woman dies for want of a abortion

[macdanger2]

A few points.

1) We had a scare when my wife was in the very early stage of pregnancy with my second child, we thought we may have lost him so had to go for an internal scan. Thankfully, there he was, all 9.7mm of him with his wee heart beating away. I am not religious, but to me a life starts at conception and that was the first glimpse of my now two year old. I understand the pro choice argument but it doesn't sit well with me that the child gets no choice. We do not have a referendum in the north obviously, but I am not sure which way I would vote if we did. The fear would be the abuse of abortion, but maybe that is irrational as some have noted above.

2) I think EUTHANASIA is actually a much bigger issue that needs debated more in society. Where is the pro choice lobby here? My father is 61 years old and has been suffering from Alzheimer's for 6 or 7 years. I use the word suffering purposely here as that is what he is going through. I am not saying that I think he should be Euthanised but he should have at least had the choice when he was compus mentis. I know for sure if it were me the decision I would make. If a dog, or cat, or horse is suffering we put it "out of its misery". A human has to live through the misery.

On euthanasia, one of the main reasons against is that making it available may create a climate which normalises euthanasia and may place pressure on older people to take that option. If it were to become available, it would need to be extremely well regulated and have sufficient checks in place.

On abortion, I find it difficult to see how some people can have such strong viewpoints one way or the other. It's an EXTREMELY complex issue and anyone who is 100% in one direction and dismissive of the other simply isn't engaging in an honest discussion imo

[Capt Pat]

I see two distinct groups but I'm wondering if there is another one.

The first are those who are pro-life for reasons linked to religious teachings. The second are those that think that the decision to have an abortion should ultimately lie with the woman that is pregnant.

Do any of you fall into any other category?

I don't care what the church has to say on this matter, I am against abortion. If the church came out tomorrow and said it was pro abortion I would be against them. It just doesn't sit well with me. Abortion is a tool of the nazis who banned abortion for aryan women and encouraged it for non aryan women and those it considered inferior.

[thebigfella]

I see two distinct groups but I'm wondering if there is another one.

The first are those who are pro-life for reasons linked to religious teachings. The second are those that think that the decision to have an abortion should ultimately lie with the woman that is pregnant.

Do any of you fall into any other category?

I don't care what the church has to say on this matter, I am against abortion. If the church came out tomorrow and said it was pro abortion I would be against them. It just doesn't sit well with me. Abortion is a tool of the nazis who banned abortion for aryan women and encouraged it for non aryan women and those it considered inferior.

Godwin's law has been invoke already. Well played.

[Eamonnca1]

But of course this is all academic because thousands of Irish women have had abortions by travelling to England. The only people benefiting from the 8th amendment are the airlines and ferry lines.

A lot of Irish people went to a lot of trouble to have the right to make different laws than England. No doubt you would have us just rejoin the UK.

Yes. That's precisely what I said. ~sarcasm

[Eamonnca1]

Ok, clarify for me why you stated that he said "a human life has begun at conception" when he clearly didn't?

I was agreeing with what he said, .... that life was present

I categorically did NOT use the phrase "human life." It's a misleadingly general term that is used by anti-abortion people. Nor did I say "life is present." That's another misleading term.

My point is about "sentient" life. A fetus in the early stages of a pregnancy is not sentient.

[Eamonnca1]

I see two distinct groups but I'm wondering if there is another one.

The first are those who are pro-life for reasons linked to religious teachings. The second are those that think that the decision to have an abortion should ultimately lie with the woman that is pregnant.

Do any of you fall into any other category?

I don't care what the church has to say on this matter, I am against abortion. If the church came out tomorrow and said it was pro abortion I would be against them. It just doesn't sit well with me. Abortion is a tool of the nazis who banned abortion for aryan women and encouraged it for non aryan women and those it considered inferior.

The Nazis also used petrol engines. Are you opposed to petrol engines?

[armaghniac]

I see two distinct groups but I'm wondering if there is another one.

The first are those who are pro-life for reasons linked to religious teachings. The second are those that think that the decision to have an abortion should ultimately lie with the woman that is pregnant.

Do any of you fall into any other category?

I don't care what the church has to say on this matter, I am against abortion. If the church came out tomorrow and said it was pro abortion I would be against them. It just doesn't sit well with me. Abortion is a tool of the nazis who banned abortion for aryan women and encouraged it for non aryan women and those it considered inferior.

