Quinn Insurance in Administration

[muppet]

No Sammy: thats like putting up a picture of the pope when asked what is the catholic church.

Hes the head of regulation, the financial regulator is a body, not, as I said, a person.

Every country has it's own autonomous financial regulator. You strongly suggested you'd prefer the British one over the Irish one. You don't get that choice with the Catholic Church.

If Patrick Neary is the personification of the poor regulation of the past, this guy personifies the new regulation. And he is British so you will like him.

Good man.

The incompetence of the southern regulator has been well documented in the past. The fact that there is someone different at the helm is unlikely to have sorted it out in its entirety. I said I knew which one I'd rather place faith in in a clear reference to their records rather than their nationality. But dont you waste a chance to bring the debate down to a level you feel comfortable on.

Good man yourself. You are the one who introduced the UK/'South' comparison and you are the one who nailed your colours to that particular mast. When I point that out you accuse me of bringing it down a level. Grow up ffs.

Quinn is in the shit because of his gambling not because of any institution in the 'South' that you obviously hate so much.

[seafoid]

It's very interesting that Quinn didn't tolerate unions and is now manipulating the staff to do his marching bidding.

[haranguerer]

That the UK regulator hasnt been called in is a relevant issue, introduced by Rois. Given that the regulator in the south hasn't a good record, commonsense would dictate that faith in it should be limited: I would have more faith in the UK one, or indeed the regulator just about anywhere else Quinn is in business.

How does that translate into a nationalistic issue? How is it 'nailing colours to the mast', or a demonstration of hating the south? Muppet indeed...

Anyway...

It does seem as though Quinn has changed his tune significantly: from 'one of the greatest errors in the history of the state', to 'technically correct'. It really does look as though the place is fucked. He has been committed to those areas,and that is why he commands such respect. Whoever takes over wont have the same loyalty, whatever about the clauses that are originally put in place.

Seafoid - how do you work that one out? Those protests are worker driven, that is indisputable. How would himself, or mgt even get away with organising them, and passing them off as worker driven, given the amount of media interest?! There never were big calls for unions in Quinns, because he treated his workers well, without having to be told to.

[orangeman]

That the UK regulator hasnt been called in is a relevant issue, introduced by Rois. Given that the regulator in the south hasn't a good record, commonsense would dictate that faith in it should be limited: I would have more faith in the UK one, or indeed the regulator just about anywhere else Quinn is in business.

How does that translate into a nationalistic issue? How is it 'nailing colours to the mast', or a demonstration of hating the south? Muppet indeed...

Anyway...

It does seem as though Quinn has changed his tune significantly: from 'one of the greatest errors in the history of the state', to 'technically correct'. It really does look as though the place is fucked. He has been committed to those areas,and that is why he commands such respect. Whoever takes over wont have the same loyalty, whatever about the clauses that are originally put in place.

Seafoid - how do you work that one out? Those protests are worker driven, that is indisputable. How would himself, or mgt even get away with organising them, and passing them off as worker driven, given the amount of media interest?! There never were big calls for unions in Quinns, because he treated his workers well, without having to be told to.

I'm not getting this.

Is it not a case of getting another 200/300 million to bring the ratio back up again to the recommended level ?

Going forward, new business will be curtailed.

[scud]

I see Sean Quinn was a bit more contrite in a radio interview last night admitting to failures etc. Hopefully the administrator can sort something out.
Yet again I'm fascinated at the people of Cavan,Fermanagh, Leitrim etc and their unflinchiing loyalty to him. Whilst I can understand that he has brought jobs, employment stability to the region the fact remains that he broke the rules and it is as a direct result of this that the business is in the position it's in.
Listening to the rally last night and the speeches made and on the radio I have not heard one person say anything about this.

I feel sorry for the workers who are being cynically manipulated in all of this. Quinn has always ensured there has never been a union presence in his workforce yet now, with his own ass in the fire, we have rallies and protests. Introducing emotional blackmail as a bargaining chip in what is a business decision making process is downright disgraceful.

Many of the workers do have a cringeworthy, blind faith in the 'Mighty Quinn' but many others realise that they should be protesting outside his mansion and not the regulators office....

I think you'll find the protests have nothing to do with SQ. The idea and organisation of the protests was all taken on board solely by employees. Hardly surprising consideing what they face.

C'mon, are you serious? Its fairly obvious that that is simply not the case.

As I see it, even if Quinn remains in control most of them will have their pay frozen for another year and many will see further cuts on bonuses that make up a significant portion of their salary. We'll see if any protests are allowed then.

Serious? Yeah cause I know for a fact.

