Author Topic: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.  (Read 105669 times)

Milltown Row2

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1770 on: December 07, 2017, 11:27:34 PM »
There is not going to be a United Ireland.No Unionist wants it,a substantial proportion of Catholics don't want it,and most importantly of all,the majority of the people in the South and the Dublin Govt don't want it.Continue to delude yourselves if you must,but these are hard facts.
Substantial number of catholics, have you a figure? Not a made up one
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Rossfan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1771 on: December 07, 2017, 11:36:12 PM »
Of course no Unionist wants a UI.
If they did they wouldn't be Unionists.
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T Fearon

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1772 on: December 08, 2017, 06:10:25 AM »
Correct.But there are many on here who think they can be persuaded.Last Monday they wouldn't even contemplate an Irish Sea border never mind Irish Unity! They can't be persuaded. FFS an Opinion Poll up here not too long ago showed that not all Sinn Fein supporters wanted a United Ireland even!

yellowcard

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1773 on: December 08, 2017, 08:43:44 AM »
Economically it has become a no brainer, the statelet is in a permanent state of disrepair in its current guise.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/demographics-are-shifting-towards-a-united-ireland-we-must-have-a-plan-35865222.html

Also the demographics show that unionists still have a significant majority at older age groups. As the age profile gets younger this veers towards a nationalist majority. Be it 10/20/30 years time, at some point in the not too distant future this will translate into an overall majority. Once the economic argument can be won this will lead to an inevitable UI.

T Fearon

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1774 on: December 08, 2017, 08:55:55 AM »
Demographics mean nothing.Unionists are getting ready to celebrate their 100th birthday.Expect to see a pledge to reach 200.Then again there is the issue that very few in the South want a United Ireland.None of us will ever see it.

Again I ask the question,what makes anyone think a United Ireland is viable when the South went bankrupt despite its love affair with the EU? What is the difference in swapping sovereign govt by Britain for that of the EU? Or as I suspect is everyone just politically motivated by outcomes that will annoy the prods?

Owen Brannigan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1775 on: December 08, 2017, 10:27:36 AM »
Life experiences in N.Ireland across the Catholic community varied in the period up to 1967 just as you would find in most societies.  In terms of discrimination against the Catholic community it is important to realise that it was institutional, i.e. the democratic deficit in N.Ireland was produced by gerrymandering over a long period of time to ensure that the absolute minimum number of Catholic representatives could be returned to Stormont and the district councils.  Within government institutions those at the higher levels were from the Protestant community and ensured that new employees came from their own community, so most civil service and similar jobs were given to Protestants regardless of their merit compared to Catholic applicants.  In businesses, there was segregation of the communities, Protestant firms employed Protestants and Catholic firms employed Catholics.  There were some instances of crossover but Catholics could never attain jobs in Protestant firms at anything other than in menial jobs that Protestants wouldn't do, not dissimilar to today's situation where migrants take the jobs that the locals don't want to do.

The one good thing that came from the Unionist parliament was the 1947 Education Act which provided free and universal education for everyone at secondary level.  This meant that the Catholic population was able to access secondary level education and have the opportunity to reach university education (at that stage only 5% of the population attended third level education).  However, this provision did not mean that everyone could afford to have their children at secondary school.  If Catholic parents had low paid work which was the norm then they needed their children to become earners as soon as possible and to leave school and get a job.  Therefore, the Catholic population remained largely poorly education at secondary level for many years after 1947.  However, some families became determined to provide their children with an education and made major sacrifices to keep their children at school.  This provided an increasing educated Catholic cohort, some managing to get to university education.  Their education did not improve their opportunities of work in government institutions.

The democratic deficit at district council level applied to both Catholic and Protestants because as well as discriminating against catholics the unionist establishment wanted to keep their own people in subjection with governments which were conservative/right wing in political position.  Councils provided votes only to rates payers, so if you didn't own property you couldn't vote in council elections.  However, business owners got multiple votes because they paid high levels of rates.  This led to councils that were business owner supporters and ignoring working classes particularly the Catholics but councils ran public housing and education so Catholics and poor Protestants were discriminated against by councils in housing matters but with Catholics at the bottom of the pile.

Then from 1968 on the Catholic population mobilised in protest, working class Protestants were largely paid off by having access to jobs usually low paid and kept in fear by being told the Catholics were uprising for a united Ireland.  The state reacted badly to being confronted.

