Author Topic: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.  (Read 84298 times)

Owen Brannigan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1785 on: December 08, 2017, 02:55:31 PM »
Life experiences in N.Ireland across the Catholic community varied in the period up to 1967 just as you would find in most societies.  In terms of discrimination against the Catholic community it is important to realise that it was institutional, i.e. the democratic deficit in N.Ireland was produced by gerrymandering over a long period of time to ensure that the absolute minimum number of Catholic representatives could be returned to Stormont and the district councils.  Within government institutions those at the higher levels were from the Protestant community and ensured that new employees came from their own community, so most civil service and similar jobs were given to Protestants regardless of their merit compared to Catholic applicants.  In businesses, there was segregation of the communities, Protestant firms employed Protestants and Catholic firms employed Catholics.  There were some instances of crossover but Catholics could never attain jobs in Protestant firms at anything other than in menial jobs that Protestants wouldn't do, not dissimilar to today's situation where migrants take the jobs that the locals don't want to do.

The one good thing that came from the Unionist parliament was the 1947 Education Act which provided free and universal education for everyone at secondary level.  This meant that the Catholic population was able to access secondary level education and have the opportunity to reach university education (at that stage only 5% of the population attended third level education).  However, this provision did not mean that everyone could afford to have their children at secondary school.  If Catholic parents had low paid work which was the norm then they needed their children to become earners as soon as possible and to leave school and get a job.  Therefore, the Catholic population remained largely poorly education at secondary level for many years after 1947.  However, some families became determined to provide their children with an education and made major sacrifices to keep their children at school.  This provided an increasing educated Catholic cohort, some managing to get to university education.  Their education did not improve their opportunities of work in government institutions.

The democratic deficit at district council level applied to both Catholic and Protestants because as well as discriminating against catholics the unionist establishment wanted to keep their own people in subjection with governments which were conservative/right wing in political position.  Councils provided votes only to rates payers, so if you didn't own property you couldn't vote in council elections.  However, business owners got multiple votes because they paid high levels of rates.  This led to councils that were business owner supporters and ignoring working classes particularly the Catholics but councils ran public housing and education so Catholics and poor Protestants were discriminated against by councils in housing matters but with Catholics at the bottom of the pile.

Then from 1968 on the Catholic population mobilised in protest, working class Protestants were largely paid off by having access to jobs usually low paid and kept in fear by being told the Catholics were uprising for a united Ireland.  The state reacted badly to being confronted.

However, the McCrory Report in 1970 signalled the end of the institutionalised discrimination by providing all with votes in local government and dismantling the apparatus of the state away from discriminating unionist dominated councils. In 1971 the N.Ireland Housing Executive was formed, taking public housing away from discriminating councils. The Local Government (Boundaries) Act (Northern Ireland) 1971 and the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 replaced the previous system established by the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898. This replaced the 6 county councils and two borough councils with 26 local councils and ended much of the gerrymandering.

So, from 1972, all citizens of N.Ireland had equal rights in housing, education and local government. By 1976, the Fair Employment Act prohibited discrimination in the workplace on the grounds of religion and established a Fair Employment Agency.

So, from the early 70s discrimination had been removed from institutions and democratic bodies but the same people were still in most civil service and local government jobs and catholics had to resort to legal routes to work their way to top in these areas.

Therefore, all talk of discrimination by the state after the early 70s is largely inaccurate, it still existed with some individuals unless challenged using the agencies that had been created by the UK government.  The problem from early 70s lies with the greater segregation and polarisation of the population caused by the on-going violence of the IRA and UVF/UDA.  From early 70s anyone can get a job or a house or an education anywhere but they will not feel comfortable in the segregated society that has formed.  Polarisation of the communities has become much sharper over the last 40 years and whole populations have moved to make new small towns and some people have been moved in the ethnic cleansing (N.Ireland style) that occurred in the 30 year conflict.

Are you having a laugh??

If you read what I have written you will see that the institutions to remove discrimination as provided from the McCrory Report removed the main elements of state which were in place to allow discrimination.  As I have stated the issue of discrimination remaining was down to the people in state organisation and businesses who continued to discriminate and break the law in doing so. 

Up until the NIHE, ELBs, Fair Employment act and the local government act, all from earlier 70s, it was not illegal for state bodies and business to discriminate in the fields of housing, education and employment. 

The safeguards that ensure discrimination on a religious basis as had happened from the beginning of N.Ireland are no longer acceptable or legal in 2017 were in place from early 70s.  That is a fact.  Did discrimination still occur, yes, but it could be contested, beaten and compensated for thanks to the new institutions and parliamentary acts put in place from early 70s.

Does discrimination still occur in 2017, yes it does but by both sides of the community and those affected have the legal right of challenge and recompense thanks to the laws enacted in 1970's and amended on occasions since then to make them broader and more effective.

There is nothing introduced since the early 1970s that has suddenly made discrimination disappear apart from amendments and improvements to the existing legislation.

Owen Brannigan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1786 on: December 08, 2017, 03:02:29 PM »


Therefore, all talk of discrimination by the state after the early 70s is largely inaccurate, it still existed with some individuals unless challenged using the agencies that had been created by the UK government.  The problem from early 70s lies with the greater segregation and polarisation of the population caused by the on-going violence of the IRA and UVF/UDA.  From early 70s anyone can get a job or a house or an education anywhere but they will not feel comfortable in the segregated society that has formed.  Polarisation of the communities has become much sharper over the last 40 years and whole populations have moved to make new small towns and some people have been moved in the ethnic cleansing (N.Ireland style) that occurred in the 30 year conflict.

