Author Topic: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.  (Read 84325 times)

Il Bomber Destro

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1800 on: December 09, 2017, 08:37:10 PM »
Life experiences in N.Ireland across the Catholic community varied in the period up to 1967 just as you would find in most societies.  In terms of discrimination against the Catholic community it is important to realise that it was institutional, i.e. the democratic deficit in N.Ireland was produced by gerrymandering over a long period of time to ensure that the absolute minimum number of Catholic representatives could be returned to Stormont and the district councils.  Within government institutions those at the higher levels were from the Protestant community and ensured that new employees came from their own community, so most civil service and similar jobs were given to Protestants regardless of their merit compared to Catholic applicants.  In businesses, there was segregation of the communities, Protestant firms employed Protestants and Catholic firms employed Catholics.  There were some instances of crossover but Catholics could never attain jobs in Protestant firms at anything other than in menial jobs that Protestants wouldn't do, not dissimilar to today's situation where migrants take the jobs that the locals don't want to do.

The one good thing that came from the Unionist parliament was the 1947 Education Act which provided free and universal education for everyone at secondary level.  This meant that the Catholic population was able to access secondary level education and have the opportunity to reach university education (at that stage only 5% of the population attended third level education).  However, this provision did not mean that everyone could afford to have their children at secondary school.  If Catholic parents had low paid work which was the norm then they needed their children to become earners as soon as possible and to leave school and get a job.  Therefore, the Catholic population remained largely poorly education at secondary level for many years after 1947.  However, some families became determined to provide their children with an education and made major sacrifices to keep their children at school.  This provided an increasing educated Catholic cohort, some managing to get to university education.  Their education did not improve their opportunities of work in government institutions.

The democratic deficit at district council level applied to both Catholic and Protestants because as well as discriminating against catholics the unionist establishment wanted to keep their own people in subjection with governments which were conservative/right wing in political position.  Councils provided votes only to rates payers, so if you didn't own property you couldn't vote in council elections.  However, business owners got multiple votes because they paid high levels of rates.  This led to councils that were business owner supporters and ignoring working classes particularly the Catholics but councils ran public housing and education so Catholics and poor Protestants were discriminated against by councils in housing matters but with Catholics at the bottom of the pile.

Then from 1968 on the Catholic population mobilised in protest, working class Protestants were largely paid off by having access to jobs usually low paid and kept in fear by being told the Catholics were uprising for a united Ireland.  The state reacted badly to being confronted.

However, the McCrory Report in 1970 signalled the end of the institutionalised discrimination by providing all with votes in local government and dismantling the apparatus of the state away from discriminating unionist dominated councils. In 1971 the N.Ireland Housing Executive was formed, taking public housing away from discriminating councils. The Local Government (Boundaries) Act (Northern Ireland) 1971 and the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 replaced the previous system established by the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898. This replaced the 6 county councils and two borough councils with 26 local councils and ended much of the gerrymandering.

So, from 1972, all citizens of N.Ireland had equal rights in housing, education and local government. By 1976, the Fair Employment Act prohibited discrimination in the workplace on the grounds of religion and established a Fair Employment Agency.

So, from the early 70s discrimination had been removed from institutions and democratic bodies but the same people were still in most civil service and local government jobs and catholics had to resort to legal routes to work their way to top in these areas.

Therefore, all talk of discrimination by the state after the early 70s is largely inaccurate, it still existed with some individuals unless challenged using the agencies that had been created by the UK government.  The problem from early 70s lies with the greater segregation and polarisation of the population caused by the on-going violence of the IRA and UVF/UDA.  From early 70s anyone can get a job or a house or an education anywhere but they will not feel comfortable in the segregated society that has formed.  Polarisation of the communities has become much sharper over the last 40 years and whole populations have moved to make new small towns and some people have been moved in the ethnic cleansing (N.Ireland style) that occurred in the 30 year conflict.

Are you having a laugh??

