A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

Started by winghalfback, May 27, 2015, 03:16:23 PM

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Franko

Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2015, 07:51:00 PM
Point of order- blue shirts only came into existence in 1933/34.
If the treaty hadn't been accepted by the Dàil what were the few hundred volunteers armed with an assortment of guns going to do exactly?

Who knows.  But they chose to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.  'Freedom to win freedom' was never going to work and anyone with an ounce of political wit would have seen that.  3000 odd deaths in the troubles sorted that one.

And the comment on arguments being 'fact free'.  Some facts may be uncomfortable.  They are still facts.

And as for your point of order, it's more a colloquial term.  Muppet mentioned 'paddies' earlier on.  Could you tell me when exactly that grouping was formed?

easytiger95

Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2015, 07:51:00 PM
Point of order- blue shirts only came into existence in 1933/34.
If the treaty hadn't been accepted by the Dàil what were the few hundred volunteers armed with an assortment of guns going to do exactly?

Who knows.  But they chose to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.  'Freedom to win freedom' was never going to work and anyone with an ounce of political wit would have seen that.  3000 odd deaths in the troubles sorted that one.

And the comment on arguments being 'fact free'.  Some facts may be uncomfortable.  They are still facts.

And as for your point of order, it's more a colloquial term.  Muppet mentioned 'paddies' earlier on.  Could you tell me when exactly that grouping was formed?

i think the basic argument here Franko is that you are unable to distinguish between fact and opinion.

Fact - the treaty was passed by a majority in the Dail 64-57.

Opinion - those who voted yes were "treacherous cowards".

No matter how much you'd like to, you still can't change the fact that the former is a fact and the latter is an opinion. Fact.

And now, back to the reality based universe...

Franko

Quote from: easytiger95 on November 24, 2015, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2015, 07:51:00 PM
Point of order- blue shirts only came into existence in 1933/34.
If the treaty hadn't been accepted by the Dàil what were the few hundred volunteers armed with an assortment of guns going to do exactly?

Who knows.  But they chose to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.  'Freedom to win freedom' was never going to work and anyone with an ounce of political wit would have seen that.  3000 odd deaths in the troubles sorted that one.

And the comment on arguments being 'fact free'.  Some facts may be uncomfortable.  They are still facts.

And as for your point of order, it's more a colloquial term.  Muppet mentioned 'paddies' earlier on.  Could you tell me when exactly that grouping was formed?

i think the basic argument here Franko is that you are unable to distinguish between fact and opinion.

Fact - the Dail voted by 64-57 to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.

Opinion - those who voted yes were "treacherous cowards".

No matter how much you'd like to, you still can't change the fact that the former is a fact and the latter is an opinion. Fact.

And now, back to the reality based universe...

How about that for a reality based universe?

seafoid

Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2015, 07:51:00 PM
Point of order- blue shirts only came into existence in 1933/34.
If the treaty hadn't been accepted by the Dàil what were the few hundred volunteers armed with an assortment of guns going to do exactly?

Who knows.  But they chose to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.  'Freedom to win freedom' was never going to work and anyone with an ounce of political wit would have seen that.  3000 odd deaths in the troubles sorted that one.

And the comment on arguments being 'fact free'.  Some facts may be uncomfortable.  They are still facts.

And as for your point of order, it's more a colloquial term.  Muppet mentioned 'paddies' earlier on.  Could you tell me when exactly that grouping was formed?
The Ulster Covenant and the gun running in 1912 was designed to send a message to everyone about home rule. 
http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/ulster_covenant.htm

Who would have fought the Covenanters ? Devalera ?
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Rossfan

Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 11:15:08 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on November 24, 2015, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2015, 07:51:00 PM
Point of order- blue shirts only came into existence in 1933/34.
If the treaty hadn't been accepted by the Dàil what were the few hundred volunteers armed with an assortment of guns going to do exactly?

Who knows.  But they chose to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.  'Freedom to win freedom' was never going to work and anyone with an ounce of political wit would have seen that.  3000 odd deaths in the troubles sorted that one.

And the comment on arguments being 'fact free'.  Some facts may be uncomfortable.  They are still facts.

And as for your point of order, it's more a colloquial term.  Muppet mentioned 'paddies' earlier on.  Could you tell me when exactly that grouping was formed?

i think the basic argument here Franko is that you are unable to distinguish between fact and opinion.

Fact - the Dail voted by 64-57 to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.

Opinion - those who voted yes were "treacherous cowards".

