on August 04, 2013, 11:02:11 PM
16 pages of rubbish.
And you're still reading it...
There are THOUSANDS of pages of drivel on here. Someone has to read it.
C'mon, laoislad, are you serious? You complain about "16 [soon to be 17] pages of drivel" but seem to have no compunction about contributing to the 1,475 pages of discussion about Liverpool FC, which you're undoubtedly entitled to.
Surely this is the perfect venue for a discussion about not only the conduct and views of a TV analyst but, more importantly, the very rules of Gaelic football itself and by extension the game's integrity.
Most of us, I'm sure, have done what Cavanagh did, but that doesn't mean it enhances the game. The penalty should be a straight red, not a yellow.
As for Brolly, he lost his cool and once more displayed an anti-Tyrone bias, hardly the epitome of professionalism, but at least he had something of consequence to say, which is more than can be said of platitudinous sidekicks.
Let the discussion continue. I want to hear people's opinions about the direction the game's taking.
Cynical foul in the penalty area should be punished with a straight red, otherwise players are going to assume that the rugby tackle is now part of Gaelic football since the penalty is so lenient that it might as well be.
I disagree that over-use of the handpass is a problem. The problem is this half throwing action that they're getting away with. There's nothing wrong with a predominantly handpassing game when good clean crisp handpasses are used.
Quote from: Oraisteach on August 05, 2013, 12:28:30 AM
C'mon, laoislad, are you serious? You complain about "16 [soon to be 17] pages of drivel" but seem to have no compunction about contributing to the 1,475 pages of discussion about Liverpool FC, which you're undoubtedly entitled to.
Surely this is the perfect venue for a discussion about not only the conduct and views of a TV analyst but, more importantly, the very rules of Gaelic football itself and by extension the game's integrity.
Most of us, I'm sure, have done what Cavanagh did, but that doesn't mean it enhances the game. The penalty should be a straight red, not a yellow.
As for Brolly, he lost his cool and once more displayed an anti-Tyrone bias, hardly the epitome of professionalism, but at least he had something of consequence to say, which is more than can be said of platitudinous sidekicks.
Let the discussion continue. I want to hear people's opinions about the direction the game's taking.
As an Ulsterman let me be quite clear that I believe the "cynical/tactical/professional" approach to the (ahem!) tackle began with Armagh and was "enhanced" by Tyrone over recent years, blithely ignored by the TV and Radio pundits who have fawned on the new messiahs of Gaelic football who manage these teams. Neer did I think I would come to the defence of Brolly but at last one of these pundits has come off the fence and called it like it is.
Wonderful footballer and athlete as he is, it's is all too sad to see traits in the DNA of the modern footballer in these teams that betray all that is good about his game with such downright dirty play. To get a man of the match award into the bargain tells us all what a cesspit of unsporting "professonalism" has been foisted upon us by the false prophets of "Ulster" football.
Far from being "anti-northern", the RTE media have propogated the myth to the extent that a dire Donegal team, propelled by a 'win at all costs' mantra last year, were lauded as a paragon of that same "professional" extremisism - and as an Ulsterman, but more importanatly as a GAA man, and as a sportsman, thank God they were tanked today, and pray, please pray, that Mayo will do the same to this dire Tyrone outfit
What I find depressing is the abuse directed towards Joe brolly for having an honest opinion. If a young lad on my te am had done what Sean cavanagh did I would have substituted him immediately.
Tyrone are the most cynical team in the country. To think a manager sends out a team with a systematic policy to foul the opposition for victory is an insult to the sport.
Joe Brolly criticism is a case of shooting the messenger. What he said was true but Tyrone fans would rather abuse joe than accept they are a team that the old Italian prine Machiavelli would be proud of.
Its not important how you win, just get the win at all costs.
Tyrone must be the only team in the country who practice fooling in training.
An example to us all!!!!
The GAA sells its broadcasting rights in the hope that TV stations are going to do a good job of presenting the sports. For a network to then turn around and bad mouth the product they're offering seems like an attempt to turn off as many repeat viewers as possible. Typical unprofessional RTE drivel. If anybody acted like that on an American network they'd be fired.
Quote from: dublin7 on August 05, 2013, 03:18:33 AM
What I find depressing is the abuse directed towards Joe brolly for having an honest opinion. If a young lad on my te am had done what Sean cavanagh did I would have substituted him immediately.
Tyrone are the most cynical team in the country. To think a manager sends out a team with a systematic policy to foul the opposition for victory is an insult to the sport.
Joe Brolly criticism is a case of shooting the messenger. What he said was true but Tyrone fans would rather abuse joe than accept they are a team that the old Italian prine Machiavelli would be proud of.
Its not important how you win, just get the win at all costs.
Tyrone must be the only team in the country who practice fooling in training.
An example to us all!!!!
Tyrone are not sent out to systematically foul! Sean as a footballer saw a situation develop where his team's place in a semi final was at stake and he made a split second decision to take the man down. Ultimately it was the correct decision as Tyrone are still standing. I, as a Tyrone man, know its not pretty but I'm glad he did it as I'd much prefer to be looking forward to an AI semi than basking in the glory of fake praise from Joe Brolly or GAAboard posters for our sportsmanship! Anyway, have you ever once heard a pundit say "that was a great piece of sportsmanship there as he let the man waltz past him to score that goal"? It's all nonsense!!
Brolly's tirade reinforces the myth that Tyrone are systemic fouling team. Tyrone have been live on Saturday TV the last 3 weekends winning by 2 points each time, easy and lazy to say they must practice fouling in fouling. Complete myth.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 05, 2013, 12:33:02 AM
Cynical foul in the penalty area should be punished with a straight red, otherwise players are going to assume that the rugby tackle is now part of Gaelic football since the penalty is so lenient that it might as well be.
I disagree that over-use of the handpass is a problem. The problem is this half throwing action that they're getting away with. There's nothing wrong with a predominantly handpassing game when good clean crisp handpasses are used.
The problem I see is that cavanaghs 'tackle' was the extreme end of the spectrum.
it was most certainly cynical, it was an easy call for the ref to make, and if the rules where changed , would certainly deserve a red card.
on the other end , is where players are genuinely trying to tackle and opponent, and get tangle up or whatever or slightly over step the mark and foul them, that can be a very very difficult distinction for a referee to make. 'what was his intent?' 'did he try to bring him down or just a slightly mistimed the challenge?'
The referee on saturday obviously thought he saw a foul on sean cavangh as he went through on goal by darren hughes. if the black card (or even red) was an option what would he have done? would he have had one of monaghans best players sitting in the stand for the rest of the game for a perfectly good challenge.
I suppose my pioint is that the cavanagh example is very clear cut, but is also quite rare, however there are numerous other examples in every game that are very very difficult to call. In my opinion, a player should only be sent off if the referee can be 100% sure.
1) There is a gret deal of irony in keyboard warrors giving abuse to Joe Brolly's for his personal attack on Cavanagh.
2) The crux of Brolly's argument I agree with, the personal attack not so much but Cavanagh has previous of trying to get players booked and sent off, even the yellow card on Darren Hughes in the first half I thought he bought it.
3) Joe obviously doesn't like Tyrone but is very passionate about this systematic fouling. He was never was PC and in this day in age I find that refreshing, personal insults I don't like.
4) The black card won't stop fouls like this happening
5) There seems to be a blandness of the BBC v the zest nature of RTE team, be great if we could get some analysis in the middle ground.
6) I'm glad this rant has occured, we are all now talking about one of the evils that has crept into our game. For too long we've been far too apathetic towards it.
7) Win at all costs mentality is drilled into players
8) People posting Londonderry and the likes are pathetic. We're all gaels.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 05, 2013, 12:33:02 AM
Cynical foul in the penalty area should be punished with a straight red, otherwise players are going to assume that the rugby tackle is now part of Gaelic football since the penalty is so lenient that it might as well be.
I disagree that over-use of the handpass is a problem. The problem is this half throwing action that they're getting away with. There's nothing wrong with a predominantly handpassing game when good clean crisp handpasses are used.
What about if it happens outside the penalty area like the Cavanagh one? still a red?
Quote from: EC Unique on August 05, 2013, 09:29:16 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 05, 2013, 12:33:02 AM
Cynical foul in the penalty area should be punished with a straight red, otherwise players are going to assume that the rugby tackle is now part of Gaelic football since the penalty is so lenient that it might as well be.
I disagree that over-use of the handpass is a problem. The problem is this half throwing action that they're getting away with. There's nothing wrong with a predominantly handpassing game when good clean crisp handpasses are used.
What about if it happens outside the penalty area like the Cavanagh one? still a red?
Shouldn't matter if the attacker will be 1 on 1 with keeper. Most fowards shoot from outside the penalty area.
Quote from: DennistheMenace on August 05, 2013, 09:31:49 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 05, 2013, 09:29:16 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 05, 2013, 12:33:02 AM
Cynical foul in the penalty area should be punished with a straight red, otherwise players are going to assume that the rugby tackle is now part of Gaelic football since the penalty is so lenient that it might as well be.
I disagree that over-use of the handpass is a problem. The problem is this half throwing action that they're getting away with. There's nothing wrong with a predominantly handpassing game when good clean crisp handpasses are used.
What about if it happens outside the penalty area like the Cavanagh one? still a red?
Shouldn't matter if the attacker will be 1 on 1 with keeper. Most fowards shoot from outside the penalty area.
When you look at the tackle in slow mo, Gormley actually misses Mc Manus with an attempted trip. Just before Sean brings him down Colm Cav is committed to foul but goes over him as Sean takes him down!
Quote from: Aaron Boone on August 05, 2013, 08:09:16 AM
Brolly's tirade reinforces the myth that Tyrone are systemic fouling team. Tyrone have been live on Saturday TV the last 3 weekends winning by 2 points each time, easy and lazy to say they must practice fouling in fouling. Complete myth.
It's not a myth. It's a fact. Tyrone employ systematic fouling to gain advantage. Why would they not? Tyrone used other rugby tackles in 'closing out the game' on Saturday. They did it for the second week in a row. These tackles are more dramatic than the usual shirt pull so get more attention.
Mickey Harte has not denied it and also rightly points out that so do others and that his players are also systematically fouled. His anger is over what he sees as selective media comment on his team over others. Harte doesn't have a duty to make Gaelic football a fair or entertaining sport. His job is to win using whatever methods possible.
The Cavanagh incident is only the headline because of the pivotal moment it was in the game. Under the rules it's a yellow so there's nothing more to say about it. It's a rules problem. You could argue it's also an approach problem but with the levels of preparation in modern sport, this level of cynicism isn't going away.
Just wondering if a Monaghan player had done the same to Cavanagh....and Monaghan had won ....would it all be just part of the game?
Quote from: Count 10 on August 05, 2013, 09:37:49 AM
Just wondering if a Monaghan player had done the same to Cavanagh....and Monaghan had won ....would it all be just part of the game?
Doubt it very much but Brolly wouldn't have went off on one either. His rant is a good thing in that this is now highlighted to the extreme and maybe a rule changed will be enforced.
Quote from: sheamy on August 05, 2013, 09:36:37 AM
Quote from: Aaron Boone on August 05, 2013, 08:09:16 AM
Brolly's tirade reinforces the myth that Tyrone are systemic fouling team. Tyrone have been live on Saturday TV the last 3 weekends winning by 2 points each time, easy and lazy to say they must practice fouling in fouling. Complete myth.
It's not a myth. It's a fact. Tyrone employ systematic fouling to gain advantage. Why would they not? Tyrone used other rugby tackles in 'closing out the game' on Saturday. They did it for the second week in a row. These tackles are more dramatic than the usual shirt pull so get more attention.
Mickey Harte has not denied it and also rightly points out that so do others and that his players are also systematically fouled. His anger is over what he sees as selective media comment on his team over others. Harte doesn't have a duty to make Gaelic football a fair or entertaining sport. His job is to win using whatever methods possible.
The Cavanagh incident is only the headline because of the pivotal moment it was in the game. Under the rules it's a yellow so there's nothing more to say about it. It's a rules problem. You could argue it's also an approach problem but with the levels of preparation in modern sport, this level of cynicism isn't going away.
really?
when?
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on August 05, 2013, 09:46:04 AM
Quote from: sheamy on August 05, 2013, 09:36:37 AM
Quote from: Aaron Boone on August 05, 2013, 08:09:16 AM
Brolly's tirade reinforces the myth that Tyrone are systemic fouling team. Tyrone have been live on Saturday TV the last 3 weekends winning by 2 points each time, easy and lazy to say they must practice fouling in fouling. Complete myth.
It's not a myth. It's a fact. Tyrone employ systematic fouling to gain advantage. Why would they not? Tyrone used other rugby tackles in 'closing out the game' on Saturday. They did it for the second week in a row. These tackles are more dramatic than the usual shirt pull so get more attention.
Mickey Harte has not denied it and also rightly points out that so do others and that his players are also systematically fouled. His anger is over what he sees as selective media comment on his team over others. Harte doesn't have a duty to make Gaelic football a fair or entertaining sport. His job is to win using whatever methods possible.
The Cavanagh incident is only the headline because of the pivotal moment it was in the game. Under the rules it's a yellow so there's nothing more to say about it. It's a rules problem. You could argue it's also an approach problem but with the levels of preparation in modern sport, this level of cynicism isn't going away.
really?
when?
yes, I'm not making it up. If the full game was online I'd post the clip. About 2-3 mins to go a Monaghan man is dragged to the ground on or around his own 45 with a rugby tackle around the knees. I think it was Peter Harte for which he received a yellow card. Monaghan people might recall better.
However, as Mickey Harte is pointing out it's no different than the dozens of times players are fouled as they attempt to turn defence into attack. It's part of the game now.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 05, 2013, 10:01:43 AM
Quote from: DennistheMenace on August 05, 2013, 09:26:09 AM
3) Joe obviously doesn't like Tyrone but is very passionate about this systematic fouling. He was never was PC and in this day in age I find that refreshing, personal insults I don't like.
Quote from: DennistheMenace on August 05, 2013, 09:26:09 AM
8) People posting Londonderry and the likes are pathetic.
Hypocrite.
Quote from: DennistheMenace on August 05, 2013, 09:26:09 AMWe're all gaels.
Maybe my Presbyterian roots are kicking in. Should all GAA membership be subject to a family lineage test? 8)
Whenever the purpose is for winding up your fellow gaels then maybe you need to take a look at yourself. This type of sledging is rife sadly.
There are a few points form all of this - some relating to the rules, some to personal criticism, some to how Tyrone play, some to Brolly...
In that Order the rules need fixed - what SC Did v Monagahn was worthy of the most severe penalty possible. Currently thats a yellow? Not even the black would satisfy the need there, and ultimately a red card will provide the only equitable solution.
Personal criticism of any player in an amateur sport. Cavanagh will go down as one of the best players ever, and shouldnt be remembered by what Brolly or anyone said. his legacy will be his shimmy/shuffle or whatever the f**k it is. his point scoring. his all ireland medals...in all aspects of his on-field play. he is twice the man Brolly ever will be. Brolly has been at this before - he slagged off Fergal Logan a few years ago on TV...that cost him. he has been on about a variety of different players, and this year he was even on about players brothers...there are certain bars in the Shambles of ARmagh that joe would be best to avoid. for life.
Tyrone like any team with a semi final place to play for, should do whatever it takes within the rules to win. As a Tyrone fan i would not have accepted McManus walking thru to score a goal. similarly as a monaghan fan I'd be raging at what happened, but i would have also expected Monagahn to do whatever it takes to win...
And finally brolly himself...he is very generous within GAA. he has given alot to his club of birth and his adopted club in Belfast. as well as others. his kidney donation should define him more than what he says on TV, but i find that he is a bullshitter of the highest order - and deosnt know what he is saying most of the time. he is a hypocrite and a liar. The perfect man for tv and the legal system it seems
I think Joe went OTT but there is no doubting the fact he's right!!
Mickey Harte always talks about how good our games are and how much better the GAA is than everyone else. Talking about Hypocrisy and there's your answer. Mickey Harte and Cavanagh are 2 of our games role models and should be held to a higher standard than diving and systematic fouling!
The defence by Tyronies on here is " but everyone else does it" I will point you to the reply my Mother used for years "if everyone jumped off a bridge would you do it too?"
Yes others are at it but Tyrone the longest and that's ten years of Cavanagh getting lads booked and sent off with his diving and Harte pretending his team don't engage in the dark arts when he's had McMenamim, Gormley and Cavanagh on his teams for years.
Joe should stand up for our games as Mickey Harte doesn't seem to want to bar his outrage at the International Rules. Joe always played the game in the spirit it was intended so he's as well placed as anyone to stand up for what's right!
Quote from: screenexile on August 05, 2013, 10:12:29 AM
I think Joe went OTT but there is no doubting the fact he's right!!
Mickey Harte always talks about how good our games are and how much better the GAA is than everyone else. Talking about Hypocrisy and there's your answer. Mickey Harte and Cavanagh are 2 of our games role models and should be held to a higher standard than diving and systematic fouling!
The defence by Tyronies on here is " but everyone else does it" I will point you to the reply my Mother used for years "if everyone jumped off a bridge would you do it too?"
Yes others are at it but Tyrone the longest and that's ten years of Cavanagh getting lads booked and sent off with his diving and Harte pretending his team don't engage in the dark arts when he's had McMenamim, Gormley and Cavanagh on his teams for years.
Joe should stand up for our games as Mickey Harte doesn't seem to want to bar his outrage at the International Rules. Joe always played the game in the spirit it was intended so he's as well placed as anyone to stand up for what's right!
thats a fairly contentious post there - final line about Joe always playing the game in the right spirit just lets you down. alot.
Black card rule should stop the vast majority of systematic fouling, the red card rule would stop the vast majority of last ditch fouls to prevent goals (possibly not in final minutes of a game though)
Joe is right in what he said. I really don't think the black card is the answer either. To deal with systematic fouling I would adopt a 'team foul' system similar to basketball. When a team reaches number of fouls every foul thereafter will give the opposition a 21 yard free from the edge of the D on either side depending on who is hitting it. The player fouled must hit the free, so you could have a goalkeeper hitting the free but it would reduce the level of fouling if a team knew that after committing say 7 fouls per half then they would be at risk of losing a score per foul. Punish on the score board and award the team that learns how to play within the rules. While I agree that I would have done what Cavanagh did and applaud my team mates if they did it, that doesn't mean it is right and I think Joe was angry at the 'celebration' from victory which in many ways was achieved through cheating.
I personally was more annoyed at the other Cavanagh incident, which in many ways is a greater blight on the game. Darren Hughes executed the perfect tackle and Cavanagh pulled him down. Darren picked up a yellow card, incorrectly, when it should have been Cavanagh picking it up. This changed the whole dynamic of the game. Cavanagh began to dominate MF and scored 3 points on the bounce. Darren Hughes had to stand off the man as he couldn't risk the second yellow. Also the sense of injustice would have played on Darren for a good while after this and he was distracted. To me if the ref had made the correct call there then the game probably would have panned out differently.
Quote from: DennistheMenace on August 05, 2013, 10:16:13 AM
Black card rule should stop the vast majority of systematic fouling, the red card rule would stop the vast majority of last ditch fouls to prevent goals (possibly not in final minutes of a game though)
straight red is the only way to eliminate this...black card is a bit like 'careful now'...doesnt penalise the time to the fullest extent, which is what is needed
Quote from: NaomhBridAbú on August 05, 2013, 10:26:01 AM
Quote from: DennistheMenace on August 05, 2013, 10:16:13 AM
Black card rule should stop the vast majority of systematic fouling, the red card rule would stop the vast majority of last ditch fouls to prevent goals (possibly not in final minutes of a game though)
straight red is the only way to eliminate this...black card is a bit like 'careful now'...doesnt penalise the time to the fullest extent, which is what is needed
Agreed and even then a red card won't stop it happening all the time.
Surely a sin bin can be introduced!! 10 mins in the bin for rugby style tackles/blocking runs etc.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 05, 2013, 10:15:26 AM
Quote from: screenexile on August 05, 2013, 10:12:29 AM
The defence by Tyronies on here is " but everyone else does it" I will point you to the reply my Mother used for years "if everyone jumped off a bridge would you do it too?"
Did yo momma also tell you the phrase "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?" ;)
No that ones from the bible lad!
Quote from: NaomhBridAbú on August 05, 2013, 10:14:50 AM
Quote from: screenexile on August 05, 2013, 10:12:29 AM
I think Joe went OTT but there is no doubting the fact he's right!!
Mickey Harte always talks about how good our games are and how much better the GAA is than everyone else. Talking about Hypocrisy and there's your answer. Mickey Harte and Cavanagh are 2 of our games role models and should be held to a higher standard than diving and systematic fouling!
The defence by Tyronies on here is " but everyone else does it" I will point you to the reply my Mother used for years "if everyone jumped off a bridge would you do it too?"
Yes others are at it but Tyrone the longest and that's ten years of Cavanagh getting lads booked and sent off with his diving and Harte pretending his team don't engage in the dark arts when he's had McMenamim, Gormley and Cavanagh on his teams for years.
Joe should stand up for our games as Mickey Harte doesn't seem to want to bar his outrage at the International Rules. Joe always played the game in the spirit it was intended so he's as well placed as anyone to stand up for what's right!
thats a fairly contentious post there - final line about Joe always playing the game in the right spirit just lets you down. alot.
I watched Joe playing Club and County football from 90 and even played against him in his formative years I'd consider myself fairly well placed to make that comment.
Unless people are still giving out about his blowing kisses which was probably the funniest thing to ever happen in the GAA.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 05, 2013, 10:34:50 AM
Quote from: screenexile on August 05, 2013, 10:31:42 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 05, 2013, 10:15:26 AM
Quote from: screenexile on August 05, 2013, 10:12:29 AM
The defence by Tyronies on here is " but everyone else does it" I will point you to the reply my Mother used for years "if everyone jumped off a bridge would you do it too?"
Did yo momma also tell you the phrase "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?" ;)
No that ones from the bible lad!
Did she not tell you about the bible?
Yeah I got read the parables of Jesus every night ::)
Good to see the inbreds able to engage in reasoned debate as usual.
Comletely agree with you BCB re your team foul suggestion, however, have to challenge your view around Joe's initial outburst about the 'celebration' after victory. This has already been mentioned here but in 2006 Derry played out the most turgid, negative, cynical display of systematic fouling, goading and 'cheating' to beat us in the first round in Ulster. They celebrated like they had won the all ireland, with Joe himself in full flight in the main stand in Healy Park. There's photographic proof of him celbrating with Feagal Doherty coming off the pitch.
Derry employed these tactics as they were poorer footballers than us at the time and it worked. It was a means to an end and played within the rules at the time. We aren't blessed with the same quality of footballer at present so we've changed tact in how we play the game as a means to an end. So forgive me but I don't buy the faux outrage spat out by Joe about fellow amatuers reacting the exact same way he did in almost identical scenarios.
This is the third or fourth very personal and vitriolic attack that Brolly has made in the last few months. The personal nature of his comments towards Paul Grimley after Armagh's defeat by Cavan and his constant criticism of Conor Counihan and his tactics as Cork manager are further examples of the fact that he is getting away with using a public broadcaster to air personal grievances.
I enjoy watching him as he adds a bit of life to a very 'grey' panel but it isn't acceptable for a so called critic of amature sportsmen to attack indiivduals personally. By all means, have a go at Armagh, Cork and Tyrone tactics but don't attack individuals!
Mickey Harte and many Tyrone people are already embroiled (and rightfully so) in a kind of RTE boycott and I feel that this incident will embitter them further. Don't be surprised if there is a complete boycott of RTE as a result.
It's about time Brolly was publically disciplined by RTE - even Spillane and O'Rourke - while demonstrating a great deal of discomfort, didn't intervene and they really should have. Only the listless Lister defended Cavanagh and had the last word.
The folded arms and petulant snarl on his face really did remind me of 'the child in the playground' that Paul Grimley described him as.
The disappointing thing is, there is a very important debate about so called cynical fouling, and Joe 'the entertainer' has hijacked that and made it all about him.
Joe Must Go
Joe wins again.
4 quarter finals played this weekend.
What and who are we all talking about ?
Joe !
It's show time every weekend for RTE and Joe. RTE must be loving it.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 05, 2013, 10:24:30 AM
Joe is right in what he said. I really don't think the black card is the answer either. To deal with systematic fouling I would adopt a 'team foul' system similar to basketball. When a team reaches number of fouls every foul thereafter will give the opposition a 21 yard free from the edge of the D on either side depending on who is hitting it. The player fouled must hit the free, so you could have a goalkeeper hitting the free but it would reduce the level of fouling if a team knew that after committing say 7 fouls per half then they would be at risk of losing a score per foul. Punish on the score board and award the team that learns how to play within the rules. While I agree that I would have done what Cavanagh did and applaud my team mates if they did it, that doesn't mean it is right and I think Joe was angry at the 'celebration' from victory which in many ways was achieved through cheating.
I personally was more annoyed at the other Cavanagh incident, which in many ways is a greater blight on the game. Darren Hughes executed the perfect tackle and Cavanagh pulled him down. Darren picked up a yellow card, incorrectly, when it should have been Cavanagh picking it up. This changed the whole dynamic of the game. Cavanagh began to dominate MF and scored 3 points on the bounce. Darren Hughes had to stand off the man as he couldn't risk the second yellow. Also the sense of injustice would have played on Darren for a good while after this and he was distracted. To me if the ref had made the correct call there then the game probably would have panned out differently.
Id have to agree with you on both points bcb1. The points idea is a very good one. Also Darren Hughes was doing fine on Cavanagh up until that point, the incorrect booking definitley affected his performance after that.
Quote from: screenexile on August 05, 2013, 10:12:29 AM
I think Joe went OTT but there is no doubting the fact he's right!!
Mickey Harte always talks about how good our games are and how much better the GAA is than everyone else. Talking about Hypocrisy and there's your answer. Mickey Harte and Cavanagh are 2 of our games role models and should be held to a higher standard than diving and systematic fouling!
The defence by Tyronies on here is " but everyone else does it" I will point you to the reply my Mother used for years "if everyone jumped off a bridge would you do it too?"
Yes others are at it but Tyrone the longest and that's ten years of Cavanagh getting lads booked and sent off with his diving and Harte pretending his team don't engage in the dark arts when he's had McMenamim, Gormley and Cavanagh on his teams for years.
Joe should stand up for our games as Mickey Harte doesn't seem to want to bar his outrage at the International Rules. Joe always played the game in the spirit it was intended so he's as well placed as anyone to stand up for what's right!
As a Tyrone man I can't pretend to be happy with the SC tackle vs Monaghan and Monaghan should be very cross that Darren Hughes was booked for a fine tackle. But the anger amongst genuine Tyrone people is that no other county has their faults scrutinised with such ferocity and even hatred as we do. I want those tackles eradicated from the game. Similarly the abuse that SoN took from Kildare full back whilst umpires stood and watched. The really galling point is that the pundits on tv and many posters here are very selective when it comes to this analysis. Just take Sats game for example- Many calling SC a cheat for pulling Darren Hughes down and buying the free. Not one person has mentioned Dessie holding Penrose arm as he went past him along the Cusack sideline conning Reilly into giving a Monaghan free. Or the most blatant dive (rediculous) by Drew Wylie when in attack late in 2nd half. There were enough incidents like this to have merited Monaghan being on the receiving end of a Brolly drama show. End of first half- Peter Harte in attack, blatant jersey pull, Reilly can see the foul but ignores it, another one that springs to mind.
Enda mcGinley on the BBC (who we shall certainly be hearing more from) tried to provide a bit of balance to the weekend games. He highlighted just how defensive Kerry (blanket) can be but Carney, mcStay, Canning etc won't bring themselves to talk in such terms unless it's Ulster, and more so Tyrone teams. The Dubs on sat, for all their glorious attacking football filtered many men back into defence. Harte probably isn't helping the Tyrone case with the RTE interview ban (as big Joe tweeted yesterday, they have their reasons) but regardless, a balanced analysis is the least we should expect. Slating Tyrone is the easy option but the bigger issues are sorting out the rules (applying them consistently), improving standard of referees and officials, and removing the self centred egomen from punditry and replacing with guys that are fair and balanced....Dara O'Se, Anthony Tohill, Ciaran whelan, Dessie Dolan and many others are what we need in the studio. Finally EVERY county, including my own, needs to quickly remove the nasty element from their game.
Screen exile- I'm not taking issue with your points or opinion, just that this particular point sparked a memory. As far back as the mid/late 90's I recall playing Derry in Clones. Think Derry won the game. But my abiding memory is the Bellaghy man beside commenting with a few minutes left that Tyrone will never break us down now. And right enough, when we counted, Derry had 13 men inside their own half with just Joe and his partner up front. No word of a blanket in those days but often it was there.
A few egotistical pundits shouldnt be allowed to tarnish a team, county, manager or player whilst providing absolutely no balance in the debate.
I'll hunt out the DVD to see what you think.
I'm told that BBC on Saturday was very good with McGeeney in particular giving good analysis. I watched the BBC yesterday and thought Enda McGinley was very good also for a guy with little experience. Maybe the fact that McGeeney and McGinley are both fresh from county set-ups leaves them in a much better position to comment on these games than the much older men on RTE. I will be watching BBC from now on when not at the games.
Quote from: EC Unique on August 05, 2013, 11:34:00 AM
I'm told that BBC on Saturday was very good with McGeeney in particular giving good analysis. I watched the BBC yesterday and thought Enda McGinley was very good also for a guy with little experience. Maybe the fact that McGeeney and McGinley are both fresh from county set-ups leaves them in a much better position to comment on these games than the much older men on RTE. I will be watching BBC from now on when not at the games.
I thought McGinley was excellent yesterday, a great insight into the way the game is played. However, he was lucky in that there was very little analysis really needed of the 2 games as they were basically dead rubber games. James is in a difficult position as an analyst as he is nearly afraid to be critical in case it is used as motivation at some stage in the future by a team, maybe not a good thing to have current players/managers as analysts as they cannot say what they really think.
Quote from: EC Unique on August 05, 2013, 11:34:00 AM
I'm told that BBC on Saturday was very good with McGeeney in particular giving good analysis. I watched the BBC yesterday and thought Enda McGinley was very good also for a guy with little experience. Maybe the fact that McGeeney and McGinley are both fresh from county set-ups leaves them in a much better position to comment on these games than the much older men on RTE. I will be watching BBC from now on when not at the games.
Maybe for analysis but Jesus the commentary is crap.
Newstalk radios coverage of the games is so far ahead of rtes radio coverage as well. I was working and listening to games on the radio, newstalk had Darragh Ose, Conor Deegan and David Brady I think doing analysis, each station covered a game each on the saturday and in my opinion newstalk is in a different league.
Quote from: EC Unique on August 05, 2013, 11:34:00 AM
I'm told that BBC on Saturday was very good with McGeeney in particular giving good analysis. I watched the BBC yesterday and thought Enda McGinley was very good also for a guy with little experience. Maybe the fact that McGeeney and McGinley are both fresh from county set-ups leaves them in a much better position to comment on these games than the much older men on RTE. I will be watching BBC from now on when not at the games.
thats a good point, i really dont think the like of spillane understands the modern game very well at all.
Mcgeeney and mcginley were both excellent oon the BBC over the weekend, dara ose is generally very good on TV3 as well, as is senan connell.
mugsy isnt cut out to be a pundit though
i usually watch the game on RTE if i can particularly if darragh maloney is doing commenatary as its much better, but then turn to bbc for the ht /ft analysis
Joe's article back in March:
http://gaeliclife.com/2013/03/a-black-day-for-cynics/ (http://gaeliclife.com/2013/03/a-black-day-for-cynics/)
And he's article on Sunday:
http://gaeliclife.com/2013/08/joe-brolly-a-message-to-self-righteous-tyrone-fans/ (http://gaeliclife.com/2013/08/joe-brolly-a-message-to-self-righteous-tyrone-fans/)
Quote from: EC Unique on August 05, 2013, 11:34:00 AM
I'm told that BBC on Saturday was very good with McGeeney in particular giving good analysis. I watched the BBC yesterday and thought Enda McGinley was very good also for a guy with little experience. Maybe the fact that McGeeney and McGinley are both fresh from county set-ups leaves them in a much better position to comment on these games than the much older men on RTE. I will be watching BBC from now on when not at the games.
Yeah did give a good insight to it, but seriously was someone holding his family hostage during the show. I dont think he could be any more dead pan if he tried. If he had a bit more life too him he would be a good watch.
as an aside - Enda McGinley was really good on sunday. hope we get to see more of him and maybe less of his old team mates !
sin bin
only way to punish teams who drag down players or block forward runs illegally
Quote from: neilthemac on August 05, 2013, 12:02:04 PM
sin bin
only way to punish teams who drag down players or block forward runs illegally
That's what the black card will attempt to eradicate. No realistic punishment would stop Cavanagh, or anyone else, doing what he did yesterday. I agree with BCB in that it's the less obvious, out the field, fouls, diving, feigning injury (See McFadden yesterday FFS) that is the real issue. A lad dragging a forward down, when he is clean through on goal, is not pretty, but it's a natural reaction if you are desperate in an important game. If we don't like it, bring in a professional foul rule like they have in soccer. But to pretend that that particular incident is somehow a modern phenomonen, or a Tyrone affliction is completely arse about face.
In a championship game when a man rounds you and has a genuine goal scoring chance you bring him down. That's what we were told from minor level up by coaches. We tried to play the game in a sporting manner but that's just the way it is and was. Nothing has changed in the rules to eradicate this so why should it change.
Brolly should be making an apology to Sean Cavanagh but I don't see that happening any time soon as he's above apologies it seems.
I have no great love for Tyrone but they get a very bad press and have started to get a lot of flak in the media when there are many others as bad as them.
I think Kerry are worse for the systematic fouls than anyone - or at least they were under O'Connor.
Joe on Radio Occupied Six Counties here
Quote from: TY14ED on August 05, 2013, 11:32:15 AM
Quote from: screenexile on August 05, 2013, 10:12:29 AM
I think Joe went OTT but there is no doubting the fact he's right!!
Mickey Harte always talks about how good our games are and how much better the GAA is than everyone else. Talking about Hypocrisy and there's your answer. Mickey Harte and Cavanagh are 2 of our games role models and should be held to a higher standard than diving and systematic fouling!
The defence by Tyronies on here is " but everyone else does it" I will point you to the reply my Mother used for years "if everyone jumped off a bridge would you do it too?"
Yes others are at it but Tyrone the longest and that's ten years of Cavanagh getting lads booked and sent off with his diving and Harte pretending his team don't engage in the dark arts when he's had McMenamim, Gormley and Cavanagh on his teams for years.
Joe should stand up for our games as Mickey Harte doesn't seem to want to bar his outrage at the International Rules. Joe always played the game in the spirit it was intended so he's as well placed as anyone to stand up for what's right!
As a Tyrone man I can't pretend to be happy with the SC tackle vs Monaghan and Monaghan should be very cross that Darren Hughes was booked for a fine tackle. But the anger amongst genuine Tyrone people is that no other county has their faults scrutinised with such ferocity and even hatred as we do. I want those tackles eradicated from the game. Similarly the abuse that SoN took from Kildare full back whilst umpires stood and watched. The really galling point is that the pundits on tv and many posters here are very selective when it comes to this analysis. Just take Sats game for example- Many calling SC a cheat for pulling Darren Hughes down and buying the free. Not one person has mentioned Dessie holding Penrose arm as he went past him along the Cusack sideline conning Reilly into giving a Monaghan free. Or the most blatant dive (rediculous) by Drew Wylie when in attack late in 2nd half. There were enough incidents like this to have merited Monaghan being on the receiving end of a Brolly drama show. End of first half- Peter Harte in attack, blatant jersey pull, Reilly can see the foul but ignores it, another one that springs to mind.
Enda mcGinley on the BBC (who we shall certainly be hearing more from) tried to provide a bit of balance to the weekend games. He highlighted just how defensive Kerry (blanket) can be but Carney, mcStay, Canning etc won't bring themselves to talk in such terms unless it's Ulster, and more so Tyrone teams. The Dubs on sat, for all their glorious attacking football filtered many men back into defence. Harte probably isn't helping the Tyrone case with the RTE interview ban (as big Joe tweeted yesterday, they have their reasons) but regardless, a balanced analysis is the least we should expect. Slating Tyrone is the easy option but the bigger issues are sorting out the rules (applying them consistently), improving standard of referees and officials, and removing the self centred egomen from punditry and replacing with guys that are fair and balanced....Dara O'Se, Anthony Tohill, Ciaran whelan, Dessie Dolan and many others are what we need in the studio. Finally EVERY county, including my own, needs to quickly remove the nasty element from their game.
Screen exile- I'm not taking issue with your points or opinion, just that this particular point sparked a memory. As far back as the mid/late 90's I recall playing Derry in Clones. Think Derry won the game. But my abiding memory is the Bellaghy man beside commenting with a few minutes left that Tyrone will never break us down now. And right enough, when we counted, Derry had 13 men inside their own half with just Joe and his partner up front. No word of a blanket in those days but often it was there.
A few egotistical pundits shouldnt be allowed to tarnish a team, county, manager or player whilst providing absolutely no balance in the debate.
I'll hunt out the DVD to see what you think.
no harm to Tyrone and Tyrone folk, but its not just the tackling. Its the spirit that Tyrone teams seem to play the game. Its the diving / going to ground at the slightest touch. The constant trash talking, and goading other players that way too many of their players engage in (you see it all the time when the camera pans in on a couple of players), the blanket defence, the cynical win at all costs approach that has lent Tyrone to be more lambasted than other counties. Some of the performances in winning their Sams down the years were up there with Mayo's demolition of Donegal yesterday and were notable in the absence of these theatrics
Kerry are certainly no angels. Declan O'Sullivan, who I have great time for, gave a prime example. He went for a ball, couldn't pick it up, ended up on the ground and hand tripped the lad coming out with the ball to stop him counter attacking. That would be black carded next year and rightly so.
Mind you Declan is probably one of the most fouled lads himself because of his strength carrying the ball. Cavan dragged him a lot yesterday and that would be common stuff.
A lot of teams are at it, it has to be said, and that's what I'm hoping the black card will tackle. No pun intended. The man running through and the last ditch foul will stay in the game even if it becomes a red card offence.
and as regards the Brolly outburst, whilst I agree with what he is saying regarding cynical play, he should surely have the manners to apologise to Sean Cavanagh. We are all guilty of not seperating the difference between a man in the heat of battle and man off the field. He was way to personal questioning Cavanagh as a 'man'.
He just defeneded himself on BBC radio there.
Quote from: DennistheMenace on August 05, 2013, 12:33:13 PM
He just defeneded himself on BBC radio there.
Shouldn't he be in court or in chambers?
Quote from: Aaron Boone on August 05, 2013, 12:41:31 PM
Quote from: DennistheMenace on August 05, 2013, 12:33:13 PM
He just defeneded himself on BBC radio there.
Shouldn't he be in court or in chambers?
Summer recess, hes on fun time :P
Im sure it is very convincing too. We all love a good debate with a professional argument winner. At least we cant see the theatrical techniques the huff poise, the finger wagging, the mock outrage etc. Im an admirer of Joe but I dont want him pulling any more of that hysterical crap on TV anymore in the guise of analysing our games. Maybe theres a way back for him after this in punditry, in a way Id hope so because he has some interesting sides to his personality but he needs to apologise to Harte and Cavanagh. HAs he the balls on him to do that - Time will tell.
There'll be no apologies. Joe is loving this. He does make good points - points that other men don't have the courage to make.
Yes he goes over the top and is made to look silly at times. But he is intelligent and knows how to wind people up - it's his job to wind people up isn't it and get them to lose the bap in court and win cases that he shouldn't be winning.
I'm sure Joe has in the past defended people who are as guilty as hell and has went to all sorts of extremes to get them off.
Arguing about Sean Cavanagh and what he did on Saturday is not life or death stuff.
Nobody got hurt. Monaghan lost and deservedly so.
No big deal.
Calm the jets.
Sean and Tyrone peope will get over it.
People seem to think Darren Hughes is superman or something and that a yellow card basically was the reason why Sean Cavanagh shone so well on Saturday against him. There was nothing Hughes would have been able to do differently had he not been on a yellow card. The Gormley and Penrose incidents were very inconclusive from the TV replays, with Mone as likely to have been struck with his own hand than Gormleys and Penrose looked like he pushed high in the chest with the one hand as opposed to punching a man. The referee would have looked a tube if Penrose had been substituted at half time.
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 05, 2013, 01:06:47 PM
People seem to think Darren Hughes is superman or something and that a yellow card basically was the reason why Sean Cavanagh shone so well on Saturday against him. There was nothing Hughes would have been able to do differently had he not been on a yellow card. The Gormley and Penrose incidents were very inconclusive from the TV replays, with Mone as likely to have been struck with his own hand than Gormleys and Penrose looked like he pushed high in the chest with the one hand as opposed to punching a man. The referee would have looked a tube if Penrose had been substituted at half time.
Nonsense Darren Hughes is a superb footballer and more than capable of limiting Cavanaghs influence.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on August 05, 2013, 01:09:11 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 05, 2013, 01:06:47 PM
People seem to think Darren Hughes is superman or something and that a yellow card basically was the reason why Sean Cavanagh shone so well on Saturday against him. There was nothing Hughes would have been able to do differently had he not been on a yellow card. The Gormley and Penrose incidents were very inconclusive from the TV replays, with Mone as likely to have been struck with his own hand than Gormleys and Penrose looked like he pushed high in the chest with the one hand as opposed to punching a man. The referee would have looked a tube if Penrose had been substituted at half time.
Nonsense Darren Hughes is a superb footballer and more than capable of limiting Cavanaghs influence.
And do people really think that a yellow card was the reason he couldn't? A bit of over credit on Hughes. Better players than Hughes haven't been able to contain Cavanagh when he is on form.
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 05, 2013, 01:06:47 PM
People seem to think Darren Hughes is superman or something and that a yellow card basically was the reason why Sean Cavanagh shone so well on Saturday against him. There was nothing Hughes would have been able to do differently had he not been on a yellow card. The Gormley and Penrose incidents were very inconclusive from the TV replays, with Mone as likely to have been struck with his own hand than Gormleys and Penrose looked like he pushed high in the chest with the one hand as opposed to punching a man. The referee would have looked a tube if Penrose had been substituted at half time.
Once Darren got the red card he was walking a very tight rope, he wasn't able to go full blooded in the tackle. Secondly, as the yellow card was unjustified he no doubt was rattled for the next few minutes. Cavanagh hit the next score within a minute and Darren lost him for the next 5 minutes. The dynamic of the next 5 minutes were set by that incident. Instead of having a free out and control of possession Monaghan found themselves having another point against the lead they had built and having to kick the ball out to a Tyrone team rising in confidence. It changed the way the game was going.
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 05, 2013, 01:06:47 PM
People seem to think Darren Hughes is superman or something and that a yellow card basically was the reason why Sean Cavanagh shone so well on Saturday against him. There was nothing Hughes would have been able to do differently had he not been on a yellow card. The Gormley and Penrose incidents were very inconclusive from the TV replays, with Mone as likely to have been struck with his own hand than Gormleys and Penrose looked like he pushed high in the chest with the one hand as opposed to punching a man. The referee would have looked a tube if Penrose had been substituted at half time.
Not sure about the rules but I'm sure by subbing him Tyrone would not get away with it. The ref can still issue the red and Tyrone would have to play with 14. You can say what you like about Hughes first yellow but the fact is he got it and was foolish with the tackle that got him the second yellow. It actually could have been a straight red!
Quote from: DennistheMenace on August 05, 2013, 12:33:13 PM
He just defeneded himself on BBC radio there.
Which station / programme Dennis? thanks
The black card is a wonderful idea for one simple reason. It will get us all talking late into the night and may even lead to the resurrection of the ceili house in the community. A great move by the GAA to keep us all engaged. Brolly and co. are currently paving the way with the trailer. Coming to a pitch near you in 2014 -BLACK CARD DAWN!
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 05, 2013, 01:12:13 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on August 05, 2013, 01:09:11 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 05, 2013, 01:06:47 PM
People seem to think Darren Hughes is superman or something and that a yellow card basically was the reason why Sean Cavanagh shone so well on Saturday against him. There was nothing Hughes would have been able to do differently had he not been on a yellow card. The Gormley and Penrose incidents were very inconclusive from the TV replays, with Mone as likely to have been struck with his own hand than Gormleys and Penrose looked like he pushed high in the chest with the one hand as opposed to punching a man. The referee would have looked a tube if Penrose had been substituted at half time.
Nonsense Darren Hughes is a superb footballer and more than capable of limiting Cavanaghs influence.
And do people really think that a yellow card was the reason he couldn't? A bit of over credit on Hughes. Better players than Hughes haven't been able to contain Cavanagh when he is on form.
I'm not saying he would have totally curtailed Cavanagh but the fact Hughes went off him and Clerkin took over the task played a major factor in his influence.
Quote from: EC Unique on August 05, 2013, 01:13:33 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 05, 2013, 01:06:47 PM
People seem to think Darren Hughes is superman or something and that a yellow card basically was the reason why Sean Cavanagh shone so well on Saturday against him. There was nothing Hughes would have been able to do differently had he not been on a yellow card. The Gormley and Penrose incidents were very inconclusive from the TV replays, with Mone as likely to have been struck with his own hand than Gormleys and Penrose looked like he pushed high in the chest with the one hand as opposed to punching a man. The referee would have looked a tube if Penrose had been substituted at half time.
Not sure about the rules but I'm sure by subbing him Tyrone would not get away with it. The ref can still issue the red and Tyrone would have to play with 14. You can say what you like about Hughes first yellow but the fact is he got it and was foolish with the tackle that got him the second yellow. It actually could have been a straight red!
I assume you are getting the two Hughes mixed up there as it was Kieran who got sent off. His first yellow was 'earned' by Gormley and although he deserved the second to suggest it deserved a straight red is just plain daft. It was a genuine, if careless, attempt to win the ball and a yellow card was the correct call.
Quote from: cadhlancian on August 03, 2013, 08:44:54 PM
RTE, cannot let this continue. Granted , people will watch him, just too see shite like today's rant. However , indiscriminate attacks on amateur players, who burst there asses on a nightly basis, has no place in the GAA, or on national TV. ZERO analysis of the actual game? He clearly has his own agenda, and as of today should be removed from his role as a pundit
Complete rubbish.
It was not indiscriminate. He attacked Cavanagh based on the footage we all saw. Instead of attacking JB what about the other pundits who sit on their holes week after week ignoring whats happening before their eyes.
Cavanagh cheated. He accepted the punishment that the game permits.
Whats wrong with the pundits calling cheats and cynics exactly what they are?
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 05, 2013, 01:06:47 PM
People seem to think Darren Hughes is superman or something and that a yellow card basically was the reason why Sean Cavanagh shone so well on Saturday against him. There was nothing Hughes would have been able to do differently had he not been on a yellow card. The Gormley and Penrose incidents were very inconclusive from the TV replays, with Mone as likely to have been struck with his own hand than Gormleys and Penrose looked like he pushed high in the chest with the one hand as opposed to punching a man. The referee would have looked a tube if Penrose had been substituted at half time.
2 points -
1. Aidan O'Sé got booked earlier than Darren did against Donegal and went on to be MOM. To argue that the Darren Hughe's booking was a game changer is nonsense in my view.
2. Penrose could not have been subbed at half time - the referee would not have permitted the sub.
Joe Brolly used to love Tyrone.
But time has moved on and Tyrone haven't been winners for a while. Joe has fallen out of love with Tyrone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWVLXxrttHo
Quote from: orangeman on August 05, 2013, 02:21:49 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 05, 2013, 01:06:47 PM
People seem to think Darren Hughes is superman or something and that a yellow card basically was the reason why Sean Cavanagh shone so well on Saturday against him. There was nothing Hughes would have been able to do differently had he not been on a yellow card. The Gormley and Penrose incidents were very inconclusive from the TV replays, with Mone as likely to have been struck with his own hand than Gormleys and Penrose looked like he pushed high in the chest with the one hand as opposed to punching a man. The referee would have looked a tube if Penrose had been substituted at half time.
2 points -
1. Aidan O'Sé got booked earlier than Darren did against Donegal and went on to be MOM. To argue that the Darren Hughe's booking was a game changer is nonsense in my view.
2. Penrose could not have been subbed at half time - the referee would not have permitted the sub.
Orangeman, AOS wasn't marking one of the best players in the country and he had no one marking him. He played very well in open spaces against a team that were a busted flush.
Quote from: orangeman on August 05, 2013, 02:24:33 PM
Joe Brolly used to love Tyrone.
But time has moved on and Tyrone haven't been winners for a while. Joe has fallen out of love with Tyrone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWVLXxrttHo
More he loved winding Spillane up, thank loving Tyrone.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 05, 2013, 02:26:18 PM
Quote from: orangeman on August 05, 2013, 02:21:49 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 05, 2013, 01:06:47 PM
People seem to think Darren Hughes is superman or something and that a yellow card basically was the reason why Sean Cavanagh shone so well on Saturday against him. There was nothing Hughes would have been able to do differently had he not been on a yellow card. The Gormley and Penrose incidents were very inconclusive from the TV replays, with Mone as likely to have been struck with his own hand than Gormleys and Penrose looked like he pushed high in the chest with the one hand as opposed to punching a man. The referee would have looked a tube if Penrose had been substituted at half time.
2 points -
1. Aidan O'Sé got booked earlier than Darren did against Donegal and went on to be MOM. To argue that the Darren Hughe's booking was a game changer is nonsense in my view.
2. Penrose could not have been subbed at half time - the referee would not have permitted the sub.
Orangeman, AOS wasn't marking one of the best players in the country and he had no one marking him. He played very well in open spaces against a team that were a busted flush.
The same open space that Tyrone and Monaghan played in on Saturday night ?.
Quote from: orangeman on August 05, 2013, 02:29:50 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 05, 2013, 02:26:18 PM
Quote from: orangeman on August 05, 2013, 02:21:49 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 05, 2013, 01:06:47 PM
People seem to think Darren Hughes is superman or something and that a yellow card basically was the reason why Sean Cavanagh shone so well on Saturday against him. There was nothing Hughes would have been able to do differently had he not been on a yellow card. The Gormley and Penrose incidents were very inconclusive from the TV replays, with Mone as likely to have been struck with his own hand than Gormleys and Penrose looked like he pushed high in the chest with the one hand as opposed to punching a man. The referee would have looked a tube if Penrose had been substituted at half time.
2 points -
1. Aidan O'Sé got booked earlier than Darren did against Donegal and went on to be MOM. To argue that the Darren Hughe's booking was a game changer is nonsense in my view.
2. Penrose could not have been subbed at half time - the referee would not have permitted the sub.
Orangeman, AOS wasn't marking one of the best players in the country and he had no one marking him. He played very well in open spaces against a team that were a busted flush.
The same open space that Tyrone and Monaghan played in on Saturday night ?.
There was no pressure on AOS, the game was over after 10 minutes and Donegal were going through the motions. There was very little space available to any players on Saturday evening. Every ball was a battle and the game literally was in the balance until the very end. The stakes may have been the same but the game play was completely different. AOS could afford to not go into the tackles as they were not required to be made. Darren Hughes would have been more forceful in his play if he hadn't been on a yellow, also the mental impact of receiving a yellow card erroneously which also coincided with the opposition making a comeback was a major factor.
Quote from: J OGorman on August 05, 2013, 01:16:33 PM
Quote from: DennistheMenace on August 05, 2013, 12:33:13 PM
He just defeneded himself on BBC radio there.
Which station / programme Dennis? thanks
Joe Brolly defends Tyrone tactic outburst Joe Brolly has called for a change in gaelic games rules TV commentator Joe Brolly has defended a passionate on-air outburst about the tactics of Tyrone in an All-Ireland Gaelic Football quarter final.
He told BBC Northern Ireland's Talkback that it was justified.
He said the rules of gaelic games need to change to put an end to "cynical fouling".