There are many more. Discrimination was not based solely on civic opportunity and it's false to claim it was. I fully understand that many of these discriminating decisions by the State were in response to the IRA. However, we are discussing the discrimination by the State. The State used the IRA to further discriminate after the end of civic discrimination. It's not true to say the State could not address the IRA without discrimination of the Catholic/Nationalist community.

These things were not individual discrimination. It was policy.

Take a minute to read what I have written. Prior to intervention by UK government after the McCrory Report and the action it took, discrimination was not illegal.  It occurred mostly against Catholics but also against Protestant working class people.  It had nothing to do with the various IRA campaigns.  The one party state looked after its own in terms of employment and opportunity to work in the machinery of government and administration.  Working class Protestants had same restrictions on access to education as Catholics, they lived in housing conditions that were as bad as those for Catholics but they had the advantage of ready employment ahead of any Catholic.  The one party state in N.Ireland looked after the middle and upper classes who looked down on everyone.

Franko

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1787 on: December 08, 2017, 03:04:49 PM »
Life experiences in N.Ireland across the Catholic community varied in the period up to 1967 just as you would find in most societies.  In terms of discrimination against the Catholic community it is important to realise that it was institutional, i.e. the democratic deficit in N.Ireland was produced by gerrymandering over a long period of time to ensure that the absolute minimum number of Catholic representatives could be returned to Stormont and the district councils.  Within government institutions those at the higher levels were from the Protestant community and ensured that new employees came from their own community, so most civil service and similar jobs were given to Protestants regardless of their merit compared to Catholic applicants.  In businesses, there was segregation of the communities, Protestant firms employed Protestants and Catholic firms employed Catholics.  There were some instances of crossover but Catholics could never attain jobs in Protestant firms at anything other than in menial jobs that Protestants wouldn't do, not dissimilar to today's situation where migrants take the jobs that the locals don't want to do.

The one good thing that came from the Unionist parliament was the 1947 Education Act which provided free and universal education for everyone at secondary level.  This meant that the Catholic population was able to access secondary level education and have the opportunity to reach university education (at that stage only 5% of the population attended third level education).  However, this provision did not mean that everyone could afford to have their children at secondary school.  If Catholic parents had low paid work which was the norm then they needed their children to become earners as soon as possible and to leave school and get a job.  Therefore, the Catholic population remained largely poorly education at secondary level for many years after 1947.  However, some families became determined to provide their children with an education and made major sacrifices to keep their children at school.  This provided an increasing educated Catholic cohort, some managing to get to university education.  Their education did not improve their opportunities of work in government institutions.

The democratic deficit at district council level applied to both Catholic and Protestants because as well as discriminating against catholics the unionist establishment wanted to keep their own people in subjection with governments which were conservative/right wing in political position.  Councils provided votes only to rates payers, so if you didn't own property you couldn't vote in council elections.  However, business owners got multiple votes because they paid high levels of rates.  This led to councils that were business owner supporters and ignoring working classes particularly the Catholics but councils ran public housing and education so Catholics and poor Protestants were discriminated against by councils in housing matters but with Catholics at the bottom of the pile.

Then from 1968 on the Catholic population mobilised in protest, working class Protestants were largely paid off by having access to jobs usually low paid and kept in fear by being told the Catholics were uprising for a united Ireland.  The state reacted badly to being confronted.

However, the McCrory Report in 1970 signalled the end of the institutionalised discrimination by providing all with votes in local government and dismantling the apparatus of the state away from discriminating unionist dominated councils. In 1971 the N.Ireland Housing Executive was formed, taking public housing away from discriminating councils. The Local Government (Boundaries) Act (Northern Ireland) 1971 and the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 replaced the previous system established by the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898. This replaced the 6 county councils and two borough councils with 26 local councils and ended much of the gerrymandering.

So, from 1972, all citizens of N.Ireland had equal rights in housing, education and local government. By 1976, the Fair Employment Act prohibited discrimination in the workplace on the grounds of religion and established a Fair Employment Agency.

So, from the early 70s discrimination had been removed from institutions and democratic bodies but the same people were still in most civil service and local government jobs and catholics had to resort to legal routes to work their way to top in these areas.

Therefore, all talk of discrimination by the state after the early 70s is largely inaccurate, it still existed with some individuals unless challenged using the agencies that had been created by the UK government.  The problem from early 70s lies with the greater segregation and polarisation of the population caused by the on-going violence of the IRA and UVF/UDA.  From early 70s anyone can get a job or a house or an education anywhere but they will not feel comfortable in the segregated society that has formed.  Polarisation of the communities has become much sharper over the last 40 years and whole populations have moved to make new small towns and some people have been moved in the ethnic cleansing (N.Ireland style) that occurred in the 30 year conflict.

Are you having a laugh??

If you read what I have written you will see that the institutions to remove discrimination as provided from the McCrory Report removed the main elements of state which were in place to allow discrimination.  As I have stated the issue of discrimination remaining was down to the people in state organisation and businesses who continued to discriminate and break the law in doing so. 