Most bonuses had been stopped already, and most employees understand why considering the economy. The loyalty might be something to do with the fact that despite the massive drop in business and profits QG has had they haven't laid any of.

If that is the case why has SQ been trumpeting about how the company has been making €3-400m despite the recession, down from €500m pre-recession? I read somewhere that the Quinn children received €200m from the Group last year, a year where ordinary workers' pay was frozen and bonuses slashed.

Workers are told pay must be cut because of 'hard times'. The regulator and banks are told despite the 'hard times' the group remains highly profitable. Which is right?

I don't want this to be a witch hunt, because the man has done a lot of good for the area but he cannot be portrayed as some sort of angel, or a messiah laying himself at the altar of the regulator to protect his workers. Bull. The man is a cut throat businessman and in this instance he seems more than willing to manipulate workers to protect his interests.

[muppet]

That the UK regulator hasnt been called in is a relevant issue, introduced by Rois. Given that the regulator in the south hasn't a good record, commonsense would dictate that faith in it should be limited: I would have more faith in the UK one, or indeed the regulator just about anywhere else Quinn is in business.

How does that translate into a nationalistic issue? How is it 'nailing colours to the mast', or a demonstration of hating the south? Muppet indeed...

Anyway...

It does seem as though Quinn has changed his tune significantly: from 'one of the greatest errors in the history of the state', to 'technically correct'. It really does look as though the place is fucked. He has been committed to those areas,and that is why he commands such respect. Whoever takes over wont have the same loyalty, whatever about the clauses that are originally put in place.

Seafoid - how do you work that one out? Those protests are worker driven, that is indisputable. How would himself, or mgt even get away with organising them, and passing them off as worker driven, given the amount of media interest?! There never were big calls for unions in Quinns, because he treated his workers well, without having to be told to.

So the 'Southern' regulator is 'technically correct' then?

I never used the word 'nationalist either'. Again you clearly indicated that you would prefer the British regulator to the 'southern' one. You took offense when I pointed out that the 'southern' regulator is in fact British. I should have said he was the Head of Financial Regulation which of course is the same thing.

Either way, handing Irish sovereign jurisdiction over to the British is not going to happen no matter how important the gambler is.

[Declan]

Article from Ivan Yates who is hardly a radical:

It's time we pleaded inability to pay for dead banks and risky businesses
By Ivan Yates
Thursday, April 08, 2010

THE implosion of our financial services sector just keeps giving more trauma and we have been constantly misled with only partial, minimalist, optimistic instalments of information. This has led the state to take ownership of virtually the entire indigenous banking sector and its liabilities.

The next generation of taxpayers have already had their future mortgaged by these commitments. The elastic is set to snap. The state's comfort blanket cannot underwrite this meltdown.


The Government then sent in PriceWaterhouseCoopers to assess future Anglo losses, estimated to be €2.75bn over three years. The bank was nationalised in January without the full horror being revealed. Last summer we were assured the €3.8bn state recapitalisation would go a long way towards fixing the bank.

Last week we invented a new term, "promissory notes". This facilitates €8.3bn of our money being paid by 10 postdated annual cheques of €830m over the next decade. We are still not being told the whole truth. Brian Lenihan says a further €10bn may be needed to cover the losses on the loans that do not qualify for NAMA. We have no visibility on these portfolios. It could be a further €20bn is required. Total losses of €30bn may emerge from Anglo's loan book of €72bn.

The past modus operandi of Anglo is now emerging. It was loan growth at all costs. The pedal was jammed on another billion of loan approvals. They were the bank that said "yes". Their banking model, risk analysis and legal securities on collateral were unsustainable. The debris of bad debt collection is falling apart and we're left to pick up the pieces.

This bank must be wound down in an orderly fashion. The new board and management of Alan Dukes and Mike Aynsley have a narrow fiduciary responsibility just to Anglo. The Government has to have a wider perspective. In politics and business there comes a point of "force majeure". We didn't know what we were getting into when we nationalised Anglo. The ethics of management were non-existent. The board failed to exercise any standard of corporate governance. Anglo directors were granted loans of €155m, of which €109m is now assessed to be non-collectable. The regulator was hopelessly inadequate. Auditors and other external experts didn't grasp the enormity of the losses. The sum total of this disaster is being underwritten with Irish sovereign debt, on which we definitely can't default. It's time to start disengaging by negotiating with both subordinate and senior bondholders. Let's hope for a miracle – EU Commissioner Joaquín Almunia prohibits this level of state aid – giving us a get-out-of-jail card.

