A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[smelmoth]

So what would you do with pro-union votes? GFA and all that?

You are confident that a UI in 1922 would have been less sectarian than partition?

Alternative history is always a bit tricky. From the start the unionists set out to wreck a UI rather than work to get a proper settlement for themselves within it, so they were committed to sectarianism all along.

You are confident that a UI now would be less sectarian th\n what we have now?

Yes, in the traditional sense. We'd probably get together and try to stop the place being taken over by Muslims.

Interested to find out how you are going back any of this up.

And what are you going to do with them unionist votes? That bit is missing from your post

[smelmoth]

I think if you can't differentiate between the two ideologies and the actors involved then you need to read a bit more.

http://m.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-tribal-bigotry-is-not-a-response-to-ira-violence-it-was-there-before-26745097.html

If some boyo kills someone because they are a catholic then they will treated as scum and should be pursued by the law.
If some boyo kills someone because they are a protestant then they will treated as scum and should be pursued by the law.
If some boyo reacts to the murder of a fellow protestant by deciding to become "an actor" and to kill someone because they are a catholic then they will treated as scum and should be pursued by the law.
If some boyo reacts to the murder of a fellow catholic by deciding to become "an actor" and to kill someone because they are a protestant then they will treated as scum and should be pursued by the law.

There is no difference and no differentiation

There is an ideology of a union. Its a legitimate ideology but within it there is a bitter and twisted ideology that would never accept a democratically mandated UI, that wants to keep the 2 communities apart and has no interest in a shared future or tolerating other cultures. That ideology is a subset of the unionist ideology and does not represent the whole.

There is an ideology of a united ireland. Its a legitimate ideology but within it there is a bitter and twisted ideology that cannot accept that there is a majority in favour of the union today and therefore we remain within the UK. That sub-set wants to keep the 2 communities apart and has no interest in a share future or tolerating other cultures. That ideology is a subset of the nationalist ideology and does not represent the whole.

The extremes are equally reprehensible but there is heck of a lot of decent people getting on with life. Regrettably too many of these people have turned off politics and have allowed the stage to be dominated by the nutters

[charlieTully]

I think if you can't differentiate between the two ideologies and the actors involved then you need to read a bit more.

http://m.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-tribal-bigotry-is-not-a-response-to-ira-violence-it-was-there-before-26745097.html

If some boyo kills someone because they are a catholic then they will treated as scum and should be pursued by the law.
If some boyo kills someone because they are a protestant then they will treated as scum and should be pursued by the law.
If some boyo reacts to the murder of a fellow protestant by deciding to become "an actor" and to kill someone because they are a catholic then they will treated as scum and should be pursued by the law.
If some boyo reacts to the murder of a fellow catholic by deciding to become "an actor" and to kill someone because they are a protestant then they will treated as scum and should be pursued by the law.

There is no difference and no differentiation

There is an ideology of a union. Its a legitimate ideology but within it there is a bitter and twisted ideology that would never accept a democratically mandated UI, that wants to keep the 2 communities apart and has no interest in a shared future or tolerating other cultures. That ideology is a subset of the unionist ideology and does not represent the whole.

There is an ideology of a united ireland. Its a legitimate ideology but within it there is a bitter and twisted ideology that cannot accept that there is a majority in favour of the union today and therefore we remain within the UK. That sub-set wants to keep the 2 communities apart and has no interest in a share future or tolerating other cultures. That ideology is a subset of the nationalist ideology and does not represent the whole.

The extremes are equally reprehensible but there is heck of a lot of decent people getting on with life. Regrettably too many of these people have turned off politics and have allowed the stage to be dominated by the nutters

100,000 of them turn up at scarva each year to get on with their life, regrettably too many of these people don't think about the reality of their actions and put it down to a fun family day dressed up as culture, if 100,000 nationalists gathered to celebrate an ancient victory over their neighbours would it be acceptable?, answer is we don't do shit like that, a football final yes, if enough tickets were available, the average easter parade has a couple of hundred attending. A heck of a lot of decent people are getting on with their lives but they are mostly on one side.

[Orior]

Could you imagine the outrage if Catholics celebrated the fictitious murder of Protestants in county Armagh in the 18th century?

The rise of the Linen thread and other industrial innovations meant that in the early 18th century many Catholic families grew rich. The Penal Laws continued to surpress them, and many Protestants were aggrieved at their wealth. So they made up stories about Catholics being able to afford weapons and storing them in their homes. That gave the Peep O'Day boys enough incentive to search Catholic houses, and then burn them out.

