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Messages - vallankumous

#436
Quote from: 6th sam on March 04, 2017, 03:53:59 PM

Would agree with a lot of that, but Both the DUP and UUP have espoused right wing policies for years. The poor showing of the Conservatives in 6 county elections, is not because the North has a strong left wing bias, but rather that most Northern Torys are assured that Tory politics will be predominant in the main unionist parties, and their desire to have their vote count in the sectarian headcount trumps their desire to vote for the Conservative party.

I don't think it's a sectarian head count. Republicanism and Unionism are perfectly ok political positions to hold. Unionism and Republicanism and bonuses for many voters and usually not enough to win a vote. If they were there'd be no need for more than two parties.
I doubt if more than a few idiots voted SF because they don't like protestants and I doubt if anyone voted DUP because they don't like catholics. Voting for republicanism or unionism for the sake of republicanism or unionism is not sectarian.
#437
Quote from: 6th sam on March 04, 2017, 03:29:10 PM
The other major players in this are the British and Irish governments. The change from a labour to Tory government has not helped progress in recent years . The "green" community in the North have absolutely no affinity with Torys, who have been consistently antagonistic or apathetic towards them. Tory values and policies are in direct contrast to those of the 2 major nationalist parties. The Tories have Been in power for most of the last 50 years and it's no coincidence that the period of most progress in that time was under Labour's watch. It is obvious that the Torys can not be considered honest brokers in any negotiations, not least because they have a vested interest in looking after the DUP. Equally important is the role of the Irish government, with Fine Gael being vehement political opponents of Sinn Féin , never mind the fact that they originate from those who in the eyes of many "hung northern nationalists out to dry in 1921" . Ironically if you exclude supporters of the Torys and the DUP, and to a lesser extent UUP/Fine Gael, the vast majority of people on these two islands , would be strongly in favour of equality, and at the very least, close links between north and south. There is no doubt that we are heading towards some form of unity, and the challenge for nationalists is to try to convince the 5% of the island's population who voted unionist , that their strong British identity will be respected in any new institutions. At the same time politicians need to ensure that regardless of any short/medium/long term constitutional solutions, that we our focus should be on health/education/employment/poverty in the meantime .

No party in the north, nationalist or unionist have affinity with the Tories. Of course some are closer in political terms but there's no affinity. The DUP and the UUP are political parties in their own right  equal to the right the Tories and Labour have.
Labour are no better or worse than the Tories when it comes to dealing with parties in the north. It's the Tory social position that nationalists rally against moreso than Labours. Labour have a bad history of treatment of northern nationalists too.
Labour took power at a time that things began to change in the north and the progress was made in the north. All credit for this is with the people of the north who seen a chance through a variety of leaders and began to demand things change. Labour were the ones that happened to be there. Add to that, we we lucky that they held power for long enough to see it through along with FF. If either of them had have lost an election around the time of the GFA we would be in a different place. A lot of things came together and lasted long enough to implement a change.

#438
Quote from: T Fearon on March 04, 2017, 03:02:12 PM
Yes but what is the point of owing allegiance to states who do not want you or regard you as their people? I'd say the Dublin Govt is shitting itself after this election.

I don't know anyone in the north that owes it's allegiance to the southern state. I don't think nationalism is about that. It's a national identity not a statehood identity. Nobody is saying they want to live in Dundalk. The state is a very separate thing. The Government in the south are of no concern to national identity. They are administrators of the State, not a national figure.
As for Unionism, they are part of the UK. In this case it makes no difference what the rest of the UK think. They have their unique identity within Britain. They do not have allegiance to the UK Government of the day. They have allegiance to the Union as Irish Unionists.
#439
Quote from: T Fearon on March 04, 2017, 02:41:40 PM
Read this carefully.Britain does not want or regard Northern Unionists as their people.Dublin does not want or regard Northern nationalists as their people.Ulster unionism and Northern nationalism are redundant philosophies therefore

That's not the case. northern nationalists and unionists are philosophies in their own right.
#440
Quote from: T Fearon on March 04, 2017, 02:26:53 PM
Nothing will be solved.A lot of SDLP seats won on UUP transfers which wont happen again.This election will produce one super unionist party with a totally hardline attitude and on and on this crap will go to the detriment of everyone here

What we need is progressive thinkers like you in politics.
#441
Quote from: Keyser soze on March 04, 2017, 12:13:02 PM
It is no coincidence that SF's increase in votes came when they stood up to the Dup and collapsed Stormont. Most Sinn Fein voters don't believe that NI should exist let alone that republicans should take a part in ruling it. Their vote was shredding previously as their voters were sickened by them constantly being treated with contempt by unionists, accepting insults and arrogance whilst turing the other cheek. Only when they grew a pair and stood up to the arrogance did they reverse the trend of a shrinking nat/rep vote. IMO their role is to demonstrate that NI is ungovernable and is an unsustainable entity. Pity it took the Dup to, unwittingly in their arrogance, demonstrate it for them.

If they roll over post this election I forecast that they will kiss goodbye to the gains made now at any futture elections.

