Author Topic: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.  (Read 121177 times)

Franko

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1815 on: December 11, 2017, 10:31:57 AM »
Life experiences in N.Ireland across the Catholic community varied in the period up to 1967 just as you would find in most societies.  In terms of discrimination against the Catholic community it is important to realise that it was institutional, i.e. the democratic deficit in N.Ireland was produced by gerrymandering over a long period of time to ensure that the absolute minimum number of Catholic representatives could be returned to Stormont and the district councils.  Within government institutions those at the higher levels were from the Protestant community and ensured that new employees came from their own community, so most civil service and similar jobs were given to Protestants regardless of their merit compared to Catholic applicants.  In businesses, there was segregation of the communities, Protestant firms employed Protestants and Catholic firms employed Catholics.  There were some instances of crossover but Catholics could never attain jobs in Protestant firms at anything other than in menial jobs that Protestants wouldn't do, not dissimilar to today's situation where migrants take the jobs that the locals don't want to do.

The one good thing that came from the Unionist parliament was the 1947 Education Act which provided free and universal education for everyone at secondary level.  This meant that the Catholic population was able to access secondary level education and have the opportunity to reach university education (at that stage only 5% of the population attended third level education).  However, this provision did not mean that everyone could afford to have their children at secondary school.  If Catholic parents had low paid work which was the norm then they needed their children to become earners as soon as possible and to leave school and get a job.  Therefore, the Catholic population remained largely poorly education at secondary level for many years after 1947.  However, some families became determined to provide their children with an education and made major sacrifices to keep their children at school.  This provided an increasing educated Catholic cohort, some managing to get to university education.  Their education did not improve their opportunities of work in government institutions.

The democratic deficit at district council level applied to both Catholic and Protestants because as well as discriminating against catholics the unionist establishment wanted to keep their own people in subjection with governments which were conservative/right wing in political position.  Councils provided votes only to rates payers, so if you didn't own property you couldn't vote in council elections.  However, business owners got multiple votes because they paid high levels of rates.  This led to councils that were business owner supporters and ignoring working classes particularly the Catholics but councils ran public housing and education so Catholics and poor Protestants were discriminated against by councils in housing matters but with Catholics at the bottom of the pile.

Then from 1968 on the Catholic population mobilised in protest, working class Protestants were largely paid off by having access to jobs usually low paid and kept in fear by being told the Catholics were uprising for a united Ireland.  The state reacted badly to being confronted.

However, the McCrory Report in 1970 signalled the end of the institutionalised discrimination by providing all with votes in local government and dismantling the apparatus of the state away from discriminating unionist dominated councils. In 1971 the N.Ireland Housing Executive was formed, taking public housing away from discriminating councils. The Local Government (Boundaries) Act (Northern Ireland) 1971 and the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 replaced the previous system established by the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898. This replaced the 6 county councils and two borough councils with 26 local councils and ended much of the gerrymandering.

So, from 1972, all citizens of N.Ireland had equal rights in housing, education and local government. By 1976, the Fair Employment Act prohibited discrimination in the workplace on the grounds of religion and established a Fair Employment Agency.

So, from the early 70s discrimination had been removed from institutions and democratic bodies but the same people were still in most civil service and local government jobs and catholics had to resort to legal routes to work their way to top in these areas.

Therefore, all talk of discrimination by the state after the early 70s is largely inaccurate, it still existed with some individuals unless challenged using the agencies that had been created by the UK government.  The problem from early 70s lies with the greater segregation and polarisation of the population caused by the on-going violence of the IRA and UVF/UDA.  From early 70s anyone can get a job or a house or an education anywhere but they will not feel comfortable in the segregated society that has formed.  Polarisation of the communities has become much sharper over the last 40 years and whole populations have moved to make new small towns and some people have been moved in the ethnic cleansing (N.Ireland style) that occurred in the 30 year conflict.

Are you having a laugh??

If you read what I have written you will see that the institutions to remove discrimination as provided from the McCrory Report removed the main elements of state which were in place to allow discrimination.  As I have stated the issue of discrimination remaining was down to the people in state organisation and businesses who continued to discriminate and break the law in doing so. 

Up until the NIHE, ELBs, Fair Employment act and the local government act, all from earlier 70s, it was not illegal for state bodies and business to discriminate in the fields of housing, education and employment. 

