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It's that time of the year to look and make suggestions into how we can improve Laois Football. One of my ways of improving standards within the county would be  to introduce two divisional teams into the Laois SFC. These teams would consist of players from Junior and intermediate clubs . The two divisional teams would be North and South Laois . I know that this system has a lot of possible negatives including organisation and fixture congestation but I believe that the pros outweigh the cons. Junior and Internediate club players get greater exposure and the standard should rise within the SFC. I'll just illustrate what these divisional teams could potentially look like in 2016
South Laois (Timahoe, Spink, Barrowhouse, park/Ratheniska, The Harps, Borris in Ossory , , Kilcotton etc)
1. Eoin Culliton ( Timahoe)
2. Joe O Connor (Timahoe
3 Mark Delaney (Park)
4. Benny Greene (Park)
5 Eamon Jackman (Spink)
6 Damien O'Connor (Timahoe)
7.Joe Murphy (Barrowhouse)
8. Brendan Quigley (Timahoe)
9 Seamus Dwyer (Spink)
10 Sean Ramsbottom
11 Cha Dwyer (Spink)
12 Brian Daly (Barrowhouse)
13 Damien Carter (Spink)
14 Kieran Delaney (Park)
15Ruari O'Connor (Timahoe)

While North Laois (Courtwood, Annanough, O'Dempseys, Kilcavan ,Roseinallis, Castletwon/Slieve Bloom , The Rock etc)


would have players like
John Scully
Robbie Kehoe
Conor Meredith
Rory Stapleton
Mick Bermingham
Ronan Gorry
Simon Miller
Michael Finlay
Barry Kelly
Niall Donoher
Luke Doyle
O'Halloran
.

I'd like to hear people's opinions on this and if they think they can name North and South Laois teams go ahead as my knowledge of Junior and Intermediate football is very limited.

Great idea, I would go one step further and have a third team called mid laois. This team would pick from Timahoe, spink, park ratheniska, harps, borris in ossorry etc, north laois would be courtwood, vicarstown, kilcavan, o'dempseys, the rock while instead of south laois I would call the final team east laois and pick from barrowhouse, crettyard, ballylynan. I know the last two are currently senior but I think this should be reduced to 12 and maybe even 10.

It'll never fly, I'm afraid. It's a pity that lads like Donal Miller or Damien Carter or Niall Donoher will possibly never play club senior football. When 3 clubs tried to facilitate that a few years back, they got no support from the county board or indeed many of the senior clubs.

By right, for a county the size of Laois, there should be only maybe 8 senior football clubs. If the rest then wanted to form 3 or 4 decent area teams we could have a proper SFC.

In a county as small as Laois every player should have an avenue to play senior football. The standard would be much higher.

At the moment we have some lads in senior clubs who couldn't give a toss but a few players are keeping them up
and we have some really committed players at junior and intermediate level who don't have enough talented players with them to bring them to senior level.

I think having 3 or 4 area teams would add a renewed interest to the senior championship.
I would relegate 8 teams from senior and then introduce 4 area teams. Senior championship could then have 2 groups of 6 with the top 2 in each group playing the semi finals. Have 2 area teams in each group. Play the group stages outside OMP to create a better atmosphere. We need to relegate that many to make the area teams strong enough.
Interest in football in Laois is at a very low ebb. Small changes will do nothing.

County Board too inept to think up something like this. Even when it's drafted as a proposal and put under their noses, they can't see it.

The SFC should be cut...by 4 or 6 or 8. At least two divisional sides or a few amalgamated teams (ie new clubs) should join the ranks. Get rid of the deadwood from the SFC and make the wannastays become wannabes. Make that cut in one year.....if it's 8, you take the 8 quarterfinalists. If it's 4, you take the 4 relegation teams.

I just don't see it happening though. It's too far outside the spectrum of safe-thinking.

South Laois - BallyroanAbbey

Quote from: Saint75 on November 16, 2015, 11:51:58 PM
I think having 3 or 4 area teams would add a renewed interest to the senior championship.
I would relegate 8 teams from senior and then introduce 4 area teams. Senior championship could then have 2 groups of 6 with the top 2 in each group playing the semi finals. Have 2 area teams in each group. Play the group stages outside OMP to create a better atmosphere. We need to relegate that many to make the area teams strong enough.
Interest in football in Laois is at a very low ebb. Small changes will do nothing.

Agree with all of this except maybe having groups of 6. Too many games to play when you factor in home clubs playing intermediate/junior, hurling and the intercounty scene.

12 is probably the right number of teams but how would you structure it?

Kerry are in the process of reducing the number of senior club teams from 11 to 8. They have also 8 divisional teams. The system allows every player of ability to play senior football within the county. Yet in Laois,  we have 16 teams and a lot of good players still not playing senior. I think 12 senior teams and 4 area teams would make an interesting Laois competition played within the current format. The county board have to lead on this.

When Kerry have as many All Irelands as Laois have, then we will pay attention to what they are doing.....  ;)

Reducing the Hurling to 8 teams, despite some challenges, has done wonders to the standard of club hurling and most championship games are very competitive. It is a no brainer, especially when one club completely dominates (to their credit). The problem is not just with the county board but small minded club men with voting rights and entrenched outdated views.

I suppose it's up to people who want divisional teams to canvass clubs for their support. For many it's a big step particularly if their club is going to lose out. It would have to be sold to club members and lets face it many would turn it down straight away but other more progressive members would vote for it. It's not unlike any other vote or 'election'.

The benefits have to be shown to be worth the change so that's where the convincing has to start - with the benefits of something new.

There might be some breaking news about Divisional style teams for the year ahead. It may be possible providing, the Co board gives permissions, for players in intermediate and junior clubs to play for a senior club while also playing with their own club. The only difficulty is that such a senior team if it wins senior championship can't take part in Leinster club. Mind you I don't think that will bother many football teams considering the dominance of Portlaoise.  You could have Emo/ Courtwood, Stradbally Parish Gaels and Mountmellick Parish Gaels, Heath Gaels, St Josephs/ Barrowhouse among others.