His angry analysis of Tyrone's narrow win over Monaghan became an internet sensation.
He called a rugby-style tackle on a Monaghan player going for goal "a disgrace".
Tyrone player Sean Cavanagh brought down Conor McManus just as it looked like the Monaghan man might score.
But Brolly was furious even though what Cavanagh did in Dublin's Croke Park is allowed in GAA rules.
"It is absolutely disgraceful. They have achieved something absolutely rotten," he said on RTE television's post-match analysis.
His angry tirade became an internet sensation and tens of thousands watched it on YouTube.
"It is the antithesis of what gaelic games are about," he railed.
"You are supposed to be able to look your opponent in the face. What do we teach kids? Respect for yourself, respect for your opponent. I take an under-12 team. If any of them did that they wouldn't play for the team again.
"I'll not be standing up for that."
Speaking on Talkback on Monday, Brolly said he had been very angry and felt very strongly about how "cynical fouling" was becoming "a template for the game" for young people.
"Sean Cavanagh was the straw that broke the camel's back. We need to stop this, we are the only sport in the world that tolerates cynical fouling," he said.
"He is probably the best footballer of the modern generation, but this is poisoning the game... To be fair, he gave a post-match interview where he said: 'I don't like this... but we are just exploiting the system as it stands.'"
Brolly condemned what he called the "win-at-all-costs" mentality. He said clearly Tyrone supporters would not agree, but he felt strongly.
"It is beginning to poison the ethos of the game," he said.
But, he pointed out that, given the response to what happened at the match, the GAA rule makers now had "the wind at their backs" and were in a position to change the rules.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 05, 2013, 02:34:16 PM
Quote from: orangeman on August 05, 2013, 02:29:50 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 05, 2013, 02:26:18 PM
Quote from: orangeman on August 05, 2013, 02:21:49 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 05, 2013, 01:06:47 PM
People seem to think Darren Hughes is superman or something and that a yellow card basically was the reason why Sean Cavanagh shone so well on Saturday against him. There was nothing Hughes would have been able to do differently had he not been on a yellow card. The Gormley and Penrose incidents were very inconclusive from the TV replays, with Mone as likely to have been struck with his own hand than Gormleys and Penrose looked like he pushed high in the chest with the one hand as opposed to punching a man. The referee would have looked a tube if Penrose had been substituted at half time.
2 points -
1. Aidan O'Sé got booked earlier than Darren did against Donegal and went on to be MOM. To argue that the Darren Hughe's booking was a game changer is nonsense in my view.
2. Penrose could not have been subbed at half time - the referee would not have permitted the sub.
Orangeman, AOS wasn't marking one of the best players in the country and he had no one marking him. He played very well in open spaces against a team that were a busted flush.
The same open space that Tyrone and Monaghan played in on Saturday night ?.
There was no pressure on AOS, the game was over after 10 minutes and Donegal were going through the motions. There was very little space available to any players on Saturday evening. Every ball was a battle and the game literally was in the balance until the very end. The stakes may have been the same but the game play was completely different. AOS could afford to not go into the tackles as they were not required to be made. Darren Hughes would have been more forceful in his play if he hadn't been on a yellow, also the mental impact of receiving a yellow card erroneously which also coincided with the opposition making a comeback was a major factor.
I know what you're saying but Aidan O'Shea picked up an early yellow card and had to deal with it. It was still an All Ireland quarter final.
Granted it wasn't close yesterday on the scoreboard but I wouldn't accept that Darren's yellow was the game changer.
We'll agree to differ. Straight after the yellow card Cavanagh got to grips in the MF area and Tyrone levelled the game up with 3 quick points, Monaghan went ahead and Tyrone quickly equalised. Monaghan never regained the lead after that. It changed the whole dynamic of the game.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 05, 2013, 02:48:45 PM
We'll agree to differ. Straight after the yellow card Cavanagh got to grips in the MF area and Tyrone levelled the game up with 3 quick points, Monaghan went ahead and Tyrone quickly equalised. Monaghan never regained the lead after that. It changed the whole dynamic of the game.
We'll agree to differ.
Cavanagh has been on fire all year.
Talk of man marking Cavanagh from midfield was foolish in my view given his form - Darren needed more help and he didn't get it from his team mates.
Quote from: orangeman on August 05, 2013, 02:21:49 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 05, 2013, 01:06:47 PM
People seem to think Darren Hughes is superman or something and that a yellow card basically was the reason why Sean Cavanagh shone so well on Saturday against him. There was nothing Hughes would have been able to do differently had he not been on a yellow card. The Gormley and Penrose incidents were very inconclusive from the TV replays, with Mone as likely to have been struck with his own hand than Gormleys and Penrose looked like he pushed high in the chest with the one hand as opposed to punching a man. The referee would have looked a tube if Penrose had been substituted at half time.
2 points -
1. Aidan O'Sé got booked earlier than Darren did against Donegal and went on to be MOM. To argue that the Darren Hughe's booking was a game changer is nonsense in my view.
2. Penrose could not have been subbed at half time - the referee would not have permitted the sub.
But do we know when the referee actually made the decision in his head to send Penrose off - if it were straight away at the time of the incident then why didn't he. Did he see a replay, or did he just mull over it. Its possible that Penrose could have been subbed in the intervening period, what would have happened then? Do referees at County level deal with all substitutions i.e. do they get a wee piece of paper or is that handled separately on the sideline?
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 05, 2013, 02:55:17 PM
Quote from: LCohen on August 05, 2013, 01:35:06 PM
Quote from: cadhlancian on August 03, 2013, 08:44:54 PM
RTE, cannot let this continue. Granted , people will watch him, just too see shite like today's rant. However , indiscriminate attacks on amateur players, who burst there asses on a nightly basis, has no place in the GAA, or on national TV. ZERO analysis of the actual game? He clearly has his own agenda, and as of today should be removed from his role as a pundit
Complete rubbish.
It was not indiscriminate. He attacked Cavanagh based on the footage we all saw. Instead of attacking JB what about the other pundits who sit on their holes week after week ignoring whats happening before their eyes.
Cavanagh cheated. He accepted the punishment that the game permits.
Whats wrong with the pundits calling cheats and cynics exactly what they are?
You've did a successful job of contradicting yourself in one paragraph. Why has JB himself been sitting on his hole week after week, year after year ignoring what's happening before his eyes before last Saturday? ;)
He certainly is not guilt free. But he has at last stepped forward and decided that enough is enough. Now is not the time to attack him but to support him
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 05, 2013, 02:57:36 PM
Quote from: orangeman on August 05, 2013, 02:21:49 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 05, 2013, 01:06:47 PM
People seem to think Darren Hughes is superman or something and that a yellow card basically was the reason why Sean Cavanagh shone so well on Saturday against him. There was nothing Hughes would have been able to do differently had he not been on a yellow card. The Gormley and Penrose incidents were very inconclusive from the TV replays, with Mone as likely to have been struck with his own hand than Gormleys and Penrose looked like he pushed high in the chest with the one hand as opposed to punching a man. The referee would have looked a tube if Penrose had been substituted at half time.
2 points -
1. Aidan O'Sé got booked earlier than Darren did against Donegal and went on to be MOM. To argue that the Darren Hughe's booking was a game changer is nonsense in my view.
2. Penrose could not have been subbed at half time - the referee would not have permitted the sub.
But do we know when the referee actually made the decision in his head to send Penrose off - if it were straight away at the time of the incident then why didn't he. Did he see a replay, or did he just mull over it. Its possible that Penrose could have been subbed in the intervening period, what would have happened then? Do referees at County level deal with all substitutions i.e. do they get a wee piece of paper or is that handled separately on the sideline?
Pat Doherty from Croke Park came on to the radio yesterday to explain that the sub would not have been permitted. The officials would have rejected the sub.
Darren Hughes is a very good footballer, and was unlucky to be booked, but even before the game I felt he was never for getting to grips with Sean Cavanagh. I think Monaghan would have take the point through on goal anyway under instruction. They were in a similar position with Gallogly and the short kick out and they took the point. Malachy O Rourke instructs his players to go out and put goal chances over the bar.... Joe logic.
Quote from: rrhf on August 05, 2013, 03:13:51 PM
Darren Hughes is a very good footballer, and was unlucky to be booked, but even before the game I felt he was never for getting to grips with Sean Cavanagh. I think Monaghan would have take the point through on goal anyway under instruction. They were in a similar position with Gallogly and the short kick out and they took the point. Malachy O Rourke instructs his players to go out and put goal chances over the bar.... Joe logic.
I agree that DH would struggle with marking Cavanagh, very few people would mark him on current form, but DH was hamstrung by a bad refereeing decision which had a major bearing on the ebb and flow of the game. As far as the Gollogly shot, I simply think it was wrong man in the circumstances, if it had been McManus or Freeman it was a goal. Gollogly is not renowned for his scoring return.
Big Packie has saved them from more prolific goal getters and on bigger occasions than those lads to be honest. I think there was obvious sideline instruction to take the point just as Joe says Sean Cavanagh had been told to rip men down when he runs into the full back line. Where Joes analysis is flawed is that he assumes a complete lack of individuality and its all game plan. This ironically was what he was fawning over Donegal for.
Quote from: rrhf on August 05, 2013, 03:13:51 PM
Darren Hughes is a very good footballer, and was unlucky to be booked, but even before the game I felt he was never for getting to grips with Sean Cavanagh. I think Monaghan would have take the point through on goal anyway under instruction. They were in a similar position with Gallogly and the short kick out and they took the point. Malachy O Rourke instructs his players to go out and put goal chances over the bar.... Joe logic.
Not a chance! McManus could have dropped off and take the the point easily but instead backed himself to go past the 2 men and go for it!!
With regard to all the Derry bashing of 2001 and 2006 and how we obviously started the negativity I would take you back to 1995 and the first classic case of the poorer team using negativity and win at all costs mentality to beat the better team!!
Anyway for the record I can't see Tyrone overcoming Dublin or Mayo as they do not have the pace/power for them. A Dublin/Mayo final and it could be anybodies!
Christ - you are like a broken record Loopy
I've just looked back the game.
At half time Dessie Mone and Penrose get into a wee spat.
The Saturday game panellists talk about the incident and review it.
Pat Spillane says that the ref might have to take action after half time.
Ironically Joe who went on a rant about cynical play, says in response to Pat, that Dessie "deserved" the slap that he got from Penrose.
Which goes to prove that Joe is just constantly winding Pat and Colm and everybody else up.
It's entertainment.
Quote from: screenexile on August 05, 2013, 03:42:41 PMWith regard to all the Derry bashing of 2001 and 2006 and how we obviously started the negativity I would take you back to 1995 and the first classic case of the poorer team using negativity and win at all costs mentality to beat the better team!!
But sure Joe said that Fay Devlin and them boys were as honest as they come ::)
Quote from: Throw ball on August 04, 2013, 02:29:05 AM
Some amount of Tyrone people giving out about Brolly tonight. My feelings are that he really lost the run of himself today just like he did when he criticised Paul Grimley earlier in the season. On both occasions the crux of his argument was correct. His delivery was lacking though. Maybe instead of Michael Lyster presenting the show a high court judge could do the job!
For those who say 100% of players would do the same as Cavanagh I would point out that Armagh, and Tony Kernan in particular, let Cain Mackey run 40 yards to score a goal for Cavan with no effort to take him out. Armagh lost that match. Tyrone won today. There is cynical tackling in the game because as the rules stand it pays.
And at all stages of that run Armagh fans were shouting ffs pull him down, stop him. Thats what it takes to win.
If Brolly 'wants nothing to do with that' I take it he'll be handing back his big cheque from RTE and hanging up the mic?
I just took a look back at the game to see were Tyrone way more cynical than usual, or even way more than Monaghan on the day? I didn't try and ref the game myself, but I tried to record the fouls the Ref did give against the new Black Card rules for cynical fouls. There were a couple of other fouls on both sides that were marginal, but probably not as per the definition of cynical. I also did not judge lunges that knocked a player as 'dragging him down'. If I did Dick Clerkin would have picked up two black cards.
Remember the definition of the cynical foul is..
1) 'to deliberately pull down an opponent'
(2) 'to deliberately trip an opponent'
(3) 'to deliberately body collide with an opponent after he has played the ball away''
(4) 'to threaten or use abusive language or gestures to an opponent'
(5) 'to remonstrate in an aggressive manner with a match official'
I found that in the early days Monaghan were more cynical than Tyrone. The early black card type fouls were...
7 mins Tyrone 3, Clarke. Yellow Card. Tripping. Midfield.
9 Mins. Monaghan 11 Gollogly. Pulling Down. Own 65
11 mins. Monaghan 14 Hughes. Pulling Down. Opponents 20.
12 min. Monaghan 12 Malone. Yellow Card. Tripping/Pulling down. Own 65.
15 mins Tyrone 4. McCarron. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Own 20.
16 Mins Monaghan 9. Hughes. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Inside own 45.
Even at that only McCarron's yellow was your clear cut case for Tyrone. Clarkes was actually a trip on a lad making a defensive run when Tyrone had the ball. All of Monaghan's, bar Hughes unfortunate one, were fairly obvious black card momentum killers.
Hughes' foul that got him his yellow would have got him a black, and this is Hardy's fear because that was really a dive. But as I said I didn't try to ref the game myself.
Interestingly, after that spate there was a period of little or no cynicism, and tellingly, that was the period where Tyrone kicked on and probably won the game. Even allowing for Hughes' dilution as a marking force on Cavanagh, the rest of the Monaghan team also stopped fouling as much.
Then from 27 minutes to half time we had another spate of 'black card' type fouls, except now Tyrone were in front, and committing most of them, with some of them being textbook. The worst one was probably Duffy's for Monaghan's though.
27 Mins. Monaghan 2. Duffy. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Inside Opponents 65.
30 Mins. Tyrone 5. McGinley. Pulling Down. Inside own 65.
31 Mins. Tyrone 15. Penrose. Blocking the Run. Opponents 65.
32 Mins. Tyrone 15 Penrose. Pulling Down. Inside Opponents 65.
Interesting that Penrose did two of these, although one on Mone in particular looked like Mone dived. Either way Penrose was losing the rag a little, and it's not a shock that he was involved in that altercation at half time when you see the way he seemed to be on the edge just before the break.
The second half was cynicism free until the dying minutes apart from Cavanaghs intervention.
48 Mins . Tyrone 9. Cavanagh. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Inside Own 20.
60 Minutes. Monaghan 24. Freeman. Yellow Card. Opponents 45.
61 Mins. Tyrone 3. Clarke. Pulling Down. Outside Own 20.
69 Mins. Tyrone 6. Harte. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Opponents 45.
Again, Freeman's foul and Harte's foul were the epitome of the cynical foul.
Darren Hughes and Clerkin, as stated, also had a couple of dicey ones, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt that they were awkward as opposed to 'pulling down'.
Overall, Monaghan had what I would call 6 black cards, and Tyrone had 8. It seemed, however, that Monaghan started in that frame of mind, and went away from it after half time, notwithstanding a couple of dicey ones from their midfielders. Tyrone seemed to ratchet it up to protect the lead at the end of the first half, and again at the end of the second half. That's probably why they are being singled out, because their fouls are coming at tense portions of the game, and usually defending a lead. Harte's yellow was like a demostration video of why the card was brought in, but as I said, Duffy's and Freeman's were as bad, not to mind some of the early stuff from Monaghan.
Again, way too much of it, from both sides, but Sean Cavanagh's incident was far from being the only example of cynicism, it's just the one that Joe Brolly decided to jump on for some reason.
Quote from: NaomhBridAbú on August 05, 2013, 10:14:50 AM
Quote from: screenexile on August 05, 2013, 10:12:29 AM
I think Joe went OTT but there is no doubting the fact he's right!!
Mickey Harte always talks about how good our games are and how much better the GAA is than everyone else. Talking about Hypocrisy and there's your answer. Mickey Harte and Cavanagh are 2 of our games role models and should be held to a higher standard than diving and systematic fouling!
The defence by Tyronies on here is " but everyone else does it" I will point you to the reply my Mother used for years "if everyone jumped off a bridge would you do it too?"
Yes others are at it but Tyrone the longest and that's ten years of Cavanagh getting lads booked and sent off with his diving and Harte pretending his team don't engage in the dark arts when he's had McMenamim, Gormley and Cavanagh on his teams for years.
Joe should stand up for our games as Mickey Harte doesn't seem to want to bar his outrage at the International Rules. Joe always played the game in the spirit it was intended so he's as well placed as anyone to stand up for what's right!
thats a fairly contentious post there - final line about Joe always playing the game in the right spirit just lets you down. alot.
Absolutely correct.....there was no one better than Joe Brolly at the old pull down the defender and buy a free for yourself than himself. Cheating? Take a look at Derry v Tyrone in 2006.....Raymond Mulgrew was systematically kicked and pulled up and down the pitch in the first half constantly....and Joe loved it
(http://i.imgur.com/vCcuiu3.jpg)
Its made the UTV news now and was on Nolan this morning ha ha
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 05, 2013, 05:02:08 PM
I just took a look back at the game to see were Tyrone way more cynical than usual, or even way more than Monaghan on the day? I didn't try and ref the game myself, but I tried to record the fouls the Ref did give against the new Black Card rules for cynical fouls. There were a couple of other fouls on both sides that were marginal, but probably not as per the definition of cynical. I also did not judge lunges that knocked a player as 'dragging him down'. If I did Dick Clerkin would have picked up two black cards.
Remember the definition of the cynical foul is..
1) 'to deliberately pull down an opponent'
(2) 'to deliberately trip an opponent'
(3) 'to deliberately body collide with an opponent after he has played the ball away''
(4) 'to threaten or use abusive language or gestures to an opponent'
(5) 'to remonstrate in an aggressive manner with a match official'
I found that in the early days Monaghan were more cynical than Tyrone. The early black card type fouls were...
7 mins Tyrone 3, Clarke. Yellow Card. Tripping. Midfield.
9 Mins. Monaghan 11 Gollogly. Pulling Down. Own 65
11 mins. Monaghan 14 Hughes. Pulling Down. Opponents 20.
12 min. Monaghan 12 Malone. Yellow Card. Tripping/Pulling down. Own 65.
15 mins Tyrone 4. McCarron. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Own 20.
16 Mins Monaghan 9. Hughes. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Inside own 45.
Even at that only McCarron's yellow was your clear cut case for Tyrone. Clarkes was actually a trip on a lad making a defensive run when Tyrone had the ball. All of Monaghan's, bar Hughes unfortunate one, were fairly obvious black card momentum killers.
Hughes' foul that got him his yellow would have got him a black, and this is Hardy's fear because that was really a dive. But as I said I didn't try to ref the game myself.
Interestingly, after that spate there was a period of little or no cynicism, and tellingly, that was the period where Tyrone kicked on and probably won the game. Even allowing for Hughes' dilution as a marking force on Cavanagh, the rest of the Monaghan team also stopped fouling as much.
Then from 27 minutes to half time we had another spate of 'black card' type fouls, except now Tyrone were in front, and committing most of them, with some of them being textbook. The worst one was probably Duffy's for Monaghan's though.
27 Mins. Monaghan 2. Duffy. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Inside Opponents 65.
30 Mins. Tyrone 5. McGinley. Pulling Down. Inside own 65.
31 Mins. Tyrone 15. Penrose. Blocking the Run. Opponents 65.
32 Mins. Tyrone 15 Penrose. Pulling Down. Inside Opponents 65.
Interesting that Penrose did two of these, although one on Mone in particular looked like Mone dived. Either way Penrose was losing the rag a little, and it's not a shock that he was involved in that altercation at half time when you see the way he seemed to be on the edge just before the break.
The second half was cynicism free until the dying minutes apart from Cavanaghs intervention.
48 Mins . Tyrone 9. Cavanagh. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Inside Own 20.
60 Minutes. Monaghan 24. Freeman. Yellow Card. Opponents 45.
61 Mins. Tyrone 3. Clarke. Pulling Down. Outside Own 20.
69 Mins. Tyrone 6. Harte. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Opponents 45.
Again, Freeman's foul and Harte's foul were the epitome of the cynical foul.
Darren Hughes and Clerkin, as stated, also had a couple of dicey ones, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt that they were awkward as opposed to 'pulling down'.
Overall, Monaghan had what I would call 6 black cards, and Tyrone had 8. It seemed, however, that Monaghan started in that frame of mind, and went away from it after half time, notwithstanding a couple of dicey ones from their midfielders. Tyrone seemed to ratchet it up to protect the lead at the end of the first half, and again at the end of the second half. That's probably why they are being singled out, because their fouls are coming at tense portions of the game, and usually defending a lead. Harte's yellow was like a demostration video of why the card was brought in, but as I said, Duffy's and Freeman's were as bad, not to mind some of the early stuff from Monaghan.
Again, way too much of it, from both sides, but Sean Cavanagh's incident was far from being the only example of cynicism, it's just the one that Joe Brolly decided to jump on for some reason.
Now that's the level of stats and analysis I'd expect from professional pundits on TV. Not biased, premeditated rants. Good post AZ
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 05, 2013, 07:48:09 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 05, 2013, 05:02:08 PM
I just took a look back at the game to see were Tyrone way more cynical than usual, or even way more than Monaghan on the day? I didn't try and ref the game myself, but I tried to record the fouls the Ref did give against the new Black Card rules for cynical fouls. There were a couple of other fouls on both sides that were marginal, but probably not as per the definition of cynical. I also did not judge lunges that knocked a player as 'dragging him down'. If I did Dick Clerkin would have picked up two black cards.
Remember the definition of the cynical foul is..
1) 'to deliberately pull down an opponent'
(2) 'to deliberately trip an opponent'
(3) 'to deliberately body collide with an opponent after he has played the ball away''
(4) 'to threaten or use abusive language or gestures to an opponent'
(5) 'to remonstrate in an aggressive manner with a match official'
I found that in the early days Monaghan were more cynical than Tyrone. The early black card type fouls were...
7 mins Tyrone 3, Clarke. Yellow Card. Tripping. Midfield.
9 Mins. Monaghan 11 Gollogly. Pulling Down. Own 65
11 mins. Monaghan 14 Hughes. Pulling Down. Opponents 20.
12 min. Monaghan 12 Malone. Yellow Card. Tripping/Pulling down. Own 65.
15 mins Tyrone 4. McCarron. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Own 20.
16 Mins Monaghan 9. Hughes. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Inside own 45.
Even at that only McCarron's yellow was your clear cut case for Tyrone. Clarkes was actually a trip on a lad making a defensive run when Tyrone had the ball. All of Monaghan's, bar Hughes unfortunate one, were fairly obvious black card momentum killers.
Hughes' foul that got him his yellow would have got him a black, and this is Hardy's fear because that was really a dive. But as I said I didn't try to ref the game myself.
Interestingly, after that spate there was a period of little or no cynicism, and tellingly, that was the period where Tyrone kicked on and probably won the game. Even allowing for Hughes' dilution as a marking force on Cavanagh, the rest of the Monaghan team also stopped fouling as much.
Then from 27 minutes to half time we had another spate of 'black card' type fouls, except now Tyrone were in front, and committing most of them, with some of them being textbook. The worst one was probably Duffy's for Monaghan's though.
27 Mins. Monaghan 2. Duffy. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Inside Opponents 65.
30 Mins. Tyrone 5. McGinley. Pulling Down. Inside own 65.
31 Mins. Tyrone 15. Penrose. Blocking the Run. Opponents 65.
32 Mins. Tyrone 15 Penrose. Pulling Down. Inside Opponents 65.
Interesting that Penrose did two of these, although one on Mone in particular looked like Mone dived. Either way Penrose was losing the rag a little, and it's not a shock that he was involved in that altercation at half time when you see the way he seemed to be on the edge just before the break.
The second half was cynicism free until the dying minutes apart from Cavanaghs intervention.
48 Mins . Tyrone 9. Cavanagh. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Inside Own 20.
60 Minutes. Monaghan 24. Freeman. Yellow Card. Opponents 45.
61 Mins. Tyrone 3. Clarke. Pulling Down. Outside Own 20.
69 Mins. Tyrone 6. Harte. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Opponents 45.
Again, Freeman's foul and Harte's foul were the epitome of the cynical foul.
Darren Hughes and Clerkin, as stated, also had a couple of dicey ones, but I gave them the benefit of the doubt that they were awkward as opposed to 'pulling down'.
Overall, Monaghan had what I would call 6 black cards, and Tyrone had 8. It seemed, however, that Monaghan started in that frame of mind, and went away from it after half time, notwithstanding a couple of dicey ones from their midfielders. Tyrone seemed to ratchet it up to protect the lead at the end of the first half, and again at the end of the second half. That's probably why they are being singled out, because their fouls are coming at tense portions of the game, and usually defending a lead. Harte's yellow was like a demostration video of why the card was brought in, but as I said, Duffy's and Freeman's were as bad, not to mind some of the early stuff from Monaghan.
Again, way too much of it, from both sides, but Sean Cavanagh's incident was far from being the only example of cynicism, it's just the one that Joe Brolly decided to jump on for some reason.
Now that's the level of stats and analysis I'd expect from professional pundits on TV. Not biased, premeditated rants. Good post AZ
Really good post, instead of the brolly led hysteria, it's good to see someone having a proper look at the issue.
It would be interesting to compare this against other games in the championship to see if its in any way out of the ordinary. (And I would suspect it isn't)
G AZ go out and do the garden or something, that stuff was hard enough to watch first time round
Now this is interesting: the FRC black card video shown at Congress & posted by one Joe Brolly & with no Tyrone on it, apart from a foul on Stevie O'Neill! Maybe everyone does do it Joe...
http://balls.ie/gaa/here-is-the-video-shown-to-at-the-gaa-congress-highlighting-the-need-for-the-black-card/ (http://balls.ie/gaa/here-is-the-video-shown-to-at-the-gaa-congress-highlighting-the-need-for-the-black-card/)
Regards the weekend Joe brolly. I agree Sean Cavanagh commuted a foul but he was punished for it but what annoys me is that if the monaghan forward had managed to score a goal or point from play the ref would have had to disallow same as as many times as I have watched the replays McManus had taken seven steps as opposed to four without hopping the ball
I dunno..... Brolly has always been a shit stirring, disrespectful self publicist. To be fair to him his recent rant seemed genuine rather than orchestrated. But a bit late in the day for Joe to latch on to the high integrity platform.
I think he should go. But so also should O'Rourke. By his own admission he was a member of a high achieving but very cynical and often thuggish Meath side. Very fond of the reverse elbow movement was our Colm as a defender approached him from behind after he won the ball. Always found it a bit rich to listen to O'Rourke lecturing about the evils of "pullin & draggin" when he was a past master of it himself ... particularly in the replayed AI final v Cork. Colm now is mostly an "I'll take the handy money" friendly old uncle type of analysist.
Spillane was (like O'Rourke) a brilliant footballer. But in his hey day he could track back in to his own defense and get on the ball like a Galvin or Dooher and he was a tremendous exponent in the olympic skills long before "puke football" Tyrone. Leaving all that aside he is a very poor speaker and a faded sensationalist style analysist.
Point being... all 3 are past their sell by date and are a poor return for license payer's money. Get rid of Brolly. Get rid of all of them.
Quote from: ross matt on August 05, 2013, 09:08:20 PM
I dunno..... Brolly has always been a shit stirring, disrespectful self publicist. To be fair to him his recent rant seemed genuine rather than orchestrated. But a bit late in the day for Joe to latch on to the high integrity platform.
I think he should go. But so also should O'Rourke. By his own admission he was a member of a high achieving but very cynical and often thuggish Mayo side. Very fond of the reverse elbow movement was our Colm as a defender approached him from behind after he won the ball. Always found it a bit rich to listen to O'Rourke lecturing about the evils of "pullin & draggin" when he was a past master of it himself ... particularly in the replayed AI final v Cork. Colm now is mostly an "I'll take the handy money" friendly old uncle type of analysist.
Spillane was (like O'Rourke) a brilliant footballer. But in his hey day he could track back in to his own defense and get on the ball like a Galvin or Dooher and he was a tremendous exponent in the olympic skills long before "puke football" Tyrone. Leaving all that aside he is a very poor speaker and a faded sensationalist style analysist.
Point being... all 3 are past their sell by date and are a poor return for license payer's money. Get rid of Brolly. Get rid of all of them.
Somewhere...... a village is missing its idiot.
Quote from: Jinxy on August 05, 2013, 09:12:45 PM
Quote from: ross matt on August 05, 2013, 09:08:20 PM
I dunno..... Brolly has always been a shit stirring, disrespectful self publicist. To be fair to him his recent rant seemed genuine rather than orchestrated. But a bit late in the day for Joe to latch on to the high integrity platform.
I think he should go. But so also should O'Rourke. By his own admission he was a member of a high achieving but very cynical and often thuggish Mayo side. Very fond of the reverse elbow movement was our Colm as a defender approached him from behind after he won the ball. Always found it a bit rich to listen to O'Rourke lecturing about the evils of "pullin & draggin" when he was a past master of it himself ... particularly in the replayed AI final v Cork. Colm now is mostly an "I'll take the handy money" friendly old uncle type of analysist.
Spillane was (like O'Rourke) a brilliant footballer. But in his hey day he could track back in to his own defense and get on the ball like a Galvin or Dooher and he was a tremendous exponent in the olympic skills long before "puke football" Tyrone. Leaving all that aside he is a very poor speaker and a faded sensationalist style analysist.
Point being... all 3 are past their sell by date and are a poor return for license payer's money. Get rid of Brolly. Get rid of all of them.
Somewhere...... a village is missing its idiot.
Edited the Meath instead of Mayo error. Stand by the rest of the post. Playing the man instead of the ball Jinxy. Colm would be proud of you.
Colm O`Rourke was one of the greatest forwards i seen, best player i seen play for Meath and one of the few players Dublin feared anytime they played them, still remember his performance back in 93 when he had a stormer even though on the losing team. That Meath team was full of hard men like Lyons, O`Malley, Harnan, Gerry Mc, O`Rourke, C Coyle etc rather went through you than round. They were over physical at the time many would say dirty, i wouldnt have called them cynical but there were very confrontational especially with Cork. As for him pullin and draggin, any time i say him play he literally had men hanging of him, Got a ferocious hit from K barr one time in 91,many man been stretched off with it, but got up and played on, and concentrated on winning the game not getting back at Barr!
To be honest I think Joe is actually an undercover Tyrone fan and was conspiring with Mickey Harte to build a siege mentality to spur on the Tyrone players ;)
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 05, 2013, 09:27:20 PM
Colm O`Rourke was one of the greatest forwards i seen, best player i seen play for Meath and one of the few players Dublin feared anytime they played them, still remember his performance back in 93 when he had a stormer even though on the losing team. That Meath team was full of hard men like Lyons, O`Malley, Harnan, Gerry Mc, O`Rourke, C Coyle etc rather went through you than round. They were over physical at the time many would say dirty, i wouldnt have called them cynical but there were very confrontational especially with Cork. As for him pullin and draggin, any time i say him play he literally had men hanging of him, Got a ferocious hit from K barr one time in 91,many man been stretched off with it, but got up and played on, and concentrated on winning the game not getting back at Barr!
O'Rourke's ability as a player or his physical toughness is not in doubt. That hit you refer to was a sandwich between Barr & Heary. He was knocked out, concussed but came back on and played on despite having no memory of doing so.
But by his own admission (after McEntee was sent off) he pulled down more Cork players than any other Meath player in the 2nd half of the replayed AI final. Intelligent, focussed but cynical. Totally hypocritical to have him on tv preaching about the merits of "free flowing football". He is well past his sell by date. RTE needs to do a clear out.
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on August 05, 2013, 07:57:14 PM
Really good post, instead of the brolly led hysteria, it's good to see someone having a proper look at the issue.
It would be interesting to compare this against other games in the championship to see if its in any way out of the ordinary. (And I would suspect it isn't)
Well I just took a look at Kerry Cavan there for comparison using the same criteria ( I didn't ref; used official definition of cynical fouling, etc).
Interesting stuff. Kerry were just as adept as Tyrone at picking up black cards in my scenario, albeit heavily, heavily weighted towards the second half when the tide turned a bit and they tried to kill the game off. In the first half there were just 3 such fouls, 2-1 to Kerry with both of theirs similar efforts by Kilian young as he was run at. Cavan's was a lazy forwards tackle by Reilly as he defended deep.
11 Minutes. Kerry 6. Young. Pulling Down. Outside Own 45.
21 Minutes. Kerry 6. Young. Pulling Down. Outside Own 45.
25 Minutes. Cavan 13. Reilly. Pulling Down. Inside Own 20.
In the second half Kerry picked up another 5 hypothetical black cards, albeit one may have been harsh against Galvin. Cavan were choir boys in terms of black card fouls until frustration kicked in at the very death, and these weren't common or garden cynical, more 'f**k it anyway' type throwing your hat at it.
35 Minutes. Kerry 10. Galvin Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Opponents 45.
36 Minutes. Kerry 22. Moran. Pulling Down. Own 20.
39 Minutes, Kerry 4 Enright, Pulling Down. Own 20.
59 Minutes. Kerry 13, Dec O'Sullivan Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Opposition 20.
65 Mins. Cavan 3 Dunne. Pulling Down. Own 45.
69 Mins. Cavan 24 Argue Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Opponents 45.
70 Minutes. Kerry 7, Crowley. Yellow Card. Pulling Down. Opposition 20.
That gave an overall total of 7 for Kerry and 3 for Cavan.
Interestingly, this game may also highlight a major flaw in the new rule. While there were 10 black card fouls, there were also a significant number of equally cynical fouls committed by both sides which would not have seen black, because the player was not 'pulled down'. However they were certainly pulled back, wrapped up or bear hugged. This might be the new form of this tactic I fear. In this game Kerry had at least 6 such tackles, while Cavan had 5. All bar one were commmitted by a forward or midfielder. The classic momentum breaker.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 05, 2013, 10:06:53 PM
Interestingly, this game may also highlight a major flaw in the new rule. While there were 10 black card fouls, there were also a significant number of equally cynical fouls committed by both sides which would not have seen black, because the player was not 'pulled down'. However they were certainly pulled back, wrapped up or bear hugged. This might be the new form of this tactic I fear. In this game Kerry had at least 6 such tackles, while Cavan had 5. All bar one were commmitted by a forward or midfielder. The classic momentum breaker.
My fear as well. As a general rule forwards are not as adept at hiding their cynical tackles behind a thin veneer of "clumsy" play. Defenders such as McBearty, Gormley, Anthony Thompson, Ger Brennan, Shields and Aidan O'Mahoney, (Martin O'Connell) are extremely well practiced at it. Anthony Thompson in particular couldn't be any way near as clumsy as he appears on a football pitch.
Cavanagh through a mixture of last-chance desperation couldn't hide his cynicism as efficiently as most players. Meath in their heyday were particularly good at this, see the "mis-timed"John McDermott tackle on Peter Canavan or the trailing boot of Martin O'Connell.
Good stuff AZ. Was just thinking today that an individual body should be compiling these stats so that we have fair and balanced opinions formed on the facts-then these jokers in RTE might think again before they single out one team of amateur sportsmen for national scorn. Would be interested in how the Dublin Cork game faired out.
Great stuff AZ, exactly what was needed: cold rational analysis, instead of knee-jerk hysterical hyperbole. Maith thú.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 05, 2013, 07:57:59 PM
G AZ go out and do the garden or something, that stuff was hard enough to watch first time round
Translated: leave me with my poisonous prejudices for feck's sake AZ, quit these efforts to establish the facts!
Havent been on the board in 2 days so 25 pages in space of that time time has to be a record.
Looking forward to reading through them all in next few days lol.
Keep her lit Joe
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/brolly-reiterates-broadside-against-cynical-fouling-by-tyrone-1.1485542 (http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/brolly-reiterates-broadside-against-cynical-fouling-by-tyrone-1.1485542)
Quote from: Declan on August 06, 2013, 08:06:40 AM
Keep her lit Joe
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/brolly-reiterates-broadside-against-cynical-fouling-by-tyrone-1.1485542 (http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/brolly-reiterates-broadside-against-cynical-fouling-by-tyrone-1.1485542)
Tyrone's so called "win at all costs attitude" is a kin to Brolly's publicity at all costs attitude to punditry. Get the job done and who gives a feck who you upset along the way. Funnily enough, I'd have ad a bit more respect for Joe had he not hoored himself around every media outlet going in the past 48 hours. The last few days have proved that Sean "as a man" has a lot more class about him than Joe.
Quote from: Jinxy on August 05, 2013, 09:12:45 PM
Quote from: ross matt on August 05, 2013, 09:08:20 PM
I dunno..... Brolly has always been a shit stirring, disrespectful self publicist. To be fair to him his recent rant seemed genuine rather than orchestrated. But a bit late in the day for Joe to latch on to the high integrity platform.
I think he should go. But so also should O'Rourke. By his own admission he was a member of a high achieving but very cynical and often thuggish Mayo side. Very fond of the reverse elbow movement was our Colm as a defender approached him from behind after he won the ball. Always found it a bit rich to listen to O'Rourke lecturing about the evils of "pullin & draggin" when he was a past master of it himself ... particularly in the replayed AI final v Cork. Colm now is mostly an "I'll take the handy money" friendly old uncle type of analysist.
Spillane was (like O'Rourke) a brilliant footballer. But in his hey day he could track back in to his own defense and get on the ball like a Galvin or Dooher and he was a tremendous exponent in the olympic skills long before "puke football" Tyrone. Leaving all that aside he is a very poor speaker and a faded sensationalist style analysist.
Point being... all 3 are past their sell by date and are a poor return for license payer's money. Get rid of Brolly. Get rid of all of them.
Somewhere...... a village is missing its idiot.
Well sure he is nearly right as we gave you heap of that side through good Mayo Breeding and what did you give us in return? A few rocky acres of land to scratch a living from ;)
The question I would ask is....is Joe Brolly attempting to have some influence in dictating the outcome of future matches? These pre-conceived notions about Tyrone cynicism gradually seep their way into the consciousness of the public and referees are under pressure to come down harder on the perceived offenders. He done it last year by highlighting Mayo's cynicism in the run up to last years final since he clearly wanted Donegal to win the AI and he seems to be doing it again this year by labelling Tyrone in the same bracket due to his obvious dislike for his neighbouring county.
Interesting to read Heaney's take on it in todays Irish News. I'm not sure if RTE deliberately portray Tyrone in such an unflattering manner but it is cetainly a lot easier to continuously do it unchecked when no representative from Tyrone are put forward to defend themselves.
Quote from: yellowcard on August 06, 2013, 09:41:17 AM
The question I would ask is....is Joe Brolly attempting to have some influence in dictating the outcome of future matches? These pre-conceived notions about Tyrone cynicism gradually seep their way into the consciousness of the public and referees are under pressure to come down harder on the perceived offenders. He done it last year by highlighting Mayo's cynicism in the run up to last years final since he clearly wanted Donegal to win the AI and he seems to be doing it again this year by labelling Tyrone in the same bracket due to his obvious dislike for his neighbouring county.
Honestly don't think so but he is, of course, leaving himself open to that allegation.
However, as Colm Keys states in today's Independent:
Leaving the personalised nature of his delivery aside, it's hard to disagree with some of the principles of what Joe Brolly said on Saturday night.
An environment where you are 'missing a trick' or naive in some way if you don't do cynicism has long been prevalent and has to be tackled with even greater urgency.That's pretty much it in a nutshell. The 'controversial' delivery merely acts as fuel to keep the 'urgent' agenda alive. That's all he is doing.
Quote from: yellowcard on August 06, 2013, 09:41:17 AM
The question I would ask is....is Joe Brolly attempting to have some influence in dictating the outcome of future matches? These pre-conceived notions about Tyrone cynicism gradually seep their way into the consciousness of the public and referees are under pressure to come down harder on the perceived offenders. He done it last year by highlighting Mayo's cynicism in the run up to last years final since he clearly wanted Donegal to win the AI and he seems to be doing it again this year by labelling Tyrone in the same bracket due to his obvious dislike for his neighbouring county.
Interesting to read Heaney's take on it in todays Irish News. I'm not sure if RTE deliberately portray Tyrone in such an unflattering manner but it is cetainly a lot easier to continuously do it unchecked when no representative from Tyrone are put forward to defend themselves.
The Tyrone stance with RTE is one I have agreed wholeheartedly with, however it is starting to interfere with how we are being portrayed by the national broadcaster. Even Ger Canning who is normally a sit on the fence type of fella, has started it & there's a very obvious anti Tyrone Bias during commentary.
Tyrone must appoint a spokesperson. Maybe Ciaran McLaughlin could be the man here, County Board chairman. Very articulate individual & as close to the panel & management team, without actually being on it.
We've come to expect this sort of sh*t from Brolly, but in what other sporting media platform would a player & a team be attacked in such manner? I really cant think of any. Not to mind amateur players? Does Joe not owe a respect to these fellas splling their guts for 70+mins? Only in Ireland would that be tolerated. It was frankly disgusting viewing watching muscus, bile & hate spew from Joes face as he self combusted. Very very ugly & uncomfortable viewing. Yet in the same way many people watch these cruel beheadings on youtube etc carried out by crazed terrorists in the middle east, people are drawn into this and it attracts publicity & viewing figures
That's the real shame & blight on our game, coming hot on the heals of an equally outrageous attack by Joe on Paul Grimley. If RTE do not clean up its act, then the responsibility lies firmly at the door of the Croke Park & GAA HQ. Number 1 priority for them should be ensuring their games are correctly endorsed & publicised and that their players as amateurs cannot be subjected to such rigourous personal attacks.
Quote from: God14 on August 06, 2013, 10:01:25 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 06, 2013, 09:41:17 AM
The question I would ask is....is Joe Brolly attempting to have some influence in dictating the outcome of future matches? These pre-conceived notions about Tyrone cynicism gradually seep their way into the consciousness of the public and referees are under pressure to come down harder on the perceived offenders. He done it last year by highlighting Mayo's cynicism in the run up to last years final since he clearly wanted Donegal to win the AI and he seems to be doing it again this year by labelling Tyrone in the same bracket due to his obvious dislike for his neighbouring county.
Interesting to read Heaney's take on it in todays Irish News. I'm not sure if RTE deliberately portray Tyrone in such an unflattering manner but it is cetainly a lot easier to continuously do it unchecked when no representative from Tyrone are put forward to defend themselves.
The Tyrone stance with RTE is one I have agreed wholeheartedly with, however it is starting to interfere with how we are being portrayed by the national broadcaster. Even Ger Canning who is normally a sit on the fence type of fella, has started it & there's a very obvious anti Tyrone Bias during commentary.
Tyrone must appoint a spokesperson. Maybe Ciaran McLaughlin could be the man here, County Board chairman. Very articulate individual & as close to the panel & management team, without actually being on it.
We've come to expect this sort of sh*t from Brolly, but in what other sporting media platform would a player & a team be attacked in such manner? I really cant think of any. Not to mind amateur players? Does Joe not owe a respect to these fellas splling their guts for 70+mins? Only in Ireland would that be tolerated. It was frankly disgusting viewing watching muscus, bile & hate spew from Joes face as he self combusted. Very very ugly & uncomfortable viewing. Yet in the same way many people watch these cruel beheadings on youtube etc carried out by crazed terrorists in the middle east, people are drawn into this and it attracts publicity & viewing figures
That's the real shame & blight on our game, coming hot on the heals of an equally outrageous attack by Joe on Paul Grimley. If RTE do not clean up its act, then the responsibility lies firmly at the door of the Croke Park & GAA HQ. Number 1 priority for them should be ensuring their games are correctly endorsed & publicised and that their players as amateurs cannot be subjected to such rigourous personal attacks.
Unfortunately we get the media and politicians we deserve. We are the oxygen for brollys publicity. Now, right here on this board. yesterday on the BBC/UTV - it takes something big for one broadcaster to promote another free of charge which is exactly what BBC did yesterday - it was like them saying "watch the semi final on RTE" adn the only reason they did was because we have an appetite for it.
The sooner we start preparing for the Semi - emotionally and from a media perspective the better. Let Brolly go and f**k himself
I see in the Irish News today,Joseph's own mother is practically disowning him,saying she doesn't pay any heed to a word he says,ever! >: :D
Quote from: T Fearon on August 06, 2013, 10:55:32 AM
I see in the Irish News today,Joseph's own mother is practically disowning him,saying she doesn't pay any heed to a word he says,ever! >: :D
Isn't she from Tyrone ??
No surprise there then !
Quote from: NaomhBridAbú on August 06, 2013, 10:55:11 AM
Quote from: God14 on August 06, 2013, 10:01:25 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 06, 2013, 09:41:17 AM
The question I would ask is....is Joe Brolly attempting to have some influence in dictating the outcome of future matches? These pre-conceived notions about Tyrone cynicism gradually seep their way into the consciousness of the public and referees are under pressure to come down harder on the perceived offenders. He done it last year by highlighting Mayo's cynicism in the run up to last years final since he clearly wanted Donegal to win the AI and he seems to be doing it again this year by labelling Tyrone in the same bracket due to his obvious dislike for his neighbouring county.
Interesting to read Heaney's take on it in todays Irish News. I'm not sure if RTE deliberately portray Tyrone in such an unflattering manner but it is cetainly a lot easier to continuously do it unchecked when no representative from Tyrone are put forward to defend themselves.
The Tyrone stance with RTE is one I have agreed wholeheartedly with, however it is starting to interfere with how we are being portrayed by the national broadcaster. Even Ger Canning who is normally a sit on the fence type of fella, has started it & there's a very obvious anti Tyrone Bias during commentary.
Tyrone must appoint a spokesperson. Maybe Ciaran McLaughlin could be the man here, County Board chairman. Very articulate individual & as close to the panel & management team, without actually being on it.
We've come to expect this sort of sh*t from Brolly, but in what other sporting media platform would a player & a team be attacked in such manner? I really cant think of any. Not to mind amateur players? Does Joe not owe a respect to these fellas splling their guts for 70+mins? Only in Ireland would that be tolerated. It was frankly disgusting viewing watching muscus, bile & hate spew from Joes face as he self combusted. Very very ugly & uncomfortable viewing. Yet in the same way many people watch these cruel beheadings on youtube etc carried out by crazed terrorists in the middle east, people are drawn into this and it attracts publicity & viewing figures
That's the real shame & blight on our game, coming hot on the heals of an equally outrageous attack by Joe on Paul Grimley. If RTE do not clean up its act, then the responsibility lies firmly at the door of the Croke Park & GAA HQ. Number 1 priority for them should be ensuring their games are correctly endorsed & publicised and that their players as amateurs cannot be subjected to such rigourous personal attacks.
Unfortunately we get the media and politicians we deserve. We are the oxygen for brollys publicity. Now, right here on this board. yesterday on the BBC/UTV - it takes something big for one broadcaster to promote another free of charge which is exactly what BBC did yesterday - it was like them saying "watch the semi final on RTE" adn the only reason they did was because we have an appetite for it.
The sooner we start preparing for the Semi - emotionally and from a media perspective the better. Let Brolly go and f**k himself
correct.
Joe has a point in relation to the cynical fouling, however, until the rules adequately cater for such fouls and ensuring the punishment is severe enough to deter teams from doing it, then there's no point in questioning Sean Cavanagh's standing as a man. He's a great player who did what was needed to prevent a goal, albeit, outside of the rules.
It's all irrelevant in the overall scheme of things, neither Tyrone or Monaghan are/were ever going to win this year's All Ireland.
In fairness to Joe his rant didn't come out of the blue . . . here's his column from last week!
http://gaeliclife.com/2013/08/joe-brolly-a-message-to-self-righteous-tyrone-fans/
I'd say Tyrone are delighted with Brolly's rant.
He has participated widely in the media since he made the rant on Saturday night.
Radio Ulster's Alan Simpson show yesterday was an example of how this has gone viral if you like - Alan Simpson who wouldn't know a gaelic ball if it hit him up the mouth ( he's a big Bannsider's fan ) always lets the audience choose the last song in his show - yesterday evening it was a Joe song or a Mickey song.
Every newspaper and TV station and website is filled with it.
Joe aligned himself as past few years with "Jesus" in Donegal.
Now he's acting " God".
But we shouldn't come down too hard on Joe - Joe has done a lot of good in his life and continues to do a lot of good. But he just can't help himself it seems. He is very entertaining but has crossed the line a few times this year, whether by accident or design.
Quote from: orangeman on August 06, 2013, 11:15:00 AM
I'd say Tyrone are delighted with Brolly's rant.
He has participated widely in the media since he made the rant on Saturday night.
Radio Ulster's Alan Simpson show yesterday was an example of how this has gone viral if you like - Alan Simpson who wouldn't know a gaelic ball if it hit him up the mouth ( he's a big Bannsider's fan ) always lets the audience choose the last song in his show - yesterday evening it was a Joe song or a Mickey song.
Every newspaper and TV station and website is filled with it.
Joe aligned himself as past few years with "Jesus" in Donegal.
Now he's acting " God".
But we shouldn't come down too hard on Joe - Joe has done a lot of good in his life and continues to do a lot of good. But he just can't help himself it seems. He is very entertaining but has crossed the line a few times this year, whether by accident or design.
Brolly has had a FOOLS PARDON for most of his media life...once he gets the hint of a smile from an audience he goes all Billy Connolly.
Through the media he has slagged of many people - Gooch, Cavanagh, Mickey Harte, Grimley, Ferghal Logan, Spillane - If you dig deeper, you'll get more...all of the good work that he does within the GAA and more recently with Opt for life should not give him credits to slag of other people. he has no idea of the impact that his high profile bullshitting may have on wider family members or indeed those individuals themselves.
Let him go to f**k
Joe's motoring along nicely.
"They support their own and that's absolutely the way it ought to be but the reality is the pictures speaks for itself," Brolly told BBC radio.
"We can see for ourselves what is happening and it's beginning to poison the ethos of the game.
"It's poisoning relationships and it's making things very, very unpalatable and unpleasant."
Cavanagh has been booked for similar offences in the past three weeks and Brolly has brandished him a "serial offender".
"There's Conor McManus through on goal, his whole sporting life in a way was based on that moment, he's trained since he was a kid," Brolly added.
"He's a tremendous Gaelic footballer, I know his family, and he was through for the goal and he had created adventurously to get his goal chance and this is the big moment, he is going to put Monaghan through to the All-Ireland semi-final [although there were over 20 minutes left in the game] and Seán Cavanagh just cold-bloodedly rugby-tackled him from behind, closed him down, shrugged his shoulders and says afterwards, 'Well, I don't like doing it. It's hateful, I agree with that, but the current rules we're just exploiting them. That's the way we play'.
"I'm calling Seán out on this because he's a serial offender and it's not good enough. He's a 30-year-old and he is responsible for his own behaviour
Brolly is way off base on this one, because he is focussing in on the wrong incident just because it is high profile. Talk about the other fouls that are just as cynical, and moreso even because there is NO immediate danger. To somehow claim that what Cavanagh did in that incident was unheard of, a recent phenomonen, or something restricted to Tyrone or even Sean Cavanagh is ludicrous.
Bet won. £50 richer. Anyway, to matters brolly. I think it's time to support Joe and go a step further to start a campaign of condemnation against other unsavoury acts on the pitch, including taunts about family members (especially female), persistent nipping, standing on heels, stamping on toes and spitting. They all happen in our games and they have become the elephant in the room. And to those of you reading this and objecting because these are things in your idea of a man's game, I say feck off and play soccer where these practices have prevailed for generations.
Quote from: Mrs mills on August 06, 2013, 11:28:20 AM
Bet won. £50 richer. Anyway, to matters brolly. I think it's time to support Joe and go a step further to start a campaign of condemnation against other unsavoury acts on the pitch, including taunts about family members (especially female), persistent nipping, standing on heels, stamping on toes and spitting. They all happen in our games and they have become the elephant in the room. And to those of you reading this and objecting because these are things in your idea of a man's game, I say feck off and play soccer where these practices have prevailed for generations.
