£150 per hour - not enough?

[delboy]

Of course you could waffle some stuff about the way of the world and how you to could train as one of the elite electricians and then you to could complain about only getting +£150 an hour 

or i could go and train at something that pays me sufficiently that I don't bitch about other people's wages- oh wait...

Thats your come back  You seem rather to have missed the point anyway, despite your rather tame attempt at a come back im not griping out of jealousy, im calling into question the notion that a self serving cartel such as the legal profession can hold the PUBLIC purse to ransom to the tune of over £150 pound an hour. Why because largely speaking they have autonomy over how many people can enter that profession at any one time, thereby negating market forces. If you are happy to see public money bankrolling this good for you.

I would suggest however that autonomy should be taken out of the hands of the various associations and societies representing the professions so that we could train as many of each as required for our/the general publics needs rather than the benefits/financial gain of the members of these professions. If that meant we trained more people in the legal profession to drive down costs and get cases through the courts quicker so be it.
If it meant training lots more dentists so that we all had ready access to dental treatment even if this made the career of a dentist a tad less lucrative so be it, etc etc.

If you can see any major flaws in this argument please feel free to point them out.

[The Real Laoislad]

I would consider myself a elite Electrician  but I'm bloody not charging €150 an hour...

[Puckoon]

I think its worth pointing out that there are a large proportion of younger barristers who have to seriously struggle for a long time before they make any sort of comfortable living. They have to pay thousands out up front in training and professional fees to enter a profession with no guaranteed work and even less guaranteed payment. I take the point that every profession has issues with unpaid bills but it is a genuine difficulty for barristers.

Yes, there are high fees paid to a percentage of barristers but there are also a large proportion of the Young Bar who genuinely struggle to make ends meet and have to rely on the generousity of friends and family and / or bank loans just to make ends meet. I say that not as an attempt to garner pity as young barristers know the reality of the profession before they enter it but simply as an assertion of the facts of the matter.

+1. The younger puck is currently taking his barrister training course and hasnt actually got the time to do anything other than wipe arses in the old peoples home every saturday and sunday to earn his crust. That and the generousity of the parents is what is seeing him through.

[Minder]

I know a barrister that had a £15k overdraft for a fair few years and had to sell her house to get rid of the debt she was in.

[The Real Laoislad]

I still say it isn't rocket science, however its not really feasible for the average person to teach themselves law on the the off chance that they will someday have to represent themselves in court (thankfully most of us will probably never have to set foot in a court). Does that suddenly mean that someone in that profession is worth +£150 an hour, i don't think so.

Ah c'mon, I'm sure the vast majority of us could turn our hand to a lot of things if we were trained to.  That's what happens in the world - any old numpty could draw up their own accounts, fix their own car or cut their own hair (another point - hairdressers are often paid that amount or close to it!) but when something pops up that is slightly different from how it's been done before, the said numpty will be lost because they don't have a breadth of training to deal with the unknown. 

My hairdresser is paid about half the £150 but at the same time, the results of their work will not materially affect my life.  The same cannot always be said about a barrister's work.

I think I'll become a hairdresser....€75 an hour  nice work if you can get it

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

Of course you could waffle some stuff about the way of the world and how you to could train as one of the elite electricians and then you to could complain about only getting +£150 an hour 

or i could go and train at something that pays me sufficiently that I don't bitch about other people's wages- oh wait...

Thats your come back  You seem rather to have missed the point anyway, despite your rather tame attempt at a come back im not griping out of jealousy, im calling into question the notion that a self serving cartel such as the legal profession can hold the PUBLIC purse to ransom to the tune of over £150 pound an hour. Why because largely speaking they have autonomy over how many people can enter that profession at any one time, thereby negating market forces. If you are happy to see public money bankrolling this good for you.

I would suggest however that autonomy should be taken out of the hands of the various associations and societies representing the professions so that we could train as many of each as required for our/the general publics needs rather than the benefits/financial gain of the members of these professions. If that meant we trained more people in the legal profession to drive down costs and get cases through the courts quicker so be it.
If it meant training lots more dentists so that we all had ready access to dental treatment even if this made the career of a dentist a tad less lucrative so be it, etc etc.

If you can see any major flaws in this argument please feel free to point them out.

If you trained 100s of people every year in the legal profession the numbers would eventually dwindle down to current levels but there simply isn't enough work going around for the numbers at the minute never mind a huge influx. All your proposal would succeed in doing is costing hundreds of people thousands of pounds securing qualifications which eventually the vast majority will have to abandon as is the case in England where less than a quarter of new trained barrister, all whom who would have spent 5 figure sums in training, manage to secure a pupillage.