This won't be happening

Too many stubborn old men poking their noses in for anything revolutionary to happen in Laois. Football is at its lowest ebb ever in Laois, and fellas are walking around happy out. We are scraping the barrel looking for anyone to come in to the county set up and in all honesty, we're wasting our time. It's going to be a bad year for Laois. Relegation is a certainty and we may or may not beat Wicklow, but it doesn't matter anyway because we'll get trimmed by Dublin and bow out meekly in the qualifiers. League club football is a total disaster and for as long as they want it, Portlaoise will win the Championship. We think we have it all sussed in Laois, but in reality we are rudderless and fading rapidly.

So here's to a happy and successful New Year. Have a good one everybody

I've also heard this rumour that something is happening as regards to divisional teams/Parish teams in the coming weeks. I think they county board now recognise that something needs to be done to stop Laois football from stagnating . Still I won't count my Chickens just yet. I have heard these rumours before.

Quote from: Downtheroad on December 28, 2015, 09:00:26 PM
There might be some breaking news about Divisional style teams for the year ahead. It may be possible providing, the Co board gives permissions, for players in intermediate and junior clubs to play for a senior club while also playing with their own club. The only difficulty is that such a senior team if it wins senior championship can't take part in Leinster club. Mind you I don't think that will bother many football teams considering the dominance of Portlaoise. You could have Emo/ Courtwood, Stradbally Parish Gaels and Mountmellick Parish Gaels, Heath Gaels, St Josephs/ Barrowhouse among others.

Apparently Emo have an altogether different plan!
And it doesn't involve their neighbours!
Anybody else heard this?

[/quote]

Apparently Emo have an altogether different plan!
And it doesn't involve their neighbours!
Anybody else heard this?
[/quote]

Clonaslee Keyser?

Slieve Bloom!

Slieve Bloom  linking up with Emo is doing the rounds. It won't be a runner for football if Castletown put in a football team as if there is a football team in a parish Slieve Bloom will have to stay put. Mind you the group status team could allow for junior and intermediate players to play outside the parish. I think the biggest problem and the reason why Ballyroan abu is almost certainly right in saying it won't happen  are situations where intermediate and junior players will want to cherry pick their group team which can make the whole thing unmanageable.

Quote from: Downtheroad on December 29, 2015, 06:21:18 PM
Slieve Bloom  linking up with Emo is doing the rounds. It won't be a runner for football if Castletown put in a football team as if there is a football team in a parish Slieve Bloom will have to stay put.

No idea if Castletown have a football team or not but I was talking to someone about this and they pointed out that if this was to happen then Emo would potentially have players involved as follows;

Emo Senior Football
Emo Junior B Football
Emo Courtwood The Rock Minor Football
Emo Courtwood The Rock U21 Football
Na Fianna Minor Hurling (Mmellick, Clonaslee, Ballyfin, Emo, Courtwood)
Na Fianna U21 Hurling (Mmellick, Clonaslee, Ballyfin, Emo, Courtwood)
Slieve Bloom Junior Hurling

The point he made was as follows- How could a fixtures programme function for league & Championship with all the crossovers as above. This would have huge implications for the opponents of any of the 7 clubs interlinked above.
For example the same player, at 17 or 18 years of age (during the league) could be playing ACFL 1, ACFL 5 with Emo, MFL with Emo Courtwood, MHL with Na Fianna & ACHL 3 with Slieve Bloom.
Thats without mentioning the other 5 clubs involved in the already established amalgamations

Sensible divisional amalgamations might be a good idea but be careful what you wish for. Already lots of games are moved and on hold (see the U21 championships in both codes 2015) as a result of the amount of clubs involved with the likes of Na Fianna.

It would have massive fixture implications for all clubs competing in any of the grades above.

Of course it is all rumour, but it would be interesting to see how the county board would handle it!

Quote from: Downtheroad on December 29, 2015, 06:21:18 PM
I think the biggest problem and the reason why Ballyroan abu is almost certainly right in saying it won't happen  are situations where intermediate and junior players will want to cherry pick their group team which can make the whole thing unmanageable.

If this happens there will be a host of clubs becoming one code clubs and allowing their players to travel as isolated players to play with whatever club they wish to play for. There doesn't seem to be many restrictions on where you can go (how far or across how many other teams etc).
In the past few years I have seen;
Clough Ballacolla hurler play with Annanough football
St Josephs footballer play juvenile hurling with The Harps Gaels
Castletown & Borris in Ossory hurlers play football with Mountmellick

That is all well and good but if for example a Clough Ballacolla SHC game clashed with an Annanough IFC game in the fixture schedule. Does the player have to chose? Does one game get moved? If it's the latter, then the opponents involved in the moved game are potentially aggrieved- work commitments, holidays, people working away midweek etc.

The movement of isolated players and the formation of divisional juvenile teams among a whole host of clubs (Na Fianna again for example) already must cause fixture headaches.

It is also my understanding of the above that there would be nothing to stop several players from Clough Ballacolla for example going to several different football clubs? Is this correct I wonder?

I tend to disagree with this notion of seeding players into established Senior clubs.. I do realise that this can occur within one code clubs who have players who wish to play the other. I believe the Emo situation is more  their pursuit of one player rather than a solution to the lack of competition in Laois football. Will Emo really look after all the interests of Slieve Bloom footballers? . I somehow doubt it. I believe the only solution is for Divisional teams be that 2,3 or 4 teams supported initially by the county board to be created and to reduce the number of Senior clubs in Laois football down to 8 (Obviously over a period of time).This as a result will keep the championship strong by making the clubs competitive and it will also strengthen the divisional sides. It will be tough to implement, it will not be sucessful straight out of the gate but if it was allowed to settle and become an embedded fabric of Laois football it will have a chance. However will the county board be prepared to rock the boat , I doubt it. Portlaoise I believe were one of a small number of Senior clubs to support the last great push for this showing us that they believe they need competition within Laois to achieve their aims. I hear this rumour of seeding players from junior and Intermediate clubs into established senior teams is problematic and extremely messy. Junior and Intermediate clubs essentially become feeder teams. Timahoe men playing for Stradbally under the Stradbally banner not a parish outfit. It doesn't sound right to me but if these rumours are to be believed this is what we will see. The senior clubs of Laois will have to take in the bigger picture. Laois football is at a very low ebb both at underage and Senior level and something needs to be done and done properly.