If you read what I have written you will see that the institutions to remove discrimination as provided from the McCrory Report removed the main elements of state which were in place to allow discrimination.  As I have stated the issue of discrimination remaining was down to the people in state organisation and businesses who continued to discriminate and break the law in doing so. 

Up until the NIHE, ELBs, Fair Employment act and the local government act, all from earlier 70s, it was not illegal for state bodies and business to discriminate in the fields of housing, education and employment. 

The safeguards that ensure discrimination on a religious basis as had happened from the beginning of N.Ireland are no longer acceptable or legal in 2017 were in place from early 70s.  That is a fact.  Did discrimination still occur, yes, but it could be contested, beaten and compensated for thanks to the new institutions and parliamentary acts put in place from early 70s.

Does discrimination still occur in 2017, yes it does but by both sides of the community and those affected have the legal right of challenge and recompense thanks to the laws enacted in 1970's and amended on occasions since then to make them broader and more effective.

There is nothing introduced since the early 1970s that has suddenly made discrimination disappear apart from amendments and improvements to the existing legislation.

You sound like a chap who was in the UDR or had relatives in the UDR.

Il Bomber Destro

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1801 on: December 09, 2017, 08:40:05 PM »
Branching off a bit here, but with Fair Employment introduced which enabled more Catholics to get certain jobs. Now that's in place, has even those Catholics been forced down the list and LBGT's taken priority for jobs? Just a thought.

A terrible, regressive thought that ignores the very basic laws of recruitment. Do you think a gay person has their sexuality tattooed on their forehead or something?

If you're going to try to vaguely target a minority group at least spell it right.

It's an acronym. You cant "spell" an acronym.

Well, if a gay thought by declaring they were gay on a form (which I presume is an option these days), they might declare it if they thought it would increase their chances.
You are an offensive moron.

What's offensive about that?

He won't answer you. He taps out when there's a little bit of pressure applied to him.

He's a windy wee soul.

Owen Brannigan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1802 on: December 09, 2017, 09:12:38 PM »
Life experiences in N.Ireland across the Catholic community varied in the period up to 1967 just as you would find in most societies.  In terms of discrimination against the Catholic community it is important to realise that it was institutional, i.e. the democratic deficit in N.Ireland was produced by gerrymandering over a long period of time to ensure that the absolute minimum number of Catholic representatives could be returned to Stormont and the district councils.  Within government institutions those at the higher levels were from the Protestant community and ensured that new employees came from their own community, so most civil service and similar jobs were given to Protestants regardless of their merit compared to Catholic applicants.  In businesses, there was segregation of the communities, Protestant firms employed Protestants and Catholic firms employed Catholics.  There were some instances of crossover but Catholics could never attain jobs in Protestant firms at anything other than in menial jobs that Protestants wouldn't do, not dissimilar to today's situation where migrants take the jobs that the locals don't want to do.

The one good thing that came from the Unionist parliament was the 1947 Education Act which provided free and universal education for everyone at secondary level.  This meant that the Catholic population was able to access secondary level education and have the opportunity to reach university education (at that stage only 5% of the population attended third level education).  However, this provision did not mean that everyone could afford to have their children at secondary school.  If Catholic parents had low paid work which was the norm then they needed their children to become earners as soon as possible and to leave school and get a job.  Therefore, the Catholic population remained largely poorly education at secondary level for many years after 1947.  However, some families became determined to provide their children with an education and made major sacrifices to keep their children at school.  This provided an increasing educated Catholic cohort, some managing to get to university education.  Their education did not improve their opportunities of work in government institutions.

The democratic deficit at district council level applied to both Catholic and Protestants because as well as discriminating against catholics the unionist establishment wanted to keep their own people in subjection with governments which were conservative/right wing in political position.  Councils provided votes only to rates payers, so if you didn't own property you couldn't vote in council elections.  However, business owners got multiple votes because they paid high levels of rates.  This led to councils that were business owner supporters and ignoring working classes particularly the Catholics but councils ran public housing and education so Catholics and poor Protestants were discriminated against by councils in housing matters but with Catholics at the bottom of the pile.

