The ulster rugby trial

Started by caprea, February 01, 2018, 11:45:56 PM

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screenexile

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 08, 2018, 12:06:23 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 08, 2018, 12:04:01 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on February 08, 2018, 11:54:53 AM
I agree with that - they behaved atrociously, but that doesn't mean they raped her. There are an awful lot of holes and inconsistencies in her story.

Also, said in those texts she was raped by 3 men, didn't she?
Such as?

Said she only puts tan on if shes expecting sex? so she had no tan on but there was tan all over the clothes she was wearing.

those rugby lads must have been tanning themselves!! I think that was the jist of what was reported

That's not correct MR2 she said she had no tan on her legs and hadn't shaven. She was wearing a top that was showing her belly and so only tanned whatever was uncovered.

longballin

Fireside lawyers said the judge  :D

gallsman

Quote from: haranguerer on February 08, 2018, 12:06:33 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on February 08, 2018, 12:01:49 PM
In fairness she said "two and a third guy tried to get involved"

Her texts just seemed very calm, I'd like to see if thats normal. I'd presume rape victims follow relatively similar patterns and again I'd assume either you clam up and say nothing or you're hysterical.

No, she said 'just got raped by three f**king ulster rugby scum' in the ones i saw. Maybe elaborated in further messages, but that was one of them.

''In a text message to a friend the following day, the woman said she had been "raped by three Ulster f*****g rugby scum."''
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/there-spit-roasting-going-on-11941837

That was her text, the day after the event. Her story to the police, the basis of the charge, was that the third lad, McIlroy came into the room with his dick out.

Milltown Row2

I said that was the jist of what i got, I didnt say legs, upper body neck arms, probably a bit on her feet that was showing...
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

brokencrossbar1

Quote from: longballin on February 08, 2018, 12:13:17 PM
Fireside lawyers said the judge  :D

Exactly. While this is the most high profile and 'juicy' part of the case....woman giving evidence and being dissected by defence counsel...it's possibly not even the most crucial. I'm not saying it isn't but in a case of he said she said the circumstantial evidence is normally the key. Medical evidence, 3rd party statements, forensics etc. Both sides will play on the weaker sides of the others 'emotional' evidence and build up the strong parts of their own. If Jackson et al get into the box it could be very very telling. I would presume that in the police station they pushed the whole idea of consent in the interviews. We only know the potiential holes in the complainants case. There may be a raft of holes in their stories and even if they have been coached together as witnesses lies beget lies and ignorant they are not telling the truth they are not as smart as the man asking them the questions and they can be very easily caught out. This is far from clear cut and the whole question of when does the 'no consent' kick in will be the key. As soon as she says no anything thereafter is a crime

haranguerer

Quote from: sid waddell on February 08, 2018, 12:04:01 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on February 08, 2018, 11:54:53 AM
I agree with that - they behaved atrociously, but that doesn't mean they raped her. There are an awful lot of holes and inconsistencies in her story.

Also, said in those texts she was raped by 3 men, didn't she?
Such as?

The positions she talks about being in, face down, forced down on bed, but looked PJ in the eyes to say 'no, not him as well'. 'Froze' initially so didn't react, but then would appear to have been compliant in moving about going by how the story continues. Could obviously still be raped, compliance makes sense if under threat, but does there appear to have been the real threat or fear of violence there? If so, had it disappeared when she 'finally found her fight' and told the third she wasn't having sex with him? Which he accepted, but she did't feel that the others would have accepted that to that point? Girl enters room, she turns head away rather than plea for help or demonstrate it was unwilling. How she talks about the sex occurring now doesn't tally at all with her statement to the rowan crisis centre, and differs in quite major specific detail. Her statement in court to explain the various discrepancies was 'I think you are underestimating the state of shock you go into when you've been raped." If shock makes you not just forget details but actually invent contradictory details I'm not sure how anyone could ever be convicted of anything.

Also said that she hadn't liked the third (mcilroy) from the start of the night, seems to me that most likely story was consensual with paddy, and with Olding,but reservations as perhaps realised she was being used, then lost it when mcilroy tried to join in, regretted whole incident, which was exacerbated by McIlroy and perhaps the others giving her abuse, which put her into hysterics, and in retrospect believed a crime had been committed.

