A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[Milltown Row2]

Will the new English PM speed up the process leading to the All Ireland State?

Well considering she put her foot in it with the French leadership I give it a few days before she falls out with the Irish leadership and the DUP of course

[balladmaker]

Below is worth a listen .. someone who seems to know what he's talking about ...

https://www.todayfm.com/podcasts/the-last-word-with-matt-cooper/are-we-prepared-for-a-yes-result-in-a-united-ireland-poll

[weareros]

Below is worth a listen .. someone who seems to know what he's talking about ...

https://www.todayfm.com/podcasts/the-last-word-with-matt-cooper/are-we-prepared-for-a-yes-result-in-a-united-ireland-poll

So well spoken and the type of smart, intelligent articulation that should be heard more. Thanks for sharing.

[93-DY-SAM]

Below is worth a listen .. someone who seems to know what he's talking about ...

https://www.todayfm.com/podcasts/the-last-word-with-matt-cooper/are-we-prepared-for-a-yes-result-in-a-united-ireland-poll

So well spoken and the type of smart, intelligent articulation that should be heard more. Thanks for sharing.

Just listened to this. This is precisely the type of grown-up discussion that should be ongoing and that should be happening on a much wider basis.

[Evil Genius]

Just to throw in my penny's worth as a SF voter...

And here's mine as a Unonist (though not a DUPer).

Anyhow, I was chatting earlier this evening to another Unionist (but no hardliner) and we both agreed, what must eg the mother of a dead hunger striker, or a volunteer who was shot on an operation etc, think upon seeing the recent activities oif SF?

I mean, just what the fcuk was the "armed struggle" for? So  Michelle O'Neill could fly over to Westminster to be seen shaking hands with the Royal Family etc, surrounded by British servicemen and women in unifoirm?

Before flying back and berating the DUP for not joining in helping them both administer British Rule in Ireland?

It will never be comfortable watching SF politicians shaking hands with British monarchs while we remain partitioned, but that being said, it's abundantly clear why they did it.

"Never comfortable" is it?

I'm surprised any self-respecting Republican - the clue's in the name btw - could keep from throwing up at the very sight, but no matter.

And as for "why they did it", that's bloody obvious - they're just playing politics. Which in itself might be fine - after all they're politicians these days - but to what political end?

To put one over the DUP/TUV etc, while stealing the SDLP's clothes etc and to maximise the Nationalist vote at the next election, yeah, I can see all that. But to borrow a soccer analogy, that's all just fannying about outside the penalty area, playing neat tiki-taka to entertain the fans in the stand, without ever getting a shot on target, never mind scoring a goal, the "target" being a United Ireland.

Or so I thought.

They have been getting lauded from (almost) all directions for how they've handled the last few days - most notably from middle grounders who are the very people that need to be brought on board for what is now an inevitable border poll and like all SF does - it's geared towards a successful border poll.

Christ! Do you really believe that?

Were I a Shinner, positively the last thing I'd want would be a border poll. I mean, why suffer the humiliation of losing?

For if anything, this week's activities have made a UI vote further away, not closer, on two counts.

1. "Normalising" politics in NI does nothing for Republicanism, since the closer NI gets to normality, the less pressing the need of Nationalists for a UI.

2. And even if they can maximise their share of the Nationalist/Republican vote, as I've said on here before,  a referendum is a very different proposition from an election (see eg Scotland, Brexit). And for SF to get over the 42-43% level at which Nationalism has plateaued in every election this century, they need to start persuading a significant section of the Unionist community to cease to be Unionists, reject their life-long identity and vote for something they've opposed for the last, well, forever.

And on that score, the DUP/TUV hardliners are (predictably enough) spitting feathers, while the moderates remain unmoved, seeing it all for what it actually is i.e. shameless, cynical politicking. But either way, it doesn't make any of them less of a Unionist.

As I say, I take no pleasure seeing them greet monarchs, but the reality is that it's nothing new nowadays. No existing SF voters are going to get too annoyed today at Michelle O'Neill for shaking a royal's hand. Why would they? She didn't break any new ground. SF politicians, Michelle included, have been meeting british royals for the last ten years ever since Martin McGuinness took the step first back and shook Lizzie's hand in 2012.

Seems to me that SF have had everything to gain and nothing really to lose this last week and that's how they've played it.

Nothing to lose bar their dignity and nothing to gain, full stop.

Seems to me that it wasn't just the Queen who died last week, but another little bit of Irish Republicanism.

But while we  Unionists can proclaim: "The Queen is dead, Long Live the King", what has SF got to offer next?

Taking their seats in Westminster?

Hell, why not - they've sold out on just about everything else!

[BennyHarp]

It's a mad world we live in these days when Unionists berate SF for not being Republican enough. 🤷‍♂️

[Eamonnca1]

Just to throw in my penny's worth as a SF voter...