Up until the NIHE, ELBs, Fair Employment act and the local government act, all from earlier 70s, it was not illegal for state bodies and business to discriminate in the fields of housing, education and employment. 

The safeguards that ensure discrimination on a religious basis as had happened from the beginning of N.Ireland are no longer acceptable or legal in 2017 were in place from early 70s.  That is a fact.  Did discrimination still occur, yes, but it could be contested, beaten and compensated for thanks to the new institutions and parliamentary acts put in place from early 70s.

Does discrimination still occur in 2017, yes it does but by both sides of the community and those affected have the legal right of challenge and recompense thanks to the laws enacted in 1970's and amended on occasions since then to make them broader and more effective.

There is nothing introduced since the early 1970s that has suddenly made discrimination disappear apart from amendments and improvements to the existing legislation.

Don't tell me you've been taken in by the "few rotten apples" shite.

**Actually, I'm not going down "how high up did security force collusion go" rabbit hole.  You can probably guess my feelings.

Even if you were silly enough to believe this fairytale, discrimination by the agents of the state is discrimination by the state.  There's no other way to frame it.

There's a fair few victims of state collusion that would contest the bit in bold also.

Owen Brannigan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1788 on: December 08, 2017, 03:16:13 PM »
What about the Catholic Professional classes? They seemed to do alright in the leafy suburbs.I knew of a Senior Catholic Servant back in the day who seemed to do nothing else only try and work out the religious affiliation of each new staff member and boasted he could do this in an hour.There was always Catholic businesses in Portadown town centre.They couldn't have survived without the support of all sections.

Did the people of the Shankhill Road benefit from having a perpetual Unionist government? I think not.Not so long ago there were houses in the loyalist village area of Belfast still with outside toilets.

Grossly exaggerated and not a barrier at all to those who were determined and willing to work to make the most of opportunities.

The Catholic professional classes were a small grouping in every town, those whose families could afford to have them educated but the only professions were medicine and the law.  Catholic teachers were educated in small numbers but most had to go to Scotland or England to be qualified but their pay was very low and they did not form a middle class until well past the beginning of the conflict but they did represent a well educated grouping in society that had not existed before.  Catholic businesses did exist and profited from the segregated society where each supported their own.  Choice of shop was often down to the religion of the owners.

Discrimination after early 1970s is often exaggerated to support a narrative of an oppressed people needing to be saved by the conflict waged by the IRA.  It was still occurring but the safeguards against it were in place and allowed people to challenge discrimination on religious basis and also allowed Catholics to take on high level posts in the new institutions, e.g. Joe Martin, originally from Carrickmore, was appointed head of the Western Education & Library Board and Gerry Kelly held the same position in the SELB, Catholics took prominent posts in the NIHE and began to take posts in local government and in the civil service but change took time as posts in the civil service could only be filled when they became vacant.  Catholic representatives were now present in the 26 councils and were able to effect change and prevent discrimination.  Stormont was gone from 30 March 1972, no longer was N.Ireland a one party state and while rule from UK government was not acceptable it was on the most fair in relation to everyday issues of education, housing and employment thanks to the new laws it had enacted in the wake of Stormont rule.

Owen Brannigan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1789 on: December 08, 2017, 03:30:48 PM »
Life experiences in N.Ireland across the Catholic community varied in the period up to 1967 just as you would find in most societies.  In terms of discrimination against the Catholic community it is important to realise that it was institutional, i.e. the democratic deficit in N.Ireland was produced by gerrymandering over a long period of time to ensure that the absolute minimum number of Catholic representatives could be returned to Stormont and the district councils.  Within government institutions those at the higher levels were from the Protestant community and ensured that new employees came from their own community, so most civil service and similar jobs were given to Protestants regardless of their merit compared to Catholic applicants.  In businesses, there was segregation of the communities, Protestant firms employed Protestants and Catholic firms employed Catholics.  There were some instances of crossover but Catholics could never attain jobs in Protestant firms at anything other than in menial jobs that Protestants wouldn't do, not dissimilar to today's situation where migrants take the jobs that the locals don't want to do.

The one good thing that came from the Unionist parliament was the 1947 Education Act which provided free and universal education for everyone at secondary level.  This meant that the Catholic population was able to access secondary level education and have the opportunity to reach university education (at that stage only 5% of the population attended third level education).  However, this provision did not mean that everyone could afford to have their children at secondary school.  If Catholic parents had low paid work which was the norm then they needed their children to become earners as soon as possible and to leave school and get a job.  Therefore, the Catholic population remained largely poorly education at secondary level for many years after 1947.  However, some families became determined to provide their children with an education and made major sacrifices to keep their children at school.  This provided an increasing educated Catholic cohort, some managing to get to university education.  Their education did not improve their opportunities of work in government institutions.

The democratic deficit at district council level applied to both Catholic and Protestants because as well as discriminating against catholics the unionist establishment wanted to keep their own people in subjection with governments which were conservative/right wing in political position.  Councils provided votes only to rates payers, so if you didn't own property you couldn't vote in council elections.  However, business owners got multiple votes because they paid high levels of rates.  This led to councils that were business owner supporters and ignoring working classes particularly the Catholics but councils ran public housing and education so Catholics and poor Protestants were discriminated against by councils in housing matters but with Catholics at the bottom of the pile.