No matter how much you'd like to, you still can't change the fact that the former is a fact and the latter is an opinion. Fact.

And now, back to the reality based universe...

How about that for a reality based universe?

More opinion by a closed mind.

Fact - over 60% of the "people of the north" didn't want any hand act or part in a free or home rule All Ireland
Fact - the anti Treatyites were opposed to the Oath of allegaince and the fact that the proposed Irish Free State would be a self governing British Dominion rather than an Independent Republic. That's what the Civil war was fought over - not the Status of the North Eastern 6 Counties.
Question - how was a ramshackle army of half trained and badly armed guerillas going to invade and overcome a well armed similar army of Unionists and the army of the biggest Empire in the World?
Opinion - Many thousands of lives would be lost and we would have ended up with a "Southern Ireland" of either 23 or 26 Counties with a local devolved administration as proposed by the Brits' Government of Ireland Act 1920. We would all still be British Citizens and would all be only entitled to British Nationality.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Denn Forever

Don't know how feasable it will be when there  is such furore about having a civic  reception for the Northern Irish and Rep of Ireland teams for getting to Euro 2016 in Belfast?
I have more respect for a man
that says what he means and
means what he says...

deiseach

Quote from: Denn Forever on November 24, 2015, 11:58:44 AM
Don't know how feasable it will be when there  is such furore about having a civic  reception for the Northern Irish and Rep of Ireland teams for getting to Euro 2016 in Belfast?

I had to laugh out loud at the contribution of 'LordColeraine' over on the Telegraph story about this:

QuoteThis is disgraceful inviting players from the Occupied 26 counties into Free Ulster. I wouldn't have a t**g about the place, especially not in Belfast City Hall where our glorious leader, Lord Edward Carson, signed the magnificent Ulster Covenant. This binds us to resist Dublin rule by any means necessary. If the SDLP, Sinn Fein and their republican counterparts in the Alliance Party/IRA bring these louts to Ulster, I shall have no choice but to wait outside City Hall and fling cream pies at them. They won't be laughing when they're covered in my cream.

easytiger95

Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 11:15:08 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on November 24, 2015, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2015, 07:51:00 PM
Point of order- blue shirts only came into existence in 1933/34.
If the treaty hadn't been accepted by the Dàil what were the few hundred volunteers armed with an assortment of guns going to do exactly?

Who knows.  But they chose to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.  'Freedom to win freedom' was never going to work and anyone with an ounce of political wit would have seen that.  3000 odd deaths in the troubles sorted that one.

And the comment on arguments being 'fact free'.  Some facts may be uncomfortable.  They are still facts.

And as for your point of order, it's more a colloquial term.  Muppet mentioned 'paddies' earlier on.  Could you tell me when exactly that grouping was formed?

i think the basic argument here Franko is that you are unable to distinguish between fact and opinion.

Fact - the Dail voted by 64-57 to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.

Opinion - those who voted yes were "treacherous cowards".

No matter how much you'd like to, you still can't change the fact that the former is a fact and the latter is an opinion. Fact.

And now, back to the reality based universe...

How about that for a reality based universe?

Not based in reality so not very good.

muppet

Quote from: easytiger95 on November 24, 2015, 01:01:55 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 11:15:08 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on November 24, 2015, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2015, 07:51:00 PM
Point of order- blue shirts only came into existence in 1933/34.
If the treaty hadn't been accepted by the Dàil what were the few hundred volunteers armed with an assortment of guns going to do exactly?

Who knows.  But they chose to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.  'Freedom to win freedom' was never going to work and anyone with an ounce of political wit would have seen that.  3000 odd deaths in the troubles sorted that one.

And the comment on arguments being 'fact free'.  Some facts may be uncomfortable.  They are still facts.

And as for your point of order, it's more a colloquial term.  Muppet mentioned 'paddies' earlier on.  Could you tell me when exactly that grouping was formed?

i think the basic argument here Franko is that you are unable to distinguish between fact and opinion.

Fact - the Dail voted by 64-57 to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.

Opinion - those who voted yes were "treacherous cowards".

No matter how much you'd like to, you still can't change the fact that the former is a fact and the latter is an opinion. Fact.

And now, back to the reality based universe...

How about that for a reality based universe?

Not based in reality so not very good.

Fanatical adherence to dogma is the bane of modern society.
MWWSI 2017

Franko

Quote from: muppet on November 24, 2015, 01:28:29 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on November 24, 2015, 01:01:55 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 11:15:08 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on November 24, 2015, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2015, 07:51:00 PM
Point of order- blue shirts only came into existence in 1933/34.
If the treaty hadn't been accepted by the Dàil what were the few hundred volunteers armed with an assortment of guns going to do exactly?