Your wasting alot of effort on unworkable divisional teams.  Emo & Slieve Bloom is a non runner.  Much more likely at a point in the future is the Rock & Emo playing together at senior level.  These are two teams who have  natural linkage.  Ballyroan & Abbeyleix works because of location & history.  Even with that it's extremely tricky as you can have young players playing 5 or 6 grades of Hurling & Football.  The Rock & Emo would be workable if they overcome their differences.

I think this conversation has changed over the last couple of weeks and I'm less comfortable with the way this could be heading.

A proposal went to the Laois GAA convention a couple of years from Kyle to allow their players play as 'isolated' players on senior hurling teams but still remain as Kyle players and could compete at junior/intermediate level. This was to be brought to Croke Park and examined but I don't think anything was ever really done about it. I understand that Ballypickas have pushed this idea more recently and it has gained some traction at county board level. I have complete respect for both these small clubs and with these individual instances you can really see why this proposal could save them losing players as happened them recently (Darren Gilmartin to Camross being the most obvious example) and is likely to happen again next year. Both Ballypickas and Kyle are facing losing top underage players next year.

I'm not au fait with all the bye-laws that Laois GAA have or could pass but I think it might be a stretch for them to introduce this without it becoming a sanctioned GAA rule. Or am I missing something? There's obviously no precedent there or we would already have seen some movement.

My view on divisional teams is that it should give players with no realistic option of playing senior football/hurling the chance to do so. I am less convinced of the merits (or indeed the fairness) of established senior clubs cherry-picking players from any junior/intermediate club to boost their short-term chances.
I have no gripe with the Emo club but I would be uncomfortable with this proposed link with Slieve Bloom, though I must add I know and have heard nothing about it save what I've read here. If clubs want to bring isolated players (like Darren Maher who played for Annanough when Clough/Ballacolla had no football team) then the rules are already in place to do so. Mountmellick do it with hurlers from Emo; The Harps have done it with footballers from Rathdoweny/Errill and CB so it is not as such, uncommon.

The proposed Divisional team from a couple of years ago left a sour taste in the mouth of some football clubs. I understand the proposal was broadly supported by the hurling clubs (who lent their support or abstained) but few senior football clubs supported it. Fair enough; their perogative.
I anticipate it will be revisited in due course but there are other less radical things that could happen before then.

The argument can logically be made that Laois isn't necessarily big enough to support area teams. The system in Kerry works geographically and it makes sense with the clubs involved. It might not definitely translate here. Yes, look into it. Trial it. But let's not pin all our hopes on it.

In Laois, we have parishes that are just too small to support two clubs. We have instances of clubs pooling together at underage level and then disbanding and going their separate way after minor or u21. I believe this is the conversation that needs to be had. Reducing the number of teams in the Senior Football Championship is a matter of urgency. Then, we might actually see a scenario where if clubs want to be genuinely competitive again at the very top level then they might need to look at the models of Borris and Kilcotton or Rathdoweny and Errill.

Quote from: merman on December 30, 2015, 06:10:48 PM

In Laois, we have parishes that are just too small to support two clubs. We have instances of clubs pooling together at underage level and then disbanding and going their separate way after minor or u21. I believe this is the conversation that needs to be had. Reducing the number of teams in the Senior Football Championship is a matter of urgency. Then, we might actually see a scenario where if clubs want to be genuinely competitive again at the very top level then they might need to look at the models of Borris and Kilcotton or Rathdoweny and Errill.

Agreed.
Sort this first.

Lads some facts need to be stated here before you go any further with this topic.
Rule 3.19 (m) (i) and (ii) of the Official Guide Part 1, 2015

3.19 (m) (i) To allow Junior and Intermediate players of Clubs, including players of Clubs unable to field Junior and/or Intermediate teams, to play for Divisional or Group Senior teams

(ii)To allow Junior and Intermediate players of Clubs, including players of Clubs unable to field Junior and Intermediate teams, to play for Group Intermediate teams.
Arrangements shall be subject to annual review by the County Committee.
Players by so playing in these Divisional or Group teams shall not lose their Championship status.

As you can see from the above a player from a Junior or Intermediate club can play with a Senior club (inside or outside their parish) making that Senior team a group or divisional team which will require a name change (such as Gaels etc) and that team would be unable to play in Leinster if they were to win the championship.

Quote from: Pat Spillall on December 31, 2015, 11:36:20 AM
Lads some facts need to be stated here before you go any further with this topic.
Rule 3.19 (m) (i) and (ii) of the Official Guide Part 1, 2015

3.19 (m) (i) To allow Junior and Intermediate players of Clubs, including players of Clubs unable to field Junior and/or Intermediate teams, to play for Divisional or Group Senior teams

(ii)To allow Junior and Intermediate players of Clubs, including players of Clubs unable to field Junior and Intermediate teams, to play for Group Intermediate teams.
Arrangements shall be subject to annual review by the County Committee.
Players by so playing in these Divisional or Group teams shall not lose their Championship status.

As you can see from the above a player from a Junior or Intermediate club can play with a Senior club (inside or outside their parish) making that Senior team a group or divisional team which will require a name change (such as Gaels etc) and that team would be unable to play in Leinster if they were to win the championship.

One very important fact you ommitted is that any such proposed affiliation is subject to County Board/County Committee approval!

There used to be more of these affiliations, Annawood was one, Arles/Kileen played with Killeshin and Barrowhouse as a Gaels team when Kileen were Intermediate , Ballyroan Gaels prob last and only team to win a Senior championship? After Ballyroan Gaels won the championship has there been a combination team involved?.

Tinnahinch, Ballinakill Gaels, Castletown Gaels, St. Kierans, Rosenallis/Mountmellick/Ballyfin hurled senior as a combined team at some point in the 1990s.