Then from 1968 on the Catholic population mobilised in protest, working class Protestants were largely paid off by having access to jobs usually low paid and kept in fear by being told the Catholics were uprising for a united Ireland.  The state reacted badly to being confronted.

However, the McCrory Report in 1970 signalled the end of the institutionalised discrimination by providing all with votes in local government and dismantling the apparatus of the state away from discriminating unionist dominated councils. In 1971 the N.Ireland Housing Executive was formed, taking public housing away from discriminating councils. The Local Government (Boundaries) Act (Northern Ireland) 1971 and the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 replaced the previous system established by the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898. This replaced the 6 county councils and two borough councils with 26 local councils and ended much of the gerrymandering.

So, from 1972, all citizens of N.Ireland had equal rights in housing, education and local government. By 1976, the Fair Employment Act prohibited discrimination in the workplace on the grounds of religion and established a Fair Employment Agency.

So, from the early 70s discrimination had been removed from institutions and democratic bodies but the same people were still in most civil service and local government jobs and catholics had to resort to legal routes to work their way to top in these areas.

Therefore, all talk of discrimination by the state after the early 70s is largely inaccurate, it still existed with some individuals unless challenged using the agencies that had been created by the UK government.  The problem from early 70s lies with the greater segregation and polarisation of the population caused by the on-going violence of the IRA and UVF/UDA.  From early 70s anyone can get a job or a house or an education anywhere but they will not feel comfortable in the segregated society that has formed.  Polarisation of the communities has become much sharper over the last 40 years and whole populations have moved to make new small towns and some people have been moved in the ethnic cleansing (N.Ireland style) that occurred in the 30 year conflict.

Are you having a laugh??

If you read what I have written you will see that the institutions to remove discrimination as provided from the McCrory Report removed the main elements of state which were in place to allow discrimination.  As I have stated the issue of discrimination remaining was down to the people in state organisation and businesses who continued to discriminate and break the law in doing so. 

Up until the NIHE, ELBs, Fair Employment act and the local government act, all from earlier 70s, it was not illegal for state bodies and business to discriminate in the fields of housing, education and employment. 

The safeguards that ensure discrimination on a religious basis as had happened from the beginning of N.Ireland are no longer acceptable or legal in 2017 were in place from early 70s.  That is a fact.  Did discrimination still occur, yes, but it could be contested, beaten and compensated for thanks to the new institutions and parliamentary acts put in place from early 70s.

Does discrimination still occur in 2017, yes it does but by both sides of the community and those affected have the legal right of challenge and recompense thanks to the laws enacted in 1970's and amended on occasions since then to make them broader and more effective.

There is nothing introduced since the early 1970s that has suddenly made discrimination disappear apart from amendments and improvements to the existing legislation.

Don't tell me you've been taken in by the "few rotten apples" shite.

There were many rotten apples in the administration of N.Ireland after the new laws and institutions and not least in the RUC but in the fields of education, housing and employment, every citizen had the right to challenge discrimination and seek recompense.

Discrimination did not end, as I have stated it continues today but both sides are guilty on many of the occasions on which is occurs on the basis of religion.  In 2017, Protestants find their paths blocked as often as Catholics when it comes to employment.

I am not saying that collusion did not occur, of course it did and innocent people were killed and injured as a result but that occurred after the early 1970s when it is now being re-written by some that the IRA was fighting the state on behalf of an oppressed and discriminated population when in fact all safeguards to prevent the behaviour of the state from 1920 until 1972 in relation to social issues were firmly in place.

Franko

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1790 on: December 08, 2017, 03:51:09 PM »
Life experiences in N.Ireland across the Catholic community varied in the period up to 1967 just as you would find in most societies.  In terms of discrimination against the Catholic community it is important to realise that it was institutional, i.e. the democratic deficit in N.Ireland was produced by gerrymandering over a long period of time to ensure that the absolute minimum number of Catholic representatives could be returned to Stormont and the district councils.  Within government institutions those at the higher levels were from the Protestant community and ensured that new employees came from their own community, so most civil service and similar jobs were given to Protestants regardless of their merit compared to Catholic applicants.  In businesses, there was segregation of the communities, Protestant firms employed Protestants and Catholic firms employed Catholics.  There were some instances of crossover but Catholics could never attain jobs in Protestant firms at anything other than in menial jobs that Protestants wouldn't do, not dissimilar to today's situation where migrants take the jobs that the locals don't want to do.

The one good thing that came from the Unionist parliament was the 1947 Education Act which provided free and universal education for everyone at secondary level.  This meant that the Catholic population was able to access secondary level education and have the opportunity to reach university education (at that stage only 5% of the population attended third level education).  However, this provision did not mean that everyone could afford to have their children at secondary school.  If Catholic parents had low paid work which was the norm then they needed their children to become earners as soon as possible and to leave school and get a job.  Therefore, the Catholic population remained largely poorly education at secondary level for many years after 1947.  However, some families became determined to provide their children with an education and made major sacrifices to keep their children at school.  This provided an increasing educated Catholic cohort, some managing to get to university education.  Their education did not improve their opportunities of work in government institutions.

The democratic deficit at district council level applied to both Catholic and Protestants because as well as discriminating against catholics the unionist establishment wanted to keep their own people in subjection with governments which were conservative/right wing in political position.  Councils provided votes only to rates payers, so if you didn't own property you couldn't vote in council elections.  However, business owners got multiple votes because they paid high levels of rates.  This led to councils that were business owner supporters and ignoring working classes particularly the Catholics but councils ran public housing and education so Catholics and poor Protestants were discriminated against by councils in housing matters but with Catholics at the bottom of the pile.