Then from 1968 on the Catholic population mobilised in protest, working class Protestants were largely paid off by having access to jobs usually low paid and kept in fear by being told the Catholics were uprising for a united Ireland.  The state reacted badly to being confronted.

However, the McCrory Report in 1970 signalled the end of the institutionalised discrimination by providing all with votes in local government and dismantling the apparatus of the state away from discriminating unionist dominated councils. In 1971 the N.Ireland Housing Executive was formed, taking public housing away from discriminating councils. The Local Government (Boundaries) Act (Northern Ireland) 1971 and the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 replaced the previous system established by the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898. This replaced the 6 county councils and two borough councils with 26 local councils and ended much of the gerrymandering.

So, from 1972, all citizens of N.Ireland had equal rights in housing, education and local government. By 1976, the Fair Employment Act prohibited discrimination in the workplace on the grounds of religion and established a Fair Employment Agency.

So, from the early 70s discrimination had been removed from institutions and democratic bodies but the same people were still in most civil service and local government jobs and catholics had to resort to legal routes to work their way to top in these areas.

Therefore, all talk of discrimination by the state after the early 70s is largely inaccurate, it still existed with some individuals unless challenged using the agencies that had been created by the UK government.  The problem from early 70s lies with the greater segregation and polarisation of the population caused by the on-going violence of the IRA and UVF/UDA.  From early 70s anyone can get a job or a house or an education anywhere but they will not feel comfortable in the segregated society that has formed.  Polarisation of the communities has become much sharper over the last 40 years and whole populations have moved to make new small towns and some people have been moved in the ethnic cleansing (N.Ireland style) that occurred in the 30 year conflict.

Are you having a laugh??

If you read what I have written you will see that the institutions to remove discrimination as provided from the McCrory Report removed the main elements of state which were in place to allow discrimination.  As I have stated the issue of discrimination remaining was down to the people in state organisation and businesses who continued to discriminate and break the law in doing so. 

Up until the NIHE, ELBs, Fair Employment act and the local government act, all from earlier 70s, it was not illegal for state bodies and business to discriminate in the fields of housing, education and employment. 

The safeguards that ensure discrimination on a religious basis as had happened from the beginning of N.Ireland are no longer acceptable or legal in 2017 were in place from early 70s.  That is a fact.  Did discrimination still occur, yes, but it could be contested, beaten and compensated for thanks to the new institutions and parliamentary acts put in place from early 70s.

Does discrimination still occur in 2017, yes it does but by both sides of the community and those affected have the legal right of challenge and recompense thanks to the laws enacted in 1970's and amended on occasions since then to make them broader and more effective.

There is nothing introduced since the early 1970s that has suddenly made discrimination disappear apart from amendments and improvements to the existing legislation.

You sound like a chap who was in the UDR or had relatives in the UDR.

Neither.  Just someone who has lived through the worst of times in this country and someone able to take an objective view of the factual account of what happened during the last 50 years and not absorbing the alternative narratives now being peddled by both sides to justify their actions.

Il Bomber Destro

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1803 on: December 09, 2017, 09:20:05 PM »
Life experiences in N.Ireland across the Catholic community varied in the period up to 1967 just as you would find in most societies.  In terms of discrimination against the Catholic community it is important to realise that it was institutional, i.e. the democratic deficit in N.Ireland was produced by gerrymandering over a long period of time to ensure that the absolute minimum number of Catholic representatives could be returned to Stormont and the district councils.  Within government institutions those at the higher levels were from the Protestant community and ensured that new employees came from their own community, so most civil service and similar jobs were given to Protestants regardless of their merit compared to Catholic applicants.  In businesses, there was segregation of the communities, Protestant firms employed Protestants and Catholic firms employed Catholics.  There were some instances of crossover but Catholics could never attain jobs in Protestant firms at anything other than in menial jobs that Protestants wouldn't do, not dissimilar to today's situation where migrants take the jobs that the locals don't want to do.

