The Black Card = Blanket Defence

[blewuporstuffed]

Oh, and i definatly think there is alot of truth in the OP.

[AZOffaly]

I think the one thing that is abundantly clear is that teams are more than happy to take a black card in the last few minutes of a game if they're defending a lead.

Exactly, it didnt stop both Kerry & Mayo doing it at the weekend when trying to defend a lead.
Kerry also got away with 2 other quite clear 'black card offences' during the game.
As was my main issue with the rule at the time, its the implentation thats is the issue, and when it comes down to it, the rule still doesnt adress the most cynical of fouls ( the dragging down of the man at the end of a game when defending a lead.

See I don't think that *is* the most cynical of fouls. I think the insidious fouling in the forwards all throughout the game, all in the name of killing momentum, was the most cynical and the most 'coached' aspect of cynical fouling, and that has been largely eradicated by the black card in my view.

Brolly did the rule a disservice by going mental on Sean Cavanagh, because it made people focus on that sort of foul when I think that sort of thing was just an easy video to show, and wasn't actually the problem the black card was most worried about.

[BennyHarp]

I think the one thing that is abundantly clear is that teams are more than happy to take a black card in the last few minutes of a game if they're defending a lead.

Exactly, it didnt stop both Kerry & Mayo doing it at the weekend when trying to defend a lead.
Kerry also got away with 2 other quite clear 'black card offences' during the game.
As was my main issue with the rule at the time, its the implentation thats is the issue, and when it comes down to it, the rule still doesnt adress the most cynical of fouls ( the dragging down of the man at the end of a game when defending a lead.

If we must persist with the black card, then, if received in the last 10 minutes, no replacement should be allowed.

[AZOffaly]

Or maybe start suspending people for getting them? If you get two black cards you get a one game ban, something like that? Of course then we need good refs, which was one of the main issues anyway!

[blewuporstuffed]

I think the one thing that is abundantly clear is that teams are more than happy to take a black card in the last few minutes of a game if they're defending a lead.

Exactly, it didnt stop both Kerry & Mayo doing it at the weekend when trying to defend a lead.
Kerry also got away with 2 other quite clear 'black card offences' during the game.
As was my main issue with the rule at the time, its the implentation thats is the issue, and when it comes down to it, the rule still doesnt adress the most cynical of fouls ( the dragging down of the man at the end of a game when defending a lead.

See I don't think that *is* the most cynical of fouls. I think the insidious fouling in the forwards all throughout the game, all in the name of killing momentum, was the most cynical and the most 'coached' aspect of cynical fouling, and that has been largely eradicated by the black card in my view.

Brolly did the rule a disservice by going mental on Sean Cavanagh, because it made people focus on that sort of foul when I think that sort of thing was just an easy video to show, and wasn't actually the problem the black card was most worried about.

As someone who was very opposed to it initially, I will say that it has drastically reduced the number of 'body check' type fouls which is certainly a good thing. (although how mcquillan missed one of the most obvious ones i have ever seen on sunday, i will never know)
The problem is i suppose, the nature of the these fouls are that they are off the ball, and therefore can be difficult for the referee to spot alot of teh time.
I personally would have prefereed that referees where encouraged to use the yellow card for these type of fouls (something they werent doing) and the linesmen and umpires given more scope to draw the referees attention to the off the ball ones, so that the ref could go back and issue the yellow.I think this would have had the same effect as the black card, without the inconsistancy of what is a yellow and what is a black.
The arguement against that was that a yellow wasnt enough of a deterant, but if it was implemented consistantly and for the ones the ref didnt spot himself, i think it most definatly would have been.The black card is still no more deterent for the end of game drag down foul than a yellow would have been

[Johnnybegood]

I think the one thing that is abundantly clear is that teams are more than happy to take a black card in the last few minutes of a game if they're defending a lead.

Exactly, it didnt stop both Kerry & Mayo doing it at the weekend when trying to defend a lead.
Kerry also got away with 2 other quite clear 'black card offences' during the game.
As was my main issue with the rule at the time, its the implentation thats is the issue, and when it comes down to it, the rule still doesnt adress the most cynical of fouls ( the dragging down of the man at the end of a game when defending a lead.

If we must persist with the black card, then, if received in the last 10 minutes, no replacement should be allowed.

+1

[Zulu]

I think the one thing that is abundantly clear is that teams are more than happy to take a black card in the last few minutes of a game if they're defending a lead.

Exactly, it didnt stop both Kerry & Mayo doing it at the weekend when trying to defend a lead.
Kerry also got away with 2 other quite clear 'black card offences' during the game.
As was my main issue with the rule at the time, its the implentation thats is the issue, and when it comes down to it, the rule still doesnt adress the most cynical of fouls ( the dragging down of the man at the end of a game when defending a lead.

See I don't think that *is* the most cynical of fouls. I think the insidious fouling in the forwards all throughout the game, all in the name of killing momentum, was the most cynical and the most 'coached' aspect of cynical fouling, and that has been largely eradicated by the black card in my view.

Brolly did the rule a disservice by going mental on Sean Cavanagh, because it made people focus on that sort of foul when I think that sort of thing was just an easy video to show, and wasn't actually the problem the black card was most worried about.