No argument from me here on that one. That's a far far bigger scourge. Lets include diving in that list of unmanly behaviour as well, especially diving to feign injury and get a lad sent off. Dessie Mone, take a bow.
I've just realised I'm looking like an apologist for Tyrone, when the Tyrone lads think I'm an apologist for Kerry :)
To me it's a tipping point moment. This could have been called on any number of tackles in the last five years but it just so happens it's this one. Tough luck on Tyrone being the ones caught with their hand in the cookie jar but the shake-down from all this will likely be a positive for the sport as a spectacle and as a whole.
Quote from: NaomhBridAbú on August 06, 2013, 11:21:19 AM
Quote from: orangeman on August 06, 2013, 11:15:00 AM
I'd say Tyrone are delighted with Brolly's rant.
He has participated widely in the media since he made the rant on Saturday night.
Radio Ulster's Alan Simpson show yesterday was an example of how this has gone viral if you like - Alan Simpson who wouldn't know a gaelic ball if it hit him up the mouth ( he's a big Bannsider's fan ) always lets the audience choose the last song in his show - yesterday evening it was a Joe song or a Mickey song.
Every newspaper and TV station and website is filled with it.
Joe aligned himself as past few years with "Jesus" in Donegal.
Now he's acting " God".
But we shouldn't come down too hard on Joe - Joe has done a lot of good in his life and continues to do a lot of good. But he just can't help himself it seems. He is very entertaining but has crossed the line a few times this year, whether by accident or design.
Brolly has had a FOOLS PARDON for most of his media life...once he gets the hint of a smile from an audience he goes all Billy Connolly.
Through the media he has slagged of many people - Gooch, Cavanagh, Mickey Harte, Grimley, Ferghal Logan, Spillane - If you dig deeper, you'll get more...all of the good work that he does within the GAA and more recently with Opt for life should not give him credits to slag of other people. he has no idea of the impact that his high profile bullshitting may have on wider family members or indeed those individuals themselves.
Let him go to f**k
Is he your clubmate?? ???
Quote from: Mrs mills on August 06, 2013, 11:28:20 AM
Bet won. £50 richer. Anyway, to matters brolly. I think it's time to support Joe and go a step further to start a campaign of condemnation against other unsavoury acts on the pitch, including taunts about family members (especially female), persistent nipping, standing on heels, stamping on toes and spitting. They all happen in our games and they have become the elephant in the room. And to those of you reading this and objecting because these are things in your idea of a man's game, I say feck off and play soccer where these practices have prevailed for generations.
I would actually say this sort of thing is more prevalent in GAA than soccer. Some of the sledging has become ridiculous even @ club level.
Wasn't there a time when we all castigated the Brazilian Cafu for claiming to have been struck in the face and the blow had connected with his midriff? I cannot believe we are now copying that in Gaelic football. I'm sure there were at least three such incidents at the weekend. Anybody care to elaborate?
That was Rivaldo against Turkey, but you're correct. However what McFadden and Mone did at the weekend was nearly as bad.
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 05, 2013, 02:57:36 PM
Quote from: orangeman on August 05, 2013, 02:21:49 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 05, 2013, 01:06:47 PM
People seem to think Darren Hughes is superman or something and that a yellow card basically was the reason why Sean Cavanagh shone so well on Saturday against him. There was nothing Hughes would have been able to do differently had he not been on a yellow card. The Gormley and Penrose incidents were very inconclusive from the TV replays, with Mone as likely to have been struck with his own hand than Gormleys and Penrose looked like he pushed high in the chest with the one hand as opposed to punching a man. The referee would have looked a tube if Penrose had been substituted at half time.
2 points -
1. Aidan O'Sé got booked earlier than Darren did against Donegal and went on to be MOM. To argue that the Darren Hughe's booking was a game changer is nonsense in my view.
2. Penrose could not have been subbed at half time - the referee would not have permitted the sub.
But do we know when the referee actually made the decision in his head to send Penrose off - if it were straight away at the time of the incident then why didn't he. Did he see a replay, or did he just mull over it. Its possible that Penrose could have been subbed in the intervening period, what would have happened then? Do referees at County level deal with all substitutions i.e. do they get a wee piece of paper or is that handled separately on the sideline?
Incidents that happen during the half time break appear to be dealt with just before the resumption of the 2nd half.
That's what happened at a league match between Kildare and Monaghan last year in Clones, when a Kildare player was shown a straight red for an 'incident' as the players were walking off at half time.
There is nothing special to read into this practice, not even if the ref had a chat with the officials during half time.
QuoteThe Gormley and Penrose incidents were very inconclusive from the TV replays, with Mone as likely to have been struck with his own hand than Gormleys and Penrose looked like he pushed high in the chest with the one hand as opposed to punching a man.
How the officials missed the obvious 'just as likely that Mone hit himself' explanation and given Penrose the benefit of a doubt, is a damming indictment of their ability, but perhaps they don't believe in flat earth theories either ::)
Is there a dearth of 'cop on' in Tyrone? Brian O'Nolan was a Tyrone man wasn't he? Now I know where he got some of his inspiration from.
I think Joe needs to let the Cavanagh thing go. It'll only undermine the sensible part of his argument since Sean is really acting based on what the rules allow. We should make demands of our players to be more upstanding, the sport will be better for it, but the rules should also be there to back that up.
As McGeeney said during the week, his actions denied Monaghan a possible 3 points, the only fair repercussion would be to give them an opportunity at those 3 points. Whether that be a penalty or a 21yd (or similar) free where defenders are not allowed between the ball and the goals.
As for diving, I don't know what the answer is. My preferred solution is the firing squad but some might say that's a bit harsh.
Quote from: thejuice on August 06, 2013, 11:52:50 AM
I think Joe needs to let the Cavanagh thing go. It'll only undermine the sensible part of his argument since Sean is really acting based on what the rules allow. We should make demands of our players to be more upstanding, the sport will be better for it, but the rules should also be there to back that up.
As McGeeney said during the week, his actions denied Monaghan a possible 3 points, the only fair repercussion would be to give them an opportunity at those 3 points. Whether that be a penalty or a 21yd (or similar) free where defenders are not allowed between the ball and the goals.
As for diving, I don't know what the answer is. My preferred solution is the firing squad but some might say that's a bit harsh.
What about a cynical, calculated tackle which breaks up the play 60 yards out? If a break is on, that's potentially denying the attacking team a possible point at least. Maybe all cynical fouls should be penalised with a scorable free, 20 metres out, rather than the black card. The problem of course is that by penalising one, you are encouraging another form of cynicism (diving). That's why I'd like to see diving treated in a similar way.
Quote from: thejuice on August 06, 2013, 11:52:50 AM
I think Joe needs to let the Cavanagh thing go. It'll only undermine the sensible part of his argument since Sean is really acting based on what the rules allow. We should make demands of our players to be more upstanding, the sport will be better for it, but the rules should also be there to back that up.
As McGeeney said during the week, his actions denied Monaghan a possible 3 points, the only fair repercussion would be to give them an opportunity at those 3 points. Whether that be a penalty or a 21yd (or similar) free where defenders are not allowed between the ball and the goals.
As for diving, I don't know what the answer is. My preferred solution is the firing squad but some might say that's a bit harsh.
i think thats the flip side in to any rule change to get rid of cynical/dirty play.
If you look at the changes soccer have made over the last number of years to 'clean the game up' out-lawing the tackle form behind, and pretty much all physical contact in the box etc.
It may have worked in one respect, but they now have a possibly even worse blight on the game with diving to win these free kicks and penalties.
There was a time when a player wouldnt have went down in the box looking a penatly unless it was blatantly obvious, because he knew he probably wouldnt get it, whereas now they through themselves to the ground at every opertunity in the hope they will get a decision
with any new stricter rules against cynical fouling, equally strict rules against diving need brought in as well.
You could argue it should have been added to the black card offenses as well to try and deter trying to get an opponent in bother
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 06, 2013, 11:55:51 AM
What about a cynical, calculated tackle which breaks up the play 60 yards out? If a break is on, that's potentially denying the attacking team a possible point at least. Maybe all cynical fouls should be penalised with a scorable free, 20 metres out, rather than the black card. The problem of course is that by penalising one, you are encouraging another form of cynicism (diving). That's why I'd like to see diving treated in a similar way.
I don't know about other counties but every Meath possession is an inevitable goal if only the rest of yis would play the game like men. ;)
I was away so havent seen many comments on here about the Brolly/Cavanagh thing but I agree 100% with Brolly.
These things have to stop and this could be as someone said the tipping point
- Tyrone have been serial offenders with the diving, pulling and dragging for years
- They were at it again in the previous round
- The same man in question was highlighted in that game
- Harte's refusual to implement the use of the black card has led to people believing he is protecting his own
These things are all coming home to roost for Tyrone. I cannot comprehend how anyone can condone this behaviour.All against are saying ' it is within the rules of the law', it is not. It is deemed an offence punishable by a yellow card which in my opinion is to light.
Maybe it is me but I like to see everyone allowed to play totheir potential in gaelic games. I have never intentional went out and fouled an opponent in my life and have never stated to anyone that I coach to drag a man down. 'hit him, hit him hard and fair'. I would feel disgusted within myself if I ever did the above.
What Cavanagh did was a disgrace, I cant see how anyone can defend him. He is not the only man but in such a tight game in an all ireland quarter final, with Tyrone man down, and such a clear scoring chance on offer, and done by a person who so blatantly did it last week.......... It is little wonder why people support Brolly.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 06, 2013, 11:55:51 AM
Quote from: thejuice on August 06, 2013, 11:52:50 AM
I think Joe needs to let the Cavanagh thing go. It'll only undermine the sensible part of his argument since Sean is really acting based on what the rules allow. We should make demands of our players to be more upstanding, the sport will be better for it, but the rules should also be there to back that up.
As McGeeney said during the week, his actions denied Monaghan a possible 3 points, the only fair repercussion would be to give them an opportunity at those 3 points. Whether that be a penalty or a 21yd (or similar) free where defenders are not allowed between the ball and the goals.
As for diving, I don't know what the answer is. My preferred solution is the firing squad but some might say that's a bit harsh.
What about a cynical, calculated tackle which breaks up the play 60 yards out? If a break is on, that's potentially denying the attacking team a possible point at least. Maybe all cynical fouls should be penalised with a scorable free, 20 metres out, rather than the black card. The problem of course is that by penalising one, you are encouraging another form of cynicism (diving). That's why I'd like to see diving treated in a similar way.
That is the absolute centre of the whole thing. That this is now coached and making its way to underage football. In fact, not making as it is already there. All teams do it to one extent or another bar none.
What we have seen in most of the games over the weekend is the natural progression of that. As the game wears on, why risk 'missing' a vital foul when a rugby tackle will secure the deal? That's all that is happening here.
The black card isn't the solution as the offences have been posted on here and none deal with the typical cynical foul which is usually no more than a pull of the arm or jersey to buy 2-3 seconds for the defence.
The Cavanagh thing is a red herring to a certain extent although represents the spirit at the heart of the problem. That so many people say "sure what else was he supposed to do" is indicative of the new culture in the game. We've accepted tactical fouling in all its forms as part and parcel of it. That leads to tolerance of diving, 'grabbing the arm' etc etc.
There have always been bad fouls and cynical play. That isn't the argument and people posting videos of Mickey Ned O'Sullivan getting near decapitated are missing the point.
The problem is that it is now systematic and mainstream because it works. It's a shame because by and large the skills of the game are way superior to what they used to be. At the top of inter-county level at least.
Anyone using the 'whataboutery' defence is doing the game a disservice.
Quote from: sheamy on August 06, 2013, 12:35:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 06, 2013, 11:55:51 AM
Quote from: thejuice on August 06, 2013, 11:52:50 AM
I think Joe needs to let the Cavanagh thing go. It'll only undermine the sensible part of his argument since Sean is really acting based on what the rules allow. We should make demands of our players to be more upstanding, the sport will be better for it, but the rules should also be there to back that up.
As McGeeney said during the week, his actions denied Monaghan a possible 3 points, the only fair repercussion would be to give them an opportunity at those 3 points. Whether that be a penalty or a 21yd (or similar) free where defenders are not allowed between the ball and the goals.
As for diving, I don't know what the answer is. My preferred solution is the firing squad but some might say that's a bit harsh.
What about a cynical, calculated tackle which breaks up the play 60 yards out? If a break is on, that's potentially denying the attacking team a possible point at least. Maybe all cynical fouls should be penalised with a scorable free, 20 metres out, rather than the black card. The problem of course is that by penalising one, you are encouraging another form of cynicism (diving). That's why I'd like to see diving treated in a similar way.
That is the absolute centre of the whole thing. That this is now coached and making its way to underage football. In fact, not making as it is already there. All teams do it to one extent or another bar none.
What we have seen in most of the games over the weekend is the natural progression of that. As the game wears on, why risk 'missing' a vital foul when a rugby tackle will secure the deal? That's all that is happening here.
The black card isn't the solution as the offences have been posted on here and none deal with the typical cynical foul which is usually no more than a pull of the arm or jersey to buy 2-3 seconds for the defence.
The Cavanagh thing is a red herring to a certain extent although represents the spirit at the heart of the problem. That so many people say "sure what else was he supposed to do" is indicative of the new culture in the game. We've accepted tactical fouling in all its forms as part and parcel of it. That leads to tolerance of diving, 'grabbing the arm' etc etc.
There have always been bad fouls and cynical play. That isn't the argument and people posting videos of Mickey Ned O'Sullivan getting near decapitated are missing the point.
The problem is that it is now systematic and mainstream because it works. It's a shame because by and large the skills of the game are way superior to what they used to be. At the top of inter-county level at least.
Anyone using the 'whataboutery' defence is doing the game a disservice.
I agree with all of that sheamy, but I absolutely disagree with any notion that what Sean Cavanagh did is anything new in the game. It's not within the rules, but it's never been within the rules, but it always happens and I can't ever see it not happening. That specific situation is so unique that all rational thought foes out the window. Man through, must stop him. It's primal. The rest I agree 100% with. And I think those pull back (but not down) fouls will either lead to 1 of 2 situations. Either no-one will rugby takle anymore, but they will drag and pull their man in a way that he won't fall, or else fellas who do get dragged (or want to make out they were dragged) will hit the ground to invoke the 'to the ground' portion of the definition. That's going to be fair messy.
Quote from: Syferus on August 06, 2013, 11:33:07 AM
To me it's a tipping point moment. This could have been called on any number of tackles in the last five years but it just so happens it's this one. Tough luck on Tyrone being the ones caught with their hand in the cookie jar but the shake-down from all this will likely be a positive for the sport as a spectacle and as a whole.
fair point
The question of whether the punishment fits the crime is a moot one alright, and to be honest I'd favour a foul like that getting a straight red, similar to soccer, but that's not what we've really been talking about here.
I believe that Sean Cavanagh would still have committed the foul if he knew he was getting a black card or a red card.
I believe that players further out the field, in less dramatic circumstances will NOT commit similar tackles when the black card comes in.
To me that's the subtle difference here, and why focussing on Cavanagh's tackle is in danger of taking the focus of the real cynicism that doesn't make a highlight reel.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 06, 2013, 12:47:06 PM
The question of whether the punishment fits the crime is a moot one alright, and to be honest I'd favour a foul like that getting a straight red, similar to soccer, but that's not what we've really been talking about here.
I believe that Sean Cavanagh would still have committed the foul if he knew he was getting a black card or a red card.
I believe that players further out the field, in less dramatic circumstances will NOT commit similar tackles when the black card comes in.
To me that's the subtle difference here, and why focussing on Cavanagh's tackle is in danger of taking the focus of the real cynicism that doesn't make a highlight reel.
And in a nutshell, that's what three days of recent media coverage, hundreds of hours of FRC meetings, and every GAA delegate in the country at congress has missed.
Excellent article by Paddy Heaney today in the Irish News if any off you know how to put up a screengrab of the online version or anything like that?
I consider myself a bit of a purist. I love free flowing football. I love nice flowing moves with kick and hand pass, and I love great scoring. I also appreciate blocking, near hand tackling, a good shoulder etc etc. In all my years playing football I was never even booked.
Now if I found myself back there I'd probably have a nosebleed first, but would I have dragged down McManus in that situation? Absolutely. Would I deserve a red? Probably. Would I still do it in the same situation? Yes.
Roy Keane in a champions league semi final lifted a boy into the air and got a 2nd yellow card and missed the champions league final.
He knew what he was at and was happy to take his medicine for the sake of the team.
If next year Sean Cavanagh finds himself in the same situation, he'll do the very same thing.
What will Joe we have to cry about then ?
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 06, 2013, 12:47:06 PM
The question of whether the punishment fits the crime is a moot one alright, and to be honest I'd favour a foul like that getting a straight red, similar to soccer, but that's not what we've really been talking about here.
I believe that Sean Cavanagh would still have committed the foul if he knew he was getting a black card or a red card.
I believe that players further out the field, in less dramatic circumstances will NOT commit similar tackles when the black card comes in.
To me that's the subtle difference here, and why focussing on Cavanagh's tackle is in danger of taking the focus of the real cynicism that doesn't make a highlight reel.
I don't know if would AZ. There was 20 mins left plus he wold have missed the semi for a straight red. Agree with all your points though. Anyone thinking Cavanagh had some moral obligation not to foul him needs there head looked at.
The niggly half pulls and that to break momentum is where the real problem is at. As players we are encouraged to make these fouls.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 06, 2013, 01:08:57 PM
I consider myself a bit of a purist. I love free flowing football. I love nice flowing moves with kick and hand pass, and I love great scoring. I also appreciate blocking, near hand tackling, a good shoulder etc etc. In all my years playing football I was never even booked.
Now if I found myself back there I'd probably have a nosebleed first, but would I have dragged down McManus in that situation? Absolutely. Would I deserve a red? Probably. Would I still do it in the same situation? Yes.
That's pretty much how I feel about too! I'm getting a bit worried that I'm beginning to agree with most of your posts AZ!
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 06, 2013, 12:47:06 PM
The question of whether the punishment fits the crime is a moot one alright, and to be honest I'd favour a foul like that getting a straight red, similar to soccer, but that's not what we've really been talking about here.
I believe that Sean Cavanagh would still have committed the foul if he knew he was getting a black card or a red card.
Given there was still a fair bit of time left, do you really think SeanC would have done the rugby tackle if he knew he'd get a red card and thus also miss any semi final?
Under the current rules, a trip or pull down of an opponent is a yellow card. But if the player's foulplay crosses the line (so to speak) and turns into "to behave in any way which is dangerous to an opponent" then its a straight red. Cav's tackle wasn't very far from that line. If the ref have thought it dangerous play and given a straight red card, then the fallout would have been interesting.
Quote from: orangeman on August 06, 2013, 01:11:12 PM
Roy Keane in a champions league semi final lifted a boy into the air and got a 2nd yellow card and missed the champions league final.
He knew what he was at and was happy to take his medicine for the sake of the team.
If next year Sean Cavanagh finds himself in the same situation, he'll do the very same thing.
What will Joe we have to cry about then ?
Roy keane was attempting to win the ball after a poor pass from Jesper Blomqvist. It also happened in the centre of the pitch. It was a late tackle, but he was gong for the ball. It wasn't about to decide a goal being scored.
In the '93 AI semi final Joe weaves his way through the Dublin defence and when bearing down on the keeper one of the defenders takes him out from behind. Purely cynical, no attempt to play the ball and this was twenty years ago.
I think he would Hound. We see it a lot in other codes. If Cavanagh felt he needed to do it, he would do it. The team comes first. Having said that, I'm sure the red card would factor into his thinking in some way, but again it's slightly tangential because as it stands it wasn't a red, and every player in Ireland (with a few noble exceptions) would have done the same thing. The thing about this incident is that it's almost instinctive in that situation. The one out the field is much more calculated. I wish Brolly highlighted that there 14 instances of deliberate black card type fouls in the game, or that Kerry had 7 of them in a comfortable win v Cavan (not to mention another 6 with I believe should be black card eligible as well).
If Brolly did his nut and focussed on lads like Peter Harte's tackle, or Duffy's from Monaghan, and said 'this is what we need to cut out' then he'd be right, because those fouls ARE much more prevelant today. Cavanagh's thing could have happened in any era at any level.
Quote from: omagh_gael on August 06, 2013, 01:20:36 PM
In the '93 AI semi final Joe weaves his way through the Dublin defence and when bearing down on the keeper one of the defenders takes him out from behind. Purely cynical, no attempt to play the ball and this was twenty years ago.
Did he have a pint with him afterwards?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_EjyFFb9u0&feature=youtube_gdata_playerquote author=AZOffaly link=topic=23552.msg1262068#msg1262068 date=1375791684]
Quote from: omagh_gael on August 06, 2013, 01:20:36 PM
In the '93 AI semi final Joe weaves his way through the Dublin defence and when bearing down on the keeper one of the defenders takes him out from behind. Purely cynical, no attempt to play the ball and this was twenty years ago.
Did he have a pint with him afterwards?
[/quote]
Na Joe was tee total. Tyrone circa 2012/13 drove Joe to drink.
You'll find said incident on YouTube. Derry Dublin 1993 GAA will take you there.
Lets be very clear when we say "everybody is doing it" , there is a distinction to be made between those who proactively ramp up the cynicism and those who reactively respond to increased cynicism. I dont care what anybody says,the likes of Tyrone and Donegal are far more culpable than the likes of Kerry or Mayo for the level of cynicism in the game.
Brolly may be going over the top in personalizing it. On the other hand its good that somebody in Ulster finally has the balls to call out Mickey Harte. Its a pity Brolly waited till the damage was done.
Make no mistake, It is ethically correct to use the "lance Armstrong" approach to fixing the sport i.e to go after the main perpetrators first. Make some attempt to establish a level playing field for those whose main priority, god forbid, is to actually play Gaelic football.
So Joe knows something we don't ? He's been talking to the men at the top since Saturday.
Colm Keys– 06 August 2013
TYRONE do not intend to take up Joe Brolly's scathing criticism of Sean Cavanagh on 'The Saturday Game' with RTE chiefs.
The Tyrone County Board have not had a relationship with the national broadcaster for the last two years over issues that relate to manager Mickey Harte.
Brolly delivered a stinging rebuke of Cavanagh over his deliberate pulling down of Monaghan attacker Conor McManus, preventing a clear goal chance at a critical time in Tyrone's All-Ireland quarter-final victory.
But Tyrone have no intention of registering a complaint directly to RTE over the personalised nature of the criticism of Cavanagh.
Brolly appeared to qualify one of his remarks about Cavanagh in an interview with BBC Radio Ulster yesterday afternoon.
He had declared on RTE on Saturday night that "you can forget about Sean Cavanagh as far as he is a man" after executing the tackle.
But on BBC radio, he suggested it was as "a man on the field" he was referencing. "I hate that. That is not a sportsman and that is not how a sportsman conducts himself," he said.
Brolly accepted that Tyrone supporters had a right to be critical of what he said about both Cavanagh and Harte.
"Tyrone ones are saying, 'look, we support our team. We resent what you said about Sean Cavanagh and Mickey Harte.' They are quite right to say that. But they do accept the principle that the rules have to be changed," he added.
Brolly also claims that he has been speaking to the GAA's 'powers that be' since Saturday and that further rule change will be expedited.
"All of the proposals that were suggested by the Rules Committee (FRC), what is going to happen at the next review, I have no doubt because I was speaking to the powers that be yesterday, they will all be introduced. The public are ready for it," said Brolly.
"I didn't appreciate it was going to have so much impact but I am delighted it has. What's going to happen now is the rule makers are going to have the wind at their back. Nobody is going to stand up and say, 'look, we don't need these rules'."
Quote from: orangeman on August 06, 2013, 01:27:52 PM
So Joe knows something we don't ? He's been talking to the men at the top since Saturday.
Colm Keys– 06 August 2013
TYRONE do not intend to take up Joe Brolly's scathing criticism of Sean Cavanagh on 'The Saturday Game' with RTE chiefs.
The Tyrone County Board have not had a relationship with the national broadcaster for the last two years over issues that relate to manager Mickey Harte.
Brolly delivered a stinging rebuke of Cavanagh over his deliberate pulling down of Monaghan attacker Conor McManus, preventing a clear goal chance at a critical time in Tyrone's All-Ireland quarter-final victory.
But Tyrone have no intention of registering a complaint directly to RTE over the personalised nature of the criticism of Cavanagh.
Brolly appeared to qualify one of his remarks about Cavanagh in an interview with BBC Radio Ulster yesterday afternoon.
He had declared on RTE on Saturday night that "you can forget about Sean Cavanagh as far as he is a man" after executing the tackle.
But on BBC radio, he suggested it was as "a man on the field" he was referencing. "I hate that. That is not a sportsman and that is not how a sportsman conducts himself," he said.
Brolly accepted that Tyrone supporters had a right to be critical of what he said about both Cavanagh and Harte.
"Tyrone ones are saying, 'look, we support our team. We resent what you said about Sean Cavanagh and Mickey Harte.' They are quite right to say that. But they do accept the principle that the rules have to be changed," he added.
Brolly also claims that he has been speaking to the GAA's 'powers that be' since Saturday and that further rule change will be expedited.
"All of the proposals that were suggested by the Rules Committee (FRC), what is going to happen at the next review, I have no doubt because I was speaking to the powers that be yesterday, they will all be introduced. The public are ready for it," said Brolly.
"I didn't appreciate it was going to have so much impact but I am delighted it has. What's going to happen now is the rule makers are going to have the wind at their back. Nobody is going to stand up and say, 'look, we don't need these rules'."
Perhaps some of the powers that be have told him to speak his mind!!
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 06, 2013, 01:25:32 PM
Lets be very clear when we say "everybody is doing it" , there is a distinction to be made between those who proactively ramp up the cynicism and those who reactively respond to increased cynicism. I dont care what anybody says,the likes of Tyrone and Donegal are far more culpable than the likes of Kerry or Mayo for the level of cynicism in the game.
Brolly may be going over the top in personalizing it. On the other hand its good that somebody in Ulster finally has the balls to call out Mickey Harte. Its a pity Brolly waited till the damage was done.
Make no mistake, It is ethically correct to use the "lance Armstrong" approach to fixing the sport i.e to go after the main perpetrators first. Make some attempt to establish a level playing field for those whose main priority, god forbid, is to actually play Gaelic football.
I knew you'd be in Mike :) I don't know if you saw on the other thread, but I did a bit of watching back on the two games to see which teams were committing the most 'Black Card' fouls, as awarded by the ref (not in my opinion of what was a foul or not). When the ref gave a free, or took retrospective action, I looked at the incident and measured it against the new definition of 'cynical fouls'.
Tyrone committed 8 such fouls, including Cavanagh's, and including a trip by Clarke on a Monaghan man when Tyrone had the ball.
Kerry were next up, with 7, 5 of which occured in the second half including a harsh one on Galvin.
Monaghan were next with 6
Cavan were last with 3, 2 of which came in the last 5 minutes or so and were frustration fouls as opposed to momentum breaker.
As I pointed out, there were a further 11 instances (6 Kerry, 5 Cavan) in that game of what I would term cynical fouls but would not merit a black card because the player never hit the deck. The drag backs and bear hugging.
I'm a great fan of Kerry football, as you know, and as the Tyronies never tire of telling me when I'm standing up for Dromid or whoever, but one thing about Kerry is that they are never slow in learning from and adapting tactics that others have used to beat them in the past. This Kerry team is as adept at employing the cynical momentum breaker as any team in Ireland, Tyrone included.
Quote from: omagh_gael on August 06, 2013, 01:25:14 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_EjyFFb9u0&feature=youtube_gdata_playerquote author=AZOffaly link=topic=23552.msg1262068#msg1262068 date=1375791684]
Quote from: omagh_gael on August 06, 2013, 01:20:36 PM
In the '93 AI semi final Joe weaves his way through the Dublin defence and when bearing down on the keeper one of the defenders takes him out from behind. Purely cynical, no attempt to play the ball and this was twenty years ago.
Did he have a pint with him afterwards?
Na Joe was tee total. Tyrone circa 2012/13 drove Joe to drink.
You'll find said incident on YouTube. Derry Dublin 1993 GAA will take you there.
[/quote]
You sure it wasnt Seamus Downey who was hauled down. I get your point though!
If everyone is doing it, does it make right?
The fact is if it was the first minute or the last minute cavanagh would have done the exact same thing; even if it was punishable by red. Thats the mindset that has to be changed. If ye were a coach could ye look at a 14 year old in the eye after he pulled a wee lad down going in on goal? I feckin guarantee ye that ye might be happy inside but would ye let it known in public by shouting 'Well done Mickey, good man ye boy ye!' in front of all the parents and other coaches. What ye would all do is turn away, head down with a wry smile and say under yer breath ' feck mickey, happy days ya wee cert ye' .Ye would he embarrassed to let everyone know of how people potray ye.
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 06, 2013, 12:57:59 PM
Excellent article by Paddy Heaney today in the Irish News if any off you know how to put up a screengrab of the online version or anything like that?
just read it there.
at last someone in the media providing a bit of balance
Quote from: theticklemister on August 06, 2013, 01:35:12 PM
If everyone is doing it, does it make right?
The fact is if it was the first minute or the last minute cavanagh would have done the exact same thing; even if it was punishable by red. Thats the mindset that has to be changed. If ye were a coach could ye look at a 14 year old in the eye after he pulled a wee lad down going in on goal? I feckin guarantee ye that ye might be happy inside but would ye let it known in public by shouting 'Well done Mickey, good man ye boy ye!' in front of all the parents and other coaches. What ye would all do is turn away, head down with a wry smile and say under yer breath ' feck mickey, happy days ya wee cert ye' .Ye would he embarrassed to let everyone know of how people potray ye.
No, it just means everyone is doing it, and to single out Cavanagh as if he had done something nobody else would do, or has done in the past, was ridiculous.
I'm also confused by your second comment. You seem to imply that you'd be happy the lad did it, but be afraid to praise him for it.
For myself, I'd be giving out that we allowed the situation to develop, and I'd certainly not castigate the young lad for it or 'Never give him a jersey again' as Brolly said.
Quote from: theticklemister on August 06, 2013, 01:35:12 PM
If everyone is doing it, does it make right?
The fact is if it was the first minute or the last minute cavanagh would have done the exact same thing; even if it was punishable by red. Thats the mindset that has to be changed. If ye were a coach could ye look at a 14 year old in the eye after he pulled a wee lad down going in on goal? I feckin guarantee ye that ye might be happy inside but would ye let it known in public by shouting 'Well done Mickey, good man ye boy ye!' in front of all the parents and other coaches. What ye would all do is turn away, head down with a wry smile and say under yer breath ' feck mickey, happy days ya wee cert ye' .Ye would he embarrassed to let everyone know of how people potray ye.
i don't know what point you are trying to make. If its that not everyone is honest and plays to the letter of the rules then I agree with you. That's why we have refs. If those rules are not a deterrent to particular fouls then they need looked at. if Sean cav knew he would have received a straight red I don't think he would have done it, and if it had Been in the first minute of the game and that was the punishment he def wouldn't have done it. I would agree with others that the black card would have been of no deterrent whatsoever
That second piece was what I think a lot of people who support such ongoing fouling would stand if they were an underage coach.
A black card is a great idea in principle but as people have said it would not have stopped Cavanagh or other people doing what they have done or doing at present. It might cause havoc at club level though.It is a step in the right direction however and must be given a chance. Cavanaghs tackle was done as a split second decision however and if it is engrained in people's mindsets as it seems to be, it will take a while to remove it .
Quote from: theticklemister on August 06, 2013, 01:51:20 PM
That second piece was what I think a lot of people who support such ongoing fouling would stand if they were an underage coach.
A black card is a great idea in priciple but as people have said it would not have stopped Cavanagh or other people doing what they have done or doing at present. It might cause havoc at club level though.It is a step in the right direction however and must be given a chance. Cavanaghs tackle was done as a split second decision however andbif it is engrained in people's mindsets it will take a wile to remove it .
And has ALWAYS been engrained in people's mindset as long as I've been playing or involved. "Bring Him Down" has been roared many, many times over the years in similar situations. I've had it done to myself many times. They'd have been better off letting me shoot.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 06, 2013, 01:31:35 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 06, 2013, 01:25:32 PM
Lets be very clear when we say "everybody is doing it" , there is a distinction to be made between those who proactively ramp up the cynicism and those who reactively respond to increased cynicism. I dont care what anybody says,the likes of Tyrone and Donegal are far more culpable than the likes of Kerry or Mayo for the level of cynicism in the game.
Brolly may be going over the top in personalizing it. On the other hand its good that somebody in Ulster finally has the balls to call out Mickey Harte. Its a pity Brolly waited till the damage was done.
Make no mistake, It is ethically correct to use the "lance Armstrong" approach to fixing the sport i.e to go after the main perpetrators first. Make some attempt to establish a level playing field for those whose main priority, god forbid, is to actually play Gaelic football.
I knew you'd be in Mike :) I don't know if you saw on the other thread, but I did a bit of watching back on the two games to see which teams were committing the most 'Black Card' fouls, as awarded by the ref (not in my opinion of what was a foul or not). When the ref gave a free, or took retrospective action, I looked at the incident and measured it against the new definition of 'cynical fouls'.
Tyrone committed 8 such fouls, including Cavanagh's, and including a trip by Clarke on a Monaghan man when Tyrone had the ball.
Kerry were next up, with 7, 5 of which occured in the second half including a harsh one on Galvin.
Monaghan were next with 6
Cavan were last with 3, 2 of which came in the last 5 minutes or so and were frustration fouls as opposed to momentum breaker.
As I pointed out, there were a further 11 instances (6 Kerry, 5 Cavan) in that game of what I would term cynical fouls but would not merit a black card because the player never hit the deck. The drag backs and bear hugging.
I'm a great fan of Kerry football, as you know, and as the Tyronies never tire of telling me when I'm standing up for Dromid or whoever, but one thing about Kerry is that they are never slow in learning from and adapting tactics that others have used to beat them in the past. This Kerry team is as adept at employing the cynical momentum breaker as any team in Ireland, Tyrone included.
Yes, and why does everybody seem to ignore this crucial fact ? We
adapt. How culpable are we though ?
If somebody burgles your home twice and the third time they do it you go over and steal back what they have stolen...how culpable are you exactly ?
Is there anyone on this board that can honestly say that the more cynicism there is in the game the more its suits the likes of Kerry ? ...or Mayo ?..(who have obviously said "f**k this nice guy shit" ......and who can blame them ?)
Everybody knows the opposite is true. We would do much better in a cleaner, less cynical game.
While I feel Joe went a little too far by personalising his criticism of Sean Cavanagh, I do agree with his main point. Such cynical fouling is NOT within the rules of the game. The problem is the punishment is not a sufficient deterrent to the offence. The Black Card may or should become a better deterrent, but only if Referees are instructed to apply it throughout the field of play, and early in the game too. The Black Card=>"Sent Off" impact will only be truly felt when a team has run out of replacement options.
Then the real test will come when some aggrieved county lodges an appeal to a ref's black card show. Will the CCCC or whichever Appeals Committee applies have the gumption to stand behind the ref and back him. That I am much less sure of.
I think I actually believe this. I do think Kerry would prefer everyone to set up 15 v 15 and go at it like the bejaysus, but it's also equally untrue to say that 'Kerry wouldn't do that sort of thing', which you also here.
They might prefer the more open way, but are happy enough to do whatever it takes, and I don't think that should be news to anyone really. All good sides have that element to them. Adapt or die.
Quote from: The Biff on August 06, 2013, 01:58:22 PM
While I feel Joe went a little too far by personalising his criticism of Sean Cavanagh, I do agree with his main point. Such cynical fouling is NOT within the rules of the game. The problem is the punishment is not a sufficient deterrent to the offence. The Black Card may or should become a better deterrent, but only if Referees are instructed to apply it throughout the field of play, and early in the game too. The Black Card=>"Sent Off" impact will only be truly felt when a team has run out of replacement options.
Then the real test will come when some aggrieved county lodges an appeal to a ref's black card show. Will the CCCC or whichever Appeals Committee applies have the gumption to stand behind the ref and back him. That I am much less sure of.
I don't think ANYONE has said it is within the rules of the game to pull a lad down. I certainly haven;t said it.
What I've said a couple of times is that
a) Sean Cavanagh is not the first, and pretty fecking far from the only, player that has done this or would do this.
b) It has happened in every era.
c) Focussing on this particular example actually takes away from the really insidious negative shite that happens out the field.
By Brolly somehow insinuating that THIS type of last ditch fouling is somehow unique to Tyrone, Sean Cavanagh or recent years is frankly bullshit. In fact in his own video there are similar tackles from Galway and Armagh defenders.
But the crusade should be against the other fouls. The push me pull you fouls, the drag backs, the fouls designed to kill momentum, stop the game, allow defensive systems to be set up. That's what I hope the black card goes after, not some lad making a last ditch desperation lunge to prevent a goal. That's always been there and I think will always remain.
And I've also said on another thread, I think, that I would have no problem if what Cavanagh did specifically (i.e. deny a clear goalscoring opportunity) was an automatic red card. However that's not the case at the moment, and it's crazy to castigate Cavanagh for something that 'should' be in the rule book.
It's funny to see the media eulogise Roscommon's minor victory yesterday and praise them for closing out the game. They did this by packing their defence and cynically fouling. Ironically the sending off was for 2 yellows, he gave the 2nd yellow for a rugby tackle but it was very harsh, it was just an awkward attempt at playing the ball from behind. Wonder was Brolly's comments in the ref's head?
BTW it was all within the framework of the rules and I have no issue with it but just disappointed to see it at minor level.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 06, 2013, 01:55:53 PM
Yes, and why does everybody seem to ignore this crucial fact ? We adapt. How culpable are we though ?
Here's an innocent, holier-than-thou, little piece of adaptation, eh?
(And never mind that Murphy might well have been seriously injured as a result thereof!)
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/kennelly-admits-final-marker-was-premeditated-26574621.html
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 06, 2013, 02:07:11 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 06, 2013, 01:55:53 PM
Yes, and why does everybody seem to ignore this crucial fact ? We adapt. How culpable are we though ?
Here's an innocent, holier-than-thou, little piece of adaptation, eh?
(And never mind that Murhpy might well have been seriously injured as a result thereof!)
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/kennelly-admits-final-marker-was-premeditated-26574621.html
That's a different type of incident again Fear. That was straight out of the 1980s :)
Yip you are correct....and the same thing can be said about Tyrone, and Armagh too. Kicked around Croke Park for years with no protection whatsoever. John Lynch was took out of it by Tommy Doyle in 86 and every Tyrone man was took out of it in 1996 against Meath. Toe to toe Tyrone would have beat Kerry in 2003, 05 and 8 as well cause they had better players! Its a mindset where by we are going to get tramped over by anyone anymore.
Walter, Guarantee it was Brolly. Watched the highlights earlier.
Quote from: omagh_gael on August 06, 2013, 02:13:04 PM
Walter, Guarantee it was Brolly. Watched the highlights earlier.
That game was riddled with cynical fouls, this a better example.
The Dubs Ciaran Walsh hauls down Seamus Downey through on goals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=z_EjyFFb9u0&t=492)
Has there been a bigger frenzy about a player committing a yellow card offence and getting the yellow card?
There were many worse fouls over the weekend that was not highlighted.
For example, we heard little about;
A Donegal player stamping on a player
A Tyrone player picking up season ending injury.
Two other players being sent off in the same Tyrone – Monaghan game.
There was also no comment on similar fouls in other games.
And little talk about other big stories like, the All Ireland champions being defeated comprehensively.
It seems there is a lot of sheep out there who hang on every word from Joe.
He orchestrates and all his sheep, they bleat and bleat even louder if it is Tyrone.
All over a yellow card offence.
What will Brolly do if Sean commits a red card offence?
GAAboard meltdown...?
Quote from: omagh_gael on August 06, 2013, 02:13:04 PM
Walter, Guarantee it was Brolly. Watched the highlights earlier.
There's an incident Joe is running through and just gets a shove in the back at 2:10mins in
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 06, 2013, 02:08:25 PM
That's a different type of incident again Fear. That was straight out of the 1980s :)
:D
Sickening, sickening sanctimony! ;)
Quote from: theticklemister on August 06, 2013, 01:35:12 PM
If everyone is doing it, does it make right?
The fact is if it was the first minute or the last minute cavanagh would have done the exact same thing; even if it was punishable by red. Thats the mindset that has to be changed. If ye were a coach could ye look at a 14 year old in the eye after he pulled a wee lad down going in on goal? I feckin guarantee ye that ye might be happy inside but would ye let it known in public by shouting 'Well done Mickey, good man ye boy ye!' in front of all the parents and other coaches. What ye would all do is turn away, head down with a wry smile and say under yer breath ' feck mickey, happy days ya wee cert ye' .Ye would he embarrassed to let everyone know of how people potray ye.
I can't read his mind but I would severely doubt that unless the clock was ticking down. Cavanagh would have been aware that he could only be given a yellow card and acted accordingly. The rule should state that a professional fould should be punished with a red card and a penalty and that would act as a sufficient detterent.
I've never heard as many puritanical sanctimonius individuals spout as much nonsense as they have done in the last few days. A lot of GAA people I have spoken to have voiced their disgust at Brollys agenda peddling and I think there is a too much of a vicious personalised nature to his arguments over the last few years. The whole of last winter was spent debating the merit of rule changes and ways to clean up the game. Is this going to become an annual recurring theme peddled by certain salaried pundits in order to keep their name in lights throughout the year? I would imagine that this outburst has done wonders for Joes profile whilst that Cavanagh tackle will probably now define his career.
Has the game become more 'cynical' in the last few years, I would say not necessarily. Its largely due to the increasing media coverage and the need for media outlets to create talking points that exist outside the actual match analysis. In the same way that premiership soccer has been sensationalised into a soap opera dominated by moral outrages over racism, bites, dives, spitting etc that give the likes of Sky and the rags the talking points required to feed into public hysteria. Do we really want to head down that route?
Quote from: Cold tea on August 05, 2013, 11:43:32 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 05, 2013, 11:34:00 AM
I'm told that BBC on Saturday was very good with McGeeney in particular giving good analysis. I watched the BBC yesterday and thought Enda McGinley was very good also for a guy with little experience. Maybe the fact that McGeeney and McGinley are both fresh from county set-ups leaves them in a much better position to comment on these games than the much older men on RTE. I will be watching BBC from now on when not at the games.
Maybe for analysis but Jesus the commentary is crap.
Did you see the state of Sidebottom and McConville?
Not a shirt in either house it seems. A pair of scruffy pricks
Quote from: Dinny Breen on August 06, 2013, 02:05:07 PM
It's funny to see the media eulogise Roscommon's minor victory yesterday and praise them for closing out the game. They did this by packing their defence and cynically fouling. Ironically the sending off was for 2 yellows, he gave the 2nd yellow for a rugby tackle but it was very harsh, it was just an awkward attempt at playing the ball from behind. Wonder was Brolly's comments in the ref's head?
BTW it was all within the framework of the rules and I have no issue with it but just disappointed to see it at minor level.
Arrah c'mere. Kildare committed the majority of dirty fouls, striking Daly at least two times and doing everything save knee-capping Harney. Kildare would have been just as willing to pull down a Ros man, if they'd been able to get a hand on him, that is! As it stands it's hard to see a way not for the game to have a healthy dose of cynicism, it's simply about trying to police it enough that it isn't an open sore.
O'Rourke made a last-man tackle ala Sean Cavanagh in the first half for his first yellow but he was silly to attempt a tackle from behind in midfield while on a yellow. Compton picked up a yellow later on but took the smart option every time after and avoided any risky tackles that would have given the referee an opportunity to send him off. I had no complaints about O'Rourke getting the line.
I think there are more of the kind of tackles I don't like. It's systematic at this stage. We used to call it 'lazy tackles', now it's clever and allows you to get set up defensively. That is certainly more prevalent today than before.
As for the Cavanagh incident, a wild goose chase initiated by Joe Brolly to gain attention for his agenda against either Tyrone or hopefully cynical fouling. However in personalising it and focussing on the high profile goal scoring opportunity incident, he's actually taking the focus off the more widespread problem.
And I've said enough on it now, as I'm sure most people reading these threads would agree!! :D
Quote from: Dinny Breen on August 06, 2013, 02:05:07 PM
It's funny to see the media eulogise Roscommon's minor victory yesterday and praise them for closing out the game. They did this by packing their defence and cynically fouling. Ironically the sending off was for 2 yellows, he gave the 2nd yellow for a rugby tackle but it was very harsh, it was just an awkward attempt at playing the ball from behind. Wonder was Brolly's comments in the ref's head?
BTW it was all within the framework of the rules and I have no issue with it but just disappointed to see it at minor level.
Well, you seemed to have a great laugh at the Kerry minors loss so I guess what goes around comes around. Karma is a bitch isn't it.
Quote from: Syferus on August 06, 2013, 02:35:19 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on August 06, 2013, 02:05:07 PM
It's funny to see the media eulogise Roscommon's minor victory yesterday and praise them for closing out the game. They did this by packing their defence and cynically fouling. Ironically the sending off was for 2 yellows, he gave the 2nd yellow for a rugby tackle but it was very harsh, it was just an awkward attempt at playing the ball from behind. Wonder was Brolly's comments in the ref's head?
BTW it was all within the framework of the rules and I have no issue with it but just disappointed to see it at minor level.
Arrah c'mere. Kildare committed the majority of dirty fouls, striking Daly at least two times and doing everything save knee-capping Harney. Kildare would have been just as willing to pull down a Ros man, if they'd been able to get a hand on him, that is! As it stands it's hard to see a way not for the game to have a healthy dose of cynicism, it's simply about trying to police it enough that it isn't an open sore.
O'Rourke made a last-man tackle ala Sean Cavanagh in the first half for his first yellow but he was silly to attempt a tackle from behind in midfield while on a yellow. Compton picked up a yellow later on but took the smart option every time after and avoided any risky tackles that would have given the referee an opportunity to send him off. I had no complaints about O'Rourke getting the line.
Syferus your missing the point, the media have eulogised your minors yet on the other hand they are demonising cynical play. Either they take a stand or not.
As already stated I have no issue with Roscommon's approach, it was a pretty clean game with the odd sly dig from
both sides.
Ten years from now might we be looking at a different game with team fouls and a 20m free being awarded after a limit has been reached?
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 06, 2013, 03:38:03 PM
I was at a club U12 game last night, first chance I've had this year, and I was speaking to some parents of our players. When the issue of Tyrone and Brolly came up, one father said that Brollys behaviour after the match was much more of a bad influence to young players than anything Sean Cavanagh done in the match before and that yes his rugby-style tackle was not a sporting one but Joes rant gives an impression to children that its all right to throw tantrums when things don't go your way and threaten people who don't agree with you or try to calm you down. He went on to say that if a player on the St. Brigids Belfast U12 team threw a strop like that in a game at the referee or an opponent, what authority does Brolly have to discipline him? Furthermore he was right in saying that if he behaved like that in a game his son was playing in, he'd be told by our club that he would not be welcomed back to games until he learned to control himself and that if any of our youth team coaches did something similar they would be suspended by the club for bringing them into disrepute. Certainly food for thought.
Good post that, offers another side to the story to consider. I would not disagree with any of it.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 06, 2013, 03:38:03 PM
I was at a club U12 game last night, first chance I've had this year, and I was speaking to some parents of our players. When the issue of Tyrone and Brolly came up, one father said that Brollys behaviour after the match was much more of a bad influence to young players than anything Sean Cavanagh done in the match before and that yes his rugby-style tackle was not a sporting one but Joes rant gives an impression to children that its all right to throw tantrums when things don't go your way and threaten people who don't agree with you or try to calm you down. He went on to say that if a player on the St. Brigids Belfast U12 team threw a strop like that in a game at the referee or an opponent, what authority does Brolly have to discipline him? Furthermore he was right in saying that if he behaved like that in a game his son was playing in, he'd be told by our club that he would not be welcomed back to games until he learned to control himself and that if any of our youth team coaches did something similar they would be suspended by the club for bringing them into disrepute. Certainly food for thought.
Ah come on. Let's assume Brolly was genuinely angry. As it happens, I don't believe that it was anything other than an act. However, this idea that an adult getting angry on the telly is a bad example to children is wrong. There was nothing inarticulate or out of control about Brolly's rant and if a coach got suspended for that then the law would be an ass, especially when you consider how often close clubs ranks around an ape who is downright violent. You've made some very good points about the holes in Brolly's stance, but this one is a stretch at best.
Quote from: deiseach on August 06, 2013, 04:42:41 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 06, 2013, 03:38:03 PM
I was at a club U12 game last night, first chance I've had this year, and I was speaking to some parents of our players. When the issue of Tyrone and Brolly came up, one father said that Brollys behaviour after the match was much more of a bad influence to young players than anything Sean Cavanagh done in the match before and that yes his rugby-style tackle was not a sporting one but Joes rant gives an impression to children that its all right to throw tantrums when things don't go your way and threaten people who don't agree with you or try to calm you down. He went on to say that if a player on the St. Brigids Belfast U12 team threw a strop like that in a game at the referee or an opponent, what authority does Brolly have to discipline him? Furthermore he was right in saying that if he behaved like that in a game his son was playing in, he'd be told by our club that he would not be welcomed back to games until he learned to control himself and that if any of our youth team coaches did something similar they would be suspended by the club for bringing them into disrepute. Certainly food for thought.
Ah come on. Let's assume Brolly was genuinely angry. As it happens, I don't believe that it was anything other than an act. However, this idea that an adult getting angry on the telly is a bad example to children is wrong. There was nothing inarticulate or out of control about Brolly's rant and if a coach got suspended for that then the law would be an ass, especially when you consider how often close clubs ranks around an ape who is downright violent. You've made some very good points about the holes in Brolly's stance, but this one is a stretch at best.
What about Brolly's assertion that he would never give a jersey to a kid again if he committed a foul like that? I know as a parent there would be questions asked in the club if someone with that attitude was in charge of the kids! I can just see him, towering over a small boy, saliva dripping from his mouth bellowing his sanctimonious nonsense and sending the kid home with his tail between his legs, never to play Gaelic football again - lesson taught and we'll all clap Joe on the back for his noble stance against cynicism!
I'd have done exactly what Cavanagh did, admits Hughes
Tuesday, August 06, 2013
Darren Hughes has admitted he would have committed the same rugby tackle as Seán Cavanagh if it meant Monaghan reaching an All-Ireland semi-final.
By Orla Bannon
However, Hughes launched a stinging attack on referee Cormac Reilly for his handling of the ill-tempered quarter-final at Croke Park on Saturday night.
Hughes had hard hitting words for the Meath officials and claimed he was incorrectly booked in the 17th minute after he cleanly dispossessed Cavanagh.
Blasted Hughes: "I told him [Reilly] to wait 10 seconds and look at the screen, but he didn't, maybe they are not allowed to, but I knew I'd got the ball," said Hughes.
"It shouldn't have affected me, but Cavanagh got three points off me after it and I am disappointed about that.
"It did frustrate me and I did have a bit of a vendetta towards the referee after that. We have had a falling out before but sure, he's making bad decisions a lifetime, he's not going to stop now."
Reilly applied the rules correctly in issuing a yellow card to Cavanagh after his rugby-style tackle denied Conor McManus a goal-scoring opportunity in the 49th minute.
Hughes refused to blame Cavanagh for taking down his team-mate.
"It was a blatant goal opportunity and next year that is a man (sent) off but there is no point whinging about it.
"If I was in Seán Cavanagh's position I'd have done the exact same thing myself. It is nothing against him.
"It's just disappointing for us we didn't get the goal but sure, who is to say we'd have won it anyway even if we'd got the goal."
Hughes felt there were worse incidents taking place on the field than the Cavanagh tackle which provoked a sensational outburst from RTÉ pundit Joe Brolly.
"I don't know what happened with about 15 minutes to go but me and Drew Wylie went on a couple of one-twos and I got cleaned out of it.
