Prior to the black card we had just a few teams playing the blanket defence.
It could also be argued that the Tyrone and Donegal styles prior to the black card were not the out and out extreme blankets that we are seeing lately.
It strikes me that the black card rule change has unintentionally added to, or even fully caused the blanket defence tactic to go nationwide and this tactic is used at almost every level in our game.
To test this logic we have to go back to before the black card was introduced. It is clear that defenders had much greater scope in the tackle. They could tackle without the fear or burden of the black card. There is no doubt that as a last resort they could also deliberately and cynically drag down an opponent and concede a 1 point free. A 1 point concession and a telling off from his manager was probably enough punishment to fit the crime rather than the rest of the day in the dugout.
This form of 'last resort' defending is no longer possible and therefore the attacker, safe in the knowledge that the rules are weighed more in his favour, will take on his opponent and, if good enough, get a free run on goals that will result in a 1 v 1 with the goalie or an overlap with his colleague. This form of attack was made easier over the last 10 years as attackers also became aware that the overcarrying rule was rarely enforced and the speedy forwards nearly always got away with 2 to 3 extra steps.
Therefore the balance in the rules in favour of the attacker completely outweighs the rules for the defender.
The only way to stop something in a game where the rules are so imbalanced is to over defend. Thus a secondary form of defence must be in place and a team that risks not doing this will only get caught by the rules, which favour the faster and more skillful attacking teams.
IMO the unintended consequence of the black card rule change is a greater use of the blanket defence tactic. Ironically a rule that was supposed to improve our game is quickly leading to its destruction.
It will be difficult to fix this problem but I'm sure the GAA will get another visionary to come up with a report to solve the problem.
They aren't related.
QuoteThey aren't related.
Thanks for that. You make a solid argument there.
Its a bit like house design in 1980's Ireland.
...need another bedroom so just stick another one to the side of the house, job done!
Whereas a bit of planning and adjusting what already exists is the way to go.
So rather than add more rules to 'save' our game, adjust/refine/implement what we already had....
...plus improve referree standards.
Quote from: Syferus on April 07, 2015, 01:02:54 AM
They aren't related.
They most definitely are. Read what highorlow has said and explain why you feel the black card hasn't contributed to teams retreating to fill space rather than tackle higher up the pitch. Or maybe come up with another rule change. Why don't we make any player not wearing numbers 1 to 7 put wellies on if they retreat into the defensive half of the pitch? Or maybe give chocolate to any forward who spends more than 70% of the game in the attacking half? Although admittedly, this may be difficult for club game refs to keep tabs on the percentages for each forward.
You could argue that the black card has helped with our style of playing. We try to break at pace once we gain possession and prior to the black card, our runners were regularly blocked. Now this is less likely to happen.
I think the one thing that is abundantly clear is that teams are more than happy to take a black card in the last few minutes of a game if they're defending a lead.
Is it not just poor implementation of the Black card rules? Listening to the Meath/Cavan game, the Cavan commentators were decrying the lack of Black cards given. Were there incidents that were not punished?
Or it could be teams are pulling everyone back during the league to learn how to defend with one eye on being more adventerous when they turn the ball over come summer
Prior to the introduction of the black card Aidan O'Rourke, then manager of Louth, when arguing against the black card said it would make teams more defensive for the reasons outlined. If one county manager was thinking this surely some are adopting the policy now.
I don't think there is much of a link though nobody can say for sure, it probably is playing some part but it's small I'd say. I think Donegal are playing the exact same way for example but their victory over Dublin and Kerry's subsequent victory over them has proven to other managers that getting everybody back is a quick and easy way to get yourself competitive.
QuoteOr it could be teams are pulling everyone back during the league to learn how to defend with one eye on being more adventerous when they turn the ball over come summer
I think there's an element of truth in that. There is no doubt that teams are now trying things in the league so they can use them in the championship if they need to and I don't think Dublin, Kerry, Cork or Mayo for example will get too many behind the ball as a standard tactic. Nor should Tyrone but they might well. However, when teams come up against another good team playing lots of bodies behind the ball they'll do likewise and this could lead to some awful games come summer.
Kick the ball. No-one can run as fast as the ball if it is kicked.
