Ulster IFC and JFC Club Championships 2015

[Wildweasel74]

well there are 70 teams in Kerry give or take, where would you rate this team in the county, what number? In Dublin they have or had Division 1, Division 2 and B then divisions 1-9 (or the case been about 15yrs back) The Division 4 level (out of the 1-9) would been the same level as the Derry Junior back then . Cork have over 200 teams

if they operated the same way Kerry do with Division 1 teams playing junior, would Cork and Dublin teams not be on contention at Junior and intermediate every year, this is not the case.

[Ciarrai_thuaidh]

In fairness the Kerry Clubs won their titles within the rules. Now the rules suit their grading system and make it more likely for the winning of Provincial and All Ireland titles. But them are the rules. From a Mayo perspective, it can be embarrassing for clubs who got to a final and get well beaten by teams of a superior standard. This is not Kerrys fault. They do what they do for their Championship system.

Today I heard talk of how superior the Kerry footballers were to the Mayo footballers. And I doubt that anyone that was saying this was telling a lie. Just in reality we were not looking at like for like. And you'd expect this from a club graded 17 playing a team graded 9. God only knows that the Junior comparison is. I understand the adversity of these Kerry clubs, But hey Mayo Clubs don't have a bed of Roses when it comes to numbers/survival.  This is not a gripe. These grades are impossible to grade properly. And there are always an exceptionally very good group of players that turn up in a club to bring it from being a average club to a top club.

Firstly, Mary's were "ranked" 12th, not 9th in club teams if you want to call the Intermediate champions that. There were 11 Senior club teams in the Kerry Senior championship last year. If you want to do it by League ranking which some people seem to think is the be all and end all, Mary's were in Division 3 a couple of years ago. In other words, somewhere between 24-36 in ranking.

You are correct in saying that the cut-off point from Senior to Intermediate etc is totally arbitrary from county to county. However, on today's game, there was no massive imbalance in the Intermediate game. Mary's are a team that has come up from Junior as I said above.
If you are a team going up Senior in a serious Club Football county like Mayo you can't be making any excuses given the above..and in fairness the 1st goal was probably the key score in the game. H/C were actually the better team in the first half I thought and just lost the head a bit when chasing the game. (Taking a minute to kick a free wide near the end for example.) The game was a decent spectacle though.

[Ciarrai_thuaidh]

well there are 70 teams in Kerry give or take, where would you rate this team in the county, what number? In Dublin they have or had Division 1, Division 2 and B then divisions 1-9 (or the case been about 15yrs back) The Division 4 level (out of the 1-9) would been the same level as the Derry Junior back then . Cork have over 200 teams

if they operated the same way Kerry do with Division 1 teams playing junior, would Cork and Dublin teams not be on contention at Junior and intermediate every year, this is not the case.

There are 60 teams in the Kerry structure. 5 Divisions of 12 in the County League.

What people don't seem to get, or some people anyway, is that while the County League is taken fairly seriously, it has NO BEARING whatsoever on championship. There are teams who have played Division 1 football while still being Junior because they can't win the Junior championship. Some people seem to think this shouldn't be allowed. I have no idea why. Some of the stuff mentioned in this thread about teams getting automatically promoted in a championship level because of league status et..is just madness to me.
I couldn't give a fiddlers what Dublin or any other county do though. As FTB mentioned above, there is all sorts of systems out there. The Tipp Hurling championship has 32 clubs in it for example. What we do, works for us and has worked for years.

I actually disagree massively with the Kerry board regarding the changes being made this year as they have cut the number of clubs down to 8 in the Senior championship which is slightly too few. I do agree with keeping the standard of the championship high though and there have been a number of clubs that have played Senior that weren't up to it. The divisional teams have been a huge source of strength in the competition, which is something that not many outsiders even understand frankly.
The Kerry board have actually messed this around a bit aswell but no point going into it here.

Overall, I can see why people look at the Intermediate/Junior success Kerry teams have had and point fingers  but the whole thing leads back to protection of the standard of the Senior championship, which to be quite honest had dipped badly in quality for a few years since the mid 2000's.

[AZOffaly]

That's it in a nutshell. The problem most people seem to have is that there are not enough senior club teams in Kerry. To be honest I think they have it spot on, although as I said this year I think the Marys should be Senior Club, even if they decide to go with South in the County Championship.

Kerry do everything they do in order to increase the quality of their championship, and to benefit their inter county teams, and Senior in particular. I think it behoves every other county to ask are they doing the same?

[tiempo]

Having seen Templenoe first hand I can tell you they are a significant cut above Junior standard, as has been mentioned they could beat plenty of senior teams in counties around the country and indeed finished above St Marys, the All-Ireland intermediate champions in Kerry D2 league.