The Anglo cancer spread into the wider economy. The Dublin Docklands Development Authority (DDDA) came under their spell. This body is now insolvent, with losses of up to €500m. The usual symptoms: greed, conflicts of interest and a flagrant disregard for corporate governance. The casino approach to commerce was endemic. The latest instalment is the placement of Quinn Insurance Ltd (QIL) into court-appointed provisional administration. The links between Anglo and Quinn represent two sides of the one coin. We have now reached the most dangerous point of discovery and resolution.

Seán Quinn and the Quinn Group have operated with the utmost secrecy. This was represented as personal modesty on behalf of Ireland's richest man – a shy, retiring, self-effacing entrepreneur with the most humble of origins.

It's time for us to get a grip on reality. This secrecy was a blatant tactic of concealment. The building up of Quinn's stake in Anglo was done in the most furtive manner of "contracts for difference". Even Anglo management didn't know their largest single borrower, at €2.8bn, controlled up to a 28% stake in the bank. This had to be unwound, with devastating consequences. Apparently Sean Fitzpatrick blames Quinn for the demise of Anglo.

Weekend speculation suggests Anglo has weaker security on its outstanding loans to the Quinn Group than other lenders and bondholders, out of total debts of €4bn. The prospect emerges that Anglo may now acquire the Quinn Group in a debt for equity swap.

Have we completely lost our marbles? Not satisfied with nationalising the banks and the property market through NAMA, some are seriously considering nationalising our second largest insurer. This is insanity. Matthew Elderfields' intervention in QIL is in essence a battle between QIL and the Quinn Group. We should not be a party to ensuring Quinn can dilute insurance solvency principles in order to retain his empire.

QIL is the cash cow of the Quinn Group. It accounts for €1bn or 50% of their annual revenue. Insurance is a cash flow-rich business. You receive the premium income up front, pour the money into assets and await claims. Seán Quinn admits he lost €3bn in share investment speculation, including Anglo and McInerney. Other assets in the group in construction and hotels have been impaired. The financial regulator is seeking to protect Quinn Direct, Quinn Healthcare, its policyholders and claimants. The 40% solvency ratio is being compromised by demands for guarantees on assets by other parts of the Quinn Group.

AND this conflict of control of QIL, thereby preserving the Quinn Group as a whole, is at the heart of next Monday's High Court hearing. The bailout of US insurance giant AIG cost $182bn. Quinn is furiously lobbying ministers to lean on the regulator and broker a deal. This seems to imply the regulator's office was previously a political puppet. Corporate deceit was commonplace. We have no obligations to these chancers. The courts and administrators should be allowed to act independent of any political interference.

Last week's recapitalisation of AIB and Bank of Ireland (BoI) may transpire to be unduly optimistic. BoI is set to raise €2.7bn privately. The NAMA bad loan transfers were reduced from €16bn to €12bn. The bank will have to nurse these loans. It seems bad debt provision is being minimised to avert state majority share holding. They may be back in several months for more state cash and resultant nationalisation.

AIB may have overvalued its Polish and American bank assets resulting in a further state cash call. Non-NAMA losses in Nationwide and EBS still may be underestimated. Any spare state finance will need to be kept for genuinely systemic banks. We cannot preclude another round of recapitalisation. The woes of Anglo, DDDA, Quinn Group and Nationwide are primarily about facing up to insolvency. The Government has offered unlimited protection to underwrite these liabilities. This emperor has no clothes. It's now time to change course. We have reached the point where the solvency of the sovereign state is in jeopardy. We must plead inability to pay. The cure is worse than the disease. The "least worst" option is to allow market forces to prevail.


Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/opinion/columnists/ivan-yates/its-time-we-pleaded-inability-to-pay-for-dead-banks-and-risky-businesses-116660.html#ixzz0kVqhr7FS

[scud]

That the UK regulator hasnt been called in is a relevant issue, introduced by Rois. Given that the regulator in the south hasn't a good record, commonsense would dictate that faith in it should be limited: I would have more faith in the UK one, or indeed the regulator just about anywhere else Quinn is in business.

How does that translate into a nationalistic issue? How is it 'nailing colours to the mast', or a demonstration of hating the south? Muppet indeed...

Anyway...

It does seem as though Quinn has changed his tune significantly: from 'one of the greatest errors in the history of the state', to 'technically correct'. It really does look as though the place is fucked. He has been committed to those areas,and that is why he commands such respect. Whoever takes over wont have the same loyalty, whatever about the clauses that are originally put in place.

Seafoid - how do you work that one out? Those protests are worker driven, that is indisputable. How would himself, or mgt even get away with organising them, and passing them off as worker driven, given the amount of media interest?! There never were big calls for unions in Quinns, because he treated his workers well, without having to be told to.