Now I realise that means you have to have fit, fast strong lads who can play football to play football but I reckon it will catch on.
Quick direct kicked ball into forwards who are moving off their men and showing for the ball......
Also a good big man in the FF line as plan B.
Quote from: Throw ball on April 07, 2015, 12:43:49 PM
Prior to the introduction of the black card Aidan O'Rourke, then manager of Louth, when arguing against the black card said it would make teams more defensive for the reasons outlined. If one county manager was thinking this surely some are adopting the policy now.
Was thisnot just part of O'Rourke's and others desperate attempts to frustrate/dilute the black card?
There are 5 black card offences. Only 2 relate to "tackling" the man in possession. Both (dragging the man to the ground and tripping) were already fouls. Any coach/manager that has to rethink their set up because the penalty for those 2 fouls has changed is a very, very, very, very, very, very poor coach/manager and stuck in a rut with a very, very poor variant on the potentially very good game of gaelic football.
I do hope the Armagh minors do not resort to this sort of mindset.
Quote from: Jinxy on April 07, 2015, 09:50:09 AM
I think the one thing that is abundantly clear is that teams are more than happy to take a black card in the last few minutes of a game if they're defending a lead.
Exactly, it didnt stop both Kerry & Mayo doing it at the weekend when trying to defend a lead.
Kerry also got away with 2 other quite clear 'black card offences' during the game.
As was my main issue with the rule at the time, its the implentation thats is the issue, and when it comes down to it, the rule still doesnt adress the most cynical of fouls ( the dragging down of the man at the end of a game when defending a lead.
Oh, and i definatly think there is alot of truth in the OP.
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on April 08, 2015, 11:59:02 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on April 07, 2015, 09:50:09 AM
I think the one thing that is abundantly clear is that teams are more than happy to take a black card in the last few minutes of a game if they're defending a lead.
Exactly, it didnt stop both Kerry & Mayo doing it at the weekend when trying to defend a lead.
Kerry also got away with 2 other quite clear 'black card offences' during the game.
As was my main issue with the rule at the time, its the implentation thats is the issue, and when it comes down to it, the rule still doesnt adress the most cynical of fouls ( the dragging down of the man at the end of a game when defending a lead.
See I don't think that *is* the most cynical of fouls. I think the insidious fouling in the forwards all throughout the game, all in the name of killing momentum, was the most cynical and the most 'coached' aspect of cynical fouling, and that has been largely eradicated by the black card in my view.
Brolly did the rule a disservice by going mental on Sean Cavanagh, because it made people focus on that sort of foul when I think that sort of thing was just an easy video to show, and wasn't actually the problem the black card was most worried about.
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on April 08, 2015, 11:59:02 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on April 07, 2015, 09:50:09 AM
I think the one thing that is abundantly clear is that teams are more than happy to take a black card in the last few minutes of a game if they're defending a lead.
Exactly, it didnt stop both Kerry & Mayo doing it at the weekend when trying to defend a lead.
Kerry also got away with 2 other quite clear 'black card offences' during the game.
As was my main issue with the rule at the time, its the implentation thats is the issue, and when it comes down to it, the rule still doesnt adress the most cynical of fouls ( the dragging down of the man at the end of a game when defending a lead.
If we must persist with the black card, then, if received in the last 10 minutes, no replacement should be allowed.
Or maybe start suspending people for getting them? If you get two black cards you get a one game ban, something like that? Of course then we need good refs, which was one of the main issues anyway!
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 08, 2015, 12:02:18 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on April 08, 2015, 11:59:02 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on April 07, 2015, 09:50:09 AM
I think the one thing that is abundantly clear is that teams are more than happy to take a black card in the last few minutes of a game if they're defending a lead.
Exactly, it didnt stop both Kerry & Mayo doing it at the weekend when trying to defend a lead.
Kerry also got away with 2 other quite clear 'black card offences' during the game.
As was my main issue with the rule at the time, its the implentation thats is the issue, and when it comes down to it, the rule still doesnt adress the most cynical of fouls ( the dragging down of the man at the end of a game when defending a lead.
See I don't think that *is* the most cynical of fouls. I think the insidious fouling in the forwards all throughout the game, all in the name of killing momentum, was the most cynical and the most 'coached' aspect of cynical fouling, and that has been largely eradicated by the black card in my view.