So there you go, guess I'm a rape apologist  ::)




haranguerer

Quote from: gallsman on February 08, 2018, 12:20:23 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on February 08, 2018, 12:06:33 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on February 08, 2018, 12:01:49 PM
In fairness she said "two and a third guy tried to get involved"

Her texts just seemed very calm, I'd like to see if thats normal. I'd presume rape victims follow relatively similar patterns and again I'd assume either you clam up and say nothing or you're hysterical.

No, she said 'just got raped by three f**king ulster rugby scum' in the ones i saw. Maybe elaborated in further messages, but that was one of them.

''In a text message to a friend the following day, the woman said she had been "raped by three Ulster f*****g rugby scum."''
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/there-spit-roasting-going-on-11941837

That was her text, the day after the event. Her story to the police, the basis of the charge, was that the third lad, McIlroy came into the room with his dick out.

Yes - this was about the texts, not her statements. It was the text I referred to initially which I thought M4S was correcting

Milltown Row2

#427
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 08, 2018, 12:21:41 PM
Quote from: longballin on February 08, 2018, 12:13:17 PM
Fireside lawyers said the judge  :D

Exactly. While this is the most high profile and 'juicy' part of the case....woman giving evidence and being dissected by defence counsel...it's possibly not even the most crucial. I'm not saying it isn't but in a case of he said she said the circumstantial evidence is normally the key. Medical evidence, 3rd party statements, forensics etc. Both sides will play on the weaker sides of the others 'emotional' evidence and build up the strong parts of their own. If Jackson et al get into the box it could be very very telling. I would presume that in the police station they pushed the whole idea of consent in the interviews. We only know the potiential holes in the complainants case. There may be a raft of holes in their stories and even if they have been coached together as witnesses lies beget lies and ignorant they are not telling the truth they are not as smart as the man asking them the questions and they can be very easily caught out. This is far from clear cut and the whole question of when does the 'no consent' kick in will be the key. As soon as she says no anything thereafter is a crime

It dosent look good for them, and I asked the question to my brother in law, who is a lawyer, from what he has seen so far and in his experience, he thinks the lads will get off!

I'm not conviced, but hey what would i know, being a fireside lawyer
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

longballin

What is obvious is rape victims (not saying her or not as I dont know) are put through hell in court.

haranguerer

As are all victims, and indeed innocent defendants.

They should really look at keeping these cases behind closed doors. Whatever the outcome, the likelihood is all their lives have been ruined

Milltown Row2

Quote from: longballin on February 08, 2018, 12:31:23 PM
What is obvious is rape victims (not saying her or not as I dont know) are put through hell in court.

Horrific by the sounds of it, takes a lot of support from family and the help centre's and of course the police
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

Esmarelda

Did the lawyer for Olding tell the court yesterday that his client's version of events is that he entered the room and the alleged victime was straddling Jackon and beckoning him (Olding) to join them?


AQMP

I've spoken to several fireside lawyers and a couple of actual lawyers.  The consensus is that it's 50:50 at the moment and the evidence of the other girl (who is slated to appear for the defence) will be crucial and how this evidence comes over will determine whether the defendants go in the witness box.

Orior

Quote from: haranguerer on February 08, 2018, 12:35:17 PM
As are all victims, and indeed innocent defendants.

They should really look at keeping these cases behind closed doors. Whatever the outcome, the likelihood is all their lives have been ruined

But then, some people of both gender, need a reminder of the possible consequences of their actions during a night out.
Cover me in chocolate and feed me to the lesbians

Itchy

Quote from: haranguerer on February 08, 2018, 12:35:17 PM
As are all victims, and indeed innocent defendants.

They should really look at keeping these cases behind closed doors. Whatever the outcome, the likelihood is all their lives have been ruined

Not true. Not all victims are cross examined. If someone walked up behind you on the street and kicked the crap out of you its unlikely you would get interrogated to try and imply you were getting a consensual kicking. Rape Victims almost always are interrogated and it puts quite a lot of them off going to court in the first place.