USFC 2020 Semi-Final Armagh v Donegal

Started by Orior, November 03, 2020, 12:10:29 PM

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thewobbler

Quote from: bennydorano on November 14, 2020, 10:41:24 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 14, 2020, 07:46:34 PM
I'm thinking that Donegal have cottoned onto what Dublin / Gavin have largely mastered over the past few years.

The key to coaching a team in attacking football, isn't about percentages. It isn't about trying to get the players to make a preprogrammed decision based on an algorithm that derives from where they are on the field, and how they rank in terms of creativity among the team. It's about coaching players to move in such a way as to continually present options to the ball carrier, and then allowing him to make up his own mind. Then, when he makes up his mind, to do it with absolute conviction.

Whereas the key to defensive play isn't about setting up intricate systems and rules. It's first and foremost about winning your own personal battle, then looking for a bit of help when it's not possible to do so.

——

This isn't to say that Dublin and now Donegal don't have tactics or a style of football. But both play a remarkably simple game of football. Run into positions where you create an advantage to your team, then demand the ball. If you don't get it, repeat.

——

With the point being that Armagh, while not as slavishly bound to a system as Tyrone, Monaghan or Kerry have shown this year, don't play like this. Their defenders don't take personal responsibility. Their midfielders want to catch first, ensure possession second. Their forwards are talented, but not in terms of interplay. Donegal are pretty much the opposite.
Having the best players helps tho

Benny, player talent is the fundamental key to success.

But I'd sincerely ask why any county board should stump up a large 6-figures a year on salaries, consultants, equipment and devices, if it's not to bridge that gap?

That's what's going on all over the country. A legion of managers teaching players how to lose in a structured fashion, instead of chase down a win. That's not particularly the case in Armagh. Kieran isn't a defensive manager. But whatever he's been doing at training the past 5 years isn't improving the players he has been given.


Lotto

 
Quote from: thewobbler on November 14, 2020, 11:43:31 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on November 14, 2020, 10:41:24 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 14, 2020, 07:46:34 PM
I'm thinking that Donegal have cottoned onto what Dublin / Gavin have largely mastered over the past few years.

The key to coaching a team in attacking football, isn't about percentages. It isn't about trying to get the players to make a preprogrammed decision based on an algorithm that derives from where they are on the field, and how they rank in terms of creativity among the team. It's about coaching players to move in such a way as to continually present options to the ball carrier, and then allowing him to make up his own mind. Then, when he makes up his mind, to do it with absolute conviction.

Whereas the key to defensive play isn't about setting up intricate systems and rules. It's first and foremost about winning your own personal battle, then looking for a bit of help when it's not possible to do so.

——

This isn't to say that Dublin and now Donegal don't have tactics or a style of football. But both play a remarkably simple game of football. Run into positions where you create an advantage to your team, then demand the ball. If you don't get it, repeat.

——

With the point being that Armagh, while not as slavishly bound to a system as Tyrone, Monaghan or Kerry have shown this year, don't play like this. Their defenders don't take personal responsibility. Their midfielders want to catch first, ensure possession second. Their forwards are talented, but not in terms of interplay. Donegal are pretty much the opposite.
Having the best players helps tho

Benny, player talent is the fundamental key to success.

But I'd sincerely ask why any county board should stump up a large 6-figures a year on salaries, consultants, equipment and devices, if it's not to bridge that gap?

That's what's going on all over the country. A legion of managers teaching players how to lose in a structured fashion, instead of chase down a win. That's not particularly the case in Armagh. Kieran isn't a defensive manager. But whatever he's been doing at training the past 5 years isn't improving the players he has been given.

And Paddy Tally is improving the Down players Wobbler? The Down first half last week was totally inept based on the Tally template but when they got back to their direct and aggressive attack in the second half it paid off. You know as well as me that Down do not do defensive well and our lads are not suited to 14 behind the ball.

BTW in bold, you and your club bankrolled Poacher to do exactly that for many years.

thewobbler

Sorry, at what point did I mention Tally?

—-

Again Lotto, you read the Down section enough to know how I feel about paid managers and what they bring. Don't make this personal.

Ronnie

Quote from: bennydorano on November 14, 2020, 05:17:52 PM
Quote from: general_lee on November 14, 2020, 03:45:26 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on November 14, 2020, 03:26:49 PM
Shane McConville, either McEntee? At least a different goalie might get a run.
And what are they going to do different with the backs we have?

Quote from: omochain on November 14, 2020, 03:32:17 PM
With the exception of Kennedy our back 4 are not up to it. We must have no other players in the county who are better or we would play them!!! Right. It seems the team management are forced into making adjustments out the field to compensate for this weak defense and evidence today's game... that's not working
I'm not sure the players are there right now in Armagh club football. I thought Forker done ok, Shields is great going forward and agree Kennedy is decent. We have no decent man markers nor a commanding goalkeeper
Well that's the joy of a new approach, trying something new, who knows? Maybe try something different with different personnel.

Comparing 2014 AI QF loss v Donegal wouldn't be a wasted exercise.  Didn't have a commanding GK then either, forwards & MF decent enough but also missed plenty that day if I remember right.  Difference I'd say is in the standard of defender.  I'd agree that Kennedy is the only one who would've got a game in 2014.  Donegal have also been transformed from then.   Their HFs are outstanding.   Not sure if they've that many players who survived from then?   Maybe 5/6?  Armagh only have about 3/4.  Somebody could research it.  Might have a look..

tonto1888

Armagh have forker Campbell and Clarke and shields from the starting team that day. Donaghy started but obviously didn't get on yesterday. McEvoy was in goals. A much better keeper than BH IMO. the defence was Moriarty, Vernon,, Mallon, Kernan, Donaghy, Shields. 1-7 that day was a lot better than 1-7 yesterday.