"I am still hazy about it. Next thing I looked up and our doctor is on beside me and Tyrone are away up the field. I don't know what happened but I knew by the crowd's reaction it wasn't the right decision.
"We were in a great position but decisions went against us at crucial times. If you had told us in January we'd have played in three finals, won promotion and won an Ulster title I'd have bit your hand off, but that is a sickening defeat."
© Irish Examiner Ltd. All rights reserved
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1098461_588599681179030_1889766766_n.jpg)
I haven't read through today's instalments as I have real things to be doing but the one thing that has struck me about the whole thing, and it may be what has angered Joe the most, is that a casual acceptance of cheating has developed in our games. I think the Cavanagh incident was the spark that lit the tinderbox for Joe but the whole attitude to fair play has been lost. It's like 2 lads going at it in the street. Men would stand toe to toe and have a fair dig, a coward would go to shake hands and throw sand in the other guys face. There is no honour in that as there is no honour in the way the game is developing. Maybe it is a reflection on the greater society or simply Tyrone people :P but the notion that we do what we can, by fair means or foul, has taken precedence in many aspects of the world and f**k you Jack! I coach kids and I coach adults and the one thing I try to instil in them is that it is important to win but it is more important to win with pride and lose with dignity. You get a box, you give a box, you shake hands and you walk off the field. I'm sorry but I think in some places that has been lost.
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 06, 2013, 04:48:31 PM
What about Brolly's assertion that he would never give a jersey to a kid again if he committed a foul like that? I know as a parent there would be questions asked in the club if someone with that attitude was in charge of the kids! I can just see him, towering over a small boy, saliva dripping from his mouth bellowing his sanctimonious nonsense and sending the kid home with his tail between his legs, never to play Gaelic football again - lesson taught and we'll all clap Joe on the back for his noble stance against cynicism!
I would not expect an adult to talk to a child like Brolly did the other night, but I'd like to think pundits on the Sunday Game are not obliged to measure their opinions as if they were talking to a child.
The one part of his rant that I'm in 100% agreement is that juvenile teams should not be taught to be cynical. I remember reading a story about Pat Rafter which has always stuck with me. He was obviously head-and-shoulders above his peers at tennis, so when his father went to see him play competitively for the first time he was looking forward to bursting with pride. Instead he saw a foul-mouthed, petulant spoilt brat, sledging opponents and officials with abandon. Rafter
père hauled him off the court in front of everyone and told his son in no uncertain terms that if he didn't learn to play in a sporting manner then he'd never pick up a tennis racket again. I thought this was a marvellous tribute to a sporting mentor who knew that there's more to sport than just winning. I'm beginning to think I may be out of step with people on that one.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 06, 2013, 05:15:47 PM
You obviously disagree with the parent I spoke to about Brolly being a bad example and that's fair enough, some people will agree and other disagree. However I can say for certain that if myself or anyone else in my own club who was part of the coaching set up of a youth team gave a Brolly-esque performance on the sideline then if I wasn't in trouble with our county board, I would certainly be with my own club in relation to the code of conduct that all coaches operate under. I don't know how things operate in Waterford, but in Tyrone despite some reputations of adult club football and the case of loudmouth village idiots in the stands where pretty much every club has at least one, the county board take very dim views of players & coaches at youth levels who act in such a manner. As far as I know, every club in Tyrone has drawn up codes of conduct covering players, coaches, mentors, members etc for both adults and children not to mention that every youth coach is to have an Access NI certificate. Indeed a few years ago when I was part of a juvenile management team, after a match I was given a warning by the club committee over my sideline conduct which could have brought the club into trouble so I'm not infallible. Personally, I was under some very heavy episodes of depression, the worst I ever had at the time, and the medication I was on made my temper be a hair's width away where I would normally be fairly placid and patient. Not surprisingly a couple of weeks later I ended up in hospital over it all. I'd like to think that I've learned from this experience and to ensure that in future to stay away if something similar could happen again, and just try to be a better person for it.
Just because some clubs close ranks about protecting perpetrators of bad acts doesn't mean it's right in the same way that the majority of adult teams in football now employ systematic tactical fouling isn't healthy for good open games. The one thing I'm not going to do is peruse a tabloid like moral crusade over it.
Okay, but you're assuming he'd behave exactly the same way on a sideline as he would on the Sunday Game. Do you really want that? Pundits thinking "gee, I'd better not say that in case a 12-year-old might be watching"?
He is everywhere Matt Cooper about to Interview the wee shite in a couple of Minutes .
If he weren't giving interviews people would be bitching that he'd gone to ground.
Quote from: small white mayoman on August 06, 2013, 05:32:57 PM
He is everywhere Matt Cooper about to Interview the wee shite in a couple of Minutes .
He's talking about the organ donation campaign
Quote from: deiseach on August 06, 2013, 05:34:38 PM
If he weren't giving interviews people would be bitching that he'd gone to ground.
I wouldn't be one of them ;D
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on August 06, 2013, 05:36:25 PM
Quote from: small white mayoman on August 06, 2013, 05:32:57 PM
He is everywhere Matt Cooper about to Interview the wee shite in a couple of Minutes .
He's talking about the organ donation campaign
Ah thank God for that
Well you made it sound like he's going on specifically to talk about the weekend when that's not true
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on August 06, 2013, 05:36:25 PM
Quote from: small white mayoman on August 06, 2013, 05:32:57 PM
He is everywhere Matt Cooper about to Interview the wee shite in a couple of Minutes .
He's talking about the organ donation campaign
Maybe that's what this is all about ?
He wants to be outrageously controversial so that he can get his message about Organ Donation across.
Means to an end.
Fair enough.
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on August 06, 2013, 05:40:01 PM
Well you made it sound like he's going on specifically to talk about the weekend when that's not true
Apologies just heard him mention Joe Brolly glad he won't be talking about the weekend then
Quote from: orangeman on August 06, 2013, 05:42:05 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on August 06, 2013, 05:36:25 PM
Quote from: small white mayoman on August 06, 2013, 05:32:57 PM
He is everywhere Matt Cooper about to Interview the wee shite in a couple of Minutes .
He's talking about the organ donation campaign
Maybe that's what this is all about ?
He wants to be outrageously controversial so that he can get his message about Organ Donation across.
Means to an end.
Fair enough.
Top bloke in fairness.. ;D
Brolly on Matt Cooper now (today fm).
Quote from: deiseach on August 06, 2013, 05:29:40 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 06, 2013, 05:15:47 PM
You obviously disagree with the parent I spoke to about Brolly being a bad example and that's fair enough, some people will agree and other disagree. However I can say for certain that if myself or anyone else in my own club who was part of the coaching set up of a youth team gave a Brolly-esque performance on the sideline then if I wasn't in trouble with our county board, I would certainly be with my own club in relation to the code of conduct that all coaches operate under. I don't know how things operate in Waterford, but in Tyrone despite some reputations of adult club football and the case of loudmouth village idiots in the stands where pretty much every club has at least one, the county board take very dim views of players & coaches at youth levels who act in such a manner. As far as I know, every club in Tyrone has drawn up codes of conduct covering players, coaches, mentors, members etc for both adults and children not to mention that every youth coach is to have an Access NI certificate. Indeed a few years ago when I was part of a juvenile management team, after a match I was given a warning by the club committee over my sideline conduct which could have brought the club into trouble so I'm not infallible. Personally, I was under some very heavy episodes of depression, the worst I ever had at the time, and the medication I was on made my temper be a hair's width away where I would normally be fairly placid and patient. Not surprisingly a couple of weeks later I ended up in hospital over it all. I'd like to think that I've learned from this experience and to ensure that in future to stay away if something similar could happen again, and just try to be a better person for it.
Just because some clubs close ranks about protecting perpetrators of bad acts doesn't mean it's right in the same way that the majority of adult teams in football now employ systematic tactical fouling isn't healthy for good open games. The one thing I'm not going to do is peruse a tabloid like moral crusade over it.
Okay, but you're assuming he'd behave exactly the same way on a sideline as he would on the Sunday Game. Do you really want that? Pundits thinking "gee, I'd better not say that in case a 12-year-old might be watching"?
And should players in the heat of the battle for a semi final place think "gee, I'd better not do this in case a 12 year might be watching?" Joe had time to formulate his response so that's exactly what he should have been thinking if he's using that audience as a barometer for other peoples behaviour.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_EjyFFb9u0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Just after saying he has never been cynically fouled in his career. 2.15 into the clip above cyncially fouled when clean through on goal. Still refusing to apologise and still a hypocrite.
Had to laugh at him saying Ciaran Whelan was never a cynical player in his career
Quote from: Wee Roddy on August 06, 2013, 02:08:45 PM
Yip you are correct....and the same thing can be said about Tyrone, and Armagh too. Kicked around Croke Park for years with no protection whatsoever. John Lynch was took out of it by Tommy Doyle in 86 and every Tyrone man was took out of it in 1996 against Meath. Toe to toe Tyrone would have beat Kerry in 2003, 05 and 8 as well cause they had better players! Its a mindset where by we are going to get tramped over by anyone anymore.
Thats a lie. You just pulled that out of your arse. Typical Tyrone dishonesty.
Quote from: omagh_gael on August 06, 2013, 06:02:29 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_EjyFFb9u0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Just after saying he has never been cynically fouled in his career. 2.15 into the clip above cyncially fouled when clean through on goal. Still refusing to apologise and still a hypocrite.
Also hauled down at 8.18
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 06, 2013, 06:37:58 PM
Quote from: Wee Roddy on August 06, 2013, 02:08:45 PM
Yip you are correct....and the same thing can be said about Tyrone, and Armagh too. Kicked around Croke Park for years with no protection whatsoever. John Lynch was took out of it by Tommy Doyle in 86 and every Tyrone man was took out of it in 1996 against Meath. Toe to toe Tyrone would have beat Kerry in 2003, 05 and 8 as well cause they had better players! Its a mindset where by we are going to get tramped over by anyone anymore.
Thats a lie. You just pulled that out of your arse. Typical Tyrone dishonesty.
We'll you're the expert, you tube
seen Joe the Day out cycling, plus running into paddy heaney, not a bother in the world, had let my wee tyronies in at work know they missed their chance to give him a piece of their mind lol
Quote from: red hander on August 06, 2013, 06:48:41 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 06, 2013, 06:37:58 PM
Quote from: Wee Roddy on August 06, 2013, 02:08:45 PM
Yip you are correct....and the same thing can be said about Tyrone, and Armagh too. Kicked around Croke Park for years with no protection whatsoever. John Lynch was took out of it by Tommy Doyle in 86 and every Tyrone man was took out of it in 1996 against Meath. Toe to toe Tyrone would have beat Kerry in 2003, 05 and 8 as well cause they had better players! Its a mindset where by we are going to get tramped over by anyone anymore.
Thats a lie. You just pulled that out of your arse. Typical Tyrone dishonesty.
We'll you're the expert, you tube
so show where Tommy Doyle took out John lynch you lying twat ?
I still maintain they never had better players, Tyrone had 5/6 exceptional players but overall teams i though Kerry the the better players otherwise you could go head to head with them and not need a system. Thats is why Dublin may be caught out, they have the better players than anyone this year but a team playing a system to neutrailse them could turn them over. No team can go toe to toe with them in a shoot out and expect to win
Quote from: Wee Roddy on August 06, 2013, 02:08:45 PM
Yip you are correct....and the same thing can be said about Tyrone, and Armagh too. Kicked around Croke Park for years with no protection whatsoever. John Lynch was took out of it by Tommy Doyle in 86 and every Tyrone man was took out of it in 1996 against Meath. Toe to toe Tyrone would have beat Kerry in 2003, 05 and 8 as well cause they had better players! Its a mindset where by we are going to get tramped over by anyone anymore.
Roddy,
No harm to you but your away with the fairies.
Quote from: oakleafgael on August 06, 2013, 09:18:17 PM
Quote from: Wee Roddy on August 06, 2013, 02:08:45 PM
Yip you are correct....and the same thing can be said about Tyrone, and Armagh too. Kicked around Croke Park for years with no protection whatsoever. John Lynch was took out of it by Tommy Doyle in 86 and every Tyrone man was took out of it in 1996 against Meath. Toe to toe Tyrone would have beat Kerry in 2003, 05 and 8 as well cause they had better players! Its a mindset where by we are going to get tramped over by anyone anymore.
Roddy,
No harm to you but your away with the fairies.
Hold on a minute lads, Tyrone did go toe to toe with Kerry in 03 05 & 08. How else would you explain it? They didn't go out and beat them with kid gloves on or at arms length, Tyrone beat them out the gate in 03 and came through 2 great battles in 05 & 08
Quote from: SBH1983 on August 06, 2013, 09:45:21 PM
Quote from: oakleafgael on August 06, 2013, 09:18:17 PM
Quote from: Wee Roddy on August 06, 2013, 02:08:45 PM
Yip you are correct....and the same thing can be said about Tyrone, and Armagh too. Kicked around Croke Park for years with no protection whatsoever. John Lynch was took out of it by Tommy Doyle in 86 and every Tyrone man was took out of it in 1996 against Meath. Toe to toe Tyrone would have beat Kerry in 2003, 05 and 8 as well cause they had better players! Its a mindset where by we are going to get tramped over by anyone anymore.
Roddy,
No harm to you but your away with the fairies.
Hold on a minute lads, Tyrone did go toe to toe with Kerry in 03 05 & 08. How else would you explain it? They didn't go out and beat them with kid gloves on or at arms length, Tyrone beat them out the gate in 03 and came through 2 great battles in 05 & 08
Nah, loads of eye pokes, diving, gouging etc. Tyrone just found newer and more Cynical ways to cheat.
Brolly is dead right about ye.
Love the way that the most sinister off the ball hit which has left young Paddy McNeice with a broken collarbone. http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=198229 This happened right in front of were I was sitting in the Hogan Stand, I suppose it makes you more of a man to hit a man after the ball has been played. No matter I'm loving all this anti Tyrone sentiment no-one will hate you when your losing back in 96 when Meath bate the shite out of us no one cared. Everyone beats on about how poor this team is yet they're in an All Ireland Semi Final hopefully all this unbalanced criticism will drive the lads on as they'll need it against a very impressive Mayo side.
Actually enjoyed Brolly's interview with Cooper more than I thought I would. He basically expressed the sentiments espoused by BC1 and deiseach in their recent posts and I thought he came across quite well. The organ donation work has certainly given him a different perspective on life.
Said he's told Cavanagh himself a couple of times to stop the cynicism etc and would have no problem saying it to him again. He said it wasn't an anti Tyrone or Cavanagh tirade just that they are the top dogs and have been a top team for a decade so it would have more effect if it was pointed at them but that it has become acceptable over the years and he thinks its wrong
At this stage, i'm surprised there hasn't been a "Hitler reacts to Joe Brolly video"?
Listened to the Talkback podcast earlier. The 3 Tyrone callers sounded like Orangemen complaining about not being able to march through a catholic neighbourhood.
There is a reason why Joe Brolly coaches the under 12s.....the older lads struggle to understand him. BOOM!
Quote from: Declan on August 06, 2013, 11:10:05 PM
Actually enjoyed Brolly's interview with Cooper more than I thought I would. He basically expressed the sentiments espoused by BC1 and deiseach in their recent posts and I thought he came across quite well. The organ donation work has certainly given him a different perspective on life.
Said he's told Cavanagh himself a couple of times to stop the cynicism etc and would have no problem saying it to him again. He said it wasn't an anti Tyrone or Cavanagh tirade just that they are the top dogs and have been a top team for a decade so it would have more effect if it was pointed at them but that it has become acceptable over the years and he thinks its wrong
He said it wasn't personal against Sean, but clearly it was.
If it wasn't personal why did he say he wouldn't go for a drink with him?
Joe Brolly is trying to backtrack.
Tyrone were not the most cynical team at the weekend and Sean not the most cynical player (the stats back this up), yet he went after them in a personal attack. I didn't take you as a fool Declan, but it seems you have been taken in by Joe.
Shows the type of he man that he brought in lies about an U16 game to try and add some credibility to his nonsense.
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=198240
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 06, 2013, 09:50:52 PM
Quote from: SBH1983 on August 06, 2013, 09:45:21 PM
Quote from: oakleafgael on August 06, 2013, 09:18:17 PM
Quote from: Wee Roddy on August 06, 2013, 02:08:45 PM
Yip you are correct....and the same thing can be said about Tyrone, and Armagh too. Kicked around Croke Park for years with no protection whatsoever. John Lynch was took out of it by Tommy Doyle in 86 and every Tyrone man was took out of it in 1996 against Meath. Toe to toe Tyrone would have beat Kerry in 2003, 05 and 8 as well cause they had better players! Its a mindset where by we are going to get tramped over by anyone anymore.
Roddy,
No harm to you but your away with the fairies.
Hold on a minute lads, Tyrone did go toe to toe with Kerry in 03 05 & 08. How else would you explain it? They didn't go out and beat them with kid gloves on or at arms length, Tyrone beat them out the gate in 03 and came through 2 great battles in 05 & 08
Nah, loads of eye pokes, diving, gouging etc. Tyrone just found newer and more Cynical ways to cheat.
Brolly is dead right about ye.
Obviously the therapy hasn't been working as regards your disillusionment, paranoia and hatred. Go and lie down in a dark room ... forever ... you sad little Kerry gobshite
Quote from: red hander on August 07, 2013, 03:35:27 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 06, 2013, 09:50:52 PM
Quote from: SBH1983 on August 06, 2013, 09:45:21 PM
Quote from: oakleafgael on August 06, 2013, 09:18:17 PM
Quote from: Wee Roddy on August 06, 2013, 02:08:45 PM
Yip you are correct....and the same thing can be said about Tyrone, and Armagh too. Kicked around Croke Park for years with no protection whatsoever. John Lynch was took out of it by Tommy Doyle in 86 and every Tyrone man was took out of it in 1996 against Meath. Toe to toe Tyrone would have beat Kerry in 2003, 05 and 8 as well cause they had better players! Its a mindset where by we are going to get tramped over by anyone anymore.
Roddy,
No harm to you but your away with the fairies.
Hold on a minute lads, Tyrone did go toe to toe with Kerry in 03 05 & 08. How else would you explain it? They didn't go out and beat them with kid gloves on or at arms length, Tyrone beat them out the gate in 03 and came through 2 great battles in 05 & 08
Nah, loads of eye pokes, diving, gouging etc. Tyrone just found newer and more Cynical ways to cheat.
Brolly is dead right about ye.
Obviously the therapy hasn't been working as regards your disillusionment, paranoia and hatred. Go and lie down in a dark room ... forever ... you sad little Kerry gobshite
really?...you must be the most hate filled poster around these parts sir
First you Nordies inflict "Puke" Football on us, and now you've added "Cynical" Football". What's next? ;)
- Ugly Football
- Orange Football
- Square Football
- Hand Football
- Nordie Football
- Anything-as-long-as-its-not-called-Gaelic Football
The pressure is on Colm O'Rourke to come up with the next "phrase of the week" for the Sunday Game panel to keep up the ratings fight.
feck it, it had to be done...............
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXbtopZsteA&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXbtopZsteA&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 07, 2013, 03:12:23 PM
Shows the type of he man that he brought in lies about an U16 game to try and add some credibility to his nonsense.
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=198240
he should also be made to apologise about his comments about Tyrone minors who he says he 'knows that they are coached to tactically foul'
Brolly seems to think he can just throw out these accusations without having to back up any of them with any sort of facts whatsoever
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 07, 2013, 03:12:23 PM
Shows the type of he man that he brought in lies about an U16 game to try and add some credibility to his nonsense.
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=198240
Its not all lies, Swatragh employed 2 markers on Conor Glass throughout the duration of the game. Lets just say he wasnt allowed to build up a full head of steam.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on August 07, 2013, 04:06:24 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 07, 2013, 03:12:23 PM
Shows the type of he man that he brought in lies about an U16 game to try and add some credibility to his nonsense.
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=198240
Its not all lies, Swatragh employed 2 markers on Conor Glass throughout the duration of the game. Lets just say he wasnt allowed to build up a full head of steam.
Why apologise then? Bringing in 15 year olds to his argument is very low if you ask me. You can forget about Joe as a man as far as I'm concerned!
MARTIN BREHENY – 07 AUGUST 2013
WHEN the loudest, most strident voice sets the agenda, it's time to change the discussion, or at least strip it of sanctimonious humbug.
That's no easy task in the comical case of Joe Brolly and the way he might rant at you. He is, no doubt, luxuriating in the latest tub of notoriety he has filled for himself arising from his portrayal of Tyrone and Sean Cavanagh as footballing degenerates who should be brought before a sporting war crimes tribunal.
There is little evidence to support the case that Joe dislikes being the centre of attention, less still to suggest that he doesn't plan his performances with meticulous timing. What's more, the delivery must be full-on, passionate and uncompromising, accompanied byHollywood-style finger-jabbing theatrics. Joe does it brilliantly, which is scarcely surprising since he is a barrister.
Now, it would be all innocently amusing if it weren't taken so seriously. But in an age when a melodramatic performance by a TV pundit circles the globe in minutes, no doubt influencing those who are happy to have their minds made up for them, even the daftest nonsense can assume credence.
Such is the case with Brolly's illogical tirade against Cavanagh. Joe may have delivered it with his trademark sense of conviction, but however compellingly he forced the point, it came down to this: he was wrong.
Brolly's ire zoomed into the red zone because Cavanagh hauled down Conor McManus as the Monaghan corner-forward galloped through on goal in Saturday's All-Ireland quarter-final.
A goal would have put Monaghan a point ahead, but instead they had to make do with a point from the free. It cut Tyrone's lead to the minimum after 49 minutes, leaving Monaghan with 21 minutes to save the game. It was scarcely an insurmountable barrier if Monaghan were good enough.
Anyway, back to the sensational news, according to Joe.
'PLAYER PULLS DOWN OPPONENT TO AVOID RISK OF GOAL.'
Big deal. It has been happening in Gaelic football since the game was first played. It happens in other sports too, albeit in a different way.
How often do rugby teams deliberately concede penalties close to their own line in a frantic effort to avoid giving away a try? It may be only a temporary reprieve in some cases, but at least it gives the embattled defence a chance to regroup. And, if they can eventually force the attacking side to kick the penalty, the commentators will dutifully explain how relieved the besiegedparty was to concede three rather than seven points for a converted try. In that instance, fouling works, just as it did for Cavanagh on Saturday.
Cavanagh played the rules, taking a yellow card for himself in order to avoid the possible concession of a goal. Now the rules may be wrong, but to suggest that Cavanagh was out of order to use them, to maximise his side's chances of winning the game, is to imply that players have a responsibility to rewrite the regulations in an All-Ireland quarter-final so as to avoid upsetting spectator sensitivities.
Would Brolly have been as disgusted in 1993 if one of his Derry colleagues hauled down an opponent in order to prevent Cork scoring a goal in the All-Ireland final? Would that have been a disgrace? Would the Derry colleague involved be less of a man in Joe's eyes?
If Cavanagh perpetrates a similar offence next year, he will be sent off under the new rules. A sub will be allowed to replace him, which many regard as an over-generous concession, but that's what the GAA membership decided in their response to the rule-changes proposed by Eugene McGee and his Football Review Committee (FRC) this year.
It won't take long to discover if the new sanctions eradicate cynicism. If it works, then there's no need for further action; if not, then a tougher regime can be introduced.
Brolly knows that, yet he chose to pillory Cavanagh for using existing rules to help his team. He played the man not the ball, just as Cavanagh had done 25 minutes earlier. The difference was that Cavanagh, an amateur player, did it to further Tyrone's interests in the All-Ireland championship, while Brolly, a paid pundit, did it as part of TV entertainment.
I have no doubt which was the nobler objective.
Quote from: theticklemister on August 07, 2013, 04:03:53 PM
feck it, it had to be done...............
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXbtopZsteA&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXbtopZsteA&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
Very very good Tickle. Loved it, especially the end !!
Quote from: give her dixie on August 07, 2013, 04:24:41 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on August 07, 2013, 04:03:53 PM
feck it, it had to be done...............
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXbtopZsteA&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXbtopZsteA&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
Very very good Tickle. Loved it, especially the end !!
ye gave me the idea! no work today was also a big help!!!
Quote from: theticklemister on August 07, 2013, 04:03:53 PM
feck it, it had to be done...............
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXbtopZsteA&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXbtopZsteA&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
Brilliant. It had to be done.
Sean Cavanagh's stock is rising all the time.
Worse than anything Sean Cavanagh did........................Robocop OMahony
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHuU3EdJ1NQ
Havn't read of the 7 seven pages on this.
NO, It is not time for joe to go
Quote from: orangeman on August 07, 2013, 04:30:01 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on August 07, 2013, 04:03:53 PM
feck it, it had to be done...............
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXbtopZsteA&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXbtopZsteA&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
Brilliant. It had to be done.
Sean Cavanagh's stock is rising all the time.
Quick note though Tickle....McMenamin is from Dromore which is not even close to being in east Tyrone!!
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 07, 2013, 05:03:34 PM
Quote from: orangeman on August 07, 2013, 04:30:01 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on August 07, 2013, 04:03:53 PM
feck it, it had to be done...............
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXbtopZsteA&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXbtopZsteA&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
Brilliant. It had to be done.
Sean Cavanagh's stock is rising all the time.
Quick note though Tickle....McMenamin is from Dromore which is not even close to being in east Tyrone!!
We will claim him anyway Nally. Sure he would fit in well down in the "East Side"
Quote from: theticklemister on August 07, 2013, 04:29:45 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on August 07, 2013, 04:24:41 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on August 07, 2013, 04:03:53 PM
feck it, it had to be done...............
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXbtopZsteA&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXbtopZsteA&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
Very very good Tickle. Loved it, especially the end !!
ye gave me the idea! no work today was also a big help!!!
It's going viral Tickle........
Good stuff Tickle but it was Conor McManus who was pulled down!
Another Hitler reacts video.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4Lq5llhqSY
This is a better one imho... ;D ;D
http://gaabanter.ie/hitler-reacts-to-sean-cavanaghs-tackle/
Just realised that mistake, always get his name mixed up.
Some boy has another video up on gaa banter. Mine is better but!!!
I didnt mention that mcmenamin was from east tyrone did i??
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 07, 2013, 05:23:46 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on August 07, 2013, 05:22:34 PM
I didnt mention that mcmenamin was from east tyrone did i??
You know what he would do if he found out that you did? ;D
I can see a "Hitler Reacts" to McMenamin been from East Tyrone ..................
When I said ' there' I just meant tyrone not specifically the east. I rushed it!!
"Brolly knows that, yet he chose to pillory Cavanagh for using existing rules to help his team. He played the man not the ball, just as Cavanagh had done 25 minutes earlier. The difference was that Cavanagh, an amateur player, did it to further Tyrone's interests in the All-Ireland championship, while Brolly, a paid pundit, did it as part of TV entertainment.
I have no doubt which was the nobler objective."
Please tell me he doesn't really mean this? BTW Brolly played the man, the ball, the manager and the county!
Quote from: give her dixie on August 07, 2013, 05:29:00 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 07, 2013, 05:23:46 PM
Quote from: theticklemister on August 07, 2013, 05:22:34 PM
I didnt mention that mcmenamin was from east tyrone did i??
You know what he would do if he found out that you did? ;D
I can see a "Hitler Reacts" to McMenamin been from East Tyrone ..................
I can see a 'Hitler reacts' to 'Hitler reacts' videos.
So Cavanagh's let it go now and accepted his apology, is there any chance the rest of ye Tyronies can??
http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=198305
Quote from: screenexile on August 08, 2013, 11:27:36 AM
So Cavanagh's let it go now and accepted his apology, is there any chance the rest of ye Tyronies can??
http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=198305
So he apologised as soon as he came face to face with Sean, even after saying on every media outlet going that he had nothing to apologise for? He truly is a cowardly little weasel.
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 08, 2013, 11:31:19 AM
Quote from: screenexile on August 08, 2013, 11:27:36 AM
So Cavanagh's let it go now and accepted his apology, is there any chance the rest of ye Tyronies can??
http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=198305
So he apologised as soon as he came face to face with Sean, even after saying on every media outlet going that he had nothing to apologise for? He truly is a cowardly little weasel.
was it face to face? maybe a phone call or even skype. You must see the irony of the bit in bold??
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 08, 2013, 11:31:19 AM
Quote from: screenexile on August 08, 2013, 11:27:36 AM
So Cavanagh's let it go now and accepted his apology, is there any chance the rest of ye Tyronies can??
http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=198305
So he apologised as soon as he came face to face with Sean, even after saying on every media outlet going that he had nothing to apologise for? He truly is a cowardly little weasel.
As opposed to yourself... using an anonymous internet forum to call someone in the public domain a cowardly little weasel! Fantastic!!! You Tyronies know how to dig holes alright!
Of course I see the irony......but I'm hardly in the influential position that Joe was in on Saturday night on RTE, and BBC on Monday, Today FM, The Irish Times, Gaelic life etc etc!!
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 08, 2013, 12:04:43 PM
Of course I see the irony......but I'm hardly in the influential position that Joe was in on Saturday night on RTE, and BBC on Monday, Today FM, The Irish Times, Gaelic life etc etc!!
So your trying to justify why you can insult somebody whilst on the other hand criticise someone for insulting some one, go figure :o
So he was in the full glare of the Irish population when he said what he did. Realised part of it was wrong and spoke to the person in question to clarify the situation and apologised, never shirking any questions and approaching the person in question about the situation... yet he's still a coward!
You come on an internet forum of 5000 members and call a man you have no intention of ever meeting face to face a cowardly little weasel behind an anonymous username . . . again I say FANTASTIC!
Good to see Tyrone have great men like you upholding the county's good name.
That is twice in 2 days Joe has had to make public apologies for insulting people. Maybe he will learn from this or maybe not but I certainly hope RTE learn that he is not what is required or wanted by true fans of the game post match. We want to hear a proper analysis of the games tactics and how the game was won and lost. We want to see good passages of play and great scores.
Quote from: Man Marker on August 08, 2013, 12:17:00 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 08, 2013, 12:04:43 PM
Of course I see the irony......but I'm hardly in the influential position that Joe was in on Saturday night on RTE, and BBC on Monday, Today FM, The Irish Times, Gaelic life etc etc!!
So your trying to justify why you can insult somebody whilst on the other hand criticise someone for insulting some one, go figure :o
My point is, you can throw a comment out there, some people will agree some people won't. Do I genuinely believe Joe is a cowardly weasel, of course i don't and what he has done re. the kidney donation proves that! But once the comment is made and then you try to defend it and hammer the point on every media outlet going then the least I would expect from Joe was to back it up when he met Sean. I can just picture Joe in his "jovial" way bouncing up to Sean with all the platitudes in the world playing down the comment he has gone out of the way to make over the last few days on every media forum possible! To me this shows a side to his character that is a bit disingenuous and perhaps cowardly was the wrong word. Sure I'll apologise for that and everything is fine - isn't that the way things work? It's been good enough for Joe twice this week!
Quote from: EC Unique on August 08, 2013, 12:24:41 PM
That is twice in 2 days Joe has had to make public apologies for insulting people. Maybe he will learn from this or maybe not but I certainly hope RTE learn that he is not what is required or wanted by true fans of the game post match. We want to hear a proper analysis of the games tactics and how the game was won and lost. We want to see good passages of play and great scores.
We might see some if there are less rugby tackles.
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 08, 2013, 12:28:50 PM
Quote from: Man Marker on August 08, 2013, 12:17:00 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 08, 2013, 12:04:43 PM
Of course I see the irony......but I'm hardly in the influential position that Joe was in on Saturday night on RTE, and BBC on Monday, Today FM, The Irish Times, Gaelic life etc etc!!
So your trying to justify why you can insult somebody whilst on the other hand criticise someone for insulting some one, go figure :o
My point is, you can throw a comment out there, some people will agree some people won't. Do I genuinely believe Joe is a cowardly weasel, of course i don't and what he has done re. the kidney donation proves that! But once the comment is made and then you try to defend it and hammer the point on every media outlet going then the least I would expect from Joe was to back it up when he met Sean. I can just picture Joe in his "jovial" way bouncing up to Sean with all the platitudes in the world playing down the comment he has gone out of the way to make over the last few days on every media forum possible! To me this shows a side to his character that is a bit disingenuous and perhaps cowardly was the wrong word. Sure I'll apologise for that and everything is fine - isn't that the way things work?
Yes thats how its works, but you need to talk to him personnally and apoligise afterall you have pubically called him a cowardly little weasel on a web site that has thoausands of memebsr and more viewers, you know, just like Joe ;)
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 08, 2013, 12:32:06 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 08, 2013, 12:24:41 PM
That is twice in 2 days Joe has had to make public apologies for insulting people. Maybe he will learn from this or maybe not but I certainly hope RTE learn that he is not what is required or wanted by true fans of the game post match. We want to hear a proper analysis of the games tactics and how the game was won and lost. We want to see good passages of play and great scores.
We might see some if there are less rugby tackles.
You are proving my point for me. There were less frees in the Tyrone-Monaghan game than the other 3 games at the weekend, there were loads of great scores from both teams but people are only talking about one tackle because Joe had a wee hissy fit. It is far from balanced analysis.
Part of me suspects there is a GPA angle here somewhere.
Both were outspoken in the past on such matters, but from different perspectives.
Quote from: EC Unique on August 08, 2013, 12:39:41 PM
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 08, 2013, 12:32:06 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 08, 2013, 12:24:41 PM
That is twice in 2 days Joe has had to make public apologies for insulting people. Maybe he will learn from this or maybe not but I certainly hope RTE learn that he is not what is required or wanted by true fans of the game post match. We want to hear a proper analysis of the games tactics and how the game was won and lost. We want to see good passages of play and great scores.
We might see some if there are less rugby tackles.
You are proving my point for me. There were less frees in the Tyrone-Monaghan game than the other 3 games at the weekend, there were loads of great scores from both teams but people are only talking about one tackle because Joe had a wee hissy fit. It is far from balanced analysis.
It was a key moment in the game. If McManus had scored, Monaghan were the likely winners at that point.
Brolly was right to highlight the incident, but wrong to personalise his criticism.
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 08, 2013, 12:42:00 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 08, 2013, 12:39:41 PM
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 08, 2013, 12:32:06 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 08, 2013, 12:24:41 PM
That is twice in 2 days Joe has had to make public apologies for insulting people. Maybe he will learn from this or maybe not but I certainly hope RTE learn that he is not what is required or wanted by true fans of the game post match. We want to hear a proper analysis of the games tactics and how the game was won and lost. We want to see good passages of play and great scores.
We might see some if there are less rugby tackles.
You are proving my point for me. There were less frees in the Tyrone-Monaghan game than the other 3 games at the weekend, there were loads of great scores from both teams but people are only talking about one tackle because Joe had a wee hissy fit. It is far from balanced analysis.
It was a key moment in the game. If McManus had scored, Monaghan were the likely winners at that point.
Brolly was right to highlight the incident, but wrong to personalise his criticism.
Yes he was right to highlight it but as far as I remember that is ALL they talked about after the game. Surely that is unfair on the other players and management.
What if: Declan O'Sullivan did the same to Kevin McManamon in the final 2 years ago?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B8yqLAX7iE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B8yqLAX7iE)
Quote from: Man Marker on August 08, 2013, 12:35:03 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 08, 2013, 12:28:50 PM
Quote from: Man Marker on August 08, 2013, 12:17:00 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 08, 2013, 12:04:43 PM
Of course I see the irony......but I'm hardly in the influential position that Joe was in on Saturday night on RTE, and BBC on Monday, Today FM, The Irish Times, Gaelic life etc etc!!
So your trying to justify why you can insult somebody whilst on the other hand criticise someone for insulting some one, go figure :o
My point is, you can throw a comment out there, some people will agree some people won't. Do I genuinely believe Joe is a cowardly weasel, of course i don't and what he has done re. the kidney donation proves that! But once the comment is made and then you try to defend it and hammer the point on every media outlet going then the least I would expect from Joe was to back it up when he met Sean. I can just picture Joe in his "jovial" way bouncing up to Sean with all the platitudes in the world playing down the comment he has gone out of the way to make over the last few days on every media forum possible! To me this shows a side to his character that is a bit disingenuous and perhaps cowardly was the wrong word. Sure I'll apologise for that and everything is fine - isn't that the way things work?
Yes thats how its works, but you need to talk to him personnally and apoligise afterall you have pubically called him a cowardly little weasel on a web site that has thoausands of memebsr and more viewers, you know, just like Joe ;)
I apologised on the public forum on which i made the comments. Would you expect Joe to apologise publicly on the Sunday Game, Today FM, The Nolan Show etc etc? It's only fair!
Quote from: muppet on August 08, 2013, 12:55:28 PM
What if: Declan O'Sullivan did the same to Kevin McManamon in the final 2 years ago?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B8yqLAX7iE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B8yqLAX7iE)
What if: the rules are applied.
1) O'Sullivan counts McManamon's steps
2) He sees step number 4 coming up and thinks McManamon's going to over carry
3) He doesn't commit to the tackle and the ref blows for overcarrying on the 5th step (or even the 6th, 7th, 8th or 9th)
4) Free out to Kerry, 4 points up, 6 minutes left and on the attack
What if: the rules aren't applied
1) O'Sullivan counts McManamon's steps
2) He sees step number 4 coming up and thinks McManamon's going to over carry
3) He doesn't commit to the tackle and the ref allows McManamon to take 10 steps
4) McManamon buries it in the corner of the net and the Dubs are 1 point down instead of 4 with 6 minutes left
5) O'Sullivan's team mates ask him why the f**k he didn't do everything he could to stop him
Quote from: take_yer_points on August 08, 2013, 01:28:24 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 08, 2013, 12:55:28 PM
What if: Declan O'Sullivan did the same to Kevin McManamon in the final 2 years ago?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B8yqLAX7iE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B8yqLAX7iE)
What if: the rules are applied.
1) O'Sullivan counts McManamon's steps
2) He sees step number 4 coming up and thinks McManamon's going to over carry
3) He doesn't commit to the tackle and the ref blows for overcarrying on the 5th step (or even the 6th, 7th, 8th or 9th)
4) Free out to Kerry, 4 points up, 6 minutes left and on the attack
What if: the rules aren't applied
1) O'Sullivan counts McManamon's steps
2) He sees step number 4 coming up and thinks McManamon's going to over carry
3) He doesn't commit to the tackle and the ref allows McManamon to take 10 steps
4) McManamon buries it in the corner of the net and the Dubs are 1 point down instead of 4 with 6 minutes left
5) O'Sullivan's team mates ask him why the f**k he didn't do everything he could to stop him
It would have been simpler to pull him down.
Quote from: muppet on August 08, 2013, 01:32:06 PM
Quote from: take_yer_points on August 08, 2013, 01:28:24 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 08, 2013, 12:55:28 PM
What if: Declan O'Sullivan did the same to Kevin McManamon in the final 2 years ago?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B8yqLAX7iE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B8yqLAX7iE)
What if: the rules are applied.
1) O'Sullivan counts McManamon's steps
2) He sees step number 4 coming up and thinks McManamon's going to over carry
3) He doesn't commit to the tackle and the ref blows for overcarrying on the 5th step (or even the 6th, 7th, 8th or 9th)
4) Free out to Kerry, 4 points up, 6 minutes left and on the attack
What if: the rules aren't applied
1) O'Sullivan counts McManamon's steps
2) He sees step number 4 coming up and thinks McManamon's going to over carry
3) He doesn't commit to the tackle and the ref allows McManamon to take 10 steps
4) McManamon buries it in the corner of the net and the Dubs are 1 point down instead of 4 with 6 minutes left
5) O'Sullivan's team mates ask him why the f**k he didn't do everything he could to stop him
It would have been simpler to pull him down.
And more rewarding I'd imagine. But at least he's still a man in Joe's eyes
Quote from: screenexile on August 08, 2013, 12:02:19 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 08, 2013, 11:31:19 AM
Quote from: screenexile on August 08, 2013, 11:27:36 AM
So Cavanagh's let it go now and accepted his apology, is there any chance the rest of ye Tyronies can??
http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=198305
So he apologised as soon as he came face to face with Sean, even after saying on every media outlet going that he had nothing to apologise for? He truly is a cowardly little weasel.
As opposed to yourself... using an anonymous internet forum to call someone in the public domain a cowardly little weasel! Fantastic!!! You Tyronies know how to dig holes alright!
As opposed to yourself... using an anonymous internet forum to bitch incessantly about "Tyronies"!
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 08, 2013, 12:42:00 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 08, 2013, 12:39:41 PM
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on August 08, 2013, 12:32:06 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 08, 2013, 12:24:41 PM
That is twice in 2 days Joe has had to make public apologies for insulting people. Maybe he will learn from this or maybe not but I certainly hope RTE learn that he is not what is required or wanted by true fans of the game post match. We want to hear a proper analysis of the games tactics and how the game was won and lost. We want to see good passages of play and great scores.
We might see some if there are less rugby tackles.
You are proving my point for me. There were less frees in the Tyrone-Monaghan game than the other 3 games at the weekend, there were loads of great scores from both teams but people are only talking about one tackle because Joe had a wee hissy fit. It is far from balanced analysis.
It was a key moment in the game. If McManus had scored, Monaghan were the likely winners at that point.
Brolly was right to highlight the incident, but wrong to personalise his criticism.
there was 20 minutes left at that stage FFS!!
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 08, 2013, 01:42:29 PM
Quote from: screenexile on August 08, 2013, 12:02:19 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 08, 2013, 11:31:19 AM
Quote from: screenexile on August 08, 2013, 11:27:36 AM
So Cavanagh's let it go now and accepted his apology, is there any chance the rest of ye Tyronies can??
http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=198305
So he apologised as soon as he came face to face with Sean, even after saying on every media outlet going that he had nothing to apologise for? He truly is a cowardly little weasel.
As opposed to yourself... using an anonymous internet forum to call someone in the public domain a cowardly little weasel! Fantastic!!! You Tyronies know how to dig holes alright!
As opposed to yourself... using an anonymous internet forum to bitch incessantly about "Tyronies"!
I'm far from anonymous on this forum ... I thought Tyronies would be quite a welcome change to what youse are normally called!
Hitler's correct, the people from Tyrone are a bunch of hoorbags.
one thing Joe has certainly achieved is increase the post rate on this board over the last week!
Quote from: screenexile on August 08, 2013, 01:54:53 PMI'm far from anonymous on this forum ... I thought Tyronies would be quite a welcome change to what youse are normally called!
Ah sure why would Tyrone people care about what a Canadian has to say? ;)
Does Joe view or post on the board ?
If he does, there's not a hate wrong with Joe - great fella. He does a lot of very good work.
If he does, same comments apply.
Yous Derry wans are getting very excited about this craic.Joe's word is taken as gospel by the Joke leafs.As Derry are always out of the championship at this stage Joe's views are about all you have to look forward to on the Sunday Game.
Quote from: muppet on August 08, 2013, 12:55:28 PM
What if: Declan O'Sullivan did the same to Kevin McManamon in the final 2 years ago?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B8yqLAX7iE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B8yqLAX7iE)
I mentioned this one before in my many, many pointless posts on this incident :) The background to this is that Dec O'Sullivan was at least 'scrambled' at this stage, if you remember, after a Ger Brennan collision earlier on where he got a shoulder around the head area.
I have no doubt that he'd have fould McMenamon if he was in the whole of his health. Actually he'd not have turned the ball over in midfield in the first place, but he'd certainly have fouled him. Last Sunday he dragged down a Cavan man who was threatening to come out with the ball in his own full back line.
Quote from: Club Rossa on August 08, 2013, 02:27:56 PM
Yous Derry wans are getting very excited about this craic.Joe's word is taken as gospel by the Joke leafs.As Derry are always out of the championship at this stage Joe's views are about all you have to look forward to on the Sunday Game.
Nice try Rossa ;)
It was a similar style tackle that your keeper pulled off against Dromore a few years back! Ouch.
Jayus lads the fact that you are all getting so worked up over Joe means his job is done. RTE quite clearly have a formula which has worked in soccer for some years now with Dunphy, Brady and Giles bickering away and have worked it into the Sunday Game. I don't always agree with Joe but Christ he's the reason I choose RTE analysis over BBC...even though Jarlath and Oisin (Praise be upon them) are contributors. Yes Sunday was a bit OTT, but do you know Sean Cavanagh has been the one Tyrone footballer I have admired most over the years and that still stands. In an ideal world McManus would have been allowed to work the keeper but by the same token if any player from a team I was coaching didn't stop an advancing forward I'd be pissed off. Joe is right this is an issue for the GAA and the whole disciplinary process needs looked at with a toting up system and match bans as opposed to calender weeks is required. As for the so called attacks on Cavanagh well it goes with the turf. As for Mickey Harte given his recent troubles I would normally say leave him in peace, except he courts the media and is happy to give his opinions for money in the IN...a bit like Joe...eh?
Trying to think of incidents where Glen did the same in a co. final Walter but i'm beat.We'll not mention the minors though ;)
Quote from: Club Rossa on August 08, 2013, 03:05:15 PM
Trying to think of incidents where Glen did the same in a co. final Walter but i'm beat.We'll not mention the minors though ;)
Haha.... we dont partake above minors!!
The problem I'd have with the reaction to this is the stunning cynicism with regard to the ex-players who have commented on it. We are still an amateur sport, but the over riding mantra here is "do what has to be done" - a philosophy that created Eastern European steroid farms, Flo Jo, Ben Johnson, Lance Armstrong, Pete Rose, Calciopoli, Balco. Coupled with this cynicism from the actual players is the wilful niavety we display ourselves as fans. Can we honestly believe that if we tolerate a culture that allows such calculation in search of victory on the pitch, that off it things are living up to the Corinthian ideals of amateurism?
I'm not saying that I have any knowledge of organised cheating off the pitch, but the logical outcome of this philosophy isn't hard to see. I've heard Cavanagh's actions (who I hugely admire as a footballer and a man) excused by the fact that he is an elite athlete, and that is what they do - they win. All of the examples above are of elite athletes who won.
I play five a side still and the other week chopped down my best mate with a horrible challenge to stop him scoring. But I'm not an elite athlete (and I'm a bit of a clown) and during my own, mercifully short, playing career I substituted faux hard-man pretensions for actual skill. At the highest level you'd hope that skill is the difference between the journeyman and the legend. People have always tried to take out the skilful - think of Matt Connor skipping challenges, Mikey Sheehy shrugging off Cork full back lines, Bernard Brogan scoring a point with three Donegal players on his back. What is most depressing about all this is that Cavanagh felt the need to do it, and Cavanagh in full flow is one of the greatest expressions of the game. Even the angels are carrying forks now.
I don't personally have any problem with Cavanagh doing it. What I do have a problem with is the shoulder shrugging acceptance of this philosophy. The GAA needs to not only to change the rules, but also change their attitude towards changing rules. They are the guardians of the game - the protection and encouragement of skill should be paramount. Rule changes should be a fluid and ongoing, evolving process, because you can be damn sure that managers are making their plans for the black card now.
Brolly was over the top, sure - but let's use it as a catalyst for change rather than an excuse for a fatwa.
Easytiger, I've commented ad nauseum on this in the other threads, but basically my take on it is that every player I know, or have known, would make that same 'tackle' in the same situation. It's desperation stuff, and you can't really take that sense of desperation out of things because it's such a spontaneous thing. By all means punish it with a straight red if that's what people want to do.
However, my issue is that in highlighting *this* incident, Joe and others are taking the spotlight off the really calculated, cynical but less obvious fouls that happen out the field. He's making this about the dramatic, last ditch desperation lunge as opposed to the real problem in my opinion which is the deliberate, instructed fouls made by midfielders, half forwards and full forwards to 'kill the game' and allow the packed defences get set up.
Quote from: easytiger95 on August 08, 2013, 03:36:10 PM
What is most depressing about all this is that Cavanagh felt the need to do it, and Cavanagh in full flow is one of the greatest expressions of the game. Even the angels are carrying forks now.
Great line, just about sums it up. Welcome back et.
Fair enough AZ - and as I said, as a card carrying member of the corner back fraternity I probably would have rugby tackled him at the handshake. Completely agree with the more systemic stuff being cracked down on - my point was more about the depressing reaction from ex players. Yes we know you're being honest, but very few of them brought the debate forward - most either thought there was nothing wrong with it under the "getting it done" rule, or else seemed to think there was nothing we could do about it.
As systems evolve, so should the rules - this shoulder-shrugging apathy really bugs me. Things can change if the will is there, and if Brolly's mis-guided missile provides some kind of impetus, it will have served a purpose.
Good to be back Croí by the way.
GAA must tackle yellow card farce
By Joe Kernan
If Joe Brolly is seeking the perfect sport, then he should abandon the GAA. It has been abundantly clear that over the last 30 years in particular, cynical fouling – some indeed would call it strategic fouling – has been endemic within Gaelic football.
Strangely, too, it has persisted despite the fact that the high-profile matches in particular come under the most forensic scrutiny from commentators and pundits.
So should we really be surprised that one analyst in particular has obviously decided that enough is enough and has come down particularly hard on what he brands "a disgrace"?
The furore since Brolly's outburst – he had a justifiable point that lost some of its gravitas through his rather intemperate language – perhaps best highlights the fact that the rules in relation to tackling in particular are insufficient to deal adequately with the problems that arise on an ongoing basis.
Seldom in the colourful history of the Association has one tackle –Sean Cavanagh's rugby-style 'arrest' of Conor McManus in the Tyrone v Monaghan game last Saturday – caused so much controversy.
In an era in which virtually everyone has access to social media networking, it's no surprise that all and sundry are lobbing in their tuppence worth on this contentious issue.
Cavanagh, a triple All-Ireland winner who is currently playing some of the best football of his career, has been pilloried for a tackle that 99 out of 100 players would have made had they been faced with a similar situation.
What he did, he did for the team – that's the long and the short of it.
As a consequence, his very character has been assailed while his qualities as a man have been questioned – and let's remember, we are dealing with an amateur sport here.
Yet this is the same Sean Cavanagh who, shortly after his side had beaten Monaghan, took time out to admit that his opposite number Darren Hughes, one of the finest players in the country, should not have incurred the yellow card which he suffered for a quite legal challenge on him in the early stages of the game.
That sanction undoubtedly curtailed Hughes' subsequent contribution to the contest given his understandable apprehension in relation to what could have been a fateful second yellow.
Cavanagh's defence of his Ulster team colleague said more about the demeanour of the Moy man than the tackle which incurred the wrath of Brolly and has dominated every conversation of a sporting nature in this country since Saturday.
The fact of the matter is that the rules of the GAA in relation to tackling are framed in such a way that a player can escape censure for committing such a serious offence.
A yellow card? Do me a favour – players laugh off such a mild slap on the wrist.
Incurring a yellow card, indeed, is not even an irritant compared to the concession of a goal at a crucial stage of a high-intensity championship match in which the stakes are high.
Tyrone manager Mickey Harte has since expressed surprise and indeed bewilderment at what he views as much too heavy emphasis on one aspect of last Saturday's game.
Harte goes further and reminds us, with considerable justification, that fouling of an even more serious nature was commonplace in Gaelic football in years gone by.
He is quite right there but thankfully the GAA moved to clean up its act and while the sport is far from completely sanitised, it is certainly a much better product than it was when I was playing.
And that is just as well because nowadays the families and friends of players are certainly not going to stand idly by and see someone they love become the victim of a thuggish action out on the park.
Chances are that they would be prepared to invoke the one course of action which tends to send a shiver down the spine of the GAA – and that is litigation.
For now, though, cynicism is still prevalent within the sport and until even more firm steps are taken to root it out, the problem which besmirched Tyrone's 0-14 to 0-12 victory over Monaghan on Saturday will reoccur.
In an era in which every element of the major games is closely dissected, the pressure on players to abide by the rules and on referees to get decisions right is enormous.
But then that's how it should be – if players and officials cannot stick the heat then they should get out of the kitchen.
Efforts have been made to amend rules and various punitive measures have been put forward in recent years but these have not got the necessary backing at Congress to ensure that they can become enshrined in the Official Guide.