As someone who was very opposed to it initially, I will say that it has drastically reduced the number of 'body check' type fouls which is certainly a good thing. (although how mcquillan missed one of the most obvious ones i have ever seen on sunday, i will never know)
The problem is i suppose, the nature of the these fouls are that they are off the ball, and therefore can be difficult for the referee to spot alot of teh time.
I personally would have prefereed that referees where encouraged to use the yellow card for these type of fouls (something they werent doing) and the linesmen and umpires given more scope to draw the referees attention to the off the ball ones, so that the ref could go back and issue the yellow.I think this would have had the same effect as the black card, without the inconsistancy of what is a yellow and what is a black.
The arguement against that was that a yellow wasnt enough of a deterant, but if it was implemented consistantly and for the ones the ref didnt spot himself, i think it most definatly would have been.The black card is still no more deterent for the end of game drag down foul than a yellow would have been

As AZ points out that wasn't really the type of foul it was brought in to address though. Nothing will deter lads from fouling in the last few minutes under certain circumstances so I don't think we should be overly concerned with that. Of course it would be great to have something that would deter lads even in the last few minutes but I don't think there is an easy fix to that one. The black card has done a good job in what it was designed to address IMO.

[Johnnybegood]

The tackle itself can be much more robust in the referees eyes when opposing players are facing each other whereas when the ball is turned over and the attacking team is suddenly chasing a player the slightest hand on the back while putting a hand in is always blown as a free. Players playing the blanket know this and hit the ground with the slightest of contact to win the scorable free.
A ref in each half a possibility?

[Zulu]

Jaysus Johnny we can't get one man to be consistent what hope would we with too? Imagine the post match analysis if one ref was whistle happy and the other leaving a lot more go and lads were pointing out that a free one end of the pitch wasn't at the other?

[Johnnybegood]

Jaysus Johnny we can't get one man to be consistent what hope would we with too? Imagine the post match analysis if one ref was whistle happy and the other leaving a lot more go and lads were pointing out that a free one end of the pitch wasn't at the other?

works well in Aussie rules. The advantage being that the second red can see the ball and therefor can also see if it's been tackled correctly or not. 2 refs would be communicating with one another.

[Johnnybegood]

Another minor point, recently we've had a campaign of 'give respect get respect' what about a fair play campaign to try a culture change within the sport! Teach kids to play fair!

[Zulu]

Agree, I try to be very strict on the tackle with kids and we use a rule in many of our blitzes where any show of disrespect to a ref or their decision automatically results in a 13m free in front of the posts. I think it would be very easy to eradicate that stuff from our game if we really enforced the fact you can't say anything to the ref or throw a huff at their decisions at underage level.

[Johnnybegood]

Agree, I try to be very strict on the tackle with kids and we use a rule in many of our blitzes where any show of disrespect to a ref or their decision automatically results in a 13m free in front of the posts. I think it would be very easy to eradicate that stuff from our game if we really enforced the fact you can't say anything to the ref or throw a huff at their decisions at underage level.

thats Gud to hear! What really gets my back up is mentors on the sideline trying to bully a ref who as you know would also be in his/her teens all on the name of their own glory!

[Esmarelda]

We currently have seven officials at all inter-county and senior club championship games. We need to allow the six, other than the referee to take a greater part in the game.

As it stands, what exactly are the linesmen allowed to do? Call a line ball and tell the referee about off the ball incidents? Similarly the umpires can call a score or point out an off the ball incident.

Whatever about the umpires, who aren't necessarily qualified officials, surely the linesmen could act as some sort of refs and all of a sudden you have three people officiating.

[Bord na Mona man]

I think the one thing that is abundantly clear is that teams are more than happy to take a black card in the last few minutes of a game if they're defending a lead.

Exactly, it didnt stop both Kerry & Mayo doing it at the weekend when trying to defend a lead.
Kerry also got away with 2 other quite clear 'black card offences' during the game.
As was my main issue with the rule at the time, its the implentation thats is the issue, and when it comes down to it, the rule still doesnt adress the most cynical of fouls ( the dragging down of the man at the end of a game when defending a lead.

See I don't think that *is* the most cynical of fouls. I think the insidious fouling in the forwards all throughout the game, all in the name of killing momentum, was the most cynical and the most 'coached' aspect of cynical fouling, and that has been largely eradicated by the black card in my view.

Brolly did the rule a disservice by going mental on Sean Cavanagh, because it made people focus on that sort of foul when I think that sort of thing was just an easy video to show, and wasn't actually the problem the black card was most worried about.

As someone who was very opposed to it initially, I will say that it has drastically reduced the number of 'body check' type fouls which is certainly a good thing. (although how mcquillan missed one of the most obvious ones i have ever seen on sunday, i will never know)
The problem is i suppose, the nature of the these fouls are that they are off the ball, and therefore can be difficult for the referee to spot alot of teh time.
I personally would have prefereed that referees where encouraged to use the yellow card for these type of fouls (something they werent doing) and the linesmen and umpires given more scope to draw the referees attention to the off the ball ones, so that the ref could go back and issue the yellow.I think this would have had the same effect as the black card, without the inconsistancy of what is a yellow and what is a black.
The arguement against that was that a yellow wasnt enough of a deterant, but if it was implemented consistantly and for the ones the ref didnt spot himself, i think it most definatly would have been.The black card is still no more deterent for the end of game drag down foul than a yellow would have been

As AZ points out that wasn't really the type of foul it was brought in to address though. Nothing will deter lads from fouling in the last few minutes under certain circumstances so I don't think we should be overly concerned with that. Of course it would be great to have something that would deter lads even in the last few minutes but I don't think there is an easy fix to that one. The black card has done a good job in what it was designed to address IMO.

An automatic 13 metre free in front of the posts will cut out such fouls. If the player is hauling someone down to prevent a promising attack developing, then the punishment should on the scoreboard rather than with card colours.
In the cases where the drag down prevented a clear goal chance, then the ref should have the power to award the penalty. We need to trust refs to make the interpretation.
The fairest punishment for Sean Cavanagh dragging down Conor McManus should have been a penalty to Monaghan and not cards, fines, jailings, lashings etc.