What we're saying here is Kerry wins an All-Ireland, natural order, move along, nothing to see here.

I feel for the opposition who got a free lesson/hammering in Croke Park yesterday but like I said, move along,  nothing to see here.

[general_lee]

It's really quite simple.

If all counties used their club leagues to gauge their championship standing then it wouldn't be difficult and no one could have any gripes. 

If Kerry has 60 clubs let the top 15 in the county leagues play senior, the next 15 play inter, 15 after play Junior and the last 15 play novice. If Armagh has 48 clubs, top 16 play senior, middle 16 play inter and the bottom 16 play junior.

[Farrandeelin]

intermediate final is tight, 0-6 each at h/t.

these 2 teams would never be intermediate in Tyrone.

Junior C I suppose.

[Captain Obvious]

well there are 70 teams in Kerry give or take, where would you rate this team in the county, what number? In Dublin they have or had Division 1, Division 2 and B then divisions 1-9 (or the case been about 15yrs back) The Division 4 level (out of the 1-9) would been the same level as the Derry Junior back then . Cork have over 200 teams

if they operated the same way Kerry do with Division 1 teams playing junior, would Cork and Dublin teams not be on contention at Junior and intermediate every year, this is not the case.

There are 60 teams in the Kerry structure. 5 Divisions of 12 in the County League.

What people don't seem to get, or some people anyway, is that while the County League is taken fairly seriously, it has NO BEARING whatsoever on championship. There are teams who have played Division 1 football while still being Junior because they can't win the Junior championship. Some people seem to think this shouldn't be allowed. I have no idea why. Some of the stuff mentioned in this thread about teams getting automatically promoted in a championship level because of league status et..is just madness to me.
I couldn't give a fiddlers what Dublin or any other county do though. As FTB mentioned above, there is all sorts of systems out there. The Tipp Hurling championship has 32 clubs in it for example. What we do, works for us and has worked for years.

I actually disagree massively with the Kerry board regarding the changes being made this year as they have cut the number of clubs down to 8 in the Senior championship which is slightly too few. I do agree with keeping the standard of the championship high though and there have been a number of clubs that have played Senior that weren't up to it. The divisional teams have been a huge source of strength in the competition, which is something that not many outsiders even understand frankly.
The Kerry board have actually messed this around a bit aswell but no point going into it here.

Overall, I can see why people look at the Intermediate/Junior success Kerry teams have had and point fingers  but the whole thing leads back to protection of the standard of the Senior championship, which to be quite honest had dipped badly in quality for a few years since the mid 2000's.

Mid nineties since a Kerry senior club won the All Ireland it does seem while Kerry have strengthened their intermediate and junior grades they have also weakened their senior championship.

[From the Bunker]

Having seen Templenoe first hand I can tell you they are a significant cut above Junior standard, as has been mentioned they could beat plenty of senior teams in counties around the country and indeed finished above St Marys, the All-Ireland intermediate champions in Kerry D2 league.

What we're saying here is Kerry wins an All-Ireland, natural order, move along, nothing to see here.

I feel for the opposition who got a free lesson/hammering in Croke Park yesterday but like I said, move along,  nothing to see here.

Good post!

Look this not to begrudging St. Marys/Templenoe their day in the sun. Especially Templenoe, who are on a remarkable journey. Just that teams they beat along the way are judged wrongly as to their skill set and standard. Yesterday, A good Mayo Junior side - Ardnaree were made look like a Junior 'b' team in an All Ireland final. The uneducated public look at this and think. Ah, what do you expect? Sure it was a Kerry team v a Mayo team. Sure Kerry always have the better footballers!

This is not Kerrys fault their Championship structure makes sure they have above the standard Junior and Intermediate teams as Champions. The Acid test as to the strength of their Clubs is the success of their Senior Clubs on the national stage which has been weak the last decade or two.

[AZOffaly]

I think ye are asking the wrong question. Maybe the question is 'Why do we (insert county here) have so many senior clubs?'. I know there's a fixation among clubs to be seen as senior, but really, what is it about? If you have 16 senior clubs, you have too many in my opinion.

That's where Kerry are coming from. They want a strong competitive championship at each grade, and that's why they include Divisional Sides in the County Championship, and why they limit the number of Senior Clubs.

I would say, also, that it leads to a significant levelling of standards across club football at the lower levels, and that's why there's a spread of All Ireland winners from the likes of Beale (now Div 5)  up to Saint Mary's.

The league is irrelevant,and comments about linking the leagues to the championships are spurious, as I do not believe that to be the case in most counties.

The real question is have Kerry 'unfairly' limited their senior clubs. I believe they have not. I believe they have made a decision which benefits the overall standard and crucially (and most importantly in their eyes) has benefitted the County teams.