Then from 1968 on the Catholic population mobilised in protest, working class Protestants were largely paid off by having access to jobs usually low paid and kept in fear by being told the Catholics were uprising for a united Ireland.  The state reacted badly to being confronted.

However, the McCrory Report in 1970 signalled the end of the institutionalised discrimination by providing all with votes in local government and dismantling the apparatus of the state away from discriminating unionist dominated councils. In 1971 the N.Ireland Housing Executive was formed, taking public housing away from discriminating councils. The Local Government (Boundaries) Act (Northern Ireland) 1971 and the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 replaced the previous system established by the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898. This replaced the 6 county councils and two borough councils with 26 local councils and ended much of the gerrymandering.

So, from 1972, all citizens of N.Ireland had equal rights in housing, education and local government. By 1976, the Fair Employment Act prohibited discrimination in the workplace on the grounds of religion and established a Fair Employment Agency.

So, from the early 70s discrimination had been removed from institutions and democratic bodies but the same people were still in most civil service and local government jobs and catholics had to resort to legal routes to work their way to top in these areas.

Therefore, all talk of discrimination by the state after the early 70s is largely inaccurate, it still existed with some individuals unless challenged using the agencies that had been created by the UK government.  The problem from early 70s lies with the greater segregation and polarisation of the population caused by the on-going violence of the IRA and UVF/UDA.  From early 70s anyone can get a job or a house or an education anywhere but they will not feel comfortable in the segregated society that has formed.  Polarisation of the communities has become much sharper over the last 40 years and whole populations have moved to make new small towns and some people have been moved in the ethnic cleansing (N.Ireland style) that occurred in the 30 year conflict.

Are you having a laugh??

If you read what I have written you will see that the institutions to remove discrimination as provided from the McCrory Report removed the main elements of state which were in place to allow discrimination.  As I have stated the issue of discrimination remaining was down to the people in state organisation and businesses who continued to discriminate and break the law in doing so. 

Up until the NIHE, ELBs, Fair Employment act and the local government act, all from earlier 70s, it was not illegal for state bodies and business to discriminate in the fields of housing, education and employment. 

The safeguards that ensure discrimination on a religious basis as had happened from the beginning of N.Ireland are no longer acceptable or legal in 2017 were in place from early 70s.  That is a fact.  Did discrimination still occur, yes, but it could be contested, beaten and compensated for thanks to the new institutions and parliamentary acts put in place from early 70s.

Does discrimination still occur in 2017, yes it does but by both sides of the community and those affected have the legal right of challenge and recompense thanks to the laws enacted in 1970's and amended on occasions since then to make them broader and more effective.

There is nothing introduced since the early 1970s that has suddenly made discrimination disappear apart from amendments and improvements to the existing legislation.

Don't tell me you've been taken in by the "few rotten apples" shite.

There were many rotten apples in the administration of N.Ireland after the new laws and institutions and not least in the RUC but in the fields of education, housing and employment, every citizen had the right to challenge discrimination and seek recompense.

Discrimination did not end, as I have stated it continues today but both sides are guilty on many of the occasions on which is occurs on the basis of religion.  In 2017, Protestants find their paths blocked as often as Catholics when it comes to employment.

I am not saying that collusion did not occur, of course it did and innocent people were killed and injured as a result but that occurred after the early 1970s when it is now being re-written by some that the IRA was fighting the state on behalf of an oppressed and discriminated population when in fact all safeguards to prevent the behaviour of the state from 1920 until 1972 in relation to social issues were firmly in place.

It doesn't matter how many safeguards were written in the statute book.  It's TOTALLY irrelevant when the ultimate agents responsible for ensuring these safeguards were upheld were actively not enforcing them.

Simply put, discrimination was rife up until the late 90's.  The fact that they "said" they were going to stop in the 70's is neither here nor there.

Owen Brannigan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1791 on: December 08, 2017, 05:07:20 PM »
Life experiences in N.Ireland across the Catholic community varied in the period up to 1967 just as you would find in most societies.  In terms of discrimination against the Catholic community it is important to realise that it was institutional, i.e. the democratic deficit in N.Ireland was produced by gerrymandering over a long period of time to ensure that the absolute minimum number of Catholic representatives could be returned to Stormont and the district councils.  Within government institutions those at the higher levels were from the Protestant community and ensured that new employees came from their own community, so most civil service and similar jobs were given to Protestants regardless of their merit compared to Catholic applicants.  In businesses, there was segregation of the communities, Protestant firms employed Protestants and Catholic firms employed Catholics.  There were some instances of crossover but Catholics could never attain jobs in Protestant firms at anything other than in menial jobs that Protestants wouldn't do, not dissimilar to today's situation where migrants take the jobs that the locals don't want to do.