Brolly did the rule a disservice by going mental on Sean Cavanagh, because it made people focus on that sort of foul when I think that sort of thing was just an easy video to show, and wasn't actually the problem the black card was most worried about.
As someone who was very opposed to it initially, I will say that it has drastically reduced the number of 'body check' type fouls which is certainly a good thing. (although how mcquillan missed one of the most obvious ones i have ever seen on sunday, i will never know)
The problem is i suppose, the nature of the these fouls are that they are off the ball, and therefore can be difficult for the referee to spot alot of teh time.
I personally would have prefereed that referees where encouraged to use the yellow card for these type of fouls (something they werent doing) and the linesmen and umpires given more scope to draw the referees attention to the off the ball ones, so that the ref could go back and issue the yellow.I think this would have had the same effect as the black card, without the inconsistancy of what is a yellow and what is a black.
The arguement against that was that a yellow wasnt enough of a deterant, but if it was implemented consistantly and for the ones the ref didnt spot himself, i think it most definatly would have been.The black card is still no more deterent for the end of game drag down foul than a yellow would have been
Quote from: BennyHarp on April 08, 2015, 12:04:50 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on April 08, 2015, 11:59:02 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on April 07, 2015, 09:50:09 AM
I think the one thing that is abundantly clear is that teams are more than happy to take a black card in the last few minutes of a game if they're defending a lead.
Exactly, it didnt stop both Kerry & Mayo doing it at the weekend when trying to defend a lead.
Kerry also got away with 2 other quite clear 'black card offences' during the game.
As was my main issue with the rule at the time, its the implentation thats is the issue, and when it comes down to it, the rule still doesnt adress the most cynical of fouls ( the dragging down of the man at the end of a game when defending a lead.
If we must persist with the black card, then, if received in the last 10 minutes, no replacement should be allowed.
+1
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on April 08, 2015, 12:11:51 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 08, 2015, 12:02:18 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on April 08, 2015, 11:59:02 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on April 07, 2015, 09:50:09 AM
I think the one thing that is abundantly clear is that teams are more than happy to take a black card in the last few minutes of a game if they're defending a lead.
Exactly, it didnt stop both Kerry & Mayo doing it at the weekend when trying to defend a lead.
Kerry also got away with 2 other quite clear 'black card offences' during the game.
As was my main issue with the rule at the time, its the implentation thats is the issue, and when it comes down to it, the rule still doesnt adress the most cynical of fouls ( the dragging down of the man at the end of a game when defending a lead.
See I don't think that *is* the most cynical of fouls. I think the insidious fouling in the forwards all throughout the game, all in the name of killing momentum, was the most cynical and the most 'coached' aspect of cynical fouling, and that has been largely eradicated by the black card in my view.
Brolly did the rule a disservice by going mental on Sean Cavanagh, because it made people focus on that sort of foul when I think that sort of thing was just an easy video to show, and wasn't actually the problem the black card was most worried about.
As someone who was very opposed to it initially, I will say that it has drastically reduced the number of 'body check' type fouls which is certainly a good thing. (although how mcquillan missed one of the most obvious ones i have ever seen on sunday, i will never know)
The problem is i suppose, the nature of the these fouls are that they are off the ball, and therefore can be difficult for the referee to spot alot of teh time.
I personally would have prefereed that referees where encouraged to use the yellow card for these type of fouls (something they werent doing) and the linesmen and umpires given more scope to draw the referees attention to the off the ball ones, so that the ref could go back and issue the yellow.I think this would have had the same effect as the black card, without the inconsistancy of what is a yellow and what is a black.
The arguement against that was that a yellow wasnt enough of a deterant, but if it was implemented consistantly and for the ones the ref didnt spot himself, i think it most definatly would have been.The black card is still no more deterent for the end of game drag down foul than a yellow would have been
As AZ points out that wasn't really the type of foul it was brought in to address though. Nothing will deter lads from fouling in the last few minutes under certain circumstances so I don't think we should be overly concerned with that. Of course it would be great to have something that would deter lads even in the last few minutes but I don't think there is an easy fix to that one. The black card has done a good job in what it was designed to address IMO.