That is a great pity, particularly as many people within the sport including several leading administrators have been predicting that cynical fouling could have serious consequences for the image of Gaelic football.
The fact that Tyrone have booked their place in the All-Ireland semi-finals should not be allowed to disguise the fact that the sport has been brought into disrepute.
Indeed, it is disappointing that after a weekend which produced four entertaining quarter-finals, the Association should continue to be making the headlines for all the wrong reasons with one tackle an all-consuming topic.
Belfast Telegraph
Friday 9 August 2013
Incidentally Joe Brolly has had some amount of media exposure in the last week, he must be lapping it up. Off the top of my head he has been in the Irish Daily Mail, the Sunday Game, UTV live, Today FM, TV3am, BBC radio, Gaelic Life, The Irish Times. He must be laughing.
How do i put this , Joe Kernan seems to write with eloquence and use of a vocabulary that he chooses to ignore whilst speaking!
Quote from: Bensars on August 09, 2013, 11:26:43 AM
How do i put this , Joe Kernan seems to write with eloquence and use of a vocabulary that he chooses to ignore whilst speaking!
;D
What could you be implying?
Time for the thread to go, Brolly said sorry to Cavanagh move on...
Quote from: rodney trotter on August 09, 2013, 11:36:09 AM
Time for the thread to go, Brolly said sorry to Cavanagh move on...
Fair enough but maybe a new thread about what sort of pundits would we like to see on RTE, what sort of analysis would the average GAA fan like post match?
Quote from: yellowcard on August 09, 2013, 11:21:54 AM
GAA must tackle yellow card farce
By Joe Kernan
If Joe Brolly is seeking the perfect sport, then he should abandon the GAA. It has been abundantly clear that over the last 30 years in particular, cynical fouling – some indeed would call it strategic fouling – has been endemic within Gaelic football.
Strangely, too, it has persisted despite the fact that the high-profile matches in particular come under the most forensic scrutiny from commentators and pundits.
So should we really be surprised that one analyst in particular has obviously decided that enough is enough and has come down particularly hard on what he brands "a disgrace"?
The furore since Brolly's outburst – he had a justifiable point that lost some of its gravitas through his rather intemperate language – perhaps best highlights the fact that the rules in relation to tackling in particular are insufficient to deal adequately with the problems that arise on an ongoing basis.
Seldom in the colourful history of the Association has one tackle –Sean Cavanagh's rugby-style 'arrest' of Conor McManus in the Tyrone v Monaghan game last Saturday – caused so much controversy.
In an era in which virtually everyone has access to social media networking, it's no surprise that all and sundry are lobbing in their tuppence worth on this contentious issue.
Cavanagh, a triple All-Ireland winner who is currently playing some of the best football of his career, has been pilloried for a tackle that 99 out of 100 players would have made had they been faced with a similar situation.
What he did, he did for the team – that's the long and the short of it.
As a consequence, his very character has been assailed while his qualities as a man have been questioned – and let's remember, we are dealing with an amateur sport here.
Yet this is the same Sean Cavanagh who, shortly after his side had beaten Monaghan, took time out to admit that his opposite number Darren Hughes, one of the finest players in the country, should not have incurred the yellow card which he suffered for a quite legal challenge on him in the early stages of the game.
That sanction undoubtedly curtailed Hughes' subsequent contribution to the contest given his understandable apprehension in relation to what could have been a fateful second yellow.
Cavanagh's defence of his Ulster team colleague said more about the demeanour of the Moy man than the tackle which incurred the wrath of Brolly and has dominated every conversation of a sporting nature in this country since Saturday.
The fact of the matter is that the rules of the GAA in relation to tackling are framed in such a way that a player can escape censure for committing such a serious offence.
A yellow card? Do me a favour – players laugh off such a mild slap on the wrist.
Incurring a yellow card, indeed, is not even an irritant compared to the concession of a goal at a crucial stage of a high-intensity championship match in which the stakes are high.
Tyrone manager Mickey Harte has since expressed surprise and indeed bewilderment at what he views as much too heavy emphasis on one aspect of last Saturday's game.
Harte goes further and reminds us, with considerable justification, that fouling of an even more serious nature was commonplace in Gaelic football in years gone by.
He is quite right there but thankfully the GAA moved to clean up its act and while the sport is far from completely sanitised, it is certainly a much better product than it was when I was playing.
And that is just as well because nowadays the families and friends of players are certainly not going to stand idly by and see someone they love become the victim of a thuggish action out on the park.
Chances are that they would be prepared to invoke the one course of action which tends to send a shiver down the spine of the GAA – and that is litigation.
For now, though, cynicism is still prevalent within the sport and until even more firm steps are taken to root it out, the problem which besmirched Tyrone's 0-14 to 0-12 victory over Monaghan on Saturday will reoccur.
In an era in which every element of the major games is closely dissected, the pressure on players to abide by the rules and on referees to get decisions right is enormous.
But then that's how it should be – if players and officials cannot stick the heat then they should get out of the kitchen.
Efforts have been made to amend rules and various punitive measures have been put forward in recent years but these have not got the necessary backing at Congress to ensure that they can become enshrined in the Official Guide.
That is a great pity, particularly as many people within the sport including several leading administrators have been predicting that cynical fouling could have serious consequences for the image of Gaelic football.
The fact that Tyrone have booked their place in the All-Ireland semi-finals should not be allowed to disguise the fact that the sport has been brought into disrepute.
Indeed, it is disappointing that after a weekend which produced four entertaining quarter-finals, the Association should continue to be making the headlines for all the wrong reasons with one tackle an all-consuming topic.
Belfast Telegraph
Friday 9 August 2013
Incidentally Joe Brolly has had some amount of media exposure in the last week, he must be lapping it up. Off the top of my head he has been in the Irish Daily Mail, the Sunday Game, UTV live, Today FM, TV3am, BBC radio, Gaelic Life, The Irish Times. He must be laughing.
Yep shortly after the game, not shortly after the incident ::)
Quote from: EC Unique on August 09, 2013, 12:22:44 PM
Quote from: rodney trotter on August 09, 2013, 11:36:09 AM
Time for the thread to go, Brolly said sorry to Cavanagh move on...
Fair enough but maybe a new thread about what sort of pundits would we like to see on RTE, what sort of analysis would the average GAA fan like post match?
Suppose Brolly is never dull anyway. Always with the unexpected. He says it as it is but in a OTT way.
Apologies if it is already on one of the 23780 threads about Joe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4Lq5llhqSY&sns=em (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4Lq5llhqSY&sns=em)
Quote from: Bensars on August 09, 2013, 11:26:43 AM
How do i put this , Joe Kernan seems to write with eloquence and use of a vocabulary that he chooses to ignore whilst speaking!
I find considerable justification in your intemperate besmirching. ;D
http://www.jeromequinnmedia.com/-blog/Opt-for-Life_96
Listen to Joe at the start of this especially.
He says he shamelessly is using his celebrity to advance the cause of his opt for life campaign.
Joe is going to use whatever power he has as a celebrity to make changes in organ donation and the GAA and whatever other cause(s) he chooses to carry the torch for.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on August 09, 2013, 02:08:23 PM
Quote from: Aristo 60 on August 09, 2013, 12:39:00 PMYep shortly after the game, not shortly after the incident ::)
What did you expect him to do? Should we always tell the referee that we think it was wrong if him to award a free kick or penalty in our favour? Hughes' yellow card was a mistake by the referee, but by the same token the late penalty award to Monaghan against Tyrone in the Ulster Minor final was never a penalty itself either and arguably cost Tyrone the title. Sometimes teams get the benefit of referee's incorrect decisions, sometimes it goes against them, for most teams this usually balances themselves out somewhat.
Well your "mistake by the referee" is another man's "dive".
Anyway, my point was this; JK is lauding SC for being magnanimous after the victory. It doesn't take anyone special to do that.
I'd like to maybe think JK is having a wee dig at SC here, but he probably ain't.
Quote from: orangeman on August 09, 2013, 03:27:27 PM
http://www.jeromequinnmedia.com/-blog/Opt-for-Life_96
Listen to Joe at the start of this especially.
He says he shamelessly is using his celebrity to advance the cause of his opt for life campaign.
Joe is going to use whatever power he has as a celebrity to make changes in organ donation and the GAA and whatever other cause(s) he chooses to carry the torch for.
What was his excuse before that?
Quote from: orangeman on August 09, 2013, 03:27:27 PM
http://www.jeromequinnmedia.com/-blog/Opt-for-Life_96
Listen to Joe at the start of this especially.
He says he shamelessly is using his celebrity to advance the cause of his opt for life campaign.
Joe is going to use whatever power he has as a celebrity to make changes in organ donation and the GAA and whatever other cause(s) he chooses to carry the torch for.
I honesty do not see any problem in him using his status to promote such as cause. In the Gaelic Life yesterday he opening advertised a fund raising cycle for the Michaela Foundation which he is taking part in.
I can also say that I do not think his rant last Saturday was completely premeditated.
Quote from: Throw ball on August 09, 2013, 04:59:59 PM
Quote from: orangeman on August 09, 2013, 03:27:27 PM
http://www.jeromequinnmedia.com/-blog/Opt-for-Life_96
Listen to Joe at the start of this especially.
He says he shamelessly is using his celebrity to advance the cause of his opt for life campaign.
Joe is going to use whatever power he has as a celebrity to make changes in organ donation and the GAA and whatever other cause(s) he chooses to carry the torch for.
I honesty do not see any problem in him using his status to promote such as cause. In the Gaelic Life yesterday he opening advertised a fund raising cycle for the Michaela Foundation which he is taking part in.
I can also say that I do not think his rant last Saturday was completely premeditated.
There was a good 20mins between the tackle and the rant so it's not as if they cut to Joe straight away. He had plenty of time to compose himself and a man of his intelligence and in his profession doesn't lose the run of himself like that. If he decided to create a furore to get some exposure for his campaign, well, fair enough, but that's a bit of a strange way to go about, though judging by the last paragraph on the Joe Kernan article, he certainly achieved his aim.
Quote from: Throw ball on August 09, 2013, 04:59:59 PM
Quote from: orangeman on August 09, 2013, 03:27:27 PM
http://www.jeromequinnmedia.com/-blog/Opt-for-Life_96
Listen to Joe at the start of this especially.
He says he shamelessly is using his celebrity to advance the cause of his opt for life campaign.
Joe is going to use whatever power he has as a celebrity to make changes in organ donation and the GAA and whatever other cause(s) he chooses to carry the torch for.
I honesty do not see any problem in him using his status to promote such as cause. In the Gaelic Life yesterday he opening advertised a fund raising cycle for the Michaela Foundation which he is taking part in.
I can also say that I do not think his rant last Saturday was completely premeditated.
I'm not saying there's any problem with it either by the way.
That's what celebs do.
New to the board but here goes anyway. Firstly I don't think for one minute that Brollys rant was a spontaneous reaction to the cavanagh foul. I think his attack was premeditated and a cynical attempt to maximise his own publicity. Had Joe's motivation been truly a concern for the highlighting of cynical play in the GAA then RTE could have compiled a Montague of footage from a wide spread of game's and player's to emphasis his point. Instead he goes for the most high profile player and managee in the game and like all good journalists he makes it personal to ensure that the story has legs and will therefore maximise his publicity. Joes motivation has to be questioned in these circumstances. Is it designed to maximise his own profile to either help support his own personal goals for his charitable work or is it even more cynical in that it is for his own financial gain possibly protecting his own position as a paid analyst and jornalist work. As Joe Kernan has already pointed out he has gained a maximisation in the publicity stakes from his out burst. This is not the first time Joe has had a go. In the 00's he was Tyrones chief cheerleader not because he held its players or manager in any high regard but it made good TV to have spats with Spillane and O'Rourke. Last year in the lead up to the All Ireland final he labelled Mayo as the most cynical team in the country yet a year later the same team of players and manager are now the saviour of traditional football. I can't take him seriously if everything he does and say appears to be designed to court publicity especially when it's at the expense of amateurs like cavanagh harte horan and the whole Tyrone and Mayo teams. He may be kidding the masses but he doesn't kid me.
Quote from: hardstation on August 09, 2013, 11:38:42 PM
When is a dive a dive? Is everyone who goes to ground upon contact trying to con the ref or do they just see it as a way to get out of a tackle and retain possession? What I mean is if a player is running with the ball and a tackle comes in, falling to the ground and getting up again (or passing it off when on the ground) may be the best way to avoid being dispossessed. If the ref doesn't give a free - no problem. If the ref gives a free - problem.
Ah but falling down and pulling the defender on top of you is definitely a dive ... as demonstrated by the master himself last weekend!
Quote from: screenexile on August 10, 2013, 03:19:13 AM
Quote from: hardstation on August 09, 2013, 11:38:42 PM
When is a dive a dive? Is everyone who goes to ground upon contact trying to con the ref or do they just see it as a way to get out of a tackle and retain possession? What I mean is if a player is running with the ball and a tackle comes in, falling to the ground and getting up again (or passing it off when on the ground) may be the best way to avoid being dispossessed. If the ref doesn't give a free - no problem. If the ref gives a free - problem.
Ah but falling down and pulling the defender on top of you is definitely a dive ... as demonstrated by the master himself last weekend!
A lot of what are termed the marquee forwards are looking to make deliberate contact with the defender in order to get tangled up.
Brolly's picture of getting a handful of the defender's jersey proves they were at it back then as well.
Quote from: orangeman on August 10, 2013, 09:17:52 AM
Quote from: screenexile on August 10, 2013, 03:19:13 AM
Quote from: hardstation on August 09, 2013, 11:38:42 PM
When is a dive a dive? Is everyone who goes to ground upon contact trying to con the ref or do they just see it as a way to get out of a tackle and retain possession? What I mean is if a player is running with the ball and a tackle comes in, falling to the ground and getting up again (or passing it off when on the ground) may be the best way to avoid being dispossessed. If the ref doesn't give a free - no problem. If the ref gives a free - problem.
Ah but falling down and pulling the defender on top of you is definitely a dive ... as demonstrated by the master himself last weekend!
A lot of what are termed the marquee forwards are looking to make deliberate contact with the defender in order to get tangled up.
Brolly's picture of getting a handful of the defender's jersey proves they were at it back then as well.
Ah lads, in every sport there's ways to gain an advantage and its all part of the game. Do we want to remove all the individuality from the sport and replace it by rule after rule. Defenders tug jerseys, stand on toes, tackle with the fist, tap heels etc. Forwards try to exploit the opportunities they get, if Darren Hughes had tackled with the near hand then Sean wouldn't have had the opportunity to do what he did. He reached in with the far hand and Sean could draw the foul (though it wasn't a booking), it's no more cheating than a defender tugging a jersey on the sly as a forward makes a run. It's all part of the fringes of the game which is never going to be perfect when one man is marking another and trying to get the upper hand. This issue shouldn't be lumped in with the cynical fouling which I agree is a more serious problem.
Paul Grimley's article in today's Irish News has ratcheted up pressure on Brolly. Granted Grimely has an axe to grind but I think Joe's publicity stunt is hopefully beginning to backfire on him. I detected some conciliatory tones in the Brolly article in The Gaelic Life trying to portray a sense of spontaneous anger behind his rant. I fully expect a little humility from Joe the next day as he rows back from personal attacks and concentrates on wider issues of gamesmanship and cynicism in the game to secure the impression that this is his motivation and not just a publicity stunt. Joe is shrewd enough to know the GAA public will not stand for individuals using the sport for their own selfish self promotion. To answer the question asked in this thread yes it is time for him to go. It is time RTE binned the sensational sound bite analysis format and start promoting proper game's analysis like they do with hurling.
Billy Keane in today's indo.
RTE analyst Joe Brolly hasn't lost any of his passion for the game
BILLY KEANE – 10 AUGUST 2013
There was a day when I threw a sheep at Joe Brolly. Or a good bit of a sheep anyway. Definitely the outside of a sheep, which was on the inside of my slippers.
Brolly had a go at Kerry on TV for winning all those soft All-Irelands. All 36 of them. And he was very hard on Paul Galvin at a time when Paul's life was in turmoil.
There was a man who used to come into our bar back in the days when 10-year-olds served strong drink. His name was Billeen and he told us stories of his heroics in the Second World War.
There was one tale about pulling a barge full of wounded soldiers across the English Channel from Dunkirk, with a rope between his teeth. But that is of no relevance whatsoever in the context of Brolly and his rant at Sean Cavanagh on 'The Sunday Game Live' after Sean dived on Monaghan's Conor McManus when he was bearing down on goal.
But what is relevant is that Billeen used to wear horseshoes on the soles of his hard-baked hobnail boots. Keep it to yourself. If word gets out, there won't be a shoemaker left in the country.
Sparks came out of Billeen's heels when he walked. His gait was that of a dressage horse with side steps, shifts, exaggerated lifts and a rhythmic clippity clop when he broke into a trot. I suppose you could say he was a horse of a man.
There was a time when I felt Billeen's boots wouldn't be half hard enough for kicking Brolly's a***.
BORING
Mickey Harte said Brolly was boring. Ah Mickey, stick to the coaching and the motivational speaking. Stuff you're very good at. You'll never make it as a TV critic.
Brolly wasn't boring on the pitch either. He was very fast and classy. A showman who taunted the opposition fans with kisses, but sure it was only a bit of harmless fun.
Boring, no. Dogmatic and wrong, yes. But I'll never throw a shoe at Brolly again. For Brolly is a man of great courage. Joe gave a kidney to a man he knew only fairly well. A man with young kids. For me, that was the day Brolly became Joe.
Yes, he's Joe now. He looks shaken since the operation. Thinner and a little greyer. Tired sometimes, and new care lines are written across his face.
But the donation hasn't killed his passion. Ah, but Joe lost it completely on TV. He was in a fit he couldn't stop. Like many of us fanatics who are hopelessly in thrall to the game of Gaelic football. Joe Brolly values the game he loves so well. Understands the ethics and the obligations of players and managers alike towards our young people and society. Joe cares.
There is an uncomfortableness when someone tells the truth. You feel for the person exposed but know at the same time that what must be said, must be said. For the greater good.
So it was with Sean Cavanagh, who on song is the best player in the country. That he should rugby tackle a player going through to score a goal is morally wrong. Yet we all did it. I did anyway. But that doesn't make it right. You'd have to feel for Sean, though. He is not a dirty player. Sean was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He is a product of what has become the win-at-all-costs mentality.
It was also a spur-of-the-moment thing.
Sean should have been sent off. And that would have been the end of the matter.
The rules are there to be applied. Dangerous play it was. What if McManus had fallen and broke his collarbone, or his head connected with another player's boot? The tackle was from behind so McManus couldn't have been ready to brace himself for the fall. The tackle was more than the simple pulling of a jersey.
Almost definitely a red card would have meant a Monaghan win. Tyrone supporters have had great years. Their superb team won three Sams. Monaghan haven't even been in a semi for decades. Monaghan were badly wronged.
It's more than sport.
Maybe if there were more who made us uncomfortable with truths in this island of zero degrees of separation, we wouldn't be in such a mess. Everyone knows someone. Fine to have a go in, say, England, where you might only run into the object of your accusation maybe once in a lifetime, and the size of the place means it's most unlikely you will meet his mother in the local pub.
'The Sunday Game' full-forward line of Pat Spillane, Colm O'Rourke and Joe Brolly have done our sport and our country a great service by simply telling the truth.
But that's the big picture.
Now Joe went too far with his criticism. It's a northern thing. This telling of the truth and the no holding back is fine, but the line "in so far as he's a man, you can forget about it" was out of order.
Sean comes from the Moy where Loyalist murderers drove off the motorway and shot dead innocent GAA men, just for kicks. His house is only a few yards from the GAA pitch. Men and women fought hard for that field. Their boy deserves more. Sean Cavanagh loves the game and must have spent hours practising. His people will be hurting.
But Brolly – he's Brolly again – had lost it completely by then.
There are times when we take a pull at the reins in this column. Players are young and unpaid. Sometimes you must make allowances for sportsmen, and hold back on the kind of full-on criticism I would unleash in my non-sports column on politicians, for example.
Joe is too hard on individual players as opposed to teams, where the burden can be shared. Personal stuff should be off limits such as a line from Joe referring to Paul Galvin's suitability for his then profession.
Joe has since apologised to Sean for that one line. Courage again from Joe. This time in backing down. And manliness from Sean in accepting the apology. But Joe was right in his main premise. The tackle was just plain wrong and no amount of excuses can justify it.
Would that there were more like him, in this barrel of an island, with no corner to hide in, in these dangerous days for the GAA when ruthless, dishonest managers with no moral values coach the kid out of boys and men.
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 10, 2013, 09:30:18 AM
if Darren Hughes had tackled with the near hand then Sean wouldn't have had the opportunity to do what he did. He reached in with the far hand and Sean could draw the foul (though it wasn't a booking), it's no more cheating than a defender tugging a jersey on the sly as a forward makes a run.
i) It wasn't a foul.
ii) It
was cheating.
The Billy Keane article is complete horse excrement their is no place for personalised attacks on players and manager's who are amateurs by paid analysts. His excuse that its Brollys northern heritage is at the heart of his direct talking style is laughable. If anything Joes origins should have given him a greater insight in how personalising issues and events can be very dangerous as many people have suffered in the north as a result of intemperate use of language.
Quote from: Sidney on August 10, 2013, 09:58:04 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 10, 2013, 09:30:18 AM
if Darren Hughes had tackled with the near hand then Sean wouldn't have had the opportunity to do what he did. He reached in with the far hand and Sean could draw the foul (though it wasn't a booking), it's no more cheating than a defender tugging a jersey on the sly as a forward makes a run.
i) It wasn't a foul.
ii) It was cheating.
I) It was a foul - the ref gave it.
II) it's not cheating
Vincent Hogan: Joe, are Donegal really that much different to Tyrone?
Joe Brolly has rarely deviated from anything but expressions of awe for Donegal manager Jim McGuinness, but his team must take some responsibility for games like the tempestuous league clash against Tyrone in Omagh, a game where you felt both teams deserved one another
VINCENT HOGAN – 10 AUGUST 2013
Joe Brolly believes that, for his role with 'The Sunday Game' to be authentic, his contributions should be indistinguishable from what you might expect to hear in a public house.
We know this because Joe said so. "Why should TV punditry be any different from the way we discuss the games in the pubs?" he wrote recently. For a man of his legal expertise, this was really quite a question.
The notion that a TV pundit should speak with the same freedoms as, say, someone just mouthing beerily off a high stool suggests an odd interpretation of Joe's responsibilities in front of a TV camera.
If this was the case, perhaps RTE should just shelve all studio discussion and run a live half-time feed from, say, a pub at the bottom of Jones's Road instead.
Now Joe has such a wonderfully sharp mind that, when he speaks, it is often hard to assimilate what is earnest from what is mischievous. No question, he's never lacked the courage of his convictions. Any man who can blow kisses to a Tyrone crowd after scoring an Ulster championship goal against them should certainly never be mistaken for any big sister's blouse.
DEVIL
But, in Joe's eyes, Tyrone seem to have become the devil incarnates of football by recognising that tackling an opponent rugby-style can be profitable in certain circumstances. You might imagine that, until Mickey Harte cottoned on to this fact, the game was the province of a bunch of Rebeccas from Sunnybrook Farm.
Is the rugby tackle any more repugnant than the body check with elbow raised? The 'accidental' foot-trip? Sledging? Kidney punching? The systemic colliding with an opponent after he has released the ball?
Now Tyrone aren't especially easy on the eye, but what precisely does the rugby tackle make them uniquely guilty of?
Earlier this year, their league clash with Donegal in Omagh was an ugly exchange, capped charmlessly by an allegation of spitting at the conclusion. Watching the game, you couldn't help but feel that both teams pretty much deserved one another.
One of the more demoralising aspects to it was Donegal's use of Michael Murphy, arguably the most talented forward in Gaelic football. His primary role seemed to be one of tactical fouling, targeted at stopping Tyrone's backs carrying the ball out of defence. Murphy was gone before half-time, the rightful recipient of two yellow cards.
Yet, Joe Brolly has rarely deviated from anything but expressions of awe for Donegal since their breakthrough under Jim McGuinness.
Labelling their young manager "the Jose Mourinho of Gaelic football", Joe suggested that McGuinness had "entirely redefined the game", despite – as he put it – "the revulsion" generated by their uniquely negative approach to the 2011 All-Ireland semi-final against Dublin.
A basic tenet of Donegal's success in recent years has been their strategy of fouling around the middle third of the field on the basis that it is an area outside the conversion zone of most place-kickers.
To this end, Tyrone found a goalkeeper (Niall Morgan) who, in Joe's words, would "ruthlessly punish" that strategy when the sides clashed in Ulster this year. As it happened, Morgan proved anything but ruthless on the day and, sadly, had his season ended by injury soon after.
No matter, Donegal's victory was lauded by Joe as apt reward for a team that was "focused, relentless and humble. They are unaffected by outside influences. They are – as my son Toirealach put it on Sunday evening when I got home – awesome."
A year ago, Monaghan's Dick Clerkin suggested in a newspaper interview that his county was "not cynical enough" in their pursuit of success. This season, the general recognition of their breakthrough came accompanied by acceptance that Monaghan pretty much answered Dick's call.
Just now, Mayo look the most compelling team in the race for Sam Maguire, primarily because they have adjusted to a game that is profoundly unromantic in personality.
But then Sean Boylan's Meath, Joe Kernan's Armagh or, dare we say, Eamonn Coleman's Derry never played football that could be mistaken for daffodil waving.
And if you've never heard of Mickey 'Ned' O'Sullivan, just go and type 'YouTube' in front of his name to see how genteel Dublin and Kerry were with one another during the gloriously mythologised '70s.
Brolly's eruption made good television last Saturday night and, it is true, triggered a wider debate. But why the anger now? His depiction of Tyrone and Sean Cavanagh as some kind of philosophically isolated community suddenly taking Gaelic football to a dark place doesn't stand up to any serious scrutiny.
That said, it is good that he – at least – apologised to Cavanagh this week. After all, humility in the legal profession isn't something that rises with every dawn.
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 10, 2013, 10:06:17 AM
Quote from: Sidney on August 10, 2013, 09:58:04 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 10, 2013, 09:30:18 AM
if Darren Hughes had tackled with the near hand then Sean wouldn't have had the opportunity to do what he did. He reached in with the far hand and Sean could draw the foul (though it wasn't a booking), it's no more cheating than a defender tugging a jersey on the sly as a forward makes a run.
i) It wasn't a foul.
ii) It was cheating.
I) It was a foul - the ref gave it.
II) it's not cheating
i) Did Hughes successfully tackle the ball in a legal manner? Yes.
ii) Did Cavanagh deliberately drag him down? Yes.
iii) Did Cavanagh deliberately and successfully con the referee? Yes.
iv) Since when is deliberately conning the referee not cheating? It's always been cheating in my book, but clearly some people prefer to turn a blind eye when certain teams and players do it, usually their own. I'd like to think I'm not one of those people.
Quote from: SkillfulBill on August 10, 2013, 09:36:14 AM
It is time RTE binned the sensational sound bite analysis format and start promoting proper game's analysis like they do with hurling.
After the Cork-Kilkenny match when at least three other players apart from Shefflin and probably more should have been sent off - Shane O'Neill for a deliberate strike with the hurley, Michael Fennelly for fighting on the ground for 30 seconds with Lorcain McLoughlin (probably a red card for both players in itself) and a neck high tackle, and Eoin Murphy for deliberate striking with the hurley, Liam Sheedy said "there wasn't a dirty stroke in the game".
There is as much poor and cliched analysis in hurling as there is in football.
Here's a different Kerry man saying something different altogether -
Time to legalise 'rugby tackle' in Gaelic football, says Walsh
Wednesday, August 07, 2013
Seán Walsh believes the legalisation of the tackle made by Seán Cavanagh on Conor McManus on Saturday can be a major step in curbing cynicism and lead to a more free-flowing game.
By John Fogarty
GAA CorrespondentThe former Munster and Kerry chairman is a long-time advocate of the International Rules-style challenge which, when committed, would force the player in possession to release the ball or a free is awarded the other way.
Walsh would like to see tackles such as the controversial one made three days ago permitted and his view was yesterday endorsed by Ireland's 2011 International Rules vice-captain, Ciarán McKeever.
The Armagh defender tweeted: "The rugby tackle should be took in as are main tackle in GAA at least everyone will be clear on what a tackle is."
Walsh said: "What I found in my two years as manager of the International Rules team was the tackle was tidied up. It stopped players bringing the ball into the tackle because they knew they would lose it if they didn't use it.
"It opened up the play completely and the ball moved faster. In training, players adapted to it and got into the habit of using the ball instead of holding onto it for long periods.
"That sort of tackle would increase the amount of kicking and reduce solo runs because players don't want to be caught and either lose the play or concede a free."
The Football Review Committee's (FRC) redefinition of the tackle was backed at March's Congress.
It will read in next year's edition of the rule book as "a skill by which a player may dispossess an opponent or frustrate his objective within the rules of fair play. The tackle is aimed at the ball, not the player.
"The tackler may use his body to confront the opponent but deliberate bodily contact (such as punching, slapping, arm holding, pushing, tripping, jersey pulling or a full frontal charge) is forbidden.
"The only deliberate physical contact can be a fair charge, i.e. shoulder-to-shoulder with at least one foot on the ground. More than one player can tackle the player in possession."
Walsh doesn't believe the rewording goes far enough as much as he was a major supporter of the FRC's black card, which he sees as an advance for Gaelic football but believes more steps can be taken.
"I supported the black card because I believed it was needed. It won't solve all our problems but it's a start, it's definitely a start in the right direction.
"What I found interesting after Saturday was so many inter-county players said they would do the same thing as Seán Cavanagh because it's within the rules in the sense it only merits a yellow card.
"From next year the punishment is much more severe."
Walsh was disappointed at the personal criticism of the Tyrone midfielder following the All-Ireland quarter-final. "I wouldn't be blaming Seán Cavanagh for what he did and I meant that sincerely. He was punished accordingly for his foul and was prepared to take a yellow card. I worked for those two years in the International Rules squad with Seán Cavanagh and there is no finer gentleman and no finer player."
Joe praised this morning in Belfast Telegraph by the paper's religious correspendent who describes himself as a "Protestant who enjoys watching top class Gaelic football". You'd wonder why he watches Tyrone then? ;D
Quote from: SkillfulBill on August 10, 2013, 10:03:47 AM
their is no place for personalised attacks on players and manager's who are amateurs by paid analysts. His excuse that its Brollys northern heritage is at the heart of his direct talking style is laughable. If anything Joes origins
Apostrophe and grammar carnage >:(
What did Joe say? Missed all this.
QuoteJoe praised this morning in Belfast Telegraph by the paper's religious correspendent who describes himself as a "Protestant who enjoys watching top class Gaelic football". You'd wonder why he watches Tyrone then?
The Belfast Telegraph publishes some odd stuff, was this in the letters column?
No.In Alf Mc Creary's (religious correspondent) normal Saturday column.
I wonder does Joe's moral indignation and resolve to do the right and honest thing at all times extend to his legal clients that he knows are as guilty as hell but try every trick in the book to get off the hook?
Joe said on Monday past there that he had found a new sense of spirituality recently after the kidney donation.
But I suppose once he goes though the doors of the studio or the courthouse, business is business.
Joe will be having that broad smile and tittering to himself that we're now well over 40 pages talking about him.
What surprised me about Joe this week was his need to tell people how much others support him. I'm always wary of people who retweet their own praise.
Quote from: ONeill on August 11, 2013, 12:13:21 AM
What surprised me about Joe this week was his need to tell people how much others support him. I'm always wary of people who retweet their own praise.
Don't forget the hundreds of phoencalls to the house and the parents who called him as well.
and the mystery GAA officials who congratulated him.
Quote from: SkillfulBill on August 09, 2013, 10:27:17 PM
New to the board but here goes anyway. Firstly I don't think for one minute that Brollys rant was a spontaneous reaction to the cavanagh foul. I think his attack was premeditated and a cynical attempt to maximise his own publicity. Had Joe's motivation been truly a concern for the highlighting of cynical play in the GAA then RTE could have compiled a Montague of footage from a wide spread of game's and player's to emphasis his point. Instead he goes for the most high profile player and managee in the game and like all good journalists he makes it personal to ensure that the story has legs and will therefore maximise his publicity. Joes motivation has to be questioned in these circumstances. Is it designed to maximise his own profile to either help support his own personal goals for his charitable work or is it even more cynical in that it is for his own financial gain possibly protecting his own position as a paid analyst and jornalist work. As Joe Kernan has already pointed out he has gained a maximisation in the publicity stakes from his out burst. This is not the first time Joe has had a go. In the 00's he was Tyrones chief cheerleader not because he held its players or manager in any high regard but it made good TV to have spats with Spillane and O'Rourke. Last year in the lead up to the All Ireland final he labelled Mayo as the most cynical team in the country yet a year later the same team of players and manager are now the saviour of traditional football. I can't take him seriously if everything he does and say appears to be designed to court publicity especially when it's at the expense of amateurs like cavanagh harte horan and the whole Tyrone and Mayo teams. He may be kidding the masses but he doesn't kid me.
I agree. In fairness to Joe he's a clever guy and he knows how to get people talking about him and he doesn't care how so long as it's all about Joe.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 11, 2013, 12:19:43 AM
Quote from: SkillfulBill on August 09, 2013, 10:27:17 PM
New to the board but here goes anyway. Firstly I don't think for one minute that Brollys rant was a spontaneous reaction to the cavanagh foul. I think his attack was premeditated and a cynical attempt to maximise his own publicity. Had Joe's motivation been truly a concern for the highlighting of cynical play in the GAA then RTE could have compiled a Montague of footage from a wide spread of game's and player's to emphasis his point. Instead he goes for the most high profile player and managee in the game and like all good journalists he makes it personal to ensure that the story has legs and will therefore maximise his publicity. Joes motivation has to be questioned in these circumstances. Is it designed to maximise his own profile to either help support his own personal goals for his charitable work or is it even more cynical in that it is for his own financial gain possibly protecting his own position as a paid analyst and jornalist work. As Joe Kernan has already pointed out he has gained a maximisation in the publicity stakes from his out burst. This is not the first time Joe has had a go. In the 00's he was Tyrones chief cheerleader not because he held its players or manager in any high regard but it made good TV to have spats with Spillane and O'Rourke. Last year in the lead up to the All Ireland final he labelled Mayo as the most cynical team in the country yet a year later the same team of players and manager are now the saviour of traditional football. I can't take him seriously if everything he does and say appears to be designed to court publicity especially when it's at the expense of amateurs like cavanagh harte horan and the whole Tyrone and Mayo teams. He may be kidding the masses but he doesn't kid me.
I agree. In fairness to Joe he's a clever guy and he knows how to get people talking about him and he doesn't care how so long as it's all about Joe.
But tyrone and cavanaghs tackle weren't Joes Fault and they couldn't try and give him more ammunition if they tried. I think the personal stuff he comes out with is wrong but i think his point is correct although cavanagh did nothing wrong imo. You can't say he wasn't genuinely angry and it was some sort of act, he's a barrister not an oscar winner. For me he was genuinely angry, that would go against your argument that it was premeditated. We all get carried away sometimes and lose the run of ourselves, i know i have on here. There is some truth in that joes likes the publicity for sure but i don't think this was premeditated, how could it be. it makes me laugh when people call managers in gaa amateurs, really do people still buy into that.
Why was it called a rugby tackle? It looked more like a Compromise Rules tackle. Cavanagh was just getting his shout in for early inclusion to that squad later this year!
Absolutely his attack was premeditated. He set it up the week before and knew Tyrone would allow him the chance to let rip the following weekend as like any high level game you will find examples of cynical fouling. Granted Cavanaghs foul played into his hands. Your argument that he is a barrister and not a Oscar winning actor holds no water there is very little difference between the two professions. Both require the skills to make fiction believable. Joe is a very clever and calculated individual and his attack was designed to court maximum publicity for his own purposes. If you know the guy or know people who know him personally ask them if it was premeditated or not.
Quote from: Aristo 60 on August 09, 2013, 12:39:00 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 09, 2013, 11:21:54 AM
GAA must tackle yellow card farce
By Joe Kernan
If Joe Brolly is seeking the perfect sport, then he should abandon the GAA. It has been abundantly clear that over the last 30 years in particular, cynical fouling – some indeed would call it strategic fouling – has been endemic within Gaelic football.
Strangely, too, it has persisted despite the fact that the high-profile matches in particular come under the most forensic scrutiny from commentators and pundits.
So should we really be surprised that one analyst in particular has obviously decided that enough is enough and has come down particularly hard on what he brands "a disgrace"?
The furore since Brolly's outburst – he had a justifiable point that lost some of its gravitas through his rather intemperate language – perhaps best highlights the fact that the rules in relation to tackling in particular are insufficient to deal adequately with the problems that arise on an ongoing basis.
Seldom in the colourful history of the Association has one tackle –Sean Cavanagh's rugby-style 'arrest' of Conor McManus in the Tyrone v Monaghan game last Saturday – caused so much controversy.
In an era in which virtually everyone has access to social media networking, it's no surprise that all and sundry are lobbing in their tuppence worth on this contentious issue.
Cavanagh, a triple All-Ireland winner who is currently playing some of the best football of his career, has been pilloried for a tackle that 99 out of 100 players would have made had they been faced with a similar situation.
What he did, he did for the team – that's the long and the short of it.
As a consequence, his very character has been assailed while his qualities as a man have been questioned – and let's remember, we are dealing with an amateur sport here.
Yet this is the same Sean Cavanagh who, shortly after his side had beaten Monaghan, took time out to admit that his opposite number Darren Hughes, one of the finest players in the country, should not have incurred the yellow card which he suffered for a quite legal challenge on him in the early stages of the game.
That sanction undoubtedly curtailed Hughes' subsequent contribution to the contest given his understandable apprehension in relation to what could have been a fateful second yellow.
Cavanagh's defence of his Ulster team colleague said more about the demeanour of the Moy man than the tackle which incurred the wrath of Brolly and has dominated every conversation of a sporting nature in this country since Saturday.
The fact of the matter is that the rules of the GAA in relation to tackling are framed in such a way that a player can escape censure for committing such a serious offence.
A yellow card? Do me a favour – players laugh off such a mild slap on the wrist.
Incurring a yellow card, indeed, is not even an irritant compared to the concession of a goal at a crucial stage of a high-intensity championship match in which the stakes are high.
Tyrone manager Mickey Harte has since expressed surprise and indeed bewilderment at what he views as much too heavy emphasis on one aspect of last Saturday's game.
Harte goes further and reminds us, with considerable justification, that fouling of an even more serious nature was commonplace in Gaelic football in years gone by.
He is quite right there but thankfully the GAA moved to clean up its act and while the sport is far from completely sanitised, it is certainly a much better product than it was when I was playing.
And that is just as well because nowadays the families and friends of players are certainly not going to stand idly by and see someone they love become the victim of a thuggish action out on the park.
Chances are that they would be prepared to invoke the one course of action which tends to send a shiver down the spine of the GAA – and that is litigation.
For now, though, cynicism is still prevalent within the sport and until even more firm steps are taken to root it out, the problem which besmirched Tyrone's 0-14 to 0-12 victory over Monaghan on Saturday will reoccur.
In an era in which every element of the major games is closely dissected, the pressure on players to abide by the rules and on referees to get decisions right is enormous.
But then that's how it should be – if players and officials cannot stick the heat then they should get out of the kitchen.
Efforts have been made to amend rules and various punitive measures have been put forward in recent years but these have not got the necessary backing at Congress to ensure that they can become enshrined in the Official Guide.
That is a great pity, particularly as many people within the sport including several leading administrators have been predicting that cynical fouling could have serious consequences for the image of Gaelic football.
The fact that Tyrone have booked their place in the All-Ireland semi-finals should not be allowed to disguise the fact that the sport has been brought into disrepute.
Indeed, it is disappointing that after a weekend which produced four entertaining quarter-finals, the Association should continue to be making the headlines for all the wrong reasons with one tackle an all-consuming topic.
Belfast Telegraph
Friday 9 August 2013
Incidentally Joe Brolly has had some amount of media exposure in the last week, he must be lapping it up. Off the top of my head he has been in the Irish Daily Mail, the Sunday Game, UTV live, Today FM, TV3am, BBC radio, Gaelic Life, The Irish Times. He must be laughing.
Yep shortly after the game, not shortly after the incident ::)
Big Joe is just as much a part of rent a gob with that effort.
"Anyone else would have done it" is a very poor argument.
I have not seen a decent defence of the tackle.
Quote from: ONeill on August 11, 2013, 12:13:21 AM
What surprised me about Joe this week was his need to tell people how much others support him. I'm always wary of people who retweet their own praise.
+1
;)
Quote from: SkillfulBill on August 11, 2013, 02:22:47 PM
Absolutely his attack was premeditated. He set it up the week before and knew Tyrone would allow him the chance to let rip the following weekend as like any high level game you will find examples of cynical fouling. Granted Cavanaghs foul played into his hands. Your argument that he is a barrister and not a Oscar winning actor holds no water there is very little difference between the two professions. Both require the skills to make fiction believable. Joe is a very clever and calculated individual and his attack was designed to court maximum publicity for his own purposes. If you know the guy or know people who know him personally ask them if it was premeditated or not.
Exactly I am glad to hear people say this and that even more people are finally copping on to his agenda.The irony is Joe Brolly is more cynical in his outbursts than Mickey Harte or Tyrone will ever be in their play.
You'd want to hear Brolly wallow in his own notoriety in his column today in the Irish Mail. He's happier than an pig in shite. He refers to people discussing his rant "up and down the country" and "DUP politician wading in on the issue". I'd say he expects Obama to give his two cents any minute.
Say what you like about Joe but he's an attention-seeking gobshite.
Quote from: trileacman on August 11, 2013, 10:40:51 PM
You'd want to hear Brolly wallow in his own notoriety in his column today in the Irish Mail. He's happier than an pig in shite. He refers to people discussing his rant "up and down the country" and "DUP politician wading in on the issue". I'd say he expects Obama to give his two cents any minute.
Say what you like about Joe but he's an attention-seeking gobshite.
Noble peace prize awaits!
Quote from: seafoid on August 11, 2013, 02:48:04 PM
Quote from: Aristo 60 on August 09, 2013, 12:39:00 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 09, 2013, 11:21:54 AM
GAA must tackle yellow card farce
By Joe Kernan
If Joe Brolly is seeking the perfect sport, then he should abandon the GAA. It has been abundantly clear that over the last 30 years in particular, cynical fouling – some indeed would call it strategic fouling – has been endemic within Gaelic football.
Strangely, too, it has persisted despite the fact that the high-profile matches in particular come under the most forensic scrutiny from commentators and pundits.
So should we really be surprised that one analyst in particular has obviously decided that enough is enough and has come down particularly hard on what he brands "a disgrace"?
The furore since Brolly's outburst – he had a justifiable point that lost some of its gravitas through his rather intemperate language – perhaps best highlights the fact that the rules in relation to tackling in particular are insufficient to deal adequately with the problems that arise on an ongoing basis.
Seldom in the colourful history of the Association has one tackle –Sean Cavanagh's rugby-style 'arrest' of Conor McManus in the Tyrone v Monaghan game last Saturday – caused so much controversy.
In an era in which virtually everyone has access to social media networking, it's no surprise that all and sundry are lobbing in their tuppence worth on this contentious issue.
Cavanagh, a triple All-Ireland winner who is currently playing some of the best football of his career, has been pilloried for a tackle that 99 out of 100 players would have made had they been faced with a similar situation.
What he did, he did for the team – that's the long and the short of it.
As a consequence, his very character has been assailed while his qualities as a man have been questioned – and let's remember, we are dealing with an amateur sport here.
Yet this is the same Sean Cavanagh who, shortly after his side had beaten Monaghan, took time out to admit that his opposite number Darren Hughes, one of the finest players in the country, should not have incurred the yellow card which he suffered for a quite legal challenge on him in the early stages of the game.
That sanction undoubtedly curtailed Hughes' subsequent contribution to the contest given his understandable apprehension in relation to what could have been a fateful second yellow.
Cavanagh's defence of his Ulster team colleague said more about the demeanour of the Moy man than the tackle which incurred the wrath of Brolly and has dominated every conversation of a sporting nature in this country since Saturday.
The fact of the matter is that the rules of the GAA in relation to tackling are framed in such a way that a player can escape censure for committing such a serious offence.
A yellow card? Do me a favour – players laugh off such a mild slap on the wrist.
Incurring a yellow card, indeed, is not even an irritant compared to the concession of a goal at a crucial stage of a high-intensity championship match in which the stakes are high.
Tyrone manager Mickey Harte has since expressed surprise and indeed bewilderment at what he views as much too heavy emphasis on one aspect of last Saturday's game.
Harte goes further and reminds us, with considerable justification, that fouling of an even more serious nature was commonplace in Gaelic football in years gone by.
He is quite right there but thankfully the GAA moved to clean up its act and while the sport is far from completely sanitised, it is certainly a much better product than it was when I was playing.
And that is just as well because nowadays the families and friends of players are certainly not going to stand idly by and see someone they love become the victim of a thuggish action out on the park.
Chances are that they would be prepared to invoke the one course of action which tends to send a shiver down the spine of the GAA – and that is litigation.
For now, though, cynicism is still prevalent within the sport and until even more firm steps are taken to root it out, the problem which besmirched Tyrone's 0-14 to 0-12 victory over Monaghan on Saturday will reoccur.
In an era in which every element of the major games is closely dissected, the pressure on players to abide by the rules and on referees to get decisions right is enormous.
But then that's how it should be – if players and officials cannot stick the heat then they should get out of the kitchen.
Efforts have been made to amend rules and various punitive measures have been put forward in recent years but these have not got the necessary backing at Congress to ensure that they can become enshrined in the Official Guide.
That is a great pity, particularly as many people within the sport including several leading administrators have been predicting that cynical fouling could have serious consequences for the image of Gaelic football.
The fact that Tyrone have booked their place in the All-Ireland semi-finals should not be allowed to disguise the fact that the sport has been brought into disrepute.
Indeed, it is disappointing that after a weekend which produced four entertaining quarter-finals, the Association should continue to be making the headlines for all the wrong reasons with one tackle an all-consuming topic.
Belfast Telegraph
Friday 9 August 2013
Incidentally Joe Brolly has had some amount of media exposure in the last week, he must be lapping it up. Off the top of my head he has been in the Irish Daily Mail, the Sunday Game, UTV live, Today FM, TV3am, BBC radio, Gaelic Life, The Irish Times. He must be laughing.
Yep shortly after the game, not shortly after the incident ::)
Big Joe is just as much a part of rent a gob with that effort.
"Anyone else would have done it" is a very poor argument.
I have not seen a decent defence of the tackle.
Afaiu, Joe Kernan is not making an argument in defence of the tackle, he made an argument that Cavanagh should not be singled out for making such a cynical tackle that 99% of players would have made and willingly taken the yellow card under the current rules.
It was a no brainer tackle.
Sad that a brilliant forward like McManus, after skinning passed two Tyrone defenders as if they were carthorses, was felled in such a crude manner but perhaps it was just the last straw in the accumulation of cynical Tyrone football that made it stand out. Truly sad that Tyrone have to resort to such tactics to keep ahead of Div 3 plodders, in the game. Once upon a time they could play football.
Actually it was the 2nd half in the game against Kildare that Cavanagh was guilty of the darker side of cynical play when he acted as if he was brutally felled, in shooting range for a crucial free kick, the ref didn't fall for it, as Cavanagh wailed to the heavens at the injustice of it all.
Salt in the wound stuff from last year.
(http://www.balls.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/1-1905dc95a8-580x844.jpg)
Just got round to watching the Tyrone v Kildare game (Sky+ is great) Sean Cavanagh got booked for the excate same type of rugby tackle on Daryl Flynn in the 66th minute, grabbing hold of his waist and dragging him to the ground. so to say this type of tackle frpm sean is a one off would be a tad of the mark!
QuoteJoe Brolly@JoeBrolly199318h
Bumped into this fellow on the street today. Thankfully he didn't perform his famous ball flick on me.(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BRfozygCUAArIiQ.jpg:large)
I've watched the rant several times and read sections of this thread but not all of it.
Here is my points of view
Brolly seemed calm and balanced before the game & at half time. He even joked about the incident where he dragged down Hughes and got him sent off and said we've all done that, laughing to the other two pundits.
The Cavanagh incident didn't happen right at the end of the game and actually Peter Harte did a similar pull down back in Monaghan's own half much closer to the end but Brolly never mentioned that.
Brolly should have calmed down by the time the game was over but it seems he was more put out that he had been given the man of the match award that really pushed him over the edge according to his article in the Gaelic Life. (http://"http://gaeliclife.com/2013/08/joe-brolly-his-first-column-since-that-incident/")
There is no doubt Brolly has a point and most of us would rather not watch these cheating incidents and whilst most other teams do do it, Tyrone have been on live tv for 3 weekends on the trot and each time it seemed to be an actual tactic rather than a rash spur of the moment decision. Both big Sean and Petey seem to use it quite a bit which looks bad in my eyes. No doubt both have suffered enough at being pulled down themselves but this doesn't make it any better.
There is no doubt Brolly loves the limelight and he has really upped the ante now with this rant causing him to make national news and beyond. The bit that really grinds my gears is that his lack of respect for others around him. I am no fan of Spillane but week in week out he sits next to those other lads and shouts them down, uses his hands to push and cajole them, talk over them when they make their points and uses the "HOWL ON" comment to stop them interrupting them. I can only imagine his wife and family don't watch him on live as they must be mortified.
His own self importance now will be greatly boosted as many will take the attitude that he made a good point on live tv with a lot of passion and that with the new black card rules coming in next year he will no doubt be taking a lot of credit for highlighting the "professional foul" problem that has really raised it's head over the last few years. You would imagine now there will be motions in place to somehow award a penalty or something for such incidents that stops a one on one goal chance.
He does go over the top at times & the way he personalises things is more than a little annoying, but if you want to make an impression & get things done then that is what you have to do in the world of today.
Everyone is talking about these "pull down" tackles now because of what Brolly said & the chances of something being done is much higher than if he had done the "reasoned criticism" thing. He would just need to be careful & not overdo it otherwise the effect will be diluted.
Brolly's real view of Tyrone from yesteryear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJGqGBHACPc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJGqGBHACPc)
He's just tweeted
I hadn't realised giving Dessie Mone a clip was an offence
I remember him saying at half time "Dessie deserved it"
"Tyrone Bar Stewards", its the thick Derry brogue that has people confused.
Quote from: ONeill on August 11, 2013, 12:13:21 AM
What surprised me about Joe this week was his need to tell people how much others support him. I'm always wary of people who retweet their own praise.
From a man who laughs at his own jokes under different usernames!!!
Quote from: Fuzzman on August 14, 2013, 10:26:42 AM
Brolly's real view of Tyrone from yesteryear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJGqGBHACPc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJGqGBHACPc)
He's just tweeted
I hadn't realised giving Dessie Mone a clip was an offence
I know his brother doesn't work at the academy any more but I'm sure he's delighted that Joe expressed his opinions on the people he taught and worked with on camera for him. This could be his big Ron moment. (Minus the racism obviously)
RTE have just blocked the video on youtube
Not before a lot of people viewed it. It is all over facebook/twitter etc. I think it is great that he and RTE have been exposed. Brilliant..
Quote from: EC Unique on August 14, 2013, 01:43:14 PM
Not before a lot of people viewed it. It is all over facebook/twitter etc. I think it is great that he and RTE have been exposed. Brilliant..
What he say?
Quote from: Bingo on August 14, 2013, 01:57:17 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 14, 2013, 01:43:14 PM
Not before a lot of people viewed it. It is all over facebook/twitter etc. I think it is great that he and RTE have been exposed. Brilliant..
What he say?