What I can't believe is that the national media have given it such a light touch, pardon the pun. I suppose its a side issue.

This is an organisation with no history of collective worker action, ever, yet overnight they mobilize in their thousands to attend not one rally, but 3/4 and counting. Busses have been booked - who paid? Spokespeople appear to talk to cameras and suprise, suprise, they use they same arguments made by SQ himself in the hours after the announcement and refuse to answer any questions. And everyone is allowed time off from work, no questions asked.

I'm not buying it.

[muppet]

That the UK regulator hasnt been called in is a relevant issue, introduced by Rois. Given that the regulator in the south hasn't a good record, commonsense would dictate that faith in it should be limited: I would have more faith in the UK one, or indeed the regulator just about anywhere else Quinn is in business.

How does that translate into a nationalistic issue? How is it 'nailing colours to the mast', or a demonstration of hating the south? Muppet indeed...

Anyway...

It does seem as though Quinn has changed his tune significantly: from 'one of the greatest errors in the history of the state', to 'technically correct'. It really does look as though the place is fucked. He has been committed to those areas,and that is why he commands such respect. Whoever takes over wont have the same loyalty, whatever about the clauses that are originally put in place.

Seafoid - how do you work that one out? Those protests are worker driven, that is indisputable. How would himself, or mgt even get away with organising them, and passing them off as worker driven, given the amount of media interest?! There never were big calls for unions in Quinns, because he treated his workers well, without having to be told to.

What I can't believe is that the national media have given it such a light touch, pardon the pun. I suppose its a side issue.

This is an organisation with no history of collective worker action, ever, yet overnight they mobilize in their thousands to attend not one rally, but 3/4 and counting. Busses have been booked - who paid? Spokespeople appear to talk to cameras and suprise, suprise, they use they same arguments made by SQ himself in the hours after the announcement and refuse to answer any questions. And everyone is allowed time off from work, no questions asked.

I'm not buying it.

Not many are.

The Yates article above has some very interesting points not least Quinn's lobbying of the politicians to influence the regulator. It seems our political scumbags will probably be the root cause of everything which of course explains Lenny's reluctance to investigate what happened.

Now what colour shirts should we march in when we are on Kildare street?

[lynchbhoy]

dont know if it was mentioned on here already but did anyone hear vincent browne interviewed on radio tues/wed evening on the radio (newstalk I think).
he was going balistic over us paying to bail out the banks, yet the banks would shaft any lender who similarly defaulted on being able to pay out on their financial mistakes !
fantastic to listen to (if not somewhat maddening).
I usually think vincent is a daft oul trout, but he was spot on here.
We should not be taking this lying down as vincent said we are doing as a country.
maybe as a sop to the workers, in lieu of bailing the banks out, each person of working age should get €100,000 !! (my opinion not something vincent said)
anyhow
What colour shirts do we wear when marching on kildare st ?

[seafoid]

What I can't believe is that the national media have given it such a light touch, pardon the pun. I suppose its a side issue.

This is an organisation with no history of collective worker action, ever, yet overnight they mobilize in their thousands to attend not one rally, but 3/4 and counting. Busses have been booked - who paid? Spokespeople appear to talk to cameras and suprise, suprise, they use they same arguments made by SQ himself in the hours after the announcement and refuse to answer any questions. And everyone is allowed time off from work, no questions asked.

I'm not buying it.
[/quote]

That's neoliberal trade union management from Sean Quinn . There was no need for trade unions under Sean since he was like the good shepherd except that he subsequently gambled the flock on Anglo Irish. He reminds me of a tribal chieftain. Of course they love him in Fermanagh. He's the reincarnation of the the Maguire of Fermanagh.

[supersarsfields]

That the UK regulator hasnt been called in is a relevant issue, introduced by Rois. Given that the regulator in the south hasn't a good record, commonsense would dictate that faith in it should be limited: I would have more faith in the UK one, or indeed the regulator just about anywhere else Quinn is in business.

How does that translate into a nationalistic issue? How is it 'nailing colours to the mast', or a demonstration of hating the south? Muppet indeed...

Anyway...

It does seem as though Quinn has changed his tune significantly: from 'one of the greatest errors in the history of the state', to 'technically correct'. It really does look as though the place is fucked. He has been committed to those areas,and that is why he commands such respect. Whoever takes over wont have the same loyalty, whatever about the clauses that are originally put in place.

Seafoid - how do you work that one out? Those protests are worker driven, that is indisputable. How would himself, or mgt even get away with organising them, and passing them off as worker driven, given the amount of media interest?! There never were big calls for unions in Quinns, because he treated his workers well, without having to be told to.