The tackle itself can be much more robust in the referees eyes when opposing players are facing each other whereas when the ball is turned over and the attacking team is suddenly chasing a player the slightest hand on the back while putting a hand in is always blown as a free. Players playing the blanket know this and hit the ground with the slightest of contact to win the scorable free.
A ref in each half a possibility?
Jaysus Johnny we can't get one man to be consistent what hope would we with too? Imagine the post match analysis if one ref was whistle happy and the other leaving a lot more go and lads were pointing out that a free one end of the pitch wasn't at the other?
Quote from: Zulu on April 08, 2015, 01:48:43 PM
Jaysus Johnny we can't get one man to be consistent what hope would we with too? Imagine the post match analysis if one ref was whistle happy and the other leaving a lot more go and lads were pointing out that a free one end of the pitch wasn't at the other?
works well in Aussie rules. The advantage being that the second red can see the ball and therefor can also see if it's been tackled correctly or not. 2 refs would be communicating with one another.
Another minor point, recently we've had a campaign of 'give respect get respect' what about a fair play campaign to try a culture change within the sport! Teach kids to play fair!
Agree, I try to be very strict on the tackle with kids and we use a rule in many of our blitzes where any show of disrespect to a ref or their decision automatically results in a 13m free in front of the posts. I think it would be very easy to eradicate that stuff from our game if we really enforced the fact you can't say anything to the ref or throw a huff at their decisions at underage level.
Quote from: Zulu on April 08, 2015, 02:18:18 PM
Agree, I try to be very strict on the tackle with kids and we use a rule in many of our blitzes where any show of disrespect to a ref or their decision automatically results in a 13m free in front of the posts. I think it would be very easy to eradicate that stuff from our game if we really enforced the fact you can't say anything to the ref or throw a huff at their decisions at underage level.
thats Gud to hear! What really gets my back up is mentors on the sideline trying to bully a ref who as you know would also be in his/her teens all on the name of their own glory!
We currently have seven officials at all inter-county and senior club championship games. We need to allow the six, other than the referee to take a greater part in the game.
As it stands, what exactly are the linesmen allowed to do? Call a line ball and tell the referee about off the ball incidents? Similarly the umpires can call a score or point out an off the ball incident.
Whatever about the umpires, who aren't necessarily qualified officials, surely the linesmen could act as some sort of refs and all of a sudden you have three people officiating.
Quote from: Zulu on April 08, 2015, 01:12:50 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on April 08, 2015, 12:11:51 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 08, 2015, 12:02:18 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on April 08, 2015, 11:59:02 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on April 07, 2015, 09:50:09 AM
I think the one thing that is abundantly clear is that teams are more than happy to take a black card in the last few minutes of a game if they're defending a lead.
Exactly, it didnt stop both Kerry & Mayo doing it at the weekend when trying to defend a lead.
Kerry also got away with 2 other quite clear 'black card offences' during the game.
As was my main issue with the rule at the time, its the implentation thats is the issue, and when it comes down to it, the rule still doesnt adress the most cynical of fouls ( the dragging down of the man at the end of a game when defending a lead.
See I don't think that *is* the most cynical of fouls. I think the insidious fouling in the forwards all throughout the game, all in the name of killing momentum, was the most cynical and the most 'coached' aspect of cynical fouling, and that has been largely eradicated by the black card in my view.
Brolly did the rule a disservice by going mental on Sean Cavanagh, because it made people focus on that sort of foul when I think that sort of thing was just an easy video to show, and wasn't actually the problem the black card was most worried about.
As someone who was very opposed to it initially, I will say that it has drastically reduced the number of 'body check' type fouls which is certainly a good thing. (although how mcquillan missed one of the most obvious ones i have ever seen on sunday, i will never know)
The problem is i suppose, the nature of the these fouls are that they are off the ball, and therefore can be difficult for the referee to spot alot of teh time.
I personally would have prefereed that referees where encouraged to use the yellow card for these type of fouls (something they werent doing) and the linesmen and umpires given more scope to draw the referees attention to the off the ball ones, so that the ref could go back and issue the yellow.I think this would have had the same effect as the black card, without the inconsistancy of what is a yellow and what is a black.