''Tyrone Bastards'' ''Savages'' ''will never win anything'' generally made little of them and says his brother works in a Tyrone school and he says they are all savages....
Not great stuff for him to be coming out with in his position.
agreed..was well off the mark with the 'you'll never win anything' comment ;)
I'd say Joe won't be too pleased about that leaking out and you have to say its kinda sneeky or RTE to be recording him without their knowledge and then not to delete it afterwards.
Did someone from RTE dig it up after last week and release it I wonder?
Could we see a big fall out between the two parties or will Joe still maintain his "I don't care what anyone thinks of me" attitude.
Quote from: Fuzzman on August 13, 2013, 05:00:53 PM
I've watched the rant several times and read sections of this thread but not all of it.
Here is my points of view
Brolly seemed calm and balanced before the game & at half time. He even joked about the incident where he dragged down Hughes and got him sent off and said we've all done that, laughing to the other two pundits.
The Cavanagh incident didn't happen right at the end of the game and actually Peter Harte did a similar pull down back in Monaghan's own half much closer to the end but Brolly never mentioned that.
Brolly should have calmed down by the time the game was over but it seems he was more put out that he had been given the man of the match award that really pushed him over the edge according to his article in the Gaelic Life. (http://"http://gaeliclife.com/2013/08/joe-brolly-his-first-column-since-that-incident/")
There is no doubt Brolly has a point and most of us would rather not watch these cheating incidents and whilst most other teams do do it, Tyrone have been on live tv for 3 weekends on the trot and each time it seemed to be an actual tactic rather than a rash spur of the moment decision. Both big Sean and Petey seem to use it quite a bit which looks bad in my eyes. No doubt both have suffered enough at being pulled down themselves but this doesn't make it any better.
There is no doubt Brolly loves the limelight and he has really upped the ante now with this rant causing him to make national news and beyond. The bit that really grinds my gears is that his lack of respect for others around him. I am no fan of Spillane but week in week out he sits next to those other lads and shouts them down, uses his hands to push and cajole them, talk over them when they make their points and uses the "HOWL ON" comment to stop them interrupting them. I can only imagine his wife and family don't watch him on live as they must be mortified.
His own self importance now will be greatly boosted as many will take the attitude that he made a good point on live tv with a lot of passion and that with the new black card rules coming in next year he will no doubt be taking a lot of credit for highlighting the "professional foul" problem that has really raised it's head over the last few years. You would imagine now there will be motions in place to somehow award a penalty or something for such incidents that stops a one on one goal chance.
To be fair, they're usually talking shite.
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 14, 2013, 01:37:26 PM
Quote from: Fuzzman on August 14, 2013, 10:26:42 AM
Brolly's real view of Tyrone from yesteryear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJGqGBHACPc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJGqGBHACPc)
He's just tweeted
I hadn't realised giving Dessie Mone a clip was an offence
I know his brother doesn't work at the academy any more but I'm sure he's delighted that Joe expressed his opinions on the people he taught and worked with on camera for him. This could be his big Ron moment. (Minus the racism obviously)
also starting to remind me of the dickie keys/andy gray leaked video clips!
he also belittled a tyrone defender. think he said this player had never won a championship game or something like that and that it was desperation stuff for tyrone to be playing him.
out of interest, the teams that day were:
DERRY: M Conlan; G Doherty, N McCusker, P McFlynn; C McNally, F Crossan, G Coleman; A Tohill (capt.) (0-7. three 45s, four frees), F Doherty (0-1); C Gilligan, D Dougan, J McBride; P Bradley (1-2), E Muldoon, G Diamond. Substitutes: K Doherty for G Doherty (29); G McGonagle (0-1) for Diamond (h-t); D Heaney (0-1) for Dougan (40); J Donaghy for Gilligan (70).
TYRONE: J Devine; C Gormley, C Lawn, B Robinson; R McMenamin, C McGinley, P Jordan; J Quinn, C Holmes (1-0); B Dooher (0-2), C McAnallen (0-1), G Cavlan (0-1); B McGuigan, S O'Neill (0-6, four frees), Peter Canavan (capt.) (0-7, three frees). Substitutes: P Ward for Devine (35); K Hughes for Quinn (h-t); S Cavanagh for Cavlan (50); O Mulligan for McGuigan (58); Pascal Canavan for Hughes (70).
Someone in RTE should be disciplined over this leak.
Quote from: give her dixie on August 14, 2013, 02:28:42 PM
Someone in RTE should be disciplined over this leak.
They should get a 4 week ban and made to miss the next match ( subject to appeal of course ).
Quote from: Cold tea on August 14, 2013, 01:31:05 PM
Quote from: ONeill on August 11, 2013, 12:13:21 AM
What surprised me about Joe this week was his need to tell people how much others support him. I'm always wary of people who retweet their own praise.
From a man who laughs at his own jokes under different usernames!!!
Oh yes, sorry, forgot about that.
Quote from: EC Unique on August 14, 2013, 02:01:04 PM
Quote from: Bingo on August 14, 2013, 01:57:17 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 14, 2013, 01:43:14 PM
Not before a lot of people viewed it. It is all over facebook/twitter etc. I think it is great that he and RTE have been exposed. Brilliant..
What he say?
''Tyrone b**tards'' ''Savages'' ''will never win anything'' generally made little of them and says his brother works in a Tyrone school and he says they are all savages....
Not great stuff for him to be coming out with in his position.
I thought it was funny at first but having thought about it this is really sinister. It's akin to you having a private conversation with someone only to find that it was recorded on someone's phone and splashed over the internet. This video should not have been leaked.
Also EC if you listen carefully Brolly says "of course they're not savages they're just normal good GAA people who've been starved of success".
Clearly he was having a laugh and a joke throughout and his comment about Tyrone never winning anything as a long held view at the time. By Tyrone supporters even!! I remember the night Mickey Harte was appointed we played a 'friendly' at a Senior club in Tyrone where they were disappointed Harte got the job as "he can manage young boys alright but doesn't have it at this level"
Someone's opinion of 11 years ago shouldn't matter!!!
Quote from: screenexile on August 14, 2013, 02:50:35 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 14, 2013, 02:01:04 PM
Quote from: Bingo on August 14, 2013, 01:57:17 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 14, 2013, 01:43:14 PM
Not before a lot of people viewed it. It is all over facebook/twitter etc. I think it is great that he and RTE have been exposed. Brilliant..
What he say?
''Tyrone b**tards'' ''Savages'' ''will never win anything'' generally made little of them and says his brother works in a Tyrone school and he says they are all savages....
Not great stuff for him to be coming out with in his position.
I thought it was funny at first but having thought about it this is really sinister. It's akin to you having a private conversation with someone only to find that it was recorded on someone's phone and splashed over the internet. This video should not have been leaked.
Also EC if you listen carefully Brolly says "of course they're not savages they're just normal good GAA people who've been starved of success".
Clearly he was having a laugh and a joke throughout and his comment about Tyrone never winning anything as a long held view at the time. By Tyrone supporters even!! I remember the night Mickey Harte was appointed we played a 'friendly' at a Senior club in Tyrone where they were disappointed Harte got the job as "he can manage young boys alright but doesn't have it at this level"
Someone's opinion of 11 years ago shouldn't matter!!!
After his out burst a couple of weeks ago in front of millions he has left himself open to this sort of stuff. If your going to throw personal insults about publicly then you have to be prepared to be targeted. I expect him to be phased out from RTE now.
You would imagine so EC but it's creates great interest and makes for great TV.
You will get a lot of people tuning in to see what Brolly has to say in the Mayo game now.
I wonder will big Sean & Co be happy to drag players down as quick the next day. If needs be I say they will.
Remind me who was the J Quinn played that day? Was that 2001?
Quote from: EC Unique on August 14, 2013, 02:57:41 PM
Quote from: screenexile on August 14, 2013, 02:50:35 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 14, 2013, 02:01:04 PM
Quote from: Bingo on August 14, 2013, 01:57:17 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 14, 2013, 01:43:14 PM
Not before a lot of people viewed it. It is all over facebook/twitter etc. I think it is great that he and RTE have been exposed. Brilliant..
What he say?
''Tyrone b**tards'' ''Savages'' ''will never win anything'' generally made little of them and says his brother works in a Tyrone school and he says they are all savages....
Not great stuff for him to be coming out with in his position.
I thought it was funny at first but having thought about it this is really sinister. It's akin to you having a private conversation with someone only to find that it was recorded on someone's phone and splashed over the internet. This video should not have been leaked.
Also EC if you listen carefully Brolly says "of course they're not savages they're just normal good GAA people who've been starved of success".
Clearly he was having a laugh and a joke throughout and his comment about Tyrone never winning anything as a long held view at the time. By Tyrone supporters even!! I remember the night Mickey Harte was appointed we played a 'friendly' at a Senior club in Tyrone where they were disappointed Harte got the job as "he can manage young boys alright but doesn't have it at this level"
Someone's opinion of 11 years ago shouldn't matter!!!
After his out burst a couple of weeks ago in front of millions he has left himself open to this sort of stuff. If your going to throw personal insults about publicly then you have to be prepared to be targeted. I expect him to be phased out from RTE now.
Can't see it!
J Quinn was of course Jerome
Quote from: give her dixie on August 14, 2013, 02:28:42 PM
Someone in RTE should be disciplined over this leak.
Start with all those from Tyrone and narrow it down from there.
Quote from: Fuzzman on August 14, 2013, 03:04:36 PM
You would imagine so EC but it's creates great interest and makes for great TV.
You will get a lot of people tuning in to see what Brolly has to say in the Mayo game now.
I wonder will big Sean & Co be happy to drag players down as quick the next day. If needs be I say they will.
Remind me who was the J Quinn played that day? Was that 2001?
jarlath quinn (pomeroy). the game was played in july 2002.
I was in Australia so never saw the guy. Was he any good? Was he only on the panel that one year?
Quote from: Fuzzman on August 14, 2013, 04:31:15 PM
I was in Australia so never saw the guy. Was he any good? Was he only on the panel that one year?
As far as i remember he was midfield on St Pats Academy's MacRory and Hogan cup winning team in 1997 and was (still is) a big lump of a lad who could catch a ball. He wasn't blessed with the greatest kicking technique which would have impacted on his effectiveness at the highest level. Think he was only on the panel for a year.
He partnered Conall Martin in midfield for the Tyrone minors and U-21s as well I think
Quote from: Fuzzman on August 14, 2013, 03:04:36 PM
You would imagine so EC but it's creates great interest and makes for great TV.
You will get a lot of people tuning in to see what Brolly has to say in the Mayo game now.
I wonder will big Sean & Co be happy to drag players down as quick the next day. If needs be I say they will.
The sideshow has become more important than the main event. Joe will be delighted.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 14, 2013, 09:41:39 PM
Quote from: Fuzzman on August 14, 2013, 03:04:36 PM
You would imagine so EC but it's creates great interest and makes for great TV.
You will get a lot of people tuning in to see what Brolly has to say in the Mayo game now.
I wonder will big Sean & Co be happy to drag players down as quick the next day. If needs be I say they will.
The sideshow has become more important than the main event. Joe will be delighted.
This is the problem. Am I in the minority in wanting decent analysis and replays of scores etc instead of 15 minutes of complete nonsense from 3 men who are full of self importance.
No EC you're not, nothing wrong with people having strong opinions but focus needs to be on the game rather than egos.
Little attention paid to some of the great scores in Tyrone/Mon game from McMahon,McManus etc, instead it is the Joe show. RTE don't care as ratings will be up.
Soccer has a better balance where Giles/Dunphy can give their views but game is still analysed properly.
http://gaabanter.ie/tyrone-bastards-shocking-joe-brolly-clip-from-the-archives/ (http://gaabanter.ie/tyrone-bastards-shocking-joe-brolly-clip-from-the-archives/)
Quote from: trileacman on August 14, 2013, 11:30:21 PM
http://gaabanter.ie/tyrone-b**tards-shocking-joe-brolly-clip-from-the-archives/ (http://gaabanter.ie/tyrone-b**tards-shocking-joe-brolly-clip-from-the-archives/)
Not working. >:(
It's working. You have to take the two *s out and replace them with 'as'
Jaysus Enda Muldoon's goal at the start of that video is pure class!!
Quote from: screenexile on August 14, 2013, 11:41:21 PM
Jaysus Enda Muldoon's goal at the start of that video is pure class!!
Savage player, ye'd know he was from Tyrone.
What gets me is the outrage from Tyronies about the tape... first of all he says "Tyrone b**tards" and then proceeds to tell Lyster that the line was his opening at a Gala night IN TYRONE - clearly saying the statement as a joke!
Then he goes on to say that his brother calls Tyrone people savages and then says that's nonsense they are just normal gaels but there's a desperation that has come from not winning.
I think it's a mountain out of a molehill in fairness!
Tyrone's new fangled cynical fouling would have laughed at in Cavan in the 90s. A great bit of refereeing on 2.17mins
http://gaabanter.ie/from-the-vault-cynical-fouling-done-the-right-way/
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 14, 2013, 11:55:04 PM
Tyrone's new fangled cynical fouling would have laughed at in Cavan in the 90s. A great bit of refereeing on 2.17mins
http://gaabanter.ie/from-the-vault-cynical-fouling-done-the-right-way/
One lad doesn't know how to tackle in that clip (No. 11) and pulls a man down twice. Other than that I don't see the big hoo ha with that compared to Tyrone's systematic pre-meditated system of fouling!
Quote from: screenexile on August 15, 2013, 12:14:22 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 14, 2013, 11:55:04 PM
Tyrone's new fangled cynical fouling would have laughed at in Cavan in the 90s. A great bit of refereeing on 2.17mins
http://gaabanter.ie/from-the-vault-cynical-fouling-done-the-right-way/
One lad doesn't know how to tackle in that clip (No. 11) and pulls a man down twice. Other than that I don't see the big hoo ha with that compared to Tyrone's systematic pre-meditated system of fouling!
;D It's funny to watch the poor inbreds squirm again now that Tyrone's made it to the last four. Councilling is your only hope at this stage. Let go of the hate, embrace your superiors.
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 15, 2013, 09:08:00 AM
Quote from: screenexile on August 15, 2013, 12:14:22 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 14, 2013, 11:55:04 PM
Tyrone's new fangled cynical fouling would have laughed at in Cavan in the 90s. A great bit of refereeing on 2.17mins
http://gaabanter.ie/from-the-vault-cynical-fouling-done-the-right-way/
One lad doesn't know how to tackle in that clip (No. 11) and pulls a man down twice. Other than that I don't see the big hoo ha with that compared to Tyrone's systematic pre-meditated system of fouling!
;D It's funny to watch the poor inbreds squirm again now that Tyrone's made it to the last four. Councilling is your only hope at this stage. Let go of the hate, embrace your superiors.
It is amusing just HOW bad Derry football has got. They are on a power with Antrim now as in if we drew them in Ulster we just look to see who we get in the next round. The great thing is that there are no signs of that changing any time soon. :)
Quote from: EC Unique on August 15, 2013, 09:32:08 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 15, 2013, 09:08:00 AM
Quote from: screenexile on August 15, 2013, 12:14:22 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 14, 2013, 11:55:04 PM
Tyrone's new fangled cynical fouling would have laughed at in Cavan in the 90s. A great bit of refereeing on 2.17mins
http://gaabanter.ie/from-the-vault-cynical-fouling-done-the-right-way/
One lad doesn't know how to tackle in that clip (No. 11) and pulls a man down twice. Other than that I don't see the big hoo ha with that compared to Tyrone's systematic pre-meditated system of fouling!
;D It's funny to watch the poor inbreds squirm again now that Tyrone's made it to the last four. Councilling is your only hope at this stage. Let go of the hate, embrace your superiors.
It is amusing just HOW bad Derry football has got. They are on a power with Antrim now as in if we drew them in Ulster we just look to see who we get in the next round. The great thing is that there are no signs of that changing any time soon. :)
Is Sarsfields a Derry man?? Dont you worry with our Tyrone management team in place things will change very soon ;)
Quote from: Walter Cronc on August 15, 2013, 09:39:10 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 15, 2013, 09:32:08 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 15, 2013, 09:08:00 AM
Quote from: screenexile on August 15, 2013, 12:14:22 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 14, 2013, 11:55:04 PM
Tyrone's new fangled cynical fouling would have laughed at in Cavan in the 90s. A great bit of refereeing on 2.17mins
http://gaabanter.ie/from-the-vault-cynical-fouling-done-the-right-way/
One lad doesn't know how to tackle in that clip (No. 11) and pulls a man down twice. Other than that I don't see the big hoo ha with that compared to Tyrone's systematic pre-meditated system of fouling!
;D It's funny to watch the poor inbreds squirm again now that Tyrone's made it to the last four. Councilling is your only hope at this stage. Let go of the hate, embrace your superiors.
It is amusing just HOW bad Derry football has got. They are on a power with Antrim now as in if we drew them in Ulster we just look to see who we get in the next round. The great thing is that there are no signs of that changing any time soon. :)
Is Sarsfields a Derry man?? Dont you worry with our Tyrone management team in place things will change very soon ;)
>:( I've been called a lot in my time, but that was just mean!!
http://www.liveleak.com (http://www.liveleak.com)
Enter Joe Brolly in the search.
Enjoy!
Quote from: muppet on August 15, 2013, 09:54:54 AM
http://www.liveleak.com (http://www.liveleak.com)
Enter Joe Brolly in the search.
Enjoy!
Definitely had been on the piss.
That's a sneaky one, whoever leaked that. Not on.
I'd rather have it that Derry wans detested us and vice versa. It's all good fun. Inbred fcukers.
The Joe Brolly PR campaign fuelled by Co. Tyrone
Meanwhile in Egypt, 327 people have died.........
Jamie Lee Brolly:
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BRkheQgCcAA17wq.png)
O`Neill son, we wouldnt piss on you, if you were on fire, u sc**bag!!!
Quote from: optimus cheese on August 15, 2013, 10:29:24 AM
Meanwhile in Egypt, 327 people have died.........
why would people in a joe brolly thread in the football section of a GAA discussion boards be discussing such a tragedy?
if this is where you come for you news please hand back your voter registration Card
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 15, 2013, 01:54:48 PM
O`Neill son, we wouldnt piss on you, if you were on fire, u sc**bag!!!
Harsh?!
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 15, 2013, 01:54:48 PM
O`Neill son, we wouldnt piss on you, if you were on fire, u sc**bag!!!
That's more like it. I'd burn the balls off you anyway.
Hmmm...
Quote from: seafoid on December 21, 2012, 09:48:00 AM
I predict that Joe Brolly will wind certain people up something shocking during the months from May through to September
Pat Spillane will attempt to be funny
Colm O Rourke will be the voice of reason.
Brian Carthy will ask someone of the calibre of Lionel Messi to attest that Gaelic football is the best team sport in the world
Something light hearted for this time of night....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=W5ALAMsFcJI
Joe at his nonsense analysis again - pick the highest profile player he can, slag him off and get some attention for himself.
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=199193
best article I can find - and that includes the wisdom from here - can be found on http://spailpin.blogspot.co.uk just about gets the whole episode and Brolly spot on
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 22, 2013, 08:25:16 AM
Joe at his nonsense analysis again - pick the highest profile player he can, slag him off and get some attention for himself.
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=199193
I want nuthin to do with that...
Joe's 2003 tribute - http://balls.ie/gaa/joe-brollys-tribute-video-for-tyrones-kevin-hughes/
(http://ballsdot.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/joepat.png)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhSZk78mcjI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhSZk78mcjI)
Apologies if this was posted before. I just saw it now.
Joe Brolly's Sunday Game Rant Uncensored by Oliver Callan
http://balls.ie/gaa/joe-brolly-america/ (http://balls.ie/gaa/joe-brolly-america/)
Well well well, it seems the Sunday Game panel are trying to outdo each other with tales of past adventures with members of the opposite sex.
I think it's no exaggeration to say the nation was collectively flabbergasted when Pat Spillane regaled us on All Ireland final day with a story about him getting the shift in Adelaide in the 1980s but now Joe Brolly has gone and stolen his shift thunder.
Nestled within his Derry Journal column this week is a story about a night of shenanigans he had in America over 20 years ago:
'After the first training session with the team in Van Courtland Park, we went to the bar overlooking the park and got very drunk.
"Duck, young Brolly," said one of the older lads, just as a volley of empty shot glasses smashed against the wall of the pub. I had barely straightened up when they drilled another row of shots and another half dozen egg cups shattered against the wall. At this point, I got into a safer position behind a pillar. Thing was, nobody asked them to stop. It was like Vikings drinking after they had sacked the nunnery and cut off the locals' heads.
As the night wore on I fell in with a girl and after a short time we were earnestly telling each other how much we loved one another. In the small hours, we ventured outside, she produced keys to an ancient $300 sedan and full as a monkey, she drove home. When she reached her building, she turned right a bit too hard and drove straight into the wall of the apartment block. It was like the opening credits in "Police Squad" where the squad car drives straight into the dustbins. She didn't even reverse. Just left the car with its nose crushed against the wall. Next morning when we emerged, she saw the damage and said, "What were you thinking of driving home? Look what you've done to my car."'
Joe was rumoured to have responded to her by saying 'I want absolutely nothing to do with that. That's an absolute disgrace. You can say whatever about you being a great shift but you can forget about it as far as you're a good driver.'
The best bit is, it's not even funniest anecdote in Brolly's article. He goes on to tell another story about two Derrymen who also found themselves in an inebriated state one night in America. They stumbled upon a police car that had been left copless, with the policemen presumably gone in pursuit of someone on foot.
Brolly eleborates, 'The two lads did what any young farmer abroad in a strange country would do. They climbed into the squad car, took hold of the mic and enquired after the price of ewes at the Dungiven sheep sales.'
After getting warned by the voice on the other line that they were committing a federal offence, the boys responded 'Jesus woman, we only want to know the price of ewes, we're not f****ing drug dealers.'
Reflecting upon Joe's article I have decided that a) I'm moving to America and b) there should be some sort of weekly television show with the Sunday Game lads where they do nothing but relive past excursions. Excellent stuff.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-24584058
Quote from: wherefromreferee? on October 18, 2013, 02:25:30 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-24584058
Fair play joe.
Quote from: wherefromreferee? on October 18, 2013, 02:25:30 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-24584058
Cue how many pages?!
Good man Joe
I don't know what he means by no one elses business. Outside the club itself or the GAA? Unfortunately it's something that will always be used against the GAA and people do have a right to criticise if they wish.
I personally understand why Kevin Lynch's are named so but I also see where the unionists are coming from but I don't see why it should be used to label the whole GAA as IRA supporters.
I'm not really drawing a line between the two but if there was a club named 'Mullingar Hitlers' I think he'd consider it everyones business.
Surprised he said that to be honest.
or the Longford Slashers.
Quote from: Jinxy on October 18, 2013, 03:35:56 PM
I'm not really drawing a line between the two but if there was a club named 'Mullingar Hitlers' I think he'd consider it everyones business.
Surprised he said that to be honest.
You're suprised he said something that gives him time in the media spotlight? Really?
I think I've asked this before but apart from Kevin Lynch's in Dungiven are there any other clubs named after IRA/INLA personnel who died say from 1968-1998??
In terms of grounds I know we have Louis Leonard Memorial Park in Donagh, Co Fermanagh and St Teresa's in Belfast play at McDonnell Doherty Park and I suppose there may be a few others??
Is this such a huge issue or is it a stick used to beat the GAA by people who have no interest in the GAA other than finding an excuse not to engage with it??
Quote from: AQMP on October 18, 2013, 04:07:47 PM
I think I've asked this before but apart from Kevin Lynch's in Dungiven are there any other clubs named after IRA/INLA personnel who died say from 1968-1998??
In terms of grounds I know we have Louis Leonard Memorial Park in Donagh, Co Fermanagh and St Teresa's in Belfast play at McDonnell Doherty Park and I suppose there may be a few others??
Is this such a huge issue or is it a stick used to beat the GAA by people who have no interest in the GAA other than finding an excuse not to engage with it??
i think that would be accurate
I think it's appropriate to mention that it is in relation to a comment made by Jim Allister.
'Mullingar Hitler's': what a nuanced contribution to the debate. I think with Kevin Lynch's in particular, the fact that he was a member of the club and a talented hurler might have had something to do with it.
That said out of thousands of GAA clubs, the 'controversially named' ones wouldn't even breach single figures.
As Michael Collins' chief intelligence officer in London, it's time to remove this blight on the good name of the GAA that is Sam Maguire.
This whole conversation is ridiculous and is brought about by GAA people thinking they are, or should be, politicians.
Run the games and stay out of it.
Quote from: Jinxy on October 18, 2013, 03:35:56 PM
I'm not really drawing a line between the two but if there was a club named 'Mullingar Hitlers' I think he'd consider it everyones business.
Surprised he said that to be honest.
Kevin Lynch & Hitler are parallels now?
Well, yeah.
If you want to ignore the first half of the sentence.
Quote from: Jinxy on October 18, 2013, 04:57:42 PM
Well, yeah.
If you want to ignore the first half of the sentence.
No point saying you're not making a parallel before
immediately making a parallel.
Quote from: AQMP on October 18, 2013, 04:07:47 PM
I think I've asked this before but apart from Kevin Lynch's in Dungiven are there any other clubs named after IRA/INLA personnel who died say from 1968-1998??
In terms of grounds I know we have Louis Leonard Memorial Park in Donagh, Co Fermanagh and St Teresa's in Belfast play at McDonnell Doherty Park and I suppose there may be a few others??
Is this such a huge issue or is it a stick used to beat the GAA by people who have no interest in the GAA other than finding an excuse not to engage with it??
On the one hand there are members of the Gaa who aren't fans of IRA/INLA personnel, while on the other it feels that some Unionists are looking for something to complain about, that otherwise they show no interest in, so that their unreasonable theatrics with demonstrations and flegs etc doesn't look too bad.
Quote from: Nally Stand on October 18, 2013, 05:09:42 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on October 18, 2013, 04:57:42 PM
Well, yeah.
If you want to ignore the first half of the sentence.
No point saying you're not making a parallel before immediately making a parallel.
In principle, either you can name a club after whoever you want or you can't.
If there is a line, where do you draw it?
Quote from: Jinxy on October 18, 2013, 07:39:35 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on October 18, 2013, 05:09:42 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on October 18, 2013, 04:57:42 PM
Well, yeah.
If you want to ignore the first half of the sentence.
No point saying you're not making a parallel before immediately making a parallel.
In principle, either you can name a club after whoever you want or you can't.
If there is a line, where do you draw it?
I would suggest in this case naming a GAA Club after a member of your own club isn't where the line can be drawn.
It's a ridiculous thing to say about Hitler and makes no sense in the context of this debate.
Good man Joe,we should always remember our dead,and if they happen to be associated with a club then it's up to the members if they want to name club,pitch or a tournament after them.
What if Hitler was from Mullingar?
Quote from: Jinxy on October 18, 2013, 08:23:04 PM
What if Hitler was from Mullingar?
[/quot
If there was a man called Hitler who came from Mullingar,had played with distinction for his local GAA club,took up arms (rightly or wrongly) against an army that was occupying his country,was captured put in a prison where he was brutalised,fought against that regime by dying on Hunger strike,they should put a statue up to him in Hitler Park.
Quote from: Jinxy on October 18, 2013, 08:23:04 PM
What if Hitler was from Mullingar?
I wouldn't be at all surprised.
If Hitler was from Mullingar he might have become a priest after all.
I think if anyone had a more nuanced view of Irish history they might perhaps be a bit more offended by, say, John Mitchel - a nasty, nasty, racist - being the name of a GAA club. But of course, offence is only caused to people when they're told to be offended.
Quote from: stibhan on October 18, 2013, 08:41:41 PM
If Hitler was from Mullingar he might have become a priest after all.
I think if anyone had a more nuanced view of Irish history they might perhaps be a bit more offended by, say, John Mitchel - a nasty, nasty, racist - being the name of a GAA club. But of course, offence is only caused to people when they're told to be offended.
Or when their ignorance is reduced.
Quote from: Hardy on October 18, 2013, 08:34:53 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on October 18, 2013, 08:23:04 PM
What if Hitler was from Mullingar?
I wouldn't be at all surprised.
There used be great battles between Mullingar Hitlers and Tyrellspass Stalins.
"C'mon the Joes!", the Tyrellspass crowd would roar.
Quote from: Jinxy on October 18, 2013, 08:49:39 PM
Quote from: Hardy on October 18, 2013, 08:34:53 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on October 18, 2013, 08:23:04 PM
What if Hitler was from Mullingar?
I wouldn't be at all surprised.
There used be great battles between Mullingar Hitlers and Tyrellspass Stalins.
"C'mon the Joes!", the Tyrellspass crowd would roar.
Would have been some craic to see the Mullingar Hitlers play the Shankill Butchers.
Quote from: Jinxy on October 18, 2013, 08:49:39 PM
Quote from: Hardy on October 18, 2013, 08:34:53 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on October 18, 2013, 08:23:04 PM
What if Hitler was from Mullingar?
I wouldn't be at all surprised.
There used be great battles between Mullingar Hitlers and Tyrellspass Stalins.
"C'mon the Joes!", the Tyrellspass crowd would roar.
The winners play Navan O'Mussolini's in the first round of the Leinster Championship.
Quote from: muppet on October 18, 2013, 08:48:45 PM
Quote from: stibhan on October 18, 2013, 08:41:41 PM
If Hitler was from Mullingar he might have become a priest after all.
I think if anyone had a more nuanced view of Irish history they might perhaps be a bit more offended by, say, John Mitchel - a nasty, nasty, racist - being the name of a GAA club. But of course, offence is only caused to people when they're told to be offended.
Or when their ignorance is reduced.
Who defines ignorance here? Are all of the 9 clubs who are named after John Mitchel, who predated the GAA, negligent for not changing the name of their club?
What about the Water Polo club named after Cathal Brugha in West Belfast? Is Water Polo a sectarian sport or again, are we only offended when we are told to be? Is it only okay to name a club after an Irish Republican if a) he killed people more than 50 years ago and b) it isn't a GAA club?
I would have thought the Drogheda Cromwells would be big favourites for Sam
Quote from: stibhan on October 18, 2013, 08:59:34 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 18, 2013, 08:48:45 PM
Quote from: stibhan on October 18, 2013, 08:41:41 PM
If Hitler was from Mullingar he might have become a priest after all.
I think if anyone had a more nuanced view of Irish history they might perhaps be a bit more offended by, say, John Mitchel - a nasty, nasty, racist - being the name of a GAA club. But of course, offence is only caused to people when they're told to be offended.
Or when their ignorance is reduced.
Who defines ignorance here? Are all of the 9 clubs who are named after John Mitchel, who predated the GAA, negligent for not changing the name of their club?
What about the Water Polo club named after Cathal Brugha in West Belfast? Is Water Polo a sectarian sport or again, are we only offended when we are told to be? Is it only okay to name a club after an Irish Republican if a) he killed people more than 50 years ago and b) it isn't a GAA club?
I dare say the vast majority of members of those clubs know little of John Mitchel. Would you define that as ignorance in this case?
Quote from: muppet on October 18, 2013, 09:10:39 PM
Quote from: stibhan on October 18, 2013, 08:59:34 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 18, 2013, 08:48:45 PM
Quote from: stibhan on October 18, 2013, 08:41:41 PM
If Hitler was from Mullingar he might have become a priest after all.
I think if anyone had a more nuanced view of Irish history they might perhaps be a bit more offended by, say, John Mitchel - a nasty, nasty, racist - being the name of a GAA club. But of course, offence is only caused to people when they're told to be offended.
Or when their ignorance is reduced.
Who defines ignorance here? Are all of the 9 clubs who are named after John Mitchel, who predated the GAA, negligent for not changing the name of their club?
What about the Water Polo club named after Cathal Brugha in West Belfast? Is Water Polo a sectarian sport or again, are we only offended when we are told to be? Is it only okay to name a club after an Irish Republican if a) he killed people more than 50 years ago and b) it isn't a GAA club?
I dare say the vast majority of members of those clubs know little of John Mitchel. Would you define that as ignorance in this case?
'Ignorance' in the loosest sense, yes. Not as a character defect but as a lack of knowledge, probably brought on by the fact that they don't care.
It's important to recognise that in the case of Allister, Gregory Campbell, and Sammy Wilson being the torch-carriers who shine light on the GAA to their communities, they always do so selectively. They illuminate places that represent us in the worst light rather than show the complex social, cultural and political make up of the GAA.
Quote from: stibhan on October 18, 2013, 09:32:56 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 18, 2013, 09:10:39 PM
Quote from: stibhan on October 18, 2013, 08:59:34 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 18, 2013, 08:48:45 PM
Quote from: stibhan on October 18, 2013, 08:41:41 PM
If Hitler was from Mullingar he might have become a priest after all.
I think if anyone had a more nuanced view of Irish history they might perhaps be a bit more offended by, say, John Mitchel - a nasty, nasty, racist - being the name of a GAA club. But of course, offence is only caused to people when they're told to be offended.
Or when their ignorance is reduced.
Who defines ignorance here? Are all of the 9 clubs who are named after John Mitchel, who predated the GAA, negligent for not changing the name of their club?
What about the Water Polo club named after Cathal Brugha in West Belfast? Is Water Polo a sectarian sport or again, are we only offended when we are told to be? Is it only okay to name a club after an Irish Republican if a) he killed people more than 50 years ago and b) it isn't a GAA club?
I dare say the vast majority of members of those clubs know little of John Mitchel. Would you define that as ignorance in this case?
'Ignorance' in the loosest sense, yes. Not as a character defect but as a lack of knowledge, probably brought on by the fact that they don't care.
It's important to recognise that in the case of Allister, Gregory Campbell, and Sammy Wilson being the torch-carriers who shine light on the GAA to their communities, they always do so selectively. They illuminate places that represent us in the worst light rather than show the complex social, cultural and political make up of the GAA.
I don't think anyone has any doubts about that.
But i was more thinking of myself. I played for one of those Mitchels and know nothing about him at the time. I would say few members do even now and many would be uncomfortable if they did. Although he should really be judged in the context of the time. I would suggest he supported slavery simply because Britain had abolished it.
Ah Muppet that last line of yours was wrong. John Mitchel was indeed a rascist amd nothing to do with Britains stance.
Incidentally there was a John Mitchel tournament recently in Claudy's John Mitchells where he was born for all the teams named after John Mitchell. Apparently Kilcoo were invited but declined.
No love for Sinn Fein but am, with Joe on this one, a club can name itself after whoever they want, it not us, the gaa or politician s to turn round and tell Kevin Lynchs in dungiven to change there name, this club was named 30yrs during the worst of the trouble and the hunger strikes,. Now everything all rosy in the water we expect the club to change their name which has won county championship under that name. Dont think so. theres a couple of place with the name cromwell about the north, can we demand they be changed? no dont think so cause that's silly to change a name that has been there yrs because we dont like it.
The orange order a supposed christian organization, has it in writing that a catholic cannot join, which is more sectarian, that or the gaa
one of the band`s at the protests in Belfast has the names of 4 uvf men (band members on their tops who were shot) i dont see unionists telling the news this is wrong.
before you bitch about the GAA and its rights and wrongs, get your own house in order then you can have the right to give criticism all you want
Quote from: theticklemister on October 18, 2013, 09:55:44 PM
Ah Muppet that last line of yours was wrong. John Mitchel was indeed a rascist amd nothing to do with Britains stance.
Incidentally there was a John Mitchel tournament recently in Claudy's John Mitchells where he was born for all the teams named after John Mitchell. Apparently Kilcoo were invited but declined.
I didn't say he wasn't a racist. Evidently he was.
Supporting slavery and racism are not necessarily the same thing. And it is just an opinion anyway. I have no evidence or sources to back it up.
I'm probably on my own here but I'd prefer if clubs were solely sporting organisations with no political or religious overtones in their names. St Patrick's or St Mary's or whatever - why not just Crossmaglen Rangers or The Men of the Hill (from?).
They were probably named by priests anyway.
Quote from: muppet on October 18, 2013, 09:50:17 PM
Quote from: stibhan on October 18, 2013, 09:32:56 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 18, 2013, 09:10:39 PM
Quote from: stibhan on October 18, 2013, 08:59:34 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 18, 2013, 08:48:45 PM
Quote from: stibhan on October 18, 2013, 08:41:41 PM
If Hitler was from Mullingar he might have become a priest after all.
I think if anyone had a more nuanced view of Irish history they might perhaps be a bit more offended by, say, John Mitchel - a nasty, nasty, racist - being the name of a GAA club. But of course, offence is only caused to people when they're told to be offended.
Or when their ignorance is reduced.
Who defines ignorance here? Are all of the 9 clubs who are named after John Mitchel, who predated the GAA, negligent for not changing the name of their club?
What about the Water Polo club named after Cathal Brugha in West Belfast? Is Water Polo a sectarian sport or again, are we only offended when we are told to be? Is it only okay to name a club after an Irish Republican if a) he killed people more than 50 years ago and b) it isn't a GAA club?
I dare say the vast majority of members of those clubs know little of John Mitchel. Would you define that as ignorance in this case?
'Ignorance' in the loosest sense, yes. Not as a character defect but as a lack of knowledge, probably brought on by the fact that they don't care.
It's important to recognise that in the case of Allister, Gregory Campbell, and Sammy Wilson being the torch-carriers who shine light on the GAA to their communities, they always do so selectively. They illuminate places that represent us in the worst light rather than show the complex social, cultural and political make up of the GAA.
I don't think anyone has any doubts about that.
But i was more thinking of myself. I played for one of those Mitchels and know nothing about him at the time. I would say few members do even now and many would be uncomfortable if they did. Although he should really be judged in the context of the time. I would suggest he supported slavery simply because Britain had abolished it.
I'm not sure if that's true: he would have probably converted to Catholicism if that was the case. His politics were a lot more complex than just being a racist and I'm sure, as you say, he should be judged in the context of his time.
I don't think, anyway, that the name of a club is important. Most of the time, when people glorify or remember another individual, they elide certain aspects of their character: Irish history is full of people who have shadowy parts of their life, WB Yeats being a particularly prominent example (Sligo's people are hardly a quasi Fascist folk).
I don't think it's fair to either use the example of one club as a microcosm of the GAA or to bow to external pressures and force Kevin Lynch's club to change their name. However, should 40 or 50 years pass and Castlereagh Robinson's (presumably not named after Iris) win the Down/Antrim Championship I will be smiling wryly.
I should add, I was looking at that wonderful Irish election literature blog and I think there has been something much more insidious going on, which is manipulating someone's association with the... er... association to get electoral gain.
Shane McEntee (RIP) actually printed Meath's NFL and NHL fixtures on election literature:
http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/06/26/shane-mcentee-gaelic-football-man-through-and-through-fine-gael-2005-meath-by-election/
I don't want to be either pedantic or callous but I think that sort of thing should be discouraged in the strongest possible terms.
Quote from: ONeill on October 18, 2013, 10:06:46 PM
I'm probably on my own here but I'd prefer if clubs were solely sporting organisations with no political or religious overtones in their names. St Patrick's or St Mary's or whatever - why not just Crossmaglen Rangers or The Men of the Hill (from?).
They were probably named by priests anyway.
This is a good idea.
To avoid any insensitivity towards anyone we should use Lat & Long of club grounds.
Now back to the Mayo County Final or
53.8539° N, 9.2844° W versus
53.8457° N, 9.2368° W.
Now where is my old
53.8539° N, 9.2844° W jersey?
Mayo?
In Derry there is the Sean Larkin cup named after the said man who was killed by free state forces in Drumboe castle. He was from Ballinderry. This cup is a regional cup for south derry senior teams.
The intermediate cup is named after Sheridan, Bateson and Lee from the Ballymauigan /Newbridege area who when planting a bomb in magherafelt in 1971 prematurley blew.
Incidentally, ye will all have a laugh at this....... the Junior cship cup in Derry is named the Joe Brolly cup. Ye cant make this up. I dunno why it was named this
Derry would have been an area where outside of Belfast there was plenty of trouble back in the 80`s and before its no suprise cups are named after certain people. Is there no clubs, cups etc named around Armagh?
Why can't they name the cups after fellas who poured their lives into the GAA and the clubs/county?
Quote from: ONeill on October 18, 2013, 10:34:05 PM
Why can't they name the cups after fellas who poured their lives into the GAA and the clubs/county?
O'Neills Ardboe.
Forbes' Ardboe.
Quote from: ONeill on October 18, 2013, 10:21:53 PM
Mayo?
Thinking more about it, this could explain Tyrone's GPS trackers.
Joe certainly likes the publicity. All for him this time.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on October 18, 2013, 10:32:13 PM
Derry would have been an area where outside of Belfast there was plenty of trouble back in the 80`s and before its no suprise cups are named after certain people. Is there no clubs, cups etc named around Armagh?
In Armagh, Dromintee's grounds are named after two Republican volunteers (Campbell/Lochrie). Think there's a Mairead Farrell Cup but it may be Tyrone?
Other than that I don't think there is much else but I wouldn't be too sure. I wonder if someone could compile a list of all the 'contentious' named cups/grounds/clubs. Can't be too many, would be interesting to put a number on it. Off the top of my head I've got:
Antrim:
McDonnell/Doherty Park
Cahill Cup
Armagh:
Campbell/Lochrie Park
Cavan?
Derry:
Kevin Lynch's
Bateson, Sheridan and Lee
Donegal?
Down?
Fermanagh:
Louis Leonard Memorial Park
Monaghan?
Tyrone:
Galbally u12 ...?
Louth?
Rest of Ireland?
That u 12 cup is the Martin McCuaghey.
Sure them oul soccer boys are at it too, if the oul sectarian Oscar Traynor cup.
Quote from: ONeill on October 18, 2013, 10:34:05 PM
Why can't they name the cups after fellas who poured their lives into the GAA and the clubs/county?
Like Kevin Lynch?
Is there a cup called that?
The O Neill cup is named after a man who took the battle to the English and wooed the Queen of the day and then fled the nest.
Its as ridiculous as claiming the Barclays premier league is named after financial terrorists.
No sense whatsoever.
Quote from: rrhf on October 19, 2013, 11:14:50 AM
The O Neill cup is named after a man who took the battle to the English and wooed the Queen of the day and then fled the nest.
I thought it was named after Michelle MLA.
In england every village has a street named after a king or Queen who chopped heads off for a living or got their own chopped off. Its a fun thing over there.
Quote from: rrhf on October 19, 2013, 11:24:01 AM
Its as ridiculous as claiming the Barclays premier league is named after financial terrorists.
No sense whatsoever.
You do know that Barclays pay for their name to be there don't you?
That's an interesting idea. Paying for the name.
Red Bull Derrytresk at the Irn Bru rampart.
Quote from: ONeill on October 19, 2013, 12:19:05 PM
That's an interesting idea. Paying for the name.
Red Bull Derrytresk at the Irn Bru rampart.
It should be more poetic: Durex Derrytresk?
Quote from: muppet on October 19, 2013, 12:12:26 PM
Quote from: rrhf on October 19, 2013, 11:24:01 AM
Its as ridiculous as claiming the Barclays premier league is named after financial terrorists.
No sense whatsoever.
You do know that Barclays pay for their name to be there don't you?
Is the arguement that we should charge now?
Quote from: muppet on October 19, 2013, 12:21:46 PM
Quote from: ONeill on October 19, 2013, 12:19:05 PM
That's an interesting idea. Paying for the name.
Red Bull Derrytresk at the Irn Bru rampart.
It should be more poetic: Durex Derrytresk?
They'd pull out at the end of season dead rubber games.
Quote from: rrhf on October 19, 2013, 12:23:54 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 19, 2013, 12:12:26 PM
Quote from: rrhf on October 19, 2013, 11:24:01 AM
Its as ridiculous as claiming the Barclays premier league is named after financial terrorists.
No sense whatsoever.
You do know that Barclays pay for their name to be there don't you?
Is the arguement that we should charge now?
Yours might be, I didn't bring Barclays into it as a comparison.
Quote from: ONeill on October 19, 2013, 12:19:05 PM
That's an interesting idea. Paying for the name.
Red Bull Derrytresk at the Irn Bru rampart.
They're excitable enough as it is.
Quote from: hardstation on October 19, 2013, 11:17:26 AM
The senior hurling cup in Antrim is called the volunteer cup. It is named after the man who volunteered to go down the town and buy it.
;D
Quote from: ONeill on October 19, 2013, 12:19:05 PM
That's an interesting idea. Paying for the name.
Red Bull Derrytresk at the Irn Bru rampart.
Or Adobe Photoshop Park ;)
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 19, 2013, 02:07:46 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 19, 2013, 11:17:26 AM
The senior hurling cup in Antrim is called the volunteer cup. It is named after the man who volunteered to go down the town and buy it.
;D
;D ;D ;D
The fenians gaa club from Kilkenny would find alot of love over the border in the north lol
Quote from: AQMP on October 18, 2013, 04:07:47 PM
I think I've asked this before but apart from Kevin Lynch's in Dungiven are there any other clubs named after IRA/INLA personnel who died say from 1968-1998??
In terms of grounds I know we have Louis Leonard Memorial Park in Donagh, Co Fermanagh and St Teresa's in Belfast play at McDonnell Doherty Park and I suppose there may be a few others??
Is this such a huge issue or is it a stick used to beat the GAA by people who have no interest in the GAA other than finding an excuse not to engage with it??
It doesn't matter when they died 1922, 1880 or 2013.
Quote from: muppet on October 19, 2013, 05:28:08 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 19, 2013, 02:07:46 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 19, 2013, 11:17:26 AM
The senior hurling cup in Antrim is called the volunteer cup. It is named after the man who volunteered to go down the town and buy it.
;D
;D ;D ;D
He went all the way to Limerick to buy it..
Quote from: Antrim Coaster on October 19, 2013, 08:42:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 19, 2013, 05:28:08 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 19, 2013, 02:07:46 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 19, 2013, 11:17:26 AM
The senior hurling cup in Antrim is called the volunteer cup. It is named after the man who volunteered to go down the town and buy it.
;D
;D ;D ;D
He went all the way to Limerick to buy it..
that's a load of bollix; an Antrim man never bought anything in his life.
Quote from: theticklemister on October 19, 2013, 09:50:02 PM
Quote from: Antrim Coaster on October 19, 2013, 08:42:20 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 19, 2013, 05:28:08 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 19, 2013, 02:07:46 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 19, 2013, 11:17:26 AM
The senior hurling cup in Antrim is called the volunteer cup. It is named after the man who volunteered to go down the town and buy it.
;D
;D ;D ;D
He went all the way to Limerick to buy it..
that's a load of bollix; an Antrim man never bought anything in his life.
That's the N Antrim stereotype. A McCooey would have stolen it.
have to agree with joe on this
the gaa is an easy target for the unionist brigade, gaa is by far the biggest sport in the north and that's what annoys them,
if names are changed ,the next thing will be the national flag being attacked, then the national anthem before games,
Quote from: naka on October 20, 2013, 08:30:46 PM
have to agree with joe on this
the gaa is an easy target for the unionist brigade, gaa is by far the biggest sport in the north and that's what annoys them,
if names are changed ,the next thing will be the national flag being attacked, then the national anthem before games,
Don't see the point in having either at the games tbh.
Quote from: LeoMc on October 21, 2013, 05:10:32 PM
Quote from: naka on October 20, 2013, 08:30:46 PM
have to agree with joe on this
the gaa is an easy target for the unionist brigade, gaa is by far the biggest sport in the north and that's what annoys them,
if names are changed ,the next thing will be the national flag being attacked, then the national anthem before games,
Don't see the point in having either at the games tbh.
In the north since partition the match on sunday and the gaelic club is the one place we were able to express our nationality without reproach. It is something we should never give up.
Quote from: Applesisapples on October 22, 2013, 01:57:59 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 21, 2013, 05:10:32 PM
Quote from: naka on October 20, 2013, 08:30:46 PM
have to agree with joe on this
the gaa is an easy target for the unionist brigade, gaa is by far the biggest sport in the north and that's what annoys them,
if names are changed ,the next thing will be the national flag being attacked, then the national anthem before games,
Don't see the point in having either at the games tbh.
In the north since partition the match on sunday and the gaelic club is the one place we were able to express our nationality without reproach. It is something we should never give up.
In the North since Civil Rights the marching season and wearing our sash walking the Queen's Highway is the one place we are able to express our nationality without reproach... especially after themmuns took our flegs!
Quote from: screenexile on October 22, 2013, 03:11:02 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on October 22, 2013, 01:57:59 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 21, 2013, 05:10:32 PM
Quote from: naka on October 20, 2013, 08:30:46 PM
have to agree with joe on this
the gaa is an easy target for the unionist brigade, gaa is by far the biggest sport in the north and that's what annoys them,
if names are changed ,the next thing will be the national flag being attacked, then the national anthem before games,
Don't see the point in having either at the games tbh.
In the north since partition the match on sunday and the gaelic club is the one place we were able to express our nationality without reproach. It is something we should never give up.
In the North since Civil Rights the marching season and wearing our sash walking the Queen's Highway is the one place we are able to express our nationality without reproach... especially after themmuns took our flegs!
An nothing wrong with that, provided it's not done to annoy.
Quote from: Applesisapples on October 22, 2013, 01:57:59 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 21, 2013, 05:10:32 PM
Quote from: naka on October 20, 2013, 08:30:46 PM
have to agree with joe on this
the gaa is an easy target for the unionist brigade, gaa is by far the biggest sport in the north and that's what annoys them,
if names are changed ,the next thing will be the national flag being attacked, then the national anthem before games,
Don't see the point in having either at the games tbh.
In the north since partition the match on sunday and the gaelic club is the one place we were able to express our nationality without reproach. It is something we should never give up.
Now that we have moved on and are secure in our Irishness I don't see the point in it. It was a very important symbol of Irishness when there was no other way of expressing it but IMO Scratched CD's or Maria Carey wannabes belting it out over a 1970;'s sound system, as well as ever present roaring over the top of the final few lines takes away from it.
I would not want to see it demeaned the way the PUL community demean their symbols.
Quote from: LeoMc on October 22, 2013, 04:34:15 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on October 22, 2013, 01:57:59 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 21, 2013, 05:10:32 PM
Quote from: naka on October 20, 2013, 08:30:46 PM
have to agree with joe on this
the gaa is an easy target for the unionist brigade, gaa is by far the biggest sport in the north and that's what annoys them,
if names are changed ,the next thing will be the national flag being attacked, then the national anthem before games,
Don't see the point in having either at the games tbh.
In the north since partition the match on sunday and the gaelic club is the one place we were able to express our nationality without reproach. It is something we should never give up.
Now that we have moved on and are secure in our Irishness I don't see the point in it. It was a very important symbol of Irishness when there was no other way of expressing it but IMO Scratched CD's or Maria Carey wannabes belting it out over a 1970;'s sound system, as well as ever present roaring over the top of the final few lines takes away from it.
I would not want to see it demeaned the way the PUL community demean their symbols.
I was thinking more of the flag at games...treated respectfully.
You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't really. There are always going to be those who use the Irishness as a stick beat the GAA with and it's always going to be like that even if we change the names of clubs called after volunteers, remove the flag, remove the national anthem etc.
Ulster Rugby is a prime example. They have no shred of sectarianism anymore yet I know countless people who even follow Rugby now but will never darken the door of Ravenhill because it used to be under the British Flag and because of the bastardised NI fleg that used to be waved about by fans. I was at Ravenhill the other week and I think there was only 1 of those flags I could see in the whole crowd and it was a full house.
Amazing that there are so many GAA people who apparently would wish to see an association with no flags flown at matches, no national anthem before matches, and no clubs named after Irish patriots or after Irish saints. Basically, a GAA without any semblance of soul, tradition or identity. Should we try to avoid any use of the Irish Language too because surely that's just a "dead language" and a bit too openly culturally Irish and sure it's use might upset Jim Allister too? ::)
I mean, posters even complaining about clubs being named after saints? Really?! Does it actually annoy you or does it just make you feel mature and forward thinking to regard clubs being named after saints as somehow outdated or politically exclusive or just not secular enough or just a bit too Irish? Or is down to an irresistible urge to pander to every 'little n.Irelander' who rings into the Nolan show who has no interest in GAA beyond attacking it and who wouldn't join a GAA club if they could chose the name of it themselves?