The one good thing that came from the Unionist parliament was the 1947 Education Act which provided free and universal education for everyone at secondary level.  This meant that the Catholic population was able to access secondary level education and have the opportunity to reach university education (at that stage only 5% of the population attended third level education).  However, this provision did not mean that everyone could afford to have their children at secondary school.  If Catholic parents had low paid work which was the norm then they needed their children to become earners as soon as possible and to leave school and get a job.  Therefore, the Catholic population remained largely poorly education at secondary level for many years after 1947.  However, some families became determined to provide their children with an education and made major sacrifices to keep their children at school.  This provided an increasing educated Catholic cohort, some managing to get to university education.  Their education did not improve their opportunities of work in government institutions.

The democratic deficit at district council level applied to both Catholic and Protestants because as well as discriminating against catholics the unionist establishment wanted to keep their own people in subjection with governments which were conservative/right wing in political position.  Councils provided votes only to rates payers, so if you didn't own property you couldn't vote in council elections.  However, business owners got multiple votes because they paid high levels of rates.  This led to councils that were business owner supporters and ignoring working classes particularly the Catholics but councils ran public housing and education so Catholics and poor Protestants were discriminated against by councils in housing matters but with Catholics at the bottom of the pile.

Then from 1968 on the Catholic population mobilised in protest, working class Protestants were largely paid off by having access to jobs usually low paid and kept in fear by being told the Catholics were uprising for a united Ireland.  The state reacted badly to being confronted.

However, the McCrory Report in 1970 signalled the end of the institutionalised discrimination by providing all with votes in local government and dismantling the apparatus of the state away from discriminating unionist dominated councils. In 1971 the N.Ireland Housing Executive was formed, taking public housing away from discriminating councils. The Local Government (Boundaries) Act (Northern Ireland) 1971 and the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 replaced the previous system established by the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898. This replaced the 6 county councils and two borough councils with 26 local councils and ended much of the gerrymandering.

So, from 1972, all citizens of N.Ireland had equal rights in housing, education and local government. By 1976, the Fair Employment Act prohibited discrimination in the workplace on the grounds of religion and established a Fair Employment Agency.

So, from the early 70s discrimination had been removed from institutions and democratic bodies but the same people were still in most civil service and local government jobs and catholics had to resort to legal routes to work their way to top in these areas.

Therefore, all talk of discrimination by the state after the early 70s is largely inaccurate, it still existed with some individuals unless challenged using the agencies that had been created by the UK government.  The problem from early 70s lies with the greater segregation and polarisation of the population caused by the on-going violence of the IRA and UVF/UDA.  From early 70s anyone can get a job or a house or an education anywhere but they will not feel comfortable in the segregated society that has formed.  Polarisation of the communities has become much sharper over the last 40 years and whole populations have moved to make new small towns and some people have been moved in the ethnic cleansing (N.Ireland style) that occurred in the 30 year conflict.

Are you having a laugh??

If you read what I have written you will see that the institutions to remove discrimination as provided from the McCrory Report removed the main elements of state which were in place to allow discrimination.  As I have stated the issue of discrimination remaining was down to the people in state organisation and businesses who continued to discriminate and break the law in doing so. 

Up until the NIHE, ELBs, Fair Employment act and the local government act, all from earlier 70s, it was not illegal for state bodies and business to discriminate in the fields of housing, education and employment. 

The safeguards that ensure discrimination on a religious basis as had happened from the beginning of N.Ireland are no longer acceptable or legal in 2017 were in place from early 70s.  That is a fact.  Did discrimination still occur, yes, but it could be contested, beaten and compensated for thanks to the new institutions and parliamentary acts put in place from early 70s.

Does discrimination still occur in 2017, yes it does but by both sides of the community and those affected have the legal right of challenge and recompense thanks to the laws enacted in 1970's and amended on occasions since then to make them broader and more effective.

There is nothing introduced since the early 1970s that has suddenly made discrimination disappear apart from amendments and improvements to the existing legislation.

Don't tell me you've been taken in by the "few rotten apples" shite.

There were many rotten apples in the administration of N.Ireland after the new laws and institutions and not least in the RUC but in the fields of education, housing and employment, every citizen had the right to challenge discrimination and seek recompense.

Discrimination did not end, as I have stated it continues today but both sides are guilty on many of the occasions on which is occurs on the basis of religion.  In 2017, Protestants find their paths blocked as often as Catholics when it comes to employment.

I am not saying that collusion did not occur, of course it did and innocent people were killed and injured as a result but that occurred after the early 1970s when it is now being re-written by some that the IRA was fighting the state on behalf of an oppressed and discriminated population when in fact all safeguards to prevent the behaviour of the state from 1920 until 1972 in relation to social issues were firmly in place.

It doesn't matter how many safeguards were written in the statute book.  It's TOTALLY irrelevant when the ultimate agents responsible for ensuring these safeguards were upheld were actively not enforcing them.

Simply put, discrimination was rife up until the late 90's.  The fact that they "said" they were going to stop in the 70's is neither here nor there.

That's nonsense, the laws were in place and legal aid was available, unions were geared up and ready to go to tribunals on behalf of their members.  No one was required to uphold the safeguards, employment tribunals consisted of an independent chair usually a legal expert, a person from the union side and a person from an employers background.  No lawyers were or are required at tribunals so any one could represent themselves or by their union.  Manners were put on employers from the moment the Fair Employment legislation was put on the books.  There was no one to stand in the way of employment laws or to put obstacles in the way of anyone wishing to use them to deal with discrimination in employment.  So, you are wrong. Some of the best employment law firms in N.Ireland cut their teeth representing people discriminated against from the implementation of the fair Employment Act.