The one good thing that came from the Unionist parliament was the 1947 Education Act which provided free and universal education for everyone at secondary level.  This meant that the Catholic population was able to access secondary level education and have the opportunity to reach university education (at that stage only 5% of the population attended third level education).  However, this provision did not mean that everyone could afford to have their children at secondary school.  If Catholic parents had low paid work which was the norm then they needed their children to become earners as soon as possible and to leave school and get a job.  Therefore, the Catholic population remained largely poorly education at secondary level for many years after 1947.  However, some families became determined to provide their children with an education and made major sacrifices to keep their children at school.  This provided an increasing educated Catholic cohort, some managing to get to university education.  Their education did not improve their opportunities of work in government institutions.

The democratic deficit at district council level applied to both Catholic and Protestants because as well as discriminating against catholics the unionist establishment wanted to keep their own people in subjection with governments which were conservative/right wing in political position.  Councils provided votes only to rates payers, so if you didn't own property you couldn't vote in council elections.  However, business owners got multiple votes because they paid high levels of rates.  This led to councils that were business owner supporters and ignoring working classes particularly the Catholics but councils ran public housing and education so Catholics and poor Protestants were discriminated against by councils in housing matters but with Catholics at the bottom of the pile.

Then from 1968 on the Catholic population mobilised in protest, working class Protestants were largely paid off by having access to jobs usually low paid and kept in fear by being told the Catholics were uprising for a united Ireland.  The state reacted badly to being confronted.

However, the McCrory Report in 1970 signalled the end of the institutionalised discrimination by providing all with votes in local government and dismantling the apparatus of the state away from discriminating unionist dominated councils. In 1971 the N.Ireland Housing Executive was formed, taking public housing away from discriminating councils. The Local Government (Boundaries) Act (Northern Ireland) 1971 and the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 replaced the previous system established by the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898. This replaced the 6 county councils and two borough councils with 26 local councils and ended much of the gerrymandering.

So, from 1972, all citizens of N.Ireland had equal rights in housing, education and local government. By 1976, the Fair Employment Act prohibited discrimination in the workplace on the grounds of religion and established a Fair Employment Agency.

So, from the early 70s discrimination had been removed from institutions and democratic bodies but the same people were still in most civil service and local government jobs and catholics had to resort to legal routes to work their way to top in these areas.

Therefore, all talk of discrimination by the state after the early 70s is largely inaccurate, it still existed with some individuals unless challenged using the agencies that had been created by the UK government.  The problem from early 70s lies with the greater segregation and polarisation of the population caused by the on-going violence of the IRA and UVF/UDA.  From early 70s anyone can get a job or a house or an education anywhere but they will not feel comfortable in the segregated society that has formed.  Polarisation of the communities has become much sharper over the last 40 years and whole populations have moved to make new small towns and some people have been moved in the ethnic cleansing (N.Ireland style) that occurred in the 30 year conflict.

Are you having a laugh??

If you read what I have written you will see that the institutions to remove discrimination as provided from the McCrory Report removed the main elements of state which were in place to allow discrimination.  As I have stated the issue of discrimination remaining was down to the people in state organisation and businesses who continued to discriminate and break the law in doing so. 

Up until the NIHE, ELBs, Fair Employment act and the local government act, all from earlier 70s, it was not illegal for state bodies and business to discriminate in the fields of housing, education and employment. 

The safeguards that ensure discrimination on a religious basis as had happened from the beginning of N.Ireland are no longer acceptable or legal in 2017 were in place from early 70s.  That is a fact.  Did discrimination still occur, yes, but it could be contested, beaten and compensated for thanks to the new institutions and parliamentary acts put in place from early 70s.

Does discrimination still occur in 2017, yes it does but by both sides of the community and those affected have the legal right of challenge and recompense thanks to the laws enacted in 1970's and amended on occasions since then to make them broader and more effective.

There is nothing introduced since the early 1970s that has suddenly made discrimination disappear apart from amendments and improvements to the existing legislation.