Quote from: Nally Stand on October 22, 2013, 06:01:47 PM
Amazing that there are so many GAA people who apparently would wish to see an association with no flags flown at matches, no national anthem before matches, and no clubs named after Irish patriots or after Irish saints. Basically, a GAA without any semblance of soul, tradition or identity. Should we try to avoid any use of the Irish Language too because surely that's just a "dead language" and a bit too openly culturally Irish and sure it's use might upset Jim Allister too? ::)
I mean, posters even complaining about clubs being named after saints? Really?! Does it actually annoy you or does it just make you feel mature and forward thinking to regard clubs being named after saints as somehow outdated or politically exclusive or just not secular enough or just a bit too Irish? Or is down to an irresistible urge to pander to every 'little n.Irelander' who rings into the Nolan show who has no interest in GAA beyond attacking it and who wouldn't join a GAA club if they could chose the name of it themselves?
Nail on head!!
It's amazing how many gaa followers think it's about a game of inter county football, we need to educate our own members
Blah blah blah . . . are we a sporting organisation or a Nationalist/Republican organisation?!!!!
Do you think if we lose all the Nationalist paraphernalia that we will suddenly lose our identity and people will stop sending their kids and we will lose volunteers/coaches etc?
Nonsense!
In my opinion we should keep the Scór, the Irish Language, the flag and Anthem before Championship games... anything else can go whistle as far as I'm concerned!
Quote from: Nally Stand on October 22, 2013, 06:01:47 PM
Amazing that there are so many GAA people who apparently would wish to see an association with no flags flown at matches, no national anthem before matches, and no clubs named after Irish patriots or after Irish saints. Basically, a GAA without any semblance of soul, tradition or identity. Should we try to avoid any use of the Irish Language too because surely that's just a "dead language" and a bit too openly culturally Irish and sure it's use might upset Jim Allister too? ::)
I mean, posters even complaining about clubs being named after saints? Really?! Does it actually annoy you or does it just make you feel mature and forward thinking to regard clubs being named after saints as somehow outdated or politically exclusive or just not secular enough or just a bit too Irish? Or is down to an irresistible urge to pander to every 'little n.Irelander' who rings into the Nolan show who has no interest in GAA beyond attacking it and who wouldn't join a GAA club if they could chose the name of it themselves?
Christ I agree with Nally...I need a doctor.
I remember when we were doing our official field opening years ago, and were putting up the tricolour for the day, it was brought up should we inform the local protestant famers as not to offend them. Anyway we decided to do this and none of them had a problem, think they were actually impressed that we had bothered to ensure we woudlnt offend them, Unionists in city areas would have zero conception of the gaa and what it means, they go out of their way to be offended
Quote from: Nally Stand on October 22, 2013, 06:01:47 PM
Amazing that there are so many GAA people who apparently would wish to see an association with no flags flown at matches, no national anthem before matches, and no clubs named after Irish patriots or after Irish saints. Basically, a GAA without any semblance of soul, tradition or identity. Should we try to avoid any use of the Irish Language too because surely that's just a "dead language" and a bit too openly culturally Irish and sure it's use might upset Jim Allister too? ::)
I mean, posters even complaining about clubs being named after saints? Really?! Does it actually annoy you or does it just make you feel mature and forward thinking to regard clubs being named after saints as somehow outdated or politically exclusive or just not secular enough or just a bit too Irish? Or is down to an irresistible urge to pander to every 'little n.Irelander' who rings into the Nolan show who has no interest in GAA beyond attacking it and who wouldn't join a GAA club if they could chose the name of it themselves?
Excellent post.
Joe is dead right here. If you don't like aspects of the GAA tough. Either learn to accept it or go away to some other organisation. Some people really don't seem to know or understand what the GAA is about or what it stands for.
Quote from: Nally Stand on October 22, 2013, 06:01:47 PM
Amazing that there are so many GAA people who apparently would wish to see an association with no flags flown at matches, no national anthem before matches, and no clubs named after Irish patriots or after Irish saints.
Jaysus you keep some company. I've yet to meet one of those people.
Brolly on Twitter tonight
''One of the worst things to emerge from the Troubles is Stephen Nolan''
Brolly really getting back into my good books,
Quote from: ONeill on October 24, 2013, 12:03:28 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on October 22, 2013, 06:01:47 PM
Amazing that there are so many GAA people who apparently would wish to see an association with no flags flown at matches, no national anthem before matches, and no clubs named after Irish patriots or after Irish saints.
Jaysus you keep some company. I've yet to meet one of those people.
Straw man in extremis?
What's this obsession people have with this Stephen Nolan?
I watched him or heard his programme a few years back and thought it was crap - but he was a master of tapping into people's darkest sectarian tendencies and making a name for himself through it. Smart man.
I haven't watched or heard him since in the same way I haven't watched Loose Wemen since that one time....
Tell a lie - I saw the bit where Joe Brolly was on his show promoting his donation campaign.
Edit: Just looked at Joe's twitter account - some kind of risky banter involving legal teams???
I think the GAA should and will always promote Irish culture but plenty of us don't consider dead Republican volunteers to represent our Irish culture and identity. In fact some of us consider those people to have hijacked our culture and identity.
Another thing I consider out of date is the national anthem before every game. I'm all for it on All-Ireland final day and provincial finals but can't be arsed with it before national league games.
Quote from: OakleafCounty on October 24, 2013, 09:05:02 AM
I think the GAA should and will always promote Irish culture but plenty of us don't consider dead Republican volunteers to represent our Irish culture and identity. In fact some of us consider those people to have hijacked our culture and identity.
Another thing I consider out of date is the national anthem before every game. I'm all for it on All-Ireland final day and provincial finals but can't be arsed with it before national league games.
It is great for a young lad to parade around for the first time before a match and then have the anthem, but I do think it would be better if it was limited to County Finals, Provincial Finals etc.
Quote from: OakleafCounty on October 24, 2013, 09:05:02 AM
I think the GAA should and will always promote Irish culture but plenty of us don't consider dead Republican volunteers to represent our Irish culture and identity. In fact some of us consider those people to have hijacked our culture and identity.
Another thing I consider out of date is the national anthem before every game. I'm all for it on All-Ireland final day and provincial finals but can't be arsed with it before national league games.
I would be happy limiting the anthem to All-Ireland & Provincial Finals - county & club. It would help signify that these games are a bit more important.
Playing it in-between the two games in a senior club double-header has always baffled me - why not play it before both, or why is it only necessary before the bigger of the two ties (maybe this is only a Derry thing?). Playing a crackly record over the PA system doesnt seem to happen as often any more.
Is America the only other country where they regularly play/sing the national anthem before games involving two domestic teams?
America is unreal for it. I have to say the Hockey games anthems are great auld atmosphere builders, especially the Canadian Anthem when a team from there is involved. However the anthem before every pro game seems to be crazy. I'm not 100% sure about this, but I don't think the anthem is played before college games, unless it's a big bowl game..
Edit, actually it seems I'm wrong. The SSB is played before all of these games too, even though I can't seem to remember it at all. I certainly remember it at the Pro Sports, but I think it's because they make a bigger production out of it.
At big games, which would be worthy of the anthem being played, they up the ante by having a flyover or something mad like that.
Quote from: Jinxy on October 24, 2013, 01:45:33 PM
Is America the only other country where they regularly play/sing the national anthem before games involving two domestic teams?
I went to see Manchester Storm play ice hockey when I lived there, so mid-late 90s. Against Basingstoke I think. They played the British anthem beforehand - I wasnt expecting it! Sat in my seat while the rest of the crowd stood.
I have watched Belfast Giants and there was no anthem. I dont know if the anthem is played before all main ice hockey games (minus Belfast) - suppose its an American thing they imported.
Quote from: No Soloing on October 24, 2013, 02:34:14 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on October 24, 2013, 01:45:33 PM
Is America the only other country where they regularly play/sing the national anthem before games involving two domestic teams?
I went to see Manchester Storm play ice hockey when I lived there, so mid-late 90s. Against Basingstoke I think. They played the British anthem beforehand - I wasnt expecting it! Sat in my seat while the rest of the crowd stood.
I have watched Belfast Giants and there was no anthem. I dont know if the anthem is played before all main ice hockey games (minus Belfast) - suppose its an American thing they imported.
Just out of interest, why did you do that? Would you remain seated for the French or Spanish anthem? I don't think it's a great sacrifice to at least show due respect to another countries anthem.
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 24, 2013, 02:40:37 PM
Quote from: No Soloing on October 24, 2013, 02:34:14 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on October 24, 2013, 01:45:33 PM
Is America the only other country where they regularly play/sing the national anthem before games involving two domestic teams?
I went to see Manchester Storm play ice hockey when I lived there, so mid-late 90s. Against Basingstoke I think. They played the British anthem beforehand - I wasnt expecting it! Sat in my seat while the rest of the crowd stood.
I have watched Belfast Giants and there was no anthem. I dont know if the anthem is played before all main ice hockey games (minus Belfast) - suppose its an American thing they imported.
Just out of interest, why did you do that? Would you remain seated for the French or Spanish anthem? I don't think it's a great sacrifice to at least show due respect to another countries anthem.
15 odd years ago I was a fair bit more republican (with a small r) - priorities have changed since I have got older and had a family so I've mellowed quite a bit
I am from the north so beside all the obvious guff that the British establishment laid on the lives of nationalists/republicans, I presume would be more used to having British/Royal stuff rammed down my throat than someone from Offaly - it gives the anthem the obvious link with parades, flegs etc - so I have no respect for the anthem
I was stopped and searched by the British Army (and cops) countless times as a youth/young adult - on a weekly basis while at uni in the 90s (ring of steel) - and aul Liz is nominally the head of the army
The Brit anthem at the time was a bit of an issue. They were calls for it not to be played at graduations at Queens and Uni of Ulster. At ceremonies there were situations were some people stood, some sat and some didnt know what to do. So I was far from the first northern Catholic not to stand for Gstq.
So those kind of things along with the general disdain for the British royalty and their anthem meant I was never and am never likely to stand for the anthem. Here was a chance to take a stand (or sit in this case) - so I was taking it
I would have seen it as a great sacrifice if I was to stand - I would have been hypocritical to stand.
I did the same at my wife's graduation.
I am ambivalent to the French or Spanish anthem so would happily stand for it.
Fair enough, so it's just the British National anthem you have a problem with, due to your own circumstances. Fair enough. Just wondering. And you are right, we didn't have GSTQ blaring at us. My opinion of it is that I would always stand for any country's anthem out of respect.
I was given out to at a hockey game in Arizona for not putting my hand over my heart when the SSB was playing, even though I stood for the anthem. I told them to piss off.
There's a response of sorts in the Irish Times to ramblin' Joe, from a journalist more usually associated with reporting and promoting of a gambling turnover event, horse racing.
(Gambling, is a mental disease whose effects can range from very mild to wild and which can become addictive and extremely destructive. Gambling addiction has grown by 50% in recent years. That well known character, FBI Chief J. Edgar Hoover boldly declared in 1951 that "gambling is a vicious evil, it corrupts our youth and blights the lives of adults.")
Anyway, O'Connor claims
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/naming-of-clubs-after-fanatics-shouldn-t-be-tolerated-by-the-gaa-1.1575008?page=2 (http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/naming-of-clubs-after-fanatics-shouldn-t-be-tolerated-by-the-gaa-1.1575008?page=2)
the GAA should not ....
Naming of clubs after fanatics shouldn't be tolerated by the GAA
Kevin Lynch was a member of the Irish National Liberation Army. Given the sectarian history of Irish republicanism, such a conclusion mostly boils down to killing Protestants. Lynch figured killing someone was an acceptable price to pay to get what he wanted. By any reasonable definition of the word, that made him a fanatic.
He himself was convicted of knee-capping and stealing guns. When in prison he went on hunger strike and starved himself to death in 1981.
The alliance of Brits/UDR/RUC/UVF etc = all good guys, a one time teenager from Derry with a hurley stick and republican ethos = bad guy.
O'Connor, with the zeal of a Taliban pro, has as his pc jihad, the naming of one club in Derry, which all of a sudden has become the barrier to progress after 30 years of a slumber like existence. The name of this club now stands between his glorious vision of Ireland and an "uber-Gael, Provo-lite, pub-patriot wet-dream".
I just love a good old fashioned blueshirt-like rant wrapped up in the Irish Times.
17 November 2013
It's a Wednesday morning in Belfast. I'm sitting in a huge BMW on the Ormeau Road trying to get to grips with Joe Brolly. Barely five minutes have passed since we left his home and we're wrestling for control of the narrative.
He wants to talk about the Celtic manager, Neil Lennon, and I want to talk about Joe Brolly.
"We were guests at this dinner at St Michael's in Lurgan," he says. "I think it was their 50th year celebration. The place was buzzing. Lurgan people are great fun. They're game as pheasants and exhuberant and . . . "
"I used to go out with a girl from Lurgan," I interrupt.
"Aye, sure you'll know all about it then," he replies. "When they're not pelting bricks at the cops they're great fun. So it was a very hearty evening and . . . "
"My bottom is being heated."
"What?"
"My bottom."
"Aye, the seats are heated. Do you not want that?"
"No, it's nice actually. You've come a long way."
"Oh aye, from Minoghers out in Drum where we had big rats running through the place. It was a freezin', freezin' house."
"Is that where you lived?"
"That's where I was born."
"Minoghers?"
"Aye, it was just called Minoghers. It was in lower Drum."
"What's lower Drum?"
"It's a wee country place about four miles outside Dungiven, close to a place called Gortnahey . . . but anyway, this dinner was extra boisterous because Lennon had just been appointed as the new Celtic manager that week."
A dog has drifted onto the road in front of us. He brakes and waits for it to run off but the dog is lost and completely oblivious. "I'll tell you a story about that," he says, barping the horn. "We were going to training one night. There was a few of us in the car and a dog was crossing the road and our driver just went straight over it. I said 'Jesus Christ! Could you not have avoided him?' He says (adopts gruff tone), 'A boy down our way swerved to avoid a dog and drove into a tree. I was at his funeral. You'll not be going to my funeral, Brolly. You can go to the dog's funeral if you like. Dead dog.' And he repeated that about five times: 'Dead dog, dead dog.'
"Anyway, so we're at this dinner with Lennon and Seamy Heffron is the beloved sports master up at St Michael's."
"Why are we talking about Seamy Heffron?"
"Because he's a legend up there," he says. "I call him the white Huggy Bear. He has a hairy chest and wears these shirts and he winks (Brolly twists his head and clicks his tongue) – it's perpetual motion and the girls love him. Seamy played Gaelic football for Watty Grahams in Maghera – Enda Gormley's club – but he was a brilliant soccer player. And he was a Francophile, which would have been very unusual. He loved the French language and went out to one of the lower division French clubs to play soccer for them.
"So he lived there for a couple of years and came back and played Gaelic for Watty Grahams. And he used to berate referees in fluent French, so he would never get sent off. (He mimics a perfect French accent) 'Arbitre! Arbitre! Va te faire encoulee,' which means stick your . . ."
"That's okay, I know what that means," I laugh. "Now, can we talk about you?"
It's going to be a long day.
* * * * *
PK: Tell me about your wife?
JB: Emma Rose McCann.
PK: How did you meet?
JB: We met in Trinity on our first day. We were in Halls out in Rathmines. She went out with my room-mate for a couple of weeks and he said 'That's us finished. You can have her if you want.'
PK: And you did?
JB: So I did. And we have more or less been together since then. We left a decent gap before we actually moved in, we were 22 or something like that when we moved in together.
PK: And your first day in Trinity was when?
JB: In 1987, I was 18. We were married when we were 30.
PK: Where is she from?
JB: She's from Ballymena, so it was an alien culture to me. And Dungiven would have been an alien culture to her.
PK: Is she a Protestant?
JB: Oh, no, she's a Fenian, but Ballymena Fenians are like Protestants, and you can quote me on that.
PK: (I laugh) I will, but you need to explain it.
JB: Well, I mean . . . it was an overwhelmingly Protestant place. They (her family) were from a middle class, very theatrical background. Her first cousin is Liam Neeson and her Da, Jack, was a renowned racounteur and legal man in the town. They were a pretty sophisticated family. So Dungiven would have been totally alien to her when we started courtin'. And we would have done whatever courtin' we were doing around Dungiven, always.
PK: Why? Was she afraid to bring you home?
JB: Well, there was more places you could go.
PK: (I laugh) I'll be quoting you on that as well.
JB: That's alright.
PK: Why did it take you so long to get married?
JB: I was sort of reluctant, I think. It's not that I wasn't in love or anything like that. I mean we were living together anyway, so there was none of that urgency.
PK: But you said you were reluctant.
JB: Aye, I think I was a bit sort of . . . It wasn't something that I had ever really . . . I would have been happy enough to have youngsters outside of marriage.
PK: What was it about marriage?
JB: Nothing particular, but I have no wedding photographs or anything, not a single wedding photo.
PK: Okay, and that's telling me something. What is it telling me?
JB: It tells you that, I don't know, you'll have to work that out for yourself. But Dungiven was totally alien to her; she was shocked when she came to Dungiven and saw that the police and the Brits were boycotted. They weren't served in any of the shops, and couldn't get out of their vehicles – this would have been at the height of the troubles in '87, '88, '89, '90. Dungiven was trenchently Republican and entirely separatist. We wouldn't have viewed ourselves as part of Northern Ireland.
PK: Would she in Ballymena?
JB: It would have been different there. They would have been middle-class, non-sectarian. We would have been living in a different situation. It was only when I went to Trinity, really, that I realised that 'Prods bad, Fenian's good' wasn't going to cut the mustard. So I learned a lot there, and opened out a lot because we lived in a one-track, there was only one ethos, one culture. The Brits were "black Bastards." You chanted "SS RUC" at the cops out in the street. If they asked you what your name was, you told them you were "Patrick Pearse," or to "f**k-up, it's none of your business." So it was a very different culture and then, obviously, I went to Trinity and moved to the real world if you know what I mean. And I was very quickly divested of all those ridiculous notions.
PK: It happened quickly?
JB: Yeah, because it couldn't stand-up to logical scrutiny. I was in the company of fellows from all over Ireland and from all over Europe, and so all of that was put under the light. And that made a huge difference to me because you didn't have . . . the internet and stuff like that wasn't open to you, so you were really just part of your community and whatever was going there was what you were.
PK: What made you go to Trinity?
JB: It was my father. He said 'You need to get out of this place.'
PK: Did he?
JB: Oh, aye. And I had an adventurous spirit anyway. I went to boarding school – St Pat's in Armagh – when I was 11. I remember driving off with my father in his aul green Lada, he used to get these oul Ladas from Brendan Campbell in Coalisland. You want to see these things; the seats were made of the purist plastic and they would actually have burned your arse on a hot day. And you could hear it, it was like a tractor, and I remember looking out the window at St Pat's and thinking: 'f**king brilliant.' I was delighted.
PK: To go there?
JB: Aye, it was great. It was like Pinochio's Island – we ran amok. It was an old style grammar school; the seniors dispensed discipline with the staff. In the study, I remember a teacher, Jeff Randall, saying – he was an Englishman, had been in the RAF – but he says to one of the prefects (adopts a stern English accent), 'Are you going to do something about that Mr Donnelly?' And he (Donnelly, the prefect) come over and just cuffed me on the back of the ear. It was a small school but we played basketball all the time and Gaelic football. And they had a very strong emphasis on drama and music. I was the boy soprano in the Cathedral.
PK: Are you an only child?
JB: No, there's five of us.
PK: What's the order?
JB: I'm the oldest. There's two brothers and two sisters but we're (all) musical. My mother has a beautiful singing voice. She was the All-Ireland champion in the early '70s and the whole town was so proud of her. She sang a Tyrone song called 'Brockagh Braes.' (He starts singing.) 'And the wee girl I do adore.' She sings it so beautifully. And 'The Hills Above Drumquin' and 'The Mountains of Pomeroy' and 'The Old Cross of Ardboe.' And I think that incessant singing of Tyrone songs is what gave me my deep and enduring hatred of Tyrone. (Laughs)
PK: How did your parents meet?
JB: My father was playing for a band called 'The Roe Gems'. He was singing, and writing songs and playing guitar for them. And she was the "Coalisland Singing Sensation" – we have one of her wee billing photos at home with her beehive hairstyle and tiny miniskirt and a silver dress. They met on a programme called 'As I Roved Out' and he proposed within a fortnight.
PK: Really?
JB: Oh, aye. And they were married very quickly.
PK: So you don't take after your father then?
JB: (Laughs) No, but you see he was about 30 when he met her. And very quickly after that the three boys were born just one after the other and then he was interned. We would have got a lot of that when we were young – the Brits coming through the house and being turfed out of the beds in the early morning. They would just rush in.
PK: What was that like?
JB: I just have vague memories of the beds being overturned and him being taken away, just a vague memory of the day that they finally took him away.
PK: When was that?
JB: More or less at the start of internment. He was one of the first. I mean, he was in for nearly three years. We were only wee but . . .
PK: How old?
JB: I would have been about four. I remember me mother dressing us in wee cowboy suits going in to see him at Christmas time. You see, the thing about internment was that you never knew when they were getting out. There was no trial, or sentence, or anything, they were just interned. And my father was a very literary man – himself and (Seamus) Heaney were classmates in St Columb's and would have been vying for top spot in the class. But he wrote these beautiful stories (from prison) on wee tiny pieces of paper and my mother used to read them to us – he sent them every week. So they had some freedoms but you had no idea when they were getting out. We didn't have a phone or anything and one day Don (the next door neighbour) just knocked at the door and said: 'Francie's got out, you have to go and pick him up.' And the cavalcade went up and brought him down in triumph.
PK: There was a celebration?
JB: Oh Jesus Christ almighty, the whole town gathered and there was a big music session in the house that night. I can remember sitting on his knee and he was eating Oxtail soup my mother had warmed from a tin, he loved Oxtail soup. And that was it; there was never another word about it. And he just went straight back to teaching (he was a secondary school teacher) and playing centre-back for the Dungiven hurlers and footballers. But our Eunan, my father's youngest brother, was on the blanket and suffered terribly. Some of the boys did 100 per cent like.
PK: What do you mean by 100 per cent?
JB: Well, you had boys like Raymond McCartney, who was on hunger strike for 50 or 52 days and was close to death in the first hunger strike, you know the iconic images? And Raymond is a great friend of mine and a great friend of our family's.
His conviction for murder was overturned recently. He had served 18 years and was released and we brought a compensation claim, which was refused, and eventually we went to the Supreme Court. He is totally unmaterialistic. He's an MLA and is married to a beautiful woman and everything is good in his life.
* * * * *
The drive to Craigavon takes 35 minutes. He steps from the car and strides up the steps to the courthouse wearing a crisp grey suit that he will cloak, almost immediately, with a barrister's wig and gown.
His first stop is a visit to the cells and a meeting with two brothers he is defending on a GBH charge. Both are already serving time and the circumstances of their case means there's some trading to be done. He has a brief conversation with the prosecuting barrister and they are called to see the judge. An hour later, after a brief hearing in Court Number 1, we are back in the car and heading back towards Belfast and another case at the Royal Courts of Justice.
PK: Let's go back to Trinity. You studied law, obviously. Why law?
JB: I had no academic interest in law but I liked (shows like) Columbo and I liked Rumpole.
PK: And that was it?
JB: Yeah, and Petrocelli, although he was a bit frantic.
PK: And that's all it was?
JB: Yeah, I just drifted into it really because I couldn't think of anything else. Law seemed like a middle-of-the-road degree between an art and a science, and you couldn't fail law in Trinity – they had a very strict policy (chuckles) that everybody passed. It was a rigid policy that they've adhered to for centuries.
(I laugh.)
JB: That's not a joke.
PK: Was Emma doing law?
JB: No, Emma did French and English literature.
PK: Did you like Dublin?
JB: I loved Dublin, and it was different then, everything was cheap, and we had a lot of fun. There was a lot of drinking and stuff, but very little sex and promiscuity – which wasn't the case in the northern universities at all. I can't really think of anybody who was having sex.
PK: How do you explain that?
JB: It was hard to get condoms. I remember in Trinity, they kept bringing condom slot machines into the student union and every now and again the guards would come in and cart them out. And there would be screaming and protests. But there wasn't an atmosphere of promiscuity, or if there was I didn't . . .
PK: Sense it?
JB: No. But we had a lot of fun and football was a huge part of it. We got out of the second division and up to the first and should have won a Sigerson (Cup). And obviously the priority then was to play for Derry. So in '91 we won a club championship with Dungiven.
PK: Why was that a priority?
JB: Well, I mean my life was Gaelic football for Dungiven and Derry – everything else was secondary. We won a club championship in '91 and then Derry, for the first time, were going into high gear. We had some great players; Brian McGilligan and Anthony Tohill in midfield; (Tony) Scullion and Kieran McKeever, probably the two best corner-backs of their generation; Henry Downey at centre-back – the prince of centre halves. And two superb free takers – left-footed, Enda Gormley and right-footed, Anthony Tohill. So we had all of the ingredients there. So that became the obsession.
PK: To win an All-Ireland?
JB: Yeah, and we won it really quickly. We won a couple of Leagues and then we were the All-Ireland champions in '93.
PK: What did that mean to you?
JB: It was just a terrible anti-climax.
PK: Yes, you've said that before. Explain?
JB: Since I was a wee child we used to play in the back garden. The oul fella had built a set of goalposts for us and we would always have the national anthem before we would play the matches. All I ever wanted was to win an All-Ireland; you thought it was some type of Holy Grail but in fact it was just a massive anti-climax. I remember waking-up next morning and thinking: 'What the f**k was all the fuss about?'
PK: What did you expect?
JB: I expected there would be great joy.
PK: And was there no joy?
JB: It was a total anti-climax. It was like 'What's next?' I have no . . . I have a very poor memory for games. I know that people make a big fuss about being All-Ireland champions and club champions and all that, and people always recount all of these things but they mean nothing to me. You've been to our house, did you see all of the trophies and all of the medals?
PK: Where is the medal?
JB: My mother has it. I don't think I have ever actually seen it. I mean I have never watched the All-Ireland final – not once. You'd see the odd clip but I would have no interest in watching it.
PK: How were you doing workwise at that time?
JB: I was starting at the Bar and going flat out. I came into the Bar with a couple of advantages. I had no connections and I had studied in Trinity, so I was coming here blind. I was Francie Brolly's son and Derry were at the top table – we were the All-Ireland champions.
PK: How was that an advantage to a barrister living in Belfast?
JB: Well, just the fact that you speak the people's language. I was in Omagh recently doing a trial and there was a fellow wearing a Tyrone jersey and he kept pointing at his badge and winking over at me.
A lot of barristers put on fancy voices and lose their own accents, and they are remote from the jury and aloof. It's better to be like those guys in the John Grisham films – the barrister from the deep south who rolls up to the jury and says "Morning y'all." So it's a big advantage that people know who you are but being a barrister, particularly criminal defence, is a brutal, unforgiving world. A loose question in cross-examination can mean the difference between acquittal and conviction. But I've always enjoyed it, and I have a feel for the underdog and things like that.
PK: What do you mean by underdog?
JB: Well, it's just these people are the disconnected. You will rarely, if ever, see someone from Grammar school, or with a good education, or with a proper suit-and-tie going through the criminal system. And if they do, they are treated entirely differently. The vast majority of people here are . . . they've got mental health problems, addiction problems, poverty issues – you saw it today yourself, the lads were wearing tracksuits.
PK: Yes, well one of them was.
JB: The criminal law in essence, and the criminal courts, is a device for coping with the underprivileged. Lack of education, poverty – all of those things contribute to societies where people are . . . they are afloat on a sea of Diazepam. The normal routines aren't there; they don't have any dreams and it's inevitable that there are going to be a lot more social problems which lead on to murders, or domestic murders where alcohol or drugs have been taken. Someone is dead, they pick up the phone: "Oh Christ! I've killed my friend." And they get 18 years in prison. So the criminal law system is a mechanism for coping with the consequences of poverty and being under privileged.
PK: You clearly empathise with them.
JB: Well that's the reality of it.
PK: Yes, I know, but not everybody is as empathetic as you are.
JB: Its not that, it's just that that's what it is. It's like people going around saying they believe in God. Nobody actually believes in God. Nobody that I know actually really believes in God. I mean, let's be fair about it, an 80-year-old man (Noah) travels to the North Pole to get two Polar bears, to bring them back and put them in a boat that he has made, like, come on! My son, Joe, is seven and he says 'Sure everybody knows the Bible is just made up."
PK: You've said that criminal defence is a brutal business but that you enjoy it. What aspects of it do you enjoy?
JB: I enjoy the . . . it's very gregarious. You're meeting people at their best and at their worst. You're seeing a lot. You're seeing the world warts and all and there is also the theatrical side of it, the performance aspect of it, which I relish.
And I don't mean performance like an acting performance, I mean the idea of putting the art of persuasion into practice. How to cross-examine someone to get what you need from them; how to break down a liar in the box, because that's the other thing you learn – human beings are fundamentally dishonest. A human being's first instinct will be to protect himself, or herself. And to not look bad, and to not be embarrassed, and often the mechanism for that is to lie. Everyone lies.
That's the reality of life and another thing that you learn. And this charade that's gone through of getting people to take the oath, I mean f**k me that makes me laugh. Because what the oath is before a witness gives evidence . . . it emboldens their lies. But I enjoy the chase and I enjoy people in the box, because you can judge a book by its cover except in the minority of cases.
PK: And why defence rather than prosecution?
JB: Well, I just wouldn't like to, it wouldn't be in my nature.
PK: A lot of people who watch The Sunday Game will be splitting their sides at that one.
JB: Well, I just think the whole system is ludicrous, it's stacked against the accused and I enjoy the war against that.
* * * * *
The second hearing – a bail case at the Royal Courts of Justice – is also quickly resolved. He recommends a small café near Victoria Square for lunch and is scrutinised by a perplexed diner as he waits for a table. "I know you from somewhere," the man observes. "I'm a barrister," Brolly replies. "That must be it, so," the diner smiles.
He orders a sandwich and seems on first-name terms with the waitresses but it's not long before his thoughts turn to his friend, Shane Finnegan. "We'll go and see him after lunch," he says.
PK: You've never written a book?
JB: I think a lot people will have to die before I write a book.
PK: Explain.
JB: No.
PK: I'm sorry, but you'll have to do better than that.
JB: Well there are two reasons I wouldn't write a book; the first is that I don't have any impulse to write a book, and I don't have the creative urge. You write because it's inside you and you want to get it out there.
PK: I've read your columns. You could write a great book.
JB: Well I don't feel like that.
PK: You seem restless by nature.
JB: Yeah, I mean I'm an insomniac, so I get a couple of hours sleep a night.
PK: How many on average?
JB: Sometimes two, sometimes four, sometimes three. Shane Finnegan says I've got bipolar disorder without the depressive symptoms.
PK: Talk me through how you met Shane.
JB: Well, there's nothing much to talk through. We were coaching at St Brigid's. I was taking the under 12s and sort of overseeing the under 10s and making sure that everything was done right and (I noticed that) he was down on his hunkers. I said, "Have you been drinking? What's wrong with you?" He said, "No, I'm end stage kidney failure." I said, "I'll give you a kidney."
PK: Just like that?
JB: Like that, I didn't even know he was sick. I said "I'll give you a kidney" and went back to the lads and went on with it. I didn't say it dramatically or anything. It was impulsive but I totally meant it. So then on the Wednesday night at the training again, he came over to me and said: "Were you serious about that?" And I said, "I've already been up (to the hospital) and given blood."
PK: How well did you know him?
JB: I didn't know him at all. I didn't know he had a wife.
PK: You didn't know him at all?
JB: I knew he was one of the Finnegans because I know his brother. His brother's a damn good footballer and played for Antrim. And Shane was a good footballer, but his career was destroyed by kidney failure at 18. So I didn't know him at all really. And I didn't tell Emma at that stage.
PK: That was my next question.
JB: Yeah, I just thought it might come to nothing and I didn't want her to be worrying about it.
PK: What happened when you did tell her?
JB: Well, it's a bit of a rollercoaster in our house, anyway. You've a lot of, "What the hell have you just said?" and "What has just happened?" But as it started to hove into view I just said to her, "Look, I want to give this guy, Shane Finnegan a kidney." And she's dead-on, Emma. There's no nonsense out of her. Her sister died of breast cancer and she knows the benefits of helping out and all that.
PK: But you don't know this guy.
JB: Well, you do know him, because he's a GAA man. He has a family. I knew him but I had no relationship with him.
PK: And you take three months off work to give him one of your f**king kidneys!
JB: Well, I'd seen the damage. My beloved cousin Catherine died after a lung transplant had failed and I saw the devastation that wrought on her family. Danny Quinn, who played full-back on the Derry team that won the All-Ireland, was her husband and a very close friend of mine. And I'd seen the devastation to her kids and the damage it had caused. I didn't do it from a sense of adventure; I did it because I thought, 'This will make it right and he'll have a long life.'
PK: And it never occurred to you to donate before?
JB: I didn't know anything about it. I only got a donor card when I came back (after the operation) because I thought I'd better not go on an organ donation campaigning without being a donor.
PK: You had the operation in London. What happened?
JB: Well, there are so many hurdles to overcome but everything was a match and I went over there with my usual confidence because everything that I've ever encountered has become a success. So I just thought, 'This is going to be a breeze. We'll emerge from this and blow kisses to the crowd and then off we go into the sunset. He'll have a new life and live until he's an old man and everything is going to be great.' And I infected Catherine with that exuberance.
PK: Who's Catherine?
JB: Shane's wife. She was certain because I was certain. And all of a sudden you're off and they put a mark on your kidney and you're knocked out and you awake in a sort of delirium. And I opened my eyes and said "Has it gone okay?"
And they said "Yeah, but it's early days." And you just think 'f**king brilliant. This guy is going to live and he will live because I have done this.' And I had this wave of euphoria. And day two, things are getting better again and I have this wave of euphoria. And day three, all good, all great. And the girls – Catherine and Emma – hit the town and partied and it was fantastic and everyone was delighted. A life was going to be transformed and then . . .
PK: What went wrong?
JB: There were complications and the transplant malfunctioned in circumstances that . . . we were told there were no examples of it in the literature. They said it was "a freak rejection in circumstances which we have not encountered before" and you feel . . . (He pauses for a moment and swallows hard) . . . guilt is maybe the wrong word but you feel this thing deep inside you. It's in your bones this sadness, this sort of grieving, because you know he has been on dialysis for seven years and you know it can't continue.
PK: You said something extraordinary at lunchtime – that you felt closer to Shane than to your wife and kids.
JB: That's just how I feel. I react to him instinctively. There's this close, close bond that's very difficult to describe. It would be an exceptional thing for any human being to be intertwined with someone for ten days, the beds beside each other, as these life or death issues unfold. I accept that it was unusual, given that he was a stranger beforehand but I also have to say that he's an exceptional human being apart from anything else.
PK: Yes, I've met him and understand that.
JB: He's fun and interesting and inspirational. So I'm just telling you that I've got that intimacy with Shane that I don't have with anyone else.
PK: What would Emma think if she heard you saying that?
JB: I don't know. I appreciate that it may sound unusual but I suppose when you've given someone a part of your body, you feel responsible for what's happening. It must be a bit like the bond that Emma has with the children. They are part of her body, and have come from her body and she has a bond with them that's deeper than mine.
* * * * *
He spends an hour with Finnegan at his place of work, Aiken Promotions on the Lisburn Road, and suggests we drive back into the city and finish the interview at home. Maeve (10), his only daughter, and Niall (5), his youngest son, have returned from school; Rory (13), Toirelach (11), 'wee Joe' (8) and their mother, Emma, are not far away.
He flicks on his stupendous new sound system and plays a tune with a beat that's strong enough to shake its maker from the grave.
Holly came from Miami FLA
Hitch-hiked her way across the USA
Plucked her eyebrows on the way.
Shaved her legs and then he was a she
She said, hey babe, take a walk on the wild side
Said hey honey, take a walk on the wide side.
But any idiot can play Lou Reed.
He leads me to the front room, rubs his hands and regales me with some Chopin on the piano. "The 'Waltz in A flat' has technical difficulties," he explains, "because although Chopin writes brilliantly for the piano, and was a great pianist himself, your hands are moving in different directions simultaneously. But it's a beautiful piece and finishes with a real dash."
He plays the dash and follows it with a superb rendition of Schubert's 'Impromptu in A minor.' It's not the first time today he has taken your breath away but it's the first time you've been stumped. I could be here for the next week and I wouldn't even scratch this guy. How did this gifted and truly brilliant man become a circus act on The Sunday Game?
JB: That's what happens when you say it as you see it. People usually say, 'Well they are amateur players and they're doing their best,' whatever that means. As if being an amateur is a cloak against any sort of skullduggery. My attitude is, 'Listen, there it is, and if I am wrong I am wrong and you can tell me I'm wrong.' I don't go on The Sunday Game to earn money. I earn loads of money.
PK: Why do you go on it?
JB: Because I like the freedom of it. And RTE back you to the hilt. They never say "Don't say that or that."
PK: Do you like the platform?
JB: I do, and I like the discussion. The black card debate has been a brilliant thing to get into. It hit people in the gut and forced them to talk about it. Is this what we want for the game? Is this how we want young fellas playing? What do we believe in? What does the game stand for? What does it mean? So it's a great platform to start those big debates and I enjoy it.
PK: Is it a platform for Joe Brolly?
JB: I don't know what that means.
PK: 'Look at me. Listen to me. Because I enjoy this platform and I enjoy being recognised.'
JB: I don't care about that. Being recognised and all that is the downside of it. I like the crack and I like the public discourse but I'm happy not to be recognised because it's well difficult now. I had to go into the Croke Park Hotel to meet someone about organ donation after one of the matches and I was being mobbed so badly I had to be taken out the emergency exit by the security people.
PK: Could that be your true calling in life? The awareness you've raised about organ donation?
JB: No, because that will be done and dusted very quickly now. They're going to change the law and put in the new system (where donors opt out rather than opt in) and the public debate is great now and far bigger than me. So I'll be looking for something else to fill the void. There's always a void.
PK: There is?
JB: There's always a void.
One of the best interviews I've ever read.
Very good interview with JB here as well
http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10223511/
That's brilliant. Excuse my ignorance but who's PK?
Quote from: 5 Sams on November 17, 2013, 10:23:57 PM
That's brilliant. Excuse my ignorance but who's PK?
Paul Kimmage-ex pro cyclist cum journalist
Weird interview. Joe comes across as someone very much on the edge - almost on the spectrum.
It amazes me that Brolly hasn't yet paid a visit to the Twaddell Avenue camp.
Brilliant interview....you dont often get so much honesty from anyone let alone someone being interviewed by a reporter.
Joe's a legend.
Quote from: tbrick18 on November 18, 2013, 10:33:02 AM
Brilliant interview....you dont often get so much honesty from anyone let alone someone being interviewed by a reporter.
Joe's a legend.
Correctamundo
honesty from a meglaniac does not mean good sense.Brolly trying to be the GAA equivalent of Dunphy,courting publicity at every available opportunity.
Quotemeglaniac
What's this?
Quote from: T Fearon on November 18, 2013, 11:49:57 AM
honesty from a meglaniac does not mean good sense.Brolly trying to be the GAA equivalent of Dunphy,courting publicity at every available opportunity.
::)
Quote from: Zulu on November 18, 2013, 12:37:23 PM
Quotemeglaniac
What's this?
It's a makey up word, Ala Joey Essex.
Quote from: T Fearon on November 18, 2013, 11:49:57 AM
honesty from a meglaniac does not mean good sense.Brolly trying to be the GAA equivalent of Dunphy,courting publicity at every available opportunity.
I saw DJ getting his photo taken with you on Saturday. A proud day for him :)
Quote from: Zulu on November 18, 2013, 12:37:23 PM
Quotemeglaniac
What's this?
I think it's the new name for Enron
Quote from: T Fearon on November 18, 2013, 11:49:57 AM
honesty from a meglaniac does not mean good sense.Brolly trying to be the GAA equivalent of Dunphy,courting publicity at every available opportunity.
what you'd give for the platform ;-)
Just a steel town girl on a saturday night, lookin' for the fight of her life!
In the real-time world no one sees her at all, they all say she's crazy!
Locking rhythms to the beat of her heart, changing woman into life
She has danced into the danger zone, when the dancer becomes the dance!
It can cut you like a knife, if the gift becomes a fire!
On a wire between will and what will be!
She's a Meglaniac, Meglaniac on the floor!
And she's dancin' like she's never danced before!
She's a Meglaniac, Meglaniac on the floor!
And she's dancin' like she's never danced before!
On the ice built iron sanity, it's a place most never seen!
It's a hard warm place of mystery, touch it but can't hold it!
You work for your life for that moment in time, it could come or pass you by!
It's a push of the world, but there's always a chance
If the hunger stays the night!
There's a cold connective heat, struggling, stretching for defeat!
Never stoppin' with her head against the wind!
She's a Meglaniac, Meglaniac I sure know!
And she's dancin' like she's never danced before!
She's a Meglaniac, Meglaniac I sure know!
And she's dancin' like she's never danced before!
Oooh, oh!
(Solo)
It can cut you like a knife, if the gift becomes a fire!
On a wire between will and what will be!
She's a Meglaniac, Meglaniac I sure know!
And she's dancin' like she's never danced before!
She's a Meglaniac, Meglaniac I sure know!
And she's dancin' like she's never danced before!
Meglaniac, Meglaniac I sure know!
And she's dancin' like she's never danced before!
'niacs are nice people, in general.
I see he's on RTE 1 tonight
21:35
Joe Brolly - Perfect Match
Documentary following sports pundit Joe Brolly and Belfast-based PR executive Shane Finnegan's campaign to change the organ donation law of consent to a 'soft opt-out' scheme
after reading that interview I can honestly say that Joe Brolly has some type of borderline personality disorder. Im not criticizing him, its just an observation.
As likeable a fella as Brolly is, and I admire him for donating a kidney, I think it's totally wrong about this "opt-out" scheme. It should be up to the person themselves whether they want to be on the donor list or not. The publicity of Joe's donation would have seen a big rise on the number of people becoming donors anyway, but there was no need to go as far with this opt-out thing. Advertise the donor register, get people like Brolly to educate people on becoming one, but don't force them to be one.
I registered to become a donor when I just left school, because it was something I wanted to do. I was on the donor list for many years, until a few months ago, when I phoned and asked for my name to be removed. The reason was because I didn't like where they were going with this opt-out thing, and told them so.
Quote from: BennyCake on November 18, 2013, 08:13:19 PM
As likeable a fella as Brolly is, and I admire him for donating a kidney, I think it's totally wrong about this "opt-out" scheme. It should be up to the person themselves whether they want to be on the donor list or not. The publicity of Joe's donation would have seen a big rise on the number of people becoming donors anyway, but there was no need to go as far with this opt-out thing. Advertise the donor register, get people like Brolly to educate people on becoming one, but don't force them to be one.
I registered to become a donor when I just left school, because it was something I wanted to do. I was on the donor list for many years, until a few months ago, when I phoned and asked for my name to be removed. The reason was because I didn't like where they were going with this opt-out thing, and told them so.
I don't see the logic in removing yourself from the donor list because of a campaign to make it the default position.
I think most people wouldn't have a problem donating their organs to save others should the worse happen.
But many people don't bother getting a card or letting others know how they feel about it.
This way, if you dont want to be a donor, you're free to opt out. More people's lives will be improved or saved because of it.
Which does it take more time to do.
Opt out, or opt in?
They can take what they want when I'm done using it.
I'd wager a majority of people would be in favour of donating their organs but they never go to the trouble of registering.
I know I didn't until I saw Brolly on the Late Late.
The idea that this is some sort of authoritarian tissue harvesting scheme is ridiculous.
We've a respectable rate at the moment but we're 10 donors per million behind Spain who have the system Brolly proposes.
I'll know sweet FA about it when it happens but I'd like to think it would be a great comfort to my family that although I was gone, I lived ion by enriching the lives of some very ill people.
As Brolly said it's a gift that has to be freely given.
If you don't like the idea, take two minutes to opt out and let your family know your wishes.
Is that a lot to ask?
Apathy is the biggest barrier to increasing the donation rate.
Most people don't die in circumstances that are conducive to donation so we need to make sure we get as many as possible on the register.
If they take my kidneys, heart, lungs, liver (good luck to them), cornea or pancreas I won't be here to be annoyed about it. Get on with it, what's the problem?
Quote from: Lecale2 on November 18, 2013, 08:54:02 PM
If they take my kidneys, heart, lungs, liver (good luck to them), cornea or pancreas I won't be here to be annoyed about it. Get on with it, what's the problem?
Sums it up perfectly?
Programme on now, still time to catch on on RTÉ+1, although there isn't anything notable so far.
Just joined the Organ Donation Register on foot of watching that programme tonight. Often thought about it but tonight got the wee push to actually do it. Brolly can be a bit of a bollix but he's to be admired for his work; he walks the walk.
Quote from: armaghniac on November 18, 2013, 10:07:09 PM
Programme on now, still time to catch on on RTÉ+1, although there isn't anything notable so far.
What were you expecting, car chases and explosions?
Quote from: BennyCake on November 18, 2013, 08:13:19 PM
As likeable a fella as Brolly is, and I admire him for donating a kidney, I think it's totally wrong about this "opt-out" scheme. It should be up to the person themselves whether they want to be on the donor list or not. The publicity of Joe's donation would have seen a big rise on the number of people becoming donors anyway, but there was no need to go as far with this opt-out thing. Advertise the donor register, get people like Brolly to educate people on becoming one, but don't force them to be one.
I registered to become a donor when I just left school, because it was something I wanted to do. I was on the donor list for many years, until a few months ago, when I phoned and asked for my name to be removed. The reason was because I didn't like where they were going with this opt-out thing, and told them so.
Of course your entitled to do as you wish but I can't believe you actually went and did the opt out over that.
Quote from: whitey on November 18, 2013, 07:43:27 PM
after reading that interview I can honestly say that Joe Brolly has some type of borderline personality disorder. Im not criticizing him, its just an observation.
can you expand on your reasons?
Quote from: BennyCake on November 18, 2013, 08:13:19 PM
As likeable a fella as Brolly is, and I admire him for donating a kidney, I think it's totally wrong about this "opt-out" scheme. It should be up to the person themselves whether they want to be on the donor list or not. The publicity of Joe's donation would have seen a big rise on the number of people becoming donors anyway, but there was no need to go as far with this opt-out thing. Advertise the donor register, get people like Brolly to educate people on becoming one, but don't force them to be one.
I registered to become a donor when I just left school, because it was something I wanted to do. I was on the donor list for many years, until a few months ago, when I phoned and asked for my name to be removed. The reason was because I didn't like where they were going with this opt-out thing, and told them so.
Did you think aliens or the government would harvest your organs?
Quote from: Orchardman on November 18, 2013, 11:38:45 PM
Quote from: whitey on November 18, 2013, 07:43:27 PM
after reading that interview I can honestly say that Joe Brolly has some type of borderline personality disorder. Im not criticizing him, its just an observation.
can you expand on your reasons?
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/borderline-personality-disorder/index.shtml
He doesnt have all the symptoms, but he definitely has some, and it actually explains a lot
Quote from: Orchardman on November 18, 2013, 11:38:01 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 18, 2013, 08:13:19 PM
As likeable a fella as Brolly is, and I admire him for donating a kidney, I think it's totally wrong about this "opt-out" scheme. It should be up to the person themselves whether they want to be on the donor list or not. The publicity of Joe's donation would have seen a big rise on the number of people becoming donors anyway, but there was no need to go as far with this opt-out thing. Advertise the donor register, get people like Brolly to educate people on becoming one, but don't force them to be one.
I registered to become a donor when I just left school, because it was something I wanted to do. I was on the donor list for many years, until a few months ago, when I phoned and asked for my name to be removed. The reason was because I didn't like where they were going with this opt-out thing, and told them so.
Of course your entitled to do as you wish but I can't believe you actually went and did the opt out over that.
This is people's body parts we're talking about here. Some people are against organ donation for various reasons. I just think nobody has the right to tell me, or anyone else that you're included on the donor list without your consent. By all means, advertise the donor register, get famous names like Brolly to promote it, but this "you're in till you opt out" is just wrong. I feel strongly about it, hence why I took my name off the list.
It's dead peoples body parts, why anyone would want to keep their organs rather than donate them is beyond me. When you die, your organs could either save the lives of people, including children, or become maggot food. There isn't a choice as far as I can see.
Quote from: BennyCake on November 19, 2013, 01:10:01 AM
Quote from: Orchardman on November 18, 2013, 11:38:01 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 18, 2013, 08:13:19 PM
As likeable a fella as Brolly is, and I admire him for donating a kidney, I think it's totally wrong about this "opt-out" scheme. It should be up to the person themselves whether they want to be on the donor list or not. The publicity of Joe's donation would have seen a big rise on the number of people becoming donors anyway, but there was no need to go as far with this opt-out thing. Advertise the donor register, get people like Brolly to educate people on becoming one, but don't force them to be one.
I registered to become a donor when I just left school, because it was something I wanted to do. I was on the donor list for many years, until a few months ago, when I phoned and asked for my name to be removed. The reason was because I didn't like where they were going with this opt-out thing, and told them so.
Of course your entitled to do as you wish but I can't believe you actually went and did the opt out over that.
This is people's body parts we're talking about here. Some people are against organ donation for various reasons. I just think nobody has the right to tell me, or anyone else that you're included on the donor list without your consent. By all means, advertise the donor register, get famous names like Brolly to promote it, but this "you're in till you opt out" is just wrong. I feel strongly about it, hence why I took my name off the list.
So you would rather organs decomposed 6 feet under or get burned than help another human being live?
How anyone is against the Opt-out scheme is baffling? It doesn't remove your choice, but it will increase the number of donors simply because, as mentioned on here, most people would be willing to donate but never get around to actually signing up. With the method Brolly is proposing, there will be more organs available for those who need them as well as allowing people who don;t want to donate to either opt-out or tell their family of their wishes. No brainer.
Quote from: Zulu on November 19, 2013, 07:40:15 AM
It's dead peoples body parts, why anyone would want to keep their organs rather than donate them is beyond me. When you die, your organs could either save the lives of people, including children, or become maggot food. There isn't a choice as far as I can see.
Its not a simple as you are making out.
My father died when he was 42, I was 17 and the oldest of 5 children (the youngest was 1). He was on a life support machine in the hospital when we where told he had no chance and asked would we be intrested in donating his organs. For a number of reasons the decision was left to me and I agreed that it would be a comfort to know that in his death that Daddy had helped save the lives of other people. It was then explained to me that the Doctors would have to keep him on the life support machine for another 4/5 days until everything was in place to carry out the procedures. At that stage I just wanted him home and told the doctors that if they could do it that day I would agree but if not I wanted him home now. The Doctors tried to talk to me and tell me how this decision could impact other peoples lives but neither my family or I could have coped with the wait. I often think about the decision I made and I know it was selfish but i believe it was the right decision in the circumstances.
I registered shortly after this as a organ donor so that no one ever is put in position I found myself in if anything ever happens me.
Quote from: BennyCake on November 18, 2013, 08:13:19 PM
As likeable a fella as Brolly is, and I admire him for donating a kidney, I think it's totally wrong about this "opt-out" scheme. It should be up to the person themselves whether they want to be on the donor list or not. The publicity of Joe's donation would have seen a big rise on the number of people becoming donors anyway, but there was no need to go as far with this opt-out thing. Advertise the donor register, get people like Brolly to educate people on becoming one, but don't force them to be one.