The NIHE removed discrimination from housing by introducing transparent points system for allocation of houses, no longer the prerogative of politicians or unionist biased administrators.  They may not have got it right every time but with the local government act, nationalist councillors had access to the decision making process.  The polarisation of the population helped in many ways as Catholic only wanted to live among other Catholics so they were no longer competing for the same houses with Protestants and losing like the famous case in Caledon highlighting the discrimination rife in the old county council system.  The issue with NIHE came when it bought land to build more houses and it wasn't always possible to get the same amount of land in some Catholic and Protestant areas because West Belfast was so hemmed in but relieved when NIHE was allowed to develop Poleglass whereas East Belfast had more room to expand into North Down.  NIHE was also populated with a fair distribution of Catholic and Protestant administrators even to the highest levels. 

In education, the ELBs brought in maintained schools status for Catholic schools but had to persuade the Catholic Church to work with them, this provided 100% funding for all schools by the beginning of 1980s with the delay due to the Church opposition not some bogey men as you would prefer.  ELBs were managed by administrators whose religion rejected their catchment area and many Catholics led them and had positions of authority in them from the beginning as they were new institutions.

The introduction of the anti discrimination laws meant that everyone had legal protection from discrimination in housing, education and employment.  Armed with a solicitor and legal aid or a union representative no one had to suffer from discrimination in any of these social areas.

As I said above discrimination didn't end with new laws but it allowed the individual to challenge it with the law at his/her back.  What did increase in the 1990s was discrimination of the Protestant population by Catholic firms or Catholics in positions in businesses or other organisation or local government or education.

Quote from: Franko
The fact that they "said" they were going to stop in the 70's is neither here nor there.

No one "said" they were going to stop in the 70's, laws were put on the statute book and Catholics were able to challenge discrimination in housing, education or employment knowing that the law was on their side and they had their own solicitors and unions to back them up.

vallankumous

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1792 on: December 09, 2017, 07:30:13 AM »


If you read what I have written you will see that the institutions to remove discrimination as provided from the McCrory Report removed the main elements of state which were in place to allow discrimination.  As I have stated the issue of discrimination remaining was down to the people in state organisation and businesses who continued to discriminate and break the law in doing so. 

Up until the NIHE, ELBs, Fair Employment act and the local government act, all from earlier 70s, it was not illegal for state bodies and business to discriminate in the fields of housing, education and employment. 

The safeguards that ensure discrimination on a religious basis as had happened from the beginning of N.Ireland are no longer acceptable or legal in 2017 were in place from early 70s.  That is a fact.  Did discrimination still occur, yes, but it could be contested, beaten and compensated for thanks to the new institutions and parliamentary acts put in place from early 70s.

Does discrimination still occur in 2017, yes it does but by both sides of the community and those affected have the legal right of challenge and recompense thanks to the laws enacted in 1970's and amended on occasions since then to make them broader and more effective.

There is nothing introduced since the early 1970s that has suddenly made discrimination disappear apart from amendments and improvements to the existing legislation.

I agree 100% that there was discrimination against sections of the Protestant community by the State. The State discriminated against the poor in general, unfortunately the protestant victims were given a false enemy to blame. Much like now where the poorer working class are given the immigrants to blame.
I've always maintained this to be a social conflict but the strategy of the State to paint it as a religious conflict has been so successful we are still paying that price.

Owen Brannigan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1793 on: December 09, 2017, 10:58:14 AM »


If you read what I have written you will see that the institutions to remove discrimination as provided from the McCrory Report removed the main elements of state which were in place to allow discrimination.  As I have stated the issue of discrimination remaining was down to the people in state organisation and businesses who continued to discriminate and break the law in doing so. 

Up until the NIHE, ELBs, Fair Employment act and the local government act, all from earlier 70s, it was not illegal for state bodies and business to discriminate in the fields of housing, education and employment. 

The safeguards that ensure discrimination on a religious basis as had happened from the beginning of N.Ireland are no longer acceptable or legal in 2017 were in place from early 70s.  That is a fact.  Did discrimination still occur, yes, but it could be contested, beaten and compensated for thanks to the new institutions and parliamentary acts put in place from early 70s.

Does discrimination still occur in 2017, yes it does but by both sides of the community and those affected have the legal right of challenge and recompense thanks to the laws enacted in 1970's and amended on occasions since then to make them broader and more effective.

There is nothing introduced since the early 1970s that has suddenly made discrimination disappear apart from amendments and improvements to the existing legislation.

I agree 100% that there was discrimination against sections of the Protestant community by the State. The State discriminated against the poor in general, unfortunately the protestant victims were given a false enemy to blame. Much like now where the poorer working class are given the immigrants to blame.
I've always maintained this to be a social conflict but the strategy of the State to paint it as a religious conflict has been so successful we are still paying that price.

There continues to be discrimination and abuse of authority/power in 2017 in relation to religion of job candidates by both communities where they give preference to 'their own' ahead of merit, often used an unofficial tie-breaker.  Thanks goodness for the law.

We are a bigoted society, the first thought by too many of us is whether an individual is a Protestant or Catholic with Catholic good and Protestant bad or vice versa or how often do you hear, he/she is not bad for a Protestant.

