A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[Angelo]

I've read the last page or two and I'm just trying to get into the mindset of working people who would prefer to continue under a FF/FG government.

Because they would like to continue working?

All the ones working for multi nationals certainly plus their dependents plus all those who work for companies supplying multi nationals etc.
Not much point voting Labour or SDP any more, unless they join forces and get a youthful vigorous leadership.
Even then they will only be to make up numbers in a Coalition.

Maybe they should stop focusing on training people to work for multinationals and refocus on training sufficient numbers to work in healthcare?

How much in direct taxation to the multinationals contribute every year? Where does that money go? To the bank accounts of private landlords? To the bank accounts of building firms who don't pay tax in the free state to build the most expensive children's hospital in the world?

[Angelo]

FF were in power in the mid noughties when the economy crashed but none of the parties (including SF) were saying stop and in some cases were criticising the government for not spending more. SF want to use a so called wealth tax and the apple court case money to generate the funds for their other policies. Crazy stuff.

Unfortunately SF will likely be in power after the next election for the simple reason they aren't FF/FG which is a concern for anyone working for a mutli- national company in this country

You're rabbitting on about SF not stopping the government from destroying the economy? SF were a fringe party who were in opposition and no say in government decisions. It's an utterly absurd argument. Do the government not deserve accountability here?

FFG are a concern for anyone under 35 or couples or families earning under 80k a year in the state and cannot get a mortgage or afford private healthcare which represents a sizable amount of the electorate. That is exactly why SF are surging down south because FF/FG policies have brough the state to its knees.

[five points]

Sinn Fein supported the bank guarantee. They also supported the huge rises in public spending that bankrupted the public finances in 2008, and the clampdown on house building that caused the housing crisis.

They subsequently rejected the bank guarantee when more information came out about it.

Public spending didn't bankrupt the country. Financial regulation of the banks bankrupted the country.

It was the financial policies of FF/FG that bankrupted the country, ran the public health sector down, hawked off state resources and services to the private sector for a song and created a homelessness crisis by allowing vulture funds and private wealthy investors to come in and buy up residential property by the droves and then they failed to and continue to fail to regulate the rental market.

Blaming SF for the financial crisis when they never had power is some insane sort of windmilling effort to deflect away from those who had power and unequivocally responsible.

The damage was done with the bank guarantee by the time Sinn Féin copped on to their error. That admission shattered the myth that they'd be any better with the public purse than FF or FG have been.

And of course the public spending splurge of the previous 5-7 years did indeed bankrupt the country. The financial regulation disaster merely added another chunk onto the national debt that was already spiralling out of control.

A lot of the money that was blown in those 5-7 years went on the health service, and SF at the time kept crying that they weren't blowing half enough on it.

[Angelo]

Sinn Fein supported the bank guarantee. They also supported the huge rises in public spending that bankrupted the public finances in 2008, and the clampdown on house building that caused the housing crisis.

They subsequently rejected the bank guarantee when more information came out about it.

Public spending didn't bankrupt the country. Financial regulation of the banks bankrupted the country.

It was the financial policies of FF/FG that bankrupted the country, ran the public health sector down, hawked off state resources and services to the private sector for a song and created a homelessness crisis by allowing vulture funds and private wealthy investors to come in and buy up residential property by the droves and then they failed to and continue to fail to regulate the rental market.

Blaming SF for the financial crisis when they never had power is some insane sort of windmilling effort to deflect away from those who had power and unequivocally responsible.

The damage was done with the bank guarantee by the time Sinn Féin copped on to their error. That admission shattered the myth that they'd be any better with the public purse than FF or FG have been.

And of course the public spending splurge of the previous 5-7 years did indeed bankrupt the country. The financial regulation disaster merely added another chunk onto the national debt that was already spiralling out of control.

A lot of the money that was blown in those 5-7 years went on the health service, and SF at the time kept crying that they weren't blowing half enough on it.

Once again, public spending wasn't the issue. Lack of regulation on the banking sector was. You're talking in hypotheticals. I'm talking in fact.

FFG have a track record proven in destroying the economy.

[five points]

Once again, public spending wasn't the issue. Lack of regulation on the banking sector was. You're talking in hypotheticals. I'm talking in fact.

FFG have a track record proven in destroying the economy.

