Paul Kimmage interviews Sean Cavanagh

[Hound]

How would you know that all these young men in their 20's want to go to mass enbloc?

I'd say that as a representative group for lads that age they are an outlier wrt attending Mass.

Would there be the potential for lads to feel pressure to attend Mass to keep the right side of management??

Going to mass because it might keep you on the right side of management is completely different from being forced to go to mass. There's plenty of adults who head home for the weekend and go to mass to keep on the right side of their parents, but never go when their parents aren't around!

There's absolutely no suggestion that Harte has ever not picked someone for not going to mass. In fact, there's plenty of evidence of him continuing to pick someone who's personal choices are completely at odds with catholic ethos.

[trileacman]

Thats false equivalence. A) you were a kid,  B) they were your parents who raised you, clothed you and looked out for you.

These are grown men and it regards playing county football for a mildly successful team managed by a man who is routinely under a barrage of criticism and scrutiny. Dozens of players and coaching staff have walked away from Harte and gone to be highly successful afterwards in life, football and work. I don't t if any of these men are in a crisis as to whether mumbiling the rosary and daydreaming through mass is an affront to their deeply held beliefs. And even if it were I'd question the sanity of men who'd persevere through such a moral crisis for the reward of a mc Kenna cup match or 15 mins against Carlow in the qualifiers.

You're making this a personal issue. Personally youve objections to it but your projecting your moral objections onto a Tyrone panel who've to date only ever expressed apathy and a sense of inconvenience to it.

Look, I'm not blind to the fact that the landscape in Tyrone is a bit different when it comes to issues of religion, identity etc.
I can understand why people from your neck of the woods might think, 'Sure what's all the fuss about?'
There are far worse things in life than being compelled to sit in a church daydreaming for half an hour for the sake of team unity.
I go to plenty of funerals, weddings etc. to support my friends & family in times of happiness and sadness.
I don't take communion because I believe that would be incredibly hypocritical and also pretty disrespectful to those who genuinely believe.
My specific issue in the context of the Tyrone regime is the notion that players can freely opt in or out.
If they're going to mass and they want to go to mass, the best of luck to them.
If they're going to mass because they feel they've no choice in the matter, I think that's wrong.

What if some of them are going to mass because they want to go to mass and the rest, about half of them are going to support their friends and management just like yourself at weddings/funerals and do so with a sense of respect for the faith of their friends. Like if Harte and the religious players, who there are undoubtedly a few of, are  saying "lads it would mean a lot to us if we could go to mass as a group and say an odd rosary after a match" would you be the man to say "f**k that I'm dead against it or would you say "ara it's all a load of makey up bollix but sure I'll go along with it if it's what the group want to do."

There's this ridiculous suggestion that there's a cell of Tyrone players or potential players who are militant atheists  for whom the attendance at mass stands as a contradiction to their most sincerely held beliefs which they are forgoing for the "glory" of being a Tyrone player.

They're a few lapsed catholics going along with the flow, it's not lads gang-pressed in chains up to the face of the alter.



Also less of the "your neck of the woods" stuff, that's a subconscious derogatory suggestion that rabid fundamental Catholicism is still the centre point of a "backwater" like Tyrone.

[Jinxy]

Here comes the persecution complex.
Surprised it took this long.

[omaghjoe]

Here comes the persecution complex.
Surprised it took this long.

He's bang on.

Where was the persecution complex?
You obviously have the mindset that Tyrone have that complex so you just roll out that line when you don't want or can't counter

[tonto1888]

Here comes the persecution complex.
Surprised it took this long.

He's bang on.

Where was the persecution complex?
You obviously have the mindset that Tyrone have that complex so you just roll out that line when you don't want or can't counter

I would imagine he means the last paragraph. And he would be right

[omaghjoe]

Here comes the persecution complex.
Surprised it took this long.

He's bang on.

Where was the persecution complex?
You obviously have the mindset that Tyrone have that complex so you just roll out that line when you don't want or can't counter

I would imagine he means the last paragraph. And he would be right

FFS he was rebuffing a point that he had made there was no inferiority complex unless he was looking to set it up himself as a way out of the discussion

If I said that the popularity of Buckfast in Armagh was down to it being such a dire shithole would you just let the point go?

[westbound]

'Your neck of the woods" is a subconscious derogatory term now is it?   

And I thought the split dublin thread was gone ridiculous! 