You sound like a chap who was in the UDR or had relatives in the UDR.

Neither.  Just someone who has lived through the worst of times in this country and someone able to take an objective view of the factual account of what happened during the last 50 years and not absorbing the alternative narratives now being peddled by both sides to justify their actions.

Your view doesn't seem objective at all. It seems very subjective and contrary to factual events and incidents. In short, you're talking bollocks.

Owen Brannigan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1804 on: December 09, 2017, 09:28:19 PM »
Life experiences in N.Ireland across the Catholic community varied in the period up to 1967 just as you would find in most societies.  In terms of discrimination against the Catholic community it is important to realise that it was institutional, i.e. the democratic deficit in N.Ireland was produced by gerrymandering over a long period of time to ensure that the absolute minimum number of Catholic representatives could be returned to Stormont and the district councils.  Within government institutions those at the higher levels were from the Protestant community and ensured that new employees came from their own community, so most civil service and similar jobs were given to Protestants regardless of their merit compared to Catholic applicants.  In businesses, there was segregation of the communities, Protestant firms employed Protestants and Catholic firms employed Catholics.  There were some instances of crossover but Catholics could never attain jobs in Protestant firms at anything other than in menial jobs that Protestants wouldn't do, not dissimilar to today's situation where migrants take the jobs that the locals don't want to do.

The one good thing that came from the Unionist parliament was the 1947 Education Act which provided free and universal education for everyone at secondary level.  This meant that the Catholic population was able to access secondary level education and have the opportunity to reach university education (at that stage only 5% of the population attended third level education).  However, this provision did not mean that everyone could afford to have their children at secondary school.  If Catholic parents had low paid work which was the norm then they needed their children to become earners as soon as possible and to leave school and get a job.  Therefore, the Catholic population remained largely poorly education at secondary level for many years after 1947.  However, some families became determined to provide their children with an education and made major sacrifices to keep their children at school.  This provided an increasing educated Catholic cohort, some managing to get to university education.  Their education did not improve their opportunities of work in government institutions.

The democratic deficit at district council level applied to both Catholic and Protestants because as well as discriminating against catholics the unionist establishment wanted to keep their own people in subjection with governments which were conservative/right wing in political position.  Councils provided votes only to rates payers, so if you didn't own property you couldn't vote in council elections.  However, business owners got multiple votes because they paid high levels of rates.  This led to councils that were business owner supporters and ignoring working classes particularly the Catholics but councils ran public housing and education so Catholics and poor Protestants were discriminated against by councils in housing matters but with Catholics at the bottom of the pile.

Then from 1968 on the Catholic population mobilised in protest, working class Protestants were largely paid off by having access to jobs usually low paid and kept in fear by being told the Catholics were uprising for a united Ireland.  The state reacted badly to being confronted.

However, the McCrory Report in 1970 signalled the end of the institutionalised discrimination by providing all with votes in local government and dismantling the apparatus of the state away from discriminating unionist dominated councils. In 1971 the N.Ireland Housing Executive was formed, taking public housing away from discriminating councils. The Local Government (Boundaries) Act (Northern Ireland) 1971 and the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 replaced the previous system established by the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898. This replaced the 6 county councils and two borough councils with 26 local councils and ended much of the gerrymandering.

So, from 1972, all citizens of N.Ireland had equal rights in housing, education and local government. By 1976, the Fair Employment Act prohibited discrimination in the workplace on the grounds of religion and established a Fair Employment Agency.

So, from the early 70s discrimination had been removed from institutions and democratic bodies but the same people were still in most civil service and local government jobs and catholics had to resort to legal routes to work their way to top in these areas.

Therefore, all talk of discrimination by the state after the early 70s is largely inaccurate, it still existed with some individuals unless challenged using the agencies that had been created by the UK government.  The problem from early 70s lies with the greater segregation and polarisation of the population caused by the on-going violence of the IRA and UVF/UDA.  From early 70s anyone can get a job or a house or an education anywhere but they will not feel comfortable in the segregated society that has formed.  Polarisation of the communities has become much sharper over the last 40 years and whole populations have moved to make new small towns and some people have been moved in the ethnic cleansing (N.Ireland style) that occurred in the 30 year conflict.