Our current account deficit was 7% of GNP in 2008, before a cent was paid off the banking sector debt. This was all to do with public spending.

The Shinners had no solutions then. They still have no solutions.

[Angelo]

Once again, public spending wasn't the issue. Lack of regulation on the banking sector was. You're talking in hypotheticals. I'm talking in fact.

FFG have a track record proven in destroying the economy.

Our current account deficit was 7% of GNP in 2008, before a cent was paid off the banking sector debt. This was all to do with public spending.

The Shinners had no solutions then. They still have no solutions.

Absolute nonsense.

Public spending again was not the issue, the collapse of the baking sector which had to be bailed out to the tune of €64bn was the problem, lumped on the tax payer for decades to come.

Now you could certainly raise issues on how FFG spend the taxpayers money. You have FFG currently breaking records on the world's most expensive childrens hospital that looks like will be years before completion, you have Larry Goodman being overpaid by €10m and the government refusing to take steps to reclaim the money and you have a family business of a FG TD receiving a government contract for €3.2m to recruit health workers on zero hour contracts......

But you seem more intent of discussing the opposition that the parties who consistently screw the citizen over - quite a bizarre outlook.

[five points]

Once again, public spending wasn't the issue. Lack of regulation on the banking sector was. You're talking in hypotheticals. I'm talking in fact.

FFG have a track record proven in destroying the economy.

Our current account deficit was 7% of GNP in 2008, before a cent was paid off the banking sector debt. This was all to do with public spending.

The Shinners had no solutions then. They still have no solutions.

Absolute nonsense.

Public spending again was not the issue, the collapse of the baking sector which had to be bailed out to the tune of €64bn was the problem, lumped on the tax payer for decades to come.

Now you could certainly raise issues on how FFG spend the taxpayers money. You have FFG currently breaking records on the world's most expensive childrens hospital that looks like will be years before completion, you have Larry Goodman being overpaid by €10m and the government refusing to take steps to reclaim the money and you have a family business of a FG TD receiving a government contract for €3.2m to recruit health workers on zero hour contracts......

But you seem more intent of discussing the opposition that the parties who consistently screw the citizen over - quite a bizarre outlook.

Do you even know what a current account deficit is?

[Angelo]

Once again, public spending wasn't the issue. Lack of regulation on the banking sector was. You're talking in hypotheticals. I'm talking in fact.

FFG have a track record proven in destroying the economy.

Our current account deficit was 7% of GNP in 2008, before a cent was paid off the banking sector debt. This was all to do with public spending.

The Shinners had no solutions then. They still have no solutions.

Absolute nonsense.

Public spending again was not the issue, the collapse of the baking sector which had to be bailed out to the tune of €64bn was the problem, lumped on the tax payer for decades to come.

Now you could certainly raise issues on how FFG spend the taxpayers money. You have FFG currently breaking records on the world's most expensive childrens hospital that looks like will be years before completion, you have Larry Goodman being overpaid by €10m and the government refusing to take steps to reclaim the money and you have a family business of a FG TD receiving a government contract for €3.2m to recruit health workers on zero hour contracts......

But you seem more intent of discussing the opposition that the parties who consistently screw the citizen over - quite a bizarre outlook.

Do you even know what a current account deficit is?

And once again, I implore on you that the state had to bail the banks out for €64bn.

You seem to be engaging in any sort of mental gymnastics you can not to hold the parties in government as repsonsible for the crisis they oversaw. The collapse of the banking sector was the cause of the financial crisis. The government did not regulate the baking sector and then decided to have the tax payer pay for the bondholder.

Those facts leave it a bit awkward for you to spin it onto the opposition parties though so that's why you are windmilling.

[five points]

And once again, I implore on you that the state had to bail the banks out for €64bn.

You seem to be engaging in any sort of mental gymnastics you can not to hold the parties in government as repsonsible for the crisis they oversaw. The collapse of the banking sector was the cause of the financial crisis. The government did not regulate the baking sector and then decided to have the tax payer pay for the bondholder.

Those facts leave it a bit awkward for you to spin it onto the opposition parties though so that's why you are windmilling.

We know that there is a monstrous national debt problem that the banking bailouts worsened.