[HiMucker]

Jesus some of the Tyronies have gone ultra defensive, not surprising! Fair play to you Jinxy I wouldn't have wasted as much time on it. If you cant see what is wrong with it then I don't know. I don't think Harte is doing anything that controversial, it just shouldn't be done in this day and age when all work places, clubs whatever are trying to be inclusive. The Tyrone senior team is a shop front for the GAA in Tyrone and the country, and whether we like it or not the GAA would be seen as a cold house for some and things like this don't help. It might not make a blind bit of difference to participation now or in 5 years but that's not the point. It could make a difference a generation down the line, and how the same people who would rightly criticise the IFA or other institutions cant see that is confusing. I have made the same point about club masses. There is just no need for them anymore.

[tonto1888]

Here comes the persecution complex.
Surprised it took this long.

He's bang on.

Where was the persecution complex?
You obviously have the mindset that Tyrone have that complex so you just roll out that line when you don't want or can't counter

I would imagine he means the last paragraph. And he would be right

FFS he was rebuffing a point that he had made there was no inferiority complex unless he was looking to set it up himself as a way out of the discussion

If I said that the popularity of Buckfast in Armagh was down to it being such a dire shithole would you just let the point go?

The popularity of buckfast in Armagh is because we have good taste. Armagh being a shithole has nothing to do with t

I assumed yer mans problem with Jinxys post was the in your neck of the wooods bit. Maybe I was wrong

[twohands!!!]

The religious stuff is disgusting carry-on by Harte.

Complete abuse of his position.

[omaghjoe]

Here comes the persecution complex.
Surprised it took this long.

He's bang on.

Where was the persecution complex?
You obviously have the mindset that Tyrone have that complex so you just roll out that line when you don't want or can't counter

I would imagine he means the last paragraph. And he would be right

FFS he was rebuffing a point that he had made there was no inferiority complex unless he was looking to set it up himself as a way out of the discussion

If I said that the popularity of Buckfast in Armagh was down to it being such a dire shithole would you just let the point go?

The popularity of buckfast in Armagh is because we have good taste. Armagh being a shithole has nothing to do with t

I assumed yer mans problem with Jinxys post was the in your neck of the wooods bit. Maybe I was wrong

Thats entirely my point...

Tyrone has an identity problem therefore displays of religion are more acceptable there
=
Armagh is a shithole therefore they need to drink cheap fortified wine

Retorted by...
Behind the scenes prayer before a match has nothing to do with the level of geographical acceptability of religion.
=
Buckfast popularity in Armagh is nothing to do with it being a shithole.

[trileacman]

Here comes the persecution complex.
Surprised it took this long.

A trite response.

[BennyCake]

Would be some craic if the next Tyrone senior mens football manager after Mickey Harte is a Jehovas Witness where all members of the playing panel get free monthly copies of The Watchtower and are asked from time to time to accompany him (or her) going around knocking on people's doors.

How many Bob Dylan tracks did everyone else spot here?

[BennyCake]

Do you genuinely believe all the Tyrone players want to go to mass and say the rosary etc.?
And if the answer is 'No', then do you think any individual player would feel free to opt out?
I went to mass every Sunday when I was a child.
NEVER wanted to be there and when I said it to my parents later in life they said, "Sure no one was forcing you to go".
Technically that's true, but if the assumption has always been that you will go and everyone else is going too, are you likely to turn around to your parents and say, "Actually, I don't fancy this religion stuff at all".
There is an implicit power imbalance here.
All the power resides with Mickey Harte in this equation.
If you made the panel after slogging your guts out and you're desperately trying to break into the first XV, are you going to turn around to Mickey and say, "Count me out of this stuff"?
Mickey may well be fine with that, but that's not the point.
You're presenting the player with a difficult choice he should never have to make about something that has absolutely nothing to do with sport.
Would you take the risk that opting out of mass, the rosary etc. will put a black mark against your name?

That's funny. Sean Boylan did exactly the same with Meath and won 4 All Irelands doing it. They've won nothing since he was ousted.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/many-of-the-meath-team-had-gyms-then-they-were-called-farms-26212721.html

One big advantage we had at the time was that the routine changed little for many years. We had a kick around on Saturday evenings before all big games, attended Mass and went home to our own beds. Most of our matches were in Croke Park so Sunday was basically the same, whether the game was an early championship outing or the final.

a) I'd imagine all of those players were regular mass-goers, as most of the country was back then.
b) Regardless of that, I still don't agree with it.
'What we used to do' doesn't really cut the mustard as an argument.
The Captains don't kiss the bishops ring before games anymore and the mere idea that they ever did is laughable in this day and age.
Times change, attitudes change.

Jaysus thon was a weird tradition alright

[redzone]

Rosary was said 2/3 times altogether. Cavanagh making fools out yous