The safeguards that ensure discrimination on a religious basis as had happened from the beginning of N.Ireland are no longer acceptable or legal in 2017 were in place from early 70s.  That is a fact.  Did discrimination still occur, yes, but it could be contested, beaten and compensated for thanks to the new institutions and parliamentary acts put in place from early 70s.

Does discrimination still occur in 2017, yes it does but by both sides of the community and those affected have the legal right of challenge and recompense thanks to the laws enacted in 1970's and amended on occasions since then to make them broader and more effective.

There is nothing introduced since the early 1970s that has suddenly made discrimination disappear apart from amendments and improvements to the existing legislation.

Don't tell me you've been taken in by the "few rotten apples" shite.

There were many rotten apples in the administration of N.Ireland after the new laws and institutions and not least in the RUC but in the fields of education, housing and employment, every citizen had the right to challenge discrimination and seek recompense.

Discrimination did not end, as I have stated it continues today but both sides are guilty on many of the occasions on which is occurs on the basis of religion.  In 2017, Protestants find their paths blocked as often as Catholics when it comes to employment.

I am not saying that collusion did not occur, of course it did and innocent people were killed and injured as a result but that occurred after the early 1970s when it is now being re-written by some that the IRA was fighting the state on behalf of an oppressed and discriminated population when in fact all safeguards to prevent the behaviour of the state from 1920 until 1972 in relation to social issues were firmly in place.

It doesn't matter how many safeguards were written in the statute book.  It's TOTALLY irrelevant when the ultimate agents responsible for ensuring these safeguards were upheld were actively not enforcing them.

Simply put, discrimination was rife up until the late 90's.  The fact that they "said" they were going to stop in the 70's is neither here nor there.

That's nonsense, the laws were in place and legal aid was available, unions were geared up and ready to go to tribunals on behalf of their members.  No one was required to uphold the safeguards, employment tribunals consisted of an independent chair usually a legal expert, a person from the union side and a person from an employers background.  No lawyers were or are required at tribunals so any one could represent themselves or by their union.  Manners were put on employers from the moment the Fair Employment legislation was put on the books.  There was no one to stand in the way of employment laws or to put obstacles in the way of anyone wishing to use them to deal with discrimination in employment.  So, you are wrong. Some of the best employment law firms in N.Ireland cut their teeth representing people discriminated against from the implementation of the fair Employment Act.

The NIHE removed discrimination from housing by introducing transparent points system for allocation of houses, no longer the prerogative of politicians or unionist biased administrators.  They may not have got it right every time but with the local government act, nationalist councillors had access to the decision making process.  The polarisation of the population helped in many ways as Catholic only wanted to live among other Catholics so they were no longer competing for the same houses with Protestants and losing like the famous case in Caledon highlighting the discrimination rife in the old county council system.  The issue with NIHE came when it bought land to build more houses and it wasn't always possible to get the same amount of land in some Catholic and Protestant areas because West Belfast was so hemmed in but relieved when NIHE was allowed to develop Poleglass whereas East Belfast had more room to expand into North Down.  NIHE was also populated with a fair distribution of Catholic and Protestant administrators even to the highest levels. 

In education, the ELBs brought in maintained schools status for Catholic schools but had to persuade the Catholic Church to work with them, this provided 100% funding for all schools by the beginning of 1980s with the delay due to the Church opposition not some bogey men as you would prefer.  ELBs were managed by administrators whose religion rejected their catchment area and many Catholics led them and had positions of authority in them from the beginning as they were new institutions.

The introduction of the anti discrimination laws meant that everyone had legal protection from discrimination in housing, education and employment.  Armed with a solicitor and legal aid or a union representative no one had to suffer from discrimination in any of these social areas.

As I said above discrimination didn't end with new laws but it allowed the individual to challenge it with the law at his/her back.  What did increase in the 1990s was discrimination of the Protestant population by Catholic firms or Catholics in positions in businesses or other organisation or local government or education.

Quote from: Franko
The fact that they "said" they were going to stop in the 70's is neither here nor there.

No one "said" they were going to stop in the 70's, laws were put on the statute book and Catholics were able to challenge discrimination in housing, education or employment knowing that the law was on their side and they had their own solicitors and unions to back them up.

And what I said was that it's totally irrelevant what laws were written in the early 70's.  Discrimination was still rife.  End of story.