And here's mine as a Unonist (though not a DUPer).

Anyhow, I was chatting earlier this evening to another Unionist (but no hardliner) and we both agreed, what must eg the mother of a dead hunger striker, or a volunteer who was shot on an operation etc, think upon seeing the recent activities oif SF?

I mean, just what the fcuk was the "armed struggle" for? So  Michelle O'Neill could fly over to Westminster to be seen shaking hands with the Royal Family etc, surrounded by British servicemen and women in unifoirm?

Before flying back and berating the DUP for not joining in helping them both administer British Rule in Ireland?

It will never be comfortable watching SF politicians shaking hands with British monarchs while we remain partitioned, but that being said, it's abundantly clear why they did it.

"Never comfortable" is it?

I'm surprised any self-respecting Republican - the clue's in the name btw - could keep from throwing up at the very sight, but no matter.

And as for "why they did it", that's bloody obvious - they're just playing politics. Which in itself might be fine - after all they're politicians these days - but to what political end?

To put one over the DUP/TUV etc, while stealing the SDLP's clothes etc and to maximise the Nationalist vote at the next election, yeah, I can see all that. But to borrow a soccer analogy, that's all just fannying about outside the penalty area, playing neat tiki-taka to entertain the fans in the stand, without ever getting a shot on target, never mind scoring a goal, the "target" being a United Ireland.

Or so I thought.

They have been getting lauded from (almost) all directions for how they've handled the last few days - most notably from middle grounders who are the very people that need to be brought on board for what is now an inevitable border poll and like all SF does - it's geared towards a successful border poll.

Christ! Do you really believe that?

Were I a Shinner, positively the last thing I'd want would be a border poll. I mean, why suffer the humiliation of losing?

For if anything, this week's activities have made a UI vote further away, not closer, on two counts.

1. "Normalising" politics in NI does nothing for Republicanism, since the closer NI gets to normality, the less pressing the need of Nationalists for a UI.

2. And even if they can maximise their share of the Nationalist/Republican vote, as I've said on here before,  a referendum is a very different proposition from an election (see eg Scotland, Brexit). And for SF to get over the 42-43% level at which Nationalism has plateaued in every election this century, they need to start persuading a significant section of the Unionist community to cease to be Unionists, reject their life-long identity and vote for something they've opposed for the last, well, forever.

And on that score, the DUP/TUV hardliners are (predictably enough) spitting feathers, while the moderates remain unmoved, seeing it all for what it actually is i.e. shameless, cynical politicking. But either way, it doesn't make any of them less of a Unionist.

As I say, I take no pleasure seeing them greet monarchs, but the reality is that it's nothing new nowadays. No existing SF voters are going to get too annoyed today at Michelle O'Neill for shaking a royal's hand. Why would they? She didn't break any new ground. SF politicians, Michelle included, have been meeting british royals for the last ten years ever since Martin McGuinness took the step first back and shook Lizzie's hand in 2012.

Seems to me that SF have had everything to gain and nothing really to lose this last week and that's how they've played it.

Nothing to lose bar their dignity and nothing to gain, full stop.

Seems to me that it wasn't just the Queen who died last week, but another little bit of Irish Republicanism.

But while we  Unionists can proclaim: "The Queen is dead, Long Live the King", what has SF got to offer next?

Taking their seats in Westminster?

Hell, why not - they've sold out on just about everything else!

Friendly reminder that SF is an Irish republican party. Not a British republican party. It's no more of their business how the British run their country than it is any of the Brits' business how Ireland should be governed, north or south. SF's actions over the last week have been entirely consistent with their Irish republican principles.

As for a border poll, yeah there's not much chance of our ones winning one as soon as we "win" the census, but AFAIK once you hold one border poll then you start the clock on when the next one is held, and they keep on getting held until the appropriate outcome comes out. This is not like Scotland where a constitutional referendum only gets held whenever a British government feels like it, or is forced into it by parliamentary arithmetic. The slope to a UI is a lot slippier than the slope to an independent Scotland.

[BrotherMore6592]

Just to throw in my penny's worth as a SF voter...

And here's mine as a Unonist (though not a DUPer).

Anyhow, I was chatting earlier this evening to another Unionist (but no hardliner) and we both agreed, what must eg the mother of a dead hunger striker, or a volunteer who was shot on an operation etc, think upon seeing the recent activities oif SF?

I mean, just what the fcuk was the "armed struggle" for? So  Michelle O'Neill could fly over to Westminster to be seen shaking hands with the Royal Family etc, surrounded by British servicemen and women in unifoirm?

Before flying back and berating the DUP for not joining in helping them both administer British Rule in Ireland?