Ronnie

Just finished reading / watching that:

BBC copyright:

Armagh: P McEvoy, F Moriarty, C Vernon, A Mallon (0-1), M Shields, B Donaghy, A Kernan (0-2, 1f), S Harold, A Findon, A Forker (0-1), K Dyas, T Kernan (0-4, 1f), K Carragher (0-1), S Campbell (1-1), J Clarke.

Subs: B Mallon for Carragher, E Rafferty for Findon, R Grugan for Dyas, M Murray (0-1) for Forker, K Toner for Harold.

Donegal: P Durcan, E McGee, N McGee (0-1), F McGlynn, A Thompson, K Lacey, P McGrath, N Gallagher, C Toye, R McHugh, L McLoone, O MacNiallais (1-1), P McBrearty (0-2), M Murphy (0-5, 4f), C McFadden (0-3, 2f).

Subs: R Kavanagh for Toye, M McElhinney for McLoone, D O'Connor for McFadden, M O'Reilly for McBrearty.

Referee: J McQuillan (Cavan)

BBC copyright.

Agree Tonto but McEvoy should've done better for the goal.   GKs always easy targets.

Ronnie

McGeeney was no.2 to Paul Grimley that year.

tonto1888

Quote from: Ronnie on November 15, 2020, 08:36:25 AM
Just finished reading / watching that:

BBC copyright:

Armagh: P McEvoy, F Moriarty, C Vernon, A Mallon (0-1), M Shields, B Donaghy, A Kernan (0-2, 1f), S Harold, A Findon, A Forker (0-1), K Dyas, T Kernan (0-4, 1f), K Carragher (0-1), S Campbell (1-1), J Clarke.

Subs: B Mallon for Carragher, E Rafferty for Findon, R Grugan for Dyas, M Murray (0-1) for Forker, K Toner for Harold.

Donegal: P Durcan, E McGee, N McGee (0-1), F McGlynn, A Thompson, K Lacey, P McGrath, N Gallagher, C Toye, R McHugh, L McLoone, O MacNiallais (1-1), P McBrearty (0-2), M Murphy (0-5, 4f), C McFadden (0-3, 2f).

Subs: R Kavanagh for Toye, M McElhinney for McLoone, D O'Connor for McFadden, M O'Reilly for McBrearty.

Referee: J McQuillan (Cavan)

BBC copyright.

Agree Tonto but McEvoy should've done better for the goal.   GKs always easy targets.

GKs are definitely easy targets and I'm not one to criticise young BH easily. I just think McEvoy was a better keeper. Hughes has a lot of good points but he is weak at times too. Letting one bounce over the crossbar yesterday being an example. That's before we look at kick outs - not all to do with him mind you - but he often kicks straight to the opposition

Orior

Not all the Armagh keeper's fault.

With regard the ball bouncing over the bar, you could say rookie mistake, but if he had stepped out it could easily have been flicked into the net.

On the kick-outs - definitely not enough movement out in the field.
Cover me in chocolate and feed me to the lesbians

Angelo

Armagh lack real pace in their side, lots of quality forwards but there were occasions when Mogan and Gallagher took off and no Armagh players could live with them.

Will McGeeney stay on? Think that was the last of his 5 year term.
GAA FUNDING CHEATS CHEAT US ALL

keeperlit

Did anyone see mcgeeney's interview with bbc last night? Don't know what anyone else thinks but I thought it was a disgrace. absolutely blamed players on all that wrong because they did not do what he told them. He has been managing them for six years, so there is two scenarios there. First one is he is not coaching them correctly to do whatever it is he wants them to do. Second scenario is that the players do not believe in whatever it is the manager is looking them to do. Either way it is a failure of management. IMO kmcg cannot shirk responsibility here.
I would not have been in the mcgeeney out camp before as I thought he just needed to get a bit of competent help in. But after that interview it is very hard to see how the players could be happy. And if they are happy enough then that tells it own story #brainwashed

armaghniac

The pace of the Down players today was very noticeable when compared to the rather ponderous approach of Armagh.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

BennyCake

Quote from: armaghniac on November 15, 2020, 07:58:16 PM
The pace of the Down players today was very noticeable when compared to the rather ponderous approach of Armagh.

Yes, Down were excellent first half.

We were very ponderous as you say. Donegal had quick hands, quick thinking and knew exactly what they were at. Our attacking was very noticeably off the cuff.

tonto1888

Quote from: Angelo on November 15, 2020, 07:07:54 PM
Armagh lack real pace in their side, lots of quality forwards but there were occasions when Mogan and Gallagher took off and no Armagh players could live with them.

Will McGeeney stay on? Think that was the last of his 5 year term.

I don't think many could live with those two.
This was his 6th year

twohands!!!

Teams Armagh have beaten in the Championship under McGeeney
Wicklow
Fermanagh
Westmeath
Tipperary
Kildare
Westmeath
Sligo
Clare
Monaghan
Down
Derry

Teams Armagh have been beaten by in the Championship under McGeeney
Donegal
Galway
Cavan
Laois
Down
Tyrone
Fermanagh
Roscommon
Cavan
Mayo 
Donegal

Teams Armagh have drawn with in the Championship under McGeeney
Cavan
Laois * [if you consider the 7 sub game that had to be replayed a draw]

Overall 24 games played 11 wins, 11 losses and 2 draws.

Armagh gave him 2 more years in 2019, so think he will remain in situ next year.

Will struggle to avoid relegation and hard to see any serious championship impact with McGeeney finishing up then.