Have you any stats to back up your big assertion about the 90's?

armaghniac

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1816 on: December 11, 2017, 10:46:42 AM »
Laws are all very fine, but if the nature of an organisation is that you have to sue to be treated fairly do you really want to work there?
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Applesisapples

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1817 on: December 11, 2017, 11:00:16 AM »
Branching off a bit here, but with Fair Employment introduced which enabled more Catholics to get certain jobs. Now that's in place, has even those Catholics been forced down the list and LBGT's taken priority for jobs? Just a thought.

A terrible, regressive thought that ignores the very basic laws of recruitment. Do you think a gay person has their sexuality tattooed on their forehead or something?

If you're going to try to vaguely target a minority group at least spell it right.

It's an acronym. You cant "spell" an acronym.

Well, if a gay thought by declaring they were gay on a form (which I presume is an option these days), they might declare it if they thought it would increase their chances.
You are an offensive moron.

What's offensive about that?
Seriously?

Owen Brannigan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1818 on: December 11, 2017, 01:24:49 PM »


And what I said was that it's totally irrelevant what laws were written in the early 70's.  Discrimination was still rife.  End of story.

Have you any stats to back up your big assertion about the 90's?

What stats do you have to say that discrimination was rife until the late 90s?

What brought this sudden end to discrimination from the late 90s?

Check out the results of the tribunals that are now on line to see the level and type of discrimination:

https://employmenttribunalsni.co.uk/OITFET_IWS/DecisionSearchResults.aspx

With laws in place from early 70s anyone who believed they were discriminated against was able to take their case to a Tribunal at no cost to themselves and with the support of a solicitor or union.

Franko

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1819 on: December 11, 2017, 01:51:55 PM »


And what I said was that it's totally irrelevant what laws were written in the early 70's.  Discrimination was still rife.  End of story.

Have you any stats to back up your big assertion about the 90's?

What stats do you have to say that discrimination was rife until the late 90s?

What brought this sudden end to discrimination from the late 90s?

Check out the results of the tribunals that are now on line to see the level and type of discrimination:

https://employmenttribunalsni.co.uk/OITFET_IWS/DecisionSearchResults.aspx

With laws in place from early 70s anyone who believed they were discriminated against was able to take their case to a Tribunal at no cost to themselves and with the support of a solicitor or union.

Is that a serious question?

Here's a stat for you:

In 1992, the unemployment rate for Catholics was TWICE as high as that in the Protestant community.  In 1992.  This is approximately 20 YEARS after you said that discrimination had ended.  Maybe the Catholics were just lazy.

Also, was the legislation not enacted in 1976?

johnneycool

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1820 on: December 11, 2017, 02:52:25 PM »


And what I said was that it's totally irrelevant what laws were written in the early 70's.  Discrimination was still rife.  End of story.

Have you any stats to back up your big assertion about the 90's?

What stats do you have to say that discrimination was rife until the late 90s?

What brought this sudden end to discrimination from the late 90s?

Check out the results of the tribunals that are now on line to see the level and type of discrimination:

https://employmenttribunalsni.co.uk/OITFET_IWS/DecisionSearchResults.aspx

With laws in place from early 70s anyone who believed they were discriminated against was able to take their case to a Tribunal at no cost to themselves and with the support of a solicitor or union.

Is that a serious question?

Here's a stat for you:

In 1992, the unemployment rate for Catholics was TWICE as high as that in the Protestant community.  In 1992.  This is approximately 20 YEARS after you said that discrimination had ended.  Maybe the Catholics were just lazy.

Also, was the legislation not enacted in 1976?


The Fair Employment and Treatment (Northern Ireland) Order 1998 came into place as the name suggests in 1998.

I wasn't aware of anything prior to that or if there was why was there a need for the 1998 version?

tiempo

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1821 on: December 11, 2017, 03:27:32 PM »


And what I said was that it's totally irrelevant what laws were written in the early 70's.  Discrimination was still rife.  End of story.

Have you any stats to back up your big assertion about the 90's?

What stats do you have to say that discrimination was rife until the late 90s?

What brought this sudden end to discrimination from the late 90s?

Check out the results of the tribunals that are now on line to see the level and type of discrimination:

https://employmenttribunalsni.co.uk/OITFET_IWS/DecisionSearchResults.aspx

With laws in place from early 70s anyone who believed they were discriminated against was able to take their case to a Tribunal at no cost to themselves and with the support of a solicitor or union.