[T Fearon]

Yes,and the Dublin Government you are all so anxious to be ruled by,funds an interpretive centre at the site of the Battle of the Boyne,and would indulge unionists in their every whim if there was a United Ireland tomorrow.

All this will pale into insignificance if and when the obsolete political forces of nationalism and unionism are forced into minor roles behind a predominant Northern Irish culture and political outlook that looks to the future not the past

[armaghniac]

Interested to find out how you are going back any of this up.

Why do I need to back up a simple statement of history?

And what are you going to do with them unionist votes? That bit is missing from your post

I'm not proposing to stop anyone voting. I am suggesting they reflect on the moral implications of the parties they are voting for.

There is an ideology of a union. Its a legitimate ideology

Proposing that Ireland be united with some place is a legitimate philosophy, carving off part of the country in a sectarian statelet making Irish people second class citizens is not, and that is true whether you are James Craig or Tony Fearon.

[charlieTully]

Yes,and the Dublin Government you are all so anxious to be ruled by,funds an interpretive centre at the site of the Battle of the Boyne,and would indulge unionists in their every whim if there was a United Ireland tomorrow.

All this will pale into insignificance if and when the obsolete political forces of nationalism and unionism are forced into minor roles behind a predominant Northern Irish culture and political outlook that looks to the future not the past

I could possibly embrace such a culture Tony if days like the 13th become obselete. I am attending a pub quiz in youre adopted village Fri night for a local charity. Call down if you are free. Rices hotel. You and orior could set up an ard macha we only won once team.

[T Fearon]

Days like 12th and 13th of July don't bother me,as I do what I want to.I certainly don't sit brooding or feeling oppressed because people choose to march with coloured sashes.

By the way in Portadown Town Centre,when I was a youngster,a West Belfast Catholic owned a pub,and always said that the 12th and 13th of July were his best business days.He always made sure the brethren went to the Field or Scarva with thirst fully quenched,and awaited their return later that evening with glee,as he made another killing,in the financial sense

[charlieTully]

I don't sit brooding either but if there is to be a new NI acceptable to all as you are proposing the old culture of dominance is not possible. Or is it?

[T Fearon]

The only dominant people in North today,as in South,and everywhere else,are the rich and powerful,and this group includes Catholic and Protestant.Both sides have freedom to March,if that's what tickles their fancy,and there is a full range of legislation to protect everyone from discrimination.

[No wides]

The only dominant people in North today,as in South,and everywhere else,are the rich and powerful,and this group includes Catholic and Protestant.Both sides have freedom to March,if that's what tickles their fancy,and there is a full range of legislation to protect everyone from discrimination.

You are from Portadown and you spout this crap, you really are an attention seeking parasite.

[general_lee]

I don't recall anywhere where I've denied any Republican wrong doing so spare me the sanctimonious crap. There is scum on both sides. Atrocities carried out by both.

What I am challenging is this lazy notion that both sides are as bad as each other in terms of sectarianism when they are clearly not.

[The Gs Man]

You can close this thread now lads.  Sure after the rioting in Lurgan last night and the hoax bombs on the railway lines we're now waking up to a United Ireland.

No, wait.  It just means my kids can't walk to school this morning and pensioners can't get out of their homes for a while.

[Applesisapples]

All down to perceptions,both sides perceive their armies weren't terrorists just defenders of the people.

N Ireland does exist and will continue to exist for two simple reasons. 1.The majority of its people,now arguably on both sides,do not want constitutional change. 2.The freestate neither wants nor can afford N Ireland.

Once you accept these blindingly obvious and irrefutable facts,you by logic,accept that the politics of unionism and nationalism are obsolete and that new parties and a new political focus is needed,on attainable goals like fostering and prioritising  a common Northern Irish ethos and identity.

Looking forward to you dressed up in your new NI soccer kit and your Rangers scarf. Tony once again you are arguing for the sake of it, ignoring facts and creating your own little fantasy. I think not even you believe what you are saying.

[T Fearon]

Embracing a Northern Irish culture does not mean becoming an ultra loyalist or nationalist.

By the way I see Enda was over licking Cameron's asshole today,begging him not to leave the EU.If only uniting Ireland caused a tenth as much passion in the South as the prospect of a Brexit does.