What I can't believe is that the national media have given it such a light touch, pardon the pun. I suppose its a side issue.

This is an organisation with no history of collective worker action, ever, yet overnight they mobilize in their thousands to attend not one rally, but 3/4 and counting. Busses have been booked - who paid? Spokespeople appear to talk to cameras and suprise, suprise, they use they same arguments made by SQ himself in the hours after the announcement and refuse to answer any questions. And everyone is allowed time off from work, no questions asked.

I'm not buying it.

That's your choice. But I might know a wee bit more than others on here and I can garanttee you that this is the case. SQ nor any of the Quinns have been involved in any of the protests either organising or otherwise. Have you not noticed that most of the protests have been about saving the jobs rather than saving SQ.

Your right that there has been no history of unions within QG. That's hardly surprising considering he has been one of the best employers in the Ireland and that's including work practices. AFAI there has never been any issues between QG and the employees. Yet your trying to but a negative spin on that??

Buses were booked by the Social club which is run completely independent from QG and is run by the employees. Is it really that hard top believe people are protesting about losing their jobs?

Of course everyone is allow time of work. It was unpaid leave and considering 70% of QD are doing nothing it's hardly surprising.

<sup>Workers are told pay must be cut because of 'hard times'. The regulator and banks are told despite the 'hard times' the group remains highly profitable. Which is right?

I don't want this to be a witch hunt, because the man has done a lot of good for the area but he cannot be portrayed as some sort of angel, or a messiah laying himself at the altar of the regulator to protect his workers. Bull. The man is a cut throat businessman and in this instance he seems more than willing to manipulate workers to protect his interests.</sup>

Pay wasn't cut. Bonuses were and not throughout the group either. And the businesses are profitable just not as profitable as before the recession.
Would you have preferred job cuts to keep the bonuses?

[seafoid]

The argument about the business being profitable is a non sequitur. If the company is insolvent it's much easier to make money. There's no need to invest premiums in conservative  assets. QIL lost 44m in dear old Blighty last year. That's not profitable AFAIK.   

[supersarsfields]

Have to say I never heard that figure before. ( Not doubting it, just hard to keep track of all the figures) But the problem with international insurance companies is that they'll be affected by different solvency rates. I think IIRC that Ireland works of a 150% rate for insurance companies. But the UK and alot of europe work of a 100% rate. And while QI maintained a ratio of over 100% ( I think it was close to 120%) It fell below the Irish requirement of 150%. And I think this is were the "technically" term has come from. As the regulator was correct he had fallen below the 150 rate but not so much so that it would cause an effect on the company.

Again I'm not 100% on all the numbers as there's been that many thrown around in all the papers that it all gets a bit confusing.

[scud]

That's your choice. But I might know a wee bit more than others on here and I can garanttee you that this is the case. SQ nor any of the Quinns have been involved in any of the protests either organising or otherwise. Have you not noticed that most of the protests have been about saving the jobs rather than saving SQ.

Your right that there has been no history of unions within QG. That's hardly surprising considering he has been one of the best employers in the Ireland and that's including work practices. AFAI there has never been any issues between QG and the employees. Yet your trying to but a negative spin on that??

Buses were booked by the Social club which is run completely independent from QG and is run by the employees. Is it really that hard top believe people are protesting about losing their jobs?

Of course everyone is allow time of work. It was unpaid leave and considering 70% of QD are doing nothing it's hardly surprising.

<sup>Workers are told pay must be cut because of 'hard times'. The regulator and banks are told despite the 'hard times' the group remains highly profitable. Which is right?

I don't want this to be a witch hunt, because the man has done a lot of good for the area but he cannot be portrayed as some sort of angel, or a messiah laying himself at the altar of the regulator to protect his workers. Bull. The man is a cut throat businessman and in this instance he seems more than willing to manipulate workers to protect his interests.</sup>

Pay wasn't cut. Bonuses were and not throughout the group either. And the businesses are profitable just not as profitable as before the recession.
Would you have preferred job cuts to keep the bonuses?

A pay freeze is in effect a pay cut when you take inflation into account. And how much are bonuses costing QG? If we take the 5,500 employee figure at an average wage of say £20k and a bonus of 20%. £4k bonus per worker = £22mil, hardly big money to a group still making £300m and certainly not a figure which would costs jobs when the group was able to absorb an €800m loss in 2008.

Admittedly second hand, but I know of many workplace practices throughout the Group that would not be tolerated were it not for the fact that he's the only show in town in these parts. For many its a job with Quinn or move away, making them afraid to rock the boat.

That protests are against the regulator's decision, 'save our jobs' is the slogan.