Yes, I agree that this give them the lift. However, they did still hold a large part of their vote.
I am one who give up on them with the brinkmanship game and was delighted when they pulled the plug on Arlegator.
However, i think it's ungovernable because it's unsustainable not because there are two ethic people living there.
#442
Quote from: seafoid on March 04, 2017, 12:15:57 PM
The DUP lost their veto. Does this mean Unionists will be forced into gay marriages ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TREKaEGBD_s

Yip, shotgun gay marriage.
#443
Quote from: Avondhu star on March 04, 2017, 09:35:45 AM

You badly need to read up on European history. Its not all about the six counties. The EU and USA need Greece to be pro Europe and not pro Moscow. Why do you think the Generals rules Greece in the 70s? Poland with its history is the same. Dont be relying on Wojcieh in McDonalds Kings Cross to have any influence on Brexit.
As for Parnell and your FFS comment. Your knowledge of Irish history is as bad as your knowledge of European history.
Dont worry the pubs are opening soon. You can pop down and have a pint while you read The Sun

Yes mum.
#444
Quote from: seafoid on March 04, 2017, 09:32:55 AM

There seems to be a strong correlation between Unionist seats and areas with Protestant majorities.

for example , red blue yellow
http://elections.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ni-assembly-2017/east-antrim

versus
green green green green red

http://elections.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ni-assembly-2017/west-tyrone

How many UUP transfers did the SDLP get anyway ?

Yes agreed but it does not allow for the fact that these political parties stand on many issues related to a normal political landscape.
If I'm a protestant unionist I'll vote unionist but I'll vote along social issues and that will not be taken into account.
For example, I might vote TUV for their immigration stance or DUP for their stance on LGBT or UUP for their position on RHI. The fact that they are Unionist just happens to be a bonus but it did not come into my thinking when casting my vote. It's just there and I'd like to be judged on my political stance on a range of issues not by the fact that I'm a protestant living in the east.

I talk politics with many Unionists and we agree and disagree on many issues. They are Unionists, that's a reasonable political position to have. They are also, left, right, green, industrial, agricultural, urban etc. This is what defines their politics and what they like to discuss. Now, if they were to talk to Tommy Gorman he'd not care a jot about any of that.

#445
Quote from: king of leon on March 04, 2017, 09:21:49 AM
Will Arlene go? Surely she her arrogance can't go beyond this.

Also, what is the likelihood of Sinn Fein ever taking their seats at Westminster?

Hard to know on the first one.

Never on the second.
Their electorate don't want it. If they stand on a platform of taking their seats, they won't get elected.
#446
Quote from: Farrandeelin on March 04, 2017, 09:11:04 AM

Obviously those things too. However NI will always be unionist v nationalist until a UI comes around.

I think that's a lazy argument. This election shows that's not the case.

If you take into account the results you'll see the issues were, Brexit, Equality (LGBT), Corruption, Irish Language. These are not unionist v nationalist issues.
Some might argue the Irish Language is but for the majority of nationalists and many unionits it isnt. 
If we are all nationalist and Unionist the Alliance would not have done so well and the SDLP would not have received Unionist transfers.
It seems this nationalist Unionist divide being protrayed is the product of lazy journalists who don't want to dig into it. It's also taking the election map and seeing it in terms of green and orange. It's how it's always displayed by lazy journalists and media. If it was changed to blue and red for voters who voted for pro and anti Brexit parties it would look different. But, that would mean journalists who made their trade in the 1980s in the north would need to change their ingrained train of thought.
It would also mean southern and UK based journalists having to explain it to their market. It's easier to say green and orange to the their audience than try to explain that there is a modern politic happening in the north.
#447
Quote from: screenexile on March 04, 2017, 09:01:08 AM
Huge result for Nationalists with the seat count dropping by 18 and then both keeping the same number of seats (well SF have 27 now instead of 28).

Unionism in turmoil and a resurgence of the SDLP is great to see. To be fair I don't usually vote for SF but Arelene's arrogance and naked bigotry helped to make my mind up this time.

There was talk she needed a minimum 30 seats to solidify her position as party leader it will be interesting to see how she gets through the next few days. I'm sure Gerry and the BBC will get a get plenty of the blame!

FAKE NEWS

I think the Gerry Adams angle didn't work for her in the election. It would be foolish to keep it up.
#448
Quote from: Avondhu star on March 04, 2017, 08:40:59 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on March 04, 2017, 07:55:04 AM
Meanwhile Foreign Affairs Dept in Dublin is shitting itself as the unionist majority dwindles and the prospect of a border poll intensifies.
How did you come to that asinine conclusion?
No one including Sinn Fein have made the good economic case for a United Ireland. To give credit to Matt Carthy MEP he did make soundings in that regard.
When Brexit finally kicks there will be no special status for the north. Try convincing the Poles Greeks etc that a small region still under British jurisdiction should get a sweetheart deal.
When the Brussels cheques dries up and Westminster has its arse opened looking after the "mainland" both sides in the north will have to look at alternative political arrangements.
However both north and south is lacking a true leader like Parnell that the country could rally behind

Nobody cares about the Greeks, least of all the EU. The Poles have a big interest in the ex pats in the UK and might have some voice.

Parnell, FFS
#449
The SDLP calling this a sectarian result is very bad politics. You lose an election you shouldn't react by insulting the electorate.

I didn't vote but I would have voted SF and I'd have been insulted if I was accused of voting for sectarian reasons. Corruption, the Irish language and equality for LGBT community are not sectarian in motive.
#450
GAA Discussion / Re: Super 8s
March 01, 2017, 01:49:44 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 27, 2017, 08:03:53 PM
Why can't they play the 2 groups the same weekend - 2 games Saturday, 2 Sunday.

Everything about this points to revenue. That's the answer to almost all the questions.