Have to agree, that the move for Slieve Bloom is not to accomodate those who want to play football in Slieve Bloom but the pursuit of one very skillful player.

Slieve Bloom were interested in getting involved in Ballyfin Football, as they had been at juvenile levels previously, but this was a non-runner due to Ballyfin's hurling commitments.

Reportedly 8/9 players going to Emo from Slieve Bloom, all but confirmed is the word inside Emo & Slieve Bloom

I can't imagine one Slieve Bloom player making the Emo team. Ben Conroy might but he'll have a lot of hurling commitments.

Quote from: SCFC on January 04, 2016, 01:44:40 PM
I can't imagine one Slieve Bloom player making the Emo team. Ben Conroy might but he'll have a lot of hurling commitments.

He and his brother Gavin are the only ones who might. Ben, if available, would definitely add something to the Emo attack. Good pace, can kick off both feet. Was always one of the best footballers on the underage Laois teams, up until he chose to follow hurling solely.

They would also pick up a few decent minor footballers, Ben's younger brother being an obvious example.

Quote from: merman on January 04, 2016, 04:05:43 PM
They would also pick up a few decent minor footballers, Ben's younger brother being an obvious example.

This is where it might become complicated?
If Castletown or Castletown Slieve Bloom (as their juvenile club is called) were to have a minor football team how could players play minor with Emo? Or if they could, would players be playing together at U16 level in football for Castletown Slieve Bloom and then potentially playing against each other at Minor football?

So, would you have Slieve Bloom playing hurling with Castletown at minor level and Emo with Na Fianna?
And then Slieve Bloom playing football at minor level with Emo Courtwood The Rock and not with Castletown?
And would you have Emo playing football at minor level as part of Emo Courtwood The Rock Slieve Bloom and not with Sarsfield Gaels?
Who becomes eligible to play with who?!



I don't see this as a join up or amalgamation. It is a club offering (or agreeing?) to accomodate "isolated players" who have no football on offer to them in their own club?

To add to the confusion,  technically Emo and Courtwood play as isolated players with The Rock which is in Mountmellick parish. Actually if Castletown put in an adult football team , Brendan Reddin won't be able to play with Mountmellick which won't go down well. The bottom line is that there won't be any Slieve Bloom players going anywhere if Castletown put in a football team.

I understand the Reddins can play with Mountmellick under the parentage rule.

approx. 5 years ago I was amongst the committee which drew up the designated areas for all the clubs in laois. there was much argument at the time about parishes and boundaries. I know for a fact that the three smallest junior hurling clubs, kyle, slieve bloom and ballypickas refused to be pigeon holed into one parish, as they held their ground on the fact that traditionally they sourced their membership and players from 2 or 3 straddling parishes. from memory ballypickas and slieve bloom, on articles accepted by the laois executive at the time were granted territory in three different parishes. that particular "map" has not been altered in the interim. so the posters who would pigeon hole slieve bloom into castletown parish or ballypickas into ballyroan/abbeyleix simply do not know the existing situation. slieve bloom's juveniles may mostly play with castletown at underage level, this does not mean that slieve bloom is a castletown parish club. it's grounds may be within the parish, the allotted club territory is not exclusively within that one parish.

a second piece of information. central council passed into law a rule effective from the first of January 2014, that from that date onwards, players from an Exclusively Hurling or Football Club, could only play the other code with a club that was Exclusive in the opposite code.

the above two items are the facts as exist now, as opposed to plenty of opinions ignoring gaa law.


as and from 2014, if you play hurling with an exclusively hurling club, for example in laois, kyle, clonad, trumera and now slieve bloom, and should you wish to kick adult football in laois, your options are limited to a handful of exclusive football Only clubs.

I would not have thought that slieve bloom had much in the way of talented footballers, excuse my ignorance, if they do, and they want to play football at adult level, then their options looking from a geographic perspective(ruling out the Carlow side of the county), would be The Rock, Port, O Dempseys, Courtwood, Annanough, The Heath or Emo. logically looking at the lie of the land you could narrow it down to Emo or O Dempseys, and if they are really keen to play then let them at it. it is not as though we are talking about 4 or 5 inter county class players, at best I would guess a few squad club players.

Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on January 05, 2016, 04:50:11 AM
approx. 5 years ago I was amongst the committee which drew up the designated areas for all the clubs in laois. there was much argument at the time about parishes and boundaries. I know for a fact that the three smallest junior hurling clubs, kyle, slieve bloom and ballypickas refused to be pigeon holed into one parish, as they held their ground on the fact that traditionally they sourced their membership and players from 2 or 3 straddling parishes. from memory ballypickas and slieve bloom, on articles accepted by the laois executive at the time were granted territory in three different parishes. that particular "map" has not been altered in the interim. so the posters who would pigeon hole slieve bloom into castletown parish or ballypickas into ballyroan/abbeyleix simply do not know the existing situation. slieve bloom's juveniles may mostly play with castletown at underage level, this does not mean that slieve bloom is a castletown parish club. it's grounds may be within the parish, the allotted club territory is not exclusively within that one parish.

a second piece of information. central council passed into law a rule effective from the first of January 2014, that from that date onwards, players from an Exclusively Hurling or Football Club, could only play the other code with a club that was Exclusive in the opposite code.

the above two items are the facts as exist now, as opposed to plenty of opinions ignoring gaa law.


as and from 2014, if you play hurling with an exclusively hurling club, for example in laois, kyle, clonad, trumera and now slieve bloom, and should you wish to kick adult football in laois, your options are limited to a handful of exclusive football Only clubs.

I would not have thought that slieve bloom had much in the way of talented footballers, excuse my ignorance, if they do, and they want to play football at adult level, then their options looking from a geographic perspective(ruling out the Carlow side of the county), would be The Rock, Port, O Dempseys, Courtwood, Annanough, The Heath or Emo. logically looking at the lie of the land you could narrow it down to Emo or O Dempseys, and if they are really keen to play then let them at it. it is not as though we are talking about 4 or 5 inter county class players, at best I would guess a few squad club players.