Who knows.  But they chose to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.  'Freedom to win freedom' was never going to work and anyone with an ounce of political wit would have seen that.  3000 odd deaths in the troubles sorted that one.

And the comment on arguments being 'fact free'.  Some facts may be uncomfortable.  They are still facts.

And as for your point of order, it's more a colloquial term.  Muppet mentioned 'paddies' earlier on.  Could you tell me when exactly that grouping was formed?

i think the basic argument here Franko is that you are unable to distinguish between fact and opinion.

Fact - the Dail voted by 64-57 to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.

Opinion - those who voted yes were "treacherous cowards".

No matter how much you'd like to, you still can't change the fact that the former is a fact and the latter is an opinion. Fact.

And now, back to the reality based universe...

How about that for a reality based universe?

Not based in reality so not very good.

Fanatical adherence to dogma is the bane of modern society.

Are both these statements facts or opinions?

And again muppet, can we please have less of the ad hominem attacks.  It's getting tiresome.

Franko

Quote from: Rossfan on November 24, 2015, 11:56:09 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 11:15:08 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on November 24, 2015, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2015, 07:51:00 PM
Point of order- blue shirts only came into existence in 1933/34.
If the treaty hadn't been accepted by the Dàil what were the few hundred volunteers armed with an assortment of guns going to do exactly?

Who knows.  But they chose to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.  'Freedom to win freedom' was never going to work and anyone with an ounce of political wit would have seen that.  3000 odd deaths in the troubles sorted that one.

And the comment on arguments being 'fact free'.  Some facts may be uncomfortable.  They are still facts.

And as for your point of order, it's more a colloquial term.  Muppet mentioned 'paddies' earlier on.  Could you tell me when exactly that grouping was formed?

i think the basic argument here Franko is that you are unable to distinguish between fact and opinion.

Fact - the Dail voted by 64-57 to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.

Opinion - those who voted yes were "treacherous cowards".

No matter how much you'd like to, you still can't change the fact that the former is a fact and the latter is an opinion. Fact.

And now, back to the reality based universe...

How about that for a reality based universe?

More opinion by a closed mind.

Fact - over 60% of the "people of the north" didn't want any hand act or part in a free or home rule All Ireland
Fact - the anti Treatyites were opposed to the Oath of allegaince and the fact that the proposed Irish Free State would be a self governing British Dominion rather than an Independent Republic. That's what the Civil war was fought over - not the Status of the North Eastern 6 Counties.
Question - how was a ramshackle army of half trained and badly armed guerillas going to invade and overcome a well armed similar army of Unionists and the army of the biggest Empire in the World?
Opinion - Many thousands of lives would be lost and we would have ended up with a "Southern Ireland" of either 23 or 26 Counties with a local devolved administration as proposed by the Brits' Government of Ireland Act 1920. We would all still be British Citizens and would all be only entitled to British Nationality.

Unless you can provide sources, your two "facts" are also opinions.  I don't believe a survey of the anti treatyites was ever conducted asking why they were fighting?

As for your question, the same "ramshackle army" had got things that far.

You opinion I'll counter with a fact.  Many thousands of lives were lost, but only in the north of course.

muppet

Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 01:32:55 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 24, 2015, 01:28:29 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on November 24, 2015, 01:01:55 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 11:15:08 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on November 24, 2015, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2015, 07:51:00 PM
Point of order- blue shirts only came into existence in 1933/34.
If the treaty hadn't been accepted by the Dàil what were the few hundred volunteers armed with an assortment of guns going to do exactly?

Who knows.  But they chose to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.  'Freedom to win freedom' was never going to work and anyone with an ounce of political wit would have seen that.  3000 odd deaths in the troubles sorted that one.

And the comment on arguments being 'fact free'.  Some facts may be uncomfortable.  They are still facts.

And as for your point of order, it's more a colloquial term.  Muppet mentioned 'paddies' earlier on.  Could you tell me when exactly that grouping was formed?

i think the basic argument here Franko is that you are unable to distinguish between fact and opinion.

Fact - the Dail voted by 64-57 to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.

Opinion - those who voted yes were "treacherous cowards".

No matter how much you'd like to, you still can't change the fact that the former is a fact and the latter is an opinion. Fact.

And now, back to the reality based universe...