Are you having a laugh??

If you read what I have written you will see that the institutions to remove discrimination as provided from the McCrory Report removed the main elements of state which were in place to allow discrimination.  As I have stated the issue of discrimination remaining was down to the people in state organisation and businesses who continued to discriminate and break the law in doing so. 

Up until the NIHE, ELBs, Fair Employment act and the local government act, all from earlier 70s, it was not illegal for state bodies and business to discriminate in the fields of housing, education and employment. 

The safeguards that ensure discrimination on a religious basis as had happened from the beginning of N.Ireland are no longer acceptable or legal in 2017 were in place from early 70s.  That is a fact.  Did discrimination still occur, yes, but it could be contested, beaten and compensated for thanks to the new institutions and parliamentary acts put in place from early 70s.

Does discrimination still occur in 2017, yes it does but by both sides of the community and those affected have the legal right of challenge and recompense thanks to the laws enacted in 1970's and amended on occasions since then to make them broader and more effective.

There is nothing introduced since the early 1970s that has suddenly made discrimination disappear apart from amendments and improvements to the existing legislation.

You sound like a chap who was in the UDR or had relatives in the UDR.

Neither.  Just someone who has lived through the worst of times in this country and someone able to take an objective view of the factual account of what happened during the last 50 years and not absorbing the alternative narratives now being peddled by both sides to justify their actions.

Your view doesn't seem objective at all. It seems very subjective and contrary to factual events and incidents. In short, you're talking bollocks.

When I get that type of reply from you, I always know I am on the right lines. You are unable to provide any logical argument or repudiation of the facts I have presented instead preferring to slur my name and character as I have highlighted above and then to dismiss anything that argues against your viewpoint.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 09:46:36 PM by Owen Brannigan »

T Fearon

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1805 on: December 09, 2017, 09:47:23 PM »
I don't accept there was institutional discrimination.The likes of Maurice Hayes reached the highest echelons of the Civil Service.I think in the heavy industries in Belfast Catholics were intimidated by Protestant workers,and Management may have been negligent in not tackling this.

In any event you have to look at what motivated Protestant/unionists.Northern Catholics never at any stage showed allegiance to the Northern state,and this led to Protestant/Unionist mistrust which manifested itself in exclusion.I am not saying Catholics were right or wrong not to show allegiance to the Northern statelet,but undoubtedly this did contribute to Unionist mistrust,from which exclusion and some discrimination ensued. Paisley often referred to the lack of catholic support for and loyalty to the new Northern statelet and contrasted this with Protestant support for or at least willingness to co operate in the new independent state in the South from those Protestants who lived there.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 09:49:51 PM by T Fearon »

Il Bomber Destro

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1806 on: December 09, 2017, 10:00:20 PM »
Life experiences in N.Ireland across the Catholic community varied in the period up to 1967 just as you would find in most societies.  In terms of discrimination against the Catholic community it is important to realise that it was institutional, i.e. the democratic deficit in N.Ireland was produced by gerrymandering over a long period of time to ensure that the absolute minimum number of Catholic representatives could be returned to Stormont and the district councils.  Within government institutions those at the higher levels were from the Protestant community and ensured that new employees came from their own community, so most civil service and similar jobs were given to Protestants regardless of their merit compared to Catholic applicants.  In businesses, there was segregation of the communities, Protestant firms employed Protestants and Catholic firms employed Catholics.  There were some instances of crossover but Catholics could never attain jobs in Protestant firms at anything other than in menial jobs that Protestants wouldn't do, not dissimilar to today's situation where migrants take the jobs that the locals don't want to do.