The Nazis also used petrol engines. Are you opposed to petrol engines?

The Nazis did not have a unique relationship with petrol engines. You should have used Volkswagen as an example.

[Eamonnca1]

I just think it's a bit odd that you'd compare a pregnant woman who's life is at risk to a Nazi.

[omaghjoe]

Ok, clarify for me why you stated that he said "a human life has begun at conception" when he clearly didn't?

I was agreeing with what he said, .... that life was present

I categorically did NOT use the phrase "human life." It's a misleadingly general term that is used by anti-abortion people. Nor did I say "life is present." That's another misleading term.

My point is about "sentient" life. A fetus in the early stages of a pregnancy is not sentient.

Well if you had replied to my post instead of this current pedantic tangent youd find I had already replied to that... if it is associated with brain activity (and that is a big if) then that is present on week 5 of a pregnancy. Besides what form of life is not sentient exactly? even grass turns to face light after all.

Do you believe that a human embroyo is not "human life" or that "life is not present"? It contains human cells and DNA that will be present throughout the lifecyle as it grows to become an infant, child and adult. Im left wondering at what point would you consider "life to be present" exactly?

[Esmarelda]

I see two distinct groups but I'm wondering if there is another one.

The first are those who are pro-life for reasons linked to religious teachings. The second are those that think that the decision to have an abortion should ultimately lie with the woman that is pregnant.

Do any of you fall into any other category?

I'm pro repeal the 8th to allow proper legislation based upon medical/legal/etc... reccomendations. Whether I'm pro life or choice is irrelevant after that.

But by voting to allow proper legislation to be brought, are you indicating that you think the decision should lie with the pregnant woman?

I see two distinct groups but I'm wondering if there is another one.

The first are those who are pro-life for reasons linked to religious teachings. The second are those that think that the decision to have an abortion should ultimately lie with the woman that is pregnant.

Do any of you fall into any other category?

I don't care what the church has to say on this matter, I am against abortion. If the church came out tomorrow and said it was pro abortion I would be against them. It just doesn't sit well with me. Abortion is a tool of the nazis who banned abortion for aryan women and encouraged it for non aryan women and those it considered inferior.

Ok. But if the referendum is carried will you be overly bothered? Are you overly bothered that women travel to the UK currently for abortions?

[Esmarelda]

1 - In the early stages of a pregnancy, a fetus does not have a brain or central nervous system. It is not sentient. It's "alive" in the same way a blade of grass is alive. Applying the label "baby" to a fetus does not make it a baby and it does not make it sentient. People are entitled to a religious belief that from the moment of conception there is a magical mystical force that comes into being at the time of conception, but they are not entitled to enshrine that belief in law and impose it on everyone else.

2 - Someone needs a kidney to save their life. You're the only potential donor that can help. For your own reasons, you don't want to. Does a doctor have the right to forcibly cut you open against your will and extract your organ? No. Even if another life is at stake, it's your body and your decision.

But of course this is all academic because thousands of Irish women have had abortions by travelling to England. The only people benefiting from the 8th amendment are the airlines and ferry lines.

1. As you say a Human Life (not grass) has begun at conception. IF a brain is your base point then Brain cells are active at week5, for reference thats b4 morning sickness starts thats much earlier than the proposed 12weeks

2. If I grew a third kidney that my body was going to get rid off in a few months id be entirely cool with that

3. (Without trying to trivalise or demonise, for context only) Thousands of Irish people speed every day, should we get rid of speed limits?

But you are trivialising it completely aren't you?

[gallsman]

Abortion is a tool of the nazis

Well that's the end of any hope of reasonable discussion right there.

[Applesisapples]

I have to say I am conflicted on abortion. I am loath to impose my morality on another person whilst being ignorant of there circumstances. On the other hand I do believe life begins at conception. How would I feel about my wife or daughter carrying a rapists child though? Easy to decide when your not impacted. On balance though I'd probably side with pro choice with clearly defined rules. In this day and age there really isn't an excuse of accidental pregnancies and lifestyle terminations.

[Milltown Row2]

There may be no excuse for accidental pregnancies, but its happening at an alarming rate, more so in England than NI as the rate has fallen here....

some stats below showing figures of teenage pregnancies and abortions

https://www.fpa.org.uk/sites/default/files/northern-ireland-teenage-pregnancy.pdf

[rosnarun]

how many times in Ireland has it happened that a 'woman dies for want of a abortion ' since this thread started nearly 6 years ago?