The arguement against that was that a yellow wasnt enough of a deterant, but if it was implemented consistantly and for the ones the ref didnt spot himself, i think it most definatly would have been.The black card is still no more deterent for the end of game drag down foul than a yellow would have been
As AZ points out that wasn't really the type of foul it was brought in to address though. Nothing will deter lads from fouling in the last few minutes under certain circumstances so I don't think we should be overly concerned with that. Of course it would be great to have something that would deter lads even in the last few minutes but I don't think there is an easy fix to that one. The black card has done a good job in what it was designed to address IMO.
An automatic 13 metre free in front of the posts will cut out such fouls. If the player is hauling someone down to prevent a promising attack developing, then the punishment should on the scoreboard rather than with card colours.
In the cases where the drag down prevented a clear goal chance, then the ref should have the power to award the penalty. We need to trust refs to make the interpretation.
The fairest punishment for Sean Cavanagh dragging down Conor McManus should have been a penalty to Monaghan and not cards, fines, jailings, lashings etc.
I agree but there's no hope of something like being adopt.
Lads when was the term blanket defence first used in football? i was watching back on the 98 Galway documentary a year til Sunday tonight & John O'Mahony mentioned breaking down the Kildare blanket defence in his pre match talk.
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on April 08, 2015, 05:21:49 PM
Quote from: Zulu on April 08, 2015, 01:12:50 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on April 08, 2015, 12:11:51 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 08, 2015, 12:02:18 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on April 08, 2015, 11:59:02 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on April 07, 2015, 09:50:09 AM
I think the one thing that is abundantly clear is that teams are more than happy to take a black card in the last few minutes of a game if they're defending a lead.
Exactly, it didnt stop both Kerry & Mayo doing it at the weekend when trying to defend a lead.
Kerry also got away with 2 other quite clear 'black card offences' during the game.
As was my main issue with the rule at the time, its the implentation thats is the issue, and when it comes down to it, the rule still doesnt adress the most cynical of fouls ( the dragging down of the man at the end of a game when defending a lead.
See I don't think that *is* the most cynical of fouls. I think the insidious fouling in the forwards all throughout the game, all in the name of killing momentum, was the most cynical and the most 'coached' aspect of cynical fouling, and that has been largely eradicated by the black card in my view.
Brolly did the rule a disservice by going mental on Sean Cavanagh, because it made people focus on that sort of foul when I think that sort of thing was just an easy video to show, and wasn't actually the problem the black card was most worried about.
As someone who was very opposed to it initially, I will say that it has drastically reduced the number of 'body check' type fouls which is certainly a good thing. (although how mcquillan missed one of the most obvious ones i have ever seen on sunday, i will never know)
The problem is i suppose, the nature of the these fouls are that they are off the ball, and therefore can be difficult for the referee to spot alot of teh time.
I personally would have prefereed that referees where encouraged to use the yellow card for these type of fouls (something they werent doing) and the linesmen and umpires given more scope to draw the referees attention to the off the ball ones, so that the ref could go back and issue the yellow.I think this would have had the same effect as the black card, without the inconsistancy of what is a yellow and what is a black.
The arguement against that was that a yellow wasnt enough of a deterant, but if it was implemented consistantly and for the ones the ref didnt spot himself, i think it most definatly would have been.The black card is still no more deterent for the end of game drag down foul than a yellow would have been
As AZ points out that wasn't really the type of foul it was brought in to address though. Nothing will deter lads from fouling in the last few minutes under certain circumstances so I don't think we should be overly concerned with that. Of course it would be great to have something that would deter lads even in the last few minutes but I don't think there is an easy fix to that one. The black card has done a good job in what it was designed to address IMO.
An automatic 13 metre free in front of the posts will cut out such fouls. If the player is hauling someone down to prevent a promising attack developing, then the punishment should on the scoreboard rather than with card colours.
In the cases where the drag down prevented a clear goal chance, then the ref should have the power to award the penalty. We need to trust refs to make the interpretation.
The fairest punishment for Sean Cavanagh dragging down Conor McManus should have been a penalty to Monaghan and not cards, fines, jailings, lashings etc.
For blatantly denying a clear goal scoring chance like Cavanagh did it should be a straight red card with a 2 match ban - apart from All-Ireland final game players won't take a chance