The one good thing that came from the Unionist parliament was the 1947 Education Act which provided free and universal education for everyone at secondary level.  This meant that the Catholic population was able to access secondary level education and have the opportunity to reach university education (at that stage only 5% of the population attended third level education).  However, this provision did not mean that everyone could afford to have their children at secondary school.  If Catholic parents had low paid work which was the norm then they needed their children to become earners as soon as possible and to leave school and get a job.  Therefore, the Catholic population remained largely poorly education at secondary level for many years after 1947.  However, some families became determined to provide their children with an education and made major sacrifices to keep their children at school.  This provided an increasing educated Catholic cohort, some managing to get to university education.  Their education did not improve their opportunities of work in government institutions.

The democratic deficit at district council level applied to both Catholic and Protestants because as well as discriminating against catholics the unionist establishment wanted to keep their own people in subjection with governments which were conservative/right wing in political position.  Councils provided votes only to rates payers, so if you didn't own property you couldn't vote in council elections.  However, business owners got multiple votes because they paid high levels of rates.  This led to councils that were business owner supporters and ignoring working classes particularly the Catholics but councils ran public housing and education so Catholics and poor Protestants were discriminated against by councils in housing matters but with Catholics at the bottom of the pile.

Then from 1968 on the Catholic population mobilised in protest, working class Protestants were largely paid off by having access to jobs usually low paid and kept in fear by being told the Catholics were uprising for a united Ireland.  The state reacted badly to being confronted.

However, the McCrory Report in 1970 signalled the end of the institutionalised discrimination by providing all with votes in local government and dismantling the apparatus of the state away from discriminating unionist dominated councils. In 1971 the N.Ireland Housing Executive was formed, taking public housing away from discriminating councils. The Local Government (Boundaries) Act (Northern Ireland) 1971 and the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 replaced the previous system established by the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898. This replaced the 6 county councils and two borough councils with 26 local councils and ended much of the gerrymandering.

So, from 1972, all citizens of N.Ireland had equal rights in housing, education and local government. By 1976, the Fair Employment Act prohibited discrimination in the workplace on the grounds of religion and established a Fair Employment Agency.

So, from the early 70s discrimination had been removed from institutions and democratic bodies but the same people were still in most civil service and local government jobs and catholics had to resort to legal routes to work their way to top in these areas.

Therefore, all talk of discrimination by the state after the early 70s is largely inaccurate, it still existed with some individuals unless challenged using the agencies that had been created by the UK government.  The problem from early 70s lies with the greater segregation and polarisation of the population caused by the on-going violence of the IRA and UVF/UDA.  From early 70s anyone can get a job or a house or an education anywhere but they will not feel comfortable in the segregated society that has formed.  Polarisation of the communities has become much sharper over the last 40 years and whole populations have moved to make new small towns and some people have been moved in the ethnic cleansing (N.Ireland style) that occurred in the 30 year conflict.

Are you having a laugh??

If you read what I have written you will see that the institutions to remove discrimination as provided from the McCrory Report removed the main elements of state which were in place to allow discrimination.  As I have stated the issue of discrimination remaining was down to the people in state organisation and businesses who continued to discriminate and break the law in doing so. 

Up until the NIHE, ELBs, Fair Employment act and the local government act, all from earlier 70s, it was not illegal for state bodies and business to discriminate in the fields of housing, education and employment. 

The safeguards that ensure discrimination on a religious basis as had happened from the beginning of N.Ireland are no longer acceptable or legal in 2017 were in place from early 70s.  That is a fact.  Did discrimination still occur, yes, but it could be contested, beaten and compensated for thanks to the new institutions and parliamentary acts put in place from early 70s.

Does discrimination still occur in 2017, yes it does but by both sides of the community and those affected have the legal right of challenge and recompense thanks to the laws enacted in 1970's and amended on occasions since then to make them broader and more effective.

There is nothing introduced since the early 1970s that has suddenly made discrimination disappear apart from amendments and improvements to the existing legislation.

You sound like a chap who was in the UDR or had relatives in the UDR.

Neither.  Just someone who has lived through the worst of times in this country and someone able to take an objective view of the factual account of what happened during the last 50 years and not absorbing the alternative narratives now being peddled by both sides to justify their actions.

