A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

Started by winghalfback, May 27, 2015, 03:16:23 PM

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T Fearon

Unionists in NI will never go,as they will not concede to a Unitec Ireland,and unlike Wales and Scotland NI could not make a reasonable attempt at independence

general_lee

Quote from: T Fearon on November 29, 2015, 10:03:34 PM
Unionists in NI will never go,as they will not concede to a Unitec Ireland,and unlike Wales and Scotland NI could not make a reasonable attempt at independence
10/20 years ago they wouldn't even talk about it.

You have politicians like Jeffrey Donaldson whoring up NI for trident in a desperate attempt to be relevant and seem British.

You have loyalists seeking the possibility of "special minority" status.

Belfast is no longer a loyalist city.

Its not as if they'll have a choice if and when the time comes for this country to be unified.

seafoid

Quote from: T Fearon on November 29, 2015, 10:03:34 PM
Unionists in NI will never go,as they will not concede to a Unitec Ireland,and unlike Wales and Scotland NI could not make a reasonable attempt at independence
English nationalism is the unknown factor, Tony. If it becomes a big issue, NI Unionists won't have much of a say. Like they can talk about the somme and all but nobody will be listening.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

armaghniac

Quote from: michaelg on November 29, 2015, 08:06:17 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 29, 2015, 08:03:15 AM
Unionists proper are now less than 50% of NI population and declining. People rooted in the 17th century should not be allowed determine the evolution of the 21st century.
By 'Unionists proper', I assume you mean protestants.  Unfortunately for you there are quite a few 'improper' unionists too.  Are they too rooted in the 17th century, or do they just perhaps prefer the benefits that come from remaining within the union.

No, why do assume I meant Protestants, do you think unionism is a sectarian thing? The improper unionists are not rooted in the 17th century and prefer the benefits of remaining in the union, and if there is no actual benefit to remaining in the union then they are open to discussions to end it. The point here is that there are others motivated by bigotry and a wish to continue a sordid colonisation project, the issue is whether these people's determination to remain inspired by the 17th century is an obstacle to peace and prosperity on this island in the 21st century.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Rossfan

Talking of the 17th Century I see Allister's Neanderthal Unionist Party had its conference over the weekend.
That must have been great fun ::)
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

michaelg

Quote from: armaghniac on November 30, 2015, 05:13:23 AM
Quote from: michaelg on November 29, 2015, 08:06:17 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 29, 2015, 08:03:15 AM
Unionists proper are now less than 50% of NI population and declining. People rooted in the 17th century should not be allowed determine the evolution of the 21st century.
By 'Unionists proper', I assume you mean protestants.  Unfortunately for you there are quite a few 'improper' unionists too.  Are they too rooted in the 17th century, or do they just perhaps prefer the benefits that come from remaining within the union.

No, why do assume I meant Protestants, do you think unionism is a sectarian thing? The improper unionists are not rooted in the 17th century and prefer the benefits of remaining in the union, and if there is no actual benefit to remaining in the union then they are open to discussions to end it. The point here is that there are others motivated by bigotry and a wish to continue a sordid colonisation project, the issue is whether these people's determination to remain inspired by the 17th century is an obstacle to peace and prosperity on this island in the 21st century.
What did you mean then by the term 'Unionists proper' when polls consistently show that considerably more, rather than less, than 50% of the population are in favour of retaining the Union?

armaghniac

There are people who would rather rather eat grass than see an end to the union, as described above. These I describe as unionists proper. Then there are those who think that in the present condition of NI that the union is best, but who are open to persuasion otherwise
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B


seafoid

Quote from: T Fearon on January 13, 2016, 06:15:04 AM
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/bridging-the-gap-on-irelands-increasing-divide-between-north-and-south-34353967.html

Don't particularly like O'Doherty but he's bang on the money here

Watch RTE's current affairs programme Primetime and you will rarely see northerners in the heat of their discussions about events down there. You will see instead a parade of pundits and political figures who almost never feature on discussion programmes in the North.
A few pundits and critics from the North are noticed in the South: Eamonn McCann, Susan McKay, Devlin. Almost none from there are regular guests on programmes here.


RTE is the ultimate partitionist institution

UTV tried to cross the border with new channel UTV Ireland, investing in the prospect of the emergence of a one island consciousness, and it failed miserably.
The people of both jurisdictions are settled comfortably with a sense of their parameters.
There are exceptions in sport and religion. Northern rugby players often play for Ireland and northern supporters travel to Dublin to cheer. But there is little chance of this being matched in football.


Even in Gaelic sports, northern teams like Tyrone getting into the All-Ireland final is talked of as something different, unusual, as an invasion of the barbarians from one perspective, an injection of raw genius from another, but either way, until very recently, a surprise, a break in the natural order.
Down started winning in 1960
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Applesisapples

I would say that there has not been to much closing of the gap between both sides in the North, let alone between North and South.

Hardy

Bigendians, Littendians. We are programmed to seek out the differences between us and divide ourselves into mutually hostile groups based on those differences. It would be amazing if, after a century of political separation and subjection to different sets of influences, Northerners and Southerners hadn't developed substantial differences in every facet of society. In Swiftian fashion, it only takes a perceived threat to the interests of one, for the other to be set up as the enemy by the first opportunistic demagogue.

Every fomenter of fear, hatred and suspicion, from Trump to German skinheads to posters here who try to whip up hatred of migrants, knows how to use this human trait.

general_lee

 ::)
So Malachi feels there's an increasing gap because:
1. Not enough northerners on RTE primetime
2. No one reads his books in the south
3. He didn't see the same people at two different exhibitions
4. Something a Kerry publican said to him

There's a certain brand of Belfast man, who considers anything outside Lisburn as "way out the country". His mentality is just an extension of this. Someone should tell him Tyrone won an All Ireland last year.

T Fearon

#252
Still cant argue with the basics.After 100 years we are essentially two separate statelets with different cultures with no appetite,much less a strategy for unity,coming from either North or South.Same applies between North and UK.Hence my contention that chasing the unity pipedream is a waste of time.Far better to concentrate on N Irishness,no one else cares or wants us.

general_lee

#253
Quote from: T Fearon on January 13, 2016, 12:26:34 PM
Still cant argue with the basics.After 100 years we are essentially two separate statelets with different cultures with no appetite,much less a strategy for unity,coming from either North or South.Same applies between North and UK.Hence my contention that chasing the unity pipedream is a waste of time.Far better to concentrate on N Irishness,no one else cares or wants us.
The basics as you call them are mainly yours and Malachi's opinion.

Separate cultures is bs. I have family and/or friends in every province. I have been in almost every county at some stage in my life. I have never once experienced any cultural difference while being with these people or in any other county.

While I agree there is no strategy from anyone, NI as it remains is an abject failure, heavily subsidised yet still the worst off part of the state on the periphery of the UK. I would respectfully disagree that seeking an alternative in the form of unification is not a waste of time nor is it a pipedream.


T Fearon

It is manifestly a waste of time when those with whom you wish to unite do not wish to unite with you,and their ministers admit on tv debates that unity is in any case unaffordable.