[delboy]

Of course you could waffle some stuff about the way of the world and how you to could train as one of the elite electricians and then you to could complain about only getting +£150 an hour 

or i could go and train at something that pays me sufficiently that I don't bitch about other people's wages- oh wait...

Thats your come back  You seem rather to have missed the point anyway, despite your rather tame attempt at a come back im not griping out of jealousy, im calling into question the notion that a self serving cartel such as the legal profession can hold the PUBLIC purse to ransom to the tune of over £150 pound an hour. Why because largely speaking they have autonomy over how many people can enter that profession at any one time, thereby negating market forces. If you are happy to see public money bankrolling this good for you.

I would suggest however that autonomy should be taken out of the hands of the various associations and societies representing the professions so that we could train as many of each as required for our/the general publics needs rather than the benefits/financial gain of the members of these professions. If that meant we trained more people in the legal profession to drive down costs and get cases through the courts quicker so be it.
If it meant training lots more dentists so that we all had ready access to dental treatment even if this made the career of a dentist a tad less lucrative so be it, etc etc.

If you can see any major flaws in this argument please feel free to point them out.

If you trained 100s of people every year in the legal profession the numbers would eventually dwindle down to current levels but there simply isn't enough work going around for the numbers at the minute never mind a huge influx. All your proposal would succeed in doing is costing hundreds of people thousands of pounds securing qualifications which eventually the vast majority will have to abandon as is the case in England where less than a quarter of new trained barrister, all whom who would have spent 5 figure sums in training, manage to secure a pupillage.

Read it again, it would do the exact opposite, if you were training people on the basis of NEED (independently decided) then you would only train up the numbers that are required, the  point of reckoning would be after the law degree but before the postgraduate studies so that  the numbers coming through the system was approxiamate to the number of pupillage positions specifcally so that lots of people didn't waste years of study and tens of thousands in the vain hope of getting a position.
The government itself could offer positions which actually paid people rather than leave them in debt with the understanding that people spend a certain amount of their early career in legal aid and that they continue to do a set amount throughout their career so that experience is not lost. This of course would require a massive change in the paradigm and present mindset.
If as you assert that there is already too many people chasing too little work (i can't say i agree with you though) then this would also address that problem, nobody is suggesting that those in the legal world be reduced to minimum wage after all.

[pintsofguinness]

You could really replace barrister with any number of professions.

Delboy, you lost the argument as soon as you said "it's not rocket science".

[JimStynes]

What about John Terry and these boys on 180k per week for playing football. Doctors get f**k all when you consider that their job is saving peoples lives.

[Rois]

I think I'll become a hairdresser....€75 an hour  nice work if you can get it

And that's a local hairdresser in Strabane - my sisters regularly pay £95 every six weeks, plus additional for special events, for a Belfast hairdresser. 

I dread to think what they charge in the south! 

[delboy]

You could really replace barrister with any number of professions.

Delboy, you lost the argument as soon as you said "it's not rocket science".

Thats rather the point im driving at if you if you look back on my posts on this subject, its actually even more pertinent for professions like dentistry etc which could certainly do with an influx of practioners.

I forgot you are the elected board arbitrer of arguements  i apologise to you for my arguement losing comment on 'rocket science', i promise to say 10 hail POGs as a penance for my transgressions 

[Maguire01]

Balls.  They will have worked no harder than any doctor or chartered accountant/architect/engineer who would never dream of charging anything like that. (Never mind 'withdraw services' because you were 'only' getting this)

You don't think a Senior Accountant would charge £150/hr?!

[Bogball XV]

Balls.  They will have worked no harder than any doctor or chartered accountant/architect/engineer who would never dream of charging anything like that. (Never mind 'withdraw services' because you were 'only' getting this)

You don't think a Senior Accountant would charge £150/hr?!

£450 odd wouldn't be an uncommon chargeout rate, whether they actually get that from the client is debateable and depends on the job.
Re barristers, in the south there are something like 1700 of them, at least a 1000 don't make a living from it, the next few hundred struggle by, another couple of hundred do quite well and the top 50 odd make huge money.
Re doctors, your normal gp in the south charges at least €50 per appointment, they spend 15 mins max per appointment, so say 3 an hour, that's €150 less costs, easily clearing €100. 
Consultants in the south make €220K from the state for a 35 hour week (of which 20% of their time can be spent carrying out private work), i'd say that's a pretty generous hourly rate too.

[Franko]

These are all valid points.

You seem to be forgetting, however, that it is only the barristers that are complaining that this rate of pay is not enough.

[tyssam5]

You could really replace barrister with any number of professions.

Delboy, you lost the argument as soon as you said "it's not rocket science".

Rocket science isn't that hard.
The other one people throw about is brain surgery, why the brain, they can't do much with the brain at all, nor do they understand it. When was the last time someone had a brain transplant?