The laws instituted in the early 70s put a lie to the freedom fighting IRA from early 70s onwards and a lie to the narrative being lured out to younger people that Catholics only had one route to the freedom already available to them and given by UK laws in N.Ireland and new organisations manned equally by Catholics and Protestants. 

The real fight that the IRA had was against the British Army but it became involved in a sectarian conflict against UDA/UVF whose innate hatred of Catholics was used in many instances by the UK government in a proxy war against the IRA.  No different than all of the proxy wars fought by governments of many countries through similar hate driven organisations willing to kill for a cause.

Just check out the individuals being appointed to the multitude of quangos we still have in N.Ireland despite rules being in place, the Executive Minister has final say in all such appointments. None of these memberships is unpaid, most are at the going rate of 300 per day.  The new discrimination over the last 10 years is a political patronage and the development of special advisers which will be split wide open as the RHI inquiry proceeds and we see how SpAds are recruited and the power they weald as unelected people.


Rossfan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1794 on: December 09, 2017, 11:05:46 AM »
So it's back to direct rule from Westminster till we get an All Ireland outcome??
2017 Double Connacht Champions

vallankumous

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1795 on: December 09, 2017, 11:13:28 AM »

There continues to be discrimination and abuse of authority/power in 2017 in relation to religion of job candidates by both communities where they give preference to 'their own' ahead of merit, often used an unofficial tie-breaker.  Thanks goodness for the law.

Are you talking about the private sector where the self employed employ from within their community? If so then that a natural state replicated all over the world. I am be willing to accept that.

Quote
We are a bigoted society, the first thought by too many of us is whether an individual is a Protestant or Catholic with Catholic good and Protestant bad or vice versa or how often do you hear, he/she is not bad for a Protestant.

Speak for yourself. I never hear that said.

Quote
The laws instituted in the early 70s put a lie to the freedom fighting IRA from early 70s onwards and a lie to the narrative being lured out to younger people that Catholics only had one route to the freedom already available to them and given by UK laws in N.Ireland and new organisations manned equally by Catholics and Protestants.
 

My points earlier regarding security policy in Ireland (plus your next point below) have addressed this.

Quote
The real fight that the IRA had was against the British Army but it became involved in a sectarian conflict against UDA/UVF whose innate hatred of Catholics was used in many instances by the UK government in a proxy war against the IRA.  No different than all of the proxy wars fought by governments of many countries through similar hate driven organisations willing to kill for a cause.

This was by design through British policy. The British Army could not be seen to be fighting a war within their own borders so they controlled the loyalists to provide the excuse of peace makers in a religious conflict. Sadly, they were all too successful and the community began to believe it. I have never and will never believe it was a sectarian conflict.


Quote
Just check out the individuals being appointed to the multitude of quangos we still have in N.Ireland despite rules being in place, the Executive Minister has final say in all such appointments. None of these memberships is unpaid, most are at the going rate of 300 per day.  The new discrimination over the last 10 years is a political patronage and the development of special advisers which will be split wide open as the RHI inquiry proceeds and we see how SpAds are recruited and the power they weald as unelected people.

This is the normalization we craved for. That does not excuse it nor does it mean it should not be dealt with through the law, however, it is standard politics.
From the White House to Sligo County Council, this is common practice.

vallankumous

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1796 on: December 09, 2017, 11:14:12 AM »
So it's back to direct rule from Westminster till we get an All Ireland outcome??

I hope not.

Applesisapples

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1797 on: December 09, 2017, 03:57:53 PM »
Branching off a bit here, but with Fair Employment introduced which enabled more Catholics to get certain jobs. Now that's in place, has even those Catholics been forced down the list and LBGT's taken priority for jobs? Just a thought.

A terrible, regressive thought that ignores the very basic laws of recruitment. Do you think a gay person has their sexuality tattooed on their forehead or something?

If you're going to try to vaguely target a minority group at least spell it right.

It's an acronym. You cant "spell" an acronym.

Well, if a gay thought by declaring they were gay on a form (which I presume is an option these days), they might declare it if they thought it would increase their chances.
You are an offensive moron.

BennyCake

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1798 on: December 09, 2017, 05:01:38 PM »
Branching off a bit here, but with Fair Employment introduced which enabled more Catholics to get certain jobs. Now that's in place, has even those Catholics been forced down the list and LBGT's taken priority for jobs? Just a thought.

A terrible, regressive thought that ignores the very basic laws of recruitment. Do you think a gay person has their sexuality tattooed on their forehead or something?

If you're going to try to vaguely target a minority group at least spell it right.

It's an acronym. You cant "spell" an acronym.

Well, if a gay thought by declaring they were gay on a form (which I presume is an option these days), they might declare it if they thought it would increase their chances.
You are an offensive moron.

What's offensive about that?

Syferus

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #1799 on: December 09, 2017, 05:28:35 PM »
Branching off a bit here, but with Fair Employment introduced which enabled more Catholics to get certain jobs. Now that's in place, has even those Catholics been forced down the list and LBGT's taken priority for jobs? Just a thought.

A terrible, regressive thought that ignores the very basic laws of recruitment. Do you think a gay person has their sexuality tattooed on their forehead or something?

If you're going to try to vaguely target a minority group at least spell it right.

It's an acronym. You cant "spell" an acronym.

Well, if a gay thought by declaring they were gay on a form (which I presume is an option these days), they might declare it if they thought it would increase their chances.
You are an offensive moron.

+1