Very clear and helpful post. I didn't know most of this!

Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on January 05, 2016, 04:50:11 AM
approx. 5 years ago I was amongst the committee which drew up the designated areas for all the clubs in laois. there was much argument at the time about parishes and boundaries. I know for a fact that the three smallest junior hurling clubs, kyle, slieve bloom and ballypickas refused to be pigeon holed into one parish, as they held their ground on the fact that traditionally they sourced their membership and players from 2 or 3 straddling parishes. from memory ballypickas and slieve bloom, on articles accepted by the laois executive at the time were granted territory in three different parishes. that particular "map" has not been altered in the interim. so the posters who would pigeon hole slieve bloom into castletown parish or ballypickas into ballyroan/abbeyleix simply do not know the existing situation. slieve bloom's juveniles may mostly play with castletown at underage level, this does not mean that slieve bloom is a castletown parish club. it's grounds may be within the parish, the allotted club territory is not exclusively within that one parish.

Interesting. I did not know this. Regarding "allotted club territory" would you mind explaining a couple of points.
You use the example of Slieve Bloom. I presume that they were granted "territory" in Castletown and two of Camross, Mountrath and Ballyfin.
Is it only particular pockets of these 3 parishes that are alotted to Slieve Bloom?
Were the 3 clubs into whose territory it could be argued they were encroaching given opportunity to make their cases?
Is this map available anywhere?

Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on January 05, 2016, 04:50:11 AM
a second piece of information. central council passed into law a rule effective from the first of January 2014, that from that date onwards, players from an Exclusively Hurling or Football Club, could only play the other code with a club that was Exclusive in the opposite code.

the above two items are the facts as exist now, as opposed to plenty of opinions ignoring gaa law.

as and from 2014, if you play hurling with an exclusively hurling club, for example in laois, kyle, clonad, trumera and now slieve bloom, and should you wish to kick adult football in laois, your options are limited to a handful of exclusive football Only clubs.

Didn't this rule exist well before 1/1/14. Isn't that why Mountmellick split into separate Hurling & Football clubs several years ago?

Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on January 05, 2016, 04:50:11 AM
I would not have thought that slieve bloom had much in the way of talented footballers, excuse my ignorance, if they do, and they want to play football at adult level, then their options looking from a geographic perspective(ruling out the Carlow side of the county), would be The Rock, Port, O Dempseys, Courtwood, Annanough, The Heath or Emo.

Would you include Mountmellick Football in this list?

Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on January 05, 2016, 04:50:11 AM
I would not have thought that slieve bloom had much in the way of talented footballers, excuse my ignorance, if they do, and they want to play football at adult level, then their options looking from a geographic perspective(ruling out the Carlow side of the county), would be The Rock, Port, O Dempseys, Courtwood, Annanough, The Heath or Emo. logically looking at the lie of the land you could narrow it down to Emo or O Dempseys, and if they are really keen to play then let them at it. it is not as though we are talking about 4 or 5 inter county class players, at best I would guess a few squad club players.

On the face of it, I don't think anyone has any problem with anyone playing.
I don't speak for anyone other than myself, but my issues would be based on the fixture chaos it creates and the knock on effect it has on other clubs not involved when games are held up/moved because of how difficult it is to facilitate such alliances.

hi keyser,

I had to check back on some locked away paperwork, it is not 5 years ago, actually 8 to 9 we are talking about.

there had been frequent comment on club boundaries and it was decided by the county executive to establish a task force to sort the thorny issue out. I was one of  6 on that taskforce. We initially sent out a circular to all adult clubs asking them to basically map out or state their perceived territories. Upon receiving the replies, "yield not an inch and take as much as you can" was the clear impression taken from the replies. Frequently we had clubs wishing on their territory maps to delete another club completely, that element surprised no one.
We also had a spanner thrown into  the works when Tom Cahill of Ballypickas asked us to get a clear definition of the phrase "parish" as referred to in places in the GAA rulebook.  Ballypickas wanted an answer from Croke Park as to whether the term "parish" referred to Catholic parish, Church Of Ireland parish, Presbyterian parish or other.....the chair of our task force was a strong and vocal advocate of the parish rule, so after a number of letters to Croke Park with no  satisfactory answer coming back, our group were given a meeting in Croke Park with the main rules people. That meeting defined the future.
We were basically told that under no circumstances could CLG come out and state that their basic structures(clubs) could be based on the geographical parishes of one specific church(ie the catholic church), as were the CLG/GAA to do so would leave it open to sectarian criticism. What we were told off the record, was the each county should try and keep to the local catholic parish boundaries, though this could never be set in stone. It was highlighted that each and every county had a little tweak on boundaries and in a nutshell a laois solution to a laois problem was the answer.

from that date, our committee chairman a long term advocate of the parish rule was crestfallen and to this day he has given up completely on promoting that idea as in the bigger picture, from a GAA political perspective the organisation will always refuse to associate with sectarianism and therefore official backing to a "catholic parish rule" will never ever be sanctioned.

after that, our task force went back to each and every club, trashed out their "boundaries", and in many cases we ended up with many clubs inside and outside of "catholic parishes" having overlapping territory. As Croke Park refused us permission to apply the parish rule, our hands were tied.

after this episode, the maps were drawn up and to this day they are still in some file in the O Moore Park offices. since then, advocates of the parish rule have got little hearing as they don't have any grounds, as a "Catholic" parish may have totally different boundaries to a "Church Of Ireland" parish in the same area, and as we are not entitled to carve up upon a perceived sectarian parish, the old chestnut of a laois solution to a laois problem is in play. I  must add that all that we dealt with fell under the umbrella of Adult Clubs, ie from Minor upwards, the juvenile set up is a totally different beast.

the rule about Exclusive clubs was altered a bit in 2014 as something happened in Cork in 2013 and Murphy got involved and a clear definitive rule was voted in.