But there was also another problem of runaway public spending that was financed in the boom years by runaway tax receipts. Once the 2008 crash hit, the tax receipts dried up and the spending became unaffordable. The result was years of public sector pay cuts and austerity.

The Shinners and Fine Gael contributed to both problems, even if neither of them were in power in the decade prior to 2008.

[Angelo]

We know that there is a monstrous national debt problem that the banking bailouts worsened.

But there was also another problem of runaway public spending that was financed in the boom years by runaway tax receipts. Once the 2008 crash hit, the tax receipts dried up and the spending became unaffordable. The result was years of public sector pay cuts and austerity.

The Shinners and Fine Gael contributed to both problems, even if neither of them were in power in the decade prior to 2008.

What you are saying is absolutely risible.

SF had 4 seats out of 166 in the Free State General Election in 2007.

4 seats and you are blaming them for the policies and governmental decisions that led to the financial crisis that broke out in 2008? A fringe party with 2.4% of Dail seats being blamed for government decisions.

What you are saying insults people's intelligence, it's Comical Ali level behaviour.

It's like blaming PBP for FG's economic policies in the last government, utter insanity.

[Applesisapples]

Just a couple of random comments. Firstly on being a Nationalist. It is possible to be a Nationalist and not want a UI without guarantees that your healthcare and financial future is secure. these are not contradictory positions and are reasonable. They will also need addressed if a vote for a UI is to be won. Secondly we Irish are great at blaming the Catholic Church for all the social woes of the country in. the last century. This conservatism was not just the preserve of Catholicism, Protestant Churches in the North were not dissimilar in their hold on personal values and morals and there are many examples of other countries at that time in the vice of conservative christianity, and that's before we even mention islam. As with everything it is imo not helpful looking back at history through the prism of today, rather look forward.

[Angelo]

Just a couple of random comments. Firstly on being a Nationalist. It is possible to be a Nationalist and not want a UI without guarantees that your healthcare and financial future is secure. these are not contradictory positions and are reasonable. They will also need addressed if a vote for a UI is to be won. Secondly we Irish are great at blaming the Catholic Church for all the social woes of the country in. the last century. This conservatism was not just the preserve of Catholicism, Protestant Churches in the North were not dissimilar in their hold on personal values and morals and there are many examples of other countries at that time in the vice of conservative christianity, and that's before we even mention islam. As with everything it is imo not helpful looking back at history through the prism of today, rather look forward.

A united Ireland should be a new Ireland, a break from two failed states. That is the selling point of it.

Of course you have an elite ruling class in each state who really do oppose it.

[Rossfan]

Won't vote for a UI unless someone "guarantees that my healthcare and financial future is secure".

I've heard it all now

Who was it called ye "spongers" years ago??

[Angelo]

Won't vote for a UI unless someone "guarantees that my healthcare and financial future is secure".

I've heard it all now

Who was it called ye "spongers" years ago??

Adlof Rossfan here telling people they don't deserve any form of healthcare.

I really do have to wonder sometimes.

[five points]

We know that there is a monstrous national debt problem that the banking bailouts worsened.

But there was also another problem of runaway public spending that was financed in the boom years by runaway tax receipts. Once the 2008 crash hit, the tax receipts dried up and the spending became unaffordable. The result was years of public sector pay cuts and austerity.

The Shinners and Fine Gael contributed to both problems, even if neither of them were in power in the decade prior to 2008.

What you are saying is absolutely risible.

SF had 4 seats out of 166 in the Free State General Election in 2007.

4 seats and you are blaming them for the policies and governmental decisions that led to the financial crisis that broke out in 2008? A fringe party with 2.4% of Dail seats being blamed for government decisions.

What you are saying insults people's intelligence, it's Comical Ali level behaviour.

It's like blaming PBP for FG's economic policies in the last government, utter insanity.

So what? Fine Gael were decimated in the 2002 election and still were a miserable minority after 2007. Both parties not only supported the bank guarantee, but they also supported Fianna Fáil's  & the Greens' spending splurge, complaining only that they weren't spending enough. Labour to their credit opposed the bank guarantee but were also roaring for more and more money to be spent everywhere and anywhere.

All 5 parties have blood on their hands. All are part of the same rotten political cartel. And all 5 will between them wreck a united Ireland if they ever get a chance.