Is that a serious question?

Here's a stat for you:

In 1992, the unemployment rate for Catholics was TWICE as high as that in the Protestant community.  In 1992.  This is approximately 20 YEARS after you said that discrimination had ended.  Maybe the Catholics were just lazy.

Also, was the legislation not enacted in 1976?

I mean obviously from 1976 the unionists were keeping detailed figures of their misrule and discrimination, all of which they have published to show them for the belligerent occupants they have been, which can be accessed at the click of a button and reproduced ad nauseam. Because they're good like that.

Rossfan

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Franko

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1823 on: December 12, 2017, 08:53:16 AM »


And what I said was that it's totally irrelevant what laws were written in the early 70's.  Discrimination was still rife.  End of story.

Have you any stats to back up your big assertion about the 90's?

What stats do you have to say that discrimination was rife until the late 90s?

What brought this sudden end to discrimination from the late 90s?

Check out the results of the tribunals that are now on line to see the level and type of discrimination:

https://employmenttribunalsni.co.uk/OITFET_IWS/DecisionSearchResults.aspx

With laws in place from early 70s anyone who believed they were discriminated against was able to take their case to a Tribunal at no cost to themselves and with the support of a solicitor or union.

Is that a serious question?

Here's a stat for you:

In 1992, the unemployment rate for Catholics was TWICE as high as that in the Protestant community.  In 1992.  This is approximately 20 YEARS after you said that discrimination had ended.  Maybe the Catholics were just lazy.

Also, was the legislation not enacted in 1976?


The Fair Employment and Treatment (Northern Ireland) Order 1998 came into place as the name suggests in 1998.

I wasn't aware of anything prior to that or if there was why was there a need for the 1998 version?

Just a cut and paste from some .gov.uk site.

"The Fair Employment Acts 1976 and 1989, which outlawed discrimination in employment on grounds
of religious belief and political opinion, were repealed and their provisions re-enacted, brought
together and added to in the Fair Employment and Treatment (Northern Ireland) Order 1998, which
came into operation on 1 March 1999. The 1998 Order was subsequently amended by the Fair
Employment and Treatment Order (Amendment) Regulations (NI) 2003 to implement the EU
Framework Employment Directive.
"

seafoid

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1824 on: December 12, 2017, 10:09:49 AM »
What sort of changes would nationalists want in a UI? 20 years ago the south was seen as socially conservative. Apart from abortion this seems to have been addressed .
What else needs to be done in Dublin.?


I think the state is far too centralised.
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Rossfan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1825 on: December 12, 2017, 10:58:39 AM »
If you believe Tony they'll want stricter limits on abortion and the abolition of same sex marriage.
The future All Ireland political entity will be a Confederation of two semi autonomous areas - present 26 and 6 Cos.
The terms of the GFA will continue to apply in the 6 Cos e.g Dual Irish and British citizenship (if "Britain"still exists then).
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AQMP

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1826 on: December 13, 2017, 09:22:08 AM »
What sort of changes would nationalists want in a UI? 20 years ago the south was seen as socially conservative. Apart from abortion this seems to have been addressed .
What else needs to be done in Dublin.?


I think the state is far too centralised.

Serious reform of the Guards (and elements of the PSNI)??

Franko

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1827 on: December 13, 2017, 10:43:49 AM »
What sort of changes would nationalists want in a UI? 20 years ago the south was seen as socially conservative. Apart from abortion this seems to have been addressed .
What else needs to be done in Dublin.?


I think the state is far too centralised.

The addition of an element of Belfast control should help with decentralisation.  Although I appreciate that's not doing much for the wesht.

T Fearon

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1828 on: December 18, 2017, 07:29:26 PM »
Don't hold your breath lads.Fianna Fail have now postponed their plans to field candidates in the North in 2019,lest it be perceived as a (wait for it) "Nationalist takeover" amidst the uncertainty over Brexit! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂.

I have heard it all now! Surely this ends the delusion of a United Ireland?

OgraAnDun

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1829 on: December 18, 2017, 07:47:28 PM »
To a certain extent, they’re putting the bigger picture before the party because that is exactly how it would be seen by unionists. As you well know. I’m also doubtful as to how successful they would be up here unless they merged with the DUP.