I cannot answer you the question on Mountmellick, I do remember a few years ago they functioned in theory as Mountmellick Football and Mountmellick Hurling, supposedly as separate clubs when in effect it was all the one.......I have no idea if this is pertains.


on the final question of fixture chaos, get over it, it will be a problem that the fixtures committee will have to solve, in essence not that big a deal in the bigger scheme of things....and I say that as someone who has sat on fixtures committees within the county over a number of years.

Thanks for that info.
The specific question of the areas of where say Castletown & Slieve Blooms areas overlap or Camross & Slieve Bloom or Ballypickas & Abbeyleix.
Can players register with either/or as their first club?

Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on January 05, 2016, 04:50:11 AM
a second piece of information. central council passed into law a rule effective from the first of January 2014, that from that date onwards, players from an Exclusively Hurling or Football Club, could only play the other code with a club that was Exclusive in the opposite code.

If that's the case, why are the county board issuing declaration forms and I quote "for an Exclusive Club Player to Play other Code with a Dual Club" asking them to "Outline Reasons for why you are applying for Permission to play with a Dual Club"?

my memory is not good enough to answer that specific question about territory of individual clubs, I would suspect that there exists a number of juvenile players who play juvenile in some sort of area/amalgam setup, and these players may have a personal choice on which adult club they join, within the given area.

scfc, what you are describing may be another example of a laois solution for a laois problem......the laois county board may grant permission, but you will find said player may run into trouble should one of his teams end up playing in a club competition outside of laois, ie leinster club championship, and the presence of this player may akin to area teams winning a senior championship deem them ineligible to compete on a provincial stage.....as whilst laois may grant grace and permission to the player, he will still be breaching national rules.

This has turned into a very interesting thread! I know of instances in the past where it was just presumed that players could play with a club of the opposite code within their parish with no formal approval from the CB.

I always suspected there should have been some annual seeking of permission.

Also interesting that most (or at least some?) of these rules seems to have a proviso "subject to CB approval"!

I remember in 2009 my club didn't enter any football team (as I am from a predominantly hurling club) I wanted to play with a football team outside my parish but I would not of been granted a transfer from the county board, as I had to play the other club that was in my parish (there's 3 separate clubs in my parish). It didn't overly bother me at the time but I would of thought that if your club hasn't a football team I would have been a free agent and could play football with whatever club I wanted to??

I'm hearing that St Josephs members have rejected a proposal to play Senior football with Barrowhouse. They've had a fruitful relationship at underage and Barrowhouse could certainly make a decent contribution in my opinion. An opportunity lost if it's true. Josephs have a nice crop of talent coming through, but they haven't got enough of it. I think that decision will come back to haunt them.

Quote from: High Fielder on January 10, 2016, 09:59:38 AM
I'm hearing that St Josephs members have rejected a proposal to play Senior football with Barrowhouse. They've had a fruitful relationship at underage and Barrowhouse could certainly make a decent contribution in my opinion. An opportunity lost if it's true. Josephs have a nice crop of talent coming through, but they haven't got enough of it. I think that decision will come back to haunt them.

To add an extra twist to this i now hear (rumour mill) Kileen have approached Barrowhouse to play with them....the irony of that...

Quote from: The Monument Road on January 10, 2016, 04:31:46 PM

Quote from: High Fielder on January 10, 2016, 09:59:38 AM
I'm hearing that St Josephs members have rejected a proposal to play Senior football with Barrowhouse. They've had a fruitful relationship at underage and Barrowhouse could certainly make a decent contribution in my opinion. An opportunity lost if it's true. Josephs have a nice crop of talent coming through, but they haven't got enough of it. I think that decision will come back to haunt them.

To add an extra twist to this i now hear (rumour mill) Kileen have approached Barrowhouse to play with them....the irony of that...

I'd be amazed if Barrowhouse agreed to that after how they got screwed over by Killeen and the county board over the Kingstons.

Apart from the identity thing, the main reason why a club would not want to go by group status  route is that a winning group team cannot take  part in provincial club championship. St Josephs/Barrowhouse are very competitive underage outfit having won a couple of under 21 championships in past number of years. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think St Josephs are credible contenders on their own as  they are no better or worse than a dozen other senior teams. Nevertheless, they are a proud club with a great tradition who are entitled to stay on their own if they so wish.

I have heard nothing about any clubs looking into the option. I imagine they won't be any this year as  clubs will stick to the status quo. I hope I'm wrong as we definitely need some sort of a shake up to the current championship. 

Quote from: The Monument Road on January 10, 2016, 04:31:46 PM

Quote from: High Fielder on January 10, 2016, 09:59:38 AM
I'm hearing that St Josephs members have rejected a proposal to play Senior football with Barrowhouse. They've had a fruitful relationship at underage and Barrowhouse could certainly make a decent contribution in my opinion. An opportunity lost if it's true. Josephs have a nice crop of talent coming through, but they haven't got enough of it. I think that decision will come back to haunt them.

To add an extra twist to this i now hear (rumour mill) Kileen have approached Barrowhouse to play with them....the irony of that...

In relation to both of the above- I don't see how Barrowhouse could join up and play Senior with either club. AFAIK under rule junior or intermediate clubs can combine to play as a Divisional Senior team, but Senior teams cannot?
Unless of course the proposal was to actually amalgamate the clubs in some way?
There is a big difference between a club amalgamation and a divisional/group team.

Quote from: Keyser Söze on January 10, 2016, 08:13:06 PM

Quote from: The Monument Road on January 10, 2016, 04:31:46 PM

Quote from: High Fielder on January 10, 2016, 09:59:38 AM
I'm hearing that St Josephs members have rejected a proposal to play Senior football with Barrowhouse. They've had a fruitful relationship at underage and Barrowhouse could certainly make a decent contribution in my opinion. An opportunity lost if it's true. Josephs have a nice crop of talent coming through, but they haven't got enough of it. I think that decision will come back to haunt them.

To add an extra twist to this i now hear (rumour mill) Kileen have approached Barrowhouse to play with them....the irony of that...