I registered to become a donor when I just left school, because it was something I wanted to do. I was on the donor list for many years, until a few months ago, when I phoned and asked for my name to be removed. The reason was because I didn't like where they were going with this opt-out thing, and told them so.
So are you saying people should have a choice and that you made a choice?
Quote from: Keepthefaith93 on November 19, 2013, 11:08:08 AM
Quote from: Zulu on November 19, 2013, 07:40:15 AM
It's dead peoples body parts, why anyone would want to keep their organs rather than donate them is beyond me. When you die, your organs could either save the lives of people, including children, or become maggot food. There isn't a choice as far as I can see.
Its not a simple as you are making out.
My father died when he was 42, I was 17 and the oldest of 5 children (the youngest was 1). He was on a life support machine in the hospital when we where told he had no chance and asked would we be intrested in donating his organs. For a number of reasons the decision was left to me and I agreed that it would be a comfort to know that in his death that Daddy had helped save the lives of other people. It was then explained to me that the Doctors would have to keep him on the life support machine for another 4/5 days until everything was in place to carry out the procedures. At that stage I just wanted him home and told the doctors that if they could do it that day I would agree but if not I wanted him home now. The Doctors tried to talk to me and tell me how this decision could impact other peoples lives but neither my family or I could have coped with the wait. I often think about the decision I made and I know it was selfish but i believe it was the right decision in the circumstances.
I registered shortly after this as a organ donor so that no one ever is put in position I found myself in if anything ever happens me.
Tough thing to have to do. Under the new system being proposed you would still have the right to make that decision.
I don't really see any down sides to the soft opt in - the final decision always falls to the family. How Bennycake can go from being in favour of organ donation to against as a result of this campaign amazes me. The family (and individual) always have the right to say no (as Bennycake has done), the only real difference is that donation will always have be discussed due to the change in policy. My understanding is that previously it may not always have been brought up, depending on the circumstances/doctor etc - if the new proposals are passed it must be discussed. This to me is the difference. Brolly and co never refer to it as presumed consent or opt out, always as soft opt in. Family consent is not presumed. If you really do not want your organs donated then all you have to do is make sure and tell your family - you do not even have to "opt out".
I watched the show last night and was very impressed with Joe and how he had such a positive impact on Shane Finnegan & his wife. You could see how Joe's never admit defeat attitude has really rubbed off on Shane & his family.
So I was really surprised and how the chairman of the kidney assoc (or whatever his title was) and how all of a sudden they hit a real road block, unlike they had up North.
The main thing Joe argued was that the family still have the final say and so even if we are in an opt-out scenario, the family can still say No if they want to. No pressure on them. Granted the sad story below is indeed traumatic and placed you in an awful scenario which I totally empathize with.
However, to me the majority of us probably would be cool with giving up our organs to save others but just don't want to face up to the decision or never get off our asses to make it happen.
This is why I find Bennycake's decision as just as peculiar as the chairman of the kidney assoc.
You more or less said that you first took the bother to opt in as you wanted to make a difference and save someone's life. This was obviously very important to you which has to be commended. However, to then change your mind and choose NOT to save someone's life JUST because you feel the opt-out option is being pushed too hard or being IMPOSED on people.
Surely saving lives is more important that worrying about how is bullying their way into getting this new system in place.
Joe mentioned MD Macauley's dad last night. I knew his dad very well and he would have been so so proud to be alive today to see his son win player of the year and win another Sam. However, his wait for a new lung never materialised, probably just because too many of us never bother to getting around to opting-in. MD spent many night in the hospital with his dad listening to him gasping for air.
We're talking about saving people's lives here rather than letting your vital organs waste away as Zulu put it. You could see last night how much joy & positivity came from the act of giving from Joe to Shane. Whilst it was sad that it failed, can you imagine how many more organs would be available if all those who die each day were opted-in. Many more loved ones' lives would be saved.
Did you see the smile of the face of the man & his wife from Mayo was it who got the call to come in. He couldn't wait to find the bed and get it done. He looked like he'd won the lotto. He had a second chance at life.
I've often slated Joe and am sure I will in the future. He annoys me in loads of ways and did again this year in his rants about Tyrone & Sean Cavanagh. He loves the limelight and he does show signs of bi-polar condition. There is one thing I have to admire about the man though. He gets things done. He walks the walk. He probably drives his wife mad and his family & friends too but he is a passionate man who has decided to do something worth while with his life and make a difference in this world.
Maybe I don't have all the facts but I was really annoyed at that chairman who was putting up the obstacles to stop the opt-in scheme. You would imagine a chairman of such an organisation would be gung-ho to get as many organ donations as possible and so reduce waiting times and so save lives. How can anything be more important than that?
There is the option for the person themselves to opt out.
There is the option of the spouse & family to opt out when the person dies.
The main benefit here is that now the person has died and never got round to choosing to be a donor, now he/she can be and so if the family don't oppose it then another life could be saved.
Why is that such a bad thing BennyCake? Nobody will think any worse of you if you say no at that stage.
Quote from: Zulu on November 19, 2013, 07:40:15 AM
It's dead peoples body parts, why anyone would want to keep their organs rather than donate them is beyond me. When you die, your organs could either save the lives of people, including children, or become maggot food. There isn't a choice as far as I can see.
I agree lads, fair play to Brolly. It is a great cause and he has my full support.
Its the bit above i was referring to.
How do you opt in? Lazy question I know..
http://www.organdonation.ie/donate.html
Quote from: Fuzzman on November 19, 2013, 11:43:40 AM
Maybe I don't have all the facts but I was really annoyed at that chairman who was putting up the obstacles to stop the opt-in scheme. You would imagine a chairman of such an organisation would be gung-ho to get as many organ donations as possible and so reduce waiting times and so save lives. How can anything be more important than that?
I got the impression, after seeing how dismissive he was of the system Joe & Co. are proposing, that he didn't like these johnny-come-latelys arriving on the scene and having more of an impact on the public consciousness in a few months than he's had in his whole time as CEO of the Irish Kidney association.
His viewpoint certainly seemed to be at odds with all the other stakeholders.
Yeah I think you're tight Jinxy or there is some sort of jealousy there.
Maybe he just doesn't like change but I hope he gets bombarded by disgruntled assoc members asking why is he putting up obstacles to getting shorter waiting lists.
Brolly does have the usual Ulster brashness that many Southerners dislike. I liked the wee bit of banter in the program between Joe & Michael Lyster. Joe really should tone down his language though. It's not that hard to stop the F-ing & blinding for a TVv show.
I was amazed how toned down he was for meeting the first & deputy ministers. None of the usual
HOWL ON PETER HOWL ON!!!
Quote from: hardstation on November 19, 2013, 11:39:27 AM
BennyCake - have I got this right?
You wanted to be a donor so you signed up for it. You now don't want to be a donor because they're trying to make everyone be a donor unless they opt out?
WTF?
It's like the group isn't elite enough for you anymore. Weird.
I became a donor years ago. I still want to be a donor, but I am against this opt-out scheme, so I removed my name. Is that so terrible?
Suddenly everyone is experts pontificating on donor cards, when most of you for years never got off your asses to opt-in. Now suddenly, I'm the bad guy for opting out? What if any of you, had died before Brolly's donation, wouldn't your organs have been wasted? Yes, there's probably more of you now become donors since then, but where were you pre-Brolly?
Quote from: BennyCake on November 19, 2013, 12:23:51 PM
Quote from: hardstation on November 19, 2013, 11:39:27 AM
BennyCake - have I got this right?
You wanted to be a donor so you signed up for it. You now don't want to be a donor because they're trying to make everyone be a donor unless they opt out?
WTF?
It's like the group isn't elite enough for you anymore. Weird.
I became a donor years ago. I still want to be a donor, but I am against this opt-out scheme, so I removed my name. Is that so terrible?
Suddenly everyone is experts pontificating on donor cards, when most of you for years never got off your asses to opt-in. Now suddenly, I'm the bad guy for opting out? What if any of you, had died before Brolly's donation, wouldn't your organs have been wasted? Yes, there's probably more of you now become donors since then, but where were you pre-Brolly?
It is all about choice, but I still do not understand your reasons for removing your name from the list, after all it is easy enough to opt out.
Now people have to "get off their asses" to opt out.....it is a no brainer.
I was on the list but unfortunately health reasons mean my organs would be useless to anyone.
I carry an organ donor card but I left it completely blank - it gives me comfort to know that when I'm dead and buried, my organ donor card can be reused by others.
Benny why are you so against the opt-in scheme?
Can you not see how it will provide much more organs and so reduce waiting times and so save lives?
You don't even have to ring up and tell them you want to opt out. You can just tell your family to tell them when you die.
Quote from: BennyCake on November 19, 2013, 12:23:51 PM
Quote from: hardstation on November 19, 2013, 11:39:27 AM
BennyCake - have I got this right?
You wanted to be a donor so you signed up for it. You now don't want to be a donor because they're trying to make everyone be a donor unless they opt out?
WTF?
It's like the group isn't elite enough for you anymore. Weird.
I became a donor years ago. I still want to be a donor, but I am against this opt-out scheme, so I removed my name. Is that so terrible?
Suddenly everyone is experts pontificating on donor cards, when most of you for years never got off your asses to opt-in. Now suddenly, I'm the bad guy for opting out? What if any of you, had died before Brolly's donation, wouldn't your organs have been wasted? Yes, there's probably more of you now become donors since then, but where were you pre-Brolly?
Well I was already carrying a donor card, so I suppose I did get off my ass. It just seems that you're reasons for possibly denying people your organs (should the circumstances arise) is some sort of protest at organ-donating becoming the norm...
Quote from: BennyCake on November 19, 2013, 12:23:51 PM
Quote from: hardstation on November 19, 2013, 11:39:27 AM
BennyCake - have I got this right?
You wanted to be a donor so you signed up for it. You now don't want to be a donor because they're trying to make everyone be a donor unless they opt out?
WTF?
It's like the group isn't elite enough for you anymore. Weird.
I became a donor years ago. I still want to be a donor, but I am against this opt-out scheme, so I removed my name. Is that so terrible?
Suddenly everyone is experts pontificating on donor cards, when most of you for years never got off your asses to opt-in. Now suddenly, I'm the bad guy for opting out? What if any of you, had died before Brolly's donation, wouldn't your organs have been wasted? Yes, there's probably more of you now become donors since then, but where were you pre-Brolly?
This is definitely starting to sound like an 'I was donating my organs before it was cool' type of argument. :)
Quote from: BennyCake on November 19, 2013, 12:23:51 PM
Quote from: hardstation on November 19, 2013, 11:39:27 AM
BennyCake - have I got this right?
You wanted to be a donor so you signed up for it. You now don't want to be a donor because they're trying to make everyone be a donor unless they opt out?
WTF?
It's like the group isn't elite enough for you anymore. Weird.
I became a donor years ago. I still want to be a donor, but I am against this opt-out scheme, so I removed my name. Is that so terrible?
Suddenly everyone is experts pontificating on donor cards, when most of you for years never got off your asses to opt-in. Now suddenly, I'm the bad guy for opting out? What if any of you, had died before Brolly's donation, wouldn't your organs have been wasted? Yes, there's probably more of you now become donors since then, but where were you pre-Brolly?
What a statement, surely the whole point is to raise public awareness.
Quote from: Fuzzman on November 19, 2013, 12:39:17 PM
Benny why are you so against the opt-in scheme?
Can you not see how it will provide much more organs and so reduce waiting times and so save lives?
You don't even have to ring up and tell them you want to opt out. You can just tell your family to tell them when you die.
I'm aware more organs become available because of this. But like someone said earlier, his father would have to have been kept on life support for longer just to get his organs. It would've been tough for the fanily to do so.
If you're automatically opted in, and you die, then does your family really know your intentions? Maybe someone wasn't aware they were on the donor list, and their organs are taken anyway. Maybe they were against organ donation in the first place? OK, people know the score at the minute, but what about a few years away, when the hype has died down, and the opt-out thing is rarely mentioned?
I just think at least if someone has gone to the bother of registering to become a donor, then that is what they really wanted. This situation where the family can say no upon their death is putting unnecessary strain on an already grieving family.
I'd prefer to see the organ donation advertised properly. Opt in, you could save a life. Don't opt in, you're not a donor. Simple.
You're seriously underestimating how lazy but well-intentioned people can be Benny.
Quote from: BennyCake on November 19, 2013, 02:02:25 PM
Quote from: Fuzzman on November 19, 2013, 12:39:17 PM
Benny why are you so against the opt-in scheme?
Can you not see how it will provide much more organs and so reduce waiting times and so save lives?
You don't even have to ring up and tell them you want to opt out. You can just tell your family to tell them when you die.
I'm aware more organs become available because of this. But like someone said earlier, his father would have to have been kept on life support for longer just to get his organs. It would've been tough for the fanily to do so.
If you're automatically opted in, and you die, then does your family really know your intentions? Maybe someone wasn't aware they were on the donor list, and their organs are taken anyway. Maybe they were against organ donation in the first place? OK, people know the score at the minute, but what about a few years away, when the hype has died down, and the opt-out thing is rarely mentioned?
I just think at least if someone has gone to the bother of registering to become a donor, then that is what they really wanted. This situation where the family can say no upon their death is putting unnecessary strain on an already grieving family.
I'd prefer to see the organ donation advertised properly. Opt in, you could save a life. Don't opt in, you're not a donor. Simple.
Were you a suspect in the Bambi assassination?
Quote from: BennyCake on November 19, 2013, 02:02:25 PM
Quote from: Fuzzman on November 19, 2013, 12:39:17 PM
Benny why are you so against the opt-in scheme?
Can you not see how it will provide much more organs and so reduce waiting times and so save lives?
You don't even have to ring up and tell them you want to opt out. You can just tell your family to tell them when you die.
I'm aware more organs become available because of this. But like someone said earlier, his father would have to have been kept on life support for longer just to get his organs. It would've been tough for the fanily to do so.
If you're automatically opted in, and you die, then does your family really know your intentions? Maybe someone wasn't aware they were on the donor list, and their organs are taken anyway. Maybe they were against organ donation in the first place? OK, people know the score at the minute, but what about a few years away, when the hype has died down, and the opt-out thing is rarely mentioned?
I just think at least if someone has gone to the bother of registering to become a donor, then that is what they really wanted. This situation where the family can say no upon their death is putting unnecessary strain on an already grieving family.
I'd prefer to see the organ donation advertised properly. Opt in, you could save a life. Don't opt in, you're not a donor. Simple.
from what I understand at the minute the family still get the final say whether your on the register or not, is this wrong?
Benny are you also saying that this new system would take away some of the feel good factor you get when you sign up to donate your organs. You know when you pass on you will possibly save another person's life.
Whereas with the opt-in system everybody is in the same boat and so it's no longer such a big deal.
Anyone know how they go about testing to see if your organs can be used or not?
If we're all opted in then how do they decide who they should operate on to remove their organs and who do they leave?
What I mean is that I presume it's a lot easier now with such small numbers being donors but what if the number of donors is greater than those on waiting lists?
I suppose, if you're an organ donor in the current system it feels like an altruistic gesture.
With the proposed system, you kind of lose that.
Which is completely irrelevant as far as I'm concerned anyway.
Getting the donation rate as high as possible is all that matters.
I don't really know what to make of Joe, born in Derry, schooled in Armagh and subjected to Tyrone songs as a kid, no wonder he's mixed up.
Colleged in Dublin and now lives and works in Belfast.
I'd say he's a well rounded chappie.
Quote from: Jinxy on November 19, 2013, 03:36:51 PM
I suppose, if you're an organ donor in the current system it feels like an altruistic gesture.
With the proposed system, you kind of lose that.
Which is completely irrelevant as far as I'm concerned anyway.
Getting the donation rate as high as possible is all that matters.
Deciding to be an organ donor, and then changing your mind means you were never an organ donor.
Quote from: Fuzzman on November 19, 2013, 03:12:59 PM
Benny are you also saying that this new system would take away some of the feel good factor you get when you sign up to donate your organs. You know when you pass on you will possibly save another person's life.
Whereas with the opt-in system everybody is in the same boat and so it's no longer such a big deal.
It's nothing to do with feeling good about being a donor, or the removal of it with the proposed opt-out scheme.
There are people who are against blood transfusion. Remember the woman who died because she refused a transfusion as it was against her beliefs. There are people against organ transplants for the same reasons, so why should the government be making decisions about their bodies on their behalf? I'm sure most of us thought it was strange that she didn't get a transfusion that would have saved her life. And I'm sure most of us would react the same way if someone refused an organ transplant too. But people have a right to make that decision for themselves. And people should have the right to make the decision whether they want to be on a donor list too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_4AOpcBwZ4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_4AOpcBwZ4)
Is that Brolly at the end of the new Tesco ad?
Quote from: BennyCake on November 19, 2013, 06:51:05 PM
Quote from: Fuzzman on November 19, 2013, 03:12:59 PM
Benny are you also saying that this new system would take away some of the feel good factor you get when you sign up to donate your organs. You know when you pass on you will possibly save another person's life.
Whereas with the opt-in system everybody is in the same boat and so it's no longer such a big deal.
It's nothing to do with feeling good about being a donor, or the removal of it with the proposed opt-out scheme.
There are people who are against blood transfusion. Remember the woman who died because she refused a transfusion as it was against her beliefs. There are people against organ transplants for the same reasons, so why should the government be making decisions about their bodies on their behalf? I'm sure most of us thought it was strange that she didn't get a transfusion that would have saved her life. And I'm sure most of us would react the same way if someone refused an organ transplant too. But people have a right to make that decision for themselves. And people should have the right to make the decision whether they want to be on a donor list too.
And they would have that right as far as I know - all they have to do is opt-out themselves, or let their family know they don't wish to donate their organs.
If this becomes law does it mean that from the moment you're born you don't own your own organs unless you do something about it?
Quote from: ONeill on November 19, 2013, 10:48:15 PM
If this becomes law does it mean that from the moment you're born you don't own your own organs unless you do something about it?
You do own them, until you die.
QuoteYou do own them, until you die.
This is a good analogy. If you don't make a will then a standard formula is used for the disposal of your property, but you can make a will and have other instructions implemented. Likewise with opt out.
Mmmm, you're not convincing me here.
So, the state owns my organs. When I die, my organs can be used to save the life of mass-murderer, paedophile....without my input (as I'm dead)?
Surely there's an ethical movement here from donating organs to taking them...?
I'm only asking questions to see how people view the shift here in state power. I know the stock answer is...sure you're dead.
They drain your blood during the embalming process.
Without even asking for permission!
There should be a balanced ethical debate on this issue. I don't think it's black and white.
I read somewhere else (Telegraph) of someone who was a donor for 20 years but will cease if an opt-out comes into force simply because they feel they have the right to decide what happens to their body without being told to opt-out. Some may say that's a bit precious but some do feel that way.
On the other hand people say you cannot 'steal' from the dead as you are now dead as a living, thinking entity.
For the very religious, is there another issue here?
Finally, if the state said that when you die they will seize your assets and donate every penny to worthy causes unless you opt out, would you? If so, why?
QuoteFinally, if the state said that when you die they will seize your assets and donate every penny to worthy causes unless you opt out, would you? If so, why?
That's not even close to being similar to what's being discussed.
QuoteI read somewhere else (Telegraph) of someone who was a donor for 20 years but will cease if an opt-out comes into force simply because they feel they have the right to decide what happens to their body without being told to opt-out. Some may say that's a bit precious but some do feel that way.
As is their right but I wouldn't agree with them.
QuoteOn the other hand people say you cannot 'steal' from the dead as you are now dead as a living, thinking entity.
For the very religious, is there another issue here?
Maybe, but they can opt out.
Quote from: Zulu on November 20, 2013, 01:00:15 AM
QuoteFinally, if the state said that when you die they will seize your assets and donate every penny to worthy causes unless you opt out, would you? If so, why?
That's not even close to being similar to what's being discussed.
I'm not trying to say it is.....not everything has to be an argument. Just interested in people's reasons for not opting in to this.
Quote from: BennyCake on November 19, 2013, 06:51:05 PM
Quote from: Fuzzman on November 19, 2013, 03:12:59 PM
Benny are you also saying that this new system would take away some of the feel good factor you get when you sign up to donate your organs. You know when you pass on you will possibly save another person's life.
Whereas with the opt-in system everybody is in the same boat and so it's no longer such a big deal.
It's nothing to do with feeling good about being a donor, or the removal of it with the proposed opt-out scheme.
There are people who are against blood transfusion. Remember the woman who died because she refused a transfusion as it was against her beliefs. There are people against organ transplants for the same reasons, so why should the government be making decisions about their bodies on their behalf? I'm sure most of us thought it was strange that she didn't get a transfusion that would have saved her life. And I'm sure most of us would react the same way if someone refused an organ transplant too. But people have a right to make that decision for themselves. And people should have the right to make the decision whether they want to be on a donor list too.
But how are the government making decisions on peoples behalf? Everyone still has the choice if they want to be donors or not.
Probably the wrong thread, but Joe was speaking at the coaching conference in Croke park this weekend. Like him or loathe him, he's not behind the door and isn't afraid to express an opinion -
The controversial pundit and former All-Ireland medal winner said the mentality to win by whatever means possible has rendered the game pointless, adding it is no longer worthwhile to teach juvenile players the basic skills of Gaelic football as they are permitted from expressing themselves by the emergence of cynical fouling.
Brolly, addressing the GAA Games Development Conference at Croke Park on Saturday, believes the position of U10 manager is the most important in GAA circles, calling on coaches to educate young players on the purity of the game and to advocate the skills displayed by both Kerry and Dublin in last year's classic All-Ireland SFC semi-final.
"The win at all costs mentality, and I have been involved at underage in our club for the past eight years, renders the game pointless," he fumed.
"One of your good lads is going through, he is dragged down. We tell a young lad to work on his bad foot so when he gets close to goal he has increased options, what's the point?
"The win at all costs mentality is pointless and the classic example is the 2011 All-Ireland semi-final between Dublin and Donegal. That day when 15 jerseys laboured soullessly, pulling down, pulling down, feigning injury.
"The crowd in the field of dreams booing, slow clapping and groaning at this travesty that the game was turning into. Jim McGuinness did us a favour. He proved that winning at all costs is to be avoided at all costs.
"Ciarán McKeever, the best corner-back I ever saw play football, said to me recently 'The problem is no one is actually learning the art of football any more'. They are not learning because they don't have to. The corner-forward is back with the wing-back helping him in every game'."
Pointing to Tyrone's approach in last summer's championship, Brolly said midfielder Seán Cavanagh was talking "through his arse" when commenting that such a style was necessary in a results driven business.
"We fall into the trap of sometimes believing that myth. The reason we fall into it is understandable. We think that winning is everything because we confuse it with the entirely healthy idea that the purpose of games is to try to win. If you win dishonourably, your own group will celebrate but no one else cares. The point of the game is boys and girls fulfilling themselves, throwing themselves into games, seeing where that takes them, taking risks, enjoying the skills of the game, expressing themselves. Is Joe Canning a loser because he hasn't won an All-Ireland? It is totally ridiculous nonsense. This philosophy is the main attraction in the GAA. Losing is worthless and undeserving of our respect. It is of course a totally dishonourable creed.
"Enda Gormley, my good friend and an absolutely obsessed coach, was on a fact-finding mission a couple of years ago. He went to Kerry to see how they do business down there. He went with Ger Lynch who was taking the U12's in Valentia Island. Enda said it was amazing. He said the first five minutes they were working on the flick pick-up, with both feet I might add. Ger Lynch said to him: 'While ye are doing the blanket defence up north we are doing the flick pick-up'. Who do you think is enjoying it more?"
Brolly claimed attendances at adult games in Derry have fallen because of blanket defences, cynical fouling and a general unwillingness amongst teams to adopt an open, free-flowing approach.
Fed-up with such negativity, spectators, he said, had turned to underage matches to receive value for money.
Moreover, he backed the new rules introduced by the FRC and is optimistic the game can be restored to its former glory.
"The FRC is serving to rid the game of cynical fouling and its Siamese twin — winning at all costs. We know it is a damaging ethos. It is not good. Nobody likes it. Gaelic football tactics seem to have been set in stone. Build up a lead, then hold it over the last 15 minutes. Pull the man down, all the things we have seen. Donegal were good at it. Tyrone were great at it. Mayo, the first two years under James Horan, did it.
"Jim Gavin said publicly last year and this is so important to all coaches that such a style he wouldn't allow. It would be man-on-man, sink or swim.
"It empowers players to look after themselves. They are not looking for others to help them. They are not looking for blanket defenders.
"The aim of these new rules is to free the game up so that the competitive spirit will work and games will be beautiful again, the way we need them to be."
© Irish Examiner Ltd. All rights reserved
Horseshit in almost every line of that from Joe
Jim Gavin me arse.....obviously Joe didnt watch the last 10 mins of the AIF (and I would have expected and encouraged Mayo to do the same if they were protecting a lead)
Quote from: orangeman on January 13, 2014, 12:42:44 AM
Probably the wrong thread, but Joe was speaking at the coaching conference in Croke park this weekend. Like him or loathe him, he's not behind the door and isn't afraid to express an opinion -
The controversial pundit and former All-Ireland medal winner said the mentality to win by whatever means possible has rendered the game pointless, adding it is no longer worthwhile to teach juvenile players the basic skills of Gaelic football as they are permitted from expressing themselves by the emergence of cynical fouling.
Brolly, addressing the GAA Games Development Conference at Croke Park on Saturday, believes the position of U10 manager is the most important in GAA circles, calling on coaches to educate young players on the purity of the game and to advocate the skills displayed by both Kerry and Dublin in last year's classic All-Ireland SFC semi-final.
"The win at all costs mentality, and I have been involved at underage in our club for the past eight years, renders the game pointless," he fumed.
"One of your good lads is going through, he is dragged down. We tell a young lad to work on his bad foot so when he gets close to goal he has increased options, what's the point?
"The win at all costs mentality is pointless and the classic example is the 2011 All-Ireland semi-final between Dublin and Donegal. That day when 15 jerseys laboured soullessly, pulling down, pulling down, feigning injury.
"The crowd in the field of dreams booing, slow clapping and groaning at this travesty that the game was turning into. Jim McGuinness did us a favour. He proved that winning at all costs is to be avoided at all costs.
"Ciarán McKeever, the best corner-back I ever saw play football, said to me recently 'The problem is no one is actually learning the art of football any more'. They are not learning because they don't have to. The corner-forward is back with the wing-back helping him in every game'."
Pointing to Tyrone's approach in last summer's championship, Brolly said midfielder Seán Cavanagh was talking "through his arse" when commenting that such a style was necessary in a results driven business.
"We fall into the trap of sometimes believing that myth. The reason we fall into it is understandable. We think that winning is everything because we confuse it with the entirely healthy idea that the purpose of games is to try to win. If you win dishonourably, your own group will celebrate but no one else cares. The point of the game is boys and girls fulfilling themselves, throwing themselves into games, seeing where that takes them, taking risks, enjoying the skills of the game, expressing themselves. Is Joe Canning a loser because he hasn't won an All-Ireland? It is totally ridiculous nonsense. This philosophy is the main attraction in the GAA. Losing is worthless and undeserving of our respect. It is of course a totally dishonourable creed.
"Enda Gormley, my good friend and an absolutely obsessed coach, was on a fact-finding mission a couple of years ago. He went to Kerry to see how they do business down there. He went with Ger Lynch who was taking the U12's in Valentia Island. Enda said it was amazing. He said the first five minutes they were working on the flick pick-up, with both feet I might add. Ger Lynch said to him: 'While ye are doing the blanket defence up north we are doing the flick pick-up'. Who do you think is enjoying it more?"
Brolly claimed attendances at adult games in Derry have fallen because of blanket defences, cynical fouling and a general unwillingness amongst teams to adopt an open, free-flowing approach.
Fed-up with such negativity, spectators, he said, had turned to underage matches to receive value for money.
Moreover, he backed the new rules introduced by the FRC and is optimistic the game can be restored to its former glory.
"The FRC is serving to rid the game of cynical fouling and its Siamese twin — winning at all costs. We know it is a damaging ethos. It is not good. Nobody likes it. Gaelic football tactics seem to have been set in stone. Build up a lead, then hold it over the last 15 minutes. Pull the man down, all the things we have seen. Donegal were good at it. Tyrone were great at it. Mayo, the first two years under James Horan, did it.
"Jim Gavin said publicly last year and this is so important to all coaches that such a style he wouldn't allow. It would be man-on-man, sink or swim.
"It empowers players to look after themselves. They are not looking for others to help them. They are not looking for blanket defenders.
"The aim of these new rules is to free the game up so that the competitive spirit will work and games will be beautiful again, the way we need them to be."
© Irish Examiner Ltd. All rights reserved
Easy to say when you have an All Ireland medal, bet Joe Canning would carry the head of his own Mrs with a hurl if it would get him an all Ireland medal. Joe is full of shite as usual he plays to whatever crowd he is spouting too.
I don't often agree with Joe but most of that article was on the money. Though it will take radical change to make intercounty football a "beautiful game" again. Two things I would do is decrease the amount of subs back to three and make it a 13 a side game. Those two changes would make it a hell of a lot harder for managers and players to employ and implement negative tactics.
Quote from: OakleafCounty on January 13, 2014, 09:49:19 AM
I don't often agree with Joe but most of that article was on the money. Though it will take radical change to make intercounty football a "beautiful game" again. Two things I would do is decrease the amount of subs back to three and make it a 13 a side game. Those two changes would make it a hell of a lot harder for managers and players to employ and implement negative tactics.
So 16 players , at max; gets a game.............
Quote from: OakleafCounty on January 13, 2014, 09:49:19 AM
I don't often agree with Joe but most of that article was on the money. Though it will take radical change to make intercounty football a "beautiful game" again. Two things I would do is decrease the amount of subs back to three and make it a 13 a side game. Those two changes would make it a hell of a lot harder for managers and players to employ and implement negative tactics.
Throw in a few black cards and we can play 9 a side. Maybe we should scrap gaelic football altogether and come up with a different game that makes everyone happy.
Joe is really good in his analysis at creating dumbed down stereotypes - So at U10, Kerry coach flicking the ball up while in Ulster we are coaching the blanket defence, pure nonsense! Any analysis by Joe is to be taken with a huge pinch of salt.
Joe was a corner forward who loved taking his man on and scoring nice points & goals.
Like most forwards his main focus is on getting reward for skill and when you beat a man then you shouldn't be pulled down just as you're about to shoot.
As well as this, he's now at the stage where he's teaching his kids the game and so he wants to see it as pure as possible. No cheating or foul play but reward for the best players. I can see his point and in a way I agree with him but as someone said this is the ideal scenario. In Ulster our game has always been that bit tougher than down the country and in the past 10 years with more colleges doing sports degrees there has been more focus on the football science and how can you improve your team to win outside of raw skill. This has made our senior county teams much more focused on fitness, strength and tactics and so we saw Donegal bring all that to a whole new level with Tyrone & Armagh doing similar in the 2000's.
Maybe its cos it's far away but n Ulster we often tended to think Kerry football back in the 70's & 80's was so pure and they love to paint that image of it themselves. However if you ask Cork or the Dubs during those decades and you'll get a very painted picture. Kerry have shown over the years they can play both nice attacking football but they can also mix it with the cynical stuff as well. Anyone who has not witnessed that need to watch a few more games.
Fair play to Dublin last year as for most of the year they did play a much more open, fast, entertaining brand of football (like Tyrone did in 2005 in my biased eyes). I think most of us were glad to see that as Donegal, Tyrone and Mayo looked like it was going to be another year of defensive, negative football with possession being king again. Hopefully the black card will help teams to take the shackles off and return to a more direct kicking style of football were the win at all costs belief does change for the better.
In my eyes Brolly has a point but it's easy for someone in his position to say that whereas if Derry were in the top 5 teams I wonder would he be so disgusted to see such style of play if they were getting to AI finals and semi finals?
I think the Black cards will do their job with ridding most of the cynical tackles but if Derry are beating Tyrone in this years AI final and Sean Cavanagh is through on goal with 2 mins left I wonder will Joe be shouting pull him down. I trust not. It would be better for his sons NOT to see Derry play that way and for them to lose the All Ireland than for them to win cheating like that.
Quote from: theticklemister on January 13, 2014, 10:28:18 AM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on January 13, 2014, 09:49:19 AM
I don't often agree with Joe but most of that article was on the money. Though it will take radical change to make intercounty football a "beautiful game" again. Two things I would do is decrease the amount of subs back to three and make it a 13 a side game. Those two changes would make it a hell of a lot harder for managers and players to employ and implement negative tactics.
So 16 players , at max; gets a game.............
Yep at intercounty level only. I'd keep club at 15 a side. It would allow ball skills to come to the fore more, especially kick passing.
Quote from: Fuzzman on January 13, 2014, 11:32:17 AM
Fair play to Dublin last year as for most of the year they did play a much more open, fast, entertaining brand of football (like Tyrone did in 2005 in my biased eyes). I think most of us were glad to see that as Donegal, Tyrone and Mayo looked like it was going to be another year of defensive, negative football with possession being king again.
In 2003 I thought Tyrone played some of the best free flowing football I had seen apart form the semi against Kerry and with the final being against Ulster rivals Armagh it was always going to be a physical defensive struggle.Also the 2008 All Ireland final against Kerry was a super game of football as was the quarter final v Dublin. I would agree too that 2005 that team at it's peak played open football especially in the final against Kerry.
I do think you are being a bit harsh on my own county though who were always accused of being to naive because of our traditional approach to how we played football. We played some great open football in 2013 and I can't think of a championship game where we were overly negative or cynical. Yeah in the second half of the the Dubs semi in 2012 we were as cynical as any of the accused Ulster counties but you can't take that one game and say we play defensive cynical football regularly. It would be like tarring the Dubs 2013 season with the same brush just because the went into a defensive gameplan after the first 20 mins in the All Ireland final!!
Mayo may lack the mental strength to dig it out in the white hot heat of the All Ireland final , we may lack a consistent top score getting inside forward , we may be a very physical aggressive team in the tackle but to say we are overly defensive and cynical is a bit unfair in my (albeit biased) opinion.
Yeah as I typed Mayo I kinda thought twice about it but I think with the influence of Donegal in 2011 & 2102 I felt Mayo, Dublin and Tyrone were trying to counteract their play by playing the same way a bit. In fairness ye weren't very defensive last year but I think Moran has added that steeliness to ye that ye were missing for years.
I never read such rubbish in all my life. Dublin last year produced the most cynical display of football I have ever seen in an all Ireland final. Capped by mc menamens boot throwing shame. Even gain knew his cover was blown with his disproportionate reaction to the hacks after. Brolly good Craic but a real shit stirrer given the platform and in what role was he there again. Brolly is a likeable fool but don't take him too seriously lads. Next week the tune will play differently.
I see Joe's immediate family don't take any defamation of themselves lying down.
Quote from: Fuzzman on January 13, 2014, 05:35:37 PM
Yeah as I typed Mayo I kinda thought twice about it but I think with the influence of Donegal in 2011 & 2102 I felt Mayo, Dublin and Tyrone were trying to counteract their play by playing the same way a bit. In fairness ye weren't very defensive last year but I think Moran has added that steeliness to ye that ye were missing for years.
I think the main problem I have is the way the debate on cynical play (I welcome this debate) is being framed by the soundbites or live meltdowns by a couple of limited TV analysts ( Spillane's puke football and Brolly's Cavanagh rant). If you look at the supposed main offenders i.e Armagh , Donegal Tyrone and (shoehorned in late in the day by Brolly) Mayo.
Dealing with my own county first we have joined the outlawed cast by virtue of the fact we played a hugely cynical last 25 mins against the Dubs in 2012 who were managed by former Trinity classmate of Brolly and friend Pat Gilroy. It annoys me that out of nowhere Brolly suddenly became the leader against this evil due to his friend being downed by one cynical performance by a county Brolly laughed at for years due to the open nature of our play which lost us big games!
With Tyrone it was much the same as in Mickey Harte was desperate to land a first All Ireland knowing this could liberate a talented county by shaking off the failure which had dogged talented Tyrone teams down through the years. He knew Kerry were right at home in fast open game so he jammed it up turned it into a dogfight to give his team an even base to challenge Kerry. Spillane's puke football (a knee jerk reaction to his county being beaten) comment totally erased the great football Tyrone played up till then and by refusing to withdraw or clarify his comment it hung over the 2005 and 2008 victories which Tyrone went toe to toe football wise against the Kingdom and won.Puke football is almost gospel now when in fact it is a view held by a Kerryman who has contempt for Tyrone and Armagh due to defeats of his own county the he couldn't stomach. (see Liam McHale and his failure to get over the loss to Meath in 96!)
Donegal is different but again personally I don't think they are the villians that they are portrayed to be in the media. Granted they had a fair few uber defensive battles (which they initiated) especially in 2011 but if you look at the 2011 and 2012 in full it is interesting that all there best performances were when they played their full court press attacking style football ie. against Kildare in 2011 , Down 2012 , Cork 2012 and the final against us in 2012. Interestingly McGuiness freely admits to being too defensive against the Dubs in 2011 and costing them the match in the process. So even the great villians of Donegal subscribe to the fact that attack is what wins games in the end no matter how tight a defensive system might be.Again Jim's run ins with the media have coloured they way certain journalists portray the debate in regards to Donegal.
Armagh are almost guilty by association by getting to the 2003 final against Tyrone but my memories of the great Armagh team of the noughties is Oisin's record scoring in the Ulster final v Down , the epic semi v Dublin , the comback against Kerry and those great battles with Tyrone in 2005. None of these games got bogged down in cynical defensive play!Some dirty off the ball stuff , yes , but this happens in Mayo Galway games , Cork Kerry etc....
For me the problem is the rules followed by the refs. Now I don't want to say all refs are crap because they are not but the way they are governed and the lack of any sanction for repeated big game gaffs (one big mistake is going to happen after all they are human) or lack of consistant application of the rules are the start and the end of the cynical play problem for me. Pat MacEnaney's comments are a joke whenever quizzed on the hole in the rules or how Refs are selected for intercounty games. Throw in the lack of respect shown by the County boards towards the refs in terms of suspensions and you have a cycle of well meaning mediocrity which lead to holes everywhere for players and management to exploit. Aspiration about ethos and a higher achievement than just winners medals is all great but with the media focusing on these issues while ignoring the basic endemic problems in the system we will just go round in circles till everyone gets tired and drifts away.More self promoting articles from the likes of Brolly are just toilet paper at this stage and will only harden the views in the above so called villain counties against the black card (or any other solution) out of spite for the attempts of being brow beaten by such arrogant empty views.
Completely agree
Fair play Crete Boom, a very good post.
cracking post
That was a great post. Ref's can make mistakes and Armagh lost the 03 final due to a mistake by the ref. As with Rugby where available Ref's should be allowed to review footage of a major incident, ie one with a major consequence such as a goal or red card or at least seek council from a video ref.
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 14, 2014, 02:23:36 PM
That was a great post. Ref's can make mistakes and Armagh lost the 03 final due to a mistake by the ref. As with Rugby where available Ref's should be allowed to review footage of a major incident, ie one with a major consequence such as a goal or red card or at least seek council from a video ref.
Armaghisapples thats a freakin great porkie pie!
Crete you are on the money. Lets continue to face this bullshitery down.
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 14, 2014, 02:23:36 PM
That was a great post. Ref's can make mistakes and Armagh lost the 03 final due to a mistake by the ref. As with Rugby where available Ref's should be allowed to review footage of a major incident, ie one with a major consequence such as a goal or red card or at least seek council from a video ref.
Armagh did not lose because of a mistake by the ref. RRHF is correct.
Armagh lost in part due to a significant piece of playacting or indeed cheating. But to be fair, Armagh should have had the game put away at that stage that the playacting and skullduggery shouldn't have mattered, and had DM been on the field for the full 70 (ok 74) minutes, the end result may well have been different. But we'll never know.
I like the rugby review, as well as the coaches challenge in united states of american football. Review rule in the NFL must have evidence to prove the ruling on the field incorrect.
Quote from: heganboy on January 15, 2014, 04:04:16 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 14, 2014, 02:23:36 PM
That was a great post. Ref's can make mistakes and Armagh lost the 03 final due to a mistake by the ref. As with Rugby where available Ref's should be allowed to review footage of a major incident, ie one with a major consequence such as a goal or red card or at least seek council from a video ref.
Armagh did not lose because of a mistake by the ref. RRHF is correct.
Armagh lost in part due to a significant piece of playacting or indeed cheating. But to be fair, Armagh should have had the game put away at that stage that the playacting and skullduggery shouldn't have mattered, and had DM been on the field for the full 70 (ok 74) minutes, the end result may well have been different. But we'll never know.
I like the rugby review, as well as the coaches challenge in united states of american football. Review rule in the NFL must have evidence to prove the ruling on the field incorrect.
;D Love it.
Quote from: rrhf on January 14, 2014, 07:26:05 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 14, 2014, 02:23:36 PM
That was a great post. Ref's can make mistakes and Armagh lost the 03 final due to a mistake by the ref. As with Rugby where available Ref's should be allowed to review footage of a major incident, ie one with a major consequence such as a goal or red card or at least seek council from a video ref.
Armaghisapples thats a freakin great porkie pie!
Crete you are on the money. Lets continue to face this bullshitery down.
So why was Marsden's red card rescinded? Ref's mistake or play acting the result was the same Marsden was leading the Armagh comeback and his sending of changed the flow of the game and the result.
This is the rewriting of history that Armagh wans are constantly at. It wasn't rescinded because the ref said he made a mistake. It was on procedural grounds. And only after an appeal.
QuoteArmagh based their appeal to yesterday's meeting in Croke Park on procedural grounds, claiming that two requests to the GAC to ascertain whether the referee, Brian White had consulted with his umpire following an altercation between Marsden and Tyrone defender Philip Jordan had been ignored
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 15, 2014, 10:20:00 AM
This is the rewriting of history that Armagh wans are constantly at. It wasn't rescinded because the ref said he made a mistake. It was on procedural grounds. And only after an appeal.
QuoteArmagh based their appeal to yesterday's meeting in Croke Park on procedural grounds, claiming that two requests to the GAC to ascertain whether the referee, Brian White had consulted with his umpire following an altercation between Marsden and Tyrone defender Philip Jordan had been ignored
Video evidence clearly showed that Marsden was sinned against. So therefore dress it up as you like the ref got it wrong. Which reinforces the point that in big games big decisions should be reviewed if possible. I wouldn't suggest for one minute that White, did anything other than make a mistake. The outcome though affected the game and denied Armagh any chance of winning it.
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 15, 2014, 11:52:33 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 15, 2014, 10:20:00 AM
This is the rewriting of history that Armagh wans are constantly at. It wasn't rescinded because the ref said he made a mistake. It was on procedural grounds. And only after an appeal.
QuoteArmagh based their appeal to yesterday's meeting in Croke Park on procedural grounds, claiming that two requests to the GAC to ascertain whether the referee, Brian White had consulted with his umpire following an altercation between Marsden and Tyrone defender Philip Jordan had been ignored
Video evidence clearly showed that Marsden was sinned against. So therefore dress it up as you like the ref got it wrong. Which reinforces the point that in big games big decisions should be reviewed if possible. I wouldn't suggest for one minute that White, did anything other than make a mistake. The outcome though affected the game and denied Armagh any chance of winning it.
Being red-carded for striking counts as "being sinned against"?
I miss this thread! (http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=23812.msg1287640#msg1287640)
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 15, 2014, 11:52:33 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 15, 2014, 10:20:00 AM
This is the rewriting of history that Armagh wans are constantly at. It wasn't rescinded because the ref said he made a mistake. It was on procedural grounds. And only after an appeal.
QuoteArmagh based their appeal to yesterday’s meeting in Croke Park on procedural grounds, claiming that two requests to the GAC to ascertain whether the referee, Brian White had consulted with his umpire following an altercation between Marsden and Tyrone defender Philip Jordan had been ignored
Video evidence clearly showed that Marsden was sinned against. So therefore dress it up as you like the ref got it wrong. Which reinforces the point that in big games big decisions should be reviewed if possible. I wouldn't suggest for one minute that White, did anything other than make a mistake. The outcome though affected the game and denied Armagh any chance of winning it.
:D Video evidence did nothing of the sort but I'm glad you accept that Marsden got of on a technicality.
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 15, 2014, 11:52:33 AM
Quote from: supersarsfields on January 15, 2014, 10:20:00 AM
This is the rewriting of history that Armagh wans are constantly at. It wasn't rescinded because the ref said he made a mistake. It was on procedural grounds. And only after an appeal.
QuoteArmagh based their appeal to yesterday's meeting in Croke Park on procedural grounds, claiming that two requests to the GAC to ascertain whether the referee, Brian White had consulted with his umpire following an altercation between Marsden and Tyrone defender Philip Jordan had been ignored
Video evidence clearly showed that Marsden was sinned against. So therefore dress it up as you like the ref got it wrong. Which reinforces the point that in big games big decisions should be reviewed if possible. I wouldn't suggest for one minute that White, did anything other than make a mistake. The outcome though affected the game and denied Armagh any chance of winning it.
Thats complete bollocks !
Armagh had a chance to win it ! ( has this been convieniently erased ?) They couldnt take that chance. End of story. The attempt to the blame the world for their inability to achieve, although admirable, is laughable !
The Golden era of Armagh football in the years to come will be remembered as a period whereby much more should have been achieved by a talented panel of players. Translated they underachieved.
Quote from: Bensars on January 15, 2014, 01:51:34 PM
Translated they underachieved.
To say that any team that won their County's first All Ireland underachieved, after the run that they had, is fatuous at best.
They were the most feared team in Ireland for nearly 10 years, and while winning their first and so far only Sam Maguire is what they will be remembered for, 7 Ulster championships in 10 years is a feat only matched by Down (starting in '59) in the modern era. Though to be fair, I don't see Cavan's 29 wins in 41 years (from 1915) being beaten anytime soon...
Quote from: heganboy on January 15, 2014, 06:41:10 PM
Quote from: Bensars on January 15, 2014, 01:51:34 PM
Translated they underachieved.
To say that any team that won their County's first All Ireland underachieved, after the run that they had, is fatuous at best.
They were the most feared team in Ireland for nearly 10 years, and while winning their first and so far only Sam Maguire is what they will be remembered for, 7 Ulster championships in 10 years is a feat only matched by Down (starting in '59) in the modern era. Though to be fair, I don't see Cavan's 29 wins in 41 years (from 1915) being beaten anytime soon...
In Fairness the back door came at the worst time for Armagh. Can you imagine how much more they would have won if there had been a front door only?
Quote from: heganboy on January 15, 2014, 06:41:10 PM
Quote from: Bensars on January 15, 2014, 01:51:34 PM
Translated they underachieved.
To say that any team that won their County's first All Ireland underachieved, after the run that they had, is fatuous at best.
They were the most feared team in Ireland for nearly 10 years, and while winning their first and so far only Sam Maguire is what they will be remembered for, 7 Ulster championships in 10 years is a feat only matched by Down (starting in '59) in the modern era. Though to be fair, I don't see Cavan's 29 wins in 41 years (from 1915) being beaten anytime soon...
You have just confirmed the fact they underachieved ! "The most feared team in Ireland for nearly 10 years", 1 All ireland in that period of so called dominance is underachiveing.
I wonder will Joe criticise Fergal Doherty for deserting Derry the last couple of years, similar to his article on Eoin Bradley recently? Fergal was in the past one of Brollys poster boys, I doubt he will get the same distasteful treatment that Bradley was subjected to recently.
Quote from: ardtole on January 19, 2014, 09:40:33 PM
I wonder will Joe criticise Fergal Doherty for deserting Derry the last couple of years, similar to his article on Eoin Bradley recently? Fergal was in the past one of Brollys poster boys, I doubt he will get the same distasteful treatment that Bradley was subjected to recently.
Paddy heaney wrote a good response piece to brollys criticism in the IN there last week.
Bradley is entitled to opt out if he wants, but likewise, mcivor is fully entitled to say, thats fine, but youa re either out or your in, no coming back for the championship
Joe's attempt at sarcasm:
Brolly: Bradley's loyalty in the face of adversity
"Coleraine, Coleraine,
Together standing tall,
Shoulder to Shoulder,
We'll answer Coleraine's Call,
We'll answer Coleraine's Call"
(with apologies to Phil Coulter)
Eoin Bradley's decision to turn his back on Derry to stand shoulder to shoulder with his Coleraine team mates in their battle against relegation, will come as no surprise to those who know the man.
The easy decision would have been to spurn the Bannsiders. Currently languishing second bottom in the Irish League table, it would have been entirely understandable if Eoin had walked away from them and rejoined the Derry squad.
He could easily have gone back and played with the lads he has played with since he was a boy, from the clubs who have nurtured him and his old team mates since they were knee high. But instead, Eoin has made the hard decision. These were his own words on Tuesday to the BBC's Tommy Niblock (He'll read anything if it's on the auto-cue, and I mean anything).
"I want to stay and give the Coleraine lads a hand."
So, when the ball is thrown in on the 1st February for Derry's first sell-out Division One game against Tyrone at home, Eoin will be in the trenches with his Coleraine brothers, toiling in front of three men, a cocker spaniel and Jackie Fullerton.
As he said himself to Tommy on the Beeb, "It won't work out with Derry, but what can I do?"
As Eoin went on to explain he's thinking of, "Building a house next year," and the, "Few shillings," he's getting from Coleraine will come in handy.
As he put it – flashing a broad grin, "Money makes the world go around."
A word of warning: £100 a week pre-tax won't go far, so the new house will have to be built with ingenuity and a lot of self-help. Maybe the Coleraine soccer community will come up and give him a hand with it, in the way that the Glenullin GAA community row in behind any neighbour who falls on hard times.
His new Coleraine comrades need only travel to the Glen and look at the club's state of the art facilities to see how the self help philosophy works in practice.
The new house can be insulated with bales of sheep wool, and running water can be diverted from the mountain streams. It sounds like a project that might be a worthy subject for Grand Designs.
It is all too easy to poke fun. But as his father Baker might put it, 'What the f*** has Derry ever done for our Eoin?'
In 2011, he was absolutely flying in the Ulster championship. In the semi-final we cut poor Armagh to pieces, with Eoin putting on an electrifying show. Suddenly, he was the hottest property in the game, the name on everyone's lips. Then, in an in-house game the week before the final, disaster struck. He went down for a ball and his cruciate went. As his previous team mates rushed in to help, he looked up and made the immortal remark, "That's the end of the f***ing All-Star."
Which puts me in mind of a story I was told in Knockmore club in Mayo a few weeks before last year's All-Ireland final about ex-Mayo star Conor Mortimer. The self-styled Supermort – he has this tattooed on his arm in the manner of the Superman crest and colours – had played well against the Dubs in the All-Ireland semi-final that year.
The next day, one of the Knockmore lads rang him to congratulate him and wish him well in the final.
"Ah yeah thanks," he replied "That's the lump of copper in the bag anyway."
When Tommy asked him if he'd play for Derry in the future, he said, "If there's no soccer on I don't see why not."
But just as Derry hopes were beginning to rise, he added, "Hopefully I'll go on to bigger and better things with Coleraine."
It is not all gloom and doom however. Eoin has – and you may think this typical of the man – kindly offered to turn out for Derry in the first round of the championship against Donegal. An offer which for some reason known only to himself, manager Brian McIver has refused.
Gaels all over the country have been making fun of Derry and sniggering at Eoin this week. Others have laughed at Irish League soccer. Even some of his Derry team mates have privately expressed anger and annoyance at Eoin's decision.
To them, I say this: Next time you are in the huddle after a gruelling session in the hail at Owenbeg, exhausted and feeling sorry for yourselves, take a long hard look at your team mates and ask yourselves one simple question: How many of us would be prepared to do what Eoin has offered to do for his county?
Let us hope that Eoin's shining example of loyalty in the face of adversity, will inspire his Derry team mates to new heights in the coming year. Thank you Eoin!
http://gaeliclife.com/2014/01/brolly-bradleys-loyalty-in-the-face-of-adversity