I think teams that have their 20th best team being a senior club are the ones who have it arse about face, not Kerry.

[AZOffaly]

Having seen Templenoe first hand I can tell you they are a significant cut above Junior standard, as has been mentioned they could beat plenty of senior teams in counties around the country and indeed finished above St Marys, the All-Ireland intermediate champions in Kerry D2 league.

What we're saying here is Kerry wins an All-Ireland, natural order, move along, nothing to see here.

I feel for the opposition who got a free lesson/hammering in Croke Park yesterday but like I said, move along,  nothing to see here.

Good post!

Look this not to begrudging St. Marys/Templenoe their day in the sun. Especially Templenoe, who are on a remarkable journey. Just that teams they beat along the way are judged wrongly as to their skill set and standard. Yesterday, A good Mayo Junior side - Ardnaree were made look like a Junior 'b' team in an All Ireland final. The uneducated public look at this and think. Ah, what do you expect? Sure it was a Kerry team v a Mayo team. Sure Kerry always have the better footballers!

This is not Kerrys fault their Championship structure makes sure they have above the standard Junior and Intermediate teams as Champions. The Acid test as to the strength of their Clubs is the success of their Senior Clubs on the national stage which has been weak the last decade or two.

Not sure I necessarily agree with this either. The Acid test really is how competitive are their clubs at a National level, and how widespread is success. I would also say the acid test for their structures are the flow of players to the County set up. In both scenarios I would say they are successful. They don't have a Nemo Rangers or a Crossmaglen, but they do have several clubs who have been competitive, and they have players from all these clubs, and divisions, playing for Kerry and winning All Irelands. That's the key.

[From the Bunker]

Having seen Templenoe first hand I can tell you they are a significant cut above Junior standard, as has been mentioned they could beat plenty of senior teams in counties around the country and indeed finished above St Marys, the All-Ireland intermediate champions in Kerry D2 league.

What we're saying here is Kerry wins an All-Ireland, natural order, move along, nothing to see here.

I feel for the opposition who got a free lesson/hammering in Croke Park yesterday but like I said, move along,  nothing to see here.

Good post!

Look this not to begrudging St. Marys/Templenoe their day in the sun. Especially Templenoe, who are on a remarkable journey. Just that teams they beat along the way are judged wrongly as to their skill set and standard. Yesterday, A good Mayo Junior side - Ardnaree were made look like a Junior 'b' team in an All Ireland final. The uneducated public look at this and think. Ah, what do you expect? Sure it was a Kerry team v a Mayo team. Sure Kerry always have the better footballers!

This is not Kerrys fault their Championship structure makes sure they have above the standard Junior and Intermediate teams as Champions. The Acid test as to the strength of their Clubs is the success of their Senior Clubs on the national stage which has been weak the last decade or two.

Not sure I necessarily agree with this either. The Acid test really is how competitive are their clubs at a National level, and how widespread is success. I would also say the acid test for their structures are the flow of players to the County set up. In both scenarios I would say they are successful. They don't have a Nemo Rangers or a Crossmaglen, but they do have several clubs who have been competitive, and they have players from all these clubs, and divisions, playing for Kerry and winning All Irelands. That's the key.

The point is Kerry are dominating Intermediate and Junior because on top of them having top players they are Graded differently.  Senior is what it is! You cannot grade them differently to other counties. A high tide should rise all boats. So if intermediate and Junior are winning titles easily and not taking advantage, why are the Seniors not? What is the problem? There should have been a couple of AI's, should they not?

[AZOffaly]

Not necessarily. I know what you are saying, but I think you're putting too much emphasis on it. Kerry has a large number of very good club teams. They do not have many 'great' club teams. They prefer a great County team.

[From the Bunker]

Not necessarily. I know what you are saying, but I think you're putting too much emphasis on it. Kerry has a large number of very good club teams. They do not have many 'great' club teams. They prefer a great County team.

Look, I'm not knocking the Kerry Clubs success on the weekend. Especially Templenoe, who are really a Junior side when it comes to the size of their catchment and the effort they have gone to to get where they are. It's just the impression it leaves to the uneducated GAA person of how far ahead they are of the clubs from other counties. St. Marys being available to win the Intermediate makes a mockery of things next year.

[AZOffaly]

Not necessarily. I know what you are saying, but I think you're putting too much emphasis on it. Kerry has a large number of very good club teams. They do not have many 'great' club teams. They prefer a great County team.

Look, I'm not knocking the Kerry Clubs success on the weekend. Especially Templenoe, who are really a Junior side when it comes to the size of their catchment and the effort they have gone to to get where they are. It's just the impression it leaves to the uneducated GAA person of how far ahead they are of the clubs from other counties. St. Marys being available to win the Intermediate makes a mockery of things next year.

I agree with that!