In relation to both of the above- I don't see how Barrowhouse could join up and play Senior with either club. AFAIK under rule junior or intermediate clubs can combine to play as a Divisional Senior team, but Senior teams cannot?
Unless of course the proposal was to actually amalgamate the clubs in some way?
There is a big difference between a club amalgamation and a divisional/group team.

Yes they could, See Rule 3.19 (m) (i) and (ii) of the Official Guide Part 1, 2015

From what I've heard there was strong support for this Group Team within St Josephs but the fact that a decision had to be made in a hurry members voted for the status quo rather than the unknown.

Regarding Barrowhouse I think the question is can they afford not to get into bed with Killeen (And we all know Killeen will bed anybody to try win a championship) if the offer is there despite the past. They have some very good footballers that may leave for good if the door is closed on them to play Senior football.

On the face of it it looks like the Senior Club makes all the sacrifices as they change their name and forgo the chance to play in Leinster but will a Junior club survive when maybe having small numbers training will be compounded by not having your better players most of the time because of the demands a senior club will put on those better players. 

I may be alone in my opinion, but is it not a  complete joke that the reason many senior clubs refuse to take on a few players from a junior/intermediate club and become a senior amalgam IS BECAUSE if they win the senior championship they cannot then compete at provincial level.

one club in laois has monopolised the senior for 9 years, and it would be a very big job of work for an amalgam to dethrone them.

surely if an amalgam did win the senior championship, that in itself would be a huge achievement, they could alter their arrangement the following year if they want to meet the provincial qualification criteria.

the "not eligible for leinster" is the biggest red herring of all.

Quote from: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on January 10, 2016, 11:03:52 PM
I may be alone in my opinion, but is it not a  complete joke that the reason many senior clubs refuse to take on a few players from a junior/intermediate club and become a senior amalgam IS BECAUSE if they win the senior championship they cannot then compete at provincial level.

one club in laois has monopolised the senior for 9 years, and it would be a very big job of work for an amalgam to dethrone them.

surely if an amalgam did win the senior championship, that in itself would be a huge achievement, they could alter their arrangement the following year if they want to meet the provincial qualification criteria.

the "not eligible for leinster" is the biggest red herring of all.

agree 100%

Quote from: Pat Spillall on January 10, 2016, 10:45:16 PM

Quote from: Keyser Söze on January 10, 2016, 08:13:06 PM

Quote from: The Monument Road on January 10, 2016, 04:31:46 PM

Quote from: High Fielder on January 10, 2016, 09:59:38 AM
I'm hearing that St Josephs members have rejected a proposal to play Senior football with Barrowhouse. They've had a fruitful relationship at underage and Barrowhouse could certainly make a decent contribution in my opinion. An opportunity lost if it's true. Josephs have a nice crop of talent coming through, but they haven't got enough of it. I think that decision will come back to haunt them.

To add an extra twist to this i now hear (rumour mill) Kileen have approached Barrowhouse to play with them....the irony of that...

In relation to both of the above- I don't see how Barrowhouse could join up and play Senior with either club. AFAIK under rule junior or intermediate clubs can combine to play as a Divisional Senior team, but Senior teams cannot?
Unless of course the proposal was to actually amalgamate the clubs in some way?
There is a big difference between a club amalgamation and a divisional/group team.

Yes they could, See Rule 3.19 (m) (i) and (ii) of the Official Guide Part 1, 2015

Interesting, did a rule change or is it just a "new" official interpretation of the rule?

Ye it's a funny one Keyser. I thought both teams had to be below senior level to come together to form a "Gaels" team . I hear the change of the name and Kit change scuppered the the Josephs/Barrowhouse deal.

Could kileen not just sign another few players and stay senior by themselves  , but if they did join with barrow house does that mean the St joes/barrowhouse underage team is finished.I will prob be shot down for saying this but I think there is way too many amalgamations underage instead of clubs making more of an effort to properly coach their young players and bring in proper underage structures .

Quote from: Pablo Escobar on January 11, 2016, 07:25:57 PM
Ye it's a funny one Keyser. I thought both teams had to be below senior level to come together to form a "Gaels" team . I hear the change of the name and Kit change scuppered the the Josephs/Barrowhouse deal.

Any idea what the proposed name/kit change was?

No idea Keyser. Maybe one of our Josephs or Barrowhouse colleagues might fill us in?

Quote from: Laois fan on January 11, 2016, 10:49:08 PM
Could kileen not just sign another few players and stay senior by themselves  , but if they did join with barrow house does that mean the St joes/barrowhouse underage team is finished.I will prob be shot down for saying this but I think there is way too many amalgamations underage instead of clubs making more of an effort to properly coach their young players and bring in proper underage structures .

That's nonsense talk. Numbers are way too low for that to be a runner. Competition from other sports these days is huge as well. Young lads don't want to tog out for teams taking regular beatings, so they go elsewhere. In an ideal world, we would all like to see strong clubs with a good supply of players coming through, but we have to prepare for the reality; not a dream.

Quote from: High Fielder on January 12, 2016, 02:10:11 PM

Quote from: Laois fan on January 11, 2016, 10:49:08 PM
Could kileen not just sign another few players and stay senior by themselves  , but if they did join with barrow house does that mean the St joes/barrowhouse underage team is finished.I will prob be shot down for saying this but I think there is way too many amalgamations underage instead of clubs making more of an effort to properly coach their young players and bring in proper underage structures .

That's nonsense talk. Numbers are way too low for that to be a runner. Competition from other sports these days is huge as well. Young lads don't want to tog out for teams taking regular beatings, so they go elsewhere. In an ideal world, we would all like to see strong clubs with a good supply of players coming through, but we have to prepare for the reality; not a dream.

Agree fully. The big challenge facing the average GAA Club is holding on to the better players who are talented at nearly all sports. These players are not going to play for a poor set up with no expectation of achieving anything. It's not all about winning but been able to play at the highest possible level. Even strong clubs like Portlaoise are faced with the challenge of holding to players.

Quote from: Downtheroad on December 29, 2015, 06:21:18 PM
Slieve Bloom  linking up with Emo is doing the rounds. It won't be a runner for football if Castletown put in a football team as if there is a football team in a parish Slieve Bloom will have to stay put. Mind you the group status team could allow for junior and intermediate players to play outside the parish.