However, the McCrory Report in 1970 signalled the end of the institutionalised discrimination by providing all with votes in local government and dismantling the apparatus of the state away from discriminating unionist dominated councils. In 1971 the N.Ireland Housing Executive was formed, taking public housing away from discriminating councils. The Local Government (Boundaries) Act (Northern Ireland) 1971 and the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 replaced the previous system established by the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898. This replaced the 6 county councils and two borough councils with 26 local councils and ended much of the gerrymandering.

So, from 1972, all citizens of N.Ireland had equal rights in housing, education and local government. By 1976, the Fair Employment Act prohibited discrimination in the workplace on the grounds of religion and established a Fair Employment Agency.

So, from the early 70s discrimination had been removed from institutions and democratic bodies but the same people were still in most civil service and local government jobs and catholics had to resort to legal routes to work their way to top in these areas.

Therefore, all talk of discrimination by the state after the early 70s is largely inaccurate, it still existed with some individuals unless challenged using the agencies that had been created by the UK government.  The problem from early 70s lies with the greater segregation and polarisation of the population caused by the on-going violence of the IRA and UVF/UDA.  From early 70s anyone can get a job or a house or an education anywhere but they will not feel comfortable in the segregated society that has formed.  Polarisation of the communities has become much sharper over the last 40 years and whole populations have moved to make new small towns and some people have been moved in the ethnic cleansing (N.Ireland style) that occurred in the 30 year conflict.

yellowcard

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1776 on: December 08, 2017, 10:35:20 AM »
Demographics mean nothing.Unionists are getting ready to celebrate their 100th birthday.Expect to see a pledge to reach 200.Then again there is the issue that very few in the South want a United Ireland.None of us will ever see it.

Again I ask the question,what makes anyone think a United Ireland is viable when the South went bankrupt despite its love affair with the EU? What is the difference in swapping sovereign govt by Britain for that of the EU? Or as I suspect is everyone just politically motivated by outcomes that will annoy the prods?

Demographic's mean everything you eejit.

vallankumous

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1777 on: December 08, 2017, 10:54:43 AM »


Therefore, all talk of discrimination by the state after the early 70s is largely inaccurate, it still existed with some individuals unless challenged using the agencies that had been created by the UK government.  The problem from early 70s lies with the greater segregation and polarisation of the population caused by the on-going violence of the IRA and UVF/UDA.  From early 70s anyone can get a job or a house or an education anywhere but they will not feel comfortable in the segregated society that has formed.  Polarisation of the communities has become much sharper over the last 40 years and whole populations have moved to make new small towns and some people have been moved in the ethnic cleansing (N.Ireland style) that occurred in the 30 year conflict.

Big introduction to get this far and then leave out Policing and the British Army.
Do you think Internment from 1971 - 75 was not discriminatory? Or the following removal of political status and prison conditions into the 80s?
Bloody Sunday in 1972 and the following investigations into it.
The Establishment, Arming and supporting of the UDR criminality.
Further cover ups and framing by security forces.

There are many more. Discrimination was not based solely on civic opportunity and it's false to claim it was. I fully understand that many of these discriminating decisions by the State were in response to the IRA. However, we are discussing the discrimination by the State. The State used the IRA to further discriminate after the end of civic discrimination. It's not true to say the State could not address the IRA without discrimination of the Catholic/Nationalist community.

These things were not individual discrimination. It was policy.

johnneycool

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1778 on: December 08, 2017, 11:03:54 AM »
The 1947 education act in NI was not some sort of unilateral gift from the Unionist Parliament as they took over two years to enact something that was already in place in Great Britain.

Rossfan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1779 on: December 08, 2017, 11:41:59 AM »
They were forced into it by the Labour Government in Westminster.
They didn't want to implement it because they knew what it would lead to.
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Milltown Row2

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1780 on: December 08, 2017, 12:00:17 PM »
They were forced into it by the Labour Government in Westminster.
They didn't want to implement it because they knew what it would lead to.

I was going to happen ffs!

Health and Safety act was started in 1974, it became an act in NI in 1978.. we were always last to pick up on these things
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vallankumous

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1781 on: December 08, 2017, 12:03:19 PM »


I was going to happen ffs!

Health and Safety act was started in 1974, it became an act in NI in 1978.. we were always last to pick up on these things

Corporal punishment in schools two. I had the head slapped of me while the wee brother got scolded. He was a wee brat too.