It will never be comfortable watching SF politicians shaking hands with British monarchs while we remain partitioned, but that being said, it's abundantly clear why they did it.

"Never comfortable" is it?

I'm surprised any self-respecting Republican - the clue's in the name btw - could keep from throwing up at the very sight, but no matter.

And as for "why they did it", that's bloody obvious - they're just playing politics. Which in itself might be fine - after all they're politicians these days - but to what political end?

To put one over the DUP/TUV etc, while stealing the SDLP's clothes etc and to maximise the Nationalist vote at the next election, yeah, I can see all that. But to borrow a soccer analogy, that's all just fannying about outside the penalty area, playing neat tiki-taka to entertain the fans in the stand, without ever getting a shot on target, never mind scoring a goal, the "target" being a United Ireland.

Or so I thought.

They have been getting lauded from (almost) all directions for how they've handled the last few days - most notably from middle grounders who are the very people that need to be brought on board for what is now an inevitable border poll and like all SF does - it's geared towards a successful border poll.

Christ! Do you really believe that?

Were I a Shinner, positively the last thing I'd want would be a border poll. I mean, why suffer the humiliation of losing?

For if anything, this week's activities have made a UI vote further away, not closer, on two counts.

1. "Normalising" politics in NI does nothing for Republicanism, since the closer NI gets to normality, the less pressing the need of Nationalists for a UI.

2. And even if they can maximise their share of the Nationalist/Republican vote, as I've said on here before,  a referendum is a very different proposition from an election (see eg Scotland, Brexit). And for SF to get over the 42-43% level at which Nationalism has plateaued in every election this century, they need to start persuading a significant section of the Unionist community to cease to be Unionists, reject their life-long identity and vote for something they've opposed for the last, well, forever.

And on that score, the DUP/TUV hardliners are (predictably enough) spitting feathers, while the moderates remain unmoved, seeing it all for what it actually is i.e. shameless, cynical politicking. But either way, it doesn't make any of them less of a Unionist.

As I say, I take no pleasure seeing them greet monarchs, but the reality is that it's nothing new nowadays. No existing SF voters are going to get too annoyed today at Michelle O'Neill for shaking a royal's hand. Why would they? She didn't break any new ground. SF politicians, Michelle included, have been meeting british royals for the last ten years ever since Martin McGuinness took the step first back and shook Lizzie's hand in 2012.

Seems to me that SF have had everything to gain and nothing really to lose this last week and that's how they've played it.

Nothing to lose bar their dignity and nothing to gain, full stop.

Seems to me that it wasn't just the Queen who died last week, but another little bit of Irish Republicanism.

But while we  Unionists can proclaim: "The Queen is dead, Long Live the King", what has SF got to offer next?

Taking their seats in Westminster?

Hell, why not - they've sold out on just about everything else!

WUM, yawn, move on

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

Good post Evil genius. Good to hear your opinion, I agree with you on on how  this week's events will pan out . I think SF have normalised the " northern Irish identity" as something young people are happy with. If Brexit settles and the UK economy improves we have no chance of winning any referendum. People are much happier in the current NI than any time in it it's existence.

Brexit needs to have a stinking second half for us to win the game

[Hound]

It's a mad world we live in these days when Unionists berate SF for not being Republican enough. 🤷‍♂️

A sure sign that Sinn Fein are finally on the right track.

SF doing the decent thing is shocking and scary. You'll never change the hardliners on both sides from being upset at them doing that, but everyone else thinks they've played a blinder. Keep this up and the moderate unionists won't be so frightened of what a UI might look like.

[Hound]

I saw the Irish harp on the Queen's coffin and wondered what that was all about. Got this from wiki:
—
the flag is divided into four quadrants. The first and fourth quadrants represent the ancient Kingdom of England and contain three gold lions (or "leopards"), passant guardant on a red field; the second quadrant represents the ancient Kingdom of Scotland and contains a red lion rampant on a gold field; the third quadrant represents the ancient Kingdom of Ireland and contains a version of the gold harp from the coat of arms of Ireland on a blue field. The inclusion of the harp remains an issue for some in Ireland. In 1937 Éamon de Valera, then Taoiseach, asked Dominions Secretary Malcolm MacDonald if the harp quarter could be removed from the Royal Standard on the grounds that the Irish people had not given their consent to the Irish emblem being included. The request was denied and the harp remains 
—
That's a bit sickening to be honest.
But on the other hand, when a UI comes into being, it should mean the harp is a emblem everyone can get behind.

[johnnycool]

Just to throw in my penny's worth as a SF voter...

And here's mine as a Unonist (though not a DUPer).

Anyhow, I was chatting earlier this evening to another Unionist (but no hardliner) and we both agreed, what must eg the mother of a dead hunger striker, or a volunteer who was shot on an operation etc, think upon seeing the recent activities oif SF?