Good call. Castletown have entered a football team and Emo's Slieve Bloom plan has been refused by County Board.

Quote from: SCFC on January 20, 2016, 08:38:23 PM

Quote from: Downtheroad on December 29, 2015, 06:21:18 PM
Slieve Bloom  linking up with Emo is doing the rounds. It won't be a runner for football if Castletown put in a football team as if there is a football team in a parish Slieve Bloom will have to stay put. Mind you the group status team could allow for junior and intermediate players to play outside the parish.

Good call. Castletown have entered a football team and Emo's Slieve Bloom plan has been refused by County Board.

On what grounds?

Does this mean that Slieve Bloom football players will now have to try to seek permission to play with Castletown/Ballyfin/St. Fintans?

Quote from: Keyser Söze on January 21, 2016, 06:03:11 PM

Quote from: SCFC on January 20, 2016, 08:38:23 PM

Quote from: Downtheroad on December 29, 2015, 06:21:18 PM
Slieve Bloom  linking up with Emo is doing the rounds. It won't be a runner for football if Castletown put in a football team as if there is a football team in a parish Slieve Bloom will have to stay put. Mind you the group status team could allow for junior and intermediate players to play outside the parish.

Good call. Castletown have entered a football team and Emo's Slieve Bloom plan has been refused by County Board.

On what grounds?

Does this mean that Slieve Bloom football players will now have to try to seek permission to play with Castletown/Ballyfin/St. Fintans?

They have in the 1st instance to play within the parish so its Castletown.

Quote from: Downtheroad on January 22, 2016, 08:24:54 AM

Quote from: Keyser Söze on January 21, 2016, 06:03:11 PM

Quote from: SCFC on January 20, 2016, 08:38:23 PM

Quote from: Downtheroad on December 29, 2015, 06:21:18 PM
Slieve Bloom  linking up with Emo is doing the rounds. It won't be a runner for football if Castletown put in a football team as if there is a football team in a parish Slieve Bloom will have to stay put. Mind you the group status team could allow for junior and intermediate players to play outside the parish.

Good call. Castletown have entered a football team and Emo's Slieve Bloom plan has been refused by County Board.

On what grounds?

Does this mean that Slieve Bloom football players will now have to try to seek permission to play with Castletown/Ballyfin/St. Fintans?

They have in the 1st instance to play within the parish so its Castletown.

Do Castletown normally enter a football team ?

Got too the Junior A final in 2014 but withdrew before it started last year.

Have any of these progressed? Football or hurling?

AFAIK Ballyfin are going with Slieve Bloom for Football. That's the only one I heard.

Any idea when the cship draws are on?

Was wondering is one the reasons a lot of Kerry teams win junior and intermediate all Irelands have anything to do with the fact that a lot of these players are exposed to senior club football with amalgamations and divisional teams ? You don't see many senior Kerry clubs winning all irelands.

Quote from: Gmac on February 09, 2016, 10:17:40 PM
Was wondering is one the reasons a lot of Kerry teams win junior and intermediate all Irelands have anything to do with the fact that a lot of these players are exposed to senior club football with amalgamations and divisional teams ? You don't see many senior Kerry clubs winning all irelands.

Agreed but the main reason is the small number of senior clubs in Kerry which means that the intermediate and junior champions are very strong.
16 senior teams in Laous this year, 8 in Kerry. Go figure!

kyle and trumera are an item only one ive known to go through so far, i know that ballypickas were keen to join abbeyleix but it didnt get through abbeyleix agm. Its a wonder that nobody sought out slieve bloom especially mountrath considering that some of slieve blooms players would be in the town, the conroys would be a big boost to any team.

In football, Crettyard will have Spink players, Ballyfin will have Slieve Bloom and Mountmellick will have Castletown.

Quote from: Heshs Umpire on February 10, 2016, 07:58:14 AM
In football, Crettyard will have Spink players, Ballyfin will have Slieve Bloom and Mountmellick will have Castletown.

How will this work for league? Can spink players play with Crettyard for league in div 1 as well as div 3 on their own? Or do they just link up for cship? That would be fairly harsh on lads that played all the league games. Is this classed as an amalgamation or a group team or what?

Quote from: Ballyroan Abbey on February 09, 2016, 10:44:47 PM
kyle and trumera are an item only one ive known to go through so far, i know that ballypickas were keen to join abbeyleix but it didnt get through abbeyleix agm. Its a wonder that nobody sought out slieve bloom especially mountrath considering that some of slieve blooms players would be in the town, the conroys would be a big boost to any team.

Is that confirmed ? Some distance to be going for 2 joined teams if so!

Quote from: SpeculativeEffort on February 10, 2016, 09:17:45 AM

Quote from: Heshs Umpire on February 10, 2016, 07:58:14 AM
In football, Crettyard will have Spink players, Ballyfin will have Slieve Bloom and Mountmellick will have Castletown.

How will this work for league? Can spink players play with Crettyard for league in div 1 as well as div 3 on their own? Or do they just link up for cship? That would be fairly harsh on lads that played all the league games. Is this classed as an amalgamation or a group team or what?

Championship only afaik.
Group team I think is the official title. Think Mountmellick could do well with the Castletown lads.

Quote from: Helix on February 10, 2016, 10:39:45 AM

Quote from: Ballyroan Abbey on February 09, 2016, 10:44:47 PM
kyle and trumera are an item only one ive known to go through so far, i know that ballypickas were keen to join abbeyleix but it didnt get through abbeyleix agm. Its a wonder that nobody sought out slieve bloom especially mountrath considering that some of slieve blooms players would be in the town, the conroys would be a big boost to any team.

Is that confirmed ? Some distance to be going for 2 joined teams if so!

Its confirmed both struggling badly for numbers with trumera having the pick they have and kyles best players transferring out in the last few years, they have a team entered into the palmer cup

Yes I was aware of both circumstances. Kyle approached Clonad a couple of years back and was rejected. Best of luck to both anyways!