Milltown Row2

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1782 on: December 08, 2017, 12:05:32 PM »
Thats whats wrong with kids now!! I'm phoning child line!! when you threaten to take their phone off them  ;D ;D the one you pay 20 a month for
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Franko

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1783 on: December 08, 2017, 12:58:17 PM »
Life experiences in N.Ireland across the Catholic community varied in the period up to 1967 just as you would find in most societies.  In terms of discrimination against the Catholic community it is important to realise that it was institutional, i.e. the democratic deficit in N.Ireland was produced by gerrymandering over a long period of time to ensure that the absolute minimum number of Catholic representatives could be returned to Stormont and the district councils.  Within government institutions those at the higher levels were from the Protestant community and ensured that new employees came from their own community, so most civil service and similar jobs were given to Protestants regardless of their merit compared to Catholic applicants.  In businesses, there was segregation of the communities, Protestant firms employed Protestants and Catholic firms employed Catholics.  There were some instances of crossover but Catholics could never attain jobs in Protestant firms at anything other than in menial jobs that Protestants wouldn't do, not dissimilar to today's situation where migrants take the jobs that the locals don't want to do.

The one good thing that came from the Unionist parliament was the 1947 Education Act which provided free and universal education for everyone at secondary level.  This meant that the Catholic population was able to access secondary level education and have the opportunity to reach university education (at that stage only 5% of the population attended third level education).  However, this provision did not mean that everyone could afford to have their children at secondary school.  If Catholic parents had low paid work which was the norm then they needed their children to become earners as soon as possible and to leave school and get a job.  Therefore, the Catholic population remained largely poorly education at secondary level for many years after 1947.  However, some families became determined to provide their children with an education and made major sacrifices to keep their children at school.  This provided an increasing educated Catholic cohort, some managing to get to university education.  Their education did not improve their opportunities of work in government institutions.

The democratic deficit at district council level applied to both Catholic and Protestants because as well as discriminating against catholics the unionist establishment wanted to keep their own people in subjection with governments which were conservative/right wing in political position.  Councils provided votes only to rates payers, so if you didn't own property you couldn't vote in council elections.  However, business owners got multiple votes because they paid high levels of rates.  This led to councils that were business owner supporters and ignoring working classes particularly the Catholics but councils ran public housing and education so Catholics and poor Protestants were discriminated against by councils in housing matters but with Catholics at the bottom of the pile.

Then from 1968 on the Catholic population mobilised in protest, working class Protestants were largely paid off by having access to jobs usually low paid and kept in fear by being told the Catholics were uprising for a united Ireland.  The state reacted badly to being confronted.

However, the McCrory Report in 1970 signalled the end of the institutionalised discrimination by providing all with votes in local government and dismantling the apparatus of the state away from discriminating unionist dominated councils. In 1971 the N.Ireland Housing Executive was formed, taking public housing away from discriminating councils. The Local Government (Boundaries) Act (Northern Ireland) 1971 and the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 replaced the previous system established by the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898. This replaced the 6 county councils and two borough councils with 26 local councils and ended much of the gerrymandering.

So, from 1972, all citizens of N.Ireland had equal rights in housing, education and local government. By 1976, the Fair Employment Act prohibited discrimination in the workplace on the grounds of religion and established a Fair Employment Agency.

So, from the early 70s discrimination had been removed from institutions and democratic bodies but the same people were still in most civil service and local government jobs and catholics had to resort to legal routes to work their way to top in these areas.

Therefore, all talk of discrimination by the state after the early 70s is largely inaccurate, it still existed with some individuals unless challenged using the agencies that had been created by the UK government.  The problem from early 70s lies with the greater segregation and polarisation of the population caused by the on-going violence of the IRA and UVF/UDA.  From early 70s anyone can get a job or a house or an education anywhere but they will not feel comfortable in the segregated society that has formed.  Polarisation of the communities has become much sharper over the last 40 years and whole populations have moved to make new small towns and some people have been moved in the ethnic cleansing (N.Ireland style) that occurred in the 30 year conflict.

Are you having a laugh??

T Fearon

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1784 on: December 08, 2017, 02:53:31 PM »
What about the Catholic Professional classes? They seemed to do alright in the leafy suburbs.I knew of a Senior Catholic Servant back in the day who seemed to do nothing else only try and work out the religious affiliation of each new staff member and boasted he could do this in an hour.There was always Catholic businesses in Portadown town centre.They couldn't have survived without the support of all sections.

Did the people of the Shankhill Road benefit from having a perpetual Unionist government? I think not.Not so long ago there were houses in the loyalist village area of Belfast still with outside toilets.

Grossly exaggerated and not a barrier at all to those who were determined and willing to work to make the most of opportunities.