Your view doesn't seem objective at all. It seems very subjective and contrary to factual events and incidents. In short, you're talking bollocks.

When I get that type of reply from you, I always know I am on the right lines. You are unable to provide any logical argument or repudiation of the facts I have presented instead preferring to slur my name and character as I have highlighted above and then to dismiss anything that argues against your viewpoint.

Your whole viewpoint is based on an illogical argument and nothing of substance so I don't have make an argument as such, which is why I've just alluded to it being the type of apologist nonsense a UDR member would make. This seems to have touched a nerve with you, unsurprisingly.


Minder

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1807 on: December 09, 2017, 10:04:04 PM »
Try and argue the point anyway to see how you get on.
"When it's too tough for them, it's just right for us"

Owen Brannigan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1808 on: December 09, 2017, 10:18:45 PM »
Try and argue the point anyway to see how you get on.

When you set out a position as I have done, how can you begin to have any form of logical argument with person who posts this type of slur and nonsense:

Quote from: Il Bomber Destro
You sound like a chap who was in the UDR or had relatives in the UDR.

and

Quote from: Il Bomber Destro
Your view doesn't seem objective at all. It seems very subjective and contrary to factual events and incidents. In short, you're talking bollocks.

As a wise poster on this Board used to have as his signature, a variation on a quotation from Mark Twain who took it from the Bible:

"Do not argue with a fool, he will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience"

I think I will follow his advice when dealing with Il Bomber Destro.





« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 10:34:09 PM by Owen Brannigan »

Il Bomber Destro

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1809 on: December 09, 2017, 10:55:57 PM »
Try and argue the point anyway to see how you get on.

When you set out a position as I have done, how can you begin to have any form of logical argument with person who posts this type of slur and nonsense:

Quote from: Il Bomber Destro
You sound like a chap who was in the UDR or had relatives in the UDR.

and

Quote from: Il Bomber Destro
Your view doesn't seem objective at all. It seems very subjective and contrary to factual events and incidents. In short, you're talking bollocks.

As a wise poster on this Board used to have as his signature, a variation on a quotation from Mark Twain who took it from the Bible:

"Do not argue with a fool, he will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience"

I think I will follow his advice when dealing with Il Bomber Destro.

It's bemusing how you expect people to have logical debates with you when you put forward illogical, baseless nonsense.

T Fearon

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1810 on: December 11, 2017, 08:48:35 AM »
I see Leo has written a comfort letter to Unionists in Belfast Telegraph today assuring them he has no ulterior motives (ie no United Ireland) in taking a hard stance over Brexit.

Can you imagine Unionists or the British Govt grovelling to Nationalists in a similar fashion?

Rossfan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1811 on: December 11, 2017, 08:58:13 AM »
I thought you as a "northernirish" nationalist would be very happy to read that.
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T Fearon

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1812 on: December 11, 2017, 09:11:55 AM »
It's because of letters like this that I came to the realisation that Irish nationalist aspirations are senseless when they are not shared by Dublin Govts.Leo's grovelling to Unionists will lose him no votes because his electorate do not want a United Ireland

BennyCake

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1813 on: December 11, 2017, 09:46:51 AM »
I see Leo has written a comfort letter to Unionists in Belfast Telegraph today assuring them he has no ulterior motives (ie no United Ireland) in taking a hard stance over Brexit.

Can you imagine Unionists or the British Govt grovelling to Nationalists in a similar fashion?

Those letters from Westminster in 1922 must still be in the post then.

Dublin would bend over backwards for Unionists in a UI. Northern nationalists would again be treated as second class citizens. Look at how SF were treated by Dublin media, and the likes of Rhonda Paisley with her own TV show interviewing her unionist cronies. Suffering Jesus!

Rossfan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1814 on: December 11, 2017, 09:48:11 AM »
Only one thing for it so Tony - start up the "NIIP".
You can be the new Farage.
Ye could set up a new union with Albania and Moldova.
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