I mean, just what the fcuk was the "armed struggle" for? So  Michelle O'Neill could fly over to Westminster to be seen shaking hands with the Royal Family etc, surrounded by British servicemen and women in unifoirm?

Before flying back and berating the DUP for not joining in helping them both administer British Rule in Ireland?

It will never be comfortable watching SF politicians shaking hands with British monarchs while we remain partitioned, but that being said, it's abundantly clear why they did it.

"Never comfortable" is it?

I'm surprised any self-respecting Republican - the clue's in the name btw - could keep from throwing up at the very sight, but no matter.

And as for "why they did it", that's bloody obvious - they're just playing politics. Which in itself might be fine - after all they're politicians these days - but to what political end?

To put one over the DUP/TUV etc, while stealing the SDLP's clothes etc and to maximise the Nationalist vote at the next election, yeah, I can see all that. But to borrow a soccer analogy, that's all just fannying about outside the penalty area, playing neat tiki-taka to entertain the fans in the stand, without ever getting a shot on target, never mind scoring a goal, the "target" being a United Ireland.

Or so I thought.

They have been getting lauded from (almost) all directions for how they've handled the last few days - most notably from middle grounders who are the very people that need to be brought on board for what is now an inevitable border poll and like all SF does - it's geared towards a successful border poll.

Christ! Do you really believe that?

Were I a Shinner, positively the last thing I'd want would be a border poll. I mean, why suffer the humiliation of losing?

For if anything, this week's activities have made a UI vote further away, not closer, on two counts.

1. "Normalising" politics in NI does nothing for Republicanism, since the closer NI gets to normality, the less pressing the need of Nationalists for a UI.

2. And even if they can maximise their share of the Nationalist/Republican vote, as I've said on here before,  a referendum is a very different proposition from an election (see eg Scotland, Brexit). And for SF to get over the 42-43% level at which Nationalism has plateaued in every election this century, they need to start persuading a significant section of the Unionist community to cease to be Unionists, reject their life-long identity and vote for something they've opposed for the last, well, forever.

And on that score, the DUP/TUV hardliners are (predictably enough) spitting feathers, while the moderates remain unmoved, seeing it all for what it actually is i.e. shameless, cynical politicking. But either way, it doesn't make any of them less of a Unionist.

As I say, I take no pleasure seeing them greet monarchs, but the reality is that it's nothing new nowadays. No existing SF voters are going to get too annoyed today at Michelle O'Neill for shaking a royal's hand. Why would they? She didn't break any new ground. SF politicians, Michelle included, have been meeting british royals for the last ten years ever since Martin McGuinness took the step first back and shook Lizzie's hand in 2012.

Seems to me that SF have had everything to gain and nothing really to lose this last week and that's how they've played it.

Nothing to lose bar their dignity and nothing to gain, full stop.

Seems to me that it wasn't just the Queen who died last week, but another little bit of Irish Republicanism.

But while we  Unionists can proclaim: "The Queen is dead, Long Live the King", what has SF got to offer next?

Taking their seats in Westminster?

Hell, why not - they've sold out on just about everything else!

Unionism is really struggling to process the normalisation of SF by everyone other than them and the straw clutching will go on.

In the meantime the battle for the middle ground in NI goes on as it is they who will decide the constitutional question when it comes and it's coming.

[imtommygunn]

It is high time the DUP's links with loyalist paramilitaries have the light shown on them too. The likes of that LCC etc need to be seriously examined and why any political party wold have any links to them. People are voting for the DUP because of SF and their paramilitary links by voting for another party with paramilitary links. This really does need exposed.

[yellowcard]

It's a mad world we live in these days when Unionists berate SF for not being Republican enough. 🤷‍♂️

It does make a pleasant change from the lundification of any of their own people who consider giving even an inch though. Lundifying the perceived opposition now is a new tactic!   

[Rossfan]

I saw the Irish harp on the Queen's coffin and wondered what that was all about. Got this from wiki:
—
the flag is divided into four quadrants. The first and fourth quadrants represent the ancient Kingdom of England and contain three gold lions (or "leopards"), passant guardant on a red field; the second quadrant represents the ancient Kingdom of Scotland and contains a red lion rampant on a gold field; the third quadrant represents the ancient Kingdom of Ireland and contains a version of the gold harp from the coat of arms of Ireland on a blue field. The inclusion of the harp remains an issue for some in Ireland. In 1937 Éamon de Valera, then Taoiseach, asked Dominions Secretary Malcolm MacDonald if the harp quarter could be removed from the Royal Standard on the grounds that the Irish people had not given their consent to the Irish emblem being included. The request was denied and the harp remains 
—

Wales obviously not recognised