How about that for a reality based universe?

Not based in reality so not very good.

Fanatical adherence to dogma is the bane of modern society.

Are both these statements facts or opinions?

And again muppet, can we please have less of the ad hominem attacks.  It's getting tiresome.

First of all it is one statement.

Secondly, it is clearly an opinion.

Thirdly I was thinking of ISIS, the NRA, and any terrorist organisation you can think of, the Catholic's reaction to clerical abuse, etc, etc. Look at what is gong on in the world.

It isn't all about you.




MWWSI 2017

Franko

Quote from: muppet on November 24, 2015, 01:42:21 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 01:32:55 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 24, 2015, 01:28:29 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on November 24, 2015, 01:01:55 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 11:15:08 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on November 24, 2015, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2015, 07:51:00 PM
Point of order- blue shirts only came into existence in 1933/34.
If the treaty hadn't been accepted by the Dàil what were the few hundred volunteers armed with an assortment of guns going to do exactly?

Who knows.  But they chose to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.  'Freedom to win freedom' was never going to work and anyone with an ounce of political wit would have seen that.  3000 odd deaths in the troubles sorted that one.

And the comment on arguments being 'fact free'.  Some facts may be uncomfortable.  They are still facts.

And as for your point of order, it's more a colloquial term.  Muppet mentioned 'paddies' earlier on.  Could you tell me when exactly that grouping was formed?

i think the basic argument here Franko is that you are unable to distinguish between fact and opinion.

Fact - the Dail voted by 64-57 to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.

Opinion - those who voted yes were "treacherous cowards".

No matter how much you'd like to, you still can't change the fact that the former is a fact and the latter is an opinion. Fact.

And now, back to the reality based universe...

How about that for a reality based universe?

Not based in reality so not very good.

Fanatical adherence to dogma is the bane of modern society.

Are both these statements facts or opinions?

And again muppet, can we please have less of the ad hominem attacks.  It's getting tiresome.

First of all it is one statement.

Secondly, it is clearly an opinion.

Thirdly I was thinking of ISIS, the NRA, and any terrorist organisation you can think of, the Catholic's reaction to clerical abuse, etc, etc. Look at what is gong on in the world.

It isn't all about you.

I clearly quoted both you and easytiger.

It isn't all about you.

muppet

Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 01:54:07 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 24, 2015, 01:42:21 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 01:32:55 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 24, 2015, 01:28:29 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on November 24, 2015, 01:01:55 PM
Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 11:15:08 AM
Quote from: easytiger95 on November 24, 2015, 10:41:53 AM
Quote from: Franko on November 24, 2015, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 23, 2015, 07:51:00 PM
Point of order- blue shirts only came into existence in 1933/34.
If the treaty hadn't been accepted by the Dàil what were the few hundred volunteers armed with an assortment of guns going to do exactly?

Who knows.  But they chose to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.  'Freedom to win freedom' was never going to work and anyone with an ounce of political wit would have seen that.  3000 odd deaths in the troubles sorted that one.

And the comment on arguments being 'fact free'.  Some facts may be uncomfortable.  They are still facts.

And as for your point of order, it's more a colloquial term.  Muppet mentioned 'paddies' earlier on.  Could you tell me when exactly that grouping was formed?

i think the basic argument here Franko is that you are unable to distinguish between fact and opinion.

Fact - the Dail voted by 64-57 to ditch the people of the north and save their own hides.

Opinion - those who voted yes were "treacherous cowards".

No matter how much you'd like to, you still can't change the fact that the former is a fact and the latter is an opinion. Fact.

And now, back to the reality based universe...

How about that for a reality based universe?

Not based in reality so not very good.

Fanatical adherence to dogma is the bane of modern society.

Are both these statements facts or opinions?

And again muppet, can we please have less of the ad hominem attacks.  It's getting tiresome.

First of all it is one statement.

Secondly, it is clearly an opinion.

Thirdly I was thinking of ISIS, the NRA, and any terrorist organisation you can think of, the Catholic's reaction to clerical abuse, etc, etc. Look at what is gong on in the world.

It isn't all about you.

I clearly quoted both you and easytiger.

It isn't all about you.

Nope, you quoted my post. And you named me only.

My post quoted easytiger95's post.

He quoted yours. Etc.

See how it works?
MWWSI 2017

Franko

Oh I know how it works.  My post quoted both your post and easytiger's.

I only referred to you directly in the second part of the post.

Just